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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: labrodyk on January 14, 2016, 09:13:41 am
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Hello Everyone,
The only thing predictable about my daughter Audrey's EASY is that it is completely unpredictable. we have several issues;
1) Next to none easy-to-read tired signs. No yawning, eye rubbing and no grizzly/crankiness. Except for when we enter her bedroom and she immediately starts crying.
2) Short naps all day, every day. I spend double/triple the amount of time resettling her than she actually sleeps and 95% of the time she won't go back to sleep. I work with a 1.5hr A time given I can't spot her cues aiming for her to be asleep at the 1.75hr mark. She always cries (loud mantra) to sleep, no matter what her A time is. I've tried shorter, I've tried longer...no difference. Then once a week she'll crash for 3 hours to catch up. I shush/pat with varying success, mostly it will at least slightly calm her
3) Night feeds. I've always fed her when she wakes during the night. There is no predictable wakings she could have 3 feeds (1 before midnight, shortly after and early morning) or 2 after midnight (12/1am and 4/5/6am). This leads into our 4th issue;
4) No predictable wake time - completely all over the place. I've tried letting her sleep no later than 7.30am but with a feed at 6am (always falls straight back to sleep and usually on the bottle) she could sleep a further 3+ hours, drink very little on wake up, consequently messing up our entire day. Bedtime is also therefore all over the place. Anytime from 6-7.30pm!
5) She is really fussy with her feeds and drinks nowhere near the volume on the tin. Some days she'll finish a bottle but most days she's either too tired, too distracted or simply not hungry even after 4 hours.
I would absolutely love to help us establish a 7-7 routine but i can't see the wood from the trees. My baby girl has even started falling asleep at bedtime with her eyes OPEN. Scares me to death but I can tell she's tired, i just have no idea how to fix it...
She sleeps in a love to dream swaddle (zip swaddle with the arms up), I've taken away her dummy a week+ ago because she constantly dropped it and now tries to suck her hands through her swaddle. She has music and a loud fan as white noise. She has a comforter/animal blankie, and I've tried to make it as dark as possible with black-out-blinds. I know she can go longer than 3 hours between feeds but her naps aren't long enough and her A times are so messed up we just can't get there consistently however she feeds SO much better with a larger gap. She also has reflux and spits up a lot but we were on a high dose of medication we've since weaned her from to find absolutely no difference to her sleeping and settling.
A sample EASY from today was;
NF: 1.38am
S: 2-5.50am
NF: 5.50am
S: 6.08-7.30 (woke her)
E: not hungry, pushed to ensure she wasn't hungry but drank very little.
A:
S: 9.00 into bed; cried and sucked her swaddled up hands until 9.15. Woke 10.15 (our longest sleep so far). Shush pat and managed to resettle her to sleep by 10.30;
S: 10.30-10.35
^ tried to resettle again until 11.00
A: 11.00-11.30
E: 11.30; almost finished bottle
A:
S: 11.50 into bed; cried and tried to settle for 20 minutes. 12.05-12.45. Tried to resettle until 1.45!
^ saw what I thought were a few subtle tired signs
S: 1.45-2.20pm
E: 2.30pm; drank quite well
A:
S: 3.50 into bed; cried and tried to settle for 20 minutes. 4.10 - 4.28pm. Woke crying. Tried to resettle her until 5.30 with no luck.
A: bath and bedtime routine
E: 6.00. Too tired and I had to push her to drink and stay awake.
S: 6.15 into bed; lay quietly and grizzled until 6.45pm but fell asleep with her eyes open.
I feel SO bad for her and nothing I do works at all. She's such a gorgeous, happy girl who smiles a lot and even rolled from tummy to back today for the first time but we're still all over the place when I thought we'd have found a rhythm by now. Sleeping on the go is just fruitless (naps are 20/30/40 minutes in the pram or the car) so my 3yo DS and I are feeling really trapped too.
Please help. I have absolutely NO idea where to start. I have quite a few posts on BW forums but despite so much assistance we just haven't found any solutions.
Many thanks in advance,
Laura.
x
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Hi Laura, lets see if we can help here.
How old is your DD?
Do you know her temperament?
Does she ever show hunger cues with 1-2.5hr of eating?
There is some good news in there - she can nap through the transition from sleep cycle to cycle as demonstrated by her 1hr nap, so if we can get a routine that suits her, she may fall into a more predictable pattern for you.
If 7-7 is important to you, you can wake her at 7 if she isn't already awake so you're starting your days at the same time. I'd suggest taking her outside in that first A time when the sun isn't as harsh - she's less likely to get burned and her body clock will have the benefit of seeing the sun and knowing its day time.
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Audrey is 14 weeks currently. I tried the temperament quiz but I couldn't get w definitive answer. She's not angel, sometimes textbook but she is generally happy when awake and rarely cries - unless of course we enter her bedroom and it's sleep time. My DS is ridiculously spirited and there are certain traits of that she exhibits (not sleeping on the go, stimulated easily).
As for hunger cues, or any cues, they're all over the place and I don't see her exhibiting much of anything - apart from constantly sucking fists. Yet, when I offer more food she either is completely disinterested or is hungry for 30ml and then refuses it with a smile.
I know she can get through sleep cycles as she's pulled some 2-3hr naps and even 1.5hrs today but I can't get her to do it herself, or consistently.
Today has been purely unbearable and I resulted in giving her the dummy back after taking it away two weeks ago. Her brand new Love to Dream swaddles are practically ruined and each sleep they're drenched in saliva and vomit as she's so desperate to suck that she's gagging and vomiting.
S/ 6.45pm- 1.45am
NF: 1.45; drained bottle
NW: 5.00, must have grizzled and settled as I went back to sleep
NF: 5.40. I tried to offer water; then a small amount of milk but she wouldn't settle. Offered more milk and she fell asleep on the bottle.
WU: 7.38am (could have been slightly earlier)
E: didn't want anything, max 50ml and I tried for almost an hour
A:
S: 8.45am; asleep 9.00 (crying) - 9.30am. Resettled her with shush/pat
S: 9.50am - 10.15. Resettled with shush/pat
S: 10.30am - 12.00
E: 12.00pm. 130ml (left 50ml)
A: car trip. Errands.
S: 1.48pm, asleep 1.54pm - 2.35pm.
^ tried to resettle until 3.15
E: 3.20pm, feed. Drank most of bottle but then vomited it after about 20 minutes. She wouldn't settle at all in my arms and just kept looking for hands to suck on and crying.
S: 4.20pm, into bed and wouldn't stop crying. Offered dummy and she finally closed her eyes. Asleep 4.55 - 5.17! I woke her by entering the room, can't believe it.
E: 6.20 - drank roughly 120ml.
S: 6.45; crying will need to do shush/pat
I'll update with the rest of the night later. I don't know what to do and I'm feeling really upset today so hopefully I don't come across too emotional.
I'm going to re-start the reflux medication just to see if there is any improvement. In the interim, please help. What is wrong with my baby and why can't I get things right!? Feel like such a failure...
I'll take her out in the sun first thing tomorrow. Do you think I should use the dummy again or throw it away and encourage her to self-settle? I'd like to have her self settle but I took it away for a reason - she couldn't keep it in her mouth and I was forever putting it back in. Night sleep improved without it but naps certainly haven't....
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Could you just use the dummy for naps?
Her night looks pretty good there, I'd have just fed at that 5:40 waking, she's tiny and having long stretches for her age anyway. Also wouldn't have been too worried about her not taking much early in the morning at wakeup after the 5:40 feed.
WRT naps, I wouldn't have resettled after the 10:15 waking, just a new A time and start another nap after 1.5hr. Concern would be that she could tack that on to her night.
I think I'd probably not worry so much about resettling for a really long time, especially with a toddler around. It'll be frustrating for you both, I'd maybe try to 15-20min tops then get on with the day rather than spending hours in a darkened room trying to get a tiny baby to sleep. Your job is to provide her the opportunity and the means, you cannot force her to sleep and for your mental health, way better to limit the frustration when its pretty fruitless. When you have successfully tried to resettle, its taken 15-20min so I'd be stopping after that. Its hard to judge A time on long resettling attempts - LO has been awake but maybe had calm moments in there, so easier just to limit it and take WU as the time you stop trying to resettle and go 1.5hr from there.
It doesn't look particularly like reflux is an issue here, but worth ruling it out, I think.
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You're right, thank you so much for the reality check. Your advice is spot on and I'll try my best to keep going.
As for resettling and feeds - should I be aiming for 3/3.5/4 hourly feeds? If I resettle and she does go back to sleep should I be waking her? And if she doesn't resettle so we continue with our day and aim for a 1.5hr A do I feed again right before sleep if close to 3hrs or try for another short nap and wake at 4 hours or let her sleep as much as she wants? Sorry, I'm a little confused.
She was Very OT from yesterday and took an hour to fall asleep at BT; mantra crying, massive pauses of laying quietly, settling noises whilst trying to suck hands. She then woke 2.5hrs or so later at 10.30. I didn't even try to resettle, I just fed her. Another feed at 2.30 and she had difficulty settling after that feed - she didn't cry but heaps of grunting and tossing not around. Woke at 6.35 but she was trying to resettle so she had a little whinge, lay quietly sucking her hands until I got her up at 7.00.
We're heading out today so will just wing all the naps...
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I would just offer milk upon getting her up - the predictability will be important for her. Presuming her weight gain is fine, try not to fall into the trap of wanting her to eat more than she's prepared to. Offering regularly (every 2.5-4hr, as it fits into her day and preferably when she gets out of bed) and letting her take what she needs is perfectly fine for most babies (not all, but that's where the reflux may be relevant if she's regurgitating everything she eats and not gaining, for example).
At the moment, I would let her sleep if she does resettle, but cap the nap at 2.5hr at the most so you're not ending up battling UT/OT cycle. Sleep debt is not such that you have to catch up everything you've missed, just enough to get you back on track so getting sufficient is better than excess.
Hope today works out ok xx
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Hi!! Hope you've had a good weekend :)
So yesterday's napping on the go was horrific. I can't even document it but basically we had HOURS between 20/30/40 minute naps all day even with highway driving. Cried and woke constantly at bedtime. She passed out eventually and I gave her a dream feed at 10.30 and she slept through until 4am, fed and I woke her at 7.30am.
today we had one success with a 2hr nap! No resettling didn't wake fully between cycles. I would just LOVE to find out how I get her to do that consistently?! The rest of the naps were hit and miss, my resettling was fruitless and she went to bed protesting and upset taking almost an hour to fall asleep at bedtime. Would you mind letting me know your thoughts?
WU: 7.30am (woken)
E: 7.40am (100ml)
A:
S: 8.37am; asleep 8.52am - 9.28am
* lay quietly 9.28-9.38am before crying
* pat trying to resettle from 9.40-10.00am
A:
E: 10.30am (90ml)
A:
S: 11.16am; asleep 11.26am-1.30pm (woke happy laying quietly)
E: 1.30pm (110ml)
A:
S: 2.48pm; asleep 3.05-3.35pm
* pat trying to resettle from 3.40-4.00pm
A:
E: 4.30pm (130ml)
A:
S: 4.57; asleep 5.38 after patting her from 5.20. Only slept for 5 minutes.
A: bath
E: 6.00; (50ml)
S: 6.20; asleep 6.58pm.
Protesting, crying, sucking hands to settle.
Her signs are SO hard to read! I thought I picked up some eye rubbing, yawning and grizzliness in the morning and after the 3rd nap attempt. I'm really confused..
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Sorry to read of your not so flash day out :(
S: 8.37am; asleep 8.52am - 9.28am
UT nap - not surprising with the short A time
* lay quietly 9.28-9.38am before crying
If you're going to resettle, do it when she's still quiet - its much easier than once she's upset. Trust me, it won't always be required but it will help her get more sleep and then be better at resettling herself due to not having competing OT and UT in her system.
* pat trying to resettle from 9.40-10.00am
Really good call to stop here, hats off to you for your perseverance, seriously!
S: 11.16am; asleep 11.26am-1.30pm (woke happy laying quietly)
Awesome nap :) This is after 2:25 A time following a short nap. That's a lot at this age but could be a sign that she's a high A time, long nap kind of girl. I'd like to see a more consistent attempt at A times of 1:45ish before jumping this far though, as it may have been a crash nap, from the OT accumulation so lets not read too much into it right now.
S: 2.48pm; asleep 3.05-3.35pm* pat trying to resettle from 3.40-4.00pm
Could overstimulation have been a factor here? Just wondering as otherwise it seems like OT length which is odd given the long nap and short A time.
Then the end of the day was a bit of a write off :( Ok, so I think your A times a wee bit haphazard here and that's making it tricky for all concerned. Also, with that in and out of bed with little more than an hour between through the afternoon, its so hard to tell if the protesting is just "why am I here again" or "I'm tired" or what, yk? Partly witching hour, too, I'm guessing...
Alrighty, what I'm going to suggest is watching the clock, then watching DD - When she wakes, note the time and then work out 1:45 from then. Watch the clock til 10min before that time, then start watching DD for cues. If she is grizzly or upset before then, change activity - more likely boredom, discomfort or some other upset rather than tiredness. If she doesn't show any cues, put her down for a nap at 1:50 A time (so you're watching for cues for 15min in the window when they're most likely to come, least likely to be anything else and sill giving her an age-appropriate opportunity to sleep). If she short naps, reduce A time by 15min, so start watching for cues at 1:20 from when you stopped resettle attempt and PD at 1:35 from then. Is this doable?
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Hi Bec! Thank you so very much for helping us, today we had a success, a half success, a mini fail and then a BT fail. How do you think we went?
WU: 7.15
S: 9.00; asleep 9.07-11.15
E:
S: eye rub at 12.50. In bed 12.55; asleep 1.07-1.43
Rs: ~2.05
S: 2.05-2.12
Rs: ~2.20
S: 2.20-3.05
** I roll DD onto her side facing away from me, one hand on her arm/shoulder the other hand patting her bottom. Problem is, I can't roll her back to her back without waking her. Second resettle I put a wedge under her so I didn't have to roll her. Is that ok?
E: 3.15 (170ml)
A: at the park with DS3. Hurried home for that last nap
S: 4.55. Protest crying but asleep 5.05 - 5.35
A:
E: 6.20
A:
S: 7.10; protest, then lay quietly, trying to settle before getting agitated and crying/fussing.
Finally asleep 8.00pm
What do you think? Am I on the right track? I feel bad about bedtime and the late, short nap but with DS3 (Harry) it's really hard to get them both settled and avoid overstimulation especially without hubby most nights.
Audrey certainly protests the second we go into her room to swaddle and start wind down. It would be nice if she would go down without crying :(
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Definitely looking good in the morning, that first nap was great. The second nap looks UT, perhaps - could just be getting used to the routine though, lets just wait and watch with that nap, it could well extend as you keep up the consistent routine.
That last nap looks OS and probably a bit OT. She may even have picked up on the agitation + hurry and been crying with that, yk? Hard to tell. That's the one I'd probably do in a carrier/wrap at the park so DS can play til he's ready to go and then since its a CN, its not such an issue if not a long nap. Less wrangling of grumpy toddler = less stress for you and less potential for resentment towards DD from DS' POV. Having to stop fun stuff every time little sister needs a nap is not fun :(
I think you're on the right track, stick with it a few more days then we can see some patterns and tweak if needed. You can only do so much, truly, you are human - also, think of all the things you got right today - its really important for we mothers to look on the bright side and strengthen that positive self-talk so we can model it for our kids.
With BT, it might be worth stepping in and helping her if she's been quiet and trying to settle herself for >15-20min - it generally means she's missed her window if you've put her down at a reasonable time and she's taking a while to fall asleep so to prevent OT and help her recognise that sweet spot between UT and OT when its easiest to fall asleep. Understand that may not be possible while putting DS to bed with DH not there.
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Thanks! I'll keep going. I have a feeling this morning could be a write off...she was showing tired signs after an hour and went down quite upset...
My biggest problem with Audrey is her inability to nap on the go. I would have loved to do a pram or carrier nap yesterday at the park but it would have been just like when we were out over the weekend. She just will NOT close her eyes. I can't work it out. I reduce the stimulation, I use the swaddle up and put her lullaby's on my phone. It takes ages and results in serious crying. Is there anything I can do?
Last night and this morning was;
DF: 10.30
NF: 3.00
NW: 6.30. I was prepared to get up for the day but she was screaming so I gave her a quick pat and she went back to sleep.
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30
A:
S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 -
Will update later...
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Do you have a carrier in which she is comfortable and can curl up on your chest? I'd probably not make it obvious you're trying to get her to sleep, just get her comfortable and settled then walk around with her.
FX for the rest of the day.
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I have an ergo 360 and a hug-a-bub! So hard to use when it's 30+ degrees though and she gets quite agitated and upset unless I shush/pat and walk around reducing all the stimulation possible. She doesn't like to just sit and be happy in it. Which coincidentally is like my DS - never content to just sit with me and cuddle or have a sleep with me or anything like that...
Unfortunately today I didn't get a chance to use it anyway... The whole day was a bit whacky! From the top again, it went like this;
Last night and this morning was;
DF: 10.30pm (90ml)
NF: 3.00am (140ml)
NW: 6.30. I was prepared to get up for the day but she was screaming so I gave her a quick pat and she went back to sleep.
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30 (140ml)
A:
S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 - 10.20am
Rs: ~10.30
S: - 10.38am
Rs: ~10.48am
S: - 10.58
E: 11.00 (100ml)
A:
S: *12.13 rubbed eyes. Bed at 12.22; asleep 12.32-2.06. She didn't wake crying and I didn't have the strength to resettle so got her up.
E: 2.15 (110ml)
A:
S: 3.40; crying but asleep 3.53 - 4.34
RS: ~4.55
A: 4.55-5.55
E: 5.55-6.10 (150ml)
Book and cuddles to break up feed to sleep
S: 6.20; still lying quietly at 6.45 so left DS and went to help her and pat her off. 40 minutes later she was still awake, having a chat and a giggle to me. I'd had enough by then and left her to it and she fell asleep with very little whinging at 7.30.
DF: 10.30pm
NW/NF: 2.30am. 2.30; tried to resettle for 20 minutes.
NF: 2.50-3.10 Fed her but she vomited over everything after gagging on the bottle at the end for some reason! So I had to change her and disrupt her.
S: Back to bed at 3.10; asleep 3.43 after a long time patting.
WU: 7.30 (woken)
I only tried to resettle at 2.30 because that second feed is getting earlier and earlier post dreamfeed and I don't know why.
I'm SO exhausted and my back is agony from resettling. I'm obviously doing something wrong despite how hard I try. Thanks so much for the support, it means so much.
Laura x
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S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 - 10.20am
UT - Really important to push through to at least 1:45, I think it may be worth increasing a bit to 2hr - what are your thoughts?
S: *12.13 rubbed eyes. Bed at 12.22; asleep 12.32-2.06. She didn't wake crying and I didn't have the strength to resettle so got her up.
This is a 1.5hr nap, no need to resettle. What are you aiming for?
DF - Is there a reason she's taking less at the DF than any other feed? Just wondering if increasing the DF by 20-30ml would help her sleep that bit further into the night. Keep in mind there's a giant growth spurt at 4 months which she could be starting.
She's having better naps there, I think you can probably reduce the resettling a bit more - I probably wouldn't have bothered at 4:30 - its a catnap, not really much of a drama at that time of day. I'd be inclined to really push through, especially that first A time. Its important not to be scared of OT at nap time - its so much easier to resettle an OT waking than UT, because they're still tired.
I think you may find she's a high A time kiddo - is she waking frequently through the evening after she goes off to sleep? If not, she may just be a LO who likes a long A to bed.
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Thanks for replying!!
Ok, perhaps I'm confused. Should I be putting her DOWN at 1.45/2h or allowing time to fall asleep? I've been watching cues from 10mins before those times and putting down if they appear as quickly as possible but this means she's in bed slightly before 1.45/2h. Could possibly do 2hrs, watching from 1hr50 if you think that might help?
You're right, 1.5hrs was good and she woke happy. Just wasn't sure if they should be closer to 2hrs.
DF: for she takes a big feed before bed then the DF is small. Just like most feeds she's only really having on average 100ml a bottle. This morning I've only managed to get 110ml after that feed at around 3am from 7.30. I'll try and make a bigger bottle but she slows down and stops during the DF so I assume she's had enough!
She does have nights where she wakes after 40 minutes (usually if all she's had all day are catnaps and few of them) but usually no, she'll take forever to go to sleep but then crash out. I saw her wake after 40 minutes last night but she resettled herself reasonably quickly.
ETA:
WU: 7.30 (woken)
E: 7.40 (140ml)
A:
S: 9.15, in bed at 9.20. Cried for 10 minutes until 9.29 and woke at 10.08. Will attempt resettle.
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Could possibly do 2hrs, watching from 1hr50 if you think that might help?
I think that's reasonable given how she's gone the last few days.
1.5hr is restorative - 2 x sleep cycles, no more required than that. If she's napped >1:15, just get her up.
She sounds like she just like that long A to bed, then. Not a bad thing, just useful to know when making a routine. My DS preferred a really long first A and a short A to bed, every LO is different.
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She sounds like she just like that long A to bed, then. Not a bad thing, just useful to know when making a routine. My DS preferred a really long first A and a short A to bed, every LO is different.
What would you suggest for this. Ideally bedtime would fall between 7 and 7.30. If it's just a catnap vs a sleep what would be a reasonable A?
The day has been a bit hit and miss but I think you're right about longer than normal A's. DS was similar (but he preferred short A to bed). I'm just so useless with A times, is fixed naps too early at this stage?
WU: 7.30 (woken)
E: 7.40 (140ml)
A:
S: 9.15, in bed at 9.20. Cried for 10 minutes until 9.29 and woke at 10.08.
Rs: ~10.30
S: 10.30-10.40
A: had to run an urgent errand
E: 11.30
S: 12.30; fell asleep in the car. Tried to transfer but woke and struggled to get back to sleep.
RS: Patting in my arms; put into bed at 1.15
S: 1.15-2.30 so far...
If she needs that long A to bed and I wake her at 2.5hrs sleep ending at 3.45; how do I fit in that catnap? Or do I miss it and push BT to 6.00pm? Eeek
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I decided (maybe stupidly) not to end that nap and she woke at 4.00pm
S: 1.15-4.00
E: 4.05 (120ml)
A: bath. Yawned/rubbed eyes
E: 6.45 top-up (30ml)
S: 6.00; protesting for 40 minutes, of course I intervened but the more I comforted the more distressed she became. I lay my hand on her belly until she finally fell asleep at 6.40.
Tomorrow I have a funeral to attend and my MIL is watching her (and DS) so I doubt she'll have much sleep....
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I reckon she may fall asleep more quickly if you give her 2.5hr to bed - seems to be a trend for her so far.
Some babies do get more upset f you help them - totally fine to leave her if she's happy, just thought she might have been having a bit of a hard time falling asleep but if you're distracting her or upsetting her, just leave her to it if she's fine.
Well, sorry to hear about the funeral. Hope MIL is able to get her a little sleep. Maybe do a 2hr A time and assume a 1.5hr nap and just ask her to PD for naps at whatever times based on when she wakes. DYT that would work? eg. if she wakes at 7am, ask MIL to PD at 9 and 12:30...
That long nap could be a sign she's shaking off whatever OT buildup she had from the short naps and will be ready for a new attempt at the 2hr A time (watching from 1:50). FX for you that tomorrow isn't too bad.
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2.5 A to bed - I can try that. She's woken at 7.20pm after 40 minutes crying (she went down at 6pm pretty distressed crying hard) I thought maybe OT rather than UT but you might be right. She's really struggling to get back to sleep now. I'm patting her, only for her to wake up every 5-10 mins crying.
Will leave instructions for MIL...
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Yeah, it could well be OT, hard to tell :-/ Worst it can do is make her OT at BT (which she already is sometimes and not others) and we know and can reduce A to BT again.
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Ok, so in order to keep A time at 2.5hrs by bedtime should I be nap capping through the day and should I be aiming for a 12hr day? If the catnap doesn't come and the last nap is too far from bedtime - what's the earliest I should put her down
Also; I'm trying to work out how to structure our after bath A. I do offer a feed but should this be done in the dark of her room, out in the lounge followed by books etc to break up the E and S or will that just be overstimulation. I found tonight that she was falling asleep on the bottle at 1hr45A with little lighting in her room but then when I read her a book (which is actually quite hard in the dark! Haha) she must have picked up a second wind and she was wide awake again. Just trying to find that sweet spot without creating a sleep association but also not revving her up.
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Its ok to have her pretty relaxed before BT - your choice, really, what do you see yourself doing when she's 12 months? FWIW, books were too OS for DS until 2.5yo so we just read them during the day, usually straight after a feed so he could wind back down again enough for a nap :P
I think given how long she's taking to fall asleep, its probably worth keeping her calm and sleepy before BT.
12hr day isn't the be all and end all - 13hr day/11hr night is fine and I think manageable.
I'm imagining something like this:
7 - wake
9 - nap
10:30 - wake
12:30 - nap
2 - wake
4 - nap
5:30 - wake
7:30/8 - asleep in bed
OR
4:45 - wake
6:30/7 - asleep in bed
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This is so helpful, thank you. Should I be waking her after 1.5hrs sleep during the day or perhaps no longer than 2hrs just so I can got enough sleep in that she's not OT by bedtime.
She's been rubbing her eyes from 1hr10 A this morning so I hope I'm doing the right thing with the longer 2hr A.
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No, wake her after 2hr if she goes that long, not at 1.5 though. Fine to do a CN for nap 3 if she's had 2x2hr naps, yk?
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Thanks Bec
Unfortunately she was unconsolable from 9am and went down crying at 9.08 until she fell asleep at 9.18 but has woken 30 minutes later at 9.50.
WU: 7.15
Nap: 9.08; absolutely hysterical crying I calmed enough to put her down. Protesting until asleep 9.18-9.50
RS: ~10.20
S: 10.20-11.10
We left for the funeral just before she woke so the rest of the day was whacky!
E
A
S: MIL attempted nap at 1.00pm. Apparently wouldn't settle so she got DD up.
A
S: 2.00pm - 3.30pm
E:
A:
E: 5.40pm. 110ml
S: 6.00pm; big cry but fell asleep at 6.13pm
I know today was off but I'm nervous that the A times are too long. Do you think it could just be an adjustment period or should I pull them back?
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Good morning!
We had a good night last night;
DF: 10.30 (110ml)
NF: 3.25 (130ml)
WU: 6.50
E: 7.00 (110ml, took almost an hour to drink, wasn't interested)
It's only been an hour awake and she's started rubbing her eyes and whinging again...am I keeping her up a whole hour too long?
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No, A time of 1hr is really that of a newborn and opens you up to long happy NWs and/or lots of NWs in the early hours of the morning. This is the hardest A time to push but its also the one that makes the biggest difference to routine and night sleep. You could stick with 1:45 if she's really struggling, that would be normal for her age but she was doing UT naps on that, hence the suggestion of 2hr.
Is she distractable? What happens if you have take her somewhere else or do something different when she is whining?
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Hi Bec!!
She really is great and doesn't cry much, even when tired and can be distracted but her cues are getting quite obvious! When we enter my bedroom and she's tired she'll cry, rub eyes and yawn a lot during wind down in my arms or on the change table.
This was our day today! Her cues were so obvious each time I put her down...
WU: 6.50
E: 7.00 (120ml over an hour)
A: **tired signs at 8.00am, yawns x2 at 8.30.
S: 8.35; asleep 8.45 - 10.45
E: 11.00
A:
S: 12.45, asleep 12.53 - 1.34.
Rs: ~2.05. No luck
E: 2.15
A:
S: 3.30; asleep 3.40-4.20
E: 5.30
A:
E: 6.15
S: 6.30; asleep 6.50
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Awesome, much less time stuck in a dark room resettling, much more sleep for her (though still 2 x UT CNs in there) and WOOHOO! to seeing cues, that's great. She may even be a LO who does well with a short 1st A, longer 2nd A and longer 3rd A. They do exist.
Note that the first A time was in reality 1:45, so its not a terrible thing to push that bit more than she looks like she can handle.
Generally if the whinging continues after you've moved to another activity, she's probably ready to go for a nap but if it abates for 5-10min then starts again, think about it being boredom rather than tiredness.
You've done really well, today was so much better than those first few. You're sounding more relaxed.
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Good evening Bec!
So I thought I'd be consistent with the shorter morning A and it backfired on me! Grrrr
I did the personality test for Audrey and she came out 'textbook' with a dash of 'touchy' and 'spirited'. The touchy and spirited being the sleeping part :) her awake personality is angelic if I'm honest. Such a massive change from DS who cried constantly...
Today looked like this;
DF: 10.30pm
NF: 4.00am (120ml)
WU: 7.00am
E: 7.15am (30ml!! Talk about effort, she just wasn't interested).
A:
S: 8.46; asleep 8.58 - 9.34am
Rs: attempted resettle ~10.00am. No luck.
A: went shopping.
E: 11.00am (120ml). At the shops. Was falling asleep on bottle.
A: more shopping and car home but didn't fall asleep
S: 12.12; asleep 12.16 - 2.16pm
E: 2.25 (110ml)
A:
S: 4.25, asleep 4.35 - 5.07. She didn't wake crying but looked around and sucked her hands to try and get back to sleep but I got her up at 5.15.
A:
E: 6.30 (120ml)
S: 6.45; asleep 7.00pm.
DF: 10.30 (110ml)
NF: 2.50 (120ml)
WU: 6.20. Whinging and crying
OOB/E: 6.30 (120ml)
What do you think? Should I do closer to 2hrs A this morning? She's so confusing.
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As her nights get better, she may cope with the longer first A better, worth giving it a go again at 2hr given the UT waking and no resettle.
Nice nap in the middle there :) Doesn't it make a difference! That was a pretty long A time for her age.
Have you considered stopping the DF and just letting her wake for a feed at night? I reckon she might just wake the once and it would be more in the middle and she may then be more interested in that morning feed though if she's fine til WU from 1st nap, I'd probably not bother if you're happier going to bed after DF.
She is a bit of a puzzle, isn't she? We are making some progress though :)
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I hope her nights get better soon, I'm feeling a little frazzled.
My concern with dropping the dreamfeed is that she'll return to what she was doing of waking between 12-2 and then again between 5 and 6. I don't mind starting the day at 6.30 but if she wakes at 6 it's hard to put her straight back down and then start the day at a decent time (I truly can't do 6am).
Napping is just ridiculous...I don't know what I'm doing or what she should be doing now. I put her down at 8.30 and she whinged and had a little cry until 8.40! Watching her on the monitor but I think this will be a short OT nap!
Are you sure we're making progress?! Lol.
..... Ok, so she pulled a 2hr nap this morning I had to wake her from! Eeeeek far out.
