BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: 4isstillnighttime on January 07, 2016, 03:56:05 am
-
Hi
I've posted a million times about my 7 month old. His sleep has never really got back to normal after Christmas and we are in a mess with loads of bad habits and props. The thing is, I am now so tired it is affecting how I am with the other 2 and so I will just have to sleep train, much as I hate it, so I can g o back to being a normal person rather than a weeping, raging monster. And my parents are here for one week so now is the time! But my other 2 were much older when I STed so I'm not sure how to do it with such a small baby :'( and I would really like some advice.
He is 7 months exactly. Sleeps in my room (often in my bed). Breastfed. Has a dummy which he cannot replug, and he isn't mad keen on it - will only take it when he is really sleepy, and it's not the magic cure it was with the twins. He is eating 3 meals a day but we are doing babyled weaning so not eating massive volumes. During the day he feeds about every 3.5 hours but that is all thrown out by his terrible nights too as I am never sure when to offer the first feed as he has had a million little snacks overnight.
Yesterday's EASY:
A for the day at 6ish but really restless since 4:30
Breakfast (porridge) 7
BF 8 (didn't take much, maybe full from breakfast)
S 9-10:15 (couldn't resettle)
BF 10:30 (good feed)
Fell asleep for 10 mins in the car at 11:30
Lunch 12:00 (sandwiches)
BF 1:30 (OK feed)
S 2:00 - 4:00
BF 5:00
Supper 6:00 (cauliflower cheese)
BF 7:00
BT 7:30
NW so far (!) 9, 10 (dummy and resettle), 11:30 (BF), 2:30 (tried to resettle and couldn't, tried to feed and wouldn't, shh patted for an hour of screaming, tried again to feed at 3:30 and had about 3 sucks and went to sleep). I'm sure he will be awake in an hour or so.
I know our EASY isn't great either. But I will just have to do if all at once. As a family we are absolutely on our knees. I hate baby crying but I am getting loads of screaming anyway, so I would like to feel like it is getting somewhere. Honestly, it's the first time with all 3 of them I've been tempted to do any kind of crying method (I won't, don't worry!) purely because of the effect on my precious twins - I have no energy and no patience, the baby is miserable and tired.
So please give me a step by step approach. PUPD has never worked in the past as it isn't that he wants to be held, so I have always soothes in the cot, and I'd rather do that. I think I want a gradual withdrawal method but am prepared to do it quite quickly even if crying is involved. And I don't need him sleeping through, am happy to keep NF, but after the first one he isn't really hungry for them, doesn't even suck properly, so I'm sure it's a prop. He has some separation anxiety but he doesn't settle with me there so I don't think it's that.
Finally....because of the twins, some things are fixed. I do nursery runs at 8:30'and 5 3 days a week. And mealtimes can't move much as the twins are creatures of habit.
Pleas help. We are falling apart here.
-
(((Hugs))) sorry I don't have much time now, but one quick question - how is he getting to sleep now? If you want to do gradual withdrawal we'll need to know where you are now to decide on the first tiny step towards where you want to be. Also - a little more info on the fixed things in the day - eg how long are the nursery runs, do you leave at 8:30 and back by 9? Do you have to get dinner for the twins after nursery collection or have they eaten there? Or could they eat pre-prepared sandwiches whilst watching a DVD whilst you do an earlier BT with your DS? I sometimes had to do this with my DS but he was a bit older and not a twin... What's their lunch window?
-
Holding your hand...
-
Thank you thank you thank you - even if he never sleeps any better I appreciate the hand holding so much. Am in the depths of despair!!
At bedtime he has a bath, massage, BF in the twins room while we read their stories. Then into my room, BF again (doesn't concentrate when twins are around), into sleeping bag, into cot. Dummy in, kiss on the head and I leave the room. He will play with his dummy until he is bored, then cry - I go back in, pop dummy in and he goes to sleep. If he gets upset I hold his hands on his chest, shh in his ear, pat his chest. At nap time it's the same but no feed. Overnight I try all of these but if it doesn't work I feed him. I can usually hold it together for the first feed but at subsequent feeds I tend to fall asleep and wake up with him still with the nipple in his mouth but not exactly latched on. Then I get confused how much he has fed and end up feeding again at the next wake and the same thing happens. After about 4, 5 if I'm lucky, he gets really restless and agitated and will only sleep in short bursts - 20 mins at a time. 6 (of I'm lucky!) the twins come in and the day begins. If he is actually asleep when they wake up I will try and intercept them but he is usually only dozing.
Nursery is about a 10 minute drive away. We need to leave by 8:30 at the latest. When we get there I have to get baby out of the car and take all of them in, takes about 5 mins to settle the twins. The. 10 mins back. In the evening I need to leave between 5 and 5:30.
I was thinking that I could actually be more flexible with his mealtimes as the twins don't really nap so would come and eat a snack while he had a meal if he slept through theirs. Usually though we have breakfast at 7, lunch 11:30 - 12, supper 4:30 - 5/30. They have cereal or fruit or something when they get back, but I can't really leave them unsupervised to eat as they are in an awful phase of fighting - it would be about 30 seconds before one or both came charging up the road to tell me what was happening! I could possibly bribe them to stay quietly in their room upstairs so I could keep an ear out for them.
Do you think it is a ST issue? I feel like he is really nearly independent, and can't see why his sleep is so bad!!!
Thank you again!!!
-
I thought that. You are so much further ahead of us in terms of settling!
I wonder if you can somehow log what's happening at each wake (app?) so that you feed less often? We had loads of feeds last night (jabs yesterday, I went with it) but normally I can just about remember when he's fed and respond with something other than a feed if it's not been long. But I have him in bed with me from the start of the night and am probably a lot more rested as a result.
He's so so close!
-
(((Hugs))) you must be so tired! I agree he does seem pretty close to being able to resettle himself, one thing I wondered was whether you can leave several dummies around the cot in the hope that he'll be able to find one and replug himself, that way it can become a comfort object that he can control himself, rather than a prop which you need to actively replace for him?
