BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: BeeGuiles on January 06, 2016, 17:28:05 pm
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Hello, I have posted before asking for help on sleep...I got good advice but seems like things are just getting worse and worse. My LO is turning 16 weeks this saturday. When he was 2 months he was sleeping pretty good through the night only waking a couple times to eat, his naps were decent, then as he turned three months his naps changed to 30 mins for every nap unless I hold and nurse him the whole time and night sleep deteriorated. He was waking every 2 hours, then every 1 hour, then every 30-40 mins, now its basically every 1-2 hours again. He tries to stay asleep but he just ends up waking up and I have to put him back to sleep which can take up to an hour sometimes. He still only sleeps in his swing, I have tried to co sleep with him but still the same thing happens. His WU and BT are all over the place bc of all this. But generally he wakes up between 6-7 (used to be 7) and I try to get him to bed around 7-8 but he wakes up 30 mins later and stays up another A time, ends up having a meltdown and then goes to sleep for maybe 2-3 hours. After that he wakes up more frequently the rest of the night. I try not to always nurse him to sleep when he wakes, I try to rock him or pat his back but it doesnt always work. He will nurse to sleep but when trying to put him back in the swing sometimes he stays asleep, sometimes not, this process of getting him back to sleep can take 30-60 mins each time, sometimes less. Usually what I do is when he starts to stir, he rubs his head like crazy and so I gently hold his hands and wait till he settles back into a deep enough sleep where I can let go but it doesnt always work and when it doesnt and its been 2 hours or so I nurse him. I know he is going through a lot right now. Do I just go with it all and tough it out and it will sort itself out on it's own? Oh and his A time is about 1hr 30mins, I read it should be 2 hours at this age? But he seems to be tired and irritable before 2 hours. For naps I have to hold him and nurse him the whole time to get good naps, even holding him he will wake at the 30 min mark and I give him the breast to get him through, he will take a 1 hour nap, sometimes 1.5 hours. I really don't have an EASY bc Ive been so frustrated I just stopped keeping track and just going with the flow, living in the moment rather than stressing out about keeping a schedule all day. But I can try and put up what our day looks like..
6:00-7:00 wake up, eat
8:30is -9:30ish nap/nurse
11ish-12ish nap/nurse
1:30-2:30ish nap/nurse
4-5ish nap nurse
6:00 start bedtime routine, try to be in bed by 6;30-7...
this is a very rough example bc his naps vary in length and his wu and bt is always different..I try to keep it a 12 hour day and night but thing is lots of times he wakes up after bedtime 30 mins later and treats it as a nap and then ends up going to bed 8:30-9pm and he still wakes up at 6-7 am ,I think he treats that first morning nap as nighttime sleep but after a long night of NW I let him just get up at 6 or 7 bc he doesnt seem to want to go back to sleep anyways.
Any advice I would so appreciate. If I left anything out let me know and if I repeated myself at all, I apologize, trying to type this out with my baby in my arms. TIA
Brittany
P.S. Today he is not evening making it to the 1.5 mark before becoming verrry irritable. nothing is soothing him except nursing to sleep...I don't think he is teething, I dont see or feel anything but he is very drooly and sooo whiney!
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Hi Brittany, sorry for the delayed reply, we're a bit busy atm!
This sounds like the 4mo SR. Have you heard of it?
So does he sleep in his swing at night time too?
Yes ideally they should be on closer to 2hrs A at this age but that's not for all bubbas. We have to watch for the signs and try and gauge what works for them given their naps and night sleep.
Waking 30mins after BT I would definitely say that's OT. I would work on reducing that last A by adding more A time before the other two naps if you can. 1.5-2hrs A after a shorter nap might be just that tad too much.
Could you add on 15misn onto the other two A times for me, even 10misn would help I think. Also, could you pst what yesterday looked like in real time for me so I get an idea as to what's going on thanks xx
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Hello, Yes I have heard of the 4 mo sleep regression. This has been going on now since 3 months though. Sometimes he will sleep for 5 hours then be up every 30-60 mins from that point on. Is that typical for the 4 month regression?
He does sleep in the swing at night. I can not for the life of me get him to sleep in anything else besides the swing or my arms. Even him nursing to sleep in the bed and co sleeping he doesn't stay asleep. He still needs the motion I guess. Bc when I hold him I am also gliding in the glider.
Each day is so different with A times and naps. It seems like no matter how hard I try nothing is consistent.. I kept a log of his nap times yesterday so I can post those and in between obviously is his A time. The day before yesterday he coudln't stay up more than about an hour and 10-15 mins, then yesterday he would stay up for about an hr and a half.. idk why everyday is different. Maybe bc of differing amount of sleeping time.
Here is yesterdays naps.
5:50am woke up
Nap in car with daddy 7:50-8:20am ( he took him bc I needed to get some sleep and a break)
nurse and nap 9:30-11:00
awake 11-12:40
nurse nap 12:40ish-1:30pm
awake1:30-3:13pm
3:13-3:50 nap and nurse
awake 3:50- 5:30
nap and nurse 5:30-6:00
after that I forgot to write down what time he went to bed but I think it was around 9-9:30 bc he just would not go to sleep. I nursed him to sleep and he woke up after ten mins and would not sleep. Every night he is doing this now. He goes to sleep and wakes 10 mins later, I think it is from gas, so I help him work it out but he still does not want to sleep and cries and fights it so I let him stay up and try again later until he finally goes to sleep so I know he is not getting the proper amount of sleep at night bc every night he has a late bedtime (even tho I start the bedtime routine an hour after his last nap and the routine has been the same for a couple months) I start the bedtime routine sooner if he is acting tired or later if he is not acting very tired. Just go by what he looks and acts like basically.