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Yes, you're making progress. Here are a couple of things that weren't happening so much a week ago:
asleep at 7pm
2hr naps
Also, you're spending a lot less time resettling. That is good for both of you.
Yay for the 2hr nap this morning, now keep that next A time up at 2-2:15 and see what happens. FX!
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You're right :) thank you.
Unfortunately we went out and it was a pram nap. She needs to have her swaddle up on so I did it up, covered the pram at 12.35 and she was asleep in 5 minutes. Can't ever get more than 40 minutes when out though so was awake at 1.20 :(
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That's ok, reduce next A time by 15min and stick to it, life happens, you both need to be able to roll with it :)
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Well that was interesting. Into bed back at home at 3.10, asleep 3.20 after some crying but woke at 4pm. No crying for 15 minutes just lying and looking around. Crying and trying to resettle now, how do I play the rest of the evening? What would you suggest for bedtime!? I'm so confused.
She was so tired at 6pm so I gave her a bath, top up feed and put her down and she fussed and cried for 15 minutes but fell asleep at 6.15pm.
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Well, reasonable BT would be 6:15/6:30 unless she resettled. Of course you don't want BT too early if you don't want WU before 6:30.
Today just confirms to me that she is a long A time girl and maybe 2hr 1st and 2:15 for the others might work. Worth a try.
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Thanks Bec! I completely agree. She's fallen asleep now...
Ok, I'll do 2hrs again tomorrow and push to 2hr15min. If she short naps or doesn't resettle do I do 15mins early? That's what I did today for that 3rd nap and she still short napped. lol. Far out she's annoying. Hahaha
She woke after 45 minutes at 7.00pm and can't resettle :( she was quiet and lay sucking fingers with eyes shut until 7.50 but when I went to pat her as she started to cry she just lay wide awake having a good little chat and a giggle!! I patted for ages and she wouldn't go to sleep so by 8.45 I fed her and she took 160ml. Put her back to bed but she doesn't seem to have much interest in sleeping....
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Yeah, some LO's don't need any reduction in A time after a short nap, mine didn't. 15min seems to hit the spot for most children so that's what I advise first then tweak from there. That may be necessary once her A times are up where she needs them but you're going to have to be on the ball with her, as these are way higher than average, so she'll be dropping naps earlier than you might otherwise expect.
So she was UT at BT as well? Hmmm... lets get going on those longer A times and see what happens. We need to probably stick with those til Wednesday or Thursday just to make sure we're giving her enough time to extend the naps herself (sometimes when increasing A time, you still get UT short naps for the first day or two until LO's body gets used to the new A time and they sleep longer). Its good that we seem (touch wood) to have the morning reasonably sorted, its much easier to tweak smaller periods of time.
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Hello Bec!
How are you today!?
After that feed at 9pm last night, Audrey slept
NF: 2.48
WU: 7.00am
Nap: 9.05, asleep 9.15-11.15am
E:
A:
S: 1.27; asleep 1.30 - 4.00
I can't quite work out how the rest of the day is meant to go if she takes a longer nap this afternoon! There isn't enough time between end of nap, 2hr15m A and then another 2.5hr A to bed will push BT up to 8pm or later. i'd really prefer this closer to 7pm but what are my options?!
ETA:
So she slept until 4pm. I figured I had a better chance of an earlier bedtime if I let her sleep. Would 6.30 be reasonable or closer to 7pm given the good naps?
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You could cap the catnap at 30min which will probably make her a bit cranky but will reduce the A time to bed. You may find you have to adjust your expectations wrt night length - a 12hr night is unlikely for her. Something like 7:30-6:30 might be more realistic.
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I see what you're saying... but if she did 2hrs from 1.30 that brings us up to 3.30. Another A time of 2hrs15 is then 5.45. Cap at 30mins, 6.15, then 2.5hrs A to bed is 8.45!!
Should I aim for 2.5hrs now from 4? So 6.30?
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Well that was a fail.... Bath and a feed at 6.15 and she was practically fast asleep on the bottle (so didn't take a full feed). Into bed at 6.25 and now she's so upset and having difficulty settling. fell asleep at 6.40 but woke at 7.10 and has been restless since...
I was wondering; what would happen if I gave her two sleeps letting her sleep as long as she likes? Considering I woke her today, would that bring me closer to bedtime without super long A time?
Last night was;
DF: 10.30
NF: 2.00am <what is the point of the dreamfeed if she wakes here?>
NW: 5.50am screaming. Tried to resettle her but she was crying
OOB: 6.10
E: 6.15am (not interested)
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Ok, so 2.5hr to bed seems a bit long since you're consistently getting those OT beginnings to your nights.
Did you wake her at 2hr for each of those naps? You could try letting her sleep and see how long she naps for and how your day looks then.
With that short CN, I was imagining something like this:
6:30 - WU
8:45 - nap
10:45 - WU
1pm - nap
3 - WU
5:15 - 30 min nap
7/7:30 - in bed asleep
DF: 10.30NF: 2.00am <what is the point of the dreamfeed if she wakes here?>
My guess would be that the DF was a different amount of time into her night sleep given she went to bed earlier and just happened at a different stage of sleep, possibly disturbing her pattern. Could also be that she didn't take the full feed at BT, so became hungry earlier in the night. She could be going through a growth spurt though uninterested in her morning feed doesn't support that possibility.
DF didn't work for us, it didn't push L's feed any later and I was losing sleep by staying up later enough to do the DF so I just PD for bed and went to bed when I usually would (8pm - yes, I know, that's a little unusual but I'm a morning person). Its certainly not something that works perfectly all of the time for everyone. It has been working for you though, I think, in which case, this could simply be an anomaly and she could well go back to sleeping a longer stretch post-DF tonight.
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Did you wake her at 2hr for each of those naps?
Yesterday I woke her in the morning but the evening sleep I let her sleep until she woke and she did 2.5hrs. But that left me with limited time for a catnap and a super early bed time.
Today has been;
WU: 5.50
OOB/E: 6.10
Nap1: 7.53 (asleep 7.55) - 9.40
Nap2: 11.52 (asleep 11.55) -
That routine looks good. Not sure how close we'll get to it today.
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If you were to get 2.5hr from both naps, your day would look more like this:
7 - WU
9:15 - nap
11:45 - WU
2 - nap
4:30 - WU
6:45/7 - asleep in bed
Either way would work - you could pick which one to go with depending upon WU time... or how it would suit your planned activities even.
Its actually good not to cap every nap in a given day - ideally you cap a maximum of 1 nap per day.
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Gosh I wish she had some level of consistency like that!!
Today was interesting
WU: 5.50
OOB/E: 6.10
Nap1: 7.53 (asleep 7.55) - 9.40
Nap2: 11.52 (asleep 11.55) - 1.27
Nap3: 3.31, 3.40-4.20
* she was SO cranky and upset before this nap despite changing activities several times. I thought she might have been hungry but she's not interested in milk...
Attempted resettle for 5 minutes but I just knew she wasn't going back to sleep
Paed suggested I introduce solids at 4 months to help her reflux so perhaps that might even out the sleeps?
Now I'm kinda stuck in the early to bed, early waking cycle. I'll try to put her down at 6 to be asleep by 6.30 at the latest.
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Paed suggested I introduce solids at 4 months to help her reflux so perhaps that might even out the sleeps?
Worth a try :-/ It can also really upset them...
Reflux doesn't seem to be affecting her at the moment though?
Today looks pretty good on paper. 2 x long naps + catnap, 12-12:15 day length. BT is later today than yesterday, no?
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It's not bothering her per se but she gets cranky and uncomfortable when she regurgitates so much.
Well I don't think bedtime worked tonight, she's been quiet and now crying since I put her down at 6pm (30 mins and counting). She fell asleep at 6.40 but then woke at 6.50 crying. Fell asleep shortly after. We're earlier than last night - I thought I was doing the right thing as she was so cranky but clearly not. I'm so confused!!
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The evening is tricky - witching hour is a pain. Wondering if she's a bit OS at BT? DS struggled with BT if it was within 2hr of seeing DH come home from work. He just shook with excitement and needed a lot of tight hugs and a lot of Daddy time to calm him down enough to sleep.
How was your night?
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you could be right! our bedtime is like this;
she has a warm bath, then a massage in her room, pj's on and swaddle up on. Close the blinds so room is dark, put her lullaby music on and then I feed her, burp her and cuddle for a few moments with a lullaby and shush/pat. My husband is home from around 4.30pm and my DS is a 3yo maniac so things can be quite hectic but I try to keep things calm during that last 1/2 hour or more.
Last night was very good considering. We forgot to do the dreamfeed after Australia Day celebrations and she slept until 3.30am. She didn't even sound like she was hungry crying but she drank about 130ml (which is good for her) and fell fast asleep until 7.00am. She did call out at around 6am but by the time I'd checked the monitor she was asleep again.
so;
NF: 3.30
WU: 7.00
Nap1: 9.03; 9.06
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I'd be pretty happy with that, a good long night with 1 NF and WU at 7 :) Maybe the DF is starting to interfere with her night sleep - would you try dropping it for a few nights? Can always go back to it if you find its necessary...
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Yes, I was very happy! Sure, I'll try for a few nights and keep you posted. With regards to waking her from sleep, should I be doing that based on the time I put her in bed or the time she falls asleep? Second nap was a touch earlier than 2hr15A but she was cranky despite changing activities. I feel like I'm REALLY pushing her - should it be that hard and trying to entertain/keep her awake when perhaps she's past it? I'm not sure...time will tell if she short naps. I'm heading to my mum's for the rest of the week so things could get a bit shaky.
Nap1: 9.03; 9.06-11.06 (I woke her)
Nap2: 1.10; 1.20-
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I guess we'll see - 2hr may well be plenty but you were getting quite a few UT naps on 2hr before.
Good luck with the change of scenery.
How long have you been doing 2:15? It should be starting to get easier by day 3-4, I'd have thought.
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I have been doing 2hrs15 for a few days now but to be honest I'vd put her down earlier than that most days because she seems so tired...
She hasn't short napped this one despite slightly earlier nap. 1.20-2.50 so far.
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Maybe 2hr is plenty - it would still be more than average for her age. On the bright side, she's not getting so OT that she's doing short naps, so you're not pushing too hard.
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Perhaps! I'll keep going.
This afternoon she woke at 3.20 and we were then on the road. Unfortunately she fell asleep at 5.45 just as we arrived and woke straight up. So busy with mum and DS that she just fell through the cracks. She fell asleep on her bottle but then when I went to put her down her eyes were wide open.
Into bed at 7.10, asleep 7.27!
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FX for a good night!
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We had 2 wakes last night;
* 12.30am - big feed of 170ml
* 4.00am - smaller feed of 120ml
* WU at 6.45am and lay quietly until 7am
* nap 1 - around 9, still napping. We're going out for lunch so I thought I'd let her sleep if she's still asleep at 2 hr mark.
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2 NW's is pretty good for 3 months, looks like things might start to even out a bit :) FX!
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That's good to know! As we approach 4 months in a week, is that still reasonable? DS was sleeping straight through from 12 weeks so finding it harder this time.
I can't quite understand why she is so tired on the bottle and struggling to stay awake but then stirs and wakes after 40 minutes. Am I not leaving enough time between bottle and bed? She looked around for a while before quietly drifting off when I laid her down tonight but woke 45 mins later and again looked around before drifting back off after about 5-10 minutes.
Today looked like;
NF - 12.30am - big feed of 170ml
NF - 4.00am - smaller feed of 120ml
WU - 6.45am and lay quietly until 7am
Nap 1 - around 9-10.50
Nap2 - 2.10-2.50 (pram)
Nap3 - 4.10-4.50 (cot)
BT - 6.42; 6.52 (woke 7.35 for 5/10mins) - 3.48am
NF: 3.48 - big feed of 170ml
WU: 7.00am (woke her gently)
Nap1: 9.00; asleep 9.12. A little upset, I think she might be a bit UT and/or OS. Will see what happens.
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A pretty good day, really. Yes, 2NFs is still normal at 4 months.
Is she less distressed waking shortly after BT now than she was? She seems to be taking a lot less time to resettle. Could be developmental :-/ Usually a waking shortly after BT is OT or OS when you've a decent A to bed as you do. I don't know that I'd worry too much about it if she's quiet and goes back to sleep on her own. Who knows, plenty of children who aren't watched on a monitor may well do the same and their parents think they're asleep.
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Good day and night!!! You're so right, I'll just leave her!
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I think you've both made awesome progress :) There will always be some variation, she's not a robot, but you've got a good routine that you should be able to tweak as needed now. Keep in mind she likes a slightly longer A time than average and average at 6 months is 2:45 to 3hr, so you're likely to see a move to 2 naps somewhere around 5.5 months and that will be A time of 3hr or so, so just watch that you don't stagnate at 2hr for ages, just re-evaluate every 2 weeks or so and see if you can increase a touch, say 15min rather than having to do big jumps again :)
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You're amazing, thank you so much for everything! Can I send you flowers or something?! xx
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Nope, there a little thankyou button under my name for these occasions. Glad to have been of assistance :)
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I've pressed it numerous times!! Thank you again.
She's started napping 40mins for all sleeps and last night lay awake silently for an hour at bedtime. Is it already time for an increase!? Her A was over 2hrs this morning and she did 40mins. I tried to resettle and she was asleep again but she kept stirring and waking herself up again so I just got her up...
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Last nap ended at 4pm and after a feed at 5.40 was in bed at 5.55. Has taken over an hour to fall asleep again!
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She could be, it is about 2 weeks since we started the 2-2:15 A time for her. I think you've caught it early this time - if she's able to go back to dozing after the 45min WU, just a small increase of 10-15min should do it.
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I've put her down yesterday and this morning after 2hrs A and she's protested both times (yesterday she napped 40mins). We'll see how long she sleeps today. In the morning she's waking and laying silently so I don't know how to work out the A time as I have no idea when she actually woke. I woke at 6.50 and she was awake, DS came into us at 7am and we got her up to start the day; into bed at 9am and she protested for 5 minutes before falling asleep.
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I think you can probably fairly safely call any time she spends lying in bed quietly "asleep" for the purposes of determining A time.
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Ok! I'll try that.
First A was good and we got a 2hr nap which I had to wake her from. Second A of 2hrs again and she short napped 40 minutes - can't seem to get the rest of the afternoon right at all!
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Sorry Bec, I know you thought you were rid of me but what are your thoughts on today? Am I not pushing those A's hard enough or could it be something else? BT was better and not another HOUR of trying to get to sleep.
Sunday 30-Nov
Nap1: 9.00; 9.05-11.05 (woken)
Nap2: 1.10, 1.15-1.54
Nap3: 3.45; 3.50-4.40. Lay quietly until 5.00 when I got her up
BT: 7.00; asleep 7.30
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I have trouble thinking that its developmental 40min wakings when she's taking a 2hr nap in the AM, it suggests to me that its an A time thing. That she is lying quietly for a while after she wakes suggests you're close, so I think push a little more and you should hit gold again.
On the bright side, she did get a good nap in there and she's had a good overall amount of day sleep - almost the average amount for her age, just with one longer nap and two shorter ones, yk? That just might be her normal body rhythm and you may find that's what works for her for a while.
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Ok, so I can try a little later A time. Our night was pretty average last night and I'm not sure how to treat her night wakings - should I be feeding at all of them?! Could she be waking out of habit now? Her wakes are all over the place and at completely random times all night.
BT: 7.00, asleep 7.30
NW: just before midnight. Tried to resettle for some time as she was grizzliness and not really crying
NF: 12.30am
NW: 4.30am but she went back to sleep
NW: 6.00am grizzliness again.
NF: went to get her up at 6.25 to start the day but she fell asleep on the bottle.
WU: 7.30, I woke her.
Everything seems all over the place. Is this the 4 month sleep regression and should the nights be so random?
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NW: just before midnight. Tried to resettle for some time as she was grizzliness and not really cryingNF: 12.30am
See, maybe not hungry enough to push you to feed her, but you'd not have had to get back up again at 12:30 for a feed if you'd just fed here. I think its reasonable to say if she's been >4-5hr since the last feed, she's likely genuinely hungry and you might as well feed.
Could she be waking out of habit now? Her wakes are all over the place and at completely random times all night.
You've answered your own question here - if the wakes are random (not the same time every night and not the same amount of time after BT, then they're almost certainly hunger, not habit.
I'd probably just have fed the first time she woke and again at 4/4:30. She's really not sleeping badly at all and frankly, you'd probably have had 3 less NWs if you'd just fed when she first woke. Better for both of you.
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Ok. You're right. I don't know why I worry about it and just feed her.
She's short napped this morning after 2hr A from the 7.30 wake up. She's so grizzly, showing tired signs and looks genuinely tired before naps though so I'm finding it hard.
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If she's still grizzly after changing location/activity, that's generally a signal that its nap time - I presume you're doing that already to try to keep her up :-/ I think the tricky thing here will be if she starts short napping for developmental reasons around 4 months as her sleep cycle become more pronounced. Keep in mind also that she's likely starting to get used to the A time now and possibly building the habit of getting ready for sleep then. Is that around the same time of day regardless of A time? I guess I'm wondering if she's a candidate for set naps...
She's probably also that bit more tired today after the extra wakings over night.
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Yes, I change activity to see how she goes and generally she's then still grizzly or awake. She's been up since 10.20 (11.30 now) and she a getting upset after a change of scenery so will attempt a nap. So hard to know with the 4 month stuff going on. Could set naps work?!
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I think they might. Lets see how her days are over the next week and see what might suit? Want to just keep them all together then post them on Sunday/Monday so we can look at them all together?
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Absolutely! Let me keep a log and I'll get back to you.
Would you mind helping me with this afternoon? Such a mess of a day today I'm so unsure of everything. What would you aim for with a catnap and bedtime/asleep by?
OOB: 7.30 after E at 6.20.
* 9.35; 9.40-10.20. Lay quietly. OOB 10.30
* 12.35; 12.40-1.08. Cried out then laying quietly.
* RS herself 1.20-2.00. Crying
* Went to get bottle and she was back asleep 2.15. Cried in her sleep intermittently (I put her on her side at on point) until 3pm when I got her up.
She's quite cranky and not herself which I think may be accumulated OT but also teething + 4mo nonsense....
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CN 5:30,
Bed 8ish
Otherwise BT 6 (expect OT)
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Hello Bec!! How are things with you? Feels like ages since we spoke but I've been diligent with getting our routine better. We've had hits and misses (a lot of misses). We hit 4 months yesterday and have quite a few things going on;
1) 4 month sleep regression
2) 4th WW leap
3) teething bottom tooth (keeps going up and down but hasn't cut)
4) rolling from back to tummy for 2 days (not in bed, just during A time so far)
Our greatest success is when we stick to 2hrs A. We had a good nap after 2hr15 the other day but was a total anomaly. Yesterday she went down in the morning at 2hrs completely happy, no crying and drifted off in 5 minutes, the same went for bedtime the night before. I'm trying to get all sleeps like that but for most of them she SCREAMS and then either has a good nap, 40min or 30 min nap.
For bedtime I'm also finding that following a catnap about 1hr30/40 is a good A and she'll drift off to sleep not having fallen asleep on the bottle (and stay asleep) but if she's had a big nap then 2hrs as usual would be better before BT. Our day and night lengths are all over the place too because BT isn't consistent - it's so hard for us to get that because she's so tired.
We're getting several types of days
1) complete write-offs
2) decent morning + rubbish 2nd and 3rd
3) rubbish morning and 2nd/3rd nap then crashes
4) 2 decent naps but then OT for bed as can't get CN right
I've been waking by 7.30 but the day is getting too late so I've woken at 7.00 this morning
The other big issue we're having is night feeds. They are totally all over the place (gone back to at least 2) and I'm feeding at all of them. But our day feeds are a complete mess now because she refuses to drink the morning bottle. I can try for hours and she doesn't want it and I end up forcing SOMETHING but she usually wakes early from first nap. Her bottles are still only at 120ml and she doesn't always drink that but she's big/heavy and putting on weight. She seems to enjoy solids but we're just playing around when we have time and I'm not wanting to substitute milk for food of course. What do you suggest I do here?
Should I be waking her from naps and if so, when? 2hrs from the time she goes into bed or the time she falls asleep? I find she is waking at 2hrs if she isn't super OT and doing a crash nap but that could be at the 2hr20m mark from putting her down. Does it matter.
Here is a week of EASY's if you don't mind taking a look. We're also staying at my parents house from Wed night to Friday so there was an early PD for morning nap by my mum as I did preschool drop off for DS which set us up for a shocking day and a crash nap and too early of a BT.
Monday 1-Feb
4.30 woke but settled NW
6.10-6.20 NF
7.30 - WU
* Nap1: 9.35; 9.40-10.20. Lay quietly. OOB 10.30
* Nap2: 12.35; 12.40-1.08. Cried out then laying quietly.
* RS herself 1.20-2.00. Crying
* Went to get bottle and she was back asleep 2.15. Cried in her sleep intermittently (I put her on her side at on point) until 3pm when I got her up
* Nap 3: 5.00pm, asleep 5.10 woke her at 5.30pm.
* BT 7.00; asleep 7.15/20
Tuesday 2-Feb
NF: 4.30
WU: 7.20
OOB: 7.30
Nap1: 9.30; 9.40-10.50, RS 11.00-11.45
Nap2: 1.55; 2.00-2.28. RS 2.38-3.38
Nap3: 5.35. Not asleep by 5.55 OOB.
Bath, bed and bottle
BT: 6.27; 6.35 (didn't really self settle here, almost asleep on the bottle/as i put her in bed).
NW: 9.35. Attempted resettle until 10.20...
E: 10.20
^^ took ages to fall asleep laying awake and grizzling. I fell asleep so not sure when she dropped off again...
Wednesday 3-Feb
NF: 5.00am
WU: 7.30 (woke her)
Nap1: 9.33, 9.40-10.14
Nap2: 1.30-1.50 (in the car from 1.00pm. Really thought she'd sleep longer but pretty sure she was very OT).
E: 3.00
Nap3: 3.30; 3.40 - 4.20
BT; 6.20; 7.00-12:48
* rocking, shushing, settling whilst running between her and DS. NIGHTMARE.
NF: 12.48
S: 1.05 - 5.50
Thursday 4-Feb
NF: 5.50
S: 6.05
^^ should I have just started the day?!
WU: 7.10
Nap1: 8.50; 9.10-9.44
* Grizzling, crying, cranky before morning.
Nap2: 11.20; 11.28-12.05
* cranky crying and upset, difficulty settling
* Not happy being awake; crying and screaming. Won't resettle.
Nap3: 1.35-2.30.
Rs. 2.50-5.20
BT: 6.55; 7.40-10.25
NF: 10.35
Friday 5-Feb
NF: 3.15am
WU: 6.00, resettled after 15/20 mins awake until 7.00
Nap1: 9.16, 9.25-11.30
Nap2: 1.45, 1.50-2.15
**postman and dog barking - not sure if this affected it or wake time. Eye rubbing at 1.5 A.
Nap3: 3.40-3.47 (car nap, just fell asleep then woke when I stopped at lights. Wouldn't go back to sleep and by then was hungry and OT but I couldn't stop on the freeway)
E: 4.50. Drank 3/4
Nap4: 5.00; hadn't fallen asleep by 5.30
A: bath and pj's
E: remainder of bottle
BT: 6.15; 6.20-10.30
NF: 10.30
Saturday 6-Feb
NF: 3.30
WU: 7.25. Laying quietly.
OOB: 7.30
E: absolutely impossible to get a morning feed in. Tried for up to 2 hrs and it really messes up our E for the remainder of the day.
Nap1: 9.45; 9.57-10.30
Tried to RS herself ~10.45. I patted until 10.55 no luck.
E: 11.30
E: 12.30 offered some solids which she inhaled (?!)
Nap2: 1.00; 1.10-1.45.
RS herself slept 2.00-3.34
Nap3: 5.00; 5.15-5.45
BT: 7.35, asleep by 8.05. Quietly drifted off no crying. Woke at 8.45 but she lay quietly for 5 minutes and drifted back to sleep. Wouldn't have known without the video monitor.
NF: 12.30
Sunday 7-Feb
NF: 5.00 (didn't drink a huge amount here and her cry didn't sound as hungry as the precious wake).
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30-8.30
Nap1: 9.30; 9.35-11.30
Brilliant settling. Didn't cry at all during wind down or when I placed in bed. Drifted off quietly and happy.
Nap2: 1.30; 1.40-2.57
Cried as soon as we entered her room and was very upset but visibly tired. In fact, she was cranky from 1.5 A...
Nap3: tried catnap from 5.15-6.00 with no luck.
BT: 6.45; protesting until 6.55. Patted until asleep at 7.00. Woke at 7.30.
Tried to resettle from 7.30-8.40!
E: 8.40
S: 9.00pm
Monday 8-Feb
NF: 2.45
NF: 5.30
WU: 7.07 (woken)
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Well, you have hit 4mo regression with a bang! I never noticed it with DS because his sleep was so ordinary at 4mo anyway :P
With that late NF, you could try reducing the size of that - she might then be more receptive to the first day bottle. It looks like you're dealing maybe with the 4mo GS which can be a doozy but maybe its just getting you a bit out of sync :(
Should I be waking her from naps and if so, when? 2hrs from the time she goes into bed or the time she falls asleep? I find she is waking at 2hrs if she isn't super OT and doing a crash nap but that could be at the 2hr20m mark from putting her down. Does it matter.
General rule is to cap at 2hr or thereabouts (of actual sleep). I don't think it matters all that much - you might find it does but it doesn't look like it from the days you've posted here.
Nap1: 9.30; 9.40-10.50, RS 11.00-11.45
This 1:10 nap is an UT nap of >1hr, I'd not have bothered with resettling.
What I'm noticing is that your first A time and nap length seems dependent on your overall night length - if its a shorter night (asleep around 8pm), she takes a good nap on 2hr first A time but when night is longer (BT 7 or before & WU 7 or later), she is taking UT naps on 2hr A time and better naps on 2:15.
I guess the other variable is stimulation level - very hard to keep uniform, of course :-/ I don't really know what to suggest there. Do you see any patterns/correlations there?
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Yep! Things are totally all over the place if I'm honest....she's not actually feeding any more than usual (still a major struggle).
I really can't get this catnap and bedtime right and it's driving me mental! Today was the below;
WU: 7.07 (woken)
Nap1: 9.00; 9.05-?. OOB 10.40
Nap2: 12.40; 12.45-2.45, fell back asleep and dozed until 3.00
^ quietly fell asleep
Nap3: 5.00; protested. Slept 5.15-5.45
BT: 7.15; protested briefly then lay awake until 7.45 but has just stirred and started crying!
I'm so annoyed, I can never get this right and with no consistency it's horrible.
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So she fell asleep at 8pm and had two wakings 12.30am and 5.30am. We had vaccinations this morning so I let her sleep and she went through to after 8am. I'll be winging it today...
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That's a pretty normal night for this age, it truly is. I know its not what you experienced with DS but it is normal.
I might see if I can get some input re: bottle feeding from someone as I'm nigh on clueless in that respect.
That day looks pretty good to me. 2 long naps and a catnap, 13hr day. I wonder if her body clock is just that bit later than most babies and she's more of an 8pm BT/7am WU kid.
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Yes I totally respect that's normal and I'm totally okay with that!
That crappy llittle nap she protests so much but with EBT often as early as 6 for DS it's not feasible to have her in the pram or the car. I tried the ergo but it was a total bust. Should she be so upset going down for this, regardless whether it follows a 2hr or 20min nap! We've been trying for after 2h or later A.
After this difficult catnap, what time should I aim for her to be put down at night? Should I shoot for a later BT - I guess that's what I'm struggling with in the PM. What A time to bed - have her in Bed that is, not just asleep time.
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That CN is a pest. Its unavoidable, really if you want to make it to BT but its tricky and that's the most variable bit of the day at this age (between children, not just with the same child on different days).
What's happening around that time of day? Is there any day she doesn't get so upset?
She's quite variable with how she goes at BT too, I'll have a look when I'm not on my phone and see if I can see any pattern.
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Bec, I can't thank you enough for continuing to help me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
You're right, the catnap is a necessary evil at this age. I got her to take it tonight but she cried for 10 minutes and slept 30 minutes.
Our easy today has been;
WU: 8.10
E: 8.30. actually ate well at this feed despite the 5.30 feed. Could this be because I let her wake herself rather than wake her at 7.00?
Nap 1: 10.40-11.00 in the car after immunizations
E: 12.00
S: 12.30, at a friends house so not sure when she fell asleep but I think she did about 1.5-2hrs. She started crying at 2.40
E: 4.00
S: 5.00; 5.10-5.40
E: 6.45, small split feed
A: bath, massage, swaddled
E: 7.10
S: 7.25; 7.40!
^ quietly fell asleep, no crying.
In the afternoon, hubby comes home around 4.30 so she could be OS from him arriving and the house going into crazy mode to get DS fed, bathed and into bed (he has a SEBT because he will never sleep past 6 and is usually awake well before that).
I can't really see any pattern if I'm honest! I did 1hr45m A to bed but I've done that before too with such varied results. Lol. She only takes that catnap occasionally.
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In the afternoon, hubby comes home around 4.30 so she could be OS from him arriving and the house going into crazy mode to get DS fed, bathed and into bed (he has a SEBT because he will never sleep past 6 and is usually awake well before that).
Yeah, we'd never get a nap that close to DH getting home (unless it was in his arms ;) )!
Seems like those afternoons might improve in the absence of the CN - DYT you could try the CN elsewhere in the day? That way you would be doing a longer nap earlier in the PM and DH arriving home wouldn't be a factor. DYT the better BT was a result of the immunisations?
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It might have been a good bedtime but it was a shocking night! She woke crying every 45-60 minutes. She would cry and then settle, cry and then settle on and off and then fall asleep for a sleep cycle or less and start again. I only fed her at 12.30 and 4.30am but she barely drank a thing at either feed. Finally got up at 7am.
Nap1: 9.00-11.00 (woke her)
Nap2: 1.00; didn't fall asleep until 1.50-2.10
Nap3: 3.50, 4.00/4.05-4.50 crying
BT: 6.55; still trying to settle her at 7.50!
I have no idea where I'd start with a catnap somewhere else in the day because she doesn't at all sleep well (ever) after a short nap! If I capped the first nap at 30/40 minutes the rest of the day would follow suit. I have tried her not seeing DH until after the catnap but it made no difference.
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Fair enough, its likely to put a spanner in the works by the sounds. At least you're getting a couple of decent naps in and 'only' dealing with the afternoon and evening being a pain.
The ordinary night could have been the vaccines - it's a stronger reaction the second time around, as one would expect, so the grumpiness is a bit earlier and more intense.
I'm running out of ideas wrt the afternoon :( I've asked someone to have a look re: bottle feeding and maybe for some fresh eyes on the situation. I know its much better than when you started the thread but its still tricky.