It sounds like it's really the NWs rather than daytime/BT settling that you want to sleep train for, right? I agree you'll probably have to decide on a strategy for reducing the number of times you feed at night. You said you feel that he's hungry for the first feed but not for subsequent feeds? You could decide on a time for a dream feed and then decide not to feed less than 3/4h after that, for example. Then make a note of when he fed and don't feed before that time the following night - so if he ended up going 4h the first night then don't feed earlier that that even if he wakes earlier - you may end up resettling before that and find he'll then sleep until 5h from BT - in that case feed, and the next night you wouldn't feed before 5h after BT. Does that make sense?
Or, for a totally different approach, you could try the gentle removal plan: Gentle Removal Plan
What do you think you'd prefer?
We still need to look at your routine I think, but I just didn't get what time you're home after the nursery run in the morning? 9? And in the afternoon, you're out 5-5:30? Might just help to know exactly what your limitations are, I don't want to suggest something impossible! How is he like during the day? Does he seem really tired in the morning after the unsettled night? Seems to be, with that nap in the car... Does he seem really refreshed after a 2h afternoon nap? It may be that he's in an OT cycle and needs an early BT to help him to catch up - how early can you realistically get him down for BT, do you think? Was that day that you posted typical, or is it different when he doesn't fall asleep in the car?
-
;D I just reread my post - even I'm not sure what is happening about nursery drop offs!! Basically, I'm iut the house from 8:30 - 9, and from about 5 - 5:45 (have to go in and meet with teachers). I can't just leave him to sleep in the car while I go in as I have to park on the road and it isn't safe.
He is definitely exhausted after his rotten nights. We had another shocking night last night and he was up at 5 (did an enormous poo!!). Went back to sleep in bed with me at about 6 and slept til 8. So as a result he has had a kind of 1 nap day, in bed by 6:30 but lots of wakes already so I think he is pretty OT. I have my mum here for a few days so tomorrow and Monday night I could get him to bed really early to catch up....but realistically 6:30 is as early as I can do. Maybe 6:15.
I'm keen for him to keep his dummy as I go back to work soon and I love knowing that he has a comforter when I'm not there. He can sleep without it (doesn't have it in the car or the sling) and it often falls out and doesn't wake him. He can't replug yet....but we could work on it! And I'll pop more into the cot, that's a great idea.
I think I cut down the twins feeds by going gradually longer between them, but they were much older.
Would it be ok to say something like a DF at 10ish, then no more feeds til 1, then at least 3 hours between? That's what I have been trying to do but wasn't sure if that was ok at this age. He is often really OT at bedtime so a DF would reassure me that he wasn't hungry if he woke before then....
Thank you again for all the help!! MJN did your little one have the meningitis injection? Baby had a huge swollen red lump after it and a storming temperature - it's a tough one!!
-
Oh dear poor thing - and poor you! I wonder whether that enormous poo made him uncomfortable that night? Have you noticed any changes in his bowel habits or indeed in his sleep since starting solids? I know you said that he doesn't have large quantities but even small amounts of new foods can affect LOs. Have you introduced foods one at a time to see what effect they have, or just let him try whatever he wants? Could you keep a log of what he eats and how he sleeps and when he poos - perhaps you may see patterns?
I really would try for a few good early nights if you can, to help him catch up. Even if you can't do it consistently. We went through a patch where DD couldn't go to bed earlier than 6:30pm on days when I was working, but I'd get her down for 6pm on days when I wasn't, which really helped her to catch up when her nights were bad.
How long since he dropped his third nap? I guess that one would be hard to get now unless it was in the car for nursery collection on one leg of the journey, right? And of course you'd have no influence over whether he dropped off or not... I just can't help wondering whether those A times are more than he can handle. Even if he takes a nice long pm nap after a long A time, like that day you posted, he may just have crashed for 2h but still been tired afterwards and needed EBT? Has he always had A times on the longer side for his age?
Yes your plan for night feeds sounds good - so fix the 10pm (ish) DF and then no feeds until 1am, settle by other means until then. But I guess what I meant is that if he then sleeps until, say, 2am, then you know he's ok going until that time and so you could decide not to feed until 2am the following night. I just suggested this as you seemed to suggest that he's not really hungry after the df? The more you resettle him at night without feeding, the more he'll hopefully learn how to do it and be less expectant of a feed to get him back off to sleep again, but you'll still feed him when he's genuinely hungry. I haven't weaned feeds like this myself but know several others who have done so successfully. I think because it's become such a prop for him at night, it would help to gently reduce the night feeding, ideally to just two feeds, including the dream feed - does that sound realistic to you or do you feel he genuinely needs more feeding at night?
-
Yes, meningitis vaccine - I was dreading it but he seemed ok.
So if it helps, my 2 month old is happily going (not every night) from 10-3 without a feed with no intervention from me at this point. I'd say you could stretch the time without a feed fairly rapidly so that you don't get 'stuck'. What do you think?
-
He has never been a great pooer, and solids has definitely made that worse. I have cut him back to a much plainer diet (was just giving him the same as the twins before) so will see if that helped. His dreadful sleep has definitely coincided with starting solids!
He sometimes has a 3rd nap in the car, but even if he does it is 10 minutes at the most as he wakes up when I take the car seat out. He has always managed long A times, but he is generally so happy I prob miss lots of sleep cues
I fell asleep typing that after doing a DF at 10, and have just caved and am feeding him after 20 minutes of full-on screaming.
I could feel myself getting angry with him for not going back to sleep, and I can't stand that. He was hysterical, retching and gagging even though he was in bed with me, dummy in, shhing and patting. Kept looking like he had dropped off and then screaming again. So now I have just fed him anyway, I'm furious with him, him with me, DH and I have just argued about it, he has learned that if he goes ballistic I will feed him anyway, I may as well have done it half an hour ago and saved us all the agony......and he's not feeding properly anyway so it definitely wasn't hunger!!
