BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: michaeljacknnugg on December 29, 2015, 12:01:00 pm
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Just going to blurt out what I've figured out so far and hope it makes sense!
He sleeps well at night, mainly because he's in with me. Last night I worked out that he has a very strong startle reflex and will sleep in his bedside crib - but only with holding through the jolts and through the transition between sleep cycles after every feed. I had him swaddled with his arms up, which seems to help a bit, but he really needs a hand on him. This means I'm awake to feed and then awake for the next 40minutes, which isn't sustainable. As I told DH through exhausted tears at 3am!
How quickly do they lose the startle reflex, and what can I do to help (apart from swaddle)? Having him in with me seems to modulate it so I'll continue that for a while, but I think I'll try him in his crib for the first part of the night when I'm not too tired.
Naps are extremely hit and miss. Some days he will skip several entirely, some days (like now) he'll want to snuggle in after a feed and sleep. He has a variety of nap locations (in arms, sling, buggy) and there is nothing that reliably will get him to sleep right now. It's just him deciding.
I'd like to have him nap in the crib once a day, ideally, and I'm happy to keep a hand on him to get him through the startles. At other times I'd like him to just stay asleep once he's gone off! He generally wakes as soon as we stop whatever it was that made him go to sleep.
If he's skipped a nap he seems to need feeding earlier. How much earlier is ok? I don't want to get into a snacking or feed to sleep situation as these totally throw things off for me.
DS1 screamed himself to sleep for all naps and bt (extremely stressful) so this is all new to me. I'm finding it tough going if I'm honest, I know he will regulate his own sleep but after DS1 I find naps to be a stress point for me.
Help!
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Part of the startle thing you just have to wait out, IME.
A lot of why DS woke in the early months (and still now at 4.5, TBH) was new sensory input. DS would wake if there was any new noise - we worked on that by showing him the source of every noise and showing how the noise-making thing was controlled. The gardeners looked at me like I was mad showing my tiny baby how the leaf blower turned on and off but once he'd spent 5 min seeing how it worked and that it was something someone was actually controlling, he slept through it every time thereafter. He likewise wakes if it gets windy or we walk past a new smell.
For naps - it really helped to have some tight hugs in the WD routine (often the only thing in the WD) to help him release some of his pent up energy, reduce OS, etc.
I found that DS' feed cues doubled as sleep cues - might be worth trying a nap when those feed cues happen? eg. early on, DS would miss a nap but want feeding after 1:45-2hr and I would feed but it increased my oversupply, compounded foremilk imbalance issues and terrible tummy symptoms for the poor little fellow and I wish that lightbulb had gone off earlier than ~4 months when he would literally latch onto my breasts through my shirt when he was tired. My only caution there would be that he's still pretty little and you want to make sure he gets fed enough. DS was unusual in his long gaps between feeds but it made a massive difference in that he started putting on weight when I spaced feeds with minimum 3hr between.
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He is definitely feeding enough, he's growing like a weed!
I am not really sure of his cues when he gets that tired, everything is just wrong, yk? I try everything else I can think of before feeding him. I'm not sure what else to do at that point and he does generally seem hungry by then - something else to suck will generally not be good enough.
What do I do about him breaking out of the swaddle?
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Oh yes, and do I just wait for a routine to settle in? Yesterday he had two short and two long naps and then wouldn't settle until 9pm, the day before he managed four very short naps and went to sleep at 7pm. Very different days!
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;D as you know I can't advise at ALL about sleep due to my 3 insomniacs....but what has REALLY helped me manage my anxiety around sleep this time round is 1) doing whatever it takes to get 1 good nap a day and 2) remembering that it's actually a fairly short period in their lives that they need naps at all. And all the things I used to REALLY fret about with the twins (45 min naps, etc) are a thing of the past.
I know, I know - I need to listen to my own advice! But I am eating Christmas shortbread on the sofa with a hot choc and feeling mellow.
Lots of hand holding, biscuits, tea, wine.....
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I reckon he's so little if you stick with EAS order (where possible, don't starve him if he won't sleep, of course), a routine should emerge eventually. I would definitely feed after sleep so associate waking up with feeding, it was very helpful for us but that's my experience with a sample size of one. Its pretty reasonable to be haphazard at the moment, he's still tiny and if he's anything like DS was, he's probably bug-eyed the whole time he's awake because the world is so interesting!
