BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: First mum on January 11, 2016, 06:26:40 am
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Hi All, Just after a bit of advice/support with the gw technique.
My little one is 20 months and has not self settled for sleep since starting daycare 8 months ago. Prior to this she self settled for all naps. We had loads of illness on starting daycare so the regression started there and unfortunately they were not following the same process as we were and my lo needed more and more help to get to sleep. Up until 3 days ago she was fed to sleep at night time (not an issue, just getting ready to wean) she is doing well with the change. Unfortunately I have replaced the prop of the boob for my finger. The amount of time it is taking her to settle is reducing, with only 10 minutes tonight but I'm not sure where to from here.
Her main nap of the day is at 12:30 and she holds my finger here too for max 10 minutes, but is generally pretty sleepy once I have finished singing and placed her in the cot.
Whenever I try and remove my finger she immediately starts performing and crying and saying cuddle mummy cuddle. This stops and she lays her head back down as soon as she has my finger. I am sitting on a stool beside her cot.
I read the info on gw but am unsure of the next (tiny) step I need to take. I've tried talking to her out of context about sleeping and reasoning with her when she is in the cot. It's only new at bedtime as I mentioned above but it is progress at nap time. After I took her out of daycare I was having to pat and stroke, then I reduced to my hand resting on her lower back and then bum. The next thing I tried was my hand resting beside her and that is when she grabbed my finger.
I'm doing the same process for both bedtime and nap. Cuddle and humming for a few minutes, then I stand and cuddle and sing her our song then kiss and into bed.
Any help would be appreciated.
TIA
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Hi there, does she sleep through at night once asleep? Does she have a lovey to cuddle?
I'd try next removing the finger but sitting next to cot but just using your voice to reassure...so every time she gets upset or wants finger just say, sleepy time now lay down etc and keep repeating. After a few nights move further away and keep inching towards the door.
It could just be a bit of SA rearing its head x
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Thanks Haribo, yes she sttn. We now only have nw when something is going on or she is unwell. She does have a lovey which I will try and pay more attention to.
Would you suggest the same approach for her day nap?
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That's good it's not affecting night sleep :)
What's her day look like routine wise?
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wu is pretty consistent at 5am and we resettle till at least 6. We are hoping a gro clock will help with this starting this weekend.
Nap at 12:30 till 2-2:30 into bed at 7 asleep by 7:30
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Might be worth pushing the nap a little see if it helps with EW and settling quicker at nap time, we pushed to get to 1pm by 2 yrs old.
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Thanks Haribo, she settles for her sleep in less than 10 minutes but more like 5, she really is ready for the nap.
I thought I'd try the next step in the gw today at her lunch nap and it was simply awful!! :'( After her 2 days at daycare she is usually pretty tired so I thought I be safe to try and put her down early. We did the normal wind down but she asked to lie down mid song. I popped her in the cot and sat beside on the stool and finished the song, leaned in and gave her a kiss and lifted the side. I sat down and she immediately started to fuss asking for a cuddle (this is her asking to be touched). So I started "shush baby, sleepy time". She was tired as she was fussing while still lying down. This went on for a few minutes but just got worse from there, initially her cry started to amp up but then changed to an attention cry so I just said the same thing. She was up on her knees and giving a good cry now so I changed to "shush baby, lie down, sleepy time" she did listen but was getting pretty wound up, started to hiccup with the crying and twisting her body (tired sign) eyes rolling but she is too upset now, I'm raising my voice a bit but she can't really hear me.
15 minutes and I pick her up as she is too upset. I wipe her face and give her a cuddle. She is having trouble talking but I manage to figure out she is asking me to sing. So I tell her I'm going to pop her back into bed and she can cuddle Niki (cudley) and mummy will sing. So I sang like 5 verses of her song with intermittent humming and the occasional "shush you cant hear me if your crying". I'm not touching her at all, but my face is right beside the cot.
Eyes rolling everywhere and she finally managed to nod off, but is making that horrible gasping sound in her sleep she was so upset. Not sure if I will get my usual 90 minutes today.
