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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Eva's Mummy on January 15, 2016, 13:59:53 pm
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How do you enforce the gro clock. DD1 3 years and 5 months has been using it for quite a while always kind of hit or miss. Mostly she did really well and was so excited to wait for Mr Sun. Recently she has been calling for me around 6:00 today 5:30 (Mr sun is set at 6:45), I go in tell her its still night time to go back to sleep until mr sun comes up but she just cries and sobs her wee heart out, I want you mummy, I want some milk and wont stop crying until I get her out of bed.
What do you do when they are getting upset like that?
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When mine were going through that I stayed in the room to reassure them but didn't turn the light on or get them out of bed. When it was time to get up I would make a big thing about how the light was on and it was morning.
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Is it very recent, I mean just a few days or a week? Maybe a growth spurt? Mine doesn't get up before his timer lights but during a growth spurt he is incomprehensibly hungry in the morning. Could it be that she is coming into light sleep and just feeling hungry so is fully waking instead of going back to sleep? I would think you'd know it was a GS based on how much she's eating the rest of the day.
Could also be the approach to the half birthday and just the general sleep disturbance which comes with that?
A slight drop in sleep needs? Mine didn't drop his sleep needs until more like 4.5 and I moved his morning lights to 20 mins earlier 5 days per week, plus a story at BT meaning an extra 5-10 min off the night sleep there (so total reduction about 30 min) but when I posted about it I got the impression that many get a drop in sleep needs a bit earlier than my DS.
The lights or gro-clock are great for them to know when they must try to sleep and stay quiet and when they are allowed up but I think they do need to also work with their sleep needs and developments. If you suspect a drop in sleep needs maybe move BT 15-30 min later or add some additional physical activity to the evenings to get her more tired?
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To be honest I don't think she is ready to drop her sleep needs. She still naps quite happily from 1:15 - 3:00 (I wake her) then BT at 7:30 4 days a week. Since August she started pm sessions at nursery but I only let her go the 3 days she is at the childminder as it means she doesn't get a nap at all that day in which case she is like a total burst couch and is in bed at 6:30.
I think it is just stubberness. It could well be 1/2 birthday I always forget about that. She has been so clingy recently and cries for mummy, wont even go visit her aunt with daddy now, she wants to stay with me all the time.
Could be due to the fact dd2 was taken into hospital on 31st dec and I had to stay with her over night and didn't come home .
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I wonder if she needs that nap shortened now? Perhaps it's stealing from her night sleep?
Do you think it's hunger or thirst driving her desire for milk? We've let DS have a cup/bottle of water by his bed, certainly from 3.5yo, if not before, so if he's thirsty in the night he can just sip that. He won't drink so much that he needs the loo, as he just won't drink water at other times ::) but he'll drink it when he's really thirsty. If you think it's more hunger, could you move dinner a little later or give her a little BT snack?
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My girl never eats. That's a whole other thread. But during the day she always says so so thirsty mummy. (Who knows). She drinks gallons. I'll try leaving water in her bed. She is still in a cot bed with the sides up says it's cosy and gets upset if I say we are taking the bars away.
Maybe I should try capping the nap it's just easy for me cos dd1 (at 16 months) still wakes twice during the night so that's my time to catch up but that will be ending soon once dd2 is on 1 nap anyway.
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How about shaving 15mins off the nap and see what difference it makes? You could even bring BT forward 15mins initially if you think she'll be extra tired, you'd be keeping the same A after the slightly shorter nap that way so it may make her tired enough to sleep a little longer at night - or just leave BT where it is and see how she does.
Have you been leaving her water at night? Any improvement?
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The water is making no difference . Think I do need to start shaving the nap a bit. So you find it better cutting the 15 mins from the start or end if the nap? Xx
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We capped it at the end when nights got shorter (trouble settling at BT and/or EW) and pushed it later when he either struggled to settle for the nap or the naps got shorter than he needed - if that makes sense? From what you've said, I'd try shortening it by 15mins and probably keep BT the same, but be ready to put her down a little bit earlier if necessary - I can't honestly remember but I don't think at 3.5yo you need to be quite so worried about OT with the nap shortened by 15mins, others would probably suggest a bigger change but I like to start small and see what happens.
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It does make sense. I don't think she will get ot cos she's just about copes on her 3 no nap nursery days. Thoroughly shattered and bad behaved but out for the count at 18:30. I'm guessing you would keep BT at that time on those days?