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Ok, so both kids are sick! Audrey is congested a with a cough and DS has an ear thing! Everything is going out the window now. Do I let her sleep as long as she wants for bed and naps? She fell asleep in my mum's arms this morning before she put her down in her bed...
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Yeah, everything goes out the window a bit when they're sick :(
Hope they're better soon!
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Ok. So sickness sniffle almost gone but we've been left with constant screaming, self settling has gone, awake for hours and hours at a time ending up completely OT and awake times are just all over the shot. Feel like I've taken a leap forward and a million steps back.
Last night she only woke once at 4am but took me 2hrs to get her down for the night. Today she fell asleep in the car just before 9 after preschool drop off so I set out on a nice long drive only for nap to end 20 minutes later. So 9.15. Put her down at 11 and she cried (which is now the norm but worse crying not whinging like before) then she lay quietly and fell asleep from 11.15-2.10.
Into the car and I was hoping she'd drop off on our long 2hr drive home but she cried from 3.45-5.30 all the way down the highway! Couldn't get a cat nap, wouldn't self settle so I rocked her to sleep, finally passing out at 6.45pm!
All our days are a mess and I know 4 month sleep regression, wonder week and a cold play a part but she's getting more and more tired bt the day and I don't know what to do re. A times again. I know I got some great naps at the 2hr mark but she's crying going down for every sleep and now she just acts miserable all the time :(
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She woke at 10.30 and 4.30 - neither are hungry cries but she drank most of both bottles. However she's been laying awake chatting to herself since at LEAST 6.30. I really want to push this later but our current routine and her A times and inability to take that 3rd nap ANYWHERE is driving me to the brink of insanity!
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Since I've not many ideas on helping with that CN, maybe a new thread on Naps? Its unlikely anybody else is going to read this thread all the way through now.
What have you last day/two looked like?
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Good plan, I'll do that.
Friday was an absolute mess with a short morning nap in the car, a long almost 3 hr catch up nap and then screamed the whole 2hr drive home. Since I have to make that drive once a week it would be nice if she could fall asleep without hassle or I'm bound to have an accident soon.
Today however after she wok and entertained herself early, the day went like this! What do you make of it! All in all it was perfect in my opinion but I can't get out of the house and drive around at 5/5.30/6 for a crappy nap that may or may not happen!
Interestingly since I offered a bit of solids at each meal today she slept properly. Probably won't happen tomorrow but I'll take I'll take it today.
NF: 10.30
NF: 4.30
WU: 6.30 or earlier laying quietly or chatting away
OOB: 7.00
E: 8.00. Breakfast. I completely skipped milk since I'm sick of fighting her and instead gave her some baby porridge and Apple (made with formula) that she smashed
A
S: 8.48; 8.55-10.55. OOB 11.00
E: 11.00 full bottle!
E: bit of solid for lunch
A:
S: 1.10; 1.20-3.20
E: 3.30 full bottle
A:
S: the most difficult sleep EVER! went out to the park and pushed her around in the pram (no luck), drove home and after a cry she fell asleep 10 mins at the absolute max from 5.45-5.55 roughly.
E: 6.15. A little rice cereal and some fruit
A: bath, massage, pj's
E: 6.50.
BT: 7.13; asleep 7.35. Quietly chatting and drifting off.
NW: 3.48. Woke happy? Then crying escalated so i fed her
WU. 6.35, chatting and happy but fell back to sleep at 6.55! Woke her at 7.20
E: 7.30, 50ml top up
A:
S: 9.30; quiet in my arms shush/pat but cried and fussed. Slept from 9.35 but was awake when I checked the monitor at 10.20. Laying awake, no crying but has the hiccups! Amazingly she managed to fall asleep again by herself from 10.40-11.20
E: 11.30, full bottle. Some solids.
A:
S: 1.20; 1.30-3.35 (had to wake her!)
E: 3.30, most of her bottle
A:
S: we'll see!! Lol
Do you think I have her A time WAY off. Has she extended already or do I need to pull A time back? Hmmm, coupled with the catnap issue I'm SO confused. Perhaps she thought the additional morning sleep falling back to sleep at 7am was her first nap? I wasn't sure what to do there.
Sorry, would love your thoughts!
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I think you've got a couple of signs of UT there - 45min + 40min nap (where she resettled herself!) and waking happy and chatty in the MOTN. I'd probably push that first A time a touch and see what happens. I don't think you're WAY off though, its pretty close. There was a nice long stretch in the night there too :)
Gee, I'm trying to think how you could get around the need for that catnap :-/ I don't know if this would work:
7 - wake
9:15 - nap
11:15 - wake
1:30 - nap
3:30 - wake
6 - BT
It might be too much to expect 13hr night though dropping to 2 naps at this age, it wouldn't be unreasonable, yk?
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Should I have let her sleep in this morning if she resettled just before 7 or got her up!?
I don't know about this catnap or dropping to 2 naps! I had to wake her from the second one today and I'm currently in the car and have been since 4.30 (got her out just before sleep time at 5.30, changed nappy and started driving again) only to still have her crying at 6.10pm! I've put a cover over the capsule and no luck, she won't even entertain the thought of going to sleep yet I'm stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. **sigh**. Is going to feed/rock to sleep tonight :(
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Why did you have to wake her?
I think if she's going to take reasonably long naps on her own (2hr+) with those 2:15 A times, you may find the CN drops easily enough.
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I thought I had to wake her if she was still sleeping at the 2hr mark!? Perhaps I should just let her sleep for all sleeps (if they're long) and wing the days they're 45 mins? The last few days have been great for those 2 naps but as you know, things can be hit and miss!
Should i wake her at 7am do you think if she's not already awake? This morning through me for six
Ended up getting a 10min nap from 6.20-6.30 and just put her down at 7.58.
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I'd cap at 2.5hr, rather than 2. She could just be a long A, long nap gal.
Perhaps I should just let her sleep for all sleeps (if they're long) and wing the days they're 45 mins
^ Not a bad idea, you may find something that works for her.
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aaaaand we're back to 30 minutes this morning.
last night she fell asleep at 8.10.
NF: 2.30
WU: 6.53, OOB at 7.00
Nap1: 9.15, asleep 9.25-10.02. Was tired and cranky before nap but woke chatting and trying to roll over. After 10 minutes she's now upset.
Just when I think I'm getting somewhere with the long naps, typical.
She's still in a Love to Dream swaddle as she loves sucking her hands but if I put her in a sleeping bag she screams and can't settle even though she has access to her hands.
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Took her out of her love to dream swaddle this afternoon and tonight and put a bonds zippy suit with the hand mittens on....
WU: 6.53
Nap1: 9.15;9.25-10.02
Nap2: 12.44; 12.45-3.30
BT: 5.50; 6.00-6.20. Laying awake. Whinged a bit but mostly tossed and turned and fell back to sleep at 7.00!
Too late BT? I could hardly go for any earlier! Morning nap was a bit of a disaster and she actually seemed OT before we'd even started wind down. Should I pull the morning A back to 2hrs and push the second one with a good nap or 2hrs again with a short nap? I really need that second nap to finish at 3.30 or later but it's a massive crossing of fingers for it to happen. .
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Maybe try PD a little earlier on the first nap, just with the aim of asleep by 2:15 rather than PD at 2:15. Its a subtle difference but might help :-/
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Do you mean 9.15 asleep by rather than 2.15?
This is what we did today...I'm so confused with no idea what to do!
NF: 11.30
NF: 5.30. Perhaps I should have resettled here rather than feed as she wasn't really hungry crying. Fell back to sleep at 6.00
WU: 7.30
E: wouldn't drink until close to 9
S: 9.40; 9.45-10.32. Lay awake until 11 when she started to whinge and get cranky.
Arms out of swaddle with bonds zippy suit.
E: had to force a bottle for hours from 11.30, completely disinterested
S: 12.50; 1.00/1.05-1.43
~ laying awake, kicking her legs until 2.20.
Mantra crying and trying to settle. Rolled onto side and played with lovey/comforter from 2.40 before getting really cranky so I got her up at 2.50.
E: 3.20. Had to feed her in the dark and hold her arms down so she'd drink properly!
A:
S: 4.37; rolling and crying, had to roll her back to back just before 5.00-5.20. Rolling around.
A
E: wouldn't drinking here either...
S: 6.45; crying and rolled from back to tummy constantly had to roll over. She eventually fell asleep on her tummy after I'd rolled her back countless times but not until 7.28!
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She's not usually that disinterested in the bottle is she? It could just be the NF at 5:30... could be teeth.
Why are you rolling her back over onto her back? Can she roll both ways on her own?
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No, I've always had to practically force her to drink though.
She can't roll both ways yet but we've been practicing!
Her sleeps are all 30 or 40 minutes and 20 minutes I'm lucky in the car but most of the time she just screams...
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Did we discuss reflux?
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Yes she has reflux and still spits up quite a lot but I don't feel it's causing the sleep issues. When she wakes she's all happy but quickly miserable but I have NO chance getting her back to sleep.
This morning she was awake from at least 6.30, and took a lot of shush and rocking the cot to get her to sleep around 8.50-9.30 she was crying.
Nap2: 12.10/15-12.43 in the pram
Nap3: ?? What do I do?
I think the issue with the car is that if she goes in UT she finds it difficult to fall asleep once sleep time rolls around so then as the time ticks by and she gets more OT she loses it and can't settle. The other day I put her in about 10 mins before sleep time and she drifted off with a little whinge in about 20 minutes but then only sleeps 20 minutes :(
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So we're at my parents and Audrey's decided to sleep through both nights! The first morning she went back down after 2hr A and slept for over 2 hours. Today however she's short napped despite being tired and falling asleep quickly... I'm also failing with the second and third nap of the day and can't get another long nap in - just two crappy short sleeps.
Wednesday 24/2
WU:
OOB: 6.50
E: 7.00
A:
S: 8.45; 8.50-11
^^ no crying.
E: 11.00
A:
S: 1.20-2.00 (car)
E: 3.00
A:
S: 3.50; 4.05-4.45
^^ no crying...
E:
A:
E:
S: 6.32; 7.18!!
^^ no crying, quiet for 20 minutes. Not sure if I stuffed this up using a sleep positioner to try and keep her on her back (and she got frustrated) or if she was UT or OT.
Thursday 25/2
WU: 6.15
OOB: 6.25
Nap1: 8.12; 8.17-10.30 (cot)
Nap2: 12.40-1.10 (car)
Nap3: 3.27-3.57 (cot), lay quietly, dozed and resettled until 4.54
BT: 6.45; 7.05/7.10
Friday 26/2
WU: 6.37
OOB: 6.45
Nap: 8.35; 8.40-9.22. ; cried briefly then resettled herself from 9.55-10.02. 10.05-10.45
She is sleeping through only on the nights we stay at my parent's place so who knows how the rest of the week will go once we're home tonight.
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Is there anything different at your parents' place? Is she taking more solids, does someone snore and provide white noise, is she playing outside more during the day? Its hard to pinpoint why she might sleep through there, but enjoy it!
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I can't pin point it! We have a fan on both there and at home but I think the room might be quite a bit cooler which could help. She's probably outside less than at home but she does want to eat more here (all of a sudden she's taking 180ml bottles and wanting solids although I'm not sure if I should be giving them to her...)
What should her A be like now? She's 5 months in a week and a half. Just can't seem to get it right. The sleeping through isn't making it any easier. She resettled this morning after a good 1/2 hour or more for another 40 minutes of sleep. At the moment I'm finding I can get her down without all the screaming in my arms of she's in bed or asleep at the 2hr mark or thereabouts.
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Typical A time goes from 2hr at 4 months to 2:45 - 3hr at 6 months, so an increase of 15min every 2 weeks is pretty reasonable if her cues are difficult to read.
Maybe she's having a growth spurt... extra food, more sleep, sounds like growing to me ;)
She's probably screaming because she's UT - try bumping that A time up and see how you go. You could be close to dropping that pesky CN!
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Saturday 27/2
WU: 7.00
E: 7.15 (180ml)
A:
E: solids
S: 8.50; 8.55 - before 10.30
E: 11.00 (180ml)
A:
E: solids
A:
S: 12.35; 12.40-2.00. 2.20-3.00 (resettled herself quietly)
E: 3.00 (180ml)
A:
S: 4.55; absolutely detested being put down. dozed for a while after protesting and slept 5.20-5.40.
E: solids
A:
E: 6.55 (180ml)
BT: 7.15; 7.30
NW: 3.47-5.00. Mantra cry for a little while then I patted her for some time and then she lay quietly and fell back asleep by 5, I think.
Sunday 28/2
WU: 6.45
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.00 (120ml)
A:
E: solids
S: 8.55; 9.00-9.42. 9.47-...
Just wondering if I should push just a little bit? I'm aiming for her to be ASLEEP by 2hrs at all sleeps. She is resettling well if she does wake between cycles so unsure whether to leave her to it whilst she's going down with far less fuss than she used to or push her A tad?
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I certainly would push it, but it looks like you've dialled back a bit on the A times since we worked on the routine last, so maybe she wasn't wanting such high A times as we determined a while back?
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I have dialed back and it drastically reduced the crying during wind down and helped her sleep longer. She's still asleep now at 11.00 since 9.00 and that short wake where she resettled.
When she wakes in the morning I've been counting half of the time she lays quietly or chatting as sleep so basing A time from that. If after a really good nap should I try and have her asleep by 2hrs or longer?
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I don't know TBH, I thought I had her pegged, but looks like that wasn't the case ;)
What's been working?
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I thought we were so on the right track but putting her down was a nightmare!! This was today...what did you think went wrong? I unfortunately was out at the shops so a combination of OT and OS.
WU: 6.45
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.00 (110ml)
A:
E: solids
S: 8.55; 9.00-11.15
E: 11.3
A:
E: 1.20
S: 1.35; 1.40-2.13. Lay quietly staring until 2.30. Cried so attempted shush pat and was making sleepy/moaning sounds but wouldn't go to sleep.
E: 3.00
A:
S: 4.00, protest/mantra sucking hands to self soothe but not asleep until 4.20-5.00.
E: 5.20 solids
A:
E: 6.40 (210ml)
BT: 7.00; 7.20
-1.30
NW: 1.30-2.15. Mantra cry, then patting to calm and stayed with her whilst she quietly resettled.
Monday 29/2
WU: 6.36, quietly chatting
OOB: 7.00
E: 7:00 (milk. really struggled with getting her to drink this morning)
A:
E: 8.20 - solids
A:
S: 9.45, 8.55-10.58
E: 11.10 (120ml)
A:
E: 12.00 - solids
A:
S: 12.58; crying. Angry and cranky from 12.30. Slept 1.03-1.43. 1.03-1.43. Cried on and off before drifting off again around 2.00ish-3.00
E: 3.10 (180ml)
A: cranky and didn't want to be put down from before 4.30!
S: attempted sleep from 4.40 but was screaming despite rubbing eyes and non-stop whinging. Wouldn't settle in cot so went for a 30 minute walk but she was wide eyed. Collapsed in my arms at 5.15.
E: 6.00 solids
A:
E: 7.15 (200ml)
A: 7.35; 7.55
^ protested and grumbled for a few minutes then lay quietly before drifting off.
I'm quite confused today and what I should do. Poor A seems so out of sorts.
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Do you know, I think part of her upset at lying down for sleep and the dofficulty with feeding could be reflux. I really do. Mainly i think that because it doesn't seem to matter how long her A time is, she is still struggling to sleep. I wonder if she sleeps better at your parents' place because she is held more of the day?
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She's been drinking a lot better lately and putting on heaps of weight. She still throws up a lot especially when on her tummy but she's so happy and smiley. She does tend to get held a bit at my parents but not all that much more that it's noticeable. She sleeps all night laying down in her cot and the same for naps.. I think she just hates going down for a sleep, like she's missing out on the world. That morning nap is at least predicatale around the 2hr A time and the rest will just be messy until she drops the 3rd nap I assume!
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What a horrible night and day. Well today wasn't too bad nap wise but the crying starts as I'm standing in the doorway to my room. She goes to sleep fairly quickly but I'm at the stage of dreading nap time ans putting her down. I'm trying not to get anxious so she doesn't pick up on it but I hate it...
Last night...
A: 7.35; 7.55pm
^ protested and grumbled for a few minutes then lay quietly before drifting off.
NW: 1.00-2.45. Tried to resettle her but should have just fed her. The fact that she CAN sleep through frustrates me and I am trying not to feed but that seems fruitless.
NF: 2.45 (180ml)
S: 3.15-7.20
Tuesday 1/3
WU: 7.20am
E: 7.30 (120ml)
A:
E: 8.45 - solids
S: 9.15; 9.20-11.48
E: 12.00 (90ml)
A:
E: 1.30 - solids
A:
S: 2.15; 2.20-3.40
E: 4.00 (90ml)
A:
E: 5.00 - solids
A:
E: 5.45 (100ml)
BT: 6.00; 6.45
All her sleeps she cries and is upset! Bedtime she was laughing and carrying on as I put her down but had been crying with tiredness moments earlier but then cried while I listened to her mantra crying and then went to help her with shush/pat.
**sigh** had a big cry tonight. Things just seem so out of my reach to make things happier and easier on both Audrey and I.
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I think she just hates going down for a sleep, like she's missing out on the world.
This, unfortunately takes time to get better. I did have L sleeping on the floor in the lounge for a while, I'd just swaddle as a sleep cue then unwrap once he was asleep and I'd lean over him, shade his eyes a bit and sing til he fell asleep. I thought he didn't want to miss out but I now suspect it may have been partly that but also there must have been some aspect of him struggling with transitions. How does she go with other transitions?
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She does really well with transitions. The only time she doesn't is getting into the car. If she's just a nap, She's fine (same as her bedroom) but even slightly tired and she'll cry and get upset which either stops when I leave the room or start the car but can quite often continue for hours in the car with no letting up or falling asleep once it's sleep time or past sleep time! Extremely frustrating and makes me very house bound :(
Think I've got those A times all wrong now...no idea where to start. What time should I take her to her room to be in bed by and what time should I aim to have her asleep?!
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Ok, so if we take the approach of starting again, then in the absence of any presumptions re: high/low A, I'd look at the change from 4 months to 6 months of 2hr A time to 2:45/3hr by 6 months. Given that increase happens reasonably linearly, I'd just pick an A time around 2:20 or so given her age and use that as a base from which to tweak. The idea is to pick the A time, keep it consistent for several days then tweak as necessary based on nap signs.
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Thank you Bec! I'm going to try it and get back to you.
There is something majorly different between my parents house and mine. She had a 2hr nap in the morning at home; 25 mins in the car; and 40 minutes in the afternoon then slept 7.30-7.30 overnight no wake ups. My dad put her to bed so he did rock the cot until she was asleep but she didn't wake at all...
Unfortunately this morning my mum put her down right on the 2hr mark, no crying just a grizzly chat to her comforter, and she slept 9.30ish-11.13 (approx 1.5hrs). Pretty sure I'll be moving home soon if she keeps this up!!
Thursday 3/3
WU: 7.25
E: 7.30 (130ml)
A:
E: 8.30 - solids
A:
E: 9.15 (50ml) - mum gave her a top up but not sure if I should continue with that.
S: 9.27; 9.35-11.13
E: 11.30 (130ml)
A:
E: 12.30 - solids
A: yawned at 1hr50 min then again with an eye run at 2hr A so went to put her down.
S: 1.16; 1.25-1.57
^^ little grizzle and a chat but then woke after 35mins rubbing her eyes frantically, yawning but chatting and started playing with the sheets and trying to eat her clothes!
I'm confused with the A time too. Is that the time I put her in the cot or the time I want her asleep?
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Are you spending more time with her rather than doing tasks around the house when at your parents' place?
A time is eyes open to eyes closed, so when you want her asleep.
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Yes, I guess so, only because my older DS is at preschool those days.
last nap was a bust. I haven't got her out of bed yet, how should I play the afternoon!?
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I ended up with the following for the nap and will shoot somewhere for 2hrs to be asleep by 2.20A at bedtime!
A:
E: 3.30 (100ml)
A:
S: 4.10; 4.27-5.05
^ very OT. Mantra cry and protest trying to settle.
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:( I don't really know... see how you go for a few days, with 2:20 A time and cutting back by half the sleep missed if she short naps. She's not the kind of baby for whom the typical times will necessary work but at least then we may have an idea. She's not pretty used to that 2hr A in the AM, it might not be the length of A time she needs but its what she's used to, so she may continue sleeping well at that time for a while.
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Thanks Bec! I'll see how she goes. It's so hard to get to that 2hr20 A because she'll sometimes take longer or shorter to fall asleep but I'm trying to get as close to it as possible. When she starts showing all her cues BEFOFE the time I would start wind down I feel mean keeping her up and don't want to miss the window.
I might stick with 2hrs or thereabouts in the morning as she's so much easier to read. It's the rest of the day that's a lot trickier.
I'm also going to do some switch arounds in my matchbox size house on the weekend to give her a bit more space in another room - see if that makes any difference.
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Wasn't a very good night and day today so not holding much hope for tonight.
NW: 1.10
NF: 1.30am
S: 1.40
Friday 4/3
WU: 7.00
E: 7.10 (90ml)
A:
S: 9.12; 9.20-9.57
^mantra crying and fussing once I'd left the room.
E: 11.00 (180ml - forced!)
A:
S: 11.45; 11.55-12.43
^ Fell asleep very quickly
E: 2.00.
SCREAMING on playmat
A:
S: 3.20-3.45 (car). Highway driving so not sure why she doesn't keep sleeping.
BT: 6.20; 6.40 asleep
^beside herself crying so had to shush/pat.
Woke after 40 minutes at 7.20 crying. Resettled by 7.50
NF: 10.30pm (180ml)
NF: 3.30pm (180ml)
WU: 7.20
E: 7.30 (120ml)
A:
E: 8.45 (solids)
A:
S: 9.25; 9.35-10.13
E: 11.30 (120ml)
A:
S: 12.15; 12.25-1.13
S: 12.15; 12.25-1.13
E: 2.15 (180ml!)
**early and big feed!**
S: 2.30; 2.40-4.24
^ attempted sleep 3 times prior. She woke and tried to go back to sleep, she even closed her eyes for 5 minutes but woke and cried.
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Still a lot of short naps in there and still such variation with feeds. I've offered everything that's currently in my toolbox :-/ I really don't know what to suggest :(
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:'( thanks for everything Bec, I figured as much. Guess we'll just fudge our way through
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Sorry Bec - quick question...
what would you consider this length of A time between first and second nap today and why again would she short nap?!
WU: 7.00am
E: 7.10 (180ml)
A:
E: 8.000 (solids)
A:
S: 9.05; 9.20-10.20 (awake earlier). chatting and rolling until 10.35 when she got upset. OOB at 10.40
E: 11.00 (180ml)
A
E: 12.15 (solids)
A:
S: 1.00; 1.05-1.45. Playing with her comforter for 5-10 minutes before getting agitated. Cried on and off for 40 minutes.
S: 2.20-3.00
E: 3.15 (150ml)
A:
S: 5.00. Protested for almost 30 minutes. Slept 5.28-5.58. Is this UT or OT?
E: 5.15 (solids)
A:
E: 6.35
BT: 7.50; 8.30pm asleep after rolling around and protesting
Annoyingly the second nap was the first nap in ages she hasn't cried when I went to her bedroom, or changed her nappy, or put her down! I don't get it :(
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Hi, sorry I didn't get back to you - we had a bereavement in the family 8 March, so I've been out of action for a bit.
I think I'd have called that 2.5hr A for that second A, hard to know with these bits of time spent in bed but not asleep, yk?
That 3rd nap would be OT I think, but could be habit if you'd been capping them short to preserve BT...
How is Miss Audrey going now?
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Oh Bec, I'm terribly sorry for your loss. Absolutely no need to apologize.
I pushed the A times considerably to 2hr45 up to 3hrs again after advice on another thread and all that I was left with was a short napping (1hr15min MAX but mostly 30ish mins), overtired mess of a baby. We're sitting at around 2hrs20min into bed to bring total A to around 2.5hrs. Except for bedtime. Hubby's been putting Audrey into bed at the 2hr mark and she'd been drifting off quietly and within 10 minutes. Last night we pushed to 2.5hrs and she struggled a bit, whinging/moaning and taking a little over 20 minutes. Looked and sounded much like how she settled this morning but only after 2hrs20 minutes where she's woken crying after 30 minutes.
She's waking once in the night which I know is normal but she's not taking a big feed (anywhere from 90-180ml, major differences each night). Should I try and cut this feed out do you think? Perhaps this would adjust her appetite during the day which is ZILCH, with or without solids.
Tuesday 22/3
WU: 6.50, fell back asleep until 7.40. Hubby accidentally woke her.
E: 180ml
E: solids, a few tsp of apple and BLW (toast crust and a piece of orange)
Nap 1: 10.00; 10.05-12.13
E: 100ml (took over an hour).
A:
S: 2.38; 2.45-3.19.
S: 4.24-5.07
^^sleepy sound cries in my arms.
BT: 7.15; 7.27
NF: 2.40 (180ml)
S: 3.00-7.10
Wednesday 23/3
WU: 7.10
Nap: 9.33; 9.38-11.08
Nap 2: 1.32; 1.37-3.48
BT: 6.27; 6.47 asleep after whinging and moaning.
NF: 2.25; 2.35.
S: 2.45-6.55
Thursday 24/3
WU: 6.55
Nap 1: 9.25, 9.30-10.00. Woke crying and is now lying there awake, chatting and crying.
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I guess you've probably tried it all... I wonder though if you'd tried feeding when she wakes instead of spacing feeds more, so she's a bit drowsy - DYT that might help her take more in the day? Maybe distraction is an issue? I just don't know wrt her feeding - do know that 1 waking is still normal at this age, so she may just need it, and having that feed at varying times increases the likelihood its necessary rather than habitual.
Wednesday was good if slightly short.
1:15 is UT and 30min OT - I'm starting to think OS just because its so consistent with her even though the A times are ones we know she can cope with, yk? Have you tried some tight hugs as part of your wind down, just to help her let out some of that extra energy that comes from having big brother around?
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I don't think 1hr15min is UT for us... When we pushed to 2hr45-3hr A she woke screaming tired and I was having to really really keep her happy during that time. Constant playing and holding.
We have cuddles as part of our wind down.
Nap 2: 1.20;1.25-1.55. Cried and struggled but resettled at 2.30-3.13.
Nap 3: trying for a nap at 5.30 but I don't think it's going to go well. I should just put down at 6.
ETA. She cried hysterically around 5.30 and crashed with a minute of shush/pat in my arms. Slept about 30 minutes having a cuddle.
A time back to being in bed at 2hrs and she didn't say a word! No moaning/whinging/rolling. Drifted off quietly after 5-10minutes.
Could I have this completely wrong and she's actually high sleep needs? I much prefer the happy, no-nonsense self settling than watching her struggle with a longer A time. Having a look at the average A times, I know she's late 5 months old but there's something going on with her and I can't pick it.
I also tried different bottle teat this afternoon and tonight and she actually drank a huge 210ml so will see if that has a positive or negative affect on her tonight. I have been feeding her when she wakes also, not holding her out. She hasn't wanted it then and will fuss with the bottle, push it away and just not drink. Will see how she goes in the night and tomorrow with this different bottle.
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Maybe she is HSN - is she taking long naps on the shorter A time? It could just be what she's used to but if its not leaving her having long wakings in the early hours of the morning and she's happy and getting off to sleep well, stick with it, I say!
She's definitely hard to pick!
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Sorry Bec! I was updating my post to add exactly what you wrote. HSN? She goes off to sleep far better on the lower A times but doesn't necessarily sleep as long but then there are days she does 1.5-2hrs at that morning sleep. No long chatty early morning wakings lately!
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BW is really about listening to LO's needs - if she's happy and its not an issue to have shorter naps and she's still sleeping well at night, I'd stick with what's working.
She might not necessarily be HSN, she may be bang on average and just want her sleep in smaller chunks, yk? Most babies who are sleeping shorter naps are OT by the end of the day and not sleeping well through the early hours of the night and if there's also too short an A time first thing in the morning, some LOs will also have long happy NWs in the early hours of the morning.
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Thanks Bec! Well we don't have long happy night wakings. At the 3hr mark before BT she was waking after 40 minutes screaming so we assumed this was too much and pulled back but since we've done that the 40 minute wakings have stopped.
Coincidentally last night's NW/NF was about 5 minutes different from the previous night at 2.18 and 2.25. This morning, after drinking 180ml in the night, she drank maybe 90ml of her morning bottle and that was it.
The day then followed on very poorly and Again, everything is just as unpredictable as always. Here I was thinking we had at least something right! She didn't appear very tired this morning before her nap but then when taken away from the stimulation she was showing tired signs. I thought maybe i could set some rhythm if I kept to the A time that was working but I give up!! Lol.
Thursday
BT: 8.00; 8.10-2.18
NF: 2.18; 2.30 fed.
S: 2.45-7.36
Friday
WU: 7.36
Nap 1: 10.10; 10.15-10.53.
Didn't get her out of bed until 11.40.
Nap 2: 1.50; 1.53-2.26. Then 3.11-3.45
BT: 6.00; 6.20 after a bit of a whinge. Woke after 40 minutes but rolled to her side and is quietly playing with her comforter.
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Have you tried reducing that NF a bit to see if she'll feed better in the AM? I think you did with no change but could be wrong...
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I'm going to start doing that. I did 180 last night, going to do 150 a few nights and keep going and see what happens.
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Fingers crossed for you!
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Thanks Bec!
Woke at 1.30 crying but must have fallen back asleep because I didn't hear from her for another hour at 2.30 (unless she was awake that whole time whilst I was asleep?). Woke exactly the same time as the last 2 nights (around 2.30). She drank the 150ml and fell straight back asleep, waking just after 7.30am.
I tried for a good hour and finally got her to finish her morning bottle but it takes much too long. Fussing, pushing it away, carrying on and just so distracted. Unfortunately when I put her down at 10.05 she was crying hysterically. I sat down with her in the chair and held her tight and she was falling asleep in my arms so quickly popped her in her cot. She cried for about 5 minutes before falling asleep, woke after 1hr15minutes crying but then started chatting. She's really windy today, that could be why.
Nap 1: 10.05; 10.11-11.26. Woke crying before chatting.
Nap 2: 1.40; 1.50-2.32.
Nap 3: 4.45; 4.55-5.26. cried for about 5 minutes going down.
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Poor poppet, gas pains are horrid :(
FX reducing that NF will help increase her appetite in the day! Its awful when something so seemingly simple as feeding is going awry, hugs xx
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Thanks Bec!!