So he went to bed around 9 or 9:30 last night and woke around 11:45, ate, I could not get a burp bc he fell asleep, then he slept I think until 4, took some time to get him back to bed again, like an hour. He was sleeping but took an hour before I could put him in the swing without waking. Then from 5-7:15 he would wake every 30 mins and need assistance back to sleep(gently held hands until he stopped moving around)
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Oh I forgot to say that the swing is the type that can sit up and recline laying back, so he isn't sitting up when he sleeps in it. He is almost all the way flat.
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Yes that is typical for the regression but I'd expect for it to be over with now considering it's being on so long. So onto plan 2... ;)
Ok, so he's not what we'd consider an independent sleeper really is he? Is that something you'd like to work on? I do think that's contributing to the NW's considerably.
If we get the A time right, I think we can encourage independent sleep, but it will take some time and effort on your part. I'm here to hold your hand. It won't be long until he can roll out of his swing and ideally we don't want the motion to continue being a prop for him in the months to come. How do you feel about trying the first nap of the day in his own bed if he has one? Just the first nap for now? Then in a couple of days we can try another one until finally we get to BT. I believe she routine is out of whack by the time you hit BT hence why he's so difficult to settle. Once we get the rest of the day on track I think it'll be easier to settle at night. Wdyt? Dyt you can try just that first nap for me for now?
One thing I have to say is that the A times are too low for his age. He may show you sleepy cues but they can become unreliable as they get a bit older so we have to keep one eye on the clock too.
What I'm unsure of atm is what length of first A to go with. The standard is 2-2.5hrs but as that first nap was in the car on the routine you posted, I'm not too sure if that would have yielded a longer nap if he weren't in the car yk?
I might try 2hrs 15mins A. So go into his room (or yours if the bed is set up there) and establish a wind down routine. Even if it's just a nappy change, song, cuddle and straight into bed at 2hrs 10mins. Then I would use ssh/pat to calm him if he gets upset. I'll post some links for you to have a read through. All of this will take some effort as he may prefer just a hand on him rather than a pat, or even a longer wind down routine. But you'll best gauge this as time goes on. Wdyt? Xx
Eta have you introduced a lovey at all? Now would be a good time to do so if we're switching up his bed. I'm a big fan of a lovey. If you carry it around you and make it smell like you too, it will help him in the night time x
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Shush-pat - How to
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No he's not an independent sleeper. He has needed me to get him to sleep since day one and I have tried to get him to fall asleep on his own but he just doesn't. I lay him down drowsy but awake and he just cries. :( He gets so worked up about it..
So even though he yawns, rubs his eyes and gets irritable after only 1.5 hours or so I should keep him awake 2-2.5 hours? Wouldn't that just make him OT? I think he gets sleepy so quick bc of poor night time sleep or not enough sleep at night.
I am just so nervous to try and get him to nap on his own bc he has only ever napped in my arms or the swing and putting him in a stationary bed is so forgein to him, last time I tried he screamed and screamed until I picked him up and as soon as I put him down he screams again. Not like a whine or fuss, like a constant emotional cry. It doesn't sound like a protest cry to me. So I just have been letting him sleep however I can get him to sleep but yes I do agree he is going to be rolling soon and I do not want him to fall out of the swing..
I have a little monkey thing he seems to like and I try to give it to him when he is in the swing for nap. He holds it for a moment but doesn't seem to care much but I will continue with it.
If I try with the first nap and he gets very upset, how long do I try to get him to sleep in his bed until I give up and just nurse him to sleep and hold him like I normally do? I don't want to spend forever fighting with him to sleep in his bed and make him miss out on a nap and then get him OT and really cranky.. Do I try for a certain amount of time? If he gets very upset do I pick him up and calm him down. Even if I have a hand on him or pat him while he is laying down he gets upset about it. He doesn't like to be on his tummy either or his back lol, he just plain doesn't like to sleep unless he is snuggled in my arms with his milk :/ I would like for him to be an independent sleeper but I was thinking he just is not ready for it yet and he will learn to sleep on his own in time? Some say that is true while others say you have to teach them, so I have no idea really. I just want him to get some sleep so I do whatever I can to help him get the sleep he really needs.
Thank you also for your help and being here for support/answering all my questions! :)
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I just read the shh/pat, one more question, he doesn't like to be swaddled. Do I have to swaddle him? I guess I could try it and see what he does but ik he hates to have his arms constrained. Can I use a white noise app instead of my shushing? He uses the white noise app tight now to help him fall to sleep and I actually have it on all night long, even tho it doesn't keep him asleep but if I were to turn it off he would wake up.
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I would try and get as close to the 2hrs as you can. the problem is that this is a sticky situation because the night sleep won't necessarily improve until the naps are better. Definitely try closer to 2hrs than 2.5 at this stage and we'll see how that works.
no you don't need to swaddle at this age now. You can also use white noise, but your presence and your words will help soothe him too.