Yes I am very much like you and like little steps at a time. We'll start tomorrow and see what happens. Thank you honey xx
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Oh I forgot about the nursery days... Yes I think I'd probably do the same as you, but can't remember if you said how the nights were after those days?
Ok little steps then - that way hopefully not too much damage if it all goes wrong...but I hope it's a step in the right direction instead :-*
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Nursery days she's out like a light then up around 6. But quite tired the next day xx
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Ok so she does 11.5h straight? Probably about the best you can expect, I would think... I think I'd expect a shorter night if BT was too late, but it sounds like you wouldn't want to make it any later, so keep it there I think. Of course someone else may disagree and I'd differ - all seems a long time ago with DS now! Oh but just to clarify, I think keep 7:30pm BT for the 1.5h nap days, sorry I realised I wasn't sure if that was what you meant before. Oh and I don't think I asked before, which are her no nap days? Just wondered if they were consecutive or not?
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Yeah I don't think I could expect more than 11.5 hours those days . Her no nap days are Mon, wed, thu in a Friday wu tends to be nearer 5:30 after 2 no nap days in a row. Just to add to it dd2 naps rotten there and has recently only been napping for 35-45 mins all day so had at least 3 nw's on those days too
.
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Ooh that's hard :-\ I'm afraid I didn't quite understand it all - so she goes to nursery Mon, Wed and Thu so can't nap those days, and goes to a childminder Tue and Fri where she short naps, then she catches up at home during the weekend?
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No sorry honey on a Mon wed, thu she goes to the childminder in the morning then has her nursery session in the afternoon so no nap. Then she catches up the days she's at home which are a tue, Fri , Sat, sun xx
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Oh yes sorry that's what I thought at first - it was your comment about DD2 that confused me as I thought you were talking about DD1 - sorry! How's it going?
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5am :o told her it was still night time she had to go back to sleep. This basically went an every 10mins until 6 when I put her twinkle lights on and gave her some books and that bought me 20 mins.
This morning she said she was crying cos she is scared of the dark. She's never said this before, and when she goes to sleep she doesn't want me leaving any lights on. So not sure if its just another excuse.
So today was a CM/nursery day. Its been 5:00 - 18:40 she shattered but we will see what the morning brings. I guess this will take a while to fix.
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Oh dear that sounds tiring :-\ Keep posting what happens and perhaps that will help us both to see patterns... What time did she go to bed the night before waking at 5am?
That's interesting that she mentioned being afraid of the dark, perhaps that's something to discuss with her during the daytime? Doesn't the gro clock give out a fair amount of light? It would be interesting if you could get a bit more out of her as to what she's worried about. It's quite common at this age I think - certainly my DS, who always needed pitch black to sleep, decided around this age that he needed a night light , which is partly why we bought our gro clock, actually!
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The morning she woke at 5 she went to bed at 19:40. Yesterday was a nnd so it was 5:00 - 18:40 and wu was 5:55.
That's actually a good point about the gro clock cos we gave the light turned right off cos she never liked it. Maybe it's time to try in back on.
I'm just shattered right now
It's so hard to get your brain in gear with lack of sleep.
This morning she's lying on the sofa sating she's tired at 7:30
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Well all bets are off just now. She had a urine infection.
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Trying to get to grips with this so I'm going to log to see how it looks if that's ok.
WU 5:30 Nap 13:25-14:55(1hr 30mins) BT 19:20
WU 6:10 BT 18:40
WU 6:30 BT 18:35 ONS 11hrs 50mins
WU 5:50 Nap 13:20-15:10(1hr 50mins) BT 19:25 ONS 11hrs 15mins
WU 6:20 Nap 13:20-15:00(1hr 40mins) BT 19:45 ONS 10hrs 55mins
WU 6:15 Nap 13:20-14:50(1hr 30mins) BT19:35 ONS 10hrs 30mins
WU 5:00 BT 18:40 ONS 9hrs 25mins
WU 5:55 Nap 13:40-15:20(1hr 40mins) BT19:55 ONS 11hrs 15mins
WU 5:35 BT 18:45 ONS 9hrs 40mins
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Oh dear poor thing :( hope she's better soon :-*
(((Hugs))) all those early starts must be getting to you, they'd certainly be making me tired! Thanks for that log, I'm sorry I don't think I'm alert enough right now to take it all in but will certainly have a proper look next time I'm on, it's often really useful to see it laid out like that so I'll let you know if anything comes to mind...