Now I can't stop crying and I feel absolutely awful. I didn't expect her to get so upset so quickly. If I had of stroked her head or rubbed her back she would have been asleep in seconds. I know its important to be consistent but she was just too upset and needed a cuddle. How do I do this again let alone at bedtime?
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Bedtime was the same :'( became hysterical after about 10 minutes and was a lot harder to calm down. Such a change from no tears at nap and bedtime to this. I know its important for her to self settle again but this is really not pleasant. I also have achieved anything as had to revert back to old habits to calm her down and get her to sleep.
Not sure if something else is going on?? You mentioned SA above and it got me thinking. She has been really clingy for about 2 weeks and today was no exception. Always asking for cuddles, but as she uses this word so much sometimes it means "up" "help" "I wanna see" or she is upset or not sure of something. I do my best to reassure and when I have picked her up she doesn't want a cuddle.
I thought now was the right time to tackle this, we are illness free, she has all her teeth and she is sleeping well for her day nap and between 10.5-11 at night. We have also put the Gro Clock in her room tonight in the hope of stopping the 5am blip.
I really don't know what to do??
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Oh bless u honey it's so hard when they get upset, there is nothing wrong with a quick cuddle and back into bed before she gets hysterical. It's really up to u with regards to carrying on, if she settles in a few mins holding your hand and sleeps through then that's not really too much of a big deal, if she was waking every couple of hours then I would say she had become more dependant on you being with her for sleep.
You will know the difference between her being really upset to trying it on, if it's trying it on then stick to it but if you feel she really needs your help you can always try again in a few days/week x
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Thanks Haribo, I did think it started well, she really wound up but then it totally changed to a real attention cry and more noise so in my head I was thinking this is good. But then it just got worse and worse. I probably should have intervened earlier than I did.
She has woken every 30 minutes since I put her down tonight and really upset but not communicating with me, she refused dinner and got really upset with hubby after her bath so am guessing there is something more going on. We gave pamol at the last blip so hopefully she will get some restorative sleep now. We also had the Gro Clock on in there and the light was quite bright so not sure if that was contributing.
I'll see how she goes over the next day or so and will update you with how we go.
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You can turn the clock face to dim blue light or totally off, not sure if you knew that!?
Sounds like she might be coming down with something bless her x
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Thanks, I hadn't read the instructions correctly and thought 1 was the lowest setting. Have changed to zero this morning.
After turning it off she slept through until 4 and resettled till 7. We have woken this morning with the start of a summer cold :-\ Its always the way isn't it??? Will there ever be a right time to tackle this??
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My DS likes the clock blue light on but once he's asleep I turn it away from his face....
Oh bless maybe it was the gold coming on making her clingy, maybe try in a week or so gently and see how it goes. Do you play hide and seek much or pretend sleeping games in her room? We did that a lot also I'd nip out the room and then come back after a few seconds. x
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Hi Haribo, the cold turned into an ear infection so we have almost finished a course of antibiotics. I'm still staying with her until she falls asleep. Her lunch nap is about the same taking 1-2 minutes and the bedtime is pretty consistent too at 30 mins. Some interesting behaviour at bedtime and I am really trying to stay quiet and not intervene but its hard :P
We are also getting some pretty fierce hair pulling which she would only do when feeding but has started doing it a bit during the day and def more when settling at night. I am putting it down to tiredness but will keep an eye on it.
We do play quite a bit in her room with her and her dollies having a sleep in the cot and I pop out and do a quick job and then come back. She is still needing a bit more reassurance and cuddles during the day so will wait until after her daycare days next week and start to try and reduce my interaction after that.
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Oh poor thing ear infections suck, glad she's on the mend. My DS had a phase of headbutting the floor when he was tired, thankfully grew out of it.
I think your plan sounds good, she might respond better to gradual withdrawal now not feeling rubbish x
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So we are ear infection free and am going to start the gw again. I think we have a bit of separation anxiety going on as she self weaned last Tuesday (6nights ago) :-[ not sure how I'm feeling but everyone said you can feel really all over the place so am rolling with it.
