BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: choc on January 19, 2016, 07:59:27 am
-
So I've just got my naps sorted with help from the naps board. Now I have night wakings. Well we always had nws from 5am onwards but now we have 3am happy babbling which goes on for a quite a while until he starts getting cross. Then I move him back into a more comfortable position and give him the dummy. He seems to drop off but then starts again 20 mins later. This continues til he wakes at 4. 30 crying for a bottle so I feed him as usual. And then we have the usual nws til half 6 when suddenly he wants to sleep but we have to be up at 7am.
This is how the last 2 days have looked.
Sunday
Wu 6.50
E 7.30
S 8.45
Wu 10.15
E 11.30
S 1 (lots or resetting at 55min/1hr mark)
Wu 3.30
E 3.30
S 5.15 but only for about 10mins
Bt 7pm
Wu 12am happy babbling til 12.30 when I gave dummy.
Wu 3am on and off happy til feeding at 4.30.
Monday
Wu 7.20
E 7.30
S 9.00
Wu 11.00
E 11.30
S 1. 00 in pushchair out and about
Wu 1.30
S 3.15 on school run
Wu 3.45
Refused to sleep in car at 5.30 on way back from eldests swimming lessons.
S Bt 6.45
Wu 8pm (OT screaming)
Wu 3am happy babbling on and off til feeding at 4.30.
4.30ish has been his feed time for a while now. I don't think he's hungry at 3am he is just chatting and playing away.
I know that was a bad afternoon but couldn't be helped due to errands and swimming lessons.
-
So sorry for the late reply, things have been rather hectic, how's it going now?
Have these NW's started since the naps lengthened?
What I do notice is that in the later part of your day he only got 10mins sleep between 3.30-7pm, that's quite a long A really. Same with Monday. I wonder if OT is at work here. Have you managed to get a decent CN out of him the last day or so? xx
-
Hi, yes those last 2 days were bad for catnaps! Mondays always are because of his brothers swimming lessons. Last 2 days we have had a catnap of 45 and one of 30. The nws didn't start exactly as naps lengthened.
The last 2 nights he has gone through without a feed! Tuesday night he didn't wake at all til 5am for his dummy and that was it til 7am. Wednesday night he woke 3am for his happy babble. I left him to it til he got grumpy, gave the dummy and back to sleep til 6.30am. So not too bad. I am always worrying that I'm giving him too much sleep. The 4 hour easy of 2x2hr naps and 1 catnap, we could achieve but I'm scared to incase it's too much sleep. If I just let him have 1hr 30 naps then it throws the day off as we work on 7 til 7 day. The end of the day never works out right. I'm scared of early bedtime too! I'd rather have a little OT I think. Though that's probably completely wrong way to think!
-
There never seems enough hours in the day does there?! I definitely think you need that longer CN, but maybe if you have one nap of 2hrs, one of 1.5 and a decent CN of 30mins or more then maybe that'll work out better for the time being? Remember he will start to increase his A times soon, so the day will naturally fall better.. that is until the 3-2 of course ;).
If anything I'd rather OT at the beginning of the day if you can, so stretch that first A. I'd much rather resettle a nap from OT than have OT nw's like you have been doing. WDYT? xx
-
OK that's a plan I've been wondering about actually. We had awful ot at bedtime tonight, struggled to get him to take his bottle and then he zonked.
Today was this
Wu 7am
S 9 til 10.30
S 12.30 til 2.30
S 4.45 til 5.15
BT 7
I know the a times before and after catnap are all wrong. Also I struggle to get a longer first a time as he falls asleep on school run. But if I push out the next a time it will push everything later and then a less ot evening. Is that what you mean?
Can the a time before the catnap be a full one/longer one?
So tomorrow I could try this
Wu 7am
S 9.15( if I can stop him dropping off in the pram earlier) til 10.45
S 1pm til 3pm I have to leave for school at 3 so would have to wake a few minutes earlier.
S 5.15 til 5.45
BT 7pm
What do you think? I don't want him to sleep too close to bed time but the current time isn't working as he is a state after bath .
-
I think we can just try it and see. If we can't stretch the first one and frankly that does look good for his age, we could look at pushing the next one like you said. You could actually bring the CN slightly earlier and let him sleep up to an hour or even 45mins and I thnk that might help you get to the 7pm BT. Remember the A time will decrease after a shorter nap, but if the nap is longer than 30mins, e might just make it? wdyt?
Having a longer CN shouldn't interfere with BT too much really as w've not got enough hours int he day to work with yet. I reckon this will only be in place a matter of weeks before he's stretching his A time and you can knock a bit off the CN in exchange for longer A's earlier int he day xx
-
What would be the latest you would let him sleep for the catnap in order to keep 7pm bedtime?
Last night we had happy chatting at 3.30 for 20 mins til he got grumpy and I gave dummy. 4.30 same again. 5.45 same again.
-
Ahh that's yucky >:(.
For a 7pm BT, I would allow maybe 1.5hrs after a 45mins nap and maybe as short as an hour after a 30mins nap? We can only give it a go and see what works. Mine always preferred a shorter A to BT. I knew it at that age, forgot for a while then remembered after someone pointed out to me on here when we were having issues!
What we do know is that 1hr 45mins is too much after a 30mins CN so we can just work backwards from there xx
-
Thanks Kelly. He went to bed without being OT for the first time in ages yesterday but we still had lots of babbling night wakings. Ill see how it goes for the next couple of nights. I'm experimenting with 2x2hrs and a 30 min catnap today.
-
Kepp me posted ok? It may take a few days, then we can reassess if needs be xx
-
Thanks will do! Today ended up being 1x2hr, 1x1hr30 and 45min. With 1hr 15 min to bt. Let's see what tonight brings!
-
So he slept through last night! Let's hope it wasn't a one off!
-
Yay!! ;D Let's keep that short A to BT then! whatever else happens during the day, just try and keep that one short after the CN and don't be too tempted to push it! xx
-
Ok, thanks for the advice! We have done the same again tonight although he got the hiccups after his bottle so it took longer for him to drop off. And tomorrow is the dreaded swimming lesson day where it all goes wrong! I will do my best to keep it short!
-
So he was up every hour and a half last night! How can it be so different. Both days were pretty much the same and the same catnap etc. We were resettling at 9.30, 10, 11.30, 1.30, 3, 5.30, 6, 6.30. Then woke him at 7.30.
-
Should say that they weren't the long babbling wakings we were having. Just quick resettles.
-
Well, that's great they're not long-drawn out ones! I don't want to tweak anything just yet in case last night was a one off. We all have unsettled nights here and there don't we?
Waking often tends to signal discomfort, so i'd keep an eye on that too. Early teething perhaps? Or wind? Anyhoo, hope today goes ok with the swimming lesson. Hopefully as it's just an odd day that's thrown out, fx it won't be too bad for you xx
-
Thanks Kelly, fingers crossed!
-
Hi, I'm back! The long night wakings are still happening. They are usually at about 3.45 for 45 mins to an hour but last night was 1.30pm. Then he is awake again around 6ish on and off til we get him up at 7am. The problem is my easy is all over the map at the moment so I don't know if you will be able to help me?
We are aiming for this
Wu 7am
S 10 til 12
S 3 til 4.00/4.30 (not sure which would be best for a 7pm Bt)
However things keep popping up to ruin it eg ds1 doctors appointments etc.
I can post the last few days though they are wildly different.
25th march
Wu?
S 10 to 11.30
S 1 to 1.30 in car had appointment for ds1
S 4 to 5.15 woke him up. Put down at 3.
Bt 7
Wu 4am - 4.45
Wu 6.30
26th march
Wu 6.30
S 10 to 12
S 3.40 to 4.40 woke him up. Put down at 3
Bt 7
Wu 3.45 - ?
Wu 6 to 6.45
Wu 7.30
28th
Wu 7.20
S 10.15 to 10.55 (dh home and so caused os I think)
S 2 to 4
Bt 7 some ot noises. Possibly likes shorter A to bed?
Wu 1.30 - 2.30
Wu 5.50 I think
I only go to him if he cries which is usually because he has got himself trapped in the bars or corner of the cot etc. No dummy either. He does self settle in the end. I often give paracetamol just in case and sometimes he seems to drop off 15 mins later.
Any ideas?
-
Hi there, sounds like you have a good feel for his A times during the day, some nice naps there :) Sorry to hear nights are still a pain :-\ My gut feeling is that you may have had some UT going on during those first two days you posted above, perhaps you could stretch that second A more after a nice long first nap? But then the last day above you probably saw some OT, due to that short morning nap - even though he took a good pm nap, you may be right that he couldn't handle the long A to BT, perhaps go for EBT another time if that happens again? When did he drop his last CN? You may find that squeezing one in could help in days like that, even if APOP'd - could help you accrue sufficient A time to avoid UT but keep the A to BT short to avoid OT?
-
Hi, thanks for the reply. I will try a longer 2nd A time tomorrow if I get another good morning nap. Would you try 15mins more?
Today I did squeeze in a catnap, he dropped it about 3 weeks ago. Today was very annoying
Wu 5.50 ish and dozed on and off til 7, I think.
S 10 til 11.05 as woken by an alarm! I was mad!
S 1.50 to 3.10 I had to wake him for the school run.
S 5.15 to 5.45 I was worried about the long A to bed so squeezed this in. I was worried I'd done the wrong thing, what do you think?
Bt 7.15 but still a few noises on the monitor in the first hour, could he still be OT?
So do you think the nws are OT or ut?
-
Ok well we had a virtual sttn! He definitely woke around 2 or 3 am but can only have been for a few mins! Then awake at 6. 30! So was that because of the shorter A time to bed do you think? Today I have to do a school run at 3 which throws the day out a bit. It could be this
Wu 7
S 10 to 12
S 3.30 to?
I'll probably get an OT 30 min nap at 3.30 due to the long unavoidable A. If I don't, when should I let him sleep til for a 7pm Bt?
OR should I try to recreate something more like yesterday? I don't really want to go back to the catnap though.
-
So we got the short OT nap I expected. 3.45 to 4.15/20. Early bedtime here I think. Bet we dont get another sttn.
Tomorrow should be able to do
Wu 7
S 10 to 12
S 3.15 to? Which is a 15 min A time increase. Is that OK do you think?
-
Hey there, sorry I'm not often on here until the evening, so only just seen your updates. Yay for the sttn :D Looks like you did the right thing there, despite the really annoying start to the day ;) Yes I wouldn't be afraid to hang on to that CN a little longer - not necessarily every day, but if naps weren't so good for whatever reason, it really can help to avoid OT from a long A to BT, but still get enough A into him to be able to sleep well at night, iyswim? During the 3-2 I remember some 10min CNs, just to get the extra A time in before BT, you may find that can help for you too, occasionally.
It's hard with school runs, isn't it? But you don't have to do it every day, is that right? Is he sleeping a consistent 2h morning nap off a 3h A time, then? By all means try the second nap at 3h15mins, I see you tried for 3h on 26th but perhaps he was UT and so didn't settle. So a 15min push would be a good place to start, see what happens for a few days and then push again if necessary. Would it work for you to move 'official' WU to 7:15am, perhaps, then shift the naps 15mins too so that he can have his pm nap at 3:30 without being OT? I can't decide what I think about his A to BT, that day when he had 3h then after a 2h nap, he'd also had a disturbed, short am nap, so I wondered if he might have had some OT left over from that?? I guess I'd try that 3h 15min second A time for a few days and just see what happens, note it down and that gives us a starting place, right?
-
Thanks for the reply.
Yes he seems to be fairly consistent with the 2hrs am. Nap after 3hr A time. Sometimes A is longer but he is still in the cot in the dark.
I have been thinking myself that a 7.15 wu in the morning would help, but he doesn't ever seem to get there! He usually wakes before 7 and dozes on and off till 7.
I do not have to do the school run now for a couple of weeks as it is the school holidays, but one week we are actually away on holiday so I'm sure routine will go out the window.
I will start the school run again on 19th April and will have to do it everyday. So in my head I'm thinking I've got til then to get him on a routine with a 3.30+ pm nap.
I don't know how to get rid of the long night wakings though. He has had a 2hr20 min A to bedtime on 40 min nap today which I know is rubbish but was the best I could do under today's circumstances. So we'll see how tonight goes.
Tomorrow I'm really hoping for a better day with no school run and a shorter A to bed, hoping pm nap will be 3.15 to maybe 4.45?!
-
Yeah sorry that's why I said 'official' WU ;) We did much the same with letting ours lie happily until whatever time we'd decided to get them up, but you could just shift that time to 7:15 and shift the rest of the day accordingly, as you would for a clock change, may get some OT for a few days but it's only a small shift so hopefully wouldn't take long to become the new normal?
Just remember there's hope - he pulled a great night recently, right? :) :-* Did you try for a CN after that 40min nap? Could you use a sling or something to get one? I really did find that CN helpful during this phase, it doesn't even have to be long, but it does then add another A time but also help to prevent that build up of OT before BT, since they're a bit more rested. I think you need to allow for around 9.5-10h A time in total, counting any time awake in the cot before getting up in the morning at about half value (eg he wakes at 6 and you get him up 7 - consider that as about 30mins A time). So if you can't get that by BT without a long A time, try for a CN - wdyt?
-
I could try to wait til 7.15 but to be honest it's a struggle keeping him in bed til 7! He has usually had enough by then so that's when we get him up but I would love 7.15 so I'll see if we can do it tomorrow.
I didn't try for a cn today because the 40 mins nap ended at about 4.20pm and I didn't think I could fit one in. Bedtime would have been 8pm +.
If he needs 9hr30 to 10hr A time a day, how does that work with 3hr ish A times? That makes for a long day doesn't it? What would that look like in EASY? Even on a good nap day I would need a cn to get that sort of Atime. Or have I got this all wrong?!
-
So we had 2 good night's in a row, here are the easys for those days
29th
Wu 5.50
S 10 to 11.10 alarm woke him up
S 2 to 3.10 woke for school run
S 5.15 to 5.45 thought I'd try a cn and see
Bt 7.15 making ot noises early evening
Slept through to 6.30 then dozed on and off til 7!!
30th
Wu 6.30/7
S 10 to 12
S 3.40 to 4.20 (put down at 3.30 due to school run)
Bt 6.40
Slept through with a couple of short wu that didn't need resettling!
Wu 6.45
Then last night was really bad after this day
31st
Wu 6.45
S 10 to 11.30
S 2.35 to 3.20
S put down at 4.50 but didn't sleep
Bt 6.50
Wu 3.30 on and off for the rest of the night
I'm thinking OT? I tried for a catnap for 45 mins but he wasn't having it, then hubby got held up at work which made it hard for me to do an earlier Bt. I did the best I could.
-
Hey sorry couldn't get on yesterday to reply. Yk, I think you're both doing pretty well really :) I mean, those were two good nights, and you know why last night didn't work out so well, frustrating, but all part of this phase :-\ of course if you could have done EBT that might have worked out better but there's not much we can do about traffic, after all ::)
Yeah about the A time thing - I just kind of plucked 9.5-10h out on the basis of one of those days you'd posted where things worked out nicely for the night. Actually now I see the 30th too, that was more like 9h, which of course works nicely for 3x 3h A times :) I suppose I'm encouraging you to look back and see how much sleep he tends to need overall - for some LOs, 15h sleep in 24h (ie 9h total A time) is unrealistic, they don't need quite so much, and if yours is one of those, he'll either need slightly longer A times, or a CN (to fit another A time into the day) or he'll make up for it by waking a bit early and playing a bit before you get him up, iyswim?
-
Ok, that makes sense, I understand now thanks! So you agree it was an OT nw last night then? I am really hoping for better today but afternoons are so hard. Ds1 had a friend over to play after school so I am fully expecting a short nap again due to over stimulation. I couldn't leave them unsupervised for too long to do a good wind down and he took more than 10 mins to drop off. We will see!
Thanks for your continued support.
-
Ah I know you probably won't get this in time but I'll try anyway! So I'm finally getting a decent afternoon nap, he has been asleep for an hour and it is 4.35pm. I don't know what i'm doing with this it hasn't ever happened before a good morning and afternoon nap! What time do I let him sleep til and what time should Bt be? Last time he had a decent afternoon nap 2 til 4 he'd had a bad morning nap and went to bed at 7. We had a bad night. What should I do?!
-
Yes I think 3.5h A after a 45 min nap was probably a bit much, as you said, that wasn't what you were aiming for anyway but can't be helped!
Yeah sorry too late for you again, tied up with dinner and bed myself! So... What happened? I wonder if it would help you to consider a day like today as an experiment, so you just decide on your plan and see what happens, then whatever happens with the night, you have learnt either what not to do next time, or if you're very lucky you may just hit on something that works :) I just say that as I find it helps me to take that approach, but of course it's harder to take that step back when you're sleep deprived and just desperate for a few good nights :-*
-
I ended up waking him at 4.45 after 1hr15min nap and bt was 7.15. If I get another bad night it must be ut, it surely can't be ot on a day like this
Wu out of cot at 6.45
S 10 to 12
S 3.25/30 to 4.45 put down at 3.15 buy os I think.
Bt 7.15
Looking at it now I am scared of ut. But I do think he prefers a shorter A to bed.
If tonight is bad tomorrow I will shoot for
S 10 to 12
S 3.15 to 4.15
Bt 7
-
Yeah could work if tonight is really bad to help him catch up - but it seems he's done some decent pm naps and nights after a 3.5h second A, right?
-
I once got a 1 hour nap and once got a 40 min nap. Often I was getting 30 mins but that was before I started noting everything down above.
Do you think I should try 3hr 30 instead of 3hr15 then? And how long would you let him sleep and what Bt?
The 26th was similar to today but a pretty bad night.
-
Yeah ok maybe 3h 15 is safer then, I think that's what we said before? As for how long etc... Well personally I'd be tempted to see what happens if I just let him sleep, but I think you've already been there and it wasn't pretty, right? Well, an hour seems to be what he's often done, so yes why not just stick with that as a first guess - we really won't know until you try :-*
-
I nearly let him sleep as long as he wanted this afternoon but I got the fear and I was scared of bedtime getting too late. We don't like to do much later than 7 as his big brother goes down at 7.30.
-
Haha yes I know what you mean :-* And I understand about not wanting BT to get too close to DS1's BT, I also like to have DD fully settled before DS goes down there (adjacent rooms). Although we have had BTs closer in the past, makes a big difference whether DH is there at BT or not!
-
Yes their routines coincide nicely at the moment.
Do you think today looked Ok or ut for Bt?
-
So it wasn't too bad last night but not as good as we had the other day. He woke at 2.30 til 3am then from 6ish on and off til 7.
The other week we had it so he slept through til 5 before waking but I can't find my notes for those days. So I'm not sure why he has started waking so early.
Today he has done
S 10 til 11.30 instead of 12.
I will put down at 2.45 and go from there.
-
Yeah could have been a little UT, but not really so bad IMO, bear in mind there could also be non routine reasons for MOTN wakings, eg teething or some other discomfort. Sorry I can't remember if we've discussed solids yet? Don't forget if you're introducing new foods, or if he's starting to take larger amounts, it can affect his sleep as his digestive system gets used to it all.
Hope today was ok?
-
We are blw so although he is eating it's not huge amounts.
Today was
S 10 to 11.30
S 2.40 to 4
Bt 7
Fingers crossed!
-
Indeed :)
-
I'm feeling really down about this now. 1hr30 night waking then awake at 5.45 and didn't go back to sleep. I've been doing this since January, he's had different routines, it can't have been teeth that whole time. Why is he doing this?
-
Could the 10 to 12 nap be anything to do with it?
-
Trimbler's busy for a few days so I'm here to help :)
Could the 10 to 12 nap be anything to do with it?
Do you think it's too long?
-
It's what he usually naturally sleeps, and I need it really to get me to the next nap time after school run. I just read that long morning naps can cause problems, although it's always at least 3hrs from wake up so kind of thought that would be OK?
Yesterday we were out all day and so he only had 2 30 min naps and a 50 min nap. Then last night he slept until 5.30am before waking. Although he hasn't managed to go back to sleep. So that was better night on less day sleep. Is that something I need to consider?
-
Oh dear just wrote a long reply and deleted it - I'd confused myself! (((Hugs))) it can be so frustrating, can't it? Did he have his usual 7om BT last night? I do wonder whether he kind of crashed out and did a slightly short OT night - I'm guessing he had around 12.5h total sleep? I still suspect he needs around 14.5h, just based on those days with the good nights. Would you mind posting the last few days, I know you've been through them all already but I'm struggling to match it all up together so if you could lay it out as before then perhaps it'll make something a bit clearer? I do wonder whether, that night when he had the 1.5h waking, he'd been a little more refreshed after his slightly better night previously, and that's why he only napped 1.5h in the morning, but then had around the same in the afternoon which ended up giving him a bit too much daytime sleep, given that he'd had a slightly better night?? Perhaps it might be worth starting to push that first A time a little now? The trouble with long morning naps is when they use them to catch up on sleep from a poor night, but as I think Lily already said, if the A time is long enough then that shouldn't happen. But I'm thinking, if he does better on a long morning nap, then as you head towards the 2-1 (a long process, as you probably remember from ds1!), you'll be wanting to push that first A more than the others. Pushing that A out would then help with getting to the second nap after the school run (provided of course that he still does a long first nap), and he wouldn't need a long A to BT. Maybe he's already telling you he wants a longer first A, with those EWs? What do you think? A new direction, perhaps?
-
Funny you should say that as I added 15 mins to his A time this morning! We got a 30min otot wake up but managed to resettle him so think I will stick with it for a few days. I will post all the logs that I have, it's pretty long!
25th march
Wu?
S 10 to 11.30
S 1 to 1.30 in car
S 4 to 5.15 woke him up. Put down at 3.
Bt 7
Wu 4am - 4.45
Wu 6.30
26th march
Wu 6.30 porridge
S 10 to 12
S 3.40 to 4.40 woke him up. Put down at 3
Bt 7
Wu 3.45 - ?
Wu 6 to 6.45
Wu 7.30
28th
Wu 7.20 porridge
S 10.15 to 10.55
S 2 to 4
Bt 7 some ot noises. Possibly likes shorter A to bed?
Wu 1.30 - 2.30
Wu 5.50 I think
29th
Wu 5.50
S 10 to 11.10 alarm woke him up
S 2 to 3.10 woke for school run
S 5.15 to 5.45 thought I'd try a cn and see
Bt 7.15 making ot noises early evening
Slept through to 6.30 then dozed on and off til 7!!
30th
Wu 6.30/7
S 10 to 12
S 3.40 to 4.20 (put down at 3.30 due to school run)
Bt 6.40
Slept through
Wu 6.45
31st
Wu 6.45
S 10 to 11.30
S 2.35 to 3.20
S put down at 4.50 but didn't sleep
Bt 6.50
Wu 3.30 on and off for the rest of the night
1st
Got him up at 6.45
S 10 to 12
S 3.25/3.30 to 4.45 i woke him
Bt 7.15 ish
Wu 2.30 to 3
Wu 5.50 on and off til 7.05
2nd
Wu 7.05
S 10 to 11.30
S 2. 40 to 4
Bt 7
Wu 4.45 poo then cried when put back, dummy, slept til 7.15
3rd
Wu 7.15
S 10.15 to 12.15
S 3.15 to 3.45 (out)
Bt 7
Wu 3 to 4.15
Wu 6
Wu 7
4th
Wu 7
S 10 to 10.45
S 1.30 to 2
S 4.20 to 5.10
Bt 7
Wu 5.30 on and off til 7. 15
5th
Wu 7.15
S 10. 25 to 12.20
S 3.35 to 4.12
Bt 6.40
-
I tried to work out some patterns and it seems he has his best nights with 3hr or slightly less A time, 9 to 10 hour Atime and around 2hr30 A time to bed. Do you see the same? This is probably a really stupid question but when you are working out total sleep in 24 hours do you count the night before the day or the night after? Hope that makes sense. And I never know what to count as his total night sleep due to his wakings and his dozing on and off in the early morning.
-
It may just be a matter of perspective but reading through that I'd say that things don't look too bad. It's quite similar to what my DS did at that age (usually one 30-60 min NW - I didn't stay with him the whole time, I just fed and left him chatting - and a shorter NW or unsettled towards morning). As he got older, he consistently only woke once and then started STTN most nights on his own.
-
We had a sttn! After this day
5th
Wu 7.15
S 10. 25 to 12.20
S 3.35 to 4.12
Bt 6.50
I tried to push for 3hr15 first A again this morning and got a 1hr30 nap instead of 2hr. He did the same last time he had a good night but that was on 3hr A. Then I did 3hr15 for the 2nd A which has been going well, but today he took 35 min to go to sleep and it was a real struggle. Is that because he had 1hr30 not 2hr do you think? Gutted I couldn't replicate yesterday but will still do my best to get the total A and S times for the day right and a shorter A to bed.
-
Yay :D hope you managed to sttn too ;) So you know he can do it, right, hopefully you'll just see more and more of those sorts of nights, as his needs change less rapidly and you catch up with what they are. Excepting the inevitable illness/teething etc... It does feel to me that you're getting a clearer picture of what he needs now. Some LOs don't seem to mind whether they have 1.5h or a 2h nap, they need the same A afterwards, but mine would definitely notice the difference and would need the A reduced after a shorter nap. You could try holding that first nap at around the same time for the next few days, see what happens. When did he actually wake this morning? Are you trying to push WU to 7:15am now or was that just yesterday?
-
That was just yesterday. I haven't pushed to 7.15 really yet as it's pretty hard and also on a 3hr15 first A, 2 hour nap, 3hr15 2nd A, gets me to 3.30pm for a nap after school run so I haven't really needed to push to 7.15 yet.
Today he woke at 6.30 and was quiet on and off til 6.50 when he started to cry so I got him up as he had done so well. Actually I always call it a 3hr or 3hr15 first A but really it was more of a set nap at 10am which I am now trying at 10.15. I just got frustrated trying to calculate A time with all the on off dozing before 7am. The set nap at 10 was working great though. Hopefully 10.15am will start to work well soon.
My new worry is that I will loose the 2hr morning nap if nights get better, then I am back to square one with naps not fitting in with the school run. 1hr30 nap doesn't get me there! Especially if he needs his A reduced after it. Arhhh if it's not 1 thing it's another! Anyway hopefully I'm worrying prematurely and it won't happen.
-
Sttn til 6.15 which was great, but then 1hr30 morning nap again! Arhhh that sets me back so far when we were so close to getting the naps right for school run, which starts the week after next.
-
We did set morning naps too, especially with DD due to school run for DS, she couldn't go down any earlier even if we'd wanted to. Great to hear about another sttn :D Yk, I really think you're getting there with knowing what to aim for ideally. Interesting that you'd suspected the better nights might result in shorter morning naps, and then that happened today - annoying, yes, but at least not unexpected, you can reason it out. Was he doing the chatting thing between 6:15-7am this morning too? Next time that happens, perhaps you could push that morning nap a little later, in the hopes of keeping it long?
-
He was chatting and banging his bars until 6.45 when he started crying on and off so I had to get him up at 6.50. Because of that I chickened out of pitta him down at 10. 15 and stuck with 10am, but then got the 1hr30 nap. Tomorrow I will go for 10.15 and be brave!
Thanks for your reassuring words.
Fingers crossed again for tonight!
-
Dare I ask how it's going? :-*
-
Lol! Not great! So we had those 2 sttn in a row, I have been continuing to try and give him the right total A and S times as well as a last A that suits him based on his best nights recently but it hasn't made a difference. He wakes anywhere between 3 and 4.30 for up to 1hr30 and then usually awake for the day about 6ish, although I don't get him up til at least 6.45. I now seem to have lost the 2 hour morning nap as well which does not work for us with the school run next week. I am considering changing it all up and doing a shorter morning nap and longer lunch time nap. However I am scared of the long A to Bed, although I know it works for many.
-
The long A to bed worked for us.
-
Thanks for the reassurance lily, I'm hoping he may surprise me. We are on holiday this week so just winging it for a week and starting afresh next week as no doubt we will pick up bad habits this week!
-
Aw sorry to hear you're still having those wakeful nights :-\ Hope you're still enjoying your holiday :-*
-
Thanks, last night wasn't too bad, but we did give the dummy when he woke which normally he only has for naps. But the walls are mega thin on our apartment so we didn't want him waking everyone up. Trying to get him to nap as we speak, this is the latest challenge!!
-
IIWY and the dummy works at night, I would probably give it to him. I'd rather sleep now and worry about weaning it later ;) He's just about old enough to replug on his own so it might really help you out at nights.
-
Thanks lily, we have continued to use it whilst on holiday and will see what happens when we get home. Had a great night last night and hoping for the same again tonight!
-
Sounds good, hope you're having a great holiday too :-*
-
Thanks! We are home now and I am having one of my arhhh I don't know what to do days! I know I sound like a broken record and have posted a couple of other threads on the same topic but I just can't decide what routine to go with during the day. As we are back from holiday I am ready to start afresh tomorrow but with what I don't know. Before we went away he seemed to have stopped giving me a 2hr am nap which doesn't work with his original routine because of the school run. So if he won't do the 2hrs I need to try something else. Also I was worried that a second nap at 3.30pm was too close to Bt. I looked at sample routines and nearly all of them are napping at 9/9.30 and 1/1.30. So not sure if I should try this although he has been having first nap at 10 so not sure if that would be a step back. And would a nap that early cause EW? Also has to fit in with 3 til 3.30 school run. Or I could do a short nap at 10 for 30 mins and then a nap at 1 til 3?
I know I sound like a broken record but I am going round and round in my head and hubby is getting annoyed with me. I have no one else to talk to about it.
-
And obviously still trying to loose the long night wakings!
-
(((Hugs))) I know that feeling :-* well....
7am WU
10-10:30 nap
1-3 nap
7pm BT
...as a starting point, perhaps? It'll likely take him a little while to adjust, though.
-
You think that's the best option ? Thanks for helping! I'll give it a go!
-
Oh dear well I'm not going to swear by it, it just seemed to be where you were heading in your own thinking, only time will tell how it'll work for your LO... For comparison, mine was doing this at 11mo, having to fit in with the cm's school runs:
6:30 wu
9:30-10 nap 1
1-3 nap 2
7ish - I think!
So a few months younger, but your WU and first nap are half an hour earlier giving him a little more sleep and less A time than mine had at 11mo...so not too far off the mark, hopefully :P
-
It seems to be my only real option at the moment, so we'll see how it goes for a week shall we?
-
The routine trembler posted was exactly what I was going to recommend. If you think he'd like a touch more sleep in the morning, you could try the nap at 9:30/9:45. I ended up moving DDs nap earlier at that age and she adjusted easily.
-
I think he would go down earlier and as I only need a short nap it could work. I am scared of making emw worse by making that nap earlier though? Would 9.30 be OK? He has a tendency to wake from 5.45 onwards as it is! Although on holiday last week he was falling back to sleep and we were waking him at 8.30! At home he doesn't seem to drop off again anymore. We try not to get out of the cot til 6.45 at least.
-
Would 9.30 be OK?
I think it's fine. Both of mine had am naps at 9:30. I found pushing it out with DD never helped - pulling it back is what solved some night issues.
-
That's interesting, how did it help you? I did a 9. 30am nap this morning but let him sleep as long as he wanted because I felt he was overtired from the holiday and day of travelling yesterday. He did 9.30 to 10.55, 2 til 3.50. Hopefully tonight will be OK and no ew or long nw! If he seems over his OT tomorrow then I will go for the short am, long pm. I am thinking 9.30 to 10.15, 1 til 3. If he doesn't give a full 2 hours in the pm then I will need to adjust the morning nap right? How long should I give it before seeing if it works? If he doesn't do the 2 hour pm nap should I change it the very next day? Also will I hit some OT because I am capping the am nap short?
Sorry for all the questions!
-
Well, see how the pm nap goes, ie if he wakes earlier but seems refreshed, like he's had plenty of sleep, then you may want to shave a little off the am nap the next day, or extend his A before the pm nap instead. But if he wakes earlier and really isn't happy about it and you feel he's OT, then you can try resettling and iiwm, I'd probably try the same again the next day, since it would take me a few days to know for sure that it's OT waking him because I was pushing him too hard, rather than him waking for some other reason. It can take a while for them to adjust to sleeping a bit longer in the afternoon - same applies when going to one nap too.
-
Ok thanks for the advice. Hopefully he'll be over the ot tomorrow and we can give it a go.
-
That's interesting, how did it help you?
I think it helped DD get over accumulated OT and it just fit better with her body clock. I started getting better morning naps with the earlier time.
If he's OT from your holiday, I would actually give him another day of following his lead and letting him nap as long as he wants. I found sometimes day or 2 of that really helped my DS get things sorted out.
-
I did exactly that Lily! Let him do what he wanted today, which was
Wu 6.45 (great Wu for us and great night too)
S 10.15 to 11.30 (weird length?)
S 2.40 to 4 (weird again?!)
Bt 7
As I said we had a great night last night with just a quick wake for dummy at 5am then up at 6.45. He woke happy after 1st nap and was happy for all next A time.
-
That's great :)
-
Celebrating with you :)
-
Ok so here I am again! I did not start the short am, long lunch routine because after I let him have his catch up days he was able to handle a 3hr30 A time so I had another bash at his original easy, hoping that the longer A would sort things out.
So I aimed for this today
Wu 7
S 10.30 to 12 (didn't want to think he'd do 2 hours again!)
S 3.30 to?
Bt?
He ended up doing this
Wu 7
S 10.30 to 12.30 and I woke him at 12.30!
S 3.45 to
And this is where we are now.
Ive not really got any idea how long to let him sleep now and then what Bt should be. If I have to wake him is it OK that I woke him from both naps today?
Also I prefer Bt at 7pm, 7.30 pm would be the latest I could go to, to fit in with ds1.
So should I cap second nap at 45 mins or an hour? I'm guessing no longer than that. What would the final A time be after 45 mins and what would it be after an hour?
Praying for a good night tonight after the day has gone to plan so far. Had another 1 hour waking last night. 4.30 to 5.30,but then slept til 7 which was quite late for him! Would a 7.30 bt help things do you think?
-
Ok so yet again I didn't get to this in time to answer for today - how did it go? I'm guessing he was UT for his second nap, so hopefully he'd have done a slightly shorter one of his own accord? Sorry not brave enough to guess the optimum A after a 45/60min pm nap, I'd just say something less than 3.5h... LOs do vary in what they can handle and I have no personal experience of doing it that way around.
-
So I woke him after 1 hour so he had 3.45 to 4.45. He was asleep at 7.20pm. Nws at 3.30 for a while, 5am, 6am then dozed on and off til I woke him at 7.15am.
Thinking maybe the last A was too short. Maybe I'll wake at 45 mins today.
-
Sorry, on my working days I just don't get on until the evening! Keep us posted whenever you like, but don't forget, you know him best, and I think you have a good idea of where you're going :-*
-
To be honest, I don't think his nws can be totally related to my easy. It's been 4 months now, in that time I've tried many different routine changes including going through the 3 to 2 and nothing has really changed. I am scared how long he will continue to do this for as I can't sleep train if he is happy. So I think I'll just have to continue on as I am for now. Eventually I may think of ditching the dummy and see if that helps, but not now while he is teething.
-
Hmm he does have some better nights though, doesn't he? Even if he still wakes, he sometimes resettles more quickly, right? If he's teething tbh I'd expect him to wake, but if there are more nights when he's waking for shorter periods of time, then I'd take that as improvement... If you feel that capping the second nap more will help and/or doing a longer A to BT, then go ahead and try it :-*
-
He has done some nights where he resettled quicker, less than an hour, and where he sttn. But then will have a bad night on the same routine. Yes I expect him to wake when teething but it can't have been that since January. I'll keep tinkering I suppose I just feel Completely done in by it all.
-
(((Hugs))) sleep deprivation is rough :-\
Don't forget that after a good night he'll likely be more refreshed and then may need a routine the next day which has a little less daytime sleep, if that makes sense?
Are you ever able to sleep in another room and let DH do the MOTN resettling? I'm not saying every night, but I know what a difference it makes to me to get a good night's sleep once in a while :-*
-
Thanks for the hugs. Yes dh does a lot of the nights at the weekend, I'm just so fed up of trying to solve it and getting no where. I can have 2 days the same and 2 totally different nights. I've read around on other sites and it seems others have a crier so can sleep train or it turns out to be a phase of a few weeks. Not 4 months with no end in sight.
-
Do you think he could just be one who catches up lost sleep really easily, so perhaps he's done one routine one day, had a good catch-up night and then the same routine the following day resulted in a UT night? It just seems like sometimes he can do it and sometimes he's UT?
-
I've no idea! I don't know anymore. And it's been a while since we had a good night so hard to remember. The 2 times he sttn he did it 2 nights in a row then went back to waking on the 3rd night. I'll bear that in mind next time we get a good night andand try to adjust rather than just repeat the day. Unfortunately we are cutting teeth right now and he was crying every 2 hours last night, the worst night we ever had with him. So until he is over this I need to just hold tight. Thanks for the food for thought.
Edited to say I just looked back over my notes and remembered that after a couple of good night's he was naturally shortening the first nap to 1hr30 instead of 2hr. So he was naturally giving himself less day sleep. But then not sttn that night?
-
(((Hugs))) yes, medicate and hold tight for now :-*
I wonder whether next time he does a good night, you need to lengthen that first A time, so rather than letting him go down a bit UT and then doing a slightly shorter nap and possibly then ending up OT by the end of the day, put him down a bit later in the hope of getting a long nap again and pushing the day out without getting OT? I usually find that having a bit of a mental plan helps me to feel a bit more in control of the situation, even if it doesn't immediately translate into better nights :P I just need to have a plan as I don't like feeling out of control ;) even though of course with these LOs we're not in control at all - at least, not where sleep is concerned ;D
-
That's good advice about the first A time, thanks. He seems to like slightly longer than average As, am I right? He has 3hr30 first A at the moment after an hour ish night waking.
Hopefully we will get a good night again in the not too distant future so I can try it out.
-
I'm just so fed up of trying to solve it and getting no where.
(((Hugs))) It's so frustrating to be continually getting up at night with no end in sight.
You have done a great job of looking at your LOs sleep needs and tweaking and observing. I think it may help you just to step back for a bit instead of trying to always get the "perfect" day in hopes of getting a good night. Letting go for a bit may not fix things but it will take the pressure off of you feeling that if you just did something a little differently everything would be better. My DS had long, happy NWs for ages and I made the conscious choice not to agonize over it. I would get up, feed him (this did shorten the NW from 1h30+ to about an hour), put him down and go back to bed. If needed, I put in ear plugs and told DH to poke me if DS needed me. Even with me always feeding him when he woke, he did start STTN on his own eventually.
-
Thanks Lily, I will definitely calm down a bit and let things take their course.
I have a couple of questions.
He had a good night last night and slept in til 7.30. Does that mean he should go to bed at 7.30 too instead of 7, if his naps go ok?
Also he had a good night but I chickened out of giving him a longer first A time like you suggested trimbler! I just couldn't get my head to believe he would need longer than 3hr30! Anyway it bit me in the bum because he woke happy after 1hr10, so I think you were right and I've learnt my lesson! Anyway the question is if he has a good night and then longer As and good naps does that also equal a slightly later bedtime? So he has the same amount of day sleep as normal but with more A time in the day. Maybe he would have a 12.5 hour day or 13 hour? Or have I got that completely wrong?
-
Yay for the good night :) Yes it may be that he ends up with a longer day, that can work fine for some LOs during some phases. We've certainly had days ranging from 11-13h at different stages of nap transitions etc, even 10.5/13.5h for very short periods of time. I wouldn't be too surprised if he needs a slightly longer day tbh, since he seems to be getting more A time during the night, so wouldn't it be nice to get that during the day instead? ;)
-
Next time I will have the courage to give him longer after a good night. Unfortunately I got it all wrong today so no hope of another good night tonight. After the ut morning nap I got his A wrong and got a 30 min afternoon nap. So only 1hr40 total sleep today and ebt. Not good. I know what to do next time he has a good one though, longer As and therefore later bt if naps are good.
-
:-* just don't be too harsh on yourself after a day like today, OK? It's just another 'data point' to use in figuring out how best to help him sleep well, how can you know unless you try? So don't blame yourself ;)
-
Thanks x
-
I got it all wrong today
Be kind to yourself. You certainly didn't get it all wrong - you did the best you could. A wise mama on here often reminds me that all you can do is set the stage for sleep. It's up to your LO to do the rest. You are doing a great job of setting up good routines for sleep.
-
So we got another 1hr15 nap this morning. 1hr15 is usually ut for us, could he really need more A time than 3h30 already? After a long nw too.
So last night and this morning was
Bt 6.50
Wu 5am on and off til 6.30
Wu 7.30am (I had to wake him die to school run)
S 11am to 12.15
Does he need another increase? We've only been on 3h30 for about 2 weeks I think.
I put him back down after school run at 3.35, he didn't drop off til 4 and still sleeping now at 5. Just letting you know incase that tells us anything?!
-
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about an 1h15 nap. It's fairly restorative so I wouldn't change that A time.
-
Ok, it's just that I often struggle to get more than a 30/40 min afternoon nap which doesn't add up to a lot of day sleep. If he pulls a longer pm nap after it then it's not too bad although the pm nap falls too late in the day to be long. It also means a long middle A time until his next nap after the school run but we will roll with it and see what happens.
His long night wakings seem to be turning into emw right now. The last 3 days he has woken at 5.30, 5, and today 5 10. Sometimes I can get him back to sleep, sometimes not. Last night he went to bed at 7.30 and has been awake since 5, so only 9 and a half hours sleep.
-
Tbh I wouldn't have thought it would do any harm to try out an increase in the first A...especially given your constraints with the school run. Did he seem tired at all after that 1h15nap? Do you think he would have resettled, or was he really just ready to get on with the rest of the day? You might find that a push helps to get the rest of the day later without getting OT by BT...
-
I tried to resettle but no luck. He seemed happy enough afterwards. I'm not really sure where I'm going with the rest of the day. So for example the morning nap is 10.45 to 12/12.15. What should I be aiming for in light of these emw we are having? I get home from school run at 3.25pm. Please give me some ideas for that second nap and then subsequent bedtime. I can't see the wood for the trees at the moment.
Also if he wakes at 5am again and doesn't go back to sleep do I keep naps at the same time? I like a set nap in the morning because of his on off dozing. We don't get out the cot to as close to 7 as we can.
-
Sorry I never manage to get on at the time you're asking - I have my own school run, dinners and BT ;)
I guess I'd say push the morning, I'd do set nap too, especially with school run constraints.
-
It's OK, I didn't expect you to reply in time for today! I just meant that I don't know what to aim for in the afternoons now to help with the 5am Wu. If he sleeps til 12/12.15pm what would you shoot for in the afternoons? And then what bt?
-
Erm... You've got me there I'm afraid! I guess it would depend on the day, but you've said that whatever happens the pm nap tends to be 30/40 mins? So if the morning nap is on the shorter side, i'd say just aim for the earliest you think he'd settle, accept the shorter pm nap and go for EBT. Consider the total A time he's had during the day and use that to get an idea of what BT to aim for.
-
I just feel like giving up right now. Last night he was awake from 3 til 4.30 the up at 6.45. So after thethe long waking I put him down at 10.30 and he slept til 12.20, catching up from the night I'm sure. The put down again at 3.40 and got 30 min nap. Don't know why, didn't think he was OT. Then earliest I could get him down was 7.15 tonight. So will probably have another 3 am OT nw.
-
(((hugs)))
-
(((Hugs))) how did it go last night? I wonder if he just won't sleep longer than 30/45mins after a 2h morning nap? Perhaps stretch to 3.5h or more after a long nap and see what happens? Even if he still only takes a short nap, at least then it won't be so long until BT...
Btw I'm away from tomorrow for a few days and won't be able to get on here during that time, but I know others will be looking out for you :-*
-
I don't mind short nap it's just I thought it may be causing the night wakings. Last night he was awake 2.40am to 4am then up at 6. 15. I started a thread on naps just to see what those ladies thought about the short nap, but if no one thinks it's causing the night wakings then I'm happy to accept it!
-
Well as you know I'm more familiar with the short am, long pm nap approach, I just know that those who did it the other way around, would just keep pushing the morning nap later in the day, so that LO didn't get OT by BT with a short pm nap...you may find that you can push the morning nap even more, since he seems able to handle those A times pretty well?
-
He does handle them really well. I was a bit afraid of pushing harder at the moment after his long night wakings. I am also just completely winging it with regards to the A time after the short nap, as he doesn't give me tired signs. I am going for 2hr30 but as he sleeps badly at night I have no idea if that is right for him or not!
-
Hopefully some fresh eyes on naps will help!