And he and I are in a pool of angry tears and DH is on the sofa. This is what I'm not doing well at.
-
Oh honey I feel your pain! We had a similar conversation last night. It is just so hard!!
Back later xxx
-
Ok, so we need something gentler I think. It's no good to any of you to end up like this.
Can your mum or your DH help at all? Would you consider feeding him but for less time?
Just throwing it out there but is he getting enough liquid during the day?
-
Thank you so much for being there. You're right, we aren't doing anyone any good trying to space the feeds I don't think - he doesn't take a very good DF so maybe he was genuinely hungry at 11:30, but because I made him scream for half an hour first he was too wretched to feed properly....anyway I ended up feeding again at 1, at 4, and he was pretty much up for the day at 5. I tried rocking him back to sleep and he would drop off in my arms for 5 mins then wake up screaming again, even if I didn't try to put him down. I wonder if he is getting unwell or something, makes me feel even more guilty!!
It's difficult with DH - firstly because his leave has been cancelled :'( so he is back at work. Also he doesn't really believe in sleep training - he comes from a culture where babies cosleep, feed on demand and are worn until 2 at the youngest. So he thinks it is unnecessary and although he understands my need to do it, I can't ask him to help with that really. It would be like him asking me to let them CIO. Also he drives an hour and a half to work and works 11 hour shifts so he needs the sleep really. And mum lives in Australia!
I think that maybe feeding on demand overnight but for less time is maybe the way to go. How do I start? Do it for every feed? And I'm sure he doesn't drink enough in the day - can't really drink from sippy cup. But I tried an open cup today and he seemed to do quite well.....
Yesterday's EASY (if it helps!!)
A 5:45
S 9:00 - 10:45
S 2-3:30 (sling)
BT 6:30.....but by the time he went to sleep at least 7 or 7:15.
NW 9:00, DF 10, 11:30 (screamed for half an hour, finally fed), 1 (fed), 4(fed and into my bed), awake and chatting for a while, poo and change 5 ish, really tired, dripping off for 5
Mins at a time in cot or in my arms
Any thoughts? He is shattered so maybe I should take his A times down a bit? Will try to get a 3rd nap today too as I do think that helps.
-
Ok, no 3rd nap, mum and dad are here from Australia (last day today :'( ) and all too exciting. Had 2 reasonable naps in the day - 9-10:15 and 1-3, put down at 6:30 but lots of early evening waking. Up for the day at 5 and has just fallen asleep feeding.....and as my parents are here I'm going to let him have an early nap and maybe just follow his sleepy cues today to get him a bit better rested. Last night I didn't even look at my watch, fed when he woke for it (3 times maybe but I fell asleep instantly I had him latched on so don't really know) and so although my night was very disturbed, I got quite a bit of sleep overall. I think, as a family, we just need to reset a bit and then try again.
So....I will give him today to do what he likes. But from tonight I will try again with trying to reduce his night feeds. Do i just time them and reduce how long her feeds for? And if I try something like no feeds before 11, then try for at least 2 hours in between?
This may not be relevant (and is maybe a bit gross!!) but he and the twins have all had a bit of an upset tummy for a couple of days. He is pooing much more than usual (maybe 4 times a day?) and it smells and looks exactly like a purely BF baby poo. He is definitely eating solids but does this mean he is getting too much milk??
-
your initial post sounds like what we went through. my LO woke every 45-90 mins to feed, her way of getting back to sleep. so we sleep trained, meaning shush pat and PUPD, she also had a soother prior to this and we got rid of it the night we sleep trained. have a look at my post here:
Re: Night wakings every 1-2 hrs
I guess it all comes down to the way your LO goes to sleep. this needs to be completely independent (no soother) and then he will be more able to put himself to sleep when he wakes up. since we sleep trained my LO wakes twice per night for a feed plus the DF, doable for me. Like you I was a wreck from all the night wakings.
do you think you could sleep train to start with at BT? It may take 2 hours or so initially but after this it will be much easier. then you decide a time when you are willing to give him a feed again, we did 3 hours... what do you think? Its so tough but sometimes necessary. I don't know why some BF babies happily sleep and feed maybe only once or twice per night and both of my girls took advantage from the milk bar and thought they could help themselves alllll night :o
-
Oh (((hugs))) and thanks zissi :)
Looks like he may have a bit of an upset tummy, if the twins do too - otherwise I'd have thought teething, if it smells. Either way, he won't be getting too much milk, actually bf (not fb, as it keeps being autocorrected to, lol!) will be the best thing to settle his tummy, and if you think he's getting diarrhoea, don't worry about feeding too often until that settles down as he'll need the hydration.
That's hard about DH, but I understand what you're saying. If you're not sure that cutting down night feeds by settling in other ways would be right for you all as a family, then try Pantley's gentle removal plan, which I posted above. No experience personally, but it may be right for you, and if you'd like some btdt to hold your hand, I'll ask around :)
Naps look pretty good really, but as I said before if you can get him to bed a little earlier it may help him to catch up - I realise that it doesn't help when you try for a CN but he doesn't take it ::)
-
Thank you all. I just went with it last night, and as a result we are all quite well rested!! it is hard with DH....but he is perfect in every other respect and really understanding of my need to do it, even though he gets even more upset by baby crying than me!
I'll look at that gentle withdrawal, thank you! I don't know why I am fining this so hard - I think it's because he cries so rarely that it seems particula unfair making him unhappy at night! What I will try and do then is the pull out thing (and I would love some advice if there is anyone around, that looks almost impossible!!) then when his little tummy is better and u can be sure he isn't hungry or thirsty, try again with trying to space out the feeds. And make them shorter so he feeds more in the day.
Does that sound reasonable? And is it ok to still keep posting here? I find sleep training very lonely and it's lovely to have somewhere to offload about it! I just feel so unfair talking about it to DH, who is very polite but is no doubt thinking "I don't see where the problem is"
-
Yes of course keep posting, we're here for you :-* I'll ask around re Pantley experience...