The last 3 nights have been a bit yuck at bedtime and I think I am intervening too much verbally. After about 20 minutes of being nice and calm with the usual wind down wriggles going on she becomes a bit crazy and I've been telling her off "lie down its sleeping time" this is then followed with a battle of wills as "i don't want to" is our favourite phase or just an outright "no". I've been leaving the room for a timed 5 minutes and then coming back in and we start all over again. Its taking about 50 minutes for her to fall asleep. We are having some really hot nights, all our efforts to cool her room down and its 28-29 degrees at bedtime so am guessing its just too hot to sleep. We are also capping her day nap at 1h45mins from this week as she was pulling 2hour plus last week. The childminder has said she only had 50 mins today so we are going for an early bedtime tonight anyway.
My aim tonight is to have my hand gently resting on her lower back and with no talking.
Any other suggestions? What next and when?
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OK so 50 minutes but she seemed so wound up despite a short night 9.5 hours and only 50 minutes nap at the child minders compared to 2 hours at home. We have just had a big family weekend away with rubbish sleep.
Our routine, dinner, cool bath, 3 bedtime stories in a dim room. Night dad, quiet cuddles with mum when we talk about Mr Sun and that I'm going to stay in the chair till she is asleep. Goodnight to Mr Sun, sing her lullaby, into cot, kisses to her cuddly, kisses and I love you and I sit down with my hand resting on the side of the cot. The next 40 minutes is like watching a zoo performance, she is all over the cot, hands and knees, jumping, throwing cuddly. Whenever she stood up I'd remove my hand and she immediately turns on the tears "cuddle mummy" this is her asking to be touched. So my no talking goes right out the window as I say "if you want cuddles you need to lie dow" and she launches herself into a prone position saying "ready". At about the 40 min mark she got quite upset again and standing up so I lay her down and then I get "no no no" she is pretty tired by this point so i start to shush intermintently still with my hand on her back. More flipping side to side back to front and finally asleep almost 60 minutes after going in the cot.
Where am I going wrong. This is about a week now of really playing up in the cot at bedtime. Prior to this was just normal stretching an wriggling for 20-30 minutes. Am I missing something? Is she playing me?
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Hi there sorry didn't get to reply sooner, how was your night? It sounds a bit like OT behaviour if she can't settle down. What times WU and BT?
I think you need to perhaps just say minimal like "sleepy time now" no mention of cuddles etc. It sounds very hot so that's probably not helping either.x
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Hi Haribo, wake-up today was 5:45 and I did ebt of 6 due to rubbish sleep last night and short nap. She was asleep at 7. I'll try tomorrow night to just say "sleepy time now" and see how we go.
Thanks for the hand holding!
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Not a too bad night then really is she napped as well! It's so hard when they just won't give in and you know they are tired.
No probs I'll hand hold as long as u need it :) xx
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Night was pretty good, she woke at 2am when the temp dropped. I covered her with a sheet and walked out!! She woke again 20 mins later and I knew she needed another layer. She asked for a drink and I tucked her in again. Just walking out the door and she said cuddle mummy. I said shush shush sleep time baby and left 😀
So pleased!! She woke at 5:55. Fingers crossed for tonight!
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Awhh bless her :) good night then x
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Tonight was still an hour but seemed calmer??? Heaps less from me. I did as you suggested and she totally understood.
She is still doing somersaults in the cot, wriggling and doing 360° turns. Gets a bit upset at about 40 mins it's like she doesn't know how to get comfy at this point and is too tired to figure it out. I gave her a couple of extra shushs here but she really is struggling.
Do I just keep doing what I'm doing? Will she figure it out?
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I'd stick with it for a couple of days then if she is still calm move a little further away. She is probably getting OT by the time she settles down but if she's starting to learn to find her own way to get comfy etc then your on the right track. If she's sleeping through too that's a good sign she can do it herself :)
Well done you, keeping consistent is the key and calmness from you means she won't get stressed either xx
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Thanks so much for the support! She woke at 5:55 so another good night.
