SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Viross5000 on January 12, 2016, 10:05:56 am

Title: Overtired 8mo
Post by: Viross5000 on January 12, 2016, 10:05:56 am
Hi everyone, long time lingerer on these forums which I find have so much useful advice! I am getting something wrong (perhaps many things) with my 8mo at the minute, and I can't work out how to fix it! He is transitioning from 3-2 naps. Naps have never been long and that's causing me difficulties with only 2 naps. I am trying to extend naps and need help. Night time sleep is not good either! I stopped giving a night feed about two weeks ago because I realised it was making no difference to wake ups/settling. But he is waking many times during the night. We have a white noise app on a function that switches on when he makes a loud enough noise and that usually settles him, but it must only be lightly because often it switches on three or four times before lo actually settles fully and doesn't make any more noise. As a result I'm finding that he's very tired during the day. I'm also finding that he's very tired before bedtime.

Here is roughly what our day looks like:

A 6.30- 7 (we wake him if he hasn't woken because we have found it very difficult to settle him during the day if he sleeps on)
BF 7.05
Solids 8.20 ish
Sleep: put down between 9.30 and 10 ish (earlier if he seems very tired)
A 10.15/10.40 ish usually only 30-40 mins, yesterday I snuck in on 25 mins and put white noise on and he went 70 mins
Bf 11.00
Solids 12.30/1
Sleep: put down about 13.30
Awake: 14.30 ish (sometimes shorter, rarely longer unless in pram)
Bf 15.00 or as soon as he wakes up
17.00 ish Catnap - I am still finding this necessary but it has to be I move as he wont settle in cot
Solids 17.45
Bf 19.00
Bed 19.30

He settles well at bedtime, complains a bit during the day for naps but usually settles within 5-10 mins. But he wakes up crying from his short naps so I'm sure they are not long enough, and generally I feel like he is tired - quick to get grumpy, rubbing eyes, yawning, falls asleep in car even on short journeys (to the point that I've avoided using it the last few days whilst I'm trying hard to sort him into a proper nap schedule). We are keen to keep bedtime at 19.30 because then my husband actually gets to see him but if it's really important I could move it forward.

He doesn't have a dummy which we stopped at 5 months, but is quite reliant on the white noise for sleep when in his cot which we have used since he was very young. Would welcome thoughts, particularly on any glaring problems with our routine, how to extend naps, and whether the very frequent night wakings are due to ot.  I want to get it right for him and am feeling awful that I can't seem to.
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: trimbler on January 13, 2016, 20:30:59 pm
Hi there and welcome to BW forums :)

I'd tend to agree that he's probably OT, those short naps and a day ~13h is probably more than he can comfortably handle. If he's waking a lot in the evening, ie during the first few hours of his night sleep, that's a classic indicator of OT, as is early waking in the morning. I understand why you want to keep him up for your DH but can I suggest that you get him to bed a bit earlier for a few nights to try and help him catch up on sleep, and then once he's sleeping better, start shifting his whole day later, so he wakes up later and then can stay up to see Daddy?

I have to say, that white noise app sounds great :)

If you could post what actually happened on a recent day, rather than an 'average' routine, it may be easier for us to suggest timings for you to try. Without this information, I'd suggest aiming for him to be up for 3h before his first nap, so you'd start winding him down a bit earlier, however long it takes, and aim for him to be asleep at the 3h mark. Let me know what happens... If he does a short nap, try to resettle him as you did the other day or however he needs you to - that seemed to work well. If he can't resettle at all, get him up but try to make the second A time a bit shorter, or he'll likely become more OT as the day goes on. Since he settles independently, I'd even use the pram to get a longer second nap out of him if the first one ends up being short - just whilst you're trying to help him to catch up on OT, as a nice long nap, however he gets it, can help to 'reset' him and stop that OT building up. Be aware that moving naps are rarely quite as restorative though as non-moving naps, but if it's a choice between a second short cot nap or a long moving nap, I'd go for the latter at this point, to try and break that OT cycle.

How long is his 3rd CN? In order to bring BT earlier and thus lengthen his night, you could try making it a bit shorter, especially as you rightly say that he should be moving towards dropping it, I'd say by around 9mo at the very latest.