I swaddled on and off, I used it more as a sleep cue for DS than to dampen the startle reflex - he broke out of it and his reflex wasn't too bad once he got used to it, though when that was is hard to say, memory is a bit hazy on the details.
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Yes, I am generally feeding upon wakeup (where possible) and yes he is indeed bug eyed at everything! It's very cute.
He's started to give a few more sleep cues - getting chatty and cooing to us in an attempt to stay up longer is one. Just like his brother!
I've also discovered that he will sleep in his little chair if I rock it for long enough. If I catch him at the right point (tricky) and just sit and rock, the arms stay down and relaxed and the eyes fix onto something and he gradually nods off. I got one good nap and too partial ones like this in the last 24hrs and I think it's a start. At the very least it means I'm not holding him to sleep/feeding him to sleep, and I can also lie down and watch junky tv/snuggle with DS1 whilst doing it. That helps.
Tummy sleeping might be an option for him once he's older? I'll let him decide when he can roll over.
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Tummy sleeping might be an option for him once he's older? I'll let him decide when he can roll over.
Yep, DS was a tummy sleeper early on too. Plenty of moments of panic when he had his face straight down onto the mattress but I realised he was putting his forehead on the mattress and his little nose stuck out so he could breathe. After that I'd just put my hand on his back and feel the rise and fall to check for breathing.
The right point is indeed tricky, it will come easier as he gets older.
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Whilst this isn't helping you figure out DS2 as such :-[, can I just say REALLY not to worry too much about the means to sleep at this age? T slept in my arms, and mainly on my chest at night for many many months, and just slowly grew out of wanting that. These days he is stupidly and furiously independent about sleep - he will whinge, sign sleep, and expect to be thrown in his cot wide awake within mins ;D - true to his word he will then sleep. Now I can't get him to sleep unless he thinks it is a good idea ;).
But in the moment we had the short naps, the wide awake days, the sling sleeps and then '3 hour glued to the sofa' sleeps.
Equally I BF M to sleep until I weaned at 8 months. It was the only way to get a decent nap out of that one ::).
With all of my kids, simply by being mindful of what I wanted in the end, it really was all plain sailing from 6 months.
Young babies are just pests ;) ;).
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So you kinda waited and it just happened? That would be so nice!
He had a 6 minute nap this morning. Honestly!! Now he's asleep on me and I bet you I'll have to wake him to get out on time. Or maybe I'll just be late.
Young babies are indeed pests!
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With L, yes, at 4 months I did 4hr EASY by the clock for a few days and he fell into the routine really well (still with props for sleep) then at 4.5-5 months, once his routine was really solid and I could see his cues reasonably well, I did a couple of days of ST. That said, he did sleep in his cot all night every night from the very beginning, he was not coming into bed with us though he was in the same room for the first few weeks and then just across the hall from us.
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It's going to be a challenge to get him into his own bed, I think. For now I'll stick with having at least some naps outside our arms.
Last night started really badly, he just wouldn't settle and wouldn't feed (we've been cluster feeding). Must have been shattered as he'd been up for 6 hours by the time he did finally sleep. But then he only woke to feed once (went 10pm-3am) so he's been forgiven!
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I just have to say though - it is soooo lovely when he falls asleep easily in my arms :)
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It is rather lovely, enjoy those newborn snuggles!
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And it goes so quickly!!! I'm always trying to get the twins to cuddle me and they are just too busy!!
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I've just realised a few things today.
1. I think !he needs long A times but shorter (2.5hrs ish) periods between feeds, so that'll be a bit of a jigsaw.
2. He sleeps best when his hands are up near his mouth, and can't get out of that position. He also likes to be very warm.
3. I'm wondering if he would sleep best on his side - that's how he sleeps at night - but would need to work out how to keep him there.
So where does that get me, do you think?
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...and I've just managed to get him to nap (hooray!!) by putting him on my lap so his tummy is against mine and he can lie on his side whilst I pat him to sleep. An 'aha' moment when I realised that his preferred position is nearly identical to how he was positioned in the womb!
