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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: *Jo* on January 18, 2016, 06:29:48 am

Title: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 18, 2016, 06:29:48 am
I'm desperate. So desperate I've resorted to a slight sedative this past week for Asher who is 2.5 now. I've never been able to fully sleep train him because he's had severe asthma (hospitalised 10 times in his first year) so any time he's gotten slightly upset it has triggered his asthma so I've never been able to do more than patting with a dummy and white noise. He's always woke multiple times a night with coughing for his asthma. The past year his asthma has improved and we had 6 solid weeks of sleeping through at one point. How asthma cleared up majorly and he started sleeping through.

Then a few things happened and he developed some fears and began waking hysterically up to 10 times a night. We sorted through all this m, however now he seems to have developed a habit of waking. He's mostly dropped his nap though it makes no difference to his sleep except he sleeps shorter nights if he does have a nap.

So now we have fighting to go to sleep and waking multiple times a night. Ideally bedtime is 7pm but he's been doing 10 hour broken nights so I've been putting him to bed earlier, sometimes even 5pm and he'll go to sleep straight away!

There's no rhyme or reason to his waking. It could be for any reason... A hug, a drink (even tho he has a drink bottle by his bed and has always used it and doesn't need my help at all with this) any reason. He will wake up and if I don't fly up the stairs to him (yes my poor resting heart climbs stairs to him each night) he will become so loud the neighbours can hear him and he will come storming out of his room to me.
I've tried responding to the hugs, he will usually go straight back to sleep if I do tho sometimes he's up for two hours after as well, I've tried walk in walk out, he just follows me screaming for his dummy/cuddly/toy/drink all things he can get himself. I've slept in his room, he thinks it's play time if I'm in there.

My dr suggested a sedative for a week to help him snap out of it.
Tonight he was throwing such a wobbly he fell out of bed and smacked his head on his drawers.
I'm so tired I'm constantly snapping at all the kids, I cry all the time, I can't focus, I'm maki g stupid decisions and anxiety attacks are starting up especially at bedtime and I dread nights, I don't want to go to bed because I know it will be filled with the same thing up to 15 times some nights.

Please help?! I'm scared I might actually do something I will regret
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 18, 2016, 12:01:50 pm
Hi Hun, hugs it's sounds very stressful for you.

There is development leap at 2.5 so that could be contributing...! Does he go to sleep independently at all? I have no experience of sedatives so I can't comment on those but I would suggest trying gradual withdrawal.

I have to rush right now but will be back, don't give up sweetie we will try and help you out even if it's someone for you to talk to  :-*
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 18, 2016, 12:09:35 pm
Yes he can fall asleep independent. It's 1am and he's woken now, wants his drink of water. I went upstairs, pointed to his drink bottle and said "there's your drink bottle" and walked out. This made his decide to start screaming for me. I went in and put him back to bed about  10 times before he went quiet. Got downstairs and into bed, he starts crying again, this time wants a hug. My 7 yr old comes out and yells "mum, he wants a hug!" I tell him to go back to bed, I go upstairs and put him back to bed screaming a couple of times, not saying a single word to him, each time he flies after me as I walk out the room.
At this point I want to pick him up and throw him out the window, rage is building because this is every single night.
I've gone back downstairs and he's called out a few times, it's 50/50 as to whether this will continue for another 2 hours or he may go back to sleep.

Before all this I had weaned him off the dummy and white noise. Now it's all back on and we still aren't sleeping. Almost three months of this.
I can't keep doing this, I feel like calling someone and saying that's it I'm done, take my child from me or I'm going to hurt him. I've been begging people for help for weeks now. I'm fighting an anxiety attack right now, I'm too scared to go to sleep because my heart and body and mind can't handle getting to that resting state and being thrown into sheer panic on waking to his desperate cries.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Kellyjs on January 18, 2016, 12:18:24 pm
I just wanted to pop by with some (hugs). I totally feel your pain atm as we're are going through something quite similar. It took DD 1.5hrs to do to sleep last night and the call backs are horrendous. Whether it be for water, a wee, etc etc. Mind you, I never get called back for hugs  :(.

As ours are the same age, I would presume it's developmental and we both just have to ride it out. I got rather angry last night and had to scream into a pillow. It's very rare I lose it, but all this is pushing my limits.

What I do do is camp outside DD's bedroom until she falls asleep. Some verbal reassurance tends to work, until she escalates where I have to go in. For us too, it is every single night. I do notice a slight difference when she does;t take a nap in that it doesn't go on for as long. Does yours still take a nap and for how long for? Maybe someone can help if there is a routine tweak that's needed too? If you post your easy perhaps we can take a peek?

I just wanted to let you know you're not alone. I recently posted on here about it and how fed up I was. The general consensus was that this leap is by far the worst if that helps any?

I don't know anything about sedatives for children. Personally I wouldn't like DD to be on them, but of course that is up to you and your doctor to decide xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 18, 2016, 15:47:34 pm
I did spend a good amount of time camped outside DS bedroom at this age or sat on the stairs, we also did a lot if deals like if you stay in bed and go to sleep I'll stay sat here for xyz or leave the door open etc. Is he clingy towards u in the daytime? Are the night wakings at similar times each night?

Have u got anyone to talk to in real life or visit the dr and tell them you are at the end of your tether. Please take some time out if you can even if it's to go do some deep breathing outside to try and relax yourself. x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 18, 2016, 19:14:17 pm
I have talked to a lot of people asking for advice. Hence the slight sedative which clearly hasn't worked anyway so I won't continue with that.
I can't camp out outside his room, I am a single parent and the other two create chaos if I'm upstairs wth Asher, they are becoming resentful as well cos of this.
He isn't extra clingy during the day but his behaviour is atrocious and I don't really like him at the moment. He even tells me during the day "I so so tired" so I know the lack of sleep is affecting him.

He doesn't really nap anymore. The other day he had a nap cos he had been up since 5am and it was a 10 hour broken night. I never let him sleep longer than 45 mins at the very most if he does.

I sat at the top of the stairs last night, it made no difference. If I call out verbally it actually makes him even worse like he's saying "so you're right there but you won't come to me!!!!" Like he's outraged.

He woke another 4 times after that last night, wanting his dummy, hugs and who knows what else.