Does that sound like a plan for now? Please don't feel awful, I know exactly what you mean but it sounds like you've done really well in giving him the tools he needs to sleep, it's just hard to break out of these OT cycles and when you're sleep deprived yourself it's often useful to have a fresh set of eyes, so I'm glad you decided to make your first post on here after 'lingering' for so long :-*
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: Viross5000 on January 14, 2016, 22:29:53 pm
Thank you so much for offering help. I've kept a record of today's sleep. I did try and do bed a little earlier but somehow ended up not as early as I hoped. A couple of points from your advice: 1) I have never been able to resettle him once he properly wakes from naps. The minute he wakes I know I'm done for. The white noise essentially works as a w2s technique I think. Me going in stirs him a bit and the white noise resettles him. 2) three hours in a morning feels really difficult to achieve. He is soooo grumpy. Keeping him awake until 9.20 before I started to try and settle him was a challenge. I start seeing cues by about 8.30.  I feel like it's because he's not having great nights, but as a result it all feels a bit circular - I have to put him down earlier than I'd like because he's really tired which means he needs three naps, which aren't very long, which leads to a not-great night again etc etc etc. ,

A: 6.20 ish, settled himself back to sleep
A: 7 (woken by DH)
S: 09.30 (was difficult to keep him awake this long - Took about ten mins to settle once in cot which is quite long for him.  09.55 w2s with White noise).
A: 10.20
S: 13.00. Settled very nicely.
A:13.40 tried for 15 mins to settle again. Failed!
S: 16.40 in pram after failed attempt in cot.
A: 17.00 (woke by himself when I stopped moving)
S: 19.25   

In case it helps, here's yesterday's in much less detail

A: 6.40
S: 9.35 (I have a class on a wed am so it's the only morning I don't do first nap in cot. He was VERY tired by 9.35 - it was meant to be earlier but there was a nappy incident that took a long time to sort out😷!)
A: 10.05 😖
S: 13.00
A: 14.00
S: 16.15 (in pram)
A: 17.15
S: 19.45 (took an unusually long time to settle).

Sorry, ridiculously long post!

Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: trimbler on January 15, 2016, 13:38:58 pm
Thanks, that's really helpful, keep them coming as this will really help with the bigger picture... Btw that was no way a ridiculously long post, you should see some of mine :P

Am I right in thinking that the white noise w2s works pretty well? Do you think you could use that more, especially whilst we're trying to break the OT cycle? I understand what you mean about being too tired from the bad nights to manage 3h in the morning, if you don't think he's quite ready for that then perhaps try 2h 45 to start with, but I do think that part of it is that he just has to get used to a longer A time and then he should start to be able to take longer naps, especially with the w2s white noise. Could you use it 2, 3 or even 4 times in a nap, depending on how long he usually stretches? Another possibility is whether having white noise on continuously might help him? We still use continuous white noise for naps and nights, it has the added advantage of blocking out other noises.

Perhaps concentrate on stretching out that first A time and using white noise to get a longer first nap. If the pram works really well then have a go at using that for the second nap if you get a rubbish first nap, so that he can catch up. Once you've got a better first nap, start working on the second nap in the cot too, you may find that in the meantime you've been building up a better picture of what sort of second A he needs. I only say this because it seems he's a good independent sleeper, so using the pram to help him catch up once in a while shouldn't be a problem really.

And I really would try to get BT earlier, perhaps move dinner earlier if necessary? And try to limit that third nap, even if the previous naps weren't so great - this will help with an earlier BT. Oh sorry that was more related to the day before when he had an hour third nap; yesterday's nap of 20mins might work better - how was the night after that? If he was still OT, then maybe try 20mins third nap again, but with an earlier BT - wdyt?
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: Viross5000 on January 19, 2016, 10:38:06 am
I'm sorry for the slow reply, we went away for the weekend. It's been a weekend of highs and lows!!

Ignoring the two travelling days, where he slept in the car seat a lot, it's been up and down a lot!

A: 06.00  :-\
S: 09.00
A: 10.50   :D :D :D
S: 13.50
A: 14.30  >:(
S: 18.30 (he was strangely overtired, to the point that he wouldn't eat dinner, although did take milk feed, and was horribly upset during bath time etc. )

Terrrrrrrrible night. Awake from 02.00 until 04.00 screaming. Then again at 5 something. URGH.