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No ideas.....but how cute!!!
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1. Could you give him little top ups before sleep times, do you think? Perhaps from the breast which was emptied most recently, so he doesn't get an overload?
2. Have you tried the Aussie swaddle? There's a link here somewhere, will have a look for it... Aha here it is! Swaddling Technique (aka "Aussie swaddle")
3. Don't want to officially advocate side sleeping due to SIDS risk which I'm sure you know about, but I know some parents use some kind of side sleeping positioners which stop them rolling over, I can ask around if no one pops on unprompted...
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Good ideas. Our EASY worked out as EAS EAEAS EASAES today (3 naps) which I'm ok with.
Not sure about swaddling- I've tried it and he doesn't seem too keen. The positioners I did take a quick look at but the SIDS risk does bother me. I'm happy with him on his side when I'm right there with him and think that might have to do for now.
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I had a really nice swaddle grobag for this baby - I didn't zip his arms into it as he hated it but it was really tight round his chest and I think he liked that. I have seen swaddle bags where their arms are swaddled up but he wouldn't be able to get to his mouth.
I love hearing about him - feels like ages since the sprout was that tiny!!
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What sort was it, do you know?
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http://gro.co.uk/gro-snug/pure-white-gro-snug
This one
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Ah yes, I looked at that but he's too big for it already!
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Did you try that swaddle up? I got one off eBay (but I have sold it on since), and it was a bit more 'relaxed' that a new one.
Thomas side slept mainly, without a support. I think they are more dangerous than alone really. More things to get trapped next to.
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Nope, not tried it yet...
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I guess though, in a few short weeks the hand control will come and you will be unswaddling anyway. I think I would prob just ride it out really (I'm pretty lazy though, and riding it out is often my default position :-[ :-[).
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I'm going for all the lazy options this time! Conserving energy for the important stuff 😀
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Exactly :) ;).
I have had 3 very different kids, and swaddling wasn't a huge help in any of them anyway really. I guess it helped Thomas most, but Jacob hated it, and Megan tummy slept. All 3 went through the short nap phase, and all 3 were 'walked' to sleep in the 2-5 month phase.
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L tummy slept while I watched him then when I went to bed, I just rolled him onto his back - would that work if you're concerned about side sleeping?
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Maybe, once I get an evening back. At present he is cluster feeding most of the evening and then snuggled in bed with me overnight (which is lovely, but I dread to think where it may get me! And what Tracy would have said).
The last couple of mornings I've been able to prop him on his side with some pillows and potter about getting dressed while he's asleep. That's a start, and a help.
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My little brother slept in my parents ' bed til he was about 3 (there are lots of us, and I think it was the only time he got any undivided cuddles!!). He doesnt any more!!. If cosleeping is right for you guys now, then embrace it!! nothing is forever and if it stops working out for you you can change it.
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As a bottle fed babe, Thomas didn't cluster feed (he just puked if I tried ::)), but he spent many many nights asleep in my arms, or next to me. I think I've said before - but I never really had any issue easing him into being more independent.
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How did you do it, Liz?
A couple more things have jumped out at me today:
- If you take the time to help him, he does eventually go down into a deeper level of sleep and doesn't need you there. It took me just over an hour of sitting with him, letting him suck my finger and patting him to be able to walk away. A long job! But then he slept for another twenty or so minutes on his own.
- My private midwife came yesterday to discharge me and we had a good long chat about sleep. He was getting tired so we tried a few things. Conclusion is that I'm not rushing in at all, but that he just really wants to be with someone and is making that clear.
- ...which leads me on to the awfulness that is car journeys right now. Fussing nearly as soon as we start, leading up to full on screaming whether we're moving or not. I've tried him at all different stages, fed changed slept etc, I've taken the insert out of the seat...nothing. It's breaking my heart. So today I put the radio on between stations and turned up the white noise for him and he stopped! I'd tried it previously and thought it made no difference, but the stuff on our baby monitor has gaps and it should likely be continuous. White noise app downloaded for home, for a trial.
Hope it's ok to keep writing this stuff down, if anything leaps out at you please let me know!