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Yahey great night :) hope naps and BT go well today xx
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Great day today, she is usually a bit more clingy after 2 days daycare but she was really good. Down for nap at 12 and settled within a couple of minutes. Woke 2:10. Into bed at 7:05 tonight and asleep by 7:30.
She was really good. Loads less wriggling around. Her singing got a bit loud a couple of times so I just said the same thing. No standing at all tonight and she fell asleep resting her back against my hand which was just resting inside the cot. It was also only 24°C in her room tonight compared with 28-29 for the past week.
Feeling really positive. Am gonna hold here for 3 more nights :D
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Fantastic I love a good update. Well done you sticking with it, and she sounds like she's happier too.
Agree stick to same place for few days then move a little, you can go as slow as you like especially if it's only taking her 20 mins or so to drop off. If she knows she's not getting any attention for the standing up, wiggling around etc she will soon get bored.
We still get call backs now for silly reasons and delaying tactics and DS is 3.8 yrs....so it's always ongoing lol. Last nights excuse was his feet were hot so he needed a drink ;D
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Hey there, we have had a couple of good nights. Both nights it has taken her 25 mins to settle and we have had less and less gymnastics. No more standing up and I have moved my hand to be resting against the bars of the cot and she either leans against it or touches it. No more finger holding and she spent a lot of the time tonight lying quietly in the cot not even touching me.
We had a blip night before last because of the stupid dog next door but resettled with no help from me. This morning she woke at 4:50 and I covered her up she resettled for 20 mins and then again for another 20 mins but that was it. Hubby stayed with her and when she started to wind up reminded her she had to wait for Mr Sun.
Otherwise I think we are doing well.
I think I am going to wait until I feel she isn't relying on needing to touch me and then try just sitting beside the cot. Will keep you posted!
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Lovely update :)
Glad things are improving for you x
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Tonight was good. Took 40 mins to settle but......... no hand in the cot ;D
I noticed about 15 mins in she was doing her usual gymnastics and singing that she was not interested in my hand so I took it out and she didn't look for it again. Will try not at all tomorrow and see if she notices ;)
Do the crazy gymnastics settle down? I gave her maybe 3 firm shushes about 35 mins in as she was winding up and talking quite loud, and it was enough to interrup her and she only took a few minutes after that to drop off. At about the 10 min mark I tell her "sleepy time baby, close your eyes". But otherwise am not saying anything.
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Hi sorry for being absent my DS2 decided to appear into this world 10 days early.
I think it sounds like your doing great and the fact she's settling and not needing the hand means she is secure.
The gymnastics do calm down, think it's developmental really and they just calm down.
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Oh congratulations!!! That's wonderful news :D
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Well we seemed to have stalled and gone back a few steps?? Really clingy for the last 2 nights and back to getting really upset because she can't touch me. I ended up putting my hand in the side of the cot last night and she snuggled right beside it and went to sleep, no gymnastics, singing or 360°s which was a first.
We are having to wake her at the 2 hour mark from her day nap but other than the language explosion and interesting tantrums she seems really good.
Any suggestions? Dad is giving it a go tonight as I am heading out with the girls later this week and ultimately we want to be able to share putting her down.
How are things going with you?
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Could just be the language explosion making her more clingy.
See how dad goes, my DS messes loads less for DH. I'd just stick with what your doing if she's clingy then keep moving away a bit and see how it progresses.
Things ok thanks but oh my I had forgotten how much time newborns take up lol! Can't believe he's not even due till tomor and he's been here a week already. x
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Hi Haribo, back again :( we were doing really well. No hand in the cot and we were almost 2 feet from the cot heading towards the door. The last 3 days we seem to be back at getting super upset again at bedtime and today it happened at her day nap too. I'm always a bit soft on her on a Wednesday as she is tired after 2 days in care (which she sleeps rubbish) but the really clinginess is only when its time to sleep. I haven't noticed her being more than normal during the day.