-
I did try it with the twins but it was awful! Just made them a bit more edgy around feeds! But this baby is a totally different personality so I think it's a good idea to give it a go. If I can stop him feeding to sleep at night then I can address reducing the feeds once that's done.
I'm in 2 minds about the dummy. I can see the advantage of getting rid of it....but I am going back to work soon and I love that he has that bit of comfort that anyone can give him, not just me.
A bit tearful now. I don't want to leave my precious baby for stupid work!! But that's another thread!
-
You poor thing, so much going on at once! Definitely keep posting, we can hold your hand even if we have no advice.
Hope tonight is better for you!
-
It is just too much, you know? I know none of them are massive problems....but still!
We had a very different day today - short first A (2h) with UT 45 min nap, then 3:15 A with an OT nap and a long resettle at 30 mins, then a 15 min CN in the way to nursery. And I did the gentle removal to the letter - he is holding my hand, but he went to sleep with nothing in his mouth.
Oh, wish me luck. I found an old text I'd sent to a friend when he was about 3 months old complaining because he was up at 1 and 3.....I would kill for that now!!
-
hugs for you! Its tough but you have to remember it will pass, too. could you introduce a soft toy or something? we did that when my first child was around 6 months in preparation for childcare to which she went when she was 10 months old. it worked really well and her little bunny is still going everywhere with her. I must actually do the same with my second daughter now who is 7 months...
-
Well done on getting him to sleep without feeding :) let's remember to celebrate every bit of progress we see, to encourage you through the setbacks :-*
-
Yes, I'm all for celebrating each bit of progress!!! Mixed night last night - woke for a feed at 11:45 and given the amount he is pooing I went with it (sorry, that's gross) as I am worried about his fluid intake (still not great with the sippy cup). Perhaps inevitably I fell asleep feeding him, woke up at 3 all hunched over with a sore neck, fed him again, and fell asleep again. Woke again at 4 and (finally) put him back to bed; he then woke at 5 but (this is the good bit!) settled without a feed and slept til 6!! He looks fantastic, really well rested! Wasn't sure what to do about naps today but he didn't even yawn once til 9:30, so I popped him straight to bed and he fell asleep with his dummy but just holding my hand, no patting or any thing. So I was very pleased and am having some coffee and some chocolate coins I found in the twins nursery bags (it's for their own good, they eat too much sugar!!).
Fingers crossed for a good nap. I am really thinking that if I could get his schedule a bit better we would definitely see improvement overnight. I would really like today to either get him down early or get a CN - think I will try for CN on the way to nursery and if it doesn't work out, put the twins in front of the TV and put him to bed as soon as we get home.
-
Oh that's fabulous!!
Can you get some more liquid into him in food, somehow? Just wondering. I know you're doing blw but if he could have something sloppy then it might negate the need for him to drink.
-
Yay that sounds like a great night - for him, not so comfortable for you though :-\ Two feeds is pretty normal at this age, I think you're right that once the day settles down the nights may well improve, especially once you manage to wean the f2s, difficult if you're so tired that you're feeding yourself to sleep as well as him :P Enjoy your rest and your well-earned chocolate :) Will be interesting to see how he does after that long A...
-
He did 1h15 nap....tried to resettle as he still looked tired but no luck. Have just put him down again after about 3h15 awake - settled holding my hand again. I am fine with hand holding as I can sleep on the floor by the cot if it becomes a long term thing and I found it easy to wean the twins off it. Plus it leaves a hand free for baby whispering on my phone!!
Don't think we will get a CN as hopefully he will sleep until 4ish....but will try really hard to have him asleep by 7 at the latest. Does that sound ok?
-
Sorry too late to answer you now, I'd have aimed for a little earlier BT given the 6am WU, as a 7pm BT would make for a 13h day on two naps, which may be a bit much, but let me know how it went. The first nap may have been OT, 3.5h A is much longer than he's had previously, isn't it? I'd have to look back over your previous posts to work out a suitable first A to aim for...
Well done again on the settling, that's fantastic :)
Aha - just found a day you posted where she did a great 1h45 nap after a 3h15 A time, so how about sticking with that for a few days and see if you can get some consistency with that first nap?
-
;D well, it all went wrong!! He woke up after 45 mins and I spent an HOUR trying to resettle him - he kept dropping off then waking himself up again. In the end I got him up at 4, gave him an early supper and was all ready to get him to bed super early.....but it didn't work out like that and he ended up going to bed at 7. I had various emergencies to deal with (potty training :o) and just put him in bed with his dummy....and he settled himself with no fuss at all. And he cried out after about an hour but was back asleep by the time I got there.
He has been on a 3 h A for ages (I like it as it's easy to remember!!) but I find I need at least 3h15 or I get 45 min naps. Unless he is tired from the night. If we have a reasonable night shall I try 3h15 and see how it goes? If I get a short nap I can't resettle then hopefully 3h15 will do again.
BTW great idea for watery food!!! He has had melon, cucumber and stewed pear today!! As well as LOADS of water....but he just dribbles it out and grind at me!!
-
Cucumber and melon encourage pee-ing and pear helps move the poo along, so that might all help. Is there anything about the frequency or (eew) texture of his poo that might make you think he has a food intolerance issue? Mind you, I suspected one with LO1 and I think it was probably just his teeth.
Been rooting for you, you're doing really well. Lying on the floor holding hands was my speciality for a long time :) More chocolate!
-
Maybe Anne. He was always a bit irregular but since we started solids it's been a nightmare. He had playdough consistency poos every week or so but loads of it - adult size ones! Then all 3 of them got poorly but his is just dragging on - twins back to normal. Apart from being a bit runnier it looks and smells just like it did when he was just breastfed - that yoghurty smell and scrambled egg look (sorry!!). But I don't know if that is just because he is feeding so much!!! Big twin had a cow's milk intolerance as a baby but has grown out of it now (I think!) but we are a very allergicky family. I was vaguely wondering if I should cut down his dairy a bit as I have a feeling that it is not good after diarrhoea. Also, I have to take little twin to the GP on Friday so was wondering about asking then if it's anything I should worry about. He is absolutely fine in himself....just pooing all the time!!