A: 07.00
S: 09.55
A: 10.30  >:(
S: 13.00
A: 14.35  :D :D
S: 16.55
A: 17.15
S: 18.45 (but woken by loud noise inhotel and only went back down after 45 mins)
Reasonable night.

All the naps were in pram because we were out and about a lot.

In answer to your question about white noise, unfortunately continuous white noise doesn't work and I've only managed to get one nap extension with white noise. I can't work out why!

To add another complication, this week he has learnt to sit himself up from lying, so I've just found him sat up in cot when trying to settle him this morning!

I do think your suggestion of 3 hr awake time in morning is working though. Already he is seeming less tired less quickly and seems to be adapting. I have also tried to cut down catnap which seems to have reduced wakings in evening. Hopefully!  Xx
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: Viross5000 on January 19, 2016, 21:30:43 pm
Thought I'd just add today's. Both naps in cot as I was stuck in waiting for a delivery:

A: 6.50 ish
S: 10.05 (struggled to settle him. Took 20 mins)
A: 10.55
S: 14.15 (really struggled to settle him. Took 30 mins.  Didn't really seem sleepy other than a couple of yawns)
A: 14.55
S: 19.00

We have had difficulties with settling for naps in the cot in the past when he's had a few days of all naps being in the pram. I'm thinking tomorrow I might see how he sleeps in pram in the garden because I'm still not managing to get a decent length nap out of him inhis cot but it's a bit cold to walk the streets for 2 hrs a day!
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: trimbler on January 20, 2016, 20:28:22 pm
Hi there, sorry I've had a busy couple of days, back now! It's hard with travelling isn't it? But well done on sticking to the plan all the same :) IME it could take a little while now to get used to sleeping in the cot etc, if you think that using the pram would really help him to catch up on sleep then by all means use it, just don't do it for too long or it'll be even harder to settle him in the cot again. How did it go today?

Fwiw that Sunday looked pretty good to me really, yes the first nap wasn't so good but you compensated for that by giving him 2.5h second A time and that seemed to suit him well. You then fitted in a nice 20min CN with shorter A times before and after, so that he wasn't OT for BT - shame about the noisy hotel ::)

Just to note, many LOs won't be showing reliable tired signs by this age, and especially if he's going through developmental spurts (ie sitting etc) he may not seem tired but still need to be heading towards nap time. If you have a good solid pre nap routine, you may even find that he starts to yawn as you begin it. So I'd be thinking more in terms of A times than tired signs atm. It may well be that on the last day you posted, he struggled to settle for the second nap because he was actually overtired, after an A of almost 3h following a short nap - wdyt?
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: Viross5000 on January 24, 2016, 08:40:48 am
I'm so demoralised! With your helpful suggestions, we have made huge progress on naps in the last few days. We have consistentky managed at least one nap of over 1hr 15 and on at least three days we have managed two over an hour, and I'm evening managing to get him longer naps inhis cot sometimes.

But night sleeping has not been good at all! Thursday night he woke, crying and inconsolable for nearly two hours from 3.30 - 5.30. Last night he woke at 5.30 and would not be settled again, crying and crying until we eventually accepted it was daytime. which is now going to completely throw out the two nap routine I've been working hard to establish because I can't see any way we can get from 5.30 to bedtime with just two naps.

It's not just the lack of sleep, I find it very upsetting because he's not just awake and playing, he's awake and sobbing, and nothing will calm him. In fact our presence seems to upset him more if anything.  He's fine during the day so I don't think it's teething or there's anything wrong with him.
Title: Re: Overtired 8mo
Post by: trimbler on January 24, 2016, 19:33:53 pm
Oh dear (((hugs))) that sounds hard. Would you mind posting your routine the last few days when the nights were really bad? I wonder whether we can see any patterns... Hard to tell from here, but the kind of night wakings you've described remind me of when DD is teething or something, that sobbing and pushing away etc :-\ Teething can actually be worse at night, it seems to be different for different LOs. I sometimes find that all my DD wants is some teething gel and she'll lay straight back down again. Have you tried medicating at all? I'm still thinking discomfort and/or OT from what you describe - what do you think?