I know she is a sensitive soul and is very cautious and easily frightened but am really unsure of what more I can do to get me out of the room at night.
We are back averaging between 20-40 mins for her to fall asleep, less gymnastics and more singing at the moment, but I guess that is just the language.
I only shush her now when the singing turns to shouting or if she decides to play long jump in the cot :P At the 10 minute mark I am telling her the usual "sleepy time baby, go to sleep" and again at the 20 minute mark if she is still actively playing. If she is just lying quietly moving her arms and legs or softly talking to her lovey then I just stay quiet.
Can you think of anything else or do you think this is just what its going to be for the next wee while?
How is everything going with you? How is DS1 coping with the new addition?
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Hi there, how does she cope if you were to try sitting outside the bedroom door or trying walk in/walk out?
It still sounds a bit developmental with all the singing etc.
Thanks for asking, DS1 coping loads better than I thought he would, loves his baby brother and says he only has kisses for him now (which then makes me tear up lol hormones) I'm just attempting get dressed at 10.15am lol x
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Oh how lovely! Getting dressed is overrated!!! What is the age difference between them?
Before we tried the gw I tried leaving the room for about 3 days, setting the clock to 1 minute and then going back in. She became so upset so quickly gasping for breath so after about 3 mins I stopped. Calmed her down and then stayed in the room with her.
Last night and lunch nap today no problem. I did cuddle and sing for a bit longer last night until she felt really calm in my arms. Was about 10mins in total then 20 mins just sitting on my chair. Only told her once to shush. Lunch the same. Told her to stop mucking about and close her eyes. And she's out.
Am gonna move the chair tonight, close again to the door and see what happens. I'm still almost 2 feet from the cot so figure another foot should be good.
Would you suggest switching to wiwo?
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Ha ha I find it hard to chill out with the getting dressed but you have to :)
There is 3 yr 9 months between them so DS1 understands a bit but DS2 is waking him at night so it's a pain.
Sounds like a plan moving the chair, I'd prob carry on with GW but maybe move steps a bit quicker. Give it 3 days then move again, once you get near the door you could move to sitting outside the door just using your voice.
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Hi firstmum,
(Congrats to you Haribo!!! Hope you're doing well! haha, and I have yet to get dressed at 1:00 in the afternoon!!) Btw, when you got to 1pm for your DS's nap when he was 2yo, what was BT and WU?
Firstmum, My DS had the same antics at nap and bedtime lately with similar routine (minus the weaning, holiday, and daycare). Congrats by the way with weaning! I know it can be bittersweet. DS is taking forever to fall asleep at night still. DS also got extremely upset when I would leave the room at those times he needed me. I'm following to see how DD does for you... how was last night?
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Hey Ginger,
Bedtime was OK, about 30 mins but got a bit overtired towards the end which is when I get into trouble. Lots of gymnastics jumping around. She listens when I tell her to stop and lay down. It's so hot here at the moment that I put it down to that. If she misses her own window to fall asleep, that's when she struggles. I ended up leaning out of the chair and touching her foot as she had started crying. 2 mins of touched her big toes and she is asleep.
She handled the further distance for basically the whole time until right at the end. Am gonna do as Haribo suggested and do this again for 2 nights and then move. She is stringing words and sentences together so lots going on for her.
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Thanks ginger it's so hard with 2 kids lol!
From memory DS napped around 1pm for 1.5/2 hours BT was around 7.30 and WU around 6/6.30.
The language leap played havoc with our BT but good going tonight :)
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Oh Haribo just had to share!!! We went completely pear shaped and I was back to my hand resting on the side of the cot. I honestly thought it was never going to change. Last night when I put her in the cot I told her I was going to the loo, no problem playing and singing away as she usually does but at about the 10 min mark I could hear her bouncing in the cot. I stood in the doorway and shushes her, unfortunately I gave her a fright so we got a bit upset. But with me in the room she was asleep from that point in less than 10 mins 😀
Tonight same thing but I thought I'll just listen and see. I figure she had had a great day sleep we could deal with a bit of a late night. Anyway after about 10 mins again she called out "mum where are you" I crept down the passage and from the end away from her called "shush I'm on the loo go to sleep" and she did!!!!