I'd give it 30 mins before you give up. Even then i might take him out of the room, walk around with him for 10 mins, then try again if you can?
it will be tough for a little while as you're changing the way he's always been taught to go to sleep, but it will get better. Many people have more success with the first nap of the day hence why i suggested that one first. It's totally up to you if you decide to sleep train. it does involve som crying because as I mentioned you're moving the goal posts on him. The diffence with our methods is that you're there with them so they won't feel abandoned compared to some other methods. Personally, i don't feel that they learn to sleep on their own unless you do something about it. they only learn what we teach them. If that's they do to sleep on the breast, then naturally when they wake up from a sleep cycle they will wonder where you have gone if laid down. During the night has the same thing too. Let me know what you'd like to do and we'll take it from there :) xx
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Thank you :) the night before last we got him to two hours for the last A time before bed fine and he went to bed good and slept pretty good that night. So yesterday I tried having the A time 2 hours or closer to 2 hours and when it cane nap time he slept very restlessly, he was still in my arms nursing for the naps. So I'm thinking it was too long for him and he was too tired. So the second half of the day I got him to sleep for a nap after about 1.5 hours A time and he went to sleep faster and more easily and slept better.. But he was up every 2 hours or less again last night vs the night before he slept much better, by better I mean maybe three or four hours at a time. He stirred s couple times and didn't really need me to get him to sleep, woke twice to eat. I gradually increase the A time? We are at 1.5 hr now seems what he is good with. Should I add ten mins or so each A time or add ten mins for one day then ten more mins the next day? Not sure how to go about it. We do have to get him to sleep somewhere other than that ... My hubby agrees. When I am ready I'm gonna try what you said I think and see how it goes. One thing is, my house is pretty bright with natural lighting BC of a lot of windows and my room I'd a loft so I have no way of blocking out the light to make the room dark and that is where he sleeps. I don't want him to sleep in another room so I'm concerned that the light will not help him to sleep but he does sleep there in my arms now, so idk.
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I tried for the first nap today and it was a fail :( I modified it to how I think it might work for him but it didn't seem to work out.. After about 1.5 hours or 1 hr 45 (when he showed he was clearly tired) I brought him to the bedroom, walked around patted his back with the soft music on for a little bit to calm him down, then I decided to nurse him to get him a little more relaxed and sleepy, the plan was after he was more sleepy to then place him in the cot and do the sh/pat. Put him in the cot and he cried. Gave him a pacifier to calm him down a bit, gave him lovey. Those things didn't matter, he kept crying. I kept up the sh/pat but he kept crying badly, I picked him up and calmed him and laid him back down and the same thing happened, picked him up (took a little bit for him to calm down) this time he started to close his eyes while I was holing him so I laid him down in the cot but kept him in my arm and patted his back then gently took my arm away, kept patting for ten mins, he was sleeping (he had the pacifier) after 10-15 mins he woke up and cried, tried to pat back to sleep, didn't work. Picked up and again he fell asleep in the arms just about, laid him down still in my arm and patting back he was opening and closing his eyes so he knew where he was, he finally closed the eyes and so I took my arm away gently and kept patting but again after a little bit he woke up crying again...this all took an hour and he still wasn't sleeping so I gave in and nursed him to sleep and held him for about an hour then he woke bc I was upset with myself and started to cry while holding him... I feel like I messed him up and he will never learn to sleep on his own. :(
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You haven't messed up whatsoever, please remember that. this is a process and will take time. It sounds like you've done everything right hun :-*. Tomorrow is always another day, repeat that to yourself. It's a pretty lonely time fighting with your bubba for them to get some sleep and you're trying everything you can. Thats what i'm here for, t support you from afar. I can only apologise for not being as prompt today as it is my birthday and been pretty hectic ::).
I love your idea of a wind down routine,t hat sounds lovely. He is used to movement, so i'm not surprised he woke up so quickly. What did happen is that you got him to sleep! That's amazing. I wonder if we could look at a slightly softer approach for you for the time being? Have you heard of Pantley's removal? I'll post a link for you. I don't have much experience with it, but it has worked for lots of people on here. I would still try for that first nap in bed tomorrow but with this slightly adapted method and using ssh/pat simultaneously. WDYT?
WRT A time, we do know he sleeps btter having longer A time in the day. Your routine wasn't very stable before, but if you feel you're generally working on 1.5hrs A, then what we do is increase by 15mins and hold for a few days. Do you think you could try that like you have been doing?
Honestly, you're doing really well. Have a read of this link for me and let me know what you think. I'll be around more the rest of this week witout silly birthdays getting in the way ;) xx
Gentle Removal Plan
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Happy birthday! :) No need to apologize, you have your own life too.
Yea the no movement and not being in my arms is what gets him. He wanted to sleep but he wants to sleep in my arms being rocked. Once he falls asleep on the breast I can usually remove the nipple and he will accept that and swallow his milk and snuggle up tighter to me but then once he gets thru that sleep cycle he needs to suck to keep on sleeping. So idk if the gentle removal still applies here?
I don't feel like I accomplished anything bc he basically still fell asleep in my arms when I picked him up to calm him down. He wasn't in a deep sleep of course which is why he woke up 5-10 mins after being in the cot. I'm wondering if I should not have nursed him at all bc maybe he got frustrated that he was nursing a bit, falling asleep then I interrupted his comfort and put him in a flat stationary bed? Should I not even nurse him at all and just try to lay him down and shush/pat? Then PU/PD if he gets rlly upset again?