She woke at 9.45am and cried out but fell back asleep. Then woke at 2.30 (AGAIN!) and did the same thing but I fell back asleep and woke to her at 3.20. I offered her 140ml of milk but she drank less than 100ml. Woke before 6 chatting and crying so offered a bottle at 7.00am and I got a little over 120ml into her.
Sigh, I'm about to go cold turkey on this night feed because it doesn't seem to be for hunger any more.
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Worth a shot. It may move later but she's not taking much there now.
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Nothing is working at all now... A total mess. What do you think I should do!? Yesterday was two good naps and a decent night that didn't involve a feed but first nap was crap.
Nap 1: 9.30-10.10 (cot)
Nap 2: 1.50-2.10 (my arms after a bottle)
Nap 3: 4.40-4.50 (car)
BT: 7.15; 7.30
NW: 2.30 call out
NW: 3.30. I tried to resettle for over an hour and got nowhere
NF: 4.40, 120ml milk. Drank and lay chatting until after 5.00
WU: 7.55
Nap: 11.00;11.10-1.20
Nap: 4.30; 4.35-6.09
BT: 8.25; 8.42 asleep
NW: restless crying/chatting off and on between 2.00-4.30
WU: 7.00
Still a struggle to get her to drink 180ml, took almost a whole hour.
Nap 1: 9.57; 10.03-10.50 (could have woken earlier). 11.30-1.00
Woke and just rolling around, playing on her tummy before crying. She resettled at 11.30-1.00
Nap 2: 2.50-3.10 in the car (?)
Nap 3: 5.15; 5.30
^^ protest crying.
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Yep, car naps can be a nightmare when they aren't at "nap time" :(
Yesterday looked pretty good, I would almost say you need to bite the bullet and do 2 nap days. Those long NWs in the early hours of the morning with chatting... maybe a sign to increase that first A time a bit more, see how she's taking shorter first nap now if that A time's not just over 3hr? That's where it needs to be I reckon. Small sample size - 3 days, but I think that's reasonable.
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Where do I start Bec?! Is that 3hr+ A time for all 3 awake times, even before bed? Do I do set naps? Or adjust A time if she does short nap? Do I still consider anything over 1hr 15min a decent nap?
She's woken this evening after 40 minutes and then again 2 hours after bedtime. This sounds totally OT to me. That and potentially teeth? But I did give her a dose of nurofen before bed.
BT: 8.00, asleep 8.20
Nap 3: 5.15; 5.30-6.10
^^ screaming.
BT: 8.00; asleep 8.20
NW: 9.00pm. Quietly resettled
NW: 10.30pm. Crying but resettled.
NW: 2.00am. Crying out but resettled
NW: 4.00am. Crying out but resettled.
NF: 4.24-4.38 (120ml)
^ asleep in my arms after feed.
S: 5.00
^ chatting and moaning trying to settle.
WU: 7.15
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I'm imagining something like this (shifted for WU time, of course):
7 - WU
10 - nap
11:30 (FX!) WU
2:30 - nap
4 (FX!) WU
7 - BT
Could well be teeth. I agree could also be OT.
I do wonder if set naps would at least give you the predictability you're looking for - you're then giving her adequate opportunity to sleep and its then up to her to take the sleep when she is given the opportunity. It should help to take the stress out of it for you.
We know she can do 3hr A time through the day, I think you can maybe do a bit less A before BT if she's had longer naps but I suspect that would possibly give you a short night.
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Ok, thanks Bec! Should I wake after 1.5hrs or let her sleep?
It's such a struggle to keep her awake for the 3 hours and she's only slept 40 minutes again this morning at that A time but she went down absolutely screaming and running her eyes, plus she was only happy in my arms. anytime I put her down she cried.
If she does resettle herself (she chatted for 30 minutes and fell back asleep at 11.25) so I get her up after 2hrs in her bed or let her sleep? Doesn't leave much room for another sleep if she chooses to keep sleeping... I'm so confused!! Lol
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I'd give her 2hr15 tops for nap, from when she falls asleep the first time, then move on. That way you're not reducing the night length too much and its giving her enough opportunity to sleep. Sticking to it consistently should help :-/
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We got a sleep through last night until 6.30am (granted it's at my mum's house so won't be replicated when we return home tonight). Any chance of her pushing that WU closer to 7.00? I'm not complaining though, we found it super difficult to keep her awake and happy past the 2hr20min mark this morning. Crying, wouldn't play, not interested in toys and went down to bed very upset :( is this normal.
WU: 7.15
Nap 1: 7.13; 10.15-10.55. RS. 11.30-12.10
^ screaming. resettled after 30 minutes.
E: 1.43-2.03 (180ml)
Nap 2: 3.15-3.20 (car).
Nap 3: 3.25; 3.55-4.36
E: 6.30
A: bath
E: 6.50 (240ml over split feed)
BT: 7.05; 7.15
WU: 6.30
Nap 1: 9.30; 9.40
^^ grizzly and cranky from 8.50 (2hr20min). Crying and wouldn't be put down.
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11:15 STTN is pretty good, I think I'd just take that ;) It may well extend a bit later once your two nap routine is bedded down a bit more, it might not. BT could go a bit later if Nap 2 went a little longer which it might given more time for routine to settle also.
Crying, wouldn't play, not interested in toys and went down to bed very upset is this normal.
I'd not have thought so. Maybe she would've liked a quick feed and back to bed having that WU treated as a NW? Maybe she's crook/teething? Different surroundings? Different people/smells? Overstimulated? I always found DS got OS really easy when visiting, even grandparents he visited regularly, so a toy would just send him round the bend because just the different house and extra people was enough to take in.
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I tried really hard today and this is what we could manage. Not ideal at all and I found her SO difficult to keep awake. She was just so tired and upset and wasn't happy at all. Such a struggle I felt reall bad for her... We got a good morning nap but I timed the car nap perfectly and I got a super short nap where she screamed the rest of the journey home.
As for treating the WU as a night feed, I wasn't sure if I should do that since that often means she sleeps until close to 9am or more and then BT gets very late.
WU: 6.30
Nap 1: 9.30; 9.40-11.40
^^ grizzly and cranky from 8.50 (2hr20min). Crying and wouldn't be put down.
Nap 2: 2.39-3.09 in the car. Awake with the hiccups for 30 minutes then screamed for 30 minutes until we got home. Tried to settle her in my arms and she slept for 10 minutes from 4.30-4.40.
BT: 6.50; 7.00 asleep.
NW: 4.00. Cried out briefly but resettled herself.
WU: ? Chatting from 6.38-7.00
Nap 1: 9.45; 9.53-10.29.
^^ crying, fussing, moaning. Again, hard to entertain and miserable.
Why is it so unpredictable?
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I'd almost time hopping in the car for the car nap to be a bit before she's due to sleep so she's got some time to calm down from the OS that is saying goodbye and transitioning to the car. Does she find music or audio books calming?
Poor little poppet, its horrid seeing them upset and I'm sure worse driving so far when she's screaming :( She did take a good solid AM nap though, so that's good :-/
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Sorry, yes, we did that. We were in the car driving to pick up Harry from preschool where I was practically yelling and signing as loud as I could to keep her awake. Then got back in the car at 2.30 and listened to some music and she drifted off. Makes no difference what I do, that's all she's ever slept for in the car but it's making life hell.
I've just edited the above post with our night and morning and again, it's all fallen apart. I just want to cry....
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It does make driving difficult. L screamed everywhere we went in the car til I turned him around, then I got a month or two respite before the screaming started again. Luckily we lived somewhere he rarely needed to drive.
Short nap again this morning :(
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She's pretty good in the car...except when she's overtired and when she wakes between cycles and can't resettle :(
This morning she chatted for 10 minutes then fell back to sleep for another 45 minutes (10.45-11.30).
Nap 2 even more horrific.
2.30; asleep 2.40-3.15. Went down crying and terribly OT, took a lot of effort to keep her awake and happy. She tried to hard to resettle but when I went to help her after 40 minutes and when the crying escalated she was just impossible to resettle.
How do I handle these days and what do I do with her?
OOB from 2nd nap at 4.15.
BT: 6.05, but protested for 25 minutes. Was just about to go in and shush/pat to sleep but she fell asleep.
Hmmm, am I doing something wrong? Should I put down before 3 hours to account for settling time or is into bed at 3hrs ok which is what I'm doing?
I thought she'd happily accept the change in A time? I feel before bed though that 2.5hrs is her MAX awake time. 2 hours worked well last night too. The rest of the day, just seems like such a struggle to keep her happy and awake and I'm not getting the long naps :(
If she wakes in the morning and chats happily until closer to 7,do I do 3hrs from WU or OOB? Or 1/2 the time like I did this morning?
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So daylight saving seriously screwed us!! Grrrrr
NF: 3.30 (old 4.30). A very small 120ml bottle and went straight back to sleep.
WU: have absolutely no idea but I think about 6/6.30.
Not exactly sure what time to do first nap now... She really needs a good sleep.
ETA:
Nap 1: 9.30; 9.40-10.22. Rolling around crying.
RS: 10.40-10.48. Cried and I couldn't resettle. Got her up at 11.30.
E: been offering one bottle for an hour.
Nap 2: 2.12; 2.20-3.00. Woke crying.
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Well, you know, daylight saving is definitely a great thing (says every NSW person ever, right?). I'm glad we don't have it ;)
She's really got a tiny sleep window or there's something else at play here. FWIW, WU at 6/6:30 would have been 7/7:30, so that's not bad, right? Just means you *can* get her sleeping later and that was a long night for her.
How was yesterday?
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Thanks for your continued help Bec! I have absolutely no idea what's wrong with her... I've started on protein in addition to solids and she's slept through the night again last night but our days are still a LOT crazy.
The A to bed is much shorter but it seems like she settles better and quicker so not sure if we should continue this?
Nap 2: 2.12; 2.20-3.00.
RS: 3.15-4.00
BT: 6.20; 6.35
Monday 4/4
WU: ?? 6.50 chatting
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 10.00; 10.05-12.12
^ went down really well. Very little crying but was still a big effort keeping her awake.
Nap 2: 3.02; 3.07-3.42
^ same issue in keeping her happy during A time but was seriously rubbing eyes when I was changing nappy then a lot of fussing and carrying on as opposed to the first nap... Woke rolling around playing with comforter but rubbing eyes and yawning.
BT: 6.13; was trying hard to settle but kept waking. Wasn't crying but not asleep until 6.40!
I got her up at 4.20 after trying to resettle and she drank a full 240ml bottle, perhaps she was hungry!? If she has milk and solids, should there be a top up before nap given the E time is increasing to up to 5hrs? Doesn't really fit with EAS though.
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Slight NW at 3.30, unsettled (I think wind) but was asleep again in 10-15mins only a minute of whingy crying.
WU: 5.30!!
E: 5.40 Offered 100ml milk drank it all. Won't go back to sleep.
E: 6.00. Another 150ml
A:
Nap 1: 8.38; 8.43-10.18
^^ protested.
E: 10.30
A:
E: 11.45. Solids
A: gave her some nurofen as I think teeth are hurting...
S: 1.17; 1.24-1.57
^ protest cry. Woke crying then played with comforter, whinging, chatting. Basically being a pain in the Arse. Tried to resettle and she just kept trying to roll back to look at me.
A: car drive but no sleep just cried the whole drive (40mins)
E: 4.15
S: 5.00-5.20 in the car.
E: 5.30. Solids
A:
e: 7.00. 200ml milk
S: 7.20; rolling around for 20 minutes then crying so hubby tucked her back in and she fell asleep at 7.45.
What a ridiculously long (14hr!!) and tiring day! Where the hell am I going wrong? The morning A might be okay but the middle one is still a mess and I can't get it right at all. At this rate I'm going to end up with a VERY overtired little girl...the black circles are already starting.
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Ok, so she slept through 11hr solid, that's nice but WU at 5:30 is a bit rough.
Geez, I thought reading yesterday's instalment that she needs that 3hr, no less or she'll have that protesting pre-nap and a 35-40min WU which we've seen a few times after a 2hr first nap but then with the shorter 1.5hr nap she pulls an OT 2nd nap off exactly 3hr to PD. Her sleep window must be miniscule :(
FX for a good night with a more reasonable WU tomorrow morning. I wonder if the 1.5hr nap was related to time in bed with you trying resettling at 5:30...
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This is horrible...I don't know what I'm doing :( this morning j didn't do anything, I just went back to bed and she just chatted and chatted but no sleep.
She's woken crying after 45minutes so clearly OT... fx for better night and later WU but I'm
Not sure, I can feel things starting to unravel
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Yep, woke at 5am and chatted for 20 minutes before crying. Hubby gave her a small bottle and she cried and chatted until 6 and then slept for 40 minutes until 6.50 (she was just laying awake silently so could have been earlier). Harry was up from 5.50 too so I'm a little frazzled (and sick with a dreadful tonsillitis bug).
Grrrr, what's going on here? Are the A times too much?! Why can't she just settle down for both sleeps and SLEEP! I'm getting really stressed about it now because it's so incredibly frustrating.
She was positively screaming from 9.30 so I had to put her down at 9.43. I think she 'can' do 3hrs A but she can't sustain it :(
Nap 1: 9.44; 9.46-10.32
Nap 2: 1.45; 2.10-2.36 (car, tried to give time to wind down like you suggested)
I tried and tried and tried from 4pm to get her to nap again but no such luck. I don't know whether to try for another nap or do BT?
I think I might just give up.
BT: 6.00; 6.05/6.10 asleep. Woke and stirred after 40 minutes but settled.
Slept through until 6.15am!! Yay. Just can't get the daytime A right.
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Oh goodness, her nights seem to be getting better at least. Those day naps definitely need the longer A time. I wonder why she's so upset through that A time though :-/ It must be awful for you and her :'(
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She's actually really miserable and showing a LOT of tired signs well before 3 hours. Won't let me put her down. By the 2hr mark this morning she was crying and wanted to be held or she'd fuss and cry. This was our morning and with a much lower A after the short nap she managed to resettle herself...until I made a bit of noise and I think it woke her.
WU: 6.15
E: 6.40 (240ml)
A:
E: 8.30. Solids
S: 9.08; 9.15-9.45 (car)
E: 11.00 (165ml). Rubbing and closing eyes the entire feed.
S: 11.38; 11.50-12.27. self settled 12.34-1.30 ...
E: 12.00. Solids.
A: (preschool pick up! Cried the whole way there and back. Fussy and tired from 3.00pm)
E: 4.00. Milk.
S: 4.15. Asleep 4.30-5.06. Protested and cried but again was falling asleep on her bottle at 2.5 A. When she was in bed she was crying with her eyes closed.
E: 5.20. Solids
A:
E: 7.20 (190ml)
S: 7.35; 7.43 asleep.
So that last A was JUST 2.5hrs, I could not have kept her up any more, she was shattered and was practically asleep on her bottle. What am I missing here do you think Bec? We keep going back to longer A times but could her 35/40 minute naps be OT rather than UT?
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5.30 wakeup chatting, and wining? What do I do? Feed her? Get her up? Wait until she starts crying then start the day as close to 6 as possible?! Please help.... She did a much better night when the day was closer to 12h but that's impossible when she's only taking short naps!
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I really don't think those short 40min naps are OT. She's resettling herself (which is unlikely with OT wakings - more likely to be screaming and wanting to be asleep but struggle to achieve it), she's taking solid naps >1.5hr with a touch more A time than is delivering the 40min naps.
I do think its worth reducing, probably to about 2.5hr after a short nap but really, especially when she's had a good night, 3hr is where you're going to get the long naps. Whether you can deal with the upset before that is really your call - is she 'just' wanting cuddles (ie. perfectly happy with you) or is she uncomfortable, hungry or what? I do still wonder about reflux - she is upset in that time after feeding and wants to be upright, I presume. I know you're not convinced on that front and if its not affecting sleep but is affecting her whilst awake, that would be a little unusual though it could be related to position. Is she frustrated towards the end of A time if she's trying to master a new skill that's not quite happening for her? Is she OS from playing with her brother/too may toys/having TV on? There are so many things but there's clearly something bothering her a lot of the time. I really wish I could wave a wand and fix it for you :(
I'd like to think if you can get her sleeping consistent naps and nights, she'd be a bit happier but I don't know that will be the case.
In this morning's case, I'd probably try a small bottle and see if she'll go back to sleep. That's a 10hr night so I would expect she'd need more than that and that's a difficult call wrt OT/UT in that it can be accumulated OT making it more tricky to sleep towards the end of the night and it can be too short a first A time. Both of these take a while to happen though, so its hard to tell when A times haven't been completely consistent.
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Thank you so much for such a detailed reply Bec, really makes me feel better.
I don't know what is wrong with her but she was a little better today. She's definitely teething so that's not helping. She doesn't like to be by herself and I'm finding I have to hold her, constantly changing activities every few seconds or she starts to get upset and cry. This morning she was good though and I just sat her in the highchair and she just kept polishing off finger foods (veggies and fruit). There is quite a bit of stimulation (brother, occasional tv, toys) but I find I need to do this to stop her from crying or being upset.
I was thinking reflux but she is happy to be on her back and tummy and doesn't always have to be upright. She just gets to that 2hr mark and starts fussing, won't you play alone, isn't happy to be put down... She is happier when she's had more sleep and a good nap - just seems impossible to achieve at the moment. This was our day today. She took about 10-15 mins after the early morning feed to go back to sleep - is that ok?!
NW: 5.38; 5.48 feed. 150ml
S: 6.02 (6.15-7.50)
WU: 7.50. OOB 8.00
E: 9.20 (200ml)
E: 10.15. Solids.
A:
S: 11.05; 11.11-12.45
E: 1.20. 200ml
W: 2.00. Solids.
A: 2.45-3.45 (car. Including. Preschool pickup)
S: 3.50/55-4.20 (car)
E: 5.00. Attempted a bottle but not interested.
E: 5.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.45. 200ml
S: 7.00; 7.10 asleep
She doesn't fuss at bedtime, will chat or moan but for nap time she positively screams the second we go into her room. I wonder if the bottles and food spaced closer to naps helped this morning? It's hard with that early morning bottle because the day gets off track food wise as she's not interested in milk until at LEAST 4 hourly
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I don't want to eat breakfast the minute I get up, she might just want to eat after she's been up for a while. I know we had a stage with L like that, he needed 20-30min to play before settling to feed. Once I made it his call, he would come and ask for a feed and he'd eat much more happily than when I tried to feed immediately after waking.
She took about 10-15 mins after the early morning feed to go back to sleep - is that ok?!
Yeah, that's suggestive of a genuine NW rather than that she was ready to wake for the day - she'd have just fussed/chatted for ages after you fed and put her back in bed if that were the case.
I think its pretty normal for a baby this age to not want to play alone and it can well be 'new' - have a read of what's happening developmentally at 6 months: http://www.thewonderweeks.com/mental-leap-5/
Have you tried taking her in her room for some quiet play time in the middle of A time to create some other positive associations? Is it a transition thing? DS was much happier to go to his room for a nap once I worked out to bring the toy he'd last been playing with so there was a link from one place to the next.
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I did solids first this morning which kept her much happier and she's transitioned through one sleep cycle for this first nap at 3hr A.
We are 10 days away from the end of the Wonder Week (thank goodness!!) and she's mastering new skills (sitting up, eating, scooting around on her tummy). Such a great tip to take the last toy she's been playing with - I do think that's a transition thing as well. It doesn't help that her room isn't really a room (more like a walk in wardrobe with large window and room for her cot and change table), we're trying to move house but in the interim, being so close to me and the lack of space isn't very nice for her I assume...
NW: 4.00; feed at 4.10.
S: 4.40-6.50
WU: 6.50. Chatting, OOB at 7.10
E: 7.30 solids.
A:
E: 9.30 milk 220ml
A:
S: 10.05; 10.11-11.30 but woke crying... (is that an OT or UT nap or ok?)
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.00. 220ml bottle!
A:
S: 2.32; 2.37-3.05; resettled herself but only for 5 minutes at 3.10-3.15, then 3.20-4.00
^^ loud mantra crying & whinging falling asleep.
E: 4.05. 110ml milk
A:
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.35. 230ml bottle!
BT: 6.50; 7.00 asleep
Again, bit of a messed up day with feeds after solids (mainly just finger/table foods or loaded spoons) but she did relatively well considering. Do you think I need to have her ASLEEP by the 3hr A or just putting her down into cot? I'm hoping the naps might extend a little...
NW: 11.30-11.40 crying out
NW: 2.30; shush/pat for 20 minutes and she was silent but started crying again when I left the room.
NF: 3.05 (170ml)
S: 3.15; 3.20-7.00. Unsettled a little between 6-7 but not crying.
Yet today was again a short nap! Why can't we just have two days in a row of something working!!!
WU: 7.00
E: 7.30 (190ml)
A:
E: 8.30. Solids.
A:
S: 9.55; 10.03 - before 10.41!
^ held in arms from 2hr A as she was crying, yawning and rubbing eyes. Great difficulty settling, whinging and crying but visibly tired.
Great difficulty settling, whinging and crying but visibly tired. Crying when she woke and rolling around fussing.
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S: 10.05; 10.11-11.30 but woke crying... (is that an OT or UT nap or ok?)
Ok, so, since we know she was doing 1.5-2hr off 3hr A time, this is what I call a 'shrinking' nap - not bad, not REALLY UT but just a touch and its a hint to increase A, so I think rather than aiming for her to be asleep by 3hr, you aim for in cot at 3hr and that extra few minutes she spends going to sleep will get you the A increase and hopefully the extra sleep ;) This is the sign that if you look for it, you can increase A time by 5-10min every couple of weeks and not have to deal with big jumps. It tweaking rather than the complete overhaul.
Milk after solids doesn't seem to be reducing her milk intake though (why its not recommended), if anything, she's drinking more, right? Does this line her solids eating up better with when the family is eating? Just wondering if she's wanting to get involved with you/big brother eating rather than drinking, yk?
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Thanks for replying Bec! You could be right with the A time increase - did you see my updated comment about our night and morning? A very short nap but I tried to follow her and the clock and it backfired!!
Yes, she's drinking heaps more after solids which I know is not recommended which is why I'm hesitant to do it. I'm not pumping her with purees, just finger foods but the bigger gap I think between feeds is what gets her to drink more! I think sitting up with us as a family is also what she enjoys.
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WRT food, I'd keep doing what's working. If she's taking more milk and is happier then its totally fine.
Just had a look at the update - I think that's still making sense with what I wrote.
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We're just playing milk and food by ear based on her cues. I'd hoped things would even out as time
goes on but her milk intake has improved and she's enjoying food and aiming weight well so iNll just keep winging it.
Unfortunately this is how the rest of the day went;
Out of bed at 11.20.
E: 11.30. 200ml bottle
A:
E: 1.00. Solids.
A:
S: 2.10-2.40 (pram, had to APOP by patting her bottom)
E: 4.20. 190ml bottle.
S: 5.05; 5.13 still asleep at 6.00pm but I woke her...
^^ very tired OT protesting.
what time would you do BT?!
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Sorry, probably too late now. Around 8, I'd reckon :-/ Its hard when you get too short a nap and either have to do EBT or another nap.
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that's ok, thanks Bec! We did 8.15, and she was asleep by 8.20
WU: 6.40
E: 7.20 (180ml)
A:
E: 8.30. solids.
A:
E: 9.30 (60ml)
S: 9.45-11.47
She's so super tired this morning, she was acting really hungry so I offered her a milk top up of 60ml of which she guzzled and then collapsed asleep in my arms!! I gently roused her and took her to her room to quickly change nappy and put in sleeping bag and she didn't cry at all and went straight to sleep and is still asleep at 11.25. Likely from the short night but i don't know whether she's also on the hungry side when she goes down for a nap but should I be offering additional feeds and so close to a nap?
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I'd consider it a topup given the size of the feeds and fine so long as she's not falling asleep on it - have you tried feeding at the 2hr mark when she is typically getting cranky? I wonder if that's why the other day went better feed-wise? I'd be inclined to keep the solids before milk with her - its not stopping her taking the milk, she's taking more, yk.
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Well usually she takes more, today she's wanted nothing of anything - food or milk. She would have drunk more of that top up but it was all I had remaining from a bottle in the fridge. I offered her solids after the good long nap and she wasn't too bad. Offered milk ages later and she only drank 100ml. What confuses me is that when I offer that bottle she closes her eyes and rubs them like she's exhausted and wants to go to bed, almost falling asleep. She's teething today but she's tired, I thought she'd have some good sleep but things are just as messy as always :(
E: 12.00 solids.
A:
E: 2.00. 120ml
A:
S: 2.45; 2.55-3.25. Then 3.30-3.38. Crying and can't settle.
I suppose I just aim for BT at 6?
ETA.
E: 5.40. Only drank 100ml before falling asleep on me when I burped her!
S: 6.00; fussed and cried for a while trying to settle. I think she was asleep by 6.30 but the poor little possum was very tired.
I've been medicating for teeth because her bottom gums are quite swollen and she's drooling and Extra cranky.
I thought the feeding situ was getting better but perhaps not...I have NO idea what I'm doing. Lol.
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Wanting nothing of anything is a nice phrase - also pretty normal when teething.
I wonder if you need an adjustment of thinking re: second child - you know how the majority of people say the 2nd is easier because you kno wwhat you're doing? Its the same, you're still meeting a new person and getting to know how they tick. Its easier in the sense of knowing how to change a nappy and how to make a bottle but doing that with a different baby is a different experience. Its ok to "not know what you're doing".
Now you've said that re: DD falling asleep on the bottle, I'd be pretty careful about feeding close to naps - sounds like she's ready for that to be a prop!
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Wanting nothing of anything - Excuse my terrible grammar!! Haha.
Thank you for your kind words :) I just feel with Audrey that no matter what I do, it doesn't work. My first was absolutely nuts, cried constantly but by doing the same A for a few days he adjusted and slept decent chunks consistently each day until the next A increase. With Audrey it just seems such a mess and each day is like a lucky dip where I dread putting her down for a nap and bedtime.
Last night she had a long unhappy night waking at 2am - at first it was just super loud mantra crying then I tried to shush pat and she was quiet whilst I did that. BUT, once I left the room she screamed blue murder - at which point my husband fed her. Could the fact that she usually falls asleep on any night feed be that it's a prop? You're right about the day time bottles, I've gone back to feed on wake at least 4hrs between feed with solids an hour later.
NW: 2.00-3.30
NF: 3.30
S: 3.43; 3.45-7.20
WU: 7.20
E: 7.45
E: 8.35. Solids
A: went out.
S: 10.26; 10.30ish-11.09; resettled at 11.30 or so - 12.06
E: 12.30
E: 2.15. Solids
A:
S: 3.15; 3.22-3.52.
I tried to resettle her for over 20 minutes but she wouldn't settle, crying continuously.
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.20. 200ml bottle
S: 6.38; 7.00. Fussed and cried.
NW: 11.45-12.15
NF: 12.15 (150ml)
S: 12.28; 12.30
NW: 5.50-6.30 calling out intermittently then crying
NF: 6.30. Only drank 100ml; that's it.
S: 6.48 back to bed but not sleeping
Her milk intake today was minimal apart from the night bottle. She's ridiculously tired and upset - should I just give up? We've tried everything but nothing is working...
DS wakes at 5/5.30 every. Single. Day. At least his sleep was crap in the day but he slept through from 12 weeks so we both got some rest. Audrey can't do either! I'm SO sleep deprived.
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Her night length seems to affect her response to that first A time. How was she when you were out? Still upset through that last hour of A time?
She's really touchy! I can see why you're frustrated, I'm sure I would be too.
What does giving up look like?
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Sigh, thanks so much Bec! I know I sound like a right lunatic but it's just so upsetting discouraging and frustrating.
Yea, she wanted to be held and was doing her sleepy sound moaning the drive home in the car.
I went to the MCHN today and she told me to do solids before milk definitely if she's eating and drinking a little more milk. As for the sleep I'm just going to have to go with whatever she throws at me. It's not ideal to say the least but things are just so messy and I'm going crazy trying to fix something and she's not responding. Today was just as random - absolutely no rhyme or reason but I let her sleep as long as she wanted because I felt she needed the catch up. I'm sure it will bite me back but she was so happy when she woke!
I've also spent the whole afternoon and evening moving the entire house around to give both kids a bedroom. Hubby and I have taken our bed to the dining room until we can find a new house to live.
NW: 11.45-12.15
NF: 12.15 (150ml)
S: 12.28; 12.30
NW: 5.50-6.30 calling out intermittently then crying
NF: 6.30. Only drank 100ml; that's it.
S: 6.48 back to bed but not sleeping
OOB: 7.10
S: 9.50-10.10 (pram, unfortunately was woken up by loud noises)
E: 11.30. Solids
E: 12.20. 150ml
Nap 2: 12.58; 1.00- 3.53
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.40. 220ml bottle.
S: 7.04; 7.28 asleep by.
NF: NF: 4.47
S: 4.59; 5.00
WU: 7.00
E: 7.30 solids.
E: 8.40. 150ml bottle
A:
S: 9.40; 9.45/50-10.55
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OH my goodness! You don't sound crazy, you sound like a mum who's not sugar-coating it :) It doesn't look like a great day on paper but if you had a more relaxed day and she got enough sleep, that's a good day in my book. FWIW, after that short nap in the AM, I'd have let her sleep as long as she wanted for that PM nap too. How was she through that A time before that long nap?
That's a lot of furniture moving! FX she is happy with her new room :)
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Thanks Bec really appreciate it. That second A yesterday wasn't too bad but I was frantically setting up her cot again in her new room so my 3yo fed her her bottle because she was crying considerably and was very irritable and most definitely exhausted.
I updated my post with our night and morning - not sure on your thoughts?! Her poor bottom 4 teeth are swollen and red so teething is upsetting her too...
I'm just going to go by her tired cues today regardless of nap lengths. I know I'll get some wrong but just trying to be kind on my self today (ds and I sick AGAIN - gosh I hate preschool). Lol
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Looks like a good night (I know you'd prefer no NFs). Totally worth being kind to yourself while you're ill (and ALWAYS)! Is preschool DS' first exposure to that amount of germs? Its a rotten first year, really, then its not so bad. I was lucky to BF DS through his first 1.5 years or so of daycare so we escaped relatively unscathed.
Here's hoping those teeth cut quickly and you get a break before the next ones xx
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Yeah no it was a good night, I don't mind the NF's really - just annoys me when I know she CAN sleep through but we'll just power through and hopefully by 12 months or a bit later she'll be doing it herself! Haha.
Yes, first experience with the sheer amount of germs! Even managed to pick up chickenpox despite being vaccinated (furious to say the least!). Anyway, we'll get there.
This morning nap I assume UT? She was showing tired sign after tired sign in quick succession and starting to get fussy so I just took a stab. Plus side she went down relatively happy and just a minimal protest. Those feeds after solids she's very sleepy on the bottle but she perks back up once I burp her and change activity although usually about 30/40 minutes later the tired signs start. My concern (if her A times are indeed too short) why she wants to fall asleep on the bottle - if she wasn't tired yet she wouldn't do this, no?