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Sprout hates the car. It's pretty much the only time he cries, which makes it particularly awful. He is much better if the twins are there and he can see them so maybe he is lonely? Have you tried one of those mirrors that are meant to let you see him? Could you angle it so he can see himself?
I don't know if babies as small as yours have those feelings, but if he is a bit of a cuddle monster maybe that would be the next best thing? Give him an extra snuggle from me, I love a baby cuddle!!
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I did wonder that but on thurs he screamed the place down even with DS1 desperately trying to entertain him/keep him happy. And he loves his big bro.
He's sending you a snuggle!
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Yk, life is such chaos with 3 kids that I can hardly remember ::).
Thomas was a super sleepy NB - until about 8 weeks I think - but he was prem and poorly so I guess that is why. Once he started waking up the usual chaos started. Only asleep in arms and short naps etc.
What did I do? Path of least resistance ;). Walk and rock him to sleep, then put him down (he side slept in a sleepyhead with white noise on - but AP'd to sleep first). Once a day I would either wear him, or sit and hold him for the whole nap. I always put him down for a short nap in the am as I needed to get the big kids ready for school, and by the afternoon he would take a long nap in arms. AT night I would get him to sleep in arms, and then he would end up in bed with me as the night wore on.
He did the usual really. At about 4/5 months the AP got harder. He would only short nap in the sling or arms by then, but the cot naps started to lengthen. Still put down asleep. He started to self soothe running his face into his muslin cloth, so if sleepy enough, he would nod off.
By 8 months he was sleeping in his own room out of the sleepyhead, I think I still bottle fed him to sleep at night at that point, but naps would have been independent. Routine is always the same - look tired - put in sleeping bag and throw in bed with a muslin cloth in his hands - put white noise on and leave :). And honestly this boy was in arms as a babe. He was def as independent as that by 8 months as that is when I went back to work and he was easy by then as Mum and Dad have him, and one of the 'deals' was that he has nice cot naps by then ;).
I think if you AP to establish the pattern it makes it much easier to sort it slowly, as their body clock is already set for sleep.
It is a very similar pattern to Jacob as well. He was independent from 6 months, but walked to sleep until then.
Megan hated the car. Screamed until she was purple every time. Even as a toddler she was fussy, and now as a kid never.stops.talking. Even at age 5.5 she still never sleeps. I guess the car is just not that relaxing for some kids.
I use an app on my phone for white noise. My Mum has a continuous CD. Thomas owns the iPad overnight as well. I used to use wit at night wakings when he slept with me if he was struggling to settle as well, and I would nod off as well.
I never had the patience to pat until a deep sleep etc. I would rather just hold them. I honestly believe that they just need us when they are young, and the rest can come later.
Thomas is still perfectly capable of screaming in the car, even with Jacob trying to look after him.
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I think if you AP to establish the pattern it makes it much easier to sort it slowly, as their body clock is already set for sleep
This here is the key, I reckon.
L screamed in the car for many reasons, initially because he couldn't see anything much, happier once turned around, but only for about 2 weeks before he refused to be restrained. Luckily I never really had to drive more than about 5-10min to get anywhere regularly and timed any longer drives to coincide with naps.
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Yep I am APing like mad!
I think we have discovered that the evenings where he just can't settle are major OT. So getting day sleep into him is crucial.
I revisited a couple of things and yesterday he slept in a new bouncy chair (different angle, vibrates, can be rocked as well) with white noise on next to him. Which is a big step forward - except that he clearly didn't get enough sleep (3x40mins ish) and was a monster in the evening. DH is convinced that we need to do less to get him to sleep so it's just me getting him to sleep now :( as he won't give him enough help to go off.
Anyway, car hell - there's no way round it really, he's in the car for school runs and trips to the yard. I can minimise trips, but nothing else.
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I guess you have to just ride it out (sorry for the pun!!). He sounds very attached to you which is so lovely! I only started putting this baby down to nap at 4 months I think (I prob wrote a thread about it!!) and he can self settle for nap and bedtime now (with his dummy, but that's another issue!!).
And all too soon he won't want to be held to sleep any more!! My big twin has been poorly again and fell asleep on DHs chest.....and I was SOOOOOOO jealous!!!