For A time, so instead of 1.5 hours, do 1hr45mins for a few days? Today he is getting real tired at 1.5 hrs, prlly bc of crappy naps. He did last two hours for one A time today bc we had to go out and do things, He didn't act very tired or fall asleep in the car. He is so strange, sometimes he wants to slee after an hour, sometimes 1.5 and sometimes 2...puzzles me..
also our bedtime routine involves a bath, its been like that for several weeks but his skin seems to be getting dried out, hubby thinks its the every night bath (we do oil him up also) so hubby doesnt want to do bath every night. i'm worried it will mess up bedtime more? My hubby says he doesn't think it will matter since he has trouble going to bed anyways.. I feel like bedtime improved the past two nights. Last night he woke an hr after bedtime, night before I think he slept a long stretch before waking. One thing I did change for bedtime is I made homemade gripe water. My little guy gulps air when he nurses sometimes and gets trapped gas bc he doesn't burp when he is sleepy or sleeping so when he stirs in the night, I think he fully wakes from tummy pains also so going back to sleep by himself rlly doesnt happen.. but I gave him the gripe water for two nights now, 1st night was great improvement. I even saw him stir but not wake all the way up. but last night he still woke a lot. Not every hour but every two hours. Thought I would mention that as a factor too.
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i'll pop back later as giving DD breakfast, but bath every night is ok, but some find not to use the bubble bath every night helps with the drying out of the skin. So just use warm water? I'm a big fan of a consistent BT routine, but many have found a bath every other day works well too.
Yes, i'd try 1hr 45mins especially for the first A. If the first nap is particularly rubbish, you could try 1.5hrs for the second one and see if he's easier to settle? We like to reduce the next A after a short nap slightly, but not by much as it could lead to what we call a UT/OT loop whereas they constantly go down for naps UT, but then get OT by the end of the day.
I think the idea with the gentle removal is to try and get him to sleep at least one sleep cycle in bed. So t is a gradual process of detaching him earlier and earier as the weeks go on. Unfortunately there's no quick fix, it just all takes time. But it will get better, i promise. :) xx
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Okay :) its been a long night here. Its now 5am and I've been up since 2. He went to bed at 9 BC he wouldn't go to sleep for bed :( hes been sleeping the whole time but I've been up helping him thru every sleep cycle (every 30 mins)
anyways, yea we do just warm water for most baths but he still has dry skin. Might have to get better lotion or something.
hopefully he goes back to sleep here until 7 and we can get a fresh start today. :)
I see, so the point is to get him to not need to nurse in order to fall asleep with the gentle removal so O can get him to fall asleep in the bed. I feel like at night he still needs two feedings and he always falls asleep to those..
praying the first nap doesn't go so terribly today as it did yesterday.. Thank you so much for the support :)
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This is how this mornings first nap went. He ended up waking up for the day at 6:25, so first nap was at 8:10. I went to take a shower and when I got out LO was upset and crying, it was ten mins before naptime so for wind down I was just calming him down, he didnt want to be carried and patted like normal so I nursed him to calm him till he was closing his eyes, burped him bc he had gulped air and tried to lay him down, he got very mad, crying, so picked him up to calm, he wouldnt calm so I nursed him for a few more mins till he closed his eyes then tried to lay him down again. Gave him the pacifier when I laid him down to keep him calm, this was at 8:12. He stayed there with his eyes closed and no crying! Had the white noise on too. I patted his back and kept a hand on him until 8:37 bc he was still moving a little bit, he was in light sleep. Took hands off and stopped patting at 37 and he stirred again at 45, so went back to pat and give back paci and he stopped moving until 55 and then he opened his eyes and woke up (I was still patting) but he didn't cry. He just looked around and was grabbing at his lovey... SO.. it went better. Is it normal for me to be patting or having a hand on him almost the whole time tho? He was only in a deeper sleep for about ten mins it seems.
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We can definitely look at that later on. Ideally we don't want the patting to turn into a prop also. If he's not crying I might consider lessening the pressure slightly, or even stopping, see how he goes but keeping close by to resume it if needs be? This is honestly a great improvement. I'm just sorry the nights are rough atm. Did we check for teething as well?
For dry skin, aveeno is amazing. I think they prescribe it over the counter here for those with excema so you shouldn't have to use it often.
And yes, the idea is to gradually put him down more awake over the next couple of weeks. Are you up for trying that for another nap as well now? How are the other naps going in the meantime? An easy in realtime and how you settled for naps and BT will be great to keep a record of if you can? xx
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You're right I don't want the patting to become a prop but when I don't pat he wakes up and he does cry if I don't pat. If I put him down more awake right now he cries until I either pick him up (which he will even still cry when I am holding him) or until I nurse him almost to sleep. He does not seem to calm down in the cot at all right now.
I don't see any teeth but he drools a lot and puts everything in his mouth and I see him chewing on his pacifier also sometimes.
The second nap today wasn't very good, was about 45 mins as well and he was even in my arms nursing and it still was shorter than normal.. The A time before the 2nd nap was 1.5 hours bc the first one was so restless and short. He woke up cranky from the 2nd nap and he is going on an hour awake now and is seeming irritable and getting tired again. idk if I should put him down in 30 mins or do the 1hr45m this time...
I feel like if I try to make him nap in the cot for two naps he will become OT bc he doesnt get good sleep in there yet. What do you think? When would be a good time to try for the second nap? Should I wait until he is able to take a good nap in there for his first nap?
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Yes I am trying to write down the duration of the naps/times and how I settled. I can keep better track now again I think. I kind of ditched keeping track of everything bc it overwhelmed me and discouraged me that everything was always messed up bc of his short naps etc. But I will try and keep a log of everything.
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How did te rest of the day go? Would you mind posting it on here for me when you get him to sleep?
Let's concentrate on getting him to sleep in the cot. So, to recap we're using gentle removal where you nurse him until drowsy. You're then putting him into bed and using ssh/pat. this is all great so far. All these things we can look at reducing over time. We're just taking the softly softly approach. When you look back on this thread, you'll be amazed how far you've both come in a couple of weeks ok?