She blinded after 15 mins and was a little upset asking for a cuddle but I just treated it like I use to treat her new, straightened her blankets, stroked her head and told her to go ask to sleep. Ran my hand down her side stroked her tummy and left.
I know I have probably totally jinxed myself as its only the first night..... but she also self settled for the first time at child minders (i have no probs) yesterday. 😀 would you suggest I tell her I'm going out to the lounge or keep with the loo for now?
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Oh wow well done you :)
I'd keep going with what your doing for a few days then change to going to the lounge or just going to do a few jobs I'll pop and check on you in a minute type thing!
Even if u jinxed it, you know she can do it x
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Well it was bit of a jinx but not a total failure. I'm still leaving the room to go to the loo and I try and shush from outside but the mama mantra gets pretty intense. I've been going back in reassuring and then sitting on the stool by the book case. My phrase I've used for awhile now is "shush baby it's sleep time" and nothing else.
Am I confusing her doing a mixture of the 2? If I say I'm leaving should I say I'm coming back? I'm going back in about 15 mins later because she will sing and say goodnight to every toy in her room, it's like when she finishes that she is then looking for my presence. It's then about another 15 mins and she is asleep.
We have a bit of a summer cold but other than a bit of a gunky nose it's not affecting much so I'm keen to keep moving. Would love to hear your thoughts.
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I used to say sleep time now time to go to sleep, mummy is going to do xyz and I'll come back and check on you in a few mins. If DS shouted I'd go back straight away if no shouting is go back after 20 mins and he'd mostly be asleep. As we got further on with it, I'd shout I'll be there in a min I'm just finishing xyz so time to be quiet and just delay it a few mins.
I think your doing great and if your getting further away its progress and not taking too long. She is feeling secure that your following through what you say you'll do and then it will be easier to accept sleep without u x
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Thanks for your help!! Last night was great. It took an hour but no crying or call backs. When the singing got a bit loud I shushes from the door an said my usual phrase.
Tonight same thing, it's been 30 mins an I can hear quiet "ring a ring a rosey" drifting through the door 😁
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How sweet hearing her sing. I'd say 30 mins is a normal toddler kind of wind down chill out to sleep amount of time too.
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It really is sweet. I figure I can't make her go to sleep so am trying my best to be patient. I think tonight was 45 mins so an improvement. Will see how we go over the next week.
How are things going with you?
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There is only so much u can do and providing the right environment is best u can do! Hopefully she will settle quicker soon.
Oh things are ok but this one is hard work as got reflux so spend my life walking lol x
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Ouch reflux is hard!! We are doing OK. I get a couple of great nights. Out the door and a couple of shushes through the door, then we have daycare and feels like we go back. Travel and holidays away and poor thing is tired. Pretty clingy during the day too and only mummy will do!! Makes for a bit of a grumpy mummy!!! Please tell me we will get consistency??!!
Have said to hubby when we get 5 nights in a row he can book a night away 😀
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I'd book the night away anyway get yourself a treat! I assume you mean a night away got you both not just him ;D
It does get better and more consistent the older they get big they always have little regressions..,the good work your doing now though means when they regress it goes back to normal easier. Daycare always used to throw our nights off but once DS1 got older again it improved as think they understand you will return etc x
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Lol yes night away for both of us!!
Yeah I figure I've just got to keep trying to get out the door but be patient on the nights she needs me.
How are you doing? How old is bubs now?
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Do it get it booked grandparents (or whoever) can cope for a night or 2, my mum likes the challenge lol!
I had literally 4 months of sitting on the stairs for varying lengths of time when DS1 was younger...now I can just shout back up the stairs if he needs anything ;)
I'm good thanks for asking, bubs is 6 weeks and still a grumpy old man crying a lot lol, he does ok at night so that's the one saving grace! xx