My friend feels there needs to be an intervention, that someone else needs to tend to his night wakings for awhile to give me a break and so that he stops getting MUMMY whenever he wants. I've yet to find someone for this :(

I'm studying this year and I start in a month, I can't do this if he is like this, I can barely function now let alone with an intensive course.
I feel so lost. My other two were fully sleep trained before they were even 1. This is a nightmare
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 19, 2016, 07:11:37 am
What times WU and BT? Have u got grandparents near that could just have him for a night or 2 to give u a break?

Reward charts? Would they work for him if it was visual in his bedroom?x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 19, 2016, 08:46:15 am
I actually thought of the reward chart today and have started it. I explained to him that we all need our sleep to grow and be happy etc and I said would he like to earn a sticker every morning. I explained that if he would stay in bed all night and not call out for mamma that he could put a sticker on his chart the next morning. He got excited and we went to the shop and I let him pick out the stickers he wanted. I also bought a little night light that has stars on it and slowly changes colours. I explained before bed again the reward thing. He went straight to sleep but by 8:30pm he had woken three times already. The first two times they were just little cries and he put himself back to sleep. The third one was pretty major but I had someone turn up and couldn't leave to tend to him so he cried hard for awhile (always a "want" cry, I move for a "need" cry) and after awhile he calmed down and went back to sleep.

If he cries like that in the night I go up because I've been bolted out of sleep and it's just a knee jerk reaction. I think I may hold back now tho.

Today's wake up was not normal, he was awake between 5-6am and had fallen back to sleep til 7:30am which almost never happens so bedtime tonight (with no nap) was 7pm.

Usually it's about a 6/6:30am wake up and bedtime will be depending on how he's handling the day but generally without a nap it's 11-12 hours later.

It's 9:40pm and he's just woken again......

So with the rewards chart if he cries out do I still give a sticker in the morning if I don't go tend to him? I did say that he had to stay in his own bed and sleep all night and not call out for me but I'm wondering if that's expecting too much too soon?

And no there's literally no one to give me a nights break. No one.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 19, 2016, 08:56:57 am
I would still go to him, say remember your stickers you need to go back to sleep now, mummy is going back to bed now. Keep repeating, but like you say don't jump straight in give it a few mins to see if he can settle back down. I know it's a pain but if he gets into the habit then it will become the norm. Does he have lights on a timer or gro clock to know when it's morning?
For us I said if he got a full weeks stickers then we could go choose a reward, normally something from a £1 shop, I know everyone doesn't agree with this but my DS is very stubborn and a tad of bribery worked best.
If you have to go to him but he remains in bed I'd still give the sticker as its new to him so they joy of the reward might be a good incentive, especially if he gets lots of praise and cuddles in the morning, my DS loves to make us happy, so I often say thank you for staying in bed that made mummy very happy as I was so tired...he thinks he's been a big boy and really pleased with himself after that.  :)
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: okinawamama on January 19, 2016, 18:11:52 pm
I had to pop over in part to offer support. I too have a tough sleeper, well past the toddler years, and it's tough.

I too used the reward system with my little guy, and wanted to say that starting very very small was the only way we found it effective. Saying zero cry outs for an entire week is completely unattainable in his mind, so even trying, is futile. We used a very gradual approach. We would have a small reward for calling us back many times, but only needing a cuddle of 2 minutes or less, then after a few days, we'd up the requirement and he'd get the reward for only calling us back once or even twice depending on the frequency of the initial wakings,(crying out and putting himself back to sleep didn't count against him, in my mind, that's a total win),then continue on with requiring more and more sleep from him to obtain the reward.

also, are your boys sharing a room? I was completely terrified of letting my terrible sleeper share a room with my rockstar sleeper out of fear that it would ruin the one good sleeper I had, However, I found that having the company of his older sibling in his room, made DS2 feel a little better. And, surprisingly enough, DS1 slept through a majority of the wakings, or on some occasions, I'd even hear DS1 tell DS2 that it was still night time and to go back to sleep. When DS2 was old enough to have his own bed, he'd even go lay on the floor next to his older brothers bed and would find comfort in having him close. It was scary at first, but for us, we did find it somewhat helpful. Also,  we put the boys together right as DS2 was nap dropping, but we found that allowing DS2 a short nap each day, extended his day so that he could go to bed at the same time as DS1, and that helped DS2 feel more comfortable in his room and They often fell asleep "talking" to one another.

Good luck! Hugs! I always had in my mind that surely he won't be waking when he's 2 or 3, and then when we got to the point where he was, I was so discouraged. I hope he gives you some peace and sleep soon!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 19, 2016, 18:43:14 pm
Well last night was fantastic!! He cried out at 10:30 and I went in, turned the night light on again (he must've turned it off at some point) and said "remember your stickers for the morning, time for sleep, mummy is going to bed now, goodnight" I don't usually say that many words to him at night as I don't like to interact so it felt a bit funny but he went straight back to sleep. I heard him stir a couple times in the night but otherwise he slept from 10:30-6:30am!!!!!! I was so happy!

I praised him for staying in bed all night and he got to pick his sticker this morning. I think the night light helped immensely and then the sticker this morning would reinforce it all. I'm hoping this isn't a one off anyway

He has shared a room with Ds2 for about a week but ds2 wasn't getting any sleep and it was showing in his behaviour and he was constantly waking up when Asher was and he would get mad and say "go to sleep Asher! I'm tired!" And then when Asher was awake for hours at a time ds2 would come and get me and tell me that Asher was keeping him awake. Asher did find some small comfort in sharing the bedroom but it wasn't enough on its own, maybe now that he's improving I can try again, I just didn't want two exhausted boys, that was too hard.
Best sleep I've had in months!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 19, 2016, 18:45:50 pm
Also, nothing to signal to him that it's morning. Times are tight and I can barely afford food let along anything else to help this (even the $3 stickers was a big stretch out of the budget)
The sun comes up about 6am here so it gets light in his room, I guess that's why I don't push him sleeping past 6/6:30am cos if it's light then I can understand his body being awake
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 19, 2016, 19:32:23 pm
That's fantastic Hun, I bet it felt great having that nice sleep. Even if it regresses one night then it will get better if you stick to it  :)

Fingers crossed for a good night again x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 19, 2016, 20:08:26 pm
Bit late here hun but omg what a nightmare and you are an absolutely super star of holding it together and coming up with a solution. Hope you are proud of yourself as well as him.