Worst mother ever though...ds was having a meltdown tantrum so I popped A in the pram only to soon figure out by the blood curdling screams that I didn't strap her in. As she reached for a fallen toy she toppled head first out onto the ground, hitting her head on DS's kitchen stools in the process. Poor thing looks like I've punched her face up. Feeling so terrible!
Second nap of 1.45; 1.50 asleep - 2.33 but woke yawning and crying immediately.
S: 1.45; 1.50-2.33. 2.44-3.20, woke crying then slept until 3.30. What would this be?!
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.05. 200ml bottle
BT: 6.26; asleep by 6.36.
NW: 9.30; tangled in sleeping bag on her tummy/crying. Fixed her up and she was asleep quickly
NF: 2.33-2.43
S: 2.45
WU: 6.30-7.00? Chatting and playing.
E: 7.20. solids.
A:
E: 8.45. 170ml bottle
A: trip to the park
S: 9.58; 10.00-10.08 (what kind of nap is this?!?)cLay playing for 20 minutes before I got her out of bed.
A: went out for lunch
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.20. 150ml bottle at home
S: 2.03; 2.12 asleep. Cough and settle 2.19-2.45!!
This is absolutely ridiculous!!!
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My concern (if her A times are indeed too short) why she wants to fall asleep on the bottle - if she wasn't tired yet she wouldn't do this, no?
She will even if not tired, its relaxing, yk? Drinking warm milk, cuddling up to mummy, wanting to sleep after a big meal... surely you can relate to a little bit of that? Ever fallen asleep lying in the warm sun or curled up under a blanket during the day?
Worst mother ever though...ds was having a meltdown tantrum so I popped A in the pram only to soon figure out by the blood curdling screams that I didn't strap her in. As she reached for a fallen toy she toppled head first out onto the ground, hitting her head on DS's kitchen stools in the process. Poor thing looks like I've punched her face up. Feeling so terrible!
Aw :( We all have days like that. Hugs, hope her face is looking and feeling better soon!
Sorry, I don't have any explanation for the 8 minute nap, that's a new one!
woke crying then slept until 3.30. What would this be?!
Dream?
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yes, I know it must be super nice and relaxing for her - I love cuddling her to! but, should I push her through the A time afterwards? She just seems so sleepy!
Sorry! it wasn't at 8 minute nap today - was 1hr 8 minutes so from 10-11.08 and this afternoon was 30-35 minutes TOPS. I didn't get her out of bed until 3.30 when she started crying. Before that she was moaning and rolling around and just being a nugget! :P Hubby's feeding her now and doing BT so hopefully asleep by 6.30 or slightly later.
All her naps are just so short... I really wish we could crack a good few weeks or so of proper napping. Should I push the A time, pull it back, leave it and just roll with each day? So hard to know what to do and especially after a short nap I'm left with this sense of 'what now?'.
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1:08 is UT - slightly. She made it through the transition but not tired enough for the full 2 sleep cycles, so generally a little increase from there would be enough to increase but you've a little enigma there... you can try all the theoretical tweaks and cross your fingers or just wing it ;)
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I'm SO tired, sorry to keep pestering you!
Doesn't seem to make any difference what I do, does it?! Oh what a mess, nothing comes easy for us. Not feeding, not sleeping - the two primary functions of a baby! **sigh**
Tonight she woke at 10pm and I tried to pat her which she was happy for me to do but I couldn't get her to stay asleep. In the end I offered her some milk and she was asleep the whole time and took less than 1/2 a normal bottle so I know she wasn't hungry - I'm assuming OT?
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Doesn't seem to make any difference what I do, does it?! Oh what a mess, nothing comes easy for us. Not feeding, not sleeping - the two primary functions of a baby! **sigh**
Nope, unfortunately she's upset somehow either way you go :( I can feel your frustration reading this.
Could be OT, teeth? Getting used to her new room?
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Hi Bec!! Bit of an update here. Sleep is just a complete mess (as usual). Lol. A times have dropped, she's falling asleep on her post solids bottle after only a 2hr A! We have a new tooth and I think the other is on its way too. She is just SO grumpy and it's tired cues for each and every A time. Just at a total loss of what to do! I feel so cruel keeping her awake to try and push her through to a longer A in hope of a better nap because she's really upset and I feel like I'm trying really really hard. She's also not interested in anything. None of her toys, cries in car/pram and is just a grizzly upset possum.
WU: 7.00
Nap: 9.57; practically asleep in my arms. Had to wake her (typical!!) at 11.10
Nap: 3.20-3.25. Toddler tantrum in the car woke her.
Nap: 4.00-4.33 (car)
BT: 6.53. Asleep 7ish. Passed out on her tummy.
NW: 7.46pm woke crying. Resettled.
WU: 6.24
E: 7.00. Solids
E: 8.15. Milk bottle. Fell asleep, woke when burped.
S: 9.10; 9.20-9.50
^^ again, yawning and rubbing eyes continuously despite changing activities.
E: 11.30. Milk bottle
A:
S: 12.15-12.45 (pram)
E: 1.30. Solids
A:
S: 3.10 (crying hard, went and cuddled and shush/pat on my shoulder and put down again). Slight mantra cry but asleep 3.20-4.25.
^^ so hard to work out because she was continually rubbing her eyes and yawning.
E: 4.30. Milk bottle
A:
E: 5.30. Solids
A:
BT: 7.00; asleep by 7.20
NW: 9.20. Crying.
^^ white noise fan turned itself off?!?
NW: 3.00-4.10. Crying and couldn't get her to resettle.
WU: 6.44
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.20. Solids
A:
E: 8.20. 120ml bottle. Fell asleep!!
A:
S: 9.30; 9.40-11.40.
^Again, almost asleep in my arms but cried when I put her down but she slept 2 hours!
E: 12.30 solids
E: 1.45. Bottle
S: 3.00-4.00ish in the pram at friends house. I'm not entirely sure of this but she didn't call out until around 4.20.
E: solids 5.20 + milk top up immediately afterwards
A:
E: 6.50. milk bottle
BT: 7.10; asleep by 7.25.
At bedtime and through the night she's been tummy sleeping but not in the day! Not sure why but I assume she's ok.
Just really struggling with being consistent with A times especially given her tendency to REALLY want to fall asleep, rub eyes, yawn from the time I offer that bottle at 2hr A.
This morning we got a 1hr 15min nap which I feel is OT because she was so cranky/tired leading up to it. what do you think?
WU: 6.30
OOB: 6.55
E: 7.10. solids
A:
E: 8.27. Bottle
A:
S: 9.15; 9.18-10.35
E: 11.40. Solids
A:
E: 12.30. Bottle
A:
S: 1.38; 1.43-1.58. 2.00-2.39, 2.44-2.47, trying so hard to resettle but crying.
OOB at 3.15
E: little biscuit snack
A:
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 5.40. Bottle 200ml
BT: 6.05; 6.20 asleep by
WU: 6.30
E: 6.45. Solids
A:
E: 7.45. Bottle
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Its possible she's chronically OT from the short naps for so long and she needs that big push to get consistent good naps and recover but I think it might be worth getting a doc to look her over, just to check there's nothing health-wise happening. This kind of grumpiness is normal sometimes but it seems to be all the time for her and whilst I don't have any suggestions as to what could be going on, I do think there could be something. Her nights aren't what I'd expect if she were chronically OT, though. I was thinking reflux but its at the same time in the day rather than the same time after feeding since you've shifted feed time (though is it still around the same time after the end of a feed since she was taking so long to finish a bottle which can also be a sign of reflux. It could be something else or it could be nothing. I wonder about fluid in her ears, for instance.
1hr15 naps are usually a sign that you're pretty close to the right A time - LO made it through the transition to another sleep cycle, so wasn't OT and wasn't too UT but not quite tired enough to sleep the full 1.5hr, yk?
She slept a full 2hr nap after 3hr A only when she'd had that long NW. If the only thing you were after was that she'd sleep, then I'd say increase those A times but I'm just not convinced as to why she's so upset.
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I was thinking the same and took her to the doc yesterday afternoon. Nothing wrong with her apart from teething - 1 bottom one is through, the other SO close. I suggested the reflux again but talking with doc it doesn't appear that's the case.
Where do I even START with A times now, I'm so confused. I was doing PD in bed at 3hrs...
WU: 6.30
E: 6.45. Solids
A:
E: 7.45. Bottle
A:
S: 9.36; ? - 10.53. Maybe 1 hour, 1hr 5/10 min?
Do I decrease the 3hr A time for anything less than 1.5hrs? And if she's awake in bed but I don't get her out, how do I work out A time?
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What do you want to do wrt her upset? I think the options are:
1. Put her down for sleep when she appears tired and just wing it
2. PD in bed consistently at 3hr A time regardless of upset and watch for a week or so then tweak from there.
I understand feeling cruel keeping her up. I can encourage you to push through that if I thought it was definitely going to yield better naps consistently and then result in her being less upset through her A time. I'm just not convinced that's the case here since you've really tried this for quite a while. When I've got a bit of time, I'm going to trawl back through your thread and see if I can build a bit of a picture and see if there has been enough consistency to check if there's any longer term trends.
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To be honest, the last few days haven't been as bad... I don't know whether it's because that coincides with the teeth coming through or having slept through the night with no wakings so is a little more rested.
I'll keep pushing through with 3hrs but if she keeps waking at 40 minutes/1hr/1hr10/15 etc - what do i do!?
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Increase A to 3:15 and see how that goes.
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Ok, is that completely regardless of nap length??! Rest of our day has gone like this... Do I do an EBT of 6pm?
E: 11.30. Solids
A:
E: 1.00. Bottle
S: 2.02; ? - 2.40. Had a little chat/cry before falling asleep. Dozed with eyes 1/2 open for about 10 minutes at 2.40 before waking at 2.55! So a 30ish minute nap again.
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I'd increase before the equivalent nap the following day, so still do 2:45-3hr after short nap then do 3:15 the following day.
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Thanks Bec, I'll stick with 3hr15 for a few days. I only got 1hr5/10 this morning after that A...
BT: 5.56. Asleep 6.19
NW: 5.30. Fussed for about 25 minutes then slept on and off until wakeup.
WU: 7.00
E: 7.10. Solids
A:
E: 8.10. Bottle
A: park. Almost fell asleep in car
S: 10.13; 10.19/23 - 11.30
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Yes, stick with it a few days - it can take 3-4 days to get longer though usually the second day with longer A gives the longer nap, so FX for you!
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Thanks Bec!! I pulled back on the A time this afternoon after the short morning sleep and got a longer afternoon. Was a weird nap and she was quite unsettled waking and resettling regularly after the first hour but didn't wake properly properly until just after 2hrs. Was hoping to push bedtime a little later but hubby did her routine as I dealt with mr3 so got a bit off track.
E: 12.00
A:
E: 1.15. Bottle 150ml
A:
S: 2.18; 2.25-4.40. Woke and was quite restless every 10-20 minutes, after the first hour.
A:
E: 5.30. Solids
A:
E: 7.00. Bottle 200ml
BT: 7.15; 7.30 asleep.
NW/NF: 4.20-5.03
S: 5.05
WU: 7.30
E: 7.45. Solids
A:
E: 9.00. Bottle
A:
S: 10.41; asleep in 10 seconds!
^^ didn't make it to 3hrs15, she was so upset and tired from 10am it was horrible.
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S: 10.41; asleep in 10 seconds!
Out like a light! That was quick.
3:10 is pretty close, yk ;) If I'm looking on the bright side, I could say that she was upset from 2:30 rather than 2hr which is progress, no?
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Yes, she was positively exhausted!!
So that nap was 2 hours but with a waking after 1hr10min and 1.5 hrs but she resettled.
10.51, 12.10 wake.
E: 1.00. Solids.
How do I play the rest of the afternoon because even though unlikely, it has the potential to get very long does it not? 3:15 A from 12.45 is 4pm! Is this a catnap or capped nap to keep BT at 7/7.30?
Update....crashed on my bed at 3.35, woke by toddler screaming at 3.49 but then slept until 4.12. So not brilliant, woke crying and I have a mess of baby on my hands...again.
Given how truly tired she is I'm worried that her a is too long?! Both sleeps today she's collapsed in exhaustion. She shows all her tired signs all day!!
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Don't forget she's got some accumulated OT from the short naps. I think given she slept a long nap with those few wakings suggests you're on the right track A-time wise. Just give it a few more days to settle before changing anything, I think.
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I'll try, I just can't keep her occupied or interested in anything to make up her A time! It's most spent in my arms with me jumping up and down to make her happy which doesn't feel right.
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It's most spent in my arms with me jumping up and down to make her happy which doesn't feel right
No, doesn't sound right to me either :(
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It's like she's telling me; I'm tired put me down I have no interest in anything. then if I do, she short naps - maybe that's what she likes? I had her on my back in the ergo but she kept crying so I sat on my bed to take the carrier off and she lay down made a few sleepy sounds and when I turned around she was asleep having been completely awake in the ergo!
There doesn't seem anything else wrong with her other than showing all her tired signs all day, does that not indicate she is exactly that...tired? And I should put her to bed? :'( if I have to try really hard to keep her happy and awake then surely she should be in bed? Or maybe not?
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That's the dilemma. Is that time that she's happy whilst awake getting longer? If so, then I think worth keeping her up for another few days to see if it helps but otherwise I think probably good for both of you to make peace with winging it and having short naps.
FWIW, L wasn't comfortable in the Ergo on my back until more like 9 months - just a size thing, his legs didn't like being spread so far apart whilst they had to be straight, once he could bend his knees, he was happy in a carrier.
Tired signs are so tricky, yk? They're apt to mean any number of other things. For us, DS' hunger and tired cues overlapped and that made things tricky. Does she manage longer A times better at your parents' place?
What's she doing other than crying when she's upset?
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Thanks Bec, it's getting really tricky you know?
With a bigger dinner and an extra layer of clothing last night she slept 7pm-6am so really happy with that. She had a chat and roll around and I got her up around 6.30 when she started to get cranky.
She's better if we're out of the house or there are other people/heaps of stimulation but if we try to head home she's asleep in the car before i start the car (unfortunately they yield us a super short nap ever time!).
When she's upset she's really upset and I have to entertain her constantly. She'll he rubbing her eyes, yawning, clingy wanting to be held. Basically all signs that she's tired.
I couldn't keep her up this morning, she was crying with her eyes closed trying to fall asleep when I put her down! She's even started sucking her finger to self soothe. I hope she doesn't keep doing it - I'm still trying to break my 3.5yo's finger sucking habit.
WU: 6.00
OOB: 6.30
E: 6.45. Bottle 160ml
A:
E: 7.30. Solids
S: 9.22; 9.27-9.55 (woke crying but rolled into her tummy and resettled after 10 minutes). Woke at 11.30!
E: 11.40. Bottle
A:
E: 12.30. Solids
A:
S: 2.37; 2.41-4.09
^^ quite upset going down but slept ok!
E: 4.15. Bottle
A:
E: 5.15. Solids
A:
E: 6.30. Bottle
BT: 7.00; 7.05
Quite possibly the best day she's had EVER in regards to total day sleep. Hmmm lets hope our night is ok!
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A few little cry outs randomly at 4.50-5.00 but then slept through until 6.45! Oh I'm so happy. Little miss tummy sleeper. Do I do the A3hr15ish A from 6.45 or 7.00 when hubby got her l up!?
Such a shame she short napped, thought we were onto a good thing! Can't we just get 2 days consistent?
WU: 6.45
Cot play: ~ 7.00
E: 7.00. Small bottle 100ml
A:
E: 8.00. Solids
A:
S: 9.57; 10.00 at latest - 10.35. She tried to resettle but couldn't so OOB at 11.18.
^ asleep almost on my shoulder, really quick asleep in cot.
E: 11.30. absolutely smashed a bottle (hungry?)
A:
E: 12.45. solids
A:
S: 2.30; 2.33 - 4.30. Woke at 3.03 but resettled then dozed silently from 3.37-4.00 (wouldn't have known otherwise without the baby monitor, eyes half closed/open).
E: 4.40. bottle 180ml
A:
E: 5.45. solids
A:
E: 7.10. Bottle
BT: 7.30; 7.37 asleep by.
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A few little cry outs randomly at 4.50-5.00 but then slept through until 6.45! Oh I'm so happy.
YAY!!! That's a great night :D You must feel a new woman.
So, this A increase is yielding some results. I think she could well have been hungry during that first nap with such a small WU feed :-/ I guess all you can do is a topup an hour or two later if she takes a small amount at WU, yk?
Still, a better PM nap - how was your night?
Working out what to call cot awake time is hard - its so dependent on the baby and what their play is, yk? She looks like you'd call it about half, so if playing in cot for 10min, count 5min as A time. In the end I just got DS up when he woke because I couldn't work him out and it was easier that way :P That's not working out so well now at 5 when he wakes at 4:30 but we're getting there with resettling now its coming into winter.
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YAY!!! That's a great night You must feel a new woman
Most definitely! A few more please Audrey. We're moving house in 3 weeks so I hope she continues :(
Still, a better PM nap - how was your night?
So she slept approx 7.30-6.30! So a longer night with more day sleep?
I'll top her up after breakfast if she has a small feed in the morning. I'm finding it easier to keep her awake without having the bottle feed after solids. Although it could also be having hubby here means there's someone else to take her and play - extra stimulation for her and she doesn't seem as whingy etc.
I think I'll get Audrey up too...just not this long weekend, little bit more sleep required.
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So she slept approx 7.30-6.30! So a longer night with more day sleep?
Yep, sleep begets sleep - those long A times yield better naps and better night sleep.
Yes, it can just be extra stimulation that's keeping her happy. I know L was really bored if I stayed home with him - had to be out every A time, even if it was just for a walk to the park so he could sit and watch other people or to the shopping centre so there was some interaction. What can I say, he's an extrovert, I'm an introvert and I ran out of energy to keep him entertained once his A time got past 2hr :P I needed his naps more than he did, I think.
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Haha! That sounds like me and Audrey except I'm an extrovert who just gets lazy! Only got 1hr15min this morning :( the two hour nap yesterday afternoon came after a 4 hour A! Surely that's not her normal since she only slept 40 minutes this afternoon? Hunger? UT?
WU: 6.26!
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.10; 180ml
A:
E: 8.10. Solids
A:
S: 10.03; 10.08; 11.24 (1hr15)
E: 11.35. Bottle small.
A:
E: 12.40. Solids. Finger food only as we were out.
A:
S: 2.37: 2.41-3.21
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Was she hungry when she woke? Possibly UT :-/ I guess since she's had a few good nights in a row, she could be ready for more A again. How has her A time been?
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she played quietly for 20 minutes and then cried so hubby fed her and she took quite a substantial bottle!! So;
S: 2.37; 2.41-3.21.
E: 3.40. bottle approx 180ml
A:
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.05. bottle
BT: 6.22; 6.42 asleep by.
^^ I did BT tonight for Audrey tonight rather than hubby and she seemed to get a second wind after her bottle (which she was super sleepy/eyes closing on). Took her a while to settle but just chatting, looking around then dozing before finally closing her eyes fully.
NW: 3.30-3.40 crying
NF: 3.40-3.55
S: 3.55; 4.05-?
WU: ? Was awake when I woke at 6.45
E: 7.00. Solids
A:
E: 8.30. Bottle only 100ml
A: vaccinations :(
S: 10.10-10.50 (car)
E: 11.30. Solids
A:
E: 1.00. Bottle
Her A's are ok, aiming to have her PD in bed at 3hrs15min and 3hrs if a short nap. She's not as cranky as she used to be but still quite hard to read. once you take her to her room then all the tired signs come hard and fast but before that, not AS many as before.
Reading some other posts here on BW many say that 1hr10/15min naps are OT yet the longer naps for her are coming USUALLY after far longer A times than what she's doing. I don't mind getting out with her to spend her A it's the travel home where I'm finding she'd very very happily fall asleep before I even started the car.
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Reading some other posts here on BW many say that 1hr10/15min naps are OT
IME, this is the case at an older age than 6mo - more so when LO is on one nap.
S: 10.10-10.50 (car)
Longer than you usually get in the car, no?
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Ok thanks for clarifying Bec! Much appreciated
Yes! The longest we've ever had - 40 minutes, what an achievement!! :o :D
I've pulled A time back substantially and I know it will backfire but she was so cranky and upset, likely from her needles, so I put her down at 1.30. Will either go for a quick CN or EBT at 6.
ETA: ok, 1hr30min with a quick chat/cry out after 40 minutes but she rolled onto her tummy and resettled. Is a 6.15 BT ok?
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Yep, fair enough - everything goes out the window with vaccinations.
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This was our random day today :( unfortunately every time I check the monitor tonight she doesn't appear to be asleep - either eyes open but still or 1/2 closed and dozing. Only a handful of times does she look fast asleep. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong!? I've got kindy pickup and drop off tomorrow and Friday. How do I play things if she's due a nap right at the time or shortly before I have to leave to drop off or pickup?
These naps where she wakes in the middle of the second sleep cycle must be so bad for her, she's starting to get really cranky again.
WU: 5.51-6.02
OOB: 6.30
E: 6.45. bottle 100ml
A:
E: 8.00. Solids
A:
S: 9.30-10.45 (pram Pushed into her room after walk).
E: 12.00. Solids.
A: shopping. Had to keep her awake in the car.
E: 1.45. Bottle 160ml.
S: 2.00; 2.10-2.30 (20min). 2.36-3.06 (30min). 3.15-3.20 (5 min)
^^ was very awake/alert so possibly OS and OT?
E: 4.20. Solids
A:
E: 5.45. Bottle 200ml!
BT: 5.58; 6.15 at the latest but woke after 30 minutes! She has settled back down though but very restless still 2 hours into night sleep...
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S: 2.00; 2.10-2.30 (20min). 2.36-3.06 (30min). 3.15-3.20 (5 min)^^ was very awake/alert so possibly OS and OT?
Those wakings look OS, yes.
Little OT at BT too :(
Keep in mind she may still be a little off colour with the vaccinations. The immune response does give symptoms, so I'd take all issues with a grain of salt at the moment.
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Ok so OT all around despite heaps of cuddles but she seems to be doing okay with vaccinations...
Tonight is the first night in months that she's cried at bedtime. She was falling asleep on her bottle, was quiet for 10 minutes when I put her down and now crying and can't settle so I had to rock her to sleep. First time ever that I've done that, is she going to forget she can self settle?!
Thursday 28/5
WU: 6.40.
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.10. Solids
A:
E: 9.00. Bottle 180ml
A: rubbing eyes 9.37
S: 10.04; 10.09-12.17
E: 12.30. Solids
A:
E: 2.00. Bottle 200ml
A: made it home in the car.
S: 3.27; 3.35-4.05 (30 minutes). Waiting until she started crying after 15 minutes to get her up, 4.20.
^^ We read a book, had a cuddle in chair then lay her down on her side - didn't cry at all yet slept so little.
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.30. Bottle 240ml
BT: 6.50; 7.20.
^^ quiet for 10 minutes and then crying! Hasn't cried at bedtime for so long. I just rocked her in my arms until she was asleep then popped her down.
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First time ever that I've done that, is she going to forget she can self settle?!
IME, so long as the APOP is temporary (ie. you don't go back to AP for 3 months for every single sleep), its fine. I find once they're through the illness/developmental period/ the routine is right (though that's a struggle with young Miss A) LO's go back to sleeping fine.
A little help when LO is OT is way better than leaving them to figure it out, I think, they're not in the best condition to be learning anything when OT.
Lovely morning nap :)
Not so flash PM nap, hence OT at BT. Interesting she didn't cry when she woke at 30min - have you tried resettling those?
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I find it extremely difficult to resettle because I have back issues and any prolonged period of either sitting or standing aggravates it (I've already had surgery...). When she's in the portacot I find it so hard to resettle her as she's on the lowest setting and I can't get down to shush or pat or anything. Usually once she's awake...she's awake...and I just don't have the time or energy to spend long periods trying to resettle.
I'm also finding it extremely difficult to get to and from kindy for my 3.5yo and fitting in any crappy nap I can... Is there any way I could work out an easy with a small catnap in the morning and a longer midday/afternoon nap with perhaps an EBT? Today was great because I dropped DS and then put miss A in the pram and she slept 40/50 minutes whilst I had a walk and a coffee. Unfortunately our lunch time nap was only 1hr20min but she was falling asleep in her lunch so I put her down. Thought she might have done a bit better? Anywho, these early wakings, short and unrestorative naps are going to kill me soon.
Perhaps I could do a nap a couple of hours after wakeup for 30-45 minutes (likel apop in the pram or car) and then aim for a longer one of 2-2.5 hrs from 12.30 or so? I don't know... It would really help me work around drop off and pick up and a little more 'go with the flow'.
Friday 29/5
WU: 6.00
OOB: 6.20
E: 6:30. Solids
A:
E: 7.50. Bottle.
A:
S: 9.00-9.45/50
E: 10.45. Bottle 200ml
A:
E: 11.45. Solids but was falling asleep and constantly rubbing her eyes/not eating.
S: 12.00; 12.07-1.26 Just laying in bed for over 20 minutes, haven't got her up yet.
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Sure, sounds like a good idea - worth a try anyway. Walk and coffee sounds good! It might be a bit of a faff trying to work out optimal A time after a short nap - maybe 3hr? Are you thinking set naps at all? Could be worth trying...
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hi Bec! so rather than screaming the whole way in the car she actually fell asleep for 20 minutes in the car. I think if we're in the car after a short nap closer to 3hrs she's just too OT to settle. We were back on the road after 2 hours awake and she whinged and played but did actually fall asleep after 2hr40min A. Awake at 4.15 and DH is settling her tonight at 7pm.
Yes, so how would set naps work? I honestly was thinking something along the lines of;
WU: fx for anything later than 6am?
Nap 1: 9.00-9.30/9.45 in either car or pram. Cot if I can't get out and about.
Nap 2: 12.30-2.30/3 (this might be wishful thinking?
BT: 6/6.30/7 ????
What would BT be as this plan leaves a VERY long time until bed. If that second nap is only 1.5 or 1.20 like today or gosh, even less at 30/40 minutes then I'm in trouble aren't we?
I'm just trying to reduce as much stress on everyone. I could do this version of EASY on preschool days and long naps on the other days but then there's just no consistency which is what I want to give her. If I could pick some times and just stick to it come hell or high water then maybe things would improve? Having said that, I can't be stuck at home waiting for a nap to start or end right at the time I'd need to leave to drop off or pickup. Kindy is 8.30-3.30. Drop off is variable so I thought that would be the easiest to tailor to nap time (even if I get him there early and go for a long coffee walk like i did today) whereas he can't be at kindy any later than 3.30.
Please let me know your thoughts, I'm keen to try anything with hubby home this weekend to help.
Many thanks for all your ongoing support (16 pages is just purely ridiculous, I'm so sorry).
ETA: crying again tonight at bedtime! Quiet and calm when put down after a big bottle but soon got upset before falling asleep...so;
Nap 3: 3.53-4.15
BT: 6.556; 7.07 with a little crying
NW: cry out at 11.35 resettled herself after a few minutes until 11.48.
DH and I resettled (cuddle to calm in our arms then pat in cot) twice for 1/2 hour each time but both times we left her quiet and assuming asleep, she cried when we got back into bed.
NF: 1.05. 180ml bottle
S: 1.15 -
Is that an OT, NW? Perhaps we should have fed straight away but she had a huge dinner and an almost 300ml bottle just before bed, when she can go all night on far less surely she can go longer on such a huge amount?
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I think 9 and 12:30 would be reasonable for set naps. I would cap at 45min rather than 30. I guess I would then say BT at 6:30 latest, ideally 6 as she doesn't tend to do well with a long A to bed :-/ I guess having to be at kindy at 3:30 is a bit of a barrier to a later BT/WU. I would think with one short nap and one long one, she'd do a long night so long as it doesn't make her OT. Its a balance to strike but I think it would be ok for her given her general trends.
If that second nap is shorter, I think you have to either do a super early BT (but that can backfire) and hope she tacks on or try for another catnap in there.
WRT crying in the car before sleep - L developed a car-specific mantra cry, still happens at 5yo... its just a different cry that I now know he'll sleep in the car but it does escalate quite a bit with a hum sort of sound in it just before he drops off. Maybe she is just OT and can't settle - nice she can settle if she's been in the car for a while.
That waking doesn't sound so much like OT or UT - maybe the big dinner was just gurgling around and its still a strange sensation to her? Could be dreams...
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Oh man...the desire to make things better is there but I just couldn't wake her!! What a great start :-\
WU: 6.40
OOB/e: 7.00 (100ml Max!)
A:
E: 8.00. Solids
S: 9.15; 9.18-11.14!
^ protested but sleeps 2 hours? I know we had a crappy night but that A was only a little over 2.5hrs...
Hmmm, I give up!
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Her night really makes a difference! That or her body is well suited to set naps and she'll sleep ok at that time. Or she's just feeling the sleep mood today :P
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Bahaha, it does doesn't it?! So incredibly frustrating. so what should I do?! This kid is seriously going to kill me and her! If I wasn't to do a short nap and just set naps in general, how do I determine these A times? You'd think 3hrs would be more suitable for her ages but gosh it's confusing. Should I make a new post or something in naps or what do you suggest? Her morning wake and night is so unpredictable that I can't even pick a place to start.
So, this afternoon she fell asleep in my arms at 2.40pm during wind down (3hr20m A) but woke 40 minutes later and very quickly started crying. I'm beginning to wonder if 40 minutes is OT?
Tried to resettle herself from 3.20-3.40. Then I sat with her and cuddled and she drifted back off to sleep but of course my phone rang and woke her up just after 4.
She cried at bedtime again just before 7pm. Briefly but so unusual...
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She's not ill or anything? Is she picking up some of the bugs H brings home from preschool? I just find it hard to account for the variation in A time.
I think reasonable for her to wake but not be happy to be awake at 40min even if it is UT, its not a restorative nap, yk, and sometimes its just that the surroundings have changed from when she fell asleep. I know with L, regardless of OT/UT/perfect A time, he would wake at 40min upset if he'd gone to sleep one place or one way and woken somewhere else, so the sleep cycles still happen but she's not transitioned due to being somewhere other than where she was when she fell asleep. That included if I had a shower once he was asleep and the shower was off (of course it was!).
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no, not ill at the moment but she has picked up some of his germs in the past...Teething perhaps?
When I said she fell asleep she was 'almost' asleep but she wasn't asleep when I put her in the cot but very very very drowsy so she drifted off pretty quickly. but i totally see your point. my DS was the same with your shower scenario!
very lost with what to do or when; second day in a row she's been back in bed after 2hr35A in the morning and she's slept 2 hours! Do I keep that consistency across the day? I only got 40 minutes yesterday after a 2hr nap and 3hr20 A but perhaps that was too long?