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TBH, I think you might need to push bedtime later to get a later wake up. Apart from the couple of short nights, she is averaging about 12h sleep (or more) which is at the upper end of what you would expect for a 3 year old - 10-12h. On the days when she naps, she probably needs a longer A before she is tired enough to stay asleep past 5.30.
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Oh dear I've just written loads and deleted it all, basically I agree with clazzat ;) I came to the conclusion that she probably needs at least 12h A time, so just what clazzat said but the other way around :) but I think she'll need to be able to catch up a bit after really short nights or two consecutive nursery days - just as you did on that first of three napping days you posted above, that seemed to work well, whereas on the last napping day you posted she probably needed more of a catch up (ie longer nap or earlier BT) but she didn't get that and may have then done an OT short night, wdyt?
Since she seems to handle 12.5h NNDs pretty well, I do wonder whether more like 12.5h would work better for napping days too, but with a 1.5h nap that doesn't make for a very long night, so I'm wondering if things might work better if you shortened that nap further...wdyt? Do you always wake her? I'm thinking something along the lines of a 13h day with a 1h nap to start with, perhaps set BT at 7am and then if her WU gets later ever then BT could gradually be pushed later too? You don't necessarily have to jump straight there, you could try a 1h15 nap first if that feels safer.
Just bear in mind as I said that after two NNDs or a very short night you may want to either let her nap a little longer (but not too long) or give her EBT, I'd probably be inclined to do the former given that she doesn't seem to do particularly long nights - unless of course she doesn't end up napping longer in which case go for a slightly earlier BT.
Sorry I know I'm rambling, does that sound like a workable plan to you at all? :-*
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sirry its taken so long to get back, we have all been ill here.
Well she is driving me crazy.
Sat BT 19:40 - Nap 1hr BT 19:40 ONS 10hrs 10mins
Sun WU 5:50 - Nap 1hr BT 19:16 ONS 10hrs 14mins
Mon WU 5:30 - Nap 14:25 - 15:10 45 mins BT 19:35 ONS 10hrs 35mins
Tue WU 6:10 - NO NAP BT 18:55 ONS 10hrs 35 mins
Wed WU 5:30
On monday she refused her nap but i sat her in my bed watching curious geroge and she fell asleep at 14:25
I dont know if she is getting OT or UT?
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Unless you have a really strong reason for believing that she is OT, that looks like ut to me. It is always really hard to tell, but unless she has been very HSN until now, she is getting plenty of sleep in 24 hours so I think that the nap is taking away from her night sleep.
Iiwm, I would probably aim to have more nnds with catch up naps 2-3 times a week. One thing that I found when we were in this cycle was that when I did allow them to nap, I needed to leave them to sleep for as long as they wanted (even when that went way over what I was comfortable with - 3 hours once!) with bt as usual and that kind of reset them so that everything fell back into place again.
Hth!
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Thanks
I dont have a reason for thinking its OT apart from the fact she is tired in the evening.
She goes to nursery 3 afternoons a week, but can go the 5 i only didnt send her because she still needed those days to nap. So i might start sending her the 5 days and letting her nap at the weekend. Do you think and earlier nap or later nap makes a difference? x
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Oh dear sorry don't want to disagree with clazzat so just think of this as an alternative suggestion and see what you think fits best , ok? I just noticed that she seems to be getting less sleep overall now, and wondered if you could try perhaps setting BT at 7pm for the 1h nap days (not 7am as I see I wrote earlier -duh!), just because she was doing more like 11h nights before with 1.5h naps, and now everything seems to be getting shorter. Keep the 12.5h NNDs if you can, or perhaps 12h if the second consecutive NND, seemed to work for her before?
How is she acting in the mornings now when she wakes?
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so im confused, i dont really know how this nap dropping goes. But yesterday was another NND
WU 5:30 BT 18:30
and this morning she woke at 4:30!!! this is unheard of for her.
I did however manage to get her back to sleep after 30 mins she was very tired and she woke then at 6:50 ;D
So would you say this means she is OT?
Usually when she wakes in the morning she is not bad, but i refuse to take her downstarirs so she just sits in our room on the bed watching cbeebies witha a drink of milk until 6:30 when we start getting ready so its hard to tell.
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That probably does mean OT - how many nnds has she had in a row? In fairness, though, despite the 4.30 that was actually a pretty good night's sleep - I suspect that you are just in the really difficult phase where you have to juggle it constantly. I would say she probably needs a really good catch up nap - do you wake her from her naps or does she wake by herself?