Sorry to hear times are so tight. (((Hugs)))
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 20, 2016, 19:26:50 pm
Ugh. Second night was a dismal fail. He even demanded the nightlight be turned off at 4am...

I'm ready to walk out of this house and call it quits on being a mother, cos I'm not a very nice one now anyway
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 20, 2016, 20:18:43 pm
Ok, you had one good night. Was anything different with the second night? I would try not to give up right now unless you are convinced that this approach will not work.  Consistency is key, Tracy always said.  Do you think he cares about/understands the reward chart?

Perhaps off the wall but do you think he would sleep better if he shared with you? (don't hate me).  I'm thinking of the examples Tracy gives where parents had to help children learn that their cot/bedroom was a good/safe/nice place to sleep, a few of those had parent sleeping in the child's room and doing Gradual Withdrawal of themselves from the room.

You have it really tough, there is no doubt about it. hang in there.  Any way you can catch a nap in the daytime? ((hugs))
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 20, 2016, 20:33:06 pm
Ah Hun sometimes they do regress, but keeping consistent will be the key, also agree with idea of sleeping with you might just give u all a bit of respite.
I have a friend who after a lot of trying has let her DS have an air bed in her room as they were just getting so desperate at nights....he used to sleep through and they were all happy. A year on he's happy back in his own bed, he just needed to be near people at that time. Not saying this is for you but might be worth thinking about for the short term x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 20, 2016, 21:18:29 pm
I've tried sleeping with him and he just thinks it's playtime and the last time I did it last week he talked to me for 2.5 hours at midnight, I had my back to him the whole time so I wasn't encouraging it.

I'm sitting at the Drs now, I'm gonna ask for a sedative to give him for a week, I feel this is a bad habit he's gotten into and numerous people have told me that when their dr gave their LO a sedative for a week it helped them snap out of it. I'm desperate enough to try anything.

I don't think he cares about the reward chart because when I talked to him this morning saying it was really sad that he didn't get to put a sticker up today because he was awake and out of his bed last night he didn't care at all.

I actually held the door shut as he screamed behind it last night because it was actually the safer option. I knew if I went in there I would lose it and hurt him. He screamed for about 15 mins and I kept saying through the door to go to sleep, it was time to go to sleep etc. when he finally calmed down he went back to bed and began talking to himself!!!!
Then he cried. Like a real cry. He needed me then and so I went to him. I told him he had woken me up, his brothers and his toys and that we were all very tired and going back to sleep. He nodded and went back to sleep. He would not have heard me if I had tried that earlier. He did continue to wake every half an hour after that but not to the point I had to go to him.
Nothing was different the second night. I stuck to what worked the night before lol
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 21, 2016, 04:23:02 am
Well, an interesting update. Dr has prescribed melatonin which I've now given him and he's in bed. Also he looked at the medication he's on for his asthma and guess what the side effects are????

Behavior/mood changes, hostility, aggression, agitation, vivid and unpleasant dreams, , confusion, anxiety, hallucinations, sleepwalking, suicidal thoughts, suicidal actions (including suicide), insomnia, tremor, and depression.

Ugh.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 21, 2016, 07:12:52 am
Goodness that's a lot of side effects, if there any different medication u can change too? Hope he sleeps well for u x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 21, 2016, 07:23:55 am
Yes, we will try something else, it's just that that particular medication has done amazing wonders for his asthma, it's pretty much gone... But these side effects... He's woken twice tonight so far and it's 8pm. He was crying a hard demanding cry. I waited for the "need" cry and it never came. I sat at the top of the stairs and hid. I heard him stop crying and take a drink then back to sleep. The dr said the results wouldn't be instant but let's hope we get somewhere fast.
I've got friends who talked to me today and that they are really worried about me and are thinking an intervention was in order. If these new meds etc don't work I'll take the intervention
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on January 21, 2016, 14:18:54 pm
WOW first of all HUGE HUGS to you. It sounds so rough.
Waking so often does not sound behavioral to me. In my experience fighting BT, a loooong NW or EW is routine related or behavioral. But waking so often (like every half hour as you said in your earlier post) is due to some kind of discomfort or medical issue.
Just a thought ... have you checked his mouth lately? 2.5 year old is prime time for getting those 2 year molars. I know you do not want to talk too much when he wakes to not escalate things but is he able to verbalize what upsets him?   
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 21, 2016, 16:04:50 pm
I'm wondering similar things, tbh. 

So the medication could be disturbing his sleep? Will it be changed? Can you relate changes in sleep to giving that medication?  Or could he have another issue, like sleep apnea? Or even just normal old teeth as Suzanna says?  It's an awful lot of sleep disruption to be habit.  It seems a lot to be teeth either.

Did GP look him over at all?

Lots of hugs. I hope your friends could maybe watch the boys while you relax or sleep one day.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 21, 2016, 18:22:12 pm
I would think he would have the odd night where he crashes and does a long night if it were purely habit or SA.

Good idea to get him checked over if you haven't already. We did have NW at 2.5 and that was teeth and developmental for us but it was never that many NW constantly.

Your friends sound good so like Anne says could they look after DS for a few hours?x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 21, 2016, 18:40:21 pm
Yes he's def got the two year old molars popping through, they are about half way. But even with nurofen and paracetamol he's still waking. He stops his asthma medication today so it will still be in his system last night. I gave him the melatonin last night. Even after that cr@ppy night he refused a nap yesterday so I put him to bed at 5;15pm. Instantly asleep. He woke twice but put himself back to sleep.
Then 2.25am he woke up and came out of his room, he refused to go back to sleep til 4:30am
He asked for a drink, I told him his drink bottle was beside his bed and he knew how to use it, he never too the drink which tells me he didn't really need it.
He threw his dummy on the floor then proceeded to cry for his dummy, I told him he threw it, he can pick it up. He didn't for ages.
He then changed to wanting a hug. Normally I would but to me this is just a tactic right now. I told him I was tired and going to bed and goodnight. He said "goodnight!" And I walked away, 10 mins later we se repeating the whole thing. This went on for two hours. Then he finally put himself back to sleep and woke up at 7am when ds2 decided to walk in and tell him it was time to get up!!!!

It's still a better night than what we've been having.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 21, 2016, 21:55:44 pm
Nothing helped with our molars just had to ride it out. Hoping tonight's better for u x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on January 21, 2016, 22:53:37 pm
I just saw this post Jo and wanted to offer hugs.

I also wondered about something like sleep apnea. Has the dr considered anything like that?

I hope it is the medication and changing it helps him be more settled and gets you more sleep. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 22, 2016, 07:15:24 am
I've watched him sleep and seen no sign of apnea, dr doesn't seemed worried that it's that bit of course if this continues I'll be sure to bring it up again.

He was in an amazing mood today and I'm sure it's because the sleep he did get was a deep sleep from the melatonin. He even had a nap in the car today, only about 15mind cos we had to get out of the car but then tonight again he was so tired his eyes were almost red half an hour after I had given him the melatonin. He was so tired at bedtime he could barely handle the story and kept turning over to go to sleep, that's never happened!!!

Stay tuned for night two!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 22, 2016, 07:23:24 am
Bless him he must be exhausted with all the NW. Hope you get a good sleep too x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on January 22, 2016, 11:05:37 am
fingers crossed for you.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on January 22, 2016, 13:52:33 pm
I used Melatonin with my DS around 2-2.5 years old too. We had some long NW's and sleep fighting. He could go on for 2 hours to nod off and then he would be so OT. Anyway, I can highly recommend Melatonin ... it worked wonders for us. I never saw any side effects or any issues with becoming dependent but I made sure to use it only for about 5-6 days a time then took a break. And yes, he used to get the red rings under his eyes after about 20 min of taking the Melatonin and could barely keep his eyes open.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on January 22, 2016, 17:04:29 pm
Well, an interesting update. Dr has prescribed melatonin which I've now given him and he's in bed. Also he looked at the medication he's on for his asthma and guess what the side effects are????

Behavior/mood changes, hostility, aggression, agitation, vivid and unpleasant dreams, , confusion, anxiety, hallucinations, sleepwalking, suicidal thoughts, suicidal actions (including suicide), insomnia, tremor, and depression.

Ugh.


Was he on singulair? (Montelukast) My nephew had a horrid time on that med too (yet my DH takes it with no issues). I hope that they can find a good alternative for him and that this is key in solving the sleep issues xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 22, 2016, 18:13:12 pm
11.5 hours straight without waking at all!!! Woohoo!!

Now if only the neighbours hadn't partied til 5am.....

Yep he's on montelukast and I took it off him yesterday. Once I researched the side effects I saw people were having a horrid time with it!! I couldn't believe it
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 22, 2016, 18:28:45 pm
Wow that's great for him, shame about neighbours!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on January 22, 2016, 18:52:48 pm
Boo to the neighbours! But awesome otherwise xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 22, 2016, 20:55:29 pm
Oh that's amazing!

Hard to know if it's skipping that medicine or the melatonin.  Maybe the melatonin is helping him get back to where he might be without that med? 
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 23, 2016, 09:37:10 am
Hmm well tonight isn't going quite so well... We've had another "mum I want my drink bottle (that's right next to him)" fiasco. It lasted about half an hour. I thought after last night that we would be on a roll with the melatonin in his system. Am I wrong?!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 23, 2016, 09:51:21 am
Jo, as I understand it melatonin works on falling asleep, but has not much effect on NWs. 

I suppose you've spoken to him (a million times) out of the moment about his water bottle, how you're right next door, and you all need sleep blah blah. 

Still, it is better than it was. ((hugs))

This seems like a good article, lots of info about it:
http://seattlemamadoc.seattlechildrens.org/using-melatonin-to-help-children-fall-asleep/
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 23, 2016, 09:58:13 am
But I told the dr he has no trouble falling asleep, it's just night wakings, why would he give me something that fixed something that's not broken??

After reading that article I feel tricked :(
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 23, 2016, 10:22:56 am
I dunno, hun.  Maybe doc doesn't know much about it beyond melatonin=sleep?? You're in NZ? My nephew (who's a lot older) is also being given melatonin for NWs.  Strange.

Still, seems like maybe it was the meds causing the crazy wake-ups?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 24, 2016, 04:01:46 am
Well after that one wake up he didn't wake up again until 4am and I think he was just cold cos I tucked him in and he went back to sleep so it was only a 30 second wake up really and then he slept til I don't know when but when I woke at 7am my older son said Asher was playing quietly in his room lol such a difference!!

I'm presuming tonight will be interesting as we've had a bday party today and copious amounts of sugar have been consumed as well as a hard bump on the head lol
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 24, 2016, 07:12:29 am
Maybe all the extra playing at the party will have worn him out instead (always that to hope for) great night though...maybe he was massively OT too and now that's easing his moods improving xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 24, 2016, 08:09:23 am
Hmmm 9pm and three wake ups already.... Was I wrong to put my hope in this melatonin? I've heard such good feedback about it but we are on day 4 and this is happening, or could it just be the fact that he's had way too much sugar and activities today? I thought even with that the melatonin would help calm him
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 24, 2016, 08:28:33 am
Maybe just an over exciting and stimulating day Hun, my DS always has a bad night after an exciting day. I'd see what the next night brings for a better idea x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 24, 2016, 08:54:26 am
Ok. I'm just so scared to go back to what we were having a couple days ago. Like literally scared. I can feel the anxiety building in me thinking about it. It really is awful. I don't want to do the wrong thing and making things worse. I'm sure he's felt my anger all those nights he wouldn't sleep, I'm pretty sure I've got some work to do to rebuild his trust, I know I've traumatised him, it was actually safer to leave him behind the door and talk to him than to go to him so I had to do that, now I need to work on our relationship. He's changing preschool next week. I just know that's going to affect him too and that worries me again
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 24, 2016, 09:05:36 am
I know it's hard when they have a good sleep spell then it goes bad but just try to think of a day at a time. Do some games together, read stories and have fun with the kids, tonight's another night, tomorrow's another day try to keep yourself from getting to stressed (easier said than done I know)
Maybe have a little cuddle and chat with him about how nice it was he slept the other night and how it must've made him feel so full of energy etc just so he knows he did well x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on January 25, 2016, 14:06:34 pm
I was wondering about the melatonin too because I also thought it was more to help fall asleep. That is what my DS needed help with.

I think that it will need some time to get the meds out of his system. If you just took him off it a couple days ago then it might still affect him. BTW my DS who is pretty spirited had always restless nights after an exciting day like that. How close was the party to BT? I found that DS needed a good 3-4 hours to wind down after a party or exciting event. Was the rest of the night better? Because I also noticed with DS that if it was overstimulation then the first part of the night would be bad but then he would settle down and the rest of the night was OK.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 25, 2016, 18:54:28 pm
He slept fine after that, only woke one other time and it was super quick.

So now basically he wakes twice a night for a quick "lay down" which is tons better than before but still not ideal.

I took some of his melatonin last night to see how it affects him (another parent suggested I do this as she had done it and was surprised how powerful it was) I took it and wow it is powerful and I'm an adult! Then I had the worst nights sleep! I kept waking up and I had about 5 dreams, two of them really vivid and scary, I'm not really sure I want to give him another dose now :(
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 25, 2016, 19:30:55 pm
Sounds scary, can you give half doses to wean off it?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 25, 2016, 19:32:05 pm
wow it is powerful and I'm an adult! Then I had the worst nights sleep! I kept waking up and I had about 5 dreams, two of them really vivid and scary, I'm not really sure I want to give him another dose now
That is scary!! But a great idea to try it.  I'm not sure I'd have thought of that.

How are you feeling now? You were super worried a few days ago ((hugs))
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 25, 2016, 21:18:14 pm
I'm feeling ALOT better about the whole thing. I will give him a half dose tonight and see if that helps him, maybe that's why he's woken twice a night still?? I know it made me groggy all night long. Every time
I woke up I could still feel it so for saying it doesn't keep people asleep I would say that it does, at the right dose that doesn't give bad dreams
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 25, 2016, 21:59:51 pm
Glad your feeling a bit better, at least you've been getting a bit better sleep. xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 26, 2016, 14:13:02 pm
Um so help!!!!
Half a tablet I gave him. We are right back to where we are. Multiple wakings and looooong. It's 3 and he's been awake for 30mins now with no indication he's going back to sleep.

I don't want to have to sedate him all the time!!!' This is ridiculous!!!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 26, 2016, 14:16:56 pm
Do you think I need to do some sort of gradual withdrawal method???
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 26, 2016, 14:40:31 pm
Ah Hun I don't know enough about these sedatives to say, I'll have an ask about x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 26, 2016, 15:07:39 pm
Here's my night so far:

Asleep 6pm
7:50- resettled with dummy
9:50- resettled with dummy
2:40am - came out of his room. I put him back and told him it's time for sleep and goodnight
2:50- calling out for me, half crying, starting to get more. Go to him, he tells me he wants Charlie Brown (toy that's beside his bed) I point to it and say he's right there
3:15- calling out for me, asks for Charlie Brown again. I go to him and give him Charlie Brown, he tells me he wants him beside the bed (where he originally was!) I tell him
Charlie Brown is tired and wants to go to sleep and goodnight. He says goodnight, quite happily.
3:30- pathetic whimper "muuuum" more like a whinge. I tell him it's time for sleep, I'll see you in the morning, goodnight
3:40- I give him second half of melatonin tablet and shut the door
3:45am- "muuuuuum" basically just whining for me
3:55am hard crying begins, crying out for dummy. Starts screaming for dummy.
4am he comes out of his room, crying. I go up the stairs, pick him up, throw him into bed and just start bawling my eyes out begging him to go back to sleep. He continues to ask for his dummy. I yell at him that it's beside his bed where IT ALWAYS IS! And he takes the spare one. He lays down. I just sit on the floor by his bed sobbing for a few mins trying to breathe as I realise I'm fighting an anxiety attack. Then I get up and leave.


I just don't know what else to do. It's 4am and I've had about 2 hours sleep. This is exactly like when I first started this thread. I'm so lost :(
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 26, 2016, 15:37:46 pm
It's nearly 5am and he's still awake. This just isn't right is it?? Am I going out of my mind?? What am I doing wrong???!?!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 26, 2016, 16:17:14 pm
Oh sweetie, what an awful night. I'd go back to the doctors, talk about the medication and have a chat about how you feel too.

Something isn't right, try to stay calm unknown easier said than done but it won't help either of you. Your not doing anything wrong your just having a really rough patch right now. I've got to fetch DS from pre school right now but I'll be back later xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 26, 2016, 19:07:58 pm
I've got an appt for him this afternoon. This isn't normal is it?? This isn't just a child that wants my attention? Please tell me it's not normal behavioural stuff?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 26, 2016, 19:29:23 pm
Good luck at the appointment, it seems that he is waking a bit too often but sometimes behavioural stuff does take ages to sort.

Can you cuddle him back to sleep at all?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Kellyjs on January 26, 2016, 19:49:22 pm
I'm so sorry you had a rough night last night Jo. I had one too if it's any consolation. DD was screaming for over an hour before BT and nothing I could do helped. I lost it too and shouted  :-[. I'm afraid I don't have any advice atm, but I wanted you to know you're not the only one and as our LO's are the same age perhaps we can hope together that's it's just developmental and once the moon changes (or something  ;)) we'll have our sweet little children back? xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on January 26, 2016, 21:22:18 pm
Hugs Jo. I'd definitely check with the Dr about the meds. It might not be worth giving a dose that is too low to have an effect.

Do you have a monitor? I'm just thinking I use the talk back feature on the monitor to tell mine to go to sleep without needing to get up.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 27, 2016, 03:17:22 am
No, if I cuddle him he just thinks it's play time. No monitor either
Dr had nothing for me, she's stumped, she said that the melatonin is the highest they give. She did suggest alternating the phenergan and melatonin so he doesn't build up a tolerance which he seems to be doing.
I've talked to a child nurse who's basically said he's wanting me at night and no matter how big or small that's what he's getting. And until I don't give him ME and he realises this then this will continue. You know what that means right? She's suggesting CIO :(
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 27, 2016, 03:34:56 am
She also said get rid of the dummy, he has a cuddly so he won't be without. Put a nightlight in his room and if he gets up shut the door and lock it. Tell him prior to this and at the time that if he gets up the door will be shut, he can only have the door open if he stays in bed.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 27, 2016, 06:21:47 am
You know I'm sure that we don't support CIO so I'd personally go with camping outside the door or rapid return to bed. Locking the door is something I couldn't do, maybe he does want your attention but imagine someone locking you in when you felt you needed someone. (Not judging just my thoughts) what about a gate on his door if you have a stair gate?

I'd go with telling him at BT that when he wakes and calls for you that you will come check on him but you won't stay as you all need to sleep in your own beds. When he wakes go in tell him it's still nighttime and everyone is sleeping, quick kiss and you will leave his door a little bit open. Basically keep repeating, if he's not poorly and its sleep training related he will learn.
I know it makes you frustrated and anxiety kicks in but really try to stay calm so he's not getting loads of attention.

Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 27, 2016, 06:47:29 am
Yes I'm aware of no CIO here lol I'm a very long time member (was even a moderator on the naps board for a year!) I  just haven't been active for awhile because both my other two kids were sleep trained the baby whisperer way and I've had no real issues with sleep as they were all trained before they were even 6 months old and I only had the occasional hiccups. With Asher I couldn't sleep train due to his asthma and so now I'm just in unfamiliar territory. I've not dealt with a toddler sleep issue before and with two other kids to deal with and the lack of sleep the desperation is growing, my patience is non existent.

I will consider what you've said and attempt something similar, however I must say that should I feel myself going to a dangerous place I will close the door. It is safer than if I continue. In my mind it's not CIO it's a safety issue.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 27, 2016, 07:08:09 am
Lol cool you know better than me  ;)

Toddler sleep is hard as they are so opinionated and louder.

I understand if you feel it's getting out of control shut the door and take a breather xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on January 27, 2016, 14:17:39 pm
I know it is no consolation to you but my DD just pulled one last night too and was up from 2:20 till 4:00  :P Lots of coffee for me today <YAWN>

I was several times told that I am stupid to not let my DS CIO when we went through similar issues. Your DS sounds a lot like mine. I am not sure it has to do with sleep training early on. My DS was sleep trained at 4 months the BW way and was an excellent sleeper until these developmental things hit. He knew how to put himself to sleep but he was not ABLE to do it after he already slept several hours. His brain was so active and just kept firing away keeping him awake. I bet if you watch your DS play during the day you will find that he has the most lively imagination. I found actually that quickly responding to his call made it easier for him to go back to sleep. This is how I rationalized it: I believe that all kids do good if they can. He is awake because he cannot put himself back to sleep. He does not mean to aggravate me he just cannot do it and needs my help. I need to trust him that he only calls me when he needs me (regardless whether it is a physical or emotional need) and I want him to trust me that he can rely on me and I will be there for him when he needs me regardless if it is day or night.  I am not trying to downplay your struggle ... I exactly know where you are ... I was there several times. Being sleep deprived and anxious about the next night is terrible. Heck, I am sleep deprived right now and do not look forward tonight  :P

BUT I found with DS that my attitude was very important when I had to deal with NW. More drama = longer NW. Can you go to bed earlier? I know you have 3 kids so it must be super busy for you but try to catch up on sleep in the earlier part of the night. Can you switch bedrooms with your other kids so that your room is next to his? I know that being ripped out of sweet sleep is hard but it must be a killer to have to go up and down stairs too.  For easier logistics you might consider that. I also used to put a pillow and a thick comforter by DS's door and would lay down there when I was outside his door. After a while I learnt to relax and even snooze there for the 20 min he was quiet LOL I do the same with DD except it is in the room around the corner from her crib where she does not see me. To ease my brain and help with the anxiety I used to tell myself my major motto "This too shall pass". When he called for me I would go to him but did not engage just repeat my sleep phrase and say "it's night-night time, go to sleep". If he got out of bed I put him back and rubbed his back for a little while then said the sleep phrase and left. If he asked for water I did not speak just gave it to him then said the sleep phrase and left. There were nights when the NW was 3 hours long  ;D but the general average was 1.5 hours. And this went on for months. 

The last point I want to make is something some of the ladies might not agree with me but I found that all kids have a natural BT that is kind of set by their internal clock and falls into their sleep rhythm, just as they have a natural sleep need of x hours. I found that deviating form this natural sleep rhythm meant sleep disturbances for us. So it might be that your DS needs a later BT than 6:30. Maybe his internal clock tells him that he has slept x amount of hours already and now it is time to wake up. Only it is the middle of the night kwim? He has no problem falling asleep at that time because he is exhausted from broken sleep at night, but then the cycle starts again and he is up in the middle of the night. Maybe give this a little thought. I found my DS's natural sleep time is 8:30-ish which is considered late for most BW moms.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on January 27, 2016, 23:38:23 pm
Hugs Jo. That child nurse sounds like a right old meanie  >:( :P

I'd put a gate at his door and stay outside it. I wouldn't allow him to engage you in conversation e.g. about water, dummies or toys, and would just remain silent. You can warn him beforehand that there will be no talking at night. The most I would do is to shush him or occasionally say "sleepy time".

It certainly a very tough situation.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 28, 2016, 09:09:28 am
Thanks Ali. I don't have a gate at all and to be honest I think he could get past one even if I did have it... What else could I do. In a way she's right, he wants me and he's getting me but when there's ONLY me how do I stop this cycle
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: jessmum46 on January 28, 2016, 11:08:10 am
Just adding some extra hugs and just to clarify re the melatonin.  It's not a sedative per se, and doesn't need weaning - you can just stop it you feel it doesn't help.  As others have said it is a naturally occurring hormone in the brain which predominantly helps with sleep initiation, not maintenance (although some people do seem to find it helps with NWs) and will not help if there is a medical/discomfort issue or an issue of sleep training/habit.  Reading through I wonder if you should go all out with gradual withdrawal, actually.  I know you said he messed about when you slept in his room but as I read it that was only one night?  I wonder if the novelty might wear off if you are consistent - at least a week, preferably two - and he may settle down if he finds he's getting no interaction?  May get you some more rest as well?  Then you could work on getting out of the room?  Can I check - have you given pain meds to see if they help with molar pain?  For my kids those prolonged wakings, settling for 10-15 mins then waking again have always been discomfort-related so it makes sense to rule that out.  Also how's his asthma?  Allergies? 

I guess to answer the question you just asked about breaking the cycle, it may come down to you holding out longer than him  :-\ sounds like his tantrums overnight are kind of holding you to ransom and I wonder if you may need to resolve to tough it out a bit more?  Not ignoring him/CIO but holding firm to 'the rules' and doing so for long enough, consistently enough that he gets the message.  Hard I know, not over-simplifying or saying it is easy, but just that these LOs are not stupid and will push and push us where we are weakest.  And at night we all know our resolve is weakest....

For yourself I hope I'm not overstepping the line by saying it sounds like you are super-stressed right now and I wonder whether you need to reach out for some help for you too?  We all go through periods of rough sleep with our LOs but if your own batteries are fully charged, it makes it easier to handle :-* ((hugs))
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 28, 2016, 12:57:04 pm
ITA with what Katherine says ^^^^

My instinct here is for you to stay in his room with him for a few nights and then GW from there. Sitting outside shushing him might be better, but, frankly, you'll be more comfortable and stand a chance of being rested if you're lying down on the floor.  I would not want to be sitting on the stairs in the middle of the night.  Maybe you have the option of camping in the hallway?   I would make sure not to be in the same bed (somehow I think you were when you did it before, but I might be wrong).  I would preface the whole thing with a 'big chat' a few times during the day to lay down the law - no talking, no messing, I will be there for you but you must do your bit, your water is here, your dummy is there, whatever.  His behaviour really sounds like he needs reassurance, and I wonder if there's any read across into the daytime. Sometimes doing things a bit differently in the day can make a big difference.

My LO2 can get into an incredibly frustrating loop of BT nonsense so I generally just don't engage with the substance, in the nicest way possible, it is better for me keeping my cool, otherwise I just start arguing back and we all know who wins arguments with 3 yos (the 3 yos!).  I just repeat whatever sleepy phrase ('it's the middle of the night', 'it's time to sleep') and keep interaction minimal.

I'm sad that mean old nurse is out there dishing out such harsh advice.  My LO1 had his dummy til well past 3.5 yo!

hugs Jo hope you can recharge your batteries somehow.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 28, 2016, 18:26:44 pm
I do feel a gradual withdrawal would be best I just know that I have no patience or anything left in me at the moment due to three months of no sleep and I know I wouldn't last long. I've reached out this week for help but it seems friends and family are not wanting to help in any other sense than just giving me well meaning but in a sense useless repetitive advice that I've already tried. He starts a new preschool on Monday, my eldest goes back to school for the new year on Tuesday and I'm starting my course in two weeks. So some big changes happening and I need my sleep.
I think if I do the GW I need to be focused enough and not at the end of my tether to do it. So I will continue alternating the phenergan and melatonin a short while longer to get myself rested (so far two nights of good sleep with it) last week when he was sleeping I started to feel more myself after 5 days even tho it wasn't 100%, I think after two weeks of good sleep I can take him off the melatonin, prepare myself for the long haul and get stuck into it. At the moment if I do it then it will fail as I am pretty empty and life is about to get full on for short while.

I can put a mattress on the floor in his room, that's not a problem. So when I start this what do I do? I need specifics.
I sleep on the floor, if he wakes what do I do? Just say the phrase? And if he doesn't settle what then? I can't pay him as he loves it and sometimes demands it, he will roll over onto his tummy and say "my back mum, my back" and gets into a tantrum if I say no so I hardly ever do it.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: jessmum46 on January 29, 2016, 07:54:30 am
You have to be prepared for tantrums, I think  :-\ realistically with a toddler this is unlikely to get fixed without. 

I would explain the rules to him in the daytime.  "Mummy will stay in your room and I will be sleeping on the floor.  If you wake up in the night, you need to find your dummy and go back to sleep (does he have a light/torch to be able to do this?) Your drink is *here* if you need it.  We all need a good sleep so we can have lots of energy to play together in the morning."  Or words to that effect.  Then if he has trouble settling/wakes at night you continue to lie on the mattress, face away, don't engage other than to say get your dummy and go to sleep, it's night time.  Or similar.  If he has a tantrum, fine, let him have a tantrum.  I don't mean to sound harsh but if you avoid doing something (reading your post this seems to be saying 'no' to his demands) because he might have a tantrum, it's that thing you probably need to look at changing :-* :-*. He will sleep, eventually, he can't stay awake forever ;) but you'll need to resolve to out-last him.

Completely get you need to be in the right mental/energy space to do it though - this isn't going to be an easy fix in one night and I wouldn't be being fair to you I don't think if I suggested otherwise.  Very happy to support you to keep going when you are ready to start x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 29, 2016, 08:32:55 am
Ok cool thanks, we've actually lost the dummy so it's what we are dealing with tonight. He told me he threw it and I said well because you threw I cannot find it but you have your Neichi (his cuddly) and he will keep you safe and give you big cuddles tonight because dummy is lost.
It took about half an hour of tantrums but he finally went to sleep. He's woken again and is totally disorientated and crying. I just kept telling him dummy is lost and Neichi is here, cuddle Neichi. I said our bedtime phrase of "goodnight, I love you, I'll see you in the morning" and he repeated it back to me. I left and he was quiet for a few mins and crying out again.

It feels really unfair now to add this to the whole thing right??
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 29, 2016, 09:44:23 am
I just did the know your toddler quiz and he's come out as touchy spirited if that helps
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: jessmum46 on January 29, 2016, 10:05:10 am
I guess in a way it may be kinder overall to deal with all the things you 'don't want' so to speak at once rather than having to do everything again a second time?  You do know him best though :-* I would do as you have been and offer lots of reassurance, and I'd probably go a bit overboard on the praise of how well he's doing, isn't he so grown up (or whatever you think would appeal to him) in the daytime and try to make him see the dummy going as a positive :)  I know this was perhaps unplanned but maybe the 'dummy fairy' could visit and bring a little something in exchange for the dummies?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 29, 2016, 10:13:47 am
We did get rid of the dummy a few months ago but after three weeks he had a near drowning incident which kicked all this off and the dummy came back because he was hysterical at night and I felt it was the right thing to do at the time so I know he can sleep without it.

When he got into bed tonight he looked at his sticker chart and said "aaaaaaaall night long" because I've been praising him when he sleeps all night long without getting up so it must be sticking in his head a little.
I will continue tonight as I have been. Perhaps the issue is actually the dummy and maybe this will resolve it? Who knows! I'll take it one night at a time!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: jessmum46 on January 29, 2016, 10:14:59 am
One night at a time is all any of us can do :)  Hope it's a good one x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on January 29, 2016, 10:38:54 am
Just catching up, hope the night is a good one. Stick with it, might be a tough couple of nights but I'm sure he will get it  :) xx
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on January 29, 2016, 12:05:12 pm
FX for you guys Jo.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 29, 2016, 18:21:02 pm
It wasn't too bad actually. He woke a couple times but I didn't go to him every time, just one time when he called out "help me mum" and it was his blankets were completely off him, so I sorted them out. He didn't resettle so I stood at his door and with a slightly firm voice I said "you are fine, go back to sleep, goodnight" and he did.  Was actually easier than I thought it was going to be. Perhaps because he's taken the melatonin that made him a bit more relaxed so it wouldn't have bothered him too much to not have the dummy
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: jessmum46 on January 30, 2016, 10:45:54 am
That's great :) hopefully the start of good things to come x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on January 30, 2016, 12:34:50 pm
Sounds like you're doing really well.

he's come out as touchy spirited
With my touchy spirited, it was important to be firm as well.  Any hint of wavering and we were into the madness. But being gentle was also important, shouting, leaving him alone, that sort of thing, just made him wound him up. Difficult to balance to strike and *of course* I didn't always manage it. So yes keep channeling that firm but warm voice.  ::)  and tons of physical contact during the day was (still is) very important to him feeling grounded.

he had a near drowning incident
oh the poor love!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on January 30, 2016, 17:49:03 pm
Well he's sick with a cold now! Lol it does not rain but it pours! He still slept all night even tho he has no dummy and was coughing, he just woke really early but to me that's not a real issue.
Guess we will just see the cold through for now
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on January 30, 2016, 19:03:20 pm
Aww poor boy! Lots of healthy vibes for a quick recovery from the cold xx.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on February 04, 2016, 13:34:24 pm
I was just thinking about you ... how are things going?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 04, 2016, 17:35:07 pm
His cold was only a minor one, lasted about a day and a half. We are still on the melatonin so the wakings are minimal. And now he's also waking earlier.. Anywhere from 5:30am
I've dropped the nap completely because it just meant a late night and a 9.5-10 hour one as well. Now we are getting about 11 hours without it. One or two wakings. So in overall it's better but I know he needs more sleep, I can tell he does, he's exhausted by evening. I'm trying set bedtimes of 6:30pm. He's waking at 5:30am so without a nap that's a very lon day for him.
He's always been slightly HSN, if he missed his usual 45 min nap he would do up to 15 hour nights and right up until recently, just before all this horrible sleep business kicked up.
I'm trying to see it in a good light, that at least we aren't having nights like before but still like I said I know it's not enough for him...
We still have the occasional 1.5-2 hour wake up and then he's still up early, so he did that the other night, only had 10 hours night sleep. I figured he would make it up the next night like he usually used to do but no he didn't. Surely he's exhausted? But I can't seem to make him sleep more. And I'm worried that once I stop the melatonin he wil just revert? I'm trying to get his body to sync with routine times as I feel that will work for him
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 04, 2016, 17:38:52 pm
Oh and also the dummy is completely gone. He threw it across the room and "lost it" I told him that it was lost after he threw it and for some reason because he was the cause of this he accepted it straight away and has only asked for it twice and I just spas "remember you threw dummy and it got lost" and he's fine with it. So that's eliminated one prop
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on February 04, 2016, 21:15:26 pm
WOW I think you have come a long way. Do you feel better now with more sleep for yourself?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 05, 2016, 01:40:19 am
Yes definatley much better!! I'll be taking him off the melatonin in a couple of days, guess we will see how he goes after that...
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on February 08, 2016, 22:10:09 pm
Jo, I found both of mine took a good few weeks, if not a month, to get their night up to what they really needed after we dropped the nap. Hang in there.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 09, 2016, 21:36:26 pm
Thanks Ali. Tried no melatonin last night, bedtime was 7pm, had one NW and up at 6am so it's tons better but I'm hoping he's really gonna get his full 12 hours back at night soon cos he needs it!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on February 09, 2016, 21:44:03 pm
Yay!! Such progress, well done mama :)
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on February 10, 2016, 01:43:58 am
Great progress and I bet the extra sleep is doing you the world of good x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on February 10, 2016, 22:31:12 pm
A positive step in the right direction
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on February 11, 2016, 15:14:33 pm
YAY I think it's huge that he did so well without the melatonin.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 11, 2016, 19:08:01 pm
Little question tho. He still has one wake up. It's always before midnight and he's always extremely upset and it takes a lot to calm him down. Once I do tho he goes right back to sleep. If he was a baby I would say that's OT, am I right in thinking it still is? With his 11 hour nights and no naps and he has very active full on days, could it still be that? If he slept longer at night I think this would def help but he needs to stretch it out and he just won't. If I give him even a 15 mins nap in the day his night gets even shorter. He's not LSN at all and never has been. Is there something else I can do to help him or just ride it out?
We have a very set bedtime routine and he's sufficiently wound down and relaxed for sleep most nights (if his brothers haven't rarked him up beforehand)
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: athenasmom on February 11, 2016, 19:32:40 pm
Can it be night terrors?
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on February 11, 2016, 20:27:35 pm
For us it would prob be OT especially if settles and back to sleep. We just had to ride it out and DS got more used to a longer day etc x
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Jo* on February 11, 2016, 22:15:27 pm
I did wonder about night terrors but my eldest has those and these are different because most of the time he will start segueing with me saying no, when I say time to go back to sleep etc whereas my eldest wouldn't even comprehend I was there and would just fight any form of touch.
I think it's prob OT, will try to keep riding it out!
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: weaver on February 12, 2016, 18:25:03 pm
I think OT.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: *Ali* on February 16, 2016, 00:04:54 am
I'd say ride it out.
Title: Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
Post by: Haribo2012 on February 16, 2016, 08:30:02 am
How's it going?