Ok; so I did 3hr15 A. Poor possum seemed tired and went to sleep quickly in a couple of minutes. She woke after 40 minutes but I thought she'd gone back to sleep as she was quiet and still for 10 minutes but no luck, she started crying :(
NF: 5.00.
Sunday 1/5
WU: 7.30
E: 8.00. Solids
A:
E: 9.00. Bottle
S: 10.05; 10.10-11.57
E: 12.30. Solids
A:
E: 1.40. Bottle
A:
S: 3.15; 3.19-3.50; quietly dozed until 4.03.
E: 4.30. snack
A:
E: 5.15. Solids
A:
E: 6.30. Bottle
BT: 6.55; 7.05 asleep by.
WU: 6.00 crying so could have been earlier
E: 6.20. Solids
A:
E: 7.40. Bottle
A:
S: 8.36; 8.48 at the latest - 10.00!
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Talk about shifting goalposts, eh!? Wow, I think in your shoes, I'd do set naps at 9:30 and 12:30, cap the first one and cross my fingers for a long afternoon nap before kindy pickup. I think you'd have to do it consistently for at least a week before you'd know if it was going to work though :-/
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This is what's even crazier Bec!! The rest of our day as follows... I think I'm just going to aim for max of 3hrs watching her signs and roll with the day as it pans out - 40 minute naps or more. Some days may be 3 naps, others 2, and yank her out of bed for kindy drop off/pickup until she shifts to one nap, there's just no rhyme or reason
E: 11.00. Solids
A:
E: 12.20. Bottle
A:
S: 12.48; 12.51-3.18. (Restless...but RS herself at 1.24, 2.17 & 2.30)
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.00. Bottle
BT: 6.27; 6.37 asleep by!
I had such great intentions with capping the first nap but my heart isn't in it...I just can't do it!! Lol. I have to give her all she'll do in the day if I need to fiddle around getting DS places.
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I think you've given it a good go for a few months, rolling with it based on your ideas there sounds like a good idea. Makes it hard to plan anything but I guess then you just have some days you plan appointments and some you don't and just leave it at that, yk?
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Thanks for respond Bec, I think you're right, time to let go. Lol. She won't let me fix naps, maybe when she's on 1 nap?! Perhaps you could take a look at the below and see what kind of track we're on? That bottle after lunch I think she got a second wind and I was SUPER lucky to get the longer nap because she woke, stirred, looked around, had a quick chat several times before falling back to sleep...
WU: 6.00
E: 6.30. Solids
A:
E: 8.00. Bottle
A:
S: 9.00; 9.05-9.30-10.30/10.35
E: 10.45. Snack.
A:
E: 11.45. Solids
A:
E: 12.50. Bottle. Rubbing eyes constantly and falling asleep.
A: quietly playing in my arms.
S: 1.28; 1.33-3.41
^^ woke, stirred, chatted briefly at 2.06, 2.19, 3.00!
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Well, she's got excellent independent sleep skills :)
She may just be a smart little cookie - that's sometimes the bright side with these ones who give us trouble wrt sleep and wake for a chat to themselves...
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Haha, I wish those skills transcended to all all sleeps, day and night!
Last night she woke at 3am. I fed her after 10 minutes of failed settling but I'm really beginning to think she doesn't need food but I have no other way to settle her :(
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.20;
S: 6.45; 7.00 asleep by.
NF: 3.00;
S 3.35-7.00
Wednesday 4/5
WU: 7.00
E: 7.20. Solids
A:
E: 8.50. Bottle (not much)
A:
S: 9.50; 10.15-10.40 (car)
E: 11.30. Solids
A:
S: 1.07; 1.19-1.42.
E: 2.18
S: 2.28; 2.55 - asleep at 3.27...
Total mess :( I need the car naps to extend and I have no idea what happened in the middle :( if she was UT why pull an OT/OS nap - she was really really tired too.
She was down for the night asleep by 7.30 but SO restless and called out at all these times before waking for the day at 5.53!! What would that be?!
1.15
3.11
3.28
4.45
5.00
5.53
Falling asleep exhausted on night bottle each night at the 3hr A time. Should I move back to 2.5? But that could mean a 5/5.30 BT most nights. Also, when do I change the bt routine to include teeth brushing versus now where it's only minutes before into bed.
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Argggg 5am wakeups are going to kill me!!! She cries out and then does so intermittently until after 6 but not really cryin and certainly not full on or continuous. Then she just babbles and whinges and moans until I get her closet to 6.30/7!
1hr 10 minute naps are not restorative enough!! How the hell do I get rid of them?!?!? After being awake so early this morning and nap at 9.25-10.36 - what do I do with her now? She just lays there babbling away quietly for 20 minutes at the moment... Second nap was the same 1hr10 minutes and after crying all the way home again in the car she's only just in bed at 6.30 and is so OT she can't fall asleep or stay asleep.
I feel SO useless and so upset. I can't read her at all anymore :(
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If you're consistently getting 1:10 naps, that would typically mean she needs a bump in A time. Is that still a drama with her upset for an hour before nap time?
2hr40 A time off a 25min nap - maybe OT rather than UT...
I don't know how to extend your car naps :( wish I had a magic wand!
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If I get the first nap wrong the whole day is a write off! The more I push the A, the shorter her naps become! The short naps mean her E and A (especially solids and milk) are getting so messed up that I'm practically feeding to sleep because she's just not hungry and if I fed her before a nap and she sleeps an hour, it can be hours until she's hungry but by then she's OT!
I don't even know what A time I'm doing anymore so it's hard to reduce it for the next nap! Makes i also difficult with her waking so early because I don't want to get up that early but she's not that upset that I would go to her or even offer a feed!
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Ok, can you try for say 3:15/3:30 A time? Just you have shrinking first nap and WU for the day is moving earlier - both mean it time to increase A time in the AM. I think you're right - that first nap is often key. Miss A does go off the rails more than others I've seen but its common for that first nap to be the key.
I do wonder if you would do a sliding scale of A time, say 3:30, 3, 2:30 between naps. I don't know if that would work for her but its something I suggest given her reduced tolerance for longer A times as the day goes on.
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This morning;
WU: 6.00
Out of bed: 6.30
Nap: 9.30-10.06! Has lay quietly playing with comforter and trying to fall back asleep for almost an hour!!!
Poor hubby; he's taking both kids out to a bbq lunch.
I'll try that sliding A scale! Should I do A from the time she wakes or the time I get her up because that was 3.5 this morning from wake up and she slept 30/35 minutes! I don't understand her at. All.
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Not sure I do either... I would got from WU at least initially
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Happy Mother's Day Bec!! Hope you have a fabulous day. x
We didn't make it this morning so our day is so messed up!
WU: 6.00
OOB: 6.30
E: 7.00. Solids
A:
E: 8.00. Bottle
S: 9.26; 9.30-10.06 (cot)
S: 12.40-1.20 (car)
S: 4.15-4.45 (car)
S: 5.50-5.00 (car)
BT: 7.00; asleep by 7.30
NW: 9.05 crying for 5 minutes
NW: 3.00 stirring and crying out for a little while but settled again
WU: 6.50 first call out chatting
E: 7.30. Solids
A:
E: 9.40-9.50. Completely passed out on her bottle and in my arms when I burped her :(
S: ~10.20 woke when I tried to put her in her cot :(
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Happy mothers' day :)
Maybe your present can be hubby being responsible for Miss A's sleep for a day ;)
Try to relax about it a bit today. Tomorrow is another day. xx
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Hubby was amazing and did everything for both kids yesterday. This is how he day panned out and also this morning...just can't crack even a 1.5hr nap. I'm trying so hard to push the A but she's falling asleep in my arms after I change her nappy and put down in her cot.
Sunday
WU: 6.50 first call out chatting
E: 7.30. Solids
A:
E: 9.40-9.50. Completely passed out on her bottle and in my arms when I burped her.
S: ~10.20 woke when I tried to put her in her cot. Left her to fall back asleep.
S: 11.20-12.55
E: 1.15. Solids
A:
E: 2.45. Bottle
A:
S: 3.58; 4.07-4.39. 4.41-4.44
E: 5.20. Solids
A:
E: 6.40. Bottle
BT: 7.00; 7.15
Monday
WU: 6.26
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.20. Solids
A:
E: 8.30. Bottle
S: 9.26; 9.30-10.50
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.00. Bottle
S: 1.53; 2.00-4.03
A:
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 6.00. bottle
BT: 6.23; 7.25!!!
^^ cried putting sleep bag on and going down to bed - I'm assuming UT. as she never cries at BT! I went back in and tucked her in after DH put her down but she fussed for an hour. Note to self, 2hr nap before bed can't be 2.5 A.
Also had a super long upset night waking around 3am! Couldn't get her back down until 4.30 and she was awake when I woke at 7 so not sure how long she was up :(
Tuesday
WU: awake when i woke at 7am.
OOB: 7.10
E: 7.20. Solids
A:
E: 8.40. Bottle
A:
S: 10.15-10.45 at the most (Pram)
E: 11.30. Solids
A:
E: 1.00. Bottle
A:
S: 1.40; 1.45-4.15 with a brief waking at 3.25-3.30.
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.40. Bottle
BT: 7.00; 7.15 asleep
^^ Terribly unhappy after her nap. Crying constantly, only wanting to be in my arms. I wonder if teething??
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^^ Terribly unhappy after her nap. Crying constantly, only wanting to be in my arms. I wonder if teething??
Maybe. Could also be some OT from the long A after the OT first nap - that long nap could be a nap she just crashed for, no?
Glad you had a good mothers' day :)
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What A time should I do after a nap less than 1.5hrs? I'm pushing 3hrs currently but if she short naps the afternoon it's almost too late for a catnap (by the time she falls asleep I'd need to wake her).
Today was;
WU: 6.44
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.15. Solids
A:
E: 9.00. Bottle
S: 9.50; 9.57 - 11.06
A:
E: 11.45. Solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
A:
S: 2.10-2.40 (car)
E: 4.00. Solids
A:
E: 5.30. Bottle
3hrs after a good nap, 2.5 after a short nap but that often leaves me with a 5/5.30 BT! A quick CN is hard at that time with my older ds and brings BT up to 8.30/9!
BT tonight: 5.50. Wouldn't settle; had to rock portacot until asleep at 6.20ish only to wake crying at 8.30 and 9.30 screaming and took half an hour to settle again.
The last two days she's crashed in the afternoon twice after 3hr A.
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3hrs after a good nap, 2.5 after a short nap but that often leaves me with a 5/5.30 BT! A quick CN is hard at that time with my older ds and brings BT up to 8.30/9!
Yeah, I can see that :-/ I guess its really down to your preference for when the long day is to get her back on track - either bite the bullet, do a late CN and make the day long and hope she sleeps later in the morning pushing BT later (though there is a risk with BT as late as 8:30-9pm that she'll have a short night due to OT) or do an EBT and hope she tacks on for a 6am waking with a longer day the next day to try to make BT later. Its really a catch 22 with those short naps which you seem guaranteed to get when driving. If you were to do a CN, you could do a very short one which wouldn't extend your BT as late, so 15-20min would only buy you another 1-1.5hr max but she would be very likely to be miserable through that A time.
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Thanks for helping Bec!
She woke so often last night and was crying again at 12.30 and nothing soothed her but gave a bottle and she took ages to settle back to sleep after it. Woke at 5/6 and fell back asleep at some point and then up at 7.00. This morning at 3hr A she went down crying and only slept 30/35 minutes. Woke talking to herself and then crying after 15 minutes :(
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Sounds like she's unwell/teething - that's a very unsettled night :(
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It was so bad...one of our worsts!! Her cheeks have popped up bright red so maybe teeth?? I'm giving nurofen and doing the best I can to get her rest but kinda swimming upstream. Lol
2 x 30 minute naps today :(
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Every night she's waking up 2-2.5hrs after bedtime crying and this can go on for ages with great difficulty settling and I end up feeding her! I don't know what to do?!
S: 9.45-10.30 a small sleep somewhere in there in the car
S: 1.08; 1.13-2.41
BT: 6.00; 6.17 asleep by.
NW: 8.40 and we're still trying to settle her 2 hours later!!! We've patted, shushed, Wi/wo, fed her (she drank it all) but still crying! Gave her teething gel and nurofen but still nothing. This is killing me and our family...
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Is she trying to settle in between bouts of crying or just crying inconsolably? Has she been ok with nurofen before? We had 3hr of inconsolable crying with DS when I gave him nurofen - he gets horrendous gut side effects. If she's inconsolable for that long, its almost certainly pain I would say.
If she's struggling to get back to sleep, trying, then crying, then its more possible its OT - and I don't doubt it based on her day.
I just wish I could come and look after her for a day or two so you could get a rest.
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I don't think it was pain, she was TRYING to settle but then couldn't and would cry again - but only brief pauses. Moaning like she was tired.
We've moved house yesterday and first night last night. I tried to give her a bottle before her bath and then cuddle and put down but no, she wouldn't settle so I ended up going back in and giving her more (by which time she fell asleep on it). So that was 7.30. 1am she woke crying and again trying to settle but no luck so again; milk but drank under 100ml and then cried when I put her back in the cot because she used it to fall back asleep whilst I was feeding her....
Thanks for the offer to help. I'm just so lost. With all the short naps she's feeding terribly. Never ever wants a bottle - whether it's before or after solids she's drinking maybe 100ml at most except for her bt one where I think she keeps drinking to purely get herself to sleep. I burp her after, sing a few songs and then put her down but it's not a long gap between bottle and bed - is it a prop?! The child has absolutely no weight issues and is eating plenty of solids/finger foods (not much milk) so I REALLY don't think any waking she has is because she's hungry....
Again; first nap in her cot today and after waking at 6.30 with nap at 9.30 she's only slept 30-40 minutes but she has quietly resettled for the moment - I'm really hoping she pulls a little bit longer.
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We always had sleep disruptions with moving house, even at 4... Smells a bit different, room is strange, etc.
I agree given the nights you've had, she's unlikely to be hungry.
I don't think that the bottle is a prop - if she's awake between bottle and sleep, its fine, really.
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Hmmm, so what can I do in the night? At the moment she can't even self settle to go to sleep... The below was our day - better than usual but still pretty crappy to be honest.
WU: 6.26
E: 7.00. Solids
A:
E: 8.20. Bottle (not much!)
A:
A: 9.30. 9.40-10.15. Resettled 2.25-11.10
E: 12.20. Solids
A:
S: 1.15. Attempted sleep as was constantly rubbing eyes and grizzling but could tell quickly she wasn't going to settle so got her up.
E: 1.30. Again, not much milk. I thought she would be hungry with not much lunch.
A:
S: 2.20. 2.30ish-3.43 (I accidentally slammed a cupboard and i think that woke her!)
A:
E: 4.50. Solids
A:
E: 6.20. Not much milk again compared to usual, But seemed very awake/alert (too much considering she was showing all tired signs way earlier)
BT: 6:35. Great difficulty settling; crying and whinging for the last 30 minutes and still going.
Took until 7.30. I went and cuddled and she got out another burp, then lay back down in cot and held my hands on her and shushed with some lullaby music on. Poor thing... What should I do to help her? Is she forgetting how to self settle?
Aaaaaand woken 40 minutes later crying :( chronically OT now with NW's at;
1.00
4.07
4.39
4.52
5.02
5.16
5.25 (nurofen) - 5.43
NF: 5.43 (small 120ml bottle, drank it all, asleep in seconds).
S: 5.52; 5.54-6.50!! Really? Just an hour?
Each lasting anywhere from a couple of minutes to up to 20. She wasn't as hysterical as last night and seemed to be settling after each burst but then starts again! Aftee 5am I suspected pain so gave her nurofen but she wouldn't settle after I left so gave her a small bottle and she fell back to sleep pretty quickly.
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That very unsettled night could well be pain/illness too.
Any luck with naps after that shocker of a night?
Looks like she fell asleep as the nurofen kicked in - takes a bit of time to work, yk?
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Oh it was a horrible night!! I rang mum in tears today asking for advice on what I should do with her. No surprise she had nothing. Lol.
Ok, so I let her sleep (and made her fall back asleep) today for naps because I knew she was tired. I didn't really follow times just put her down when she started to get fussy and not happy despite changing activities. I pulled back the A times slightly to try and help her catch up at least...
Unfortunately our new house is quite open with floor boards throughout so I'm finding that both naps today she was woken unintentionally with noise (AM nap was a dog outside and PM nap was me banging a pan in the kitchen!). I've put a vaporiser on in her room but I'd hardly call it white noise - do you have any suggestions for what I could use or will she get used to it? I've had to buy some black out curtains as her room gets the morning sun and is very bright.
BT my husband was back home and of course, no crying for him! Lol.
WU: 6.50
OOB: 7.15
E: 7.40
A:
E: 8.30. 120ml bottle
A:
S: 9.40; 9.42-10.16.
^^ woke crying as a dog started barking :( was trying to settle and fell asleep briefly but woke again at 10.30
S: 10.55-11.47
E: 12.15. solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
S: 2.25; 2.35-3.10-4.07 (woke crying after 35 minutes as I accidentally woke her banging in the kitchen but she resettled).
E: 5.10. Solids
A:
E: 6.20. Bottle
BT: 6.45; slight crying but asleep by 7.00!
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Off the back of yesterday she pulled a 12hr night (but unsettled briefly at 5am but resettled herself!)
Morning nap she was really visibly tired so put her down at 2hr50 A and she was asleep at 3hr A. Woke after 1hr 15/20min. Should I adjust next A at all?
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I probably would just go with 2:50/3hr again.
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This is what happened today Bec! Her A times are getting shorter and her A to BT tonight was 3hrs and she's crying and screamed when hubby put her down and won't settle vs last night at 2.5 A she was asleep in 10-15 minutes quietly. She was tired at dinner, rubbing food in her eyes so I think she's picked up a second wind tonight as she's crying but eyes are wide awake.
WU: 7.00
E: 7.30. Solids
A:
E: 8.30. Bottle
A: 2hr50 into bed
S: 9.50; 10.00-11.17
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.10. Bottle
A: 2hr45 into bed
S: 2.00; 2.06-2.36! Then resettled until 3.40
^^ went down crying and fussing. Difficulty settling
E: 4.00. Snack
A:
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.10. Bottle
BT: 6.30; not asleep until after 7 and kept crying out 45+ minutes later
^^ screaming/crying and very upset :(
NW: 11.24. Seemed stuck on tummy was crying. Held my hands on her until she fell back asleep at 11.38
NW: 11.24
NW: 3.00-4.40. Trying to settle her PLUS 2 bottles later she finally went back to sleep!!!
Of course my 3.5yo decided to wake her up as he had an equally crappy night and ended up in our bed after Audrey woke him up at 11 and he couldn't get back to sleep.
Cooooffffffffeeeeeeeee. STAT.
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WU: 7.00E: 7.30. SolidsA:E: 8.30. BottleA: 2hr50 into bedS: 9.50; 10.00-11.17
Little bit UT here, but I'm guessing she was upset for an hour before you put her into bed...
I think she does seem to need that shorter A to bed.
Just a thought - she's not hot or cold is she? I know that probably isn't it but worth considering, used to be one of my first set of questions.
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Morning Bec! I just updated my post with the remainder of our shocking night! Why does it vary so much?!? And my 3.5yo is in MAJOR trouble after deliberately going into her room and waking her before 6!!
I don't think she's too hot or cold...maybe at the 3am waking but after trying to settle her I offered a small bottle and she drank it all and cried when it finished. Back to bed and she cried again until I offered another small bottle - she fell asleep on it and went back to bed! I turned on the aircon after that and I know she would have slept a bit longer too.... Sigh....
I don't know what I'm doing with A or E. She's having table food only now but an hour after when I offer a bottle she only wants maybe 100ml at most. She drank more today because she was tired and I offered it 2 hours after solids but isn't that too close to bed and affect her next solids and milk feeds?
WU: toddler woke her up before 6. Awake at 6.30 when I woke.
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.30. Solids.
A: had to go shopping so missed her bottle E and then had to feed super close to S.
E: 9.30. Had to feed in her room as she wouldn't drink. was falling asleep on bottle
S: 9.50; 9.55-11.51. She was unsettled after the first 30-45 minutes but fell back to sleep.
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It does seem like the bottle is involved somehow in those early morning wakings. It sounds like maybe a bit of a prop or throat bothering her if she's crying for more and falling asleep on it. :(
That's interesting that she's doing a 2hr nap off about 4hr A time! That's a lot but that's what we thought initially re: high A times :-/ How was she while you were shopping?
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What should I do if it is such a prop? Not give it? Attempt resettling forever?
She was okay whilst shopping but after the 2hr nap she was so fussy. Crying a lot - not happy on the floor, not happy in my arms so put her down after 2hr 20min, asleep at 2.5hr A. She did a 1hr 20 minute nap which is interesting, I thought I would have got a short nap...
She's not drinking a lot - if anything - she only had some chicken and avocado pieces for lunch yet struggled to drink 60ml. Could this all be teething? She seems uncomfortable and unhappy...
E: 12.15. Solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
S: 2.11; 2.20-3.40
^^cried
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 5.50. Bottle
BT: 6.11; 6.33 after rolling onto tummy and crying!
NW: 7.20! Crying.
NW: 10.30. Crying
NW: 11.30. Crying, won't stop!
So whilst my 3.5yo put himself to bed at 6 because he was sick of waiting for me to finish with Audrey I'm still trying to get her to sleep!! I put her down at 6.11, she was rubbing her eyes in the bath, falling asleep on her bottle and yet went into to cot awake only to start crying less than 5 minutes later. She rolls onto her stomach and just keeps crying but won't/can't roll back!
I'm sitting here feeling so upset :( I just don't know what to do. I don't want to be doing this anymore - shouldn't she be going down reasonably well by now and sleeping properly? Every day is so bloody different I feel sick trying to work each A out, the crying and the settling which is by far the worst part of it. sick of not drinking her bottles properly from pure distraction and/or lack of hunger yet waking through the night. I'm SOOOOO tired I can't even think or type properly...
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Sweetie, I really do think there is something else at play here. I know you've taken her to the doctor but she is plainly not completely fine. TBH, even babies who are 'bad sleepers' by nature we would usually have figured out by now. I might ask some of the other mods if they can have a read and see if there's anything else to add.
I take it she's gaining weight fine and meeting milestones - that'd be what the doctor is looking at, I think. Can you perhaps video her when she's upset so you've got something to show them?
I guess it could be teething - teething can cause reflux to flare too though. She's sleeping reasonable length naps, its hard to say it would definitely be that but the insistence on more milk kind of points to acid a bit as well - that's not actually been happening that long or happening at every WU so its hard to say its a prop but its a possibility.
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If anyone else can have a look/think I'd be most grateful....
The reason I don't think it's reflux is that this night time behaviour is relatively new - she slept through each night for a week and previously it was just one wake after midnight for a bottle. In tr day, the fussy behaviour and crying so much at nap times and bedtimes is new too! She doesn't like being put down lately or if I leave the room.
Could it be:
1) Separation anxiety?
2) cold? Her room hovers around 20 degrees, plus or minus a few degrees. I dress her in a singlet suit, bonds zippy and a 2.5 tog sleep bag. She tends to kick blankets off and does want to try and roll to her tummy...should I just tuck her in tight?
3) hungry? I did stop the purée and doing only table food - more of a BLW approach. Given her milk intake is so low, is she genuinely hungry. Somehow I doubt this as surely she would smash her bottles of her meals aren't fulfilling enough?!
4) teething? I can see how this might play a part, she is chewing her fingers when she tries to settle and resettle through the night?....
5) developmental? She's trying to crawl properly (rather than commando style dragging herself)? We just finished a WW leap but things are worse.
So to top off a crap night she woke again at 5.30, crying and fussing. Woke my 3yo too. I tried to resettle, laying my hands on her after placing her on her side and she does fall quiet but easily starts again when I leave the room. By 6.30 we started our day - offered a bottle - no interest and had to push her to have 100ml. Gave her some frozen banana and a pear for breakfast. Didn't fall asleep until close to 9.30 in the car on the way home from kindy drop off (30 minute drive away). I've been sitting in the driveway and she has managed to sleep longer than ever with almost an hour sleep. Woke at 40 minutes but shut her eyes again...
I neeed to leave to pick up Harry by 2.30/2.45 so this will
Be a fun day. Any ideas on how to play it now??
Is waking after 40ish minutes and going back to sleep relatively quickly within a few minutes something to concern myself over re A time? I put Audrey down at 2hr40 A (1.10pm, asleep 1.15 after a little cry) for the second nap and she had a little chat at 2.00pm had a chat but fell back to sleep. I'll have to wake her by 2.45 if she's still asleep to have any chance of getting to kindy in time for pick up. Does that mean she needs another nap or push to 3hr15 for 6pm bed?
BT of 5.55pm and she screamed when I put her down then whinged and cried consistently for 20 minutes until 6.15. I put a blanket on her again but have a feeling she'll wake when she realizes she can't roll over...
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Just popping in to have a look....she's really giving you a hard time, isn't she? I have a 7mo and a 3yo too and that's hard, especially the days when my 7mo DD doesn't sleep well and wakes her older brother too...everyone ends up tired and grumpy!!
I have only read this page but had a summary from bec too....
I doubt she's cold in what you describe- do her hands or feet feel cold in the night?
Could be some hunger. I note it was just fruit for breakfast- are you doing any cereals for brekkie?
Are you offering plenty of high fat and some protein foods thought the day too?
Could be teething - any other signs? Could be developmental- learning to crawl threw my DS' sleep off badly. Could be some SA.
Does she self settle for naps and night sleep? Just wondering if it's an independant sleep vs AP thing? Does she self settle after night wakings or do you need to feed or otherwise help her back to sleep? Even if a baby SS at BT, if they don't SS at NWs, it can cause them to wake again after a short time unable to settle themselves.
Nap-wise..lI'm wondering if she could be UT?? (Sorry know that you've been round and round the houses with this)... But it looks like she's pushing for a longer first A time and fighting BT & with the EW. I'm wondering if she needs a 3hr30 first A time (if you count time in bed as half A time, that's when she's falling asleep, although total first A is 4hrs).
This is a bit subjective but with my 7mo I've started doing a set first nap just to give us an anchor and more predictability for the day. Do you think setting first nap at 10 would work? Keeping that first nap the same (roughly) might then help to work out the rest of the day?
It looks like she needs at least 3hrs Atime between first and second nap...and possibly more than 3hrs from end of 2nd nap to bedtime.
ETA: funny, just noticed your DD's name on your ticker...that's my DD's middle name!
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Morning!! Thank you so much for helping. I feel physically sick and extremely tired, a hard time is an understatement. I'll try and answer your questions...
Cold - yes, her hands are cold when I go to her but her chest is warm.
Hunger - yes, normally I feed her cereal but we were very rushed getting to kindy (another issue in itself). She has lots of iron and protein food but it's only finger foods - should I offer more of a lumpy mash purée as well?
Teething - other than being irritable and chewing everything, drooling and her bottom canine/eye teeth gums are quite red...same as the top 2.
Developmental - she's trying so hard but not coordinated or have enough strength in her arms.
She does SS for naps and bedtime (despite the crying). I feed quite close to bedtime but she's always put down awake. Most of her night wakings she is becoming hysterical so I have been assisting her back to sleep by placing my hands on her firmly. This sometimes works other times she just cries louder or seems asleep only for her to wake 5 minutes after I get back into bed.... I am only feeding the first night waking after midnight but I know she can go all night without as she had been previously (although not consistently). If I leave her at night she doesn't usually resettle she just becomes hysterical crying and crying until I intervene. But she never used to be like this which is so upsetting to me.
God knows with A times. I'd love to be consistent but she's so unhappy when I try and push them. I also have to do an hour round trip at both naptimes for Harry's preschool on Thirsdays and Fridays so she's getting a poo*ty car nap for the first S and then has to be woken for the second S which means BT would need to be at 5 or she needs a CN.
Last night we only had one night waking - I gave her some purée for dinner and also put her down with a blanket over her tight. She woke at 1.00 and she tried to SS for 20 minutes before I fed her and gave her some ibuprofen. She drank almost all the bottle but when I put her back to bed she cried hard for 5 minutes before falling back to sleep. Then this morning, she woke at 6.15 but in the rush of preschool drop off she had a bowl of cereal at 7am and cried the whole way there and back in the car - falling asleep at 8.45 just as we pulled into preschool and again 5 minutes from home but slept 30 minutes. I offered her a bottle straight away and she was so distracted and disinterested.
BT: 5.55; 6.15 asleep but cried.
NW: 1.05-1.25 crying
NF: 1.25-1.40
S: 1.45-6.15
OOB: 6.30
E: 7.00
A:
S: 9.20-9.50 (car)
E: 10.00. Bottle - drank less than 1/2
A:
E: 11.00. Solids.
A:
S: 12.21; 12.26-12.32-1.20
^^ crying to sleep. Whinged, cried, and moaned constantly after waking. Got her up at 1.50 to go to kindy...
E: 3.00. Gave her a bottle to feed herself in the car - bit of a disaster as she can't feed herself very well.
A:
S: 4.10; cried until 4.30 and slept 30 minutes. What do I do for BT?
Eta: she was showing all her tired signs from 6pm but we got to 7pm. Into cot at 7.10 but again she just screams the second we lay her down in it and she cried for a good ten minutes. But that's less amount of time spent crying off a much shorter A! No wonder I'm confused :( she never used to be like this. Hubby would place her in the cot and she would chat, or babble or lay quietly, and go to sleep!
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And yet she woke and cried out at 40 minutes :(
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Oh gosh, the crying sounds really distressing & not taking much milk is. Also confusing. I'm sorry, don't know what else to suggest. As Bec says, if she was previously never like this, would a trip to dr or HV be useful just to rule any medical/pain issues?
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It is dostressing, and I can't leave her to cry for long - it breaks my heart and our trust :(
So oddly last night I added blankets and put a heater on in her room. Whilst she woke during the first 20 minutes, she do dn't call out until at least 1/2am and she did that again at several times between 5 and when she woke at 6.50am. BUT she self settled like she used to! Feeling much better for just a few extra hours of sleep.
So, the crying going down to bed every sleep is that OT? I was actively keeping her awake this morning but it was a bit difficult to say the least... When we enter her room she starts crying. I put her down at 10.00 so 3hrs10 and she was asleep at 10.15 but not without the scream fest before hand....she woke at 11.35 so only 1hr 20 minute nap. What does that mean?
Terrible second nap was put down at 3hr15m A and whinged and lay awake for at least 15 minutes but only slept an hour. I'll have to pull bedtime back to 2.5hr A for 7pm :(
And yet with a shorter A she didn't cry hysterically and hasn't cried out! Do you really think I should push through with the 3+ hr A times during the day? She shows all her tired signs constantly...
NW: 3.10am; cried out loudly and then whinging and couldn't get back to sleep!
NF: 3.40am. Should we have fed her?
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Good you got extra sleep last night. Fingers crossed for tonight.
Do you think she might have variable A times throughout the day? Some babies need shorter A at start of day, some at end.
Or variable depending on how well she has slept at night or the day before?
The 2.5 before bed after a shortish (?OT) nap sounds good. Is that always the case?
The first nap sounds ok too but you could try slightly less A if you think she'd settle better closercto 3hrs 3hrs e.g. Put down before 10 to be asleep by 10
Yes it sounds like 2nd nap was OT...& she needed an earlier nap
She's a puzzle, isn't she!
Re crying on going into room...not sure whether this is OT or UT..my DD fusses on going into bedroom for both of these!
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I think she most definitely could have a variable A time in the day but goodness knows what they are. Bec and I have tried every combination with no luck. She settled SO much better on a shorter A but short sleeps. I really have no clue.
Her first sleep of 1hr20 was OT I think and of course so was the second.
Last night she woke at 3.10am whinging/cryibg but after 30 minutes she hadn't resettled so DH fed her. Unfortunately she then cried and rolled around for 15/20 minutes before falling back to sleep? Does that mean she doesn't need that feed? should I be sticking to trying to get rid of it? If so, how?
She shows so many tired signs (eye rubbing, grizzling, yawning, ear pulling, red eyelids/eyebrows, no interest in toys and hyperactivity) well before the suggested A times which makes her the most difficult puzzle ever. I've tried to just go with the flow and put her down when I think she's tired but it just made her OT from short naps.
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ok, so we actually got a proper nap today! I have no idea why or how but it happened. Now for the consistency which never comes, lol.
NW: 3.10 (as comments below - not sure I should be feeding in the night?)
S: 4.10-6.26am
WU: 6.26
Nap 1: 9.35; 9.38-11.38
^^ NO CRYING and slept 2 hours
Nap 2: 2.38; 2.43-4.06
^^ Tired signs from 1 hour awake and cried terribly at PD I had to pick up and cuddle to calm then put back down. Left the room and she still cried until she fell asleep. OT nap of 1hr20 too...
BT: 6.55; just before 7.20 asleep.
^^ Only whinging at BT so an improvement. I didn't want to make her OT and thought 3 hrs after a 1hr20 nap would be ok?
She slept until 5 where she cried out for a bit but settled for another 40 minutes but crying again at 5.44. Should have I fed her here and put back to bed? I let her grizzle until 6 where I got up and started the day. Makes it hard to be consistent because unlike yesterday she was absolutely shattered and was OT for her nap (PD at 9.44) and she was so upset and falling asleep in my arms and only slept 1hr 20m
Nap 2: falling asleep in my arms after bottle. Went to bed too to put her down. Started sucking her thumb!! Into bed at 1.00; cried and then lay quietly until 1.15 but woke crying at 1.45!!!
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I am not person to ask about night feeds...my DD is still having up to 3 a night! I need to cut them back soon but opt for the easy resettle to sleep atm.
2 days ago looks like a pretty good day with around 3hr A times all day. Yesterday looks like she had OT hangover from the longer first A that spilled into her afternoon.
Out of interest, how much day and night sleep do you think she needs? Just wondering what you feel would be right for her/what you'd like to aim for in terms of nap length and length of night?
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So when I stick to the A times to be consistent she pulls completely random naps - like today! Her night was amazing at 12.5hrs after her no sleep and long A to bed yesterday but then despite showing all her tired signs and getting very cranky slept only 40 minutes in the am, followed by an OT nap just over an hour and then I had to squeeze in a catnap in the evening and she slept for about 40 minutes until 5.25pm. BT of 8.00, only 2.5rs and yet she won't tack on in the morning... Almost better to push her through 4+ hrs until bedtime but I don't want her becoming OT.
To be honest, I don't actually mind how long she sleeps, as long as she is taking restorative naps (not catnapping) and isn't waking through the day and night OT! I obviously can't make her sleep but since my 3yo does a 6-6 routine, ideally Audrey would be in bed no later than 7/7.30 but I can't seem to make any of our days work or be consistent enough to maintain anything. I worry about her A's and how long they are given how much she protests to go down and wakes up before 1.5hrs every sleep and I can't resettle her.
I really don't think I'm asking much to have 2 x 1.5hr naps a day rather than this constant not-knowing what we're going to get days?! :(
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I wonder can you pinpoint when she's getting cranky - is it more consistently a certain amount of time from WU or a certain time by the clock? Just wondering about set naps again.
I also wonder if given she wakes at 40min, not 45, a 1:20 nap is two sleep cycles.
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Hi bec! She shows tired signs - rubs her eye constantly, droopy eyelids, red eyebrows, unhappy with toys shortly after wakeup...
I find it difficult to work out our evenings because if she does have a 1hr20 minute nap at say 1pm then BT is 5.30?!
After those 3 crappy naps yesterday she slept through until 5am where she kept crying out and then stopping but her eyes were shut! She eventually went back for a bit longer sleep but woke at 6.15. So a little over 10hr night. She's already cranky at it's only 7am
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I honestly do not think you can attribute all her crankiness to tiredness. Is she yawning? I just wonder - DS yawned a lot and he was not tired - he had fluid built up in his ears which played with his sleep but also made it difficult to hear, sometimes painful when lying down, sometimes not. It doesn't have to be infected/inflamed to be painful.
Eyes - allergies? She's pretty young for antihistamines (obviously talk to a Dr) but is it worth asking about grass or some food allergy? Itchy eyes is pretty horrid - that could be part of the variability, yk?
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Yeah she yawns, rubs her eyes and gets fussy all at the same time! I had my mother's group over yesterday and they all agreed she was exhausted.
She's really started to take to her thumb so I don't know if she's teething or finding a comfort. I'm not too keen on her sucking her thumb but probably not much I can do about it.
Yesterday she slept 2hrs in the am whilst we had a tradesman kicking tiles around on our roof and drilling, yet was woken after 40 minutes by this annoying dog barking (which seems to only bark at sleep times, lol).
NW: 4.50-5.30ish crying out sporadically
WU: 6.15
E: 7.00. Solids
A:
E: 8.45. Bottle
S: 9.15; 9.20ish-11.20ish (through horrifically loud noise)
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
A: had to take DS to the doctor
S: 2.45; 2.50- 3.30 (woken by barking dog)
A:
E: 4.00. Solids
A:
E: 5.50. Bottle
BT: 6.10. Asleep by 6.30
NW: 10.30 (crying call out)
WU: 5.30. Playing for 30 minutes before crying. Started sucking thumb and was quiet between cry-outs until 6.30.
OOB: 6.30
It's a kindy day today so will be a day of short naps and waking her up :(
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S: 9.15; 9.20ish-11.20ish (through horrifically loud noise)
DS would sleep through a riot if he knew what it was. It was sudden noises he couldn't account for that woke him. Has she met the dog? Even just over the fence to know its a dog barking?
She's getting plenty of sleep - she really shouldn't be looking exhausted all the time. That means either the quality of her sleep is not good - apnoea, discomfort (though I doubt it given she's sleeping pretty well); or there's something else going on. I know I keep saying that but I just really can't figure out how she could possibly that tired.
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I wish I knew where the dog was exactly, we've only just moved here and I can't figure out where the barking comes from but it sounds like a big old dog :( sad but it seems to know when Audrey is transitioning between sleep cycles bahaha!!
Today when she was getting cranky I tried more food instead and she perked up so I'll try that. I did 3hrs off a 30 minute nap in the car on the way to and from preschool so she could be a tad OT but hoping she has enough sleep now to push her through to BT. How long do you think her A should be to bed now? Still 3hrs? I did 2/2.5 last night and she took 20-30 minutes to fall asleep (she wasn't crying, just moaning and settling) after a 45 minute nap and woke at 5.30. She did do an 11hr night so it's more the WU time than the length that I'd like to fix!
So this afternoon she's slept 12.20-1.48. I left her as she didn't seem ready to get up and she was trying so hard to go back to sleep. Definitely the reason I don't think 1hr20min is restorative enough. I don't mind the length but how do I get her to bed at a reasonable time in regards to A, not making her OT? 3hrs is 4.45, and then 3 to bed is 9/9.30!
Well BT at 5.45pm didn't work! She flaked out quickly but woke 30 minutes later and is having difficulty resettling I'm going to have to Shush/pat her back...really don't know what to do after short naps, especially in the afternoon!
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I'd generally advise to push til you know she's OT and resettle the 30min OT nap waking and cross fingers for a longer PM nap to push the day out a bit later and get BT to a reasonable point.
Today when she was getting cranky I tried more food instead and she perked up so I'll try that.
Why didn't I think of that?!
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So, this thumb sucking business is getting extreme. It's ALLL the time now. So what was tricky trying to work out A times is now impossible because she's using her thumb to settle and pacify. Laying in bed awake for considerable time before talking....
Last night she cried out at 3am but must have sucked her thumb and the same at 5.30am. She was awake when I woke at 6.50 but no idea when she actually woke. Cried all the way to kindy and back but was sucking her thumb in the car, gave her a bottle and then put down to bed at 10.05. She woke after 30 minutes but fell back to sleep but only for 40 minutes so 1hr10/15 minutes at most all up yet she's just lying in bed sucking her thumb again so when do I get her up? How do plan next nap? It all falls right at kindy pickup time! Grrrrr
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Yesterday afternoon was a 30 minute nap from 2.45-3.15 in the car. Pushed through to 6pm bedtime and she was fine but really unsettled from 2am- morning wakeup. She kept crying out and then settling. Sometimes for 30-40 minutes but also every 5-10 minutes. Is that OT? I think she might be teething the top teeth but I can't see anything yet.
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Not a usual sign of OT - more so pain :(
Thumb sucking still going/increasing? Just another thing that points towards reflux/ears to me...
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Yeah still thumb sucking but she's never ever done it before!!
First day ever we got 2 solid naps!! Don't know whether it's the thumb or the rain white noise I put on. However, she drank very little of her bottles today and almost NONE of her bedtime bottle and has woken both after 40 minutes and 2 hours post bedtime whinging, sucking her thum and trying to settle. The all day sucking has stopped but using it as a self settling thing at the moment - before naps and when cranky in the car!
WU: 6.30ish
Nap 1: 9.30-11.00
Nap 2: 2.00-3.30
BT: 6.25; 6.30 asleep
NW: 7.20 but resettled herself
NW: 8.20. Trying to resettle but keeps waking herself after she seems to have fallen asleep!
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Those NWs soon after BT would usually be interpreted as OT - seems wrong given she's had her best day in a long time.
Maybe the thumb is just a new skill and she's been practising and now its working... wouldn't it be nice :)
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she keeps waking every 40-60 minutes Bec...is it discomfort? Hunger from drinking 20ml of her bedtime bottle?
It would be VERY nice but I don't want to get my hopes up just yet!!
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she keeps waking every 40-60 minutes Bec...is it discomfort?
I think so. Waking that frequently isn't 'just' OT/UT, yk? WRT the source, I don't know. I think if she's increasing the thumb sucking, she's finding relief which suggests swallowing helps - it equalises pressure in ears, it keeps refluxed acid down, those are two ideas but this is what Dr could be looking for. WRT ears specifically, there's some kind of device that blows a little air on the ear drum and Dr can see if is vibrates - that would show fluid/pressure in middle ear better than just looking for infection/redness, yk?
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I honestly think it's her teeth which may in turn be affecting her ears. She is drooling like absolute crazy, her top gums are quite swollen/red and she has zero interest in her milk - will suck for a brief time but then cry. This could be linked to ears too as you suggested but the other teething symptoms seem to point to that.
Regardless, she slept through until 5.50 this morning where she was crying out on and off until 7.00 and her first nap today is 1.5hrs off 3hrs awake time.
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Could well be teeth too.
Is that 3 decent naps in a row?!
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Yes it is! Except this afternoon she's been very tired and keeping her up to 3hrs A whilst not too difficult has resulted in a 30 minute nap where she's crying and can't resettle :( I've been trying to resettle in my arms for an hour with no luck... 6pm bedtime or another nap?
to be fair, she was seemingly tired before 2pm - keen to fall asleep on her bottle whilst feeding herself in the pram at 1.20!!
Drank barely any milk before bed...
BT: 5.52; asleep by 6.09 (maybe earlier, was getting DS ready for bed too).
Already woken at 6.52 crying and won't settle. Took me until 7.20 to pat and settle.
Woke 8.10pm crying louder and started coughing. Offered more milk but screamed when I left the room....asleep again at 8.30
Waking at 5.45 crying and unsettled until 7.00. Only left her because I thought she was 'trying' to be asleep. She's not waking happy so I assume she's still tired...
OOB: 7.00.
Nap 1: 9.30; 9.40-10.40
Nap 2: 1.30; 1.35-2.50
Nap 3: 5.10; i let her have a little doze for 10 minutes
BT: 6.05; closer to 6.30 asleep.
and she hasn't woken at all so far.... I really don't get it. Should I go back to 3 naps with a 2.5hr before bed? I can't work out how to make it to bedtime or even get a catnap in. She obviously needs something, even with 2 good naps she was OT at bedtime. Thumb sucking remains but helped her just lay there and rest/close her eyes at 5.
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And yet she's been awake from 1am crying and fussing for 2 hours inbetween sucking her thumb. Finally fell back to sleep at 3am but woke at 6.20, surely she could have slept a little longer?!? :(
And yet she naps the same amount of time with shorter a's and is less tired through the day.
Today was;
WU: 6.20; lay quietly until 7.00
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 9.30; 9.35-11.07
Nap 2: 1.20; 1.25-2.45, resettled until 3.12.
BT:5.50; 6.00-6.40
^^ sometime around 2.45am I heard her chatting for a little while then whinging. I don't know for how long, I fell back to sleep.
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Yesterday was;
NW: 2.45-? Babbling, not sure how long for
WU: 6.40
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 9.40; 9.45-11.07
2.5A
Nap 2: 1.40; ? - 3.25
BT: 6.20; 6.30
NW: 1.00; babbling briefly. I fell back to sleep
WU: 6.00.
OOB: 7.00; lay quietly babbling and sucking thumb.
I need to shift our day to get wakeup later if at all possible.... How do I do that?!
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Basically if you shift first nap later by 15min every few days. I know that's hard in your case - maybe just add 15min to A time and see if she shifts WU later...
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Ok so last night she slept from 7-5.50 then must have fallen back to sleep at around 7am and slept until 7.40!
Nap 1: 11.00-12.28
Nap 2: 3.20-3.40 (car, I think she fell asleep around 2.30 for 5 minutes and then couldn't get back to sleep as not as tired). Woke when I stopped; yet 3.5yo is fast asleep.
BT: ??
What should I aim for tonight for BT?
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DYT she could make it to 6:40?
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She might! I was thinking 6.30 so I think she might just have to deal with it. SO scared because the last few nights we haven't had those NW in the early part of the night!
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Evening Bec! How's your weekend going?
So, my daughter is just a weirdo with her sleep.... this was our day today. Should I be aiming for 3hrs between naps or more now? I'm SO confused.
WU: 6.40
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 9.55; 10.00 - 12.30
Nap 2: 3.30 - 5.15 (I had to wake her!!)
BT: 7:53;
She was very tired between those A's and I think she could have gone down at 3 for the second nap.
Just not sure whether I should change to set naps now we're consistently starting the day at 7am? like this morning I just kind of aimed for around 10 (3 hrs from 7, even though she woke earlier) but if she was to wake at 7 exactly, would I do 3hr20 or 3hr? Perhaps today was just a massive catch up day...I didn't have the heart to wake her though, except from this afternoon. I was wanting to wake at 4.30. I really just have no idea what kind of routine to stick to, whether to wake her, or how many hours in the day I should be aiming for...
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Evening :) Weekend has been more restful and less productive than it should be... assignment due Monday :P
Procrastinating on BW as usual...
Well, today looks like a nice day - I agree, unlikely to happen again tomorrow. I guess if you're going to do 7am OOB regularly, you could go with set naps at 10 and 3. I think that would be reasonable on an ongoing basis. I don't think you could expect a 2.5hr nap every day, knowing little Miss A. I presume she's reasonably happy to lie in bed for a while before getting up - lucky you, never flew with mine. Eyes open, everybody's up!
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Oh Bec! I don't miss assignments at all, good luck with it all. Thank you for responding :).
Today got VERY late, and as I expected she would, has taken a good 40 minutes to fall asleep (UT) now at bedtime 7.53-8.30ish). Really hoping this doesn't bring NW or EW. The laying in bed in the morning is new, as is everything she is doing since learning her thumb sucking skill....
Should I be waking from naps to conserve the day? Harry is in bed at 6/6.30 so I'd really like to conserve a 7pm bedtime if possible though might be unrealistic she needs to fit in with our current BT routines. .
* If she only naps a little over an hour at 10, do I adjust the second nap at all?
* 3.5 hours if she pulled a 1.5hr morning nap might be too long too. Was very hard to keep her happy today, cranky from 2.5hrs.
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This is the same question we keep asking with Audrey - is she upset because she's tired or just upset because she short naps if you PD when she's upset and takes a long nap if she has that age-appropriate A time.
You don't have to set naps, just a suggestion so you're giving her naps at consistent times and she can take the sleep she needs when its offered, yk? You could go with 10:15 and 2:45/3 if you wanted to push her to sleep later in the am. I would say if she sleeps past 2hr, you should be waking at 2:15 or so as she stirs at the sleep cycle transition (nicer way to wake up) to preserve your day so its not running too late and she's not going to bed so late it doesn't suit her body clock. She seems to cope much better with night sleep if she's asleep before 7:30, yeah?
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What I might do Bec, if you think it might help is fix the first nap at 10 (10.15 shortly to try and push morning if this doesn't work...) and then base the second nap on her tired signs. Even if it's shorter, we can do an EBT. might work a bit better and we can be a bit more flexible because of kindy pickup.
I still think she's going to fall asleep in the car at 9/9.30 on the drive to and from kindy...not sure how to play it those days!
7.30 at the latest is her best nights depending on the naps!
She pulled her usual 1hr 20 minute nap this morning which is frustrating... I swear that it's OT for her.
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Sounds like a good plan.
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And what should I do if she wakes early, chats/rolls/tries to settle for an hour and then falls back to sleep? Is that counted as night sleep or her first nap and do I adjust her 10am nap?
She did the same as last week this morning - woke up at 5.57am (!!) and then sucked her thumb, chatted, tried to fall back to sleep until after 7am and she is asleep now.
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If you're looking for consistent WU time, I'd got her up at 7 and do a nap at 10 but if you're just needing her to sleep, let her sleep and shift the nap.
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Hi Bec!
How are things going?
Just wondered if you had any advice; Audrey is sleeping a lot better but is very tired and falls asleep almost instantly at 10am because she has a tendency to wake earlier than the 7am I get her out of bed. She just quietly sucks her thumb so I'm not sure when she stirs/wakes.
Her 1hr20min naps Today were replaced with longer 1x2h and 1x1hr40 min nap today. Second nap ended at 4.40 with BT at 7.30 but she's just laying awake sucking her thumb now 40 minutes later. She was showing all her tired signs too so it's hard to now work if she's UT or OT.... Last night she took a while to go to sleep and then woke after 40 minutes crying so we thought she was getting back on track today with the longer naps (she was with my mum yesterday and I don't think she napped much).
The 1hr20min naps she wakes happy from but is very quickly tired and today she went down at 10am and crashed - woke at 1hr20m but then closed her eyes and sucked her thumb until 11.50 although she does this in the morning but her hands are still playing with her comforter toy!
I can't work out her A's or if she I should be waking her at a certain time to get her to bed by 7/7.30?
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I think I would say maybe don't let her sleep past 4:15 for 7/7:30 BT.
I can see by her age, she'd be reasonably likely to need one nap capped sometime soon, so might be worth doing something like restricting day sleep to 3hr (so capping nap 2 at 1hr if she naps 2hr the first nap and letting her sleep 2x1.5 if she does that). That might help with the UT at BT.
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Thanks Bec!!
I got caught up in the garden tonight and didn't wake her until 4.25! Oops. Bed at 7.15 but still awake 30 minutes later so UT again. Might have to be an hour max for that second nap now - gosh I can't believe I'm capping at 8mo!
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Its pretty common to be capping around this age.
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ok! I'll see how we get on.
I think we've got some sickness and/or teething today because she was screaming from 9am - not happy awake, not happy with me, not happy outside and certainly not happy going down to sleep. I couldn't keep her up more than 9.45 and she only slept a little over an hour but whilst she tried to resettle and fell back asleep it was only for a few minutes so I think discomfort might be on the cards today. I dosed with panadol but perhaps didn't give it enough time to kick in. I'll try and do a full 3hr A before 2nd nap but might have to play today by ear and offer a 3rd nap or EBT.
Thanks for your help again Bec :)
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Poor poppet :( FX she's feeling better soon.
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Evening Bec!! Hope you're well. How did your assessments go?
The kindy days are really messing us up. We leave at 8.30am; 30 minutes to get there, do drop off then back in the car. She's either asleep when we get there (even if she wakes at 7, so falls asleep at 8.45!) or once we leave. Can't transfer her, won't take a full nap. Same thing at 2.30 except she's usually only had a short nap so she doesn't last much longer than 2hr30/45 A so I have to wake her by 2.30
Today must have been a catch up nap from terrible naps Thurs-Saturday.
WU: ?, not quite sure..
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 9.50; 10.00-12.25
Nap 2: 3.25; ? - 4.15 at the latest. (i think 45ish minutes maybe)
BT: Shortly after 7, 7.10pm? asleep around 7.30 but keeps waking herself every few minutes!
She did the same on Saturday night except after 45minutes she started crying and wouldn't settle. I went in and rested my hand on her tummy until she was quiet and then left the room and she managed to fall asleep herself. I remember Harry starting to take longer to settle at night (20-30 minutes) around this age which is when I started bringing BT back a bit to include the wind down in bed especially as he (and Audrey too) doesn't appear to tack on to the morning.
First A is a better nap if shorter, second nap I try to get to 3 hours but it's very hard work. After such a great nap this morning she was yawning, continuous eye rubbing and every tired sign after 2.5hrs. We changed activity, we offered a bottle and played a bit more to extend her.
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Hi, exams all went ok, I think, thanks.
How many days per week do you have kindy? What's the longest the kindy-related nap goes for? She's obviously not quite ready for the short/long combination. It should be reasonably ok once she is, though.
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That's good to hear! Fx for great results :)
so she took 30 minutes of quietly laying sucking her thumb/looking around at BT tonight with the super long am nap and short pm. Of course this is not a regular thing...
Kindy days at BEST look like the below; completely blows our 10am ish set nap out of the water and she spends most of the weekend and the rest of the week getting back on track :( I have to leave at 8.30am and 2.30pm. The afternoon nap I try to pull a bit earlier so she might sleep a little longer (and she usually does which is getting confusing with the 3hr A where she wakes after 1hr20 and is still tired shortly after getting up).
WU: anytime between 6-7
Nap 1: 9/9.30 for anywhere from 20-40 minutes. This usually ends when I pull up at home and sit in the car with the radio or her white noise on...
Nap 2: 12.30/1 - 1.40-.2.20
BT: 6.00 which she's usually exhausted
If nap 2 only goes until the 1.30 end then I try and fit in a late nap at 4.30-5.00 and BT at 7.30 but that quite often backfires and she's awake for quite some time at BT either resulting in a short night or OT and I need to help her settle.
And yet, regardless of BT, first morning A time, she won't push that wakeup past 6am which is really making it hard to do a Set nap at 10 because she's so tired by then. Plus the fact she just lays in bed sucking her thumb, in reality I wouldn't have a clue when she wakes if I wasn't already awake :( So 'mostly her nights are 10.5hrs long maybe a little more but she's awake well before 7am. When we've tried later bedtime the nights are even shorter which is why I try to keep BT early so she gets the most sleep she can...
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The afternoon nap I try to pull a bit earlier so she might sleep a little longer (and she usually does which is getting confusing with the 3hr A where she wakes after 1hr20 and is still tired shortly after getting up).
Ok, so given the nap is so short, you can reasonably shorten that A time as you have done and still expect a good long nap. The 1hr20nap from which she is waking still tired - you could push that A time a smidge longer and it might help, at the moment, the nap is perhaps not quite restorative but A is perhaps not quite tired enough to keep sleeping.
Have you tried an EBT of say 5/5:30 on those kindy days? It would be entirely reasonable for her to want to get up at 5am though, so you don't have to try it but its an option and you may find she tacks if the EBT is early enough. DS never tacked if it was "just" an hour early but 2hr early, he did.
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Unfortunately now she's sick so this week is out the window - a cold but has totally thrown her! Almost asleep in my arms at 9am; have just put her down and she fell asleep in minutes at 9.15, slept until 10.33.
I'll try and nudge the 1hr20min naps but again, so unpredictable and she's beyond exhausted well before we reach the current A of 3hrs, she'll find any toy and just lay down on the ground, suck her thumb and start to fall asleep. That could be closer to 2hrs from last WU (especially in the morning).
I've been too scared to try 5/5.30 BT incase she a) thinks it's a nap and then wakes wanting 3hrs of A or b) wakes at 5am or earlier! it might be worth trying it though just to see.
Despite screaming and uncontrollably running rubbing her eyes whilst she tried to fall asleep on the lounge room floor at 1.00pm after a bottle she only slept an hour from 1.30-2.30. Would it be best to push to 6 for BT?!
Even after 3.5hr A to bed she lay sucking her thumb for over 20 minutes before falling asleep at 6.20, only to wake 40 minutes later crying. I didn't want to put her back to sleep completely so i stayed with her with my hand on her chest until she was calm. When she started playing and chatting to me I left the room and she lay there trying to get back to sleep for an hour! Finally asleep again at 8pm. With her cold she was very restless through the night, both kids difficulty breathing so she did well to sleep off and on until around 6.35, got her up at 7 and she's actually playing by herself this morning but not sure how long she's going to last.
Screamed and sobbed herself to sleep in my arms before 9am. Sick and snuffly, can't breathe properly. I tried to pop her down but I failed so she lay there for 20 minutes and dropped off again at 9.40am.
Her afternoon nap I put her down at 1.53 and she was asleep shortly after. Woke at 3.17 but she was dozing so I left her and she fell back to sleep until 4.03. Should I keep BT at 7, hoping she's asleep by 7.30?
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and yet at bedtime (7pm) she cried and I had to go in and give her some reassurance and then left the room. She fell asleep by 7.30. Really hoping she doesn't wake after 40 minutes again.
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Yes, I think a little extra reassurance is often required when LO is sick. I don't know how you do it with two who are sick at once.
The waking after 40min is usually OT but can also be illness. Even after 3.5hr A to bed she lay sucking her thumb for over 20 minutes before falling asleep at 6.20, only to wake 40 minutes later crying.
I think in this case, its probably OT.
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Yes, I think a little extra reassurance is often required when LO is sick. I don't know how you do it with two who are sick at once.
it's not very fun at the moment, that's for sure!!
I'm trying to keep an eye on the A times and her cues but with sickness she's all over the place. I'm really not good with 6am wake ups but I can't seem to get past them. When I push to 10am nap (which is 4 hours from WU) she is so tired and then come kindy days she's asleep in the car at 8.30am. It's making things really hard :(
ive been getting her OOB at 7.00 but this then means she's been awake for at least an hour so by 9am she's cranky.
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I guess you have to decide what you'd prefer - 6am to 7pm or 7am to 8pm. She's really past that age at which a 12hr night is a reasonable expectation.
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that makes sense... however, how do I do that when she isn't napping long enough to make it a 13hr day/11hr night? She had 40-60 minutes until 2.45; BT at 5.45 and she's woken crying 30 minutes later!! I can't go on like this. Her A times are shrinking and the bags under her eyes are getting darker by the day. I understand she's unwell so we're just taking things easy at the moment but she's just all over the place! it was the BIGGEST struggle to get to the nap times we did today and they weren't even 3 hours! she nuzzles her head into me and cries and cries, I change activity, she perks up but she keeps rubbing her eyes, yawning and basically acting like you'd imagine a tired baby to act so there is only so much pushing her I can do :(
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Yes, I understand that. I think these days when you're really struggling to get to a 'reasonable' BT might be the opportunity to give her a chance at a long night with an EBT.
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thanks Bec...how early are we talking?!
I did an experiment this morning and Audrey lay quietly falling back to sleep for 5 minutes every 30 or so minutes from 6am-7.30am! Didn't say a word...I kept falling asleep.
Nap 1: 10.07; 10.15-11.40
Nap 2: 2.47; 2.57-3.28 woke crying then lay there until I got her up at 4.00pm
BT: 5.50; started crying from 6.40 and won't settle. Took me until 7.35 to get her to fall asleep only for her to wake 5 minutes later. Some water and fell asleep on me, transferred to cot at 8.10pm!
Her A times have seriously dropped, I can't work her out. where previously we could make it to 3hrs and even a little more easily, it now seems like i'm torturing her.
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Could well be illness. Could be those short naps have caught up with her and you have to push again :( Horrid when she's so upset, are you sure she's better?
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no, she's not better. Congested in the nose, and very cranky. We're in the car a lot and she just wants to fall asleep so early in the morning. Woke just after 6 but fell back to sleep after 20/30 minutes to wake at 7.20am;
Tried to fall asleep at 9am (got her out and did kindy drop off)
Tried to fall asleep at 9.40 (got her out, finished off her bottle)
Nap 1: 10.05; 10.10/13 - 11.37
Upset in pram whilst out.
Nap 2: in car from 2.50; asleep 3.07-3.21 (woke when I opened my door at kindy!)
Nap 3: attempted from 4.00-4.30
BT: 5.30; asleep 5.40.
NW: 6.18. Crying
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What do I do when she just lays sucking her thumb for hours in the morning and after naps?! It's like she wants to go back to sleep but can't but without the video monitor I wouldn't have a clue she's actually awake. Not a single noise. I'm trying to keep pd at 10am regardless of wakeup (I don't actually know when that is!) and she's only napping until 11.20 or so (about 1hr10min). We were at my parents house yesterday and she only did 40 minutes after 3hr A but not sure if that was environment change or it considering she did the same short nap length in the morning. Then with BT at 6pm she cried for 20 minutes before I went in and settled with white noise and rocking her cot gently. tried to transfer to car and cot about 10pm to go home but she ended up laying in her cot for an hour before drifting off again. Woke at 6 or earlier but said nothing again until I went in just after 7am!
Then today she napped
10.10-11.20ish
3-3.30/40. She was awake at 40 minutes when I checked the monitor, but again hadn't heard her.
I couldn't get her down any earlier than just after 6.30 and she cried for about 10 minutes but then rolled around for another 20 minutes... Is she losing her ability to do this because I feel I'm helping her to sleep more often than she does it herself lately!
Poor naps and crappy BT. I know she's still not 100% but this is totally doing my head in!
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Is she losing her ability to do this because I feel I'm helping her to sleep more often than she does it herself lately!
No, you need a little longer to get to sleep when you've a stuffy nose and you're not feeling well... so does she. She doesn't have the experience to know she won't feel like that soon, she just knows she feels rotten and can't get to sleep how she normally does. Every kid needs help at some stage when they're ill - this too shall pass.
What do I do when she just lays sucking her thumb for hours in the morning and after naps?!
I don't know. To me, I'd just count it as sleep - I'm amazed such a baby exists, mine screamed (and still yells) the minute he woke up and would never stay in bed even for 5 minutes. If you didn't have the video monitor, you'd be none the wiser, right? I think sometimes tech makes things more difficult in some ways :(
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If you didn't have the video monitor, you'd be none the wiser, right? I think sometimes tech makes things more difficult in some ways
I agree, but it makes counting her A time impossible and trying to deal with a very cranky child who may have 'dozed' but didn't have a restorative nap or sleep.
So for some strange reason she slept from 7-7 last night but I stupidly put her down at the same time as usual (10am) because after constantly entertaining her and watching her cues I felt she was tired. She fell asleep in 5 minutes but then woke around the 40 minute mark. She fell completely back to sleep shortly after only to wake wide awake minutes later but she's just dozing in her cot... What do I do with her A time now and when do I get her up?
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Evening Bec!
This afternoon nap was at
However, she's started this thing at bedtime where she drinks as much of her bottle as she wants and then starts crying which continues through the rest of routine (sleeping, bag, lullaby, and tucked in) which she's not done before!! She then cries for a little while after we leave the room.
Granted we've been a little over 3hrs before into bed from last nap the last few nights but this seems odd. Do you think it's time to change up the routine and not have milk so close to going to bed and maybe in a light room (not dark as it is currently)...OR do I to maintain 3hrs before bed.
12 hr night, WU 7.05!
Nap 1: 10.00-10.40
Nap 2: 1.45; 1.55-2.17 (went down crying)
BT: 6.45; 6.50
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I have no idea what that's about, possibly OT, I guess. Is she still sleeping ok once asleep?
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it's very odd! she did it this morning with her after-breakfast bottle and rubbed her head into my chest repeatedly! She seems to sleep fine once asleep.
She slept 6.50-6.40 last night but it was a MASSIVE struggle to get her to 10am nap. Just so different each day.
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Headache? Wouldn't it be nice if they came with some sort of clear communication device!
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Perhaps, she's had some Panadol/nurofen...
Ok; so we got barely an hour. She got through 40 minutes but couldn't stay asleep. Doesn't seem like she's had enough sleep.
There should be an app where she can be translated! Lol
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It makes sense she'd do an UT nap but still, hard to know what to do when she's upset :( Nice night sleep though.
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Hmmmm, night sleep was good - almost 12 hours - but something is missing from our day!
Nap. 1: 10-11ish at home
Nap 2: tried from 2pm in pram - no sleep. Car from 3.05-3.20, woke as soon as I was in the driveway and put the car in park!!!
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but something is missing from our day!
Yeah, sleep!
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I just want to cry.... Crappy day today :( :( :(
Super Early bedtime of 5.30?
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Yeah, worth a go. FX for you.
Hugs xx
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Thanks Bec!
Asleep at 5.20 after PD at 5.15 and she woke somewhere between 6.20 and 6.50, I fell back to sleep!
Should i nudge out the first nap from 10am or leave it as it is incase this is some crazy phase/sick etc?
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Maybe try nudging it - no better time than after a 13hr night ;)
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PD at 10.30, stirred at 11.00 but resettled then awake again from 11.14, settled and woke at 11.40 so maybe 1hr10 if I'm lucky? She keeps trying to get back to sleep (sucking thumb, closing eyes, rolling) but she can't. Perhaps I pushed her too far but she didn't go down crying like usual! Bloody hell, can't catch a break can I?
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How was the rest of the day?
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I wasn't sure what to do so I did a nap at 2.30pm so bit uncertain as to the A. She cried going down briefly but fell asleep by about 2.35 - 4.05. Aimed for BT at 7.00 but she went back to drinking the majority of her bottle and then started crying again and was keen to get down and read books/play etc but was crying and rubbing her eyes when I put her down just before 7.00pm...
I'm REALLY confused. And it's kindy the next few days so we'll be back to super early, short naps in the car around 9/9.30 which will stuff everything up again. booooo
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She's a right puzzle! Hopefully kindy days aren't too bad for you this week.
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9.30-10.00 is all we got in the car.
I put her in bed and she lay awake from 10-10.40 before I conceded.
Nap 2: 12.30 - 1.50, then fell back to sleep until 2.10
Is 5pm too early for bedtime, 5.30 too late, 6?
If she's falling asleep so early in the car for naps, perhaps at home I should be doing the same?
ETA: BT: 5.30; asleep 5.35ish woke after 40 minutes crying but was able to resettle thank goodness fingers crossed she sleeps through...
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Well that was a FAIL. Awake from 2.30. Finally got her back to sleep for 40 minutes in my bed at 5 and now up for the day.
Nap 1: 10.00-11.30
Nap 2: 3.00-3.20 (car)
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Well that was a FAIL. Awake from 2.30. Finally got her back to sleep for 40 minutes in my bed at 5 and now up for the day.
Oh Blah :( That's a pain. I was hoping EBT would be a turn out to be a good backstop. How was she when she woke? That can be chronic OT waking - that 9hr into the night and struggling to resettle.
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I thought so too - it worked the first time but not the other night! Well, she woke and was whingy and restless but after about 30 odd minutes of that and not being able to soothe herself even with her thumb she started crying. We listened to her for a little while and then hubby tried to resettle for quite some time and she did fall back asleep but woke shortly after he left the room. I tried, then offered some water and a cuddle and she fell back asleep in my arms so I went and lay down in my bed. Co-sleeping has never worked with either of my kids, they' rather crawl around and kick and scratch and anything but sleep ???
The last two nights she's woken after 30/40 minutes crying but at least has been able to resettle! then you've got a day like today which was:
WU: ? Awake at 6.20 when I checked the monitor
OOB: 6.30
Nap 1: 9.50; asleep shortly after - 11.10
Nap 2: 2.30ish - 3.30 so less than an hour
BT: 6.30. Went down crying (same as usual) and didn't fall asleep until closer to 7.00pm but at least didn't wake crying early on.
Man she's hard work! I totally can't crack her or even know what I should be doing with her!
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-sleeping has never worked with either of my kids, they' rather crawl around and kick and scratch and anything but sleep
Mine too. At least that's one habit I can't get into... Ah, he does now, at 5yo, but only in the last few months.
You know, 2 x ~1hr naps worked for us for a while with L. I changed again to make sure we had a long nap for when we went to one nap.
Your days are still pretty variable but she is getting some sleep now
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Yes, you're right, she is getting some sleep just have to be careful of too many short naps but with kindy it's just so hard. Hopefully things will improve when we move to one nap just I hope she doesn't continue with the super early car naps!!
Today I have NO idea when she woke but awake when I woke at 6.20. Stayed in bed until 7.00 but was SO much happier when awake so I just kept her up and pushed a little bit until 10.10. She fell asleep really quickly and no fussing at all and slept 2 hours!! Is that because her A was nearly 4 hours or massive catch up? Grrrr, I couldn't replicate that nap if I stuck to 10.10am nap tomorrow if I tried. Makes it easier to push nap if she's happy to crawl around, play and have cuddles, rather than whinge and cry constantly!
I stuck to 3hrs second A but she started bawling as soon as I entered the room! Added a book and a cuddle to wind down and she settled quickly shortly after PD at 3.12pm. will try and conserve the day and cap at 4.15 with a BT of 7.00 or later perhaps?
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I stuck to 3hrs second A but she started bawling as soon as I entered the room!
UT, do you think?
You may end up having one long nap and one short pretty consistently soon. If you were to do short AM/long PM with the short AM nap in the car on kindy days, that could maybe work?
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Quote from: labrodyk on Today at 06:25:12
I stuck to 3hrs second A but she started bawling as soon as I entered the room!
UT, do you think?
I thought so too but she stirred and wriggled from 30 minutes so I assumed OT, but then woke fully after 40.
BT was just after 7 but she took until 7.30 to fall asleep. Fx she stays asleep.
Your suggestion of short am/long pm sounds perfect but I've never been able to get it right - even when I do it on kindy days! Second nap is only ever those 1hr20 or less which don't seem restorative and and then a really long A to bed which never seems to have been her thing. Her best nap has always been am. What would your suggestion be time wise for both long am/short pm vs short am/long on and how could I incorporate into car naps as early as 9/9.30 if needed do you think
Thank you so much for continually helping me, you're so amazing. Maybe I should just delete this thread cause it's a little embarrassing after 25 pages :(
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Well, if you're getting something like this:
6:30-7 - WU
9/9:30 - 30-40min nap
1/1:30 - nap (I think you have to push the A time here even after the short nap or you won't get enough long A time into the day for her to be tired enough to sleep well in the early hours of the morning)
6:30/7 - BT depending upon WU from nap.
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Problem being that two days a week I'd have to wake her from the arvo nap at 2.30 to do kindy pick up :(
This morning wasn't very good...
WU: 6.25 or earlier
Nap 1: 10.04: 10.07-10.43. 10.45ish-11.23. Then dozed and fell back asleep but woke at 11.30!
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Ugh :( That kindy pickup time really does throw another spanner in the works.
I cannot imagine she'd transfer well from one spot to another - like if you picked her up asleep and put her in the car - dyt she'd keep sleeping on the way to kindy?
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dyt she'd keep sleeping on the way to kindy?
That's my current problem, she doesn't sleep long enough in the car (maybe 20 minutes at best) let alone transferred outside. If I just undo my seat belt or open my door with the car still running she wakes.
Second nap: 2.35, asleep 2.45-4.17 I had to wake her.
BT: 7.00. Went down crying and couldn't settle. I went in and gave her a little cuddle and put back down but took her another 20 minutes - until just after 8pm to finally fall asleep!
What did I do wrong?! She was really upset, not UT upset either.
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Separation anxiety? Super little thing that often pops up around 9 months... Separation Anxiety
That's my current problem, she doesn't sleep long enough in the car (maybe 20 minutes at best) let alone transferred outside. If I just undo my seat belt or open my door with the car still running she wakes.
I was thinking nap in bed then transfer to car - would that be different, with the movement?
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Grrrr, that could have been it but she woke at 10.30pm crying and stirring from 6am, completely awake from 6.20am! If I get her OOB at 7 with Harry, it's proving very difficult to make it to 10.10 nap!
Oh I've tried to transfer before but once I lift her or carry outside she's awake. If she doesn't then the sound of the car doors, the change in light, lifting and clicking into car seat and buckling her in wakes her. I've always wanted a transferable child, would make things so much easier.
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I trained L to transfer with shush/pat variation while I carried him... still works at 5 but he was much like A when he was younger.
You might find a 12hr night is not a reasonable expectation until she drops another nap, yk?
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I don't think my children are trainable! I have NO idea how today went well but it did. Do you think I need to adjust bedtime or just let her be if she's not upset?! Fx tomorrow is similar but you never know with A!
WU: 6.25
Nap 1: 9.50; 10.00-12.00. No crying going down at all.
Nap 2: 3.00; 3.10 - 4.00. No crying at all either. I was going to wake at 4.15 but she was about to fall back to sleep after waking at 40mins so thought it was a better time to get her up!)
BT: 7.00. Read books after milk tonight just to break up bottle and bed, asleep 7.30 after laying quietly.
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Yep, a good day. Hope today is similar for you! I think if she's happy to lie in bed and will fall asleep on her own, don't worry about it taking a little while for her to fall asleep.
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Thanks Bec! Gosh things are hit and miss and I get really confused with the naps. I think I might need to set BT at 7pm with a nap cut off at 4/4.15. Last night she did great. Tonight not as good and whilst I did 3hr A she cried and had great difficulty settling and I needed to intervene!
What are your thoughts?
WU: 6.30
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.30 breakfast
A:
E: 9.00 bottle
A:
S: 9.50; 10.00-11.13; dozed until 11.28 when truly awake.
^ grizzly and upset going down
E: 12.30 lunch
A:
E: 2.00 bottle
A:
S: 2.25; 2.35-4.15
BT: 7.15; 8.00
^^ quite upset before bed, particularly rubbing eyes. Crying out and trying to settle after PD.
I wonder if I should have pulled back a little and done 7pm?
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I think I might need to set BT at 7pm with a nap cut off at 4/4.15.
This seems pretty reasonable.
S: 9.50; 10.00-11.13; dozed until 11.28 when truly awake. ^ grizzly and upset going down
A wee bit UT, dyt? Not by much, though.
She seems to do better at BT if she's had one long (~2hr) nap in the day, would you agree?
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She seems to do better at BT if she's had one long (~2hr) nap in the day, would you agree?
Yes, most definitely! But I can't seem to get that consistently! I wanted to do the set nap but how long she sleeps I completely dependent on her night length so I still don't get any real consistency!
She's been awake for the day from 6am trying to get back to sleep but awake fully from 6.30, so 10/10.5hr night at most :(
The whinging and crying most of the morning is getting really draining too! She's frustrated and not interested in her toys. Can't walk, doesn't want to crawl, not steady or strong enough to stand up. Then I try to put her down and she's exhausted, eyes closing in my arms and then crying all wind down and when I left the room. Only briefly because she was asleep in a couple of minutes!!
WU: 6-6.30
E: 7.30 breakfast.
A:
E: 8.40 bottle. Not really interested
A: super fussy, tired, clingy and crying
S: 9.59; 10.03 fast asleep - 11.20, stirred and fell back to sleep several times. Her eyes are half closed and she waves her comforter around whilst she sucks her thumb. She drops the thumb and her other hand and then jolts and sucks again! Awake completely at 11.48 so I got her up.
E: 12.30; lunch
A:
E: 2.00 bottle. again, not that keen
A: super fussy, tired, clingy and crying
S: completely crashed in my bed whilst I was putting washing away at 2.45-4.03
A:
E: 5.15 dinner
A:
E: 6.50 bottle
BT: 7.10; 7.30
^^ whinging/crying going down
aiming for 7pm bedtime, hoping she's asleep by 7.45!
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Oh Bec, absolutely horrific night!!!
Asleep at 7.30 but woke crying at 9.30. Resettled herself then woke every 40 minutes from 10-3! She was awake babbling at some points but mainly just couldn't sleep. I sat with her after 3am until close to 4am and she went back to sleep but cried out again at 5 and then awake from 6am but fell back to sleep at 7.30....for 5 minutes!
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:'( That's horrible :(
Ill? That'd be my first thought based on the irritability during the day and the wakings at night.
Hugs all 'round xx
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Went to the doctor and ears and throat okay but pulling ears so think teething!!
Yesterday was;
Nap 1: 9.45-11.05 then dozed until 11.40
Nap2: out at a friends. Pd in her bed at 2.35 when she wouldnt stop crying! Only 30 minutes.
Bt: 6.30; crying. Did wi/wo and patted her and not asleep until after 7.30
Nw: 4.50am. Babbling ans crying until 6.30am
S: 6.30-7.20am
Nap 1: 10.00 in car cried until 11.08-12.15 in the car. Had to wake her. No idea how she slept so long.
Nap 2: 2.30 in car. Asleep 3.35-4.05
No idea what do do for bedtime given last night!!! Im in the car for another hour until ar least 5.30! Not much time for dinner and bed routine!!
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Nw: 4.50am. Babbling ans crying until 6.30am
Is this a waking around that time of morning that's getting worse or a one-off? If the former, you might consider pushing that first A time a bit more.
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Is this a waking around that time of morning that's getting worse or a one-off?
I'm not sure to be honest. I just happened to be awake but I haven't heard her that early before. If I was to push A, I don't even know what I'm doing for A's anymore so not sure where I'd start...
Trying to aim for 6 or shortly after tonight... Really hoping she can SS, feels like ages since she has.
.... No such luck!! Down at 6.10 and has cried and won't settle since!! What am I meant to do with her A after such a short evening A. It's all over the place. She finally fell asleep just after 7.00!
Our morning continued with no tire signs and no grouchy/crankiness but as the morning wore on I had no idea how to structure the day if nap 1 was any later so I PD.
WU: ?
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 10.35; asleep shortly after. Stirred at 11.09, fell back to sleep until 11.35. Lay quietly with eyes shut sucking thumb but playing with comforter tag and trying to drop off to sleep again. Eyes wide awake at 12.00
Nap 2: 3.15-4.30 (I woke her)
BT: changed our bedtime routine and did milk and quiet play in lounge then brushed teeth and into bed, didn't fuss or cry and asleep within 20 minutes!
I really don't understand. Am I getting all these A's totally wrong? At least she didn't cry going to sleep for this first nap today but if she napped any later, how do I get her down again in the afternoon? Surely this isn't the 2-1?
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BT: changed our bedtime routine and did milk and quiet play in lounge then brushed teeth and into bed, didn't fuss or cry and asleep within 20 minutes!
Prefers a shorter 'wind down' maybe? That or you held your tongue right :P
Surely this isn't the 2-1?
Depends what you call the 2-1... its a transition and whilst she wouldn't cope with one nap at the moment, it is part of the transition from 2 full naps to 1 nap.
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Haha, you're probably right. BT not as easy tonight but today she has been SO miserable! I managed to push her through to almost 10am this morning and she pulled a 2hr nap but again cranky all of her next A so down a touch early and slept 1hr20.
WU:?
Nap 1: 9.50; 9.55-11.55
Nap 2: 2.50; 3.00-4.20
BT: 7.35; asleep 8.05. Cried out briefly 5-10mins after PD.
I'm really starting to think her 1hr20 naps are the equivalent of other bubs' 1.5hrs. Perhaps BT should have been later. I feel like her A's are really short but then she was in such a better mood this afternoon after two decent naps than the morning!
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I'm really starting to think her 1hr20 naps are the equivalent of other bubs' 1.5hrs.
You could well be right there, she does them pretty consistently and bag on 2hr naps would then be 3 sleep cycles. L always used to wake at 1.5hr or 2:15 if he did long naps, so not unreasonable to think 1:20 and 2hr are her long naps.
Is there any pattern to these long naps happening? Dodgy night before them or anything? Just wondering if she's in a bit of a loop but its longer and we can't see it.
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Yes, with the exact 2hr nap that's what made me think of it...
No, i can't find any pattern at all!! She just randomly pulls them. Then surprisingly she slept from 8pm (7.30pd) to 7.30am this morning! She was going to fall asleep again so I got her up. Our nights have been relatively short and she's been super grumpy through the day but I put that down to pushing that first A later than 3ish hrs because a couple of days she can handle it but then seems to fall apart and she'll have a meltdown and not be happy after those 1hr20 naps. Night sleep then seems to get shorter and shorter.
WU: 7.30 (woke her)
Nap 1: 10.50-12.30 (was a little unsettled at 40 minutes)
Nap 2: 3.25 into car. Didn't fall asleep until close to 4pm and that was with me driving around (and around and around), woke after 20 minutes once I stopped the car.
^^ Typical that my 4yo slept the entire drive and will now be up until 10pm!
BT: ?? Absolutely no idea. Is 7pm too late off a 20 minute nap?
^^ did wi/wo for an HOUR before she finally fell asleep at 8pm!
WU: 7.10.
Nap 1: 9.37;
Something must be wrong because again she hasn't stopped screaming all morning and just closed her eyes and collapsed in my arms at almost 9.30. I PD in bed and she was asleep in just a few minutes. She's a little snotty with a cold and i think teeth are bothering her but it's not just a little OT where I can distract, does that make sense? She's crawling all over me and crying, won't let me put her down, nuzzling into me and just all around miserable. I went to go for a walk but she screamed blue murder going into the pram so I just gave up and came back inside!
How can i EVER maintain a decent A? Unless she was awake in the early hours and then only fell asleep for 10 minutes just as I woke and checked? I don't know.
Sorry to keep posting, I just don't know who else to talk to about this :(
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Its ok, happy to be a shoulder to cry on given I'm not much help routine-wise. I really am out of ideas - she's obviously either significantly affected by illness or something, yk? She could have been awake for a while in the night but how would you know? Its unrealistic to expect you'd know that.
I'm guessing when she goes to the doc, she's a perfect angel and they can't believe you're having any issues? Would it be worth keeping a food diary for her to see if there are any patterns there - she might be having gut issues with a food?
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Thank you, I will start doing that. Could be food.
WU: 7.10
Nap 1: 9.40-11.25
Nap 2: 2.45-3.45ish
BT: 6.55; 7.10
NW: 4.50 crying. can't resettle her. Patted, held her in chair, co-sleep and still crying. She's very congested and her teeth are bulging but not cutting.
She fell back to sleep at 6.40, when should I wake her? It's 7.48 now.
I have NO idea what's going on but I have a super important appointment this morning and didn't need a cranky baby and an early wake up!!! Far out....
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She's very congested and her teeth are bulging but not cutting.
I think all bets are off when teething and sick at the same time, poor poppet.
Best wishes for your important meeting! Do you have to take A with you? If so, I'd let her sleep as long as possible, give pain meds and cross fingers she's happy, otherwise I'd probably wake her and try to stick to normal day as far as possible.
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Hi Bec!! How are you??
A is still sick with runny nose (it's been over 3 weeks!) and her teeth are there but not cutting at all. Our afternoon nap has also been 40 minutes the past 2 days but she is SO miserable before it that I've put her down at the 3hr A mark? Is that too short/too long? How much should I shave off bedtime after 40 minutes? Should it be 2.5 A or 3? With a longer nap I've been doing up to 3.5hrs but I'm so confused at present. I'm also not sure if the short arvo naps are from teeth too but I've been giving meds. She has been trying hard and falling back to sleep every few minutes today, so I wasn't sure!
Last Saturday my parents minded her and she was so unsettled, dad had to pay her to sleep then when we got home around midnight she'd been crying with mum trying to settle for 1/2 an hour! Took a dose of nurofen and holding her in my arms until asleep for her to settle again! The next morning nap she did 4x40 minute sleep cycles for a nap of 2hrs40min!
Sunday
WU: ?
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 9.55; 10.00-12.40 (4x40min sleep cycles).
Nap: 4.00; 4.10-4.50
BT: 7.35; asleep 7.50 (no crying!).
Monday
WU: ?
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 10.0; 10.05-11.40
Nap: 2.50; 2.55-3.28
BT: 6.17; crying! Asleep 6.36
Tuesday
WU: 7.00
Nap 1: 10.03; 10.08 - 11.28
Nap 2: 2.30; 2.40 - 3.16, back to sleep until 3.38 then quite unsettled (asleep, awake, asleep, awake) until 3.50 chatting!
BT: ?? What should I do?
I did 6.30 and she's been crying for 25 minutes!! I've gone in and calmed her but she cries when I leave. Do I need to scale back dramatically after a short afternoon? 2.5hrs PD? These nights where she goes down crying and can't settle are horrible!
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I'm well, life is running along at its usual crazy pace again :P
dad had to pay her to sleep
Wow, she's starting in business young!
These nights where she goes down crying and can't settle are horrible!
I still remember the misery :( They are horrible.
Ok, so I wonder if we make a framework for day length around the amount of sleep she gets in a day. She seems to like about 2:20-3hr day sleep and 11hr+ over night, yes? I think you're shortening the last A time a touch too much - she was upset but went to sleep reasonably quickly on Monday with 3hr A off a short nap. Today, you've done a 2.5hr A time off a 1:10 nap, albeit a bit broken. BT could well have been 7/7:30 tonight, I think.
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I'm well, life is running along at its usual crazy pace again
Oh I know the feeling!!
Wow, she's starting in business young!
LOL! I know you know I meant 'pat' but gosh i wish I could pay her!
Framework for the day - yes that sounds about right but I REALLY struggle with the last A! Saturday was a short 40 minutes and when my dad put her down at 7.30/45 she did the same thing she's done for me tonight, screamed!
She's only just fallen asleep herself now at 7.15pm. I was basing her A from when she first woke at around 3.30 so thought 3hrs A would be heaps!
It's so confusing also because then there's nights like Sunday night above and I woke her at 4.50 and she was back in bed without a peep at 7.35pm (only 2hr 45 A) and that was a day with that massive 2hr40min morning nap.
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Today we only got 2x30 minute car naps! What should I do now for BT?
WU: 6.00
Nap 1: 9.50; 10.10-10.38
Nap 2: 1.40; 2.22-2.58. Popped back into her cot at 3.10 when we got home and she played until 4!
BT: 6.03; asleep 6.23. Very tired but didn't cry!
I just can't work out these A times anymore. Lol
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That's bizarre. How was she during the day?
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That's bizarre. How was she during the day?
totally frustrating too!
She was her usual self when out and about - smiling at everyone, looking around with her massive eyes. Although gets fussy in pram, shopping trolley and high chair and wants to be held. Same with in and out of car seat - has a good scream before either sitting there and chatting well past her normal A or continuing to cry until she falls asleep.
With H back at preschool today we were back into the nightmare that is drop off/ pick up. Our today played out like this;
WU: 6.00 ish. Lay quietly but got upset and whinged until closer to 7.
OOB: 7.00am.
Nap 1: absolutely beside herself, crying in the car from 8.50. She was falling asleep as we arrived at kindy but then she was all smiles, crawling around playing with all the kids. Hopped back in the car and she cried but chatted and she fell asleep but only for 3 minutes at 9.45!!
Nap 2: 10.10; 10.15-11.25 (in cot)
Nap 3: 2.28; 2.34-3.30
BT: 6.25; crying off and on and won't settle. Finally asleep at 6.50.
This is really hard, should I try a different routine or longer/shorter A's? Hard with kindy drop off/pick up but at least the rest of the days might be better.
We've been doing a BT routine of;
Dinner, a bath/shower, bottle in the lounge room and then she insists on crawling and cruising around. After around 10-20 minutes we go and brush teeth, into sleeping bag, a cuddle and some lullabys and into bed. She either;
A) cries and continues to cry and need settling
B) is quiet but then can't settle and starts crying (not just mantra)
C) mantra cries briefly then falls asleep
D) quietly self settles.
Naps and bedtime she will always cry as soon as we enter her room but once she gets given her comforter whilst putting on sleeping bag and she'll start to suck her thumb but totally hit and miss on how long or if she settles!
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And then there was today?!
WU: 6ish
OOB: 7.00
Nap 1: 9.30-10.00 in the car post bottle which she fed herself
Nap 2: 12.55; 1.00-2.30 in cot. No crying, self settled.
BT: 6.23. A few mantra cry outs but asleep 6.43.
I decided that if she can handle 3 hours after 30 minutes she could handle a lot more after a decent nap but I don't think that transcends to her morning, I feel like she's becoming a short morning a, long a to bed. Previously I've thought this the other way around but who knows!!
Saturday 23/7
WU: ? chatting 6.37
OOB: 7.15 (I fell back to sleep!)
Nap 1: 10.03; 10.08-11.25
Nap 2: 3.03; 3.13
^ we were in the car prior to this and I thought she'd fall asleep but no such luck.
BT: ?
I'm just wondering if there is some kind of 'plan' I could attempt at sticking to in regards to nap length and A time between naps and bedtime? What your thoughts were on waking her from afternoon nap and if so, what A should I be aiming for? I'm starting to think that if second nap isn't starting until closer to 3, even if I give her 40 minutes she needs 3hrs to bed PD but anymore and we're looking at close to 4 which would bring us up to an 8pm bedtime which i'm not that keen on but could try and make it work if necessary except H is usually passed out asleep by 6.30/7pm at the latest!
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I'm starting to think that if second nap isn't starting until closer to 3, even if I give her 40 minutes she needs 3hrs to bed
So cap the PM nap shorter and keep to ~3hr to bed PD.
I think I'd shoot for a long AM nap and short (cap to 30min, say) PM but be prepared for sometimes a short AM and allow for a long PM.
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thanks Bec...
I'm trying really hard to get the long am and short pm but she is absolutely MISERABLE through her first A. Even if we're out, cries constantly, wants to be held and doesn't fight me at all for nap PD but is sleeping only a little over an hour. I then feel terrible about waking from second nap but don't know what A before PD I should do if I do let her sleep. Yesterday's 2nd nap was short and A to bed was almost 3.5hrs, she tossed and whinged for over 30 minutes!
Her top teeth are cutting so I'm medicating and cuddling and offering what I can during A's and before sleep. Developmentally she's doing really well but we've run into the 'screaming and rolling/crawling/sitting during nappy changes and dressing' stage. She's crawling, pulling up, cruising but not happy to play with toys or her brother. She'll come crying/crawling to me and I'll lift her up, only for her to thrash and rub her eyes and get upset and want to get down. Wash, rinse, repeat. lol.
To be honest, I don't really know what A I should be aiming for based on nap length for any of our day?
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She's at an age that's so variable its hard to know, yk? Average is such a big range. I'd just say not less than 3hr, so that's not a lot of help, sorry. Is there the possibility of a set BT if you're capping the second nap?
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Yep, I totally understand, I remember this stage (not so fondly) with H!
Set nap is a possibility, I guess it's just hard knowing whether the A is too long or too short given the rest of our days are so over the place. One night might be 3hrs; the next more. I'd love a set 7pm bed. I'm just getting anxiety each night at bedtime of what way she's going to go! Today has been hit and miss and our bedtimes are incredibly variable. not asleep until 8pm last night and awake from 6.30ish with short naps today yet miserable her whole A times. Pain meds, cuddling, changing activities, snacks, food, milk, she just wanted to be held and then cried to be put down. Totally fickle. Not at all upset on PD for naps, fell asleep quickly each time. I don't mind rolling with the day as it comes but I find it really difficult judging her A's after short naps, after long naps, and how to do bedtime whether it's a long/short nap.
WU: 6.40ish
OOB: 7.00am
Nap 1: 9.35; 9.40-10.48
Nap 2: 1.55; 2.00 - 2.40. 2.45-2.48!
BT: we PD at 6 and she's crying. Too late?
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I wouldn't have thought too late.
I see you have a new thread on naps. Happy to keep holding your hand here but don't want to get you confused, so happy also to drop this thread if you desire. I'm stepping down from modding in a couple of days and won't be around quite as much.
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I didn't think so either, the cried for 20 minutes and I went in and patted the mattress for 20 minutes and she fell asleep. No idea what that's about, poor thing is all ovet the place.
Thank you so much for helping me, you've been absolutely amazing. Let's put this post to bed, I don't want to take up any more of your valuable time.
Thank you again and good luck with your study.
xx
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Thanks xx I'm sure things will improve as Miss A gets older :)