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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: albers30 on January 19, 2016, 21:00:38 pm
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I have an almost 6 month old. Her current schedule is this.
Wake 7-730
play
eat
Nap 10-1030 or 11
play
eat
nap 1-3 or 4
play
eat
play
cat nap sometimes 5-530
bedtime 730 or 8
Night feed around 1am
Night waking around 5am, sometimes eats but generally just wants to cuddle (bad habit I often bring her to bed with me at this point to squeeze in a little more shut eye then I'd get if I put her back down in her crib)
She generally takes 6-8 ounces at the 1am feed and usually goes right back to sleep. Sometimes she gets fussy and is a little harder to get back to sleep but that's not the norm, rarely playful at this waking. The second waking she's usually angry and difficult to settle unless she eats or cuddles with me.
My question is at this age does she still need this night feed or is it just habit and secondly how should I handle the second night waking without giving up too much precious sleep over it since I've got 3 year old twins who typically get up around 7 am too. At naps, bedtime, and other wakings she can be easily settled with patting and shushing in her crib but these two wakings are never easy to settle her back down. Thoughts?
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Sorry for the late reply, things have been rather hectic. How's things going now?
What time is the second NW? Do you feed at that one too? How long generally does it take for her to get back to sleep?
I would keep the first NF at this age, We dropped our BF at around 7mo when I noticed she was taking less and less of her first feed of the day.
I wonder if you might be starting to hit the 3-2 transition soon? Some bubbas sleep well for their naps, then it shows up in their night sleep in that they're just not tired enough to go back to sleep int he early hours. How long has she been on this routine for? Does she ever refuse the CN especially if the seond nap is longer? Sorry for all the questions! xx
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The second night waking is around 5 am and we generally don't feed at that waking but I do have a bad habit of just bringing her to bed with me at that waking to maximize sleep time before everyone is up and going.
At the first waking she generally feeds then is right back to sleep although lately it seems like frequently she's been having screaming fits after the feed that last anywhere from 10-45 minutes before we get her back to sleep. Its probably 2-3 times a week this happens lately. The cat nap happens only occasionally if she doesn't take a very long nap and its going to be too long of a stretch to bedtime and even then she often refuses the cat nap. She's been on this schedule for several months now.
Her first feed of the day is decent amount but she generally doesn't eat until 1-2 hours after being up which makes me wonder if she doesn't need that extra feed at night but then again with our family schedule even when she was first born we never were able to get a feed in until everyone was up and going for a bit just because of the business of the household in the morning with the twins too so maybe she's just been conditioned to be this way. The screaming fits at night are getting frustrating. Sometimes she acts like she just needs more to eat but sometimes nothing consoles her.
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So she's been ona 3hr first A for a little while then? With that EW (other than just wanting mummy cuddles of course), could well be that might be too short for her now? 3hrs is about average for the age, but have you found she prefers higher than average then?
They tend to like to have their A times increased every few weeks now. Do you notice the NW's are worse when she has a CN? xx
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Not necessarily but its been over a week since she had a cat nap so I don't necessarily remember for sure. Her morning activity time/nap is pretty variable because she's the younger sister of twin 3 year old girls so mornings can be hectic and lots of activity both around and outside the house so its not real consistent when she takes that morning nap and for how long since the timing and location can vary. The second nap is a little more consistent with timing and duration as that's usually around lunch/downtime for the girls as well. So to answer your question yes, she's always had longer activity time then is normal for that age whether by choice or necessity as she's not the kind of kid that will pass out just anywhere anytime when she needs it. Her nightwakings just don't seem to vary much and I've yet to really pinpoint any rhyme or reason as to why she settles right back to sleep or not except the obvious over tired nights/teething/tummy trouble type stuff but those aren't regular occurrences and are very different then the usual struggles. Yesterday with the bad weather and it being my day off from work she had a very regular routine day and took a 1.5 hour nap in the morning and a 1.5 hour nap in the afternoon with a 4 hour stretch before bedtime and we had rough night. Not a lot of crying but just waking up frequently and being slow to settle between the first and second night waking. Not sure what that was all about. I don't know if she's developing some bad sleeping habits or if its other things going on as she is approaching the 6 month mark here if a few days.
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I'd just be really careful about that last A to BT. 4hrs would've been way too much which is why I'd think you had a bad night. I'm so wary of a too long of an A to BT because of this.