Short naps happen, we were plagued with them for 8mths until i found his site. Please don't worry too much about them. They didn't do my DD any harm in the long run. At least there's always the next nap to try for!
I still think that second A was too short. 45mins is definitely UT especially considering that's where he's used to sleeping so that tells us something too, all good stuff. I probably would consider trying 1hr 45mins now even after a cr@ppy first nap. wdyt? Remember he may get more OT as the day goes on so you could well try 1.5hrs A before the last nap.
Yes, let's crack this first nap first. I don't want to overwhelm you either ;). We'll get there xx
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Here is my EASY for yesterday and the NW as well.
6.25am wake up
E - 7ish am
A - 6.25-8.12
S - 8.12-8.55
E/S 10.25-11.10 (Nursed and napped in arms)
E - 11.45
A - 11.10-1.13
E/S - 1.13-2.40 (in arms again)
A - 2.40-4.25
E - 3.00-3.11
E/S - 4.27-5.12
A - 5.12 -
Bath at 6.12, pjs, oil from 6.27-6.42 also wind down
nursing from 6.42-7.00
7.00 asleep for bed, put in swing at 7.15
NW - 8.00, would not go back to sleep without nursing, back in swing at 9.00
10.30 stirring, needed help to settle down, held hands while in swing and he settled, never fully woke
NW - 11.40, crying, trapped gas, had trouble getting it out, nursed back to sleep, back to sleep by 12.55
NW - 3.35, cried, seemed hungry again, nursed, back to sleep in swing by 4, slept until 6am and woke up for the day
First nap today went okay. Woke up at 6, fed at 6.30, started to wind down around 7.40, nursed for a few mins, laid in cot and shush/pat for a few mins, by 7.55 hands were off him he was asleep with pacifier and white noise. Stayed sleeping until 8.28 and woke up, he couldn't get through the REM sleep. I did nurse him down again. He just will not settle in the cot. I have to nurse him for at least a few mins till eyes are closing then lay him in the cot again, he started to cry in the cot until I gave him the paci, then he let me roll him to his side and pat till he was sleeping and then I stopped, only patted a few mins vs I patted almost the whole time. There is progress but he still is not going to sleep on his or making it thru a sleep cycle. But he isnt in the swing or my arms...
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Yay!!! This is much better, dyt? Technically he is going to sleep in the cot, not on you. This is definitely heading in the right direction, well done :)
I still think the A time might be a little short but if he will go back down it might be that we're close. I'd hold that first A at 2hrs again tomorrow and see what happens. It might be from the next day we add on another 10mins.
Lt me know how the rest of the day goes xx
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The first A time was about an hour and 45 mins, do you mean increase it to 2 hours? He took a short nap and wouldn't go back down when he woke up, he never goes back down once he wakes unless I nurse him back to sleep.
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Yea he is sleeping in the cot even if its for a short time so that is good. Today I tried for the second nap and he slept in the cot for the second one also for 30 mins. Still had to nurse him almost all the way down though. I think the rest of the naps will have to be in my arms BC I don't want him to get OT by the end of the day.
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EASY for yesterday:
6.00 wake up
E 6.30
A 6-7.45
S 7.50ish - 8.28 (in his cot, nursed him until almost asleep, would not settle any other way)
E 8.47
A 8.28 - 10.00
S 10.17 - 10.49 (in his cot, same as above, he fought it a little more this time)
E 11.11
A 10.49 - 12.24
E/S (nursed to sleep and nap in arms) 12.24 -2.05
E (make sure he is full, was a short feed) 2.20ish
A 2.05 - 3.55
E/S (meant to have nap 5 - 10 mins sooner but a stomach cramp came on me suddenly and had to use the bathroom, yuck) 3.55-4.50 (nursed to sleep and held)
A 4.50-6.35
Bedtime routine 6.00 - 6.35
Tried to get him to go to bed right after bedtime routine but for some reason he fought going to bed, he nursed till he was full and was dozing off then he fought sleep and nothing would settle him, finally he comfort nursed to sleep and fell asleep at 7.10. I treid the A time before bed of 1h45m and he was fighting sleep so I quietly read a book with him thinking maybe he is UT, but even at the 2 hour mark he fought sleep and he was rubbing his eyes, yawning etc. He fell asleep at 2h20m mark and then he woke up about 30 mins later. Idk why bedtime was an issue...
NW 7.30ish, would not settle, had to nurse to sleep
NW 10.35-11.00 nursed to sleep
NW 11.40 (was not hungrry and he even fell back to sleep on his own for a few mins but woke up again, tried to settle but he wouldnt go back to sleep, nursed back to sleep, then it was 1.50..
2.30 stirred didnt wake turned up white noise
3.30 stirred didnt wake turned up the white noise
NW 4.50 nursed back to sleep
6.00 wake up and dad took for a ride to get coffees and he fell asleep from 6.30 - 7.40
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Sorry for all the posts, just wanna make sure you are up to date on whats going on here. Todays first nap was a very short one. Still could not settle him without nursing. I brought him to the room at 9.16, went to walk around and pat his back to wind down and he kept whining and trying to suck my face so I nursed him a few mins then tried to lay him down, he started to doze off when patting but then woke and started to cry and not calm down so I picked up and patted and he still was crying and fussy, so nursed again for about three more mins, he was dozing off so laid him down with paci and patted and he fell asleep the rest of the way (was now 9.30) and woke up at 9.48, tried to pat back to sleep but he was just talking and wanting to play, tried to nurse to get him sleepy again but he was just awake, not gonna go back to sleep. Will try again for the next nap..
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It's really great to keep me posted, don't worry. :)
Ok, so we know now that 1hr 45mins might be too much A before BT for him. Especially after a short nap. My DD always liked a shorter last A time too. Let's bring that one back to 1.5hrs ok? See, we're learning something new every day aren't we? It may be that after a day of shortish naps, he just prefers a shorter last A. All good.
What A time was that first nap on today?
What I can also see is that he took a great nap on you after 1.5hrs after two crappy naps. Hmmm, let me get some more eyes on this for you as well xx
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1 hour and 45 mins before the first nap today. 7.40-9.25. First two naps today were rlly crappy. Less than 30 mins in the cot. The second one he did the same as the first, woke up after a short time and wouldn't settle in the cot, so I nursed and held him to get him to sleep longer and he slept an hour longer in my arms. I'm getting discouraged BC he isn't rlly learning independent sleep since he wont settle in the cot at all, I'm trying to nurse him for less time before putting him in there but if he isn't sleepy enough from nursing he just gets all upset and I have to nurse him some more before laying him down. Seems like I'm just nursing him yo sleep just about and then putting him down... I'm frustrated BC I want him to sleep good and I want to be able to do things like eat and have some time to myself in the day but its impossible right now. I'll do a shorter A time before bed and see what happens. I'm just confused BC he had a longer A time before for bed and it seemed to help get him to bed but then last night he fought it. I'm exhausted :( thank you so much for all your help also!!
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I have no idea why but he fought the last nap today, A time was 1.5 hour BC I knew he was already tired from crap earlier naps, he had to take a ride in the car to fall asleep and he MAJORLY fought BT. Should have been to bed by 7.30, 1.5 hr A time but he fought it until passing out around 9.15... He just kept screaming and Nothing would settle him, he wouldn't even nurse. I'm so beyond frustrated tonight and in tears :(
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Hugs, just dropping in with some support and some extra thoughts. It's a rubbish age for sleep, super-frustrating is just about standard I would say ::) but having btdt and really struggled first time round especially, I would say you must look after yourself :-* do you have help? Are you getting any you time?
For LO I'm not sure how much you've considered the possibility of discomfort? (Sorry I haven't read everything back in detail). Teething is less likely to cause issues for so long but you mentioned dry skin - how bad is it? Could it be itchy and bothering LO? What about (silent) reflux? Particularly poor sleep and wanting to nurse a lot can be symptoms - Reflux 101 - General reflux information
If you are confident none of those are issues, then I think this may well be a sleep training issue and you may just need to change your approach slightly. First of all (and please understand I'm not judging, I really get it :-* ) I notice you've said a few times how scared you are of OT. Having helped lots of people through the forums and gone through it myself I think this is almost the biggest mental barrier to sleep training successfully. What happens is when we get scared of OT we prioritise LO getting to sleep over how it happens - now there is totally a time and place for that, I will rock and cuddle my LOs or sit with them until they sleep when unwell for example, but when you are trying to change the way a LO goes to sleep then it is counter-productive as all you end up doing is teaching that 'if I protest long and hard enough nothing has to change'. And that's not fair to you or LO.
Second I think consistency and trying all naps the same way may actually help you now. I totally agree with Kelly that starting with one nap and then making progress from there is often the way to go, particular with younger babies, but as they get older my feeling is more opportunities to learn is less confusing and you will likely see quicker results. I would try for the two main naps of the day (I'm assuming you are on 3 naps?) in the same way in the cot, and then if it's all been horrible by all means AP a quick catnap in the late afternoon but crucially not by using the props you are trying to break - so not nursing to sleep. I would do a walk in the pram or a car drive instead.
I wonder whether it might help you to write out your plan for settling LO? I know you've been going with gentle removal but I wonder whether you need to either (a) give yourself some clear steps for moving forwards with that or (b) go for a different technique all together e.g. PUPD. Gentle removal can be good but the key is to keep moving forwards as it's easy not to when LO shows signs of protest. You need to push a bit otherwise nothing changes if you see what I mean? At this age I think nursing to very drowsy might be a step too far, it's not really independent sleep and the goal which I would be moving towards reasonably quickly is putting LO down in the cot fully awake. Now I appreciate that's scary, and yes LO will get OT - but that's where a clear plan and the end goal really help. It's impossible in the heat of the crying baby (and mummy) moment to make a clear-headed decision about what to do. But having it written out in front of you can just give you that encouragement to keep going.
Personally I haven't got experience with gentle removal for nursing and if I'm honest I'm probably more of a 'rip the bandage off' kind of person ;) so if you wanted to try a different tack altogether I'd be happy to help you with a PUPD plan. It would likely involve more crying (obviously with you there throughout) but may yield results quicker.
Let me know your thoughts x
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Hi Jessmum, Thank you so much for your support and advice. My husband helps me as much as he can but really it does not help me feel much better. He just plays with Titus so I can take a shower, bath or eat or maybe sleep for an hour in the morning. No help with sleep for the baby besides an occasional car ride. He does the best he can tho.
I really don't think he is uncomfortable other than the trapped gas which I always try to get out and he wakes fully when that is the case and has a very hard time going back to sleep,so ik when that is the problem. The dry skin is always lotioned up before bed really good so I dont think that is it and I am pretty sure he doesnt have reflux but I will read the link just to be sure.
Yes I am afraid of OT bc he is so miserable when he is OT and so inconsolable.. He gets wired then crashes but crashes without sleep, he jst screams. My hubby and I tried for one night to just lay him down awake and be there with him, comfort him, but it was so awful and for two hours he SCREAMED. This really screamed to the point where his little body started hiccuping and trembling and it would startle him and throw him into another screaming fit. When I would pick him up or hubby would he would not calm down in our arms. Just keep screaming. Finally I picked him up and he passed out in my arms... so I am terrified of that happening again... He rlly just won't sleep at all without nursing, ik nursing to drowsy is a prop also :( This all just sucks and I am not dealing with it well at all. I had a huge meltdown last night and was crying for a long time.. and was up every hour last night. The LO woke fully twice to eat but all the other times he just needed a firm hand on his to get him to not wake up fully and get to deeper sleep again.. I just really doubt he will ever sleep without nursing and it makes me upset and feel like I will not be sleeping again for a long time :(
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Sorry, my first reply was rushed and I forgot some things. Right now it depends on how his naps are on how many he has. But he has been having 4 naps I think. The first two have been crappy, the third is usually okay when it is in my arms nursing, the fourth the same and then BT.
See even with two crappy naps for a couple of days he must have got OT by the end of the day and fought the last catnap and fought BT massively and it ended up with me a wreck and my husband and I snapping at one another until eventually we put the baby in the swing for like the millionth time and he finally settled down to the music and drifted off to sleep (bc he was so tired from all the screaming prior to falling asleep) I tried nursing him to sleep like normal and he even would not nurse to sleep last night so he must have been very OT to refuse that and refuse to go to sleep altogether. That is why I am so scared of him being OT bc he really fights and fights hard and I can't seem to stay calm at all which I know makes it worse. But idk if I am going thru depression or something but I just can't seem to handle it and I get angry and anxious and I take it out on my hubby when he takes the baby to give me a break, I criticize him for everything he is doing to try and get him to sleep bc he just lays him in the swing and lets him cry while he sits next to him..and I can't do that, I have to pick him up and at least try to comfort him even if he is still screaming in my arms, at east I know i am doing something to try to comfort him rather than leaving him to scream. My hubby also tried the cot last night (which I got mad at him for bc I knew he would scream in there) but my hubby thought well he is screaming anyways, might as well put him in there. but he did scream and did not stop and just kept getting louder.
Honestly I am at a loss. I know I am part of the problem and maybe I have taught him how to fight it so hard but he is only 4 months old...it's not like he is a year old so I didn't think it would be this hard to try and get him to sleep without the swing or the breast. :( I am here home alone with him all day and I am afraid I can not handle trying to put him down for all the naps in his cot without nursing him..That is why I have been nursing him to drowsy and then putting him down, otherwise he screams and moves around so much that I can't even pat his back in there. So I pick him up to calm him but he doesn't calm for that either. Just nursing, unless he is OT, then nothing calms him.
I am at a loss, idk what to do, I feel like my hands are tied and I just have to sit with him napping and nursing on me :(
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Here is my EASY for yesterday also:
6.00 wake up
He then took a car ride with dad so I could sleep and they went to get coffee and things, he fell asleep from 6.30-7.30 hubby said (prlly would have been part of his night sleep if I got up and nursed him back to sleep again)
E 7.55
A 7.40 - 9.25
S 9.28 - 9.48 (in the cot, again had to nurse to drowsy to even get him to sleep in there)
E 10.33
A 9.48 - 11.30
S 11.30- 11.56 in the cot (same as above) then I nursed him back to sleep and held him so he could get some more sleep, would not settle or sleep in the cot again, slept from 11.56 - 12.50
E 1.15
A12.50 -2.35
E/S 2.35 - 3.15
A 3.15-5.20
S He would not settle and take a last catnap before bed, he didnt even want to nurse to sleep so hubby took him for a car ride and he slept 5.20-6.00
A 6.00-9.15 (at the 1.5 mark or before that rather I tried to settle him down for bed, did bath and bedtime routine etc but he just was not going to bed. He would not nurse to sleep, not patting, not shushing, not swinging, nothing....he just screamed until we brought him downstairs and then he would be happy and cooing, laughing for a bit then get very very grumpy bc of OT... finally hubby brought him upstairs and put him in the swing and he screamed and screamed, hubby had the swing music on and was singing (praying, lol) and he finally stopped crying and drifted off to sleep) he slept for a couple hours I think before waking, maybe only 1 hour, I dont rememeber now and didnt write it down and then aftr that he kept stirring to wake up every hour all night long. I would gently put him hands on top of his and he would stop stirring and go back to sleep, except twice he woke up fully and I think he was hungry around 12 and around 6 he woke up for the day at 6.30 and again I was so tired, hubby took him for a ride and he slept some more from 6.40 - 8sh.
Last night before bed was so awful and this is what those darn short catnaps get us is an OT baby who by the end of the day is a screaming mess and won't even nurse to sleep. I am 100% shattered. Today I just held and nursed him to sleep for his first nap and prlly the rest of them too bc I can not handle another night like last night for BT again .I just cant..
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I'm wondering if we should just ditch the last CN and do BT then instead? WDYT?
Katherine has hit the nail on the head there about you being scared of OT. Tbh, i didn't realise you felt *that scared of it, I'm sorry if any of my posts about pushing the A time were inconsiderate in anyway :-*. That being said, it my experience UT causes us far, far more issues than OT ever did. To be fair, I hate OT before BT because i hate the unsettled nights and the ages getting to sleep at BT as that's when we have the least patience isn't it? But, the rest of the time UT naps are a nightmare as they are just impossible to get them back off to sleep. Do remember that he'll be able to cope with a little more OT better than he ever used to when he was a very little bubba ok? This is why I'm always in favour of pushing the first two A times, so any OT happens then. We have more patience (ish ;)) in getting them off to sleep and they are more likely to get back off to sleep if they wake early from the nap. With UT, no chance. Same first issue of not going to sleep, then no chance of resettling.
It's totally up you what ou want to do. We can only advise, you are there living it. Do you want to take a break fr a few days then try again with the rip off plaster plan Katherine mentioned? I love consistency and I know LO's do too, so how about next time we approach it, we do it all in one go? I mean it can't get much worse can it? He will cry, but you will be there with him, not giving in. We tend to see a better result day 3 or so, a slight regression on day 4 ish (they check to make sure you're completely sure this is the new way of going to sleep), then it gets better from then on. Let me know what you'd like to do, we'll support you whatever you choose ((hugs)) xx
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I have also tried to cut out the last CN and treat it as bedtime, did the bath and bedtime routine and put to sleep but he wakes up 30 mins later as if it was just a nap, but he does that same thing also at BT too, waking up between 30-60 mins after being put down. Why is this, is that from UT or OT?
So you think I should push him to more A time even if it makes him OT thinking it will help him to take longer or better naps? I'm a little confused I think. My LO doesn't seem to fall asleep very well at all when he gets OT is why I am so scared of it. If he gets OT by the time BT rolls around he goes nuts and will not go to sleep, like what happened with last night. I really don't think he is UT when I get him to take a nap. For example, I was just vacuuming and had him in the swing, I was going to vacuum to kill some time before putting him down for a nap, I had about 15 mins till it was an hour and 45 mins. Well when I was vacuuming he fell asleep in the swing at an hour and 35 mins. He started to drift off at 1h30 min I noticed and took him about 5 mins of head rolling back and forth then he fell asleep. I guess if he wakes up in 30 mins and I can't get him back to sleep he was UT? I thought if he falls asleep like that then he must be at the right level of tired. If he is rubbing eyes, yawning, being really fussy, doesn't that mean he is ready for sleep or should I push him to longer A time and then he will potentially become OT and really fight it?
I think I will have to take a break bc tomorrow he has a doc appt for his 4 month check up and idk if that will interfere with naps or not, depends when he wakes up etc. And tbh I am very frustrated, he takes better naps on me and goes to sleep easier at night from taking better naps on me (most of the time) Idk how I feel at this point. I see so many posts on here of babies who are a lot older than mine and they still are having the same issues that they have been working on for months which leads me to think that maybe this is all developmental and maybe we expect too much from younger babies or babies in general. Ik people have success too but it seems they have success after a long time of working on it and then by then their baby is older so maybe they are then ready to sleep better?
I really do appreciate you guys being patient with me. I am very very emotional right now and struggling with being a new mom more than I thought I was going to, getting too overwhelmed too easily it seems. I keep going around in circles, trying to sleep train and then going back to what is easier. Sometimes I feel like I am going out of my mind bc I go back and forth bc idk what is the right thing to do..
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I might still consider OT before BT there. What we can do is learn more and more about him every day. It is a process and he in one sense is dictating what he needs. Sometimes we have to be a bit proactive and help them to learn the new way of sleeping. In either case, I think i'd rather vacuum and have him fall asleep on his own than spend hours trying to get him to sleep ;). Know that won't work forever though :P.
Oh course he falls asleep better on you, that's what he's done most of his life. It's totally up to you how you'd like to approach it. Tracy believed we all need Y time and I feel like that's why you're struggling atm because you're not getting any.
I would pay attention to his sleepy cues, but not take them as gospel at this age. If he's rubbing his eyes after ony an hour A time, I definitely wouldn't try for a nap. That's why we have one eye on the clock also.
How about you take a couple of days and just watch his cues. Take a note what happens and when. And how the naps go just watching him. I think the time away from me telling you what to do and for you to reconnect with your mummy instinct will make you feel better also.
I struggled massively too. We all do to some degree. I thought it was going to be so much easier. Babies should sleep if they're tired, I didn't realise how much effort it takes. FWIW i remember a week when DD was 4mo I think and she just went on nap strike. No naps whatsoever. I spent that week in tears and feeling so isolated. I wish I had found this forums then.
You will see millions of posts about LO's on here and their sleep, as that's what we do! It's not very often people post on here telling us their babies are sleeping well so what do they do?! :P There are sleep regressions, teething issues, prop issues, LO's being OT or UT for their naps, going through nap transitions early or late and need help there too.
One thing I will have to say that if you do decide to sleep train, as Katherine said you have to be 100% committed. There's absolutely no point in allowing a LO to cry and cry for ages (with you there of course) for him to finally get what he wants and be BF to sleep. That's just teach him that he has to cry for longer and harder to get what he wants and really actually not fair on him. If you change the goalposts, you have to be consistent above all things. It will take a bit of time, but if you have the right mind set andhe will feel it from you, it will be so much easier. If you doubt yourself and what you are doing is for the best, you'll automatically revert back to your old way of doing things and that will just confuse him. It's no bad thing to sleep train. Crying is horrible but if you remember that is his only way of communicating with you it does help. If he were an adult, he would just shout at you saying 'this is NOT the way we do things mum', to which you'll reply ' i know, but this is the new way of doing things from now on, ok? I know it's hard as we are changing the goal posts, but this will be so much better for you int he long run and you and I will feel more rested and able to go about our day'. This is why we firmly believe we are with our LO's whilst they are crying. We are communicating back to them. Have a think hun, anything you want to chat through, we are here for you. But please give what I said some thought, speak to your DH and have what YOU believe to be for the best firmly in your mind whatever that may be. Good luck with the 4mo check today xx