Thanks for the chocolate!! Always very welcome!!
-
Yeah, I'd ask about it. You could try cutting down dairy and see if it helps. And maybe a probiotic to heal his gut? Or just some yoghurt? :)
-
He eats a lot of yoghurt!! Does it have to be any particular type? He has plain Greek yoghurt with vanilla essence, but the twins have little Yeo pots which they could share if that's better. Will cut down the dairy - he has a lot of cream cheese and rice pudding at the moment to try and get calories in in the day, but meal plan for tomorrow is roast chicken so easy to make that a dairy light day
-
Hmm do you think that second nap was OT or discomfort? Given that the first A was long and the nap under 1.5h, 3h15 may well have been a bit too long for him. But the dropping off and waking up again could indicate discomfort?? I wouldn't personally reduce the first A by very much after a bad night, but you know him best.
And wow - potty training twin toddlers :o you have my respect :-*
I'd probably cut out the dairy for a few days too, see what happens. And yes I'd certainly ask the GP if possible but be aware that they may not be able to give him much time - at our GP surgery if you want to see a GP for more than one issue you have to book a double appointment :P
Haha keep trying to post to find you've just posted again! I found my DD had issues with yoghurt at this age so just cut it out completely for a while, but her issues were the opposite to your LO's. I know from myself that after a bout of gastro flu, yoghurt didn't agree with me terribly well for a good few days either, but others find it helpful. I'm assuming Anne was thinking about live yoghurt though?
-
;D I'm sitting on the landing waiting for big twin to go to sleep!! Nothing else to do!! That's why I'm so quick!!
I'm sure his tummy is uncomfortable so I'm going with that. And I'll stick to 3h15 A and see - at least then we will have a better idea of things! I'll just mention him to the GP and if he wants me to book another appointment I can take him next week. And I'll cut out his dairy for a
Few days.
I keep expecting to see a tooth with all this, but no sign!!
Twins are being trained one at a time, 2 would be too much for my poor washing machine!!!
Thanks again to everyone for all your help :-*
-
I'm assuming Anne was thinking about live yoghurt though?
Exactly. But yeah after a tummy bug, I think I'd just cut the dairy and load up on suitable probiotics. Then reintroduce after a week or so? OT but for my OH we've just figured out that he has a wheat intolerance - it was awful but then when he was taking probiotics and eating wheat, symptoms were much reduced, and luckily now totally gone since he's cut it. I would ask GP but yes trimblr's right about the time constraint, plus every GP I've ever spoken to about food intolerance knew less than I did about it. (shrug)
-
That sounds like progress indeed!! Well done you!
-
Well....1h15 after 3h15 A, down again after 3:15 again so will see.....coming up to 1h15 now....
-
And...?
-
Woke at 1j15 but I managed to resettle quite easily and he slept for another half an hour. So hat 1h15 and 1h45 on 3h15 As. Tried really hard for early BT but he didn't go down til nearly 7 - I would have said OT except normally he would then have been up about 3 times already and he hasn't (yet!!).
In other news (my life is so exciting!!) his poo seems to be settling down a bit - only 3 times today. Is it too early to give the credit to his dairy-free diet?? He is a little bit off his food though, but that could be because he was exhausted at each meal time - have really struggled to get the 3 of them in sync today!!
Fingers crossed for me again tonight.......
-
And toes!
Then could you come and sort my guy out please?!?
-
;D Of course!!! I'm sooooooo amazing at this baby sleep thing! I should be a sleep consultant!!! ;D
Fingers crossed for you too!! Xx
-
We had a great night!! Woke at 10 but resettled with his dummy and a cuddle.....then slept til 1 when I fed, and then again at 4:30. Unfortunately he was just dropping back off to sleep at 5 when he did an enormous poo, so by the time I had changed him (and his clothes!) and got him back to sleep it was 5:45 and little twin woke him at 6:30!
Unfortunately we have to go to playgroup this morning at 10 so that will be a sling nap, and we have a GP appointment at 3 so that will be another sling nap I think....but I will persevere with the 3h15 A and see where that gets us.
Whoop whoop whoop for 2 blocks of 3 hours sleep!!!!
-
Amazing!! Bet you feel so much better for it!
-
I feel like a new person! Catastrophic naps today - one in the sling at a VERY noisy playgroup and one in the sling in the doctors surgery - 45 mins each time and couldn't resettle. Just popping him off to bed now.....
-
Good luck for tonight. Sounds like you're on to something, today was entirely beyond your control of course.
I wonder about the poo-ing at night. Seems odd to me just because neither of mine ever did once passed nb stage, I could just have been lucky!
-
The night poo is a new thing - hopefully it will settle down now his little precious tummy is getting better. He has only done one poo today so that's much better. And he cried out about 5 mins ago but settled himself back to sleep by the time I got there.
What has made the difference though? 3h15 A? Or just him getting better? I need to know so I can keep doing it!!!!!
-
Oh it's so hard to know for sure isn't it, but so good to hear about the progress :) well done both of you :) My DS never poo'd at night beyond nb phase either, so it was a bit of a shock when DD kept it up for...well I don't quite remember, but certainly still at 7mo :P it's a pain though, isn't it!
-
I really hoping his little tum is on the mend and the poo will slow down a bit! (I did cloth nappies so that amount of poo makes me scared!)
FX for a good night.
-
Cloth nappies with diarrhoea would be horrific!! Although my mum always says the cloth ones leak less and that we never had nappy rash - I am totally in awe of you doing it!
We have had some ups and downs since I last posted. Tummy (finally!) back to normalish - he is very windy still but no more midnight poos which is good. And he is seeming a bit more settled overnight - we have had some good nights of only doing 2 feeds (2 am and 5ish) which is great. And naps have been pretty good too with an A of 3h15. But I am struggling a bit now with early waking.....
Yesterday was a great day:
Up at 5:30
Nap 8:45 - 10:30 (fell asleep in car, transferred to cot, no resettle)
Nap 1:50 - 3:30 (resettle at 1h15)
BT 7 (twins and potty again, aargh)
Self settled for second nap and at bedtime. Was so pleased, went to bed assuming i would have a great night!! Instead....woke at midnight for a feed....then at 2:30.....then at 4:30 and wouldn't go back to sleep!!! No matter what I did!! Not crying, not upset.....just awake and playing with his hands, his teddy, his blanket. And this morning wouldn't go to sleep until 8:40 so an A of 4h10!!!!!!
What does this mean?!? What do I do?!? 5:30 I can cope with (actually fits our day quite well as he can go to sleep on the way back from nursery and transfer to the cot) but 4:30!!!!!!!!!
Gah. I'm exhausted!!!
-
Oh my goodness, another shocking night......awake at 10:30 (resettled with shh pay but it took ages!), fed at midnight, fed at 3 (but not much of a feed)....then couldn't resettle from that feed til 5 ish....:slept til 5:45. Need an emoticon with forks holding up my eyelids!!! He wasn't upset or crying, just awake and wanting to play! And he is so restless and noisy when he sleeps now, always thrashing around!!
Naps today have been a bit of a mess due to appointments, but did 1h15 this morning after about 3 h A (had to have an early nap as I had to go to the dentist) and then did 2h after another 3:15 but that was in the sling on the way home from swimming (and then on the sofa!!).
I can't see a pattern to the good nights or bad nights. And I'd love some advice. On the plus side, he has just woken up in the sling and is all rosy and chubby and happy!!!!
-
Remind me what age he is?
-
7 months 2 weeks. 33 weeks.
I nearly wrote "2 and a half". Getting confused between my sons and my threads!!!! Little twin doesn't have one, maybe I should start one!!
-
:D oh can't wait to hear about little twin.
Have you considered that baby might be LSN? Sorry don't have time to read over the thread, but I know someone who might be able to offer an opinion...
-
He has always had quite long A times for his age......what do you do with a LSN baby!!???
-
You cut their naps to get a good night. They need less sleep than the average baby. Could that be your LO?
Just hang on, i've asked Heidi to pop over when she has a moment (MasynSpencerElliotte). E is an LSN phenomenon.
-
;D out of 3 children, why can't I just have a normal one?!?? ;D
Could be. Will be very pleased to hear from Heidi, and I'll try anything!! He dropped his 3rd nap really early too.
-
Sorry not to have been around - I think Anne may be on to something and I have every confidence in Heidi :) (((hugs))) you must be tired!
-
;D out of 3 children, why can't I just have a normal one?!?? ;D
I think the same thing a lot! Lol Anne E really is a lsn phenomenon isn't she? I just wanted to post before I pop off to bed - DD2 has an appt first thing tomorrow morning so while we wait I will have a read over your thread and see what we can come up with. My DD3 went to 2 naps at 4 months, 1 nap at 7.5 months and stopped napping entirely at 22 months :o She totally needed naps chopped left and right to preserve nights (DD1 & DD2 require almost as much sleep as she does and there is a 5 & 7 year age gap!).
-
Heidi, thank you!!! She sounds amazing!! I don't think my baby is quite that phenomenal, but maybe!!
Last night after those naps he woke at 10 and resettled with shh pat, fed at about 12:30 (both fell asleep), woke at 2 and put him to bed, he woke again at 4, settled with shh pat, woke at 4:45 and up for the day - tried feeding (not interested), shh pat, cuddles, daddy......it's now half 7 and he is a bit crochety and he really looked tired at about 5:30.....but not tired enough to sleep!!
I think the last time we had a 3rd nap was before Christmas, so maybe 6.5 months? But we hadn't had one regularly for ages.
I would be pathetically grateful for any help!!! He makes the twins look easy!!!
-
So are the nw's usually happy/chatty? They really sound UT to me! At this point we were on one nap but she is an extreme example but I wonder about capping the day sleep for a time to see if the nights improve (or yk you just get a waking or two for feeds and not other wakings!). We did a long morning nap and a short pm catnap because it work with the school run better when we had two naps...I think her wake up was 7 am, nap at 11 am for 1-1.5 hrs, nap at 3:30 pm for 20-30 min, bedtime at 8 pm. It worked for 3 months until she stopped going down for the catnap even with apop and the first nap had to be pushed later so she would actually sleep!
-
I think he must be UT too, although he looks exhausted but I think it's because his nights are so bad. If he is tired he sleeps. He is now self-settling for naps and BT, but he is really hard to resettle in the night and after about 4 almost impossible - chatty and playing. And if he does finally go back to sleep its only for 45 mins - like an under tired nap! So we are starting the day on an UT/OT cycle! And this morning he woke up at 4:45 then the earliest I could put him down was 8:15 - and he was tired, but not destroyed. Did a 1h45 nap though and then was cranky after, but I don't see how he could not be cranky as he is up all night!
It would work better for us probably to have a short am nap and a long pm. So normally he will do at least 1h15 in the morning - shall I try capping that at an hour to start? I thought capping that nap might help with the early waking. And I'm not too worried about OT as I can prob catch him up in the sling.
-
If you do cap the AM nap, try not to let it go earlier, that can reinforce EWs. (Am I even making any sense?)
-
Yup. So stick at first nap 3h15 after wake up, but just cap it at an hour?
-
^^^yes! And keep in mind to bump that A up if ew gets worse as too early of an am nap can make the ew worse.
What is the total sleep he gets in 24 hrs right now approx? That is what I based naps off of...if I wanted an 11 hr night and all I was getting was 13 hrs total then to keep the night I had to limit naps to 2 hrs.