In the early days of dropping the CN it'snot unheard of them to have longer nights for a while. With those 2 naps, I'd try to keep to a 12-hr day for now. She will stretch it in time, but my DD was 11mo and on one nap before she could do 4hrs ish to BT! xx
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The 4 hour stretch from 2nd nap to bedtime has been a pretty standard thing as she often refuses a cat nap in there and no matter what I try for a nap schedule it seems to always end up around that time. I say that but yesterday it did work out with her naps that there was just a 2 1/2-3 hour stretch between nap and bedtime and she was up wanting to play all night last night. So I'm not sure what the answer is.
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Is there any way you can do EBT on the days she refuses the CN? I can pretty much guarantee 4hrs to BT will cause you issues with NW and/or EW at that age.
I would concentrate on trying to push the other two A times, even just by 10mins every few days to see if you can shorten that last A time to BT xx
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Right now both activity times are at about 3 hours give or take so from what you're saying I'm not sure pushing these out more is going to help. We can try for earlier bedtime but sometimes with everything going on with our jobs and the twins its just not possible and generally she shows no signs of being tired much earlier then what we put her down. I'm really not convinced overtired is the night waking issue either. There are times when its clear she's overtired at bedtime, generally on days she doesn't nap well and its very obvious signs. She's hard to put down at bedtime then wakes up every 20-30 minutes after that for the next few hours needing to be resettled then its every hour or two for a good part of the night. Generally her wakings are those two specific times and if you feed her 80% of the time she goes right back to sleep and the other 20% she just needs a little extra rocking or patting or a few more ounces then normal at the first waking and the second waking is generally put me in bed with mommy and I'm fine the rest of the night so I really think its either habit or she's still just needing the extra food but it just seems like she shouldn't be needing that extra fee most days.
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Hi there, how are things going?
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Not so good. As much as we try to adjust her schedule we just can't get nap times at times that allow less then 4 hours to bedtime without the third cat nap. While we've tried to make her nap times more consistent the length of time she naps has been all over the place. She's been consistently getting the cat nap to avoid too long of a stretch before bedtime and still gets a couple of hours of activity time before bedtime at 730 usually. However, her nights now have been all over the place. There's no consistent wake up times and now most wake up times result in extended periods of crying or frequent wakings. If its crying it goes on and on for an hour or more and the only thing that stops it is she either wears herself out or sometimes if I just put her in bed with me she'll settle down. If its frequent wakings then she's easily resettled with a pat and a shush but I still don't get any sleep because I'm up every 30 minutes to help her settle. At least before her wake ups were consistent and generally easily resolved with a bottle or cuddles. I'm exhausted! Any ideas?
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Oh dear it's so hard when you can't get the sleep you need yourself, isn't it! I'm sorry I just noticed you posted on general sleep yesterday too but haven't had replies yet - probably best to keep to one thread at a time if it's about the same issue, would you rather continue on here (we may be able to copy and paste your post on general sleep here so it's all in the same place) or start afresh over there?
I'm not sure what the nights are usually like as in your other post you're still talking about just the two NWs - is that still mostly the case, but you have the odd horrible night thrown in? Tbh I suspect you'll have to hang onto that night feed a little longer, most LOs I think will still be having one at this age, and there's usually a growth spurt around 6mo too. Has she started solids at all? I just ask because often their tummies can be a bit sensitive when they first start, which can cause sleep disturbances and you may need to go quite slowly with that if she is uncomfortable. Of course teething is possible too, I think 6mo is average for those first teeth - do you think that might be going on too? I just ask because it seemed like things were fairly stable, albeit with a nf you didn't really want and cuddles in the early hours, which tbh isn't so unusual. But then things suddenly seemed to change for the worse, with lots of crying - I'd guess some sort of discomfort, or could be OT too if her daytime sleep has decreased over this time, or her total wake time increased? If you think routine issues are more likely, would you mind posting what happened on a real day, eg yesterday/today, rather than an average routine? Might help us to get a better idea of what might be going on... (((Hugs))) it's frustrating and tiring, especially with an older one to look after too - so I struggle to imagine having older twins!