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yeah i was so glad that she went back to sleep. She has had a 45 min late nap on monday then no nap Tue, Wed and it will be no nap today either. It will be softplay in the morning and nursery in the afternoon.
It really is hard working them out isnt it?
After today im off until monday so she can nap fri, sat, sun if needed.
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Picked her up from the childminders and she was crying asking if she can go for a sleep when she gets home. So that's her sleeping now , never seen her like this.
Not sure how that leaves us tomorrow with naps x
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Fingers crossed she has a really long night to catch up and you can start again tomorrow.
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Aw poor thing, yes hoping for a good catch up night too :-*
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She woke at 4:30 so I gave her a wee drink and a cuddle then she went back to sleep till 5:40 so 12 hours 10 min sleep. Good. So don't our think I should let her nap as long as she likes today then bt 7:30 then go back to 1hr capped with a 7pm bt sat and sun?
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I certainly think that's worth a try.
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Sounds like a plan :-*
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Oh dear I chickened out. Got to 3:30 and 2 hrs and I woke her. I know I shouldn't bur I was panicking about bed time x
Would you continue with the plan or go for longer nap again tomorrow?
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I would wait and see how the night/WU goes and make a decision tomorrow.
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Disaster. BT was 7:30 but it was call back , sore tummy, sore arm, can't manage to sleep ended up getting her up and she went to bed at 8:55
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Oh dear, it's hard to break out of these routine upsets isn't it? Really hope she does a good night now, I'd be tempted to let her sleep an extra half an hour in the morning but keep nap time the same. As for how long to let her nap, i think if she sleeps in I'd be inclined to wake her at the hour and go for 7pm BT??? Or even earlier if you feel she still has a big sleep debt. But if she does a short night again then yes I'd let her nap longer I think... :-*
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5am wu. I really don't get this at all. I'm worried if I do a long nap she'll not go to bed again x
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The problem with the long catch up nap is that it does really only work if they wake by themselves - if you are them it really backfires. I suspect that what you need is a few days with a 1h nap and normal bedtime, and then (if you are feeling brave!) you can try the long nap again next week when she is tired from her nnds at nursery.
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Well its not been so bad after the late night and 5am WU.
WU 5am Nap 1hr 45mins BT 19:30
WU 6am Nap 1hr (woke herself) BT 19:30
WU 6:20 today was a NND BT 18:10 (earlier than usual) she was falling asleep and asked to go to bed and didn't want a story just sleep, so we will see what the morning brings?
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That looks pretty good. Hope that things have settled down for you.
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So what did the morning bring? Hope she did manage to catch up her OT :-*
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its not too bad:
BT 18:10
WU 5:35 Nap 1hr 40mins (my fault, was so tired i fell asleep) BT 21:00 disaster
WU 6:20 BT 18:45
WU 6:07 BT 18:30 She was shattered, full meltdown as soon as she got in the car at 5pm
WU 5:40
I'm guessing just an 1hr nap today and 7pm BT and hope shell catch up a bit on the 2 NND's over night?
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Worth a try :-*
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So BT was 19:15 it was not too bad, she complained but I lay on the floor and told her I was going to sleep there next to her and she fell asleep in 15 mins. So lets hope she stays asleep and doesn't wake too early x
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She complained that she wasn't tired enough? Or something else?
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Yeah wasn't tired and she wanted to come downstairs, but not sure if she's just doing that as we brought her down again the 2 times she had a long nap and didn't go to sleep until 9pm.
She doesn't miss a trick my girl. She's been so clingy the last 2 months as well, wants to sit on my knee all the time, asks me to feed her and, wont go out without me. Crying if daddy wants to take the girls to their aunties for a visit
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Woke up at 5:20 she won't even stay quietly in her room , she just cries and shouts mummy constantly over and over.
It's 7:30 and she's lying on the sofa with a cover over her saying she is really tired.
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Aw poor thing, she must be tired! Too late now for me to suggest anything for today, what did you do?
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Just the same 1hr nap and 7pm bt, but was 7:30 when she fell asleep . What would you have done tomorrow we are out so she won't nap prom get 30-40 mins on the car on the way home at 4. Do you think I should go really early bt tomorrow assuming we get another ew
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Hmm hard to say, especially if she does end up having a late, short nap - imagine she wouldn't then be keen on a really early BT... But if she doesn't nap, 6:30pm seems to work quite well for you on NNDs, right?
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Yep. What would you have done today cos I think this is how our weekends are going to play out just now xx
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Wu 5:15 (what a lovely birthday treat for me).
So I need a plan for the weekends. If wed thu are nnd's when would you do the catch up and when would you do the 1hr nap?
I'm assuming this is ot?
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It does sound OT, given how much sleep she has ended up missing out on. How early could you get her down for her nap? If you could get her down for, say, 11.30 then she could have a longish nap and then still a good length of time until bedtime. It sounds to me like she is OT, but the afternoon a is not long enough for her to go to sleep easily and then she is missing her window and having an OT night.
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Hi just popping in and not read while thread but have you considered just ditching the nap totally and going for EBT? We ended up just going cold turkey as naps just affected BT, if DS dropped off in the car or buggy we just allowed 20 mins max.
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Hi haribo I really don't think she would cope cold turkey. We did 3 nnd in a row and she was crying her eyes out asking to go to bef without dinner at 5:30 by the 3rd night. Usually we do 6:30
Clazzat : do you mean try that for our catch up maybe 1 day every weekend or both days?
Today we are out so maybe she'll fall asleep in the car on the way over at 11ish then on the way back at 4. It's an hour each way x
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Neither of them slept so ebt of 6:30 that's still a 13hr 15 min day. Not sure if im not going early enough to make ebt work?
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I think you might need an earlier BT, we did a few 5.45 BT when DS first nap dropped.
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I think that if you are going down the no nap route then bt needs to be 5.30 - that's what we did for many months after the nap was dropped.
If you are going to try what I suggested, I think that my idea was that you would be aiming for a normal length nap and therefore you would try an early nap on any day that she was napping and see how that goes.
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Well yesterday was day 2 of no nap. We got home after work at 5:10 and I managed to get them fed and dd1 in bed for 5:45 and dd2 in bed for 5:55. The little one is always fine and will sleep forever if u let het but result for Eva she woke at 5:47 so almost 12 hours. I think the earlier bt makes a difference. I'm don't work today so I'm going to try an early nap so I can get bt a bit nearer 7:30 again fingers crossed she'll nap early I think if I do lunch early ill just confuse her into going to sleep as she always naps after lunch. So aiming or 12 today x
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Great update, fingers crossed for today. My DS loves an early lunch x
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Well they did both enjoy early lunch. However dd1 refused to nap before dd2. So I had to get her down first which was a bit earlier than usual then dd1 was 12:30 so later than planned but still 1hr earlier than normal. Just dreading dd2 having a rubbish nap cos I've put her down first.
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She slept well I had to wake her dyer 2 hours at 2:30 cos we have a doctor's appointment. So it will be wither she goes to bef tonight or ill have to work out how to get her to nap before het wee sister and try 11:30. She was still shattered when I woke her
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How did bedtime go?
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Took 30 mins to go asleep with me next to her , so 8pm bt then just woke up now at 6am. So good result
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That sounds great - hopefully she will have a few good days/nights so that she can catch up and you can carry on on a more even keel.
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Sorry I know I've been away a while. Been manic with illness, fractured ankles and everything else.
We are in a bit if a pickle now Eva has decided she doesn't want to nap ever now. So we are now on day 8 of no nap. We were doing ok with a couple of catch up naps but now they are being refused wu is getting earlier again. I was sticking to a 12 hr day which was giving us a 6-6 or close enough routine. Now we have a 5:05 wake up and a clearly tired girl but she still won't nap
Even when I offer quiet time she doesn't nod just fights it so am I just stuck with it or is there any suggestions to help. What would you do with bedtime tonight x
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Will she car nap for 20 mins if u drove around? Otherwise I'd to 5.30 bt
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I'd go with a very early bedtime - 5.30, as Zoe says, if she'll do it.
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She kept saying she wanted to go to nursery this afternoon so we took a nice long drive on the way and not a wink of sleep. Got to nursery she ran in all happy then had a meltdown. The teacher picked her up and took her in to see the new fairy garden and she calmed down so no nap today. I work wed, thu so there will get no nap the next 2 days either taking us to 11 days.
Would I me mad to try earlier than 5:30 would that just lead to another early morning?
Definitely no nursery on Fri I'm telling her it's closed on holiday then we'll try again then.
It's so hard seeing how tired she is and knowing a wee nap would make all tge difference, but she just won't take it.
Car naps in general will get difficult cos dd2 never naps in the car so we need to be home for her naps .
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I'd try earlier if you wanted what's the worst that will happen she wakes a bit earlier but she might not.x