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Ps DHs are sometimes so unhelpful, aren't they?!? ;D my sleep training is constantly sabotaged!!
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Yes! DH is away right now and it's so nice to be able to follow my own plan. Which today seems to consist of feeding to sleep, but that's another story.
How do I work out how much sleep he needs? He only ended up with 9hrs max last night, had a couple of hours this morning (one in sling, roughly one at home after feeding) and then was grinning and chatting to me over two hours later. Seems to not need much sleep, but get ot quickly - how do I find the tipping point????
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Oh my, if I knew the answer to that I'd market it and be a millionaire!!! In my (limited) experience it's trial and error. When mine were tiny I would provide opportunities to sleep based on A times (usually buggy, sling, bouncy chair) and just see if they took it. Then once they are in more of a pattern you can ask people here about the tweaking! ;D at your DH - between yours and mine we would have a balanced babywhisperer!!! I complained one time that i had spent the whole night sitting up with a twin latched on each breast, and he asked me if it was a problem!!!!!!
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Just following along - I did lots of AP (specifically, sling) with DD, I did try for one cot nap a day plus settling in cot at BT, which was reeeeaally hard work but I think it paid off when at 4.5mo she was able to stretch her A times enough to get two cot naps in between preschool runs, and then the ST started for real. But I felt I knew roughly what to aim for by then, as she'd had her sling naps and I'd been able to work out approximate A times for her without worrying so much about OT/UT, as she was so much easier to resettle in the sling :)
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It seems that things are so variable right now that it's hard to work out what he needs :-\. Today we've had 1hr45 and 1hr15, both in the sling so his choice. The day before yesterday he went 3pm-6pm without a nap despite multiple opportunities, yesterday he slept off and on from 2-5pm.
Just keep watching him?
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Yeah, the sling's great :) I must admit I'd sometimes try to encourage sleep at particular times even in the sling, if I noticed patterns with good naps happening after certain A times. I'd also sometimes try not to let them sleep too early if I knew that would give a short nap. Around this age I think I also had to block out some of the visual stimulation in order for them to actually switch off.
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Yes, my sling has a hood but at this age he was still in a stretchy and I used to put my hand over his eyes or a light scarf.
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The sling generally helps - gives him the opportunity at least to sleep.
This morning he's done a 1hr45 and then a 45min A. After a good (11hr, two feed) night. Other days he will go much longer for that second A time. I don't get it, I really don't!
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Hi,
I'm not sure that you'll pick this message up, but I was just wondering how you got on and if you have any tips? You could be describing my DD2. She's 4 weeks and we're really struggling to get her to nap in particular, or sleep for a decent stretch at night (she seems to have one three hour sleep from around 10.30 and then anything after that is never more than and hour and a half). She'll nap well if cuddled after a feed and sometimes in the sling or buggy, but it's hit and miss. She really struggles to sleep past the initial 10 minute mark otherwise , if we're luck enough to get her to that point. (it doesn't matter what we do during that time, continue rocking etc, she just can't stay with it and the eyes pop open. Cuddles on the sofa are lovely and everything, but not very realistic or fair as I also have a nearly two year old. Sometimes she likes the sling, other times (like today) she screams blue murder when I put her in it and won't settle.
Thanks,
Sophie
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Hi,
Yes, he's nearly one now. Where did the time go? I will try to recap our year, briefly.
The first three/four months I did all naps in arms or in the sling. His best nap was when I was out and about, continually moving. Nights were hit and miss, but a lot easier once I'd worked out that he needed to cluster feed for hours in the early evening.
The four month regression made a huge difference for us. His startles faded, and he could stay asleep longer. I started to try to get him to nap in his crib, and by six months he would settle himself...until he outgrew the crib and transferred to the cot.
The evenings were still full of many wakings. Once we moved him into his room at around eight months, we could be more consistent with his wind down and this again made a big difference.
He's not much of a napper really. He often goes all day on one 40 minute nap, but then he does a decent stretch at night (12 hours, generally), so it works out ok. He has slept through but has lost that at present, so is up a couple of times a night.
Does that help? Hope it gives you some hope!