-
Prob getting 10 hours a night and 3-4 in the day. Last night was pretty good - down at 6:30 ish, quick squeak at 10, fed at 1:30, then slept til 4:15. Then he did a poo so I changed him (and his clothes, and his sheets, aaarrgghh), put him down and went to sleep, and when I woke up at 5:30 he was asleep (woke up quickly though). He looks shattered today though - big bags under his eyes - and little twin is saying he doesn't feel well so maybe there is sickness in the house.
If I cap his first nap to an hour, will I keep 3:15 A again after it?
-
Well....I capped his first nap and it all went a bit wrong from there.....here is our EASY, any thoughts?
WU 5:50
S 9:20 (really hard to settle, unlike him!) - 10:20
S 2:00 (really, really, really hard to settle) - 3 ish
BT 6:30 but had to shh pat to sleep.
So he's only had just 2 hours of nap today. He was seriously OT so am expecting an unsettled night....but if he is able to be resettled at his NW rather than staying awake telling me stories and playing with his hands that would hopefully mean that that is the problem, and I can start seriously paring down his naps!!
Just as an aside.....I complain about him a lot but I am absolutely besotted really!!
-
I think we all are like that with our kids!
Any revelations with his night sleep? I hope it was better! What about other factors like teeth or growth spurts - any of that in play too? The not settling if he usually does is odd, makes me wonder if something is up!
-
Something was up....all 3 of them have had the most awful bug. Massive temperatures, hacking coughs. They are slowly getting better but we are definitely back to 3 hourly feeds, night and day. No solids, no water....so I have just gone with the BFing.
I'll give him a little while to settle, and then try again!!! All of them have been sleeping loads - even the twins have been ok 2 naps for a while. It's been like having 3 little babies all at once!
-
Awww, poor things. Hope it passes soon!
-
Aww lots of healthy vibes for your family xx
-
Oh no, poor things, hope they're all better soon and that you stay well :-*
-
Oh my goodness....fevers again, and little twin has a rash, and I have such a sore throat :'( :'( :'(
Please keep the vibes coming, this is absolutely grim! I am just desperate to leave the house!!!! But someone is always napping or eating or vomiting......
-
Oh dear me! Can DH take a day off? Sounds like an extra pair of hands is needed!! Loads more vibes ~~~~~~~
-
Yikes!!! Lots and lots of vibes for you ~~~
-
Hey there, how are things now? :-*
-
All still poorly. They have rashes now. I am getting about 3 hours of broken sleep a night. So tired I could cry.
-
Oh dear god. Can you catch some sleep over the weekend? Hope so. Poor little things! poor you!
-
Oh no (((hugs))) yes really hope you can get some rest over the weekend :-*
-
Oh my, that sucks!! Sending some sleepy dust to the kiddos, I hope you can catch up somehow.
-
Thanks everyone :-* good to have the support from you all!! It has been brutal and they still aren't right. Am taking them back to the GP today, it can't be right to be poorly for over 2 weeks! Little twin is starting to get better but big twin still looks awful and has this awful cough at night where he sounds like he can't breathe!
You are all so lovely!!
-
Hope GP can help but there has been a nasty bug with cough going around. Coughs lasted ages here, 3 weeks easily. Lavender oil in bedrooms at night helped .
-
Hope the GP can help, I agree that doesn't sound right.
-
More (((hugs))) how did it go at the GP?
-
Antibiotics for chest infections for the twins....and they are loads better! Still coughing (lavender plug in things are helping though, thanks Anne!) and still up quite a lot at night......but temps down, eating and drinking, and they have lost that awful feverish, flushed look.
I am struggling a bit with the baby though - I've got him down to one night feed at 2ish which is perfect for me.......but he is waking up a lot in the night, waking early, and his naps have gone haywire. This is yesterday's EASY
A 5:30 ish.....shh patted til twins up at 6:00, then BF
Nap 8:45 - 9:20 - couldn't resettle
Nap 12:45 - 1:30 - couldn't resettle. Refused CN in car, sling or feeding to sleep.
BT 6
NW 10, 10:30, 11, 12, 1:30, 2 (fed)
WU 4:30, shh pat for 1.5 hours.....didn't go back to sleep and all up at 6.
He is well, pretty happy when he wakes.....but he hides tiredness well. I'm really happy with the on night feed but the early waking in particular is breaking me. He self settles (unless OT) for naps and BT. I don't know whether to ditch the dummy but I'm a bit reluctant as I go back to work soon and it's a great thing to help the childminder when I'm not there.
Any thoughts?
PS thank you again for the words of support during the twins illness....they meant a lot to me!!
-
I should say....he is now 8 months, eating well (baby led weaning but he's good at it!), a bit of a cough and a sniffle but nothing drastic. Feeding well, gaining weight. To resettle over night I do dummy and shh pat. He's still in our room (inertia!) but needs to move into his as has outgrown his crib. I've tried feeding at the early wakes and it makes no difference. This morning he didn't get a BF until after breakfast as (lovely) DH took him downstairs at 6 with the twins so I could lie in bed and sulk for a bit!
The only other thing is that he is starting to crawl, and I remember that unsettling the twins, but this dreadfulness has been going on for a week. I really don't know what to do with the first nap when he wakes up this early - if I stuck to 3:15 A he would be going back down at 7:45!!! Ridiculous!! But similarly if I do manage to resettle him in the morning it will take about an hour and he will then just nap for 20 mins or something.
I would tolerate a 5:30 WU (although 6:30 would be better!) but I want just one WU for his night feed. He is still pretty hungry when it comes so we aren't ready to drop it yet (I am having AWFUL problems with blocked ducts as well so keen to keep it!) but I now won't feed before 2, and that seems to work for both of us......
-
No advice, but hugs. You must be exhausted! What is he like when he wakes?
-
I am miserable. He is full of beans when he wakes up!!!
-
So glad the twins are so much better :) sounds like your littlest is too? Or still under the weather with that sniffle? Do you feel like the dummy has become a problem? Do you think he's anywhere near being able to replug himself? Mine never took them but I've heard other mums talk about putting several dummies in the be cot to increase the chances that LO will find one and replug themselves it the night, wdyt?
He does look quite OT to me, all those short naps and NWs... I know my DS especially would get really hyper happy crazy when OT, which of course made it all the more difficult to settle, and he'd seem happy enough but actually be really tired. How do you feel yours is right now? Do you think he's in that crazy land or just LSN and UT? One thing I used to do with that first nap was to fix the time of it, so that whatever time they woke, I'd shh pat or whatever until the time I'd decided to get them up, and then do the first nap at the fixed time. If they woke early it might end up an OT nap but might get a resettle out of it. But I did find that fixing the time of the first nap helped to put a cap on the really early wakings, as well as helping to create more stability in the routine. Something to consider?
-
I think he prob is OT - he napped 2.5 hours on Friday and we had a much better night and I even managed to resettle the 5am wake til 7. Then he slept 10:30 - 12:30, 3:15 - 4 then BT 6:30. So I was optimistic for a good night....but instead he woke up at 3:30 :o and didn't settle til 4, then awake 4:30 til 5, then up for the day at 5:30. He looks shattered but I am going to keep him up til 9 and try and set that as first nap for a couple of days then work towards maybe 9:30.
I don't know what to do about the dummy - it works brilliantly for when he goes off to sleep at bedtime but if I try to use it when I am resettling him he has started batting it away. I have to hold his hands to put it in but once it is in he will suck it and he settles down. But if he is wide awake like he was at 3:30 then it just enrages him.
I'm just lost. He is really tired, I'm sure, but if his A is less than 3:15 then he will do 45 mins and I can't resettle him. I've got bedtime as early as I can. I NEED him to sleep a bit better, I'm so tired and run down...... :'(
-
(((hugs))) it's horrible being so tired! Looking at the example routine Heidi posted, I wonder whether you need to cap that CN further and even push BT later in order to get a longer, more settled night?
-
Aaarrrgh I don't know if he is OT or UT!!!!! He is always shattered by bedtime.
Yesterday he woke up at 5:50, napped 9:30 - 11, 2:15 - 3:30 and went to bed at 6:40. Then he got up at 4. I'll keep him up til nursery run but I would imagine he will go to sleep straight away in the car.
This is really getting me down. Everything is just all over the place and I don't feel I can tweak anything as I don't know where to start!
I think maybe he is old enough now that I have to pick an ideal routine and just stick to it. I would rather have the short nap in the morning as I isually take the twins out in the morning.
So......
Ideal WU is 6
Nap 9:30 - 10:30
Nap 2 - 4
BT 7
What do you think?
-
I haven't read back over the thread but I think it might make sense to think of him as having been OT but catching up v quickly and getting UT, within the space of a day or two. ((Hugs)))
-
I'm by no means an expert on routine, but I'm wondering if that morning nap might go any later?! It's close to wake time compared to the rest of the day. What kind of A time to bed does he like? Maybe you could push everything back a bit so that he's not up for so long just before bedtime?
-
He loves going to bed at BT, would definitely do it on 3h I reckon. I like the sound of having less time between last nap and BT! Yesterday he napped 9:00 - 10:00 in the car (had to go to out of town shop so not much I could do about it!), 1:30 - 3:30 (with a lot of resettling), had an ok night but up at 5.
Anne, I think you are right that he does seem to cycle quickly between OT and UT. He was up at 5 today and dropped off in the car at 9 (I woke home bringing him in so only 10 mins) but that's a 4h A and he managed it easily. I will try and put him down at 10 for a short nap (because he had that 10 mins in the car and I need to have a shower!) and see how we go from there.
I would quite like the first nap to be later and shorter - 10 - 10:45 or so as then he could have it in the sling and it would let me get out earlier with the twins. If he can do a 4 h A then that would be ok with a WU of 6. So the day would be....
WU 6
Nap 10-10:45
Nap 2:30 - 4
BT 7
How does that look? That is only 13 hours of sleep in total....but I think that's about what he is getting at the moment anyway! And if he was tired he could nap later or maybe go down earlier for the PM nap, we are nearly always home in the afternoon so it's easy.
I must get this better. The twins are up all night at the moment as well - have to start rapid returning them as we have had them sleeping with us a lot while they have been ill. Little twin is havibg nightmares about witches eating people - where do they get it from?!? Poor thing!
-
Sorry, I'm so rude!!!! Thank you all so much for your help!!!! Thought I'd put that at the beginning but evidently not!! :o
-
You're not rude at all! And yes, that sounds good. He can always sleep longer for the afternoon nap, can't he?
-
Hey how's it going? Not an expert on LSN but 13h doesn't sound too off the scale for LSN LOs, I think... Have you tried the routine you posted? Hope everyone is well again? :-*
-
The good news is....everyone is well (ish). The bad news.....my new routine is backfiring and he is now not really napping at all, his NW is terrible.....and no real difference to the EW. I think the combination of pushing that first nap back and capping it was a bit too much, too soon. I am currently feeding him for the second time tonight - just desperate to get him back to sleep after an hour long NW. Tomorrow I'll do some sling napping and try and get him caught up as I think he is OT. Then, when I start again, I'll do it a bit more gradually!!!!
-
Poor thing, hope you got him caught up today. Maybe it was a bit much after the illness?
-
I think it was! So....today we have aimed for an A of 3h30 and he did a 1h10 (I woke him) and a 2h (lots of resettling). 3h30 to BT so only in bed at 7:30.....so we will see. He's had lots of A, lots of sleep.....so maybe it will be ok!!!
:-* to you all. If he looks refreshed in the morning I will try again!
-
Aw - glad everyone is well, hope you manage to catch him up from that OT :-*