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I made the new post because I feel like we're dealing with a completely different situation now as things had been very routine and we just wandered if we could/should get rid of the night feeding before and now it seems like everything has changed a bit but in retrospect it may be because we started to mess with her schedule in trying to change her night patterns. It wasn't just one horrible night it had been about a week of them. Everytime we hit the month mark she seems to have sleep disturbances for a week or so but but nothing like this since 3 months when we had a major sleep issue. She's a big girl as it is and always steadily packing on the pounds and inches so hard telling if its a growth spurt or not. She has started solids but not a ton yet. She has seemed a little constipated but she's still having stools daily that are just a little different then they were. Teething is certainly an issue. She had several teeth that looked like they were going to pop for a few months now but recently it looks like her whole mouth of teeth is going to pop at any second but none do, even her pediatrician commented on that at her 6 month check. So she's constantly chewing and often acts like they're bothering her but its a lot of the same signs she has when she's hungry so who knows. She's got a cold as well but with 2 big sissies she almost always has a runny nose and cough so I know this bothers her some at night too. Anyway back to your questions. The general schedule I gave you is how most days goes with just a slight variance in time and duration of nap. The days I work are always more variable with the sitter and those nights generally tend to go even worse but thats always been the case and is nothing new. Yesterday I kept her up a little longer between her first and second nap to get her closer to bedtime to avoid the cat nap. She ended up with about 3 hours between wake up and 1st nap (7-10), 3 hours between 1st and 2nd nap (12-3) and about 3 1/2 hours between 2nd nap and bedtime (330-7) and by bedtime I mean asleep which was 7 o clock last night. She woke at 1230 and ate then after several returns to her room to re-settle with pat/shush over the next hour I brought her to bed with me and she slept sound the rest of the night until 7am. Today was a very similar day so we'll see how tonight goes. I think maybe the evening cat nap was making her want to play in the middle of the night and when we'd try to make her sleep she'd scream for hours. At the end of the 3 hour and 3 1/2 hour stretches she's definitely tired but I don't think overly tired as she generally settles easily to sleep. She has been waking 30-45 minutes into her long nap sometimes and needing to be re-settled (sometimes she can't be) and I wonder if its because she's going a little too long between naps but I don't know how else to get her through to a reasonable bedtime without the extra nap that seems to cause more harm then good. If she's still needing that feed and the extra cuddles and need to come to bed with mommy is just because of everything going on I'm ok with that I just want to make sure i'm not creating bad sleep habits/crutches that are going to be even tougher to break down the road. We had a few of those with the twins since it was basically do what it took to survive for the first 8 months but then it was misery breaking those habits for the next several months.
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Aw poor thing it does sound like all those teeth are probably bothering her quite a lot :-\ hope they hurry up and cut through! We're dealing with teething now too, our DD is a late teether, didn't cut her first until 15mo, and now we have a crop about to pop...
You may well be right about cutting the CN, perhaps just keep it for days where naps were bad now? Don't be afraid of putting down for BT a bit earlier, it's quite common to need a slightly shorter day when they first drop a nap. But yes,hold with what you're currently doing and see what happens.... As for bringing her into bed, difficult one - you know the issues so it's really your call :-* she settles fine the rest of the time, right? So you may find that any temporary night time habits are easier to break than you might fear. But she may be learning that if she cries long enough you'll bring her to bed... An alternative could be to lie next to her cot on a mattress in her room with your hand through the bars - I know several mums have found this a good compromise, but of course it depends on how much sleep you can get yourself in that position!
Btw I don't think that weight has all that much to do with how long LOs keep night feeds, unless they're a tiny newborn, which yours isn't of course. Some LOs are just naturally heavier and still get just as hungry, whilst others are tiny and don't seem all that hungry. Most LOs tend to lose baby fat once they start walking ;)
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Oh, I'm not worried about her weight. She's a tall stout girl, not really that chunky just like her sisters were. I figure as long as she's actively eating a good amount at the feed she must need it since she's not one to eat for comfort generally. Our pediatrician just said she thought she shouldn't need that night feed any more if we wanted to cut it so I wanted some other input.
The cat nap was always a sometimes thing so its not exactly dropping a nap but it is a little shift in everything so I guess the same idea to a degree. I'm just afraid of putting her down too early and then she starts getting up really early since right now its perfect with the girls schedule. She still goes down at nap and bedtime drowsy but awake and settles on her own or with a pat an shush and if she wakes too early during a nap she's easily soothed back to sleep like this and sometimes at night too so I don't think she's completely lost her ability to self soothe.
Two questions about the night wakings then. Generally when she's overtired she's tough to get settled down initially and the wakings come early in the night. Should I continue to assume the night wakings later on in the night are other issues and not over tiredness if she goes to bed easily and sleeps that good 5-6 hour stretch initially. (Same question with naps I guess now that I'm stretching time between them) Second question, is other ideas on how to deal with the night waking and wanting to come to bed when I'm ready to break that habit without making her cry it out. I did the lay by the bed with my hand in there with her sisters but they were older and their mattress was lowered so I don't think I can make it work with the higher bed and to be honest it didn't really work all that well with her sisters either. She has a lot of attitude and when she is mad about something she gets really worked up and when she does it takes a lot to bring her back down. The few times I've tried to get her to settle without giving her what she wants she's carried on for hours and then was back up in 30 minutes or so to do it all again. This was done by a combination of staying by her side and patting/shushing and leaving for a few minutes (I needed a break) and coming back and patting/shushing repeat repeat for several nights to no avail. Other ideas are greatly welcomed because I don't feel like anything I've tried so far has been effective.
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Well I don't like to disagree with medics generally, but if she's still taking a good feed at night and it doesn't seem to be affecting daytime feeding then I'd personally keep it for now.
It sounds like she's still doing well on self setting in general, that's great :) As for ideas on how to wean coming into bed with you when you're both ready... Well, there's still the hand in cot thing if you lower the mattress, right? Or is that not possible with her cot? I seem to remember reading somewhere about Tracy actually climbing into a cot to lie with a baby (!) who was having trouble weaning from co sleeping - but I really doubt that would be necessary since she settles well otherwise. I'm kind of hoping that once she's feeling better and the routine settles down (transitions tend to be quite bumpy, so this may be all it is, once she's settled on her two naps you may get some stability for a while - let's hope so anyway!), then it should be easier to get her back into independent sleep habits at night. It may be that she protested for such a long time previously, because she was in discomfort or UT/OT. Is she especially spirited? Spirited LOs (and their parents!) often have a harder time with this sort of thing, especially if they're very persistent, so I think whatever you decide to do, consistency is key. There are lots of other parents here with spirited LOs who I'm sure have lots of tips, and of course hands to hold :-*
As for your other question re timings of NWs - I'd pretty much say the same as you, that the early evening wakings are more likely to be OT, but bear in mind that OT wakings can be a little later too - I was convinced our DD must have been UT when she started 1-2h regular NWs around 11-1am, so kept pushing BT until one day she was so tired we went for EBT and discovered that that was actually her preferred BT - so we kept it there! The other wakings that could be OT is when they 'crash' at BT but then do a short night, typically less than 10.5h. Sometimes if the night is very short they'll get back to sleep again eventually, so a waking around 4-5am (with or without resettling) could still be an indicator of OT. But yes, UT wakings tend to be characterised by cot parties, or else EWs where LO is happy and remains happy throughout the morning, not showing more tired signs than usual. This is just from my experience and those of others I've known - of course every LO is an individual and you will know yours best ;)
Sorry to ask again - would you like your GS thread locked, so you can have everything in one place here? If so, would you like us to bring your GS post over here to merge with this thread, or just leave it?
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Sure you can combine the two threads into this one. Thanks, we'll give this routine a bit and see what happens. It's just so tough trying to find a routine that works for her and the twins and be consistent with so many variables.
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And yes, I'd say she's a spirited baby. She's got a lot of attitude but has to to keep up with her sisters.
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Ok I'll see what I can do about the other post in GS, in the meantime hope you start seeing some improvements with the new routine. I know it's so hard fitting everything around older LOs!
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Ok so here's what you wrote on GS - perhaps I'll work out how to do this properly some day...
Here is our current schedule, although its a loose schedule as I have 3 year old twins too so there's a lot of uncontrollable variables in a day.
Wake between 7-30
Activity
Eat
Activity
Asleep for 1st nap around 10 (this varies give or take 30 minutes or so depending on the twins activities) Wakes from nap anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 1/2 hours later
Activity
Eat
Asleep for 2nd nap around 1 unless she took a long morning nap then it might be a little later, wakes from nap 1-3 hours later, generally its a 2-3 hour nap
Activity
Eat
Activity
Cat nap between 5 and 5 30 depending on when she wakes from 2nd nap, can skip cat nap depending on other variables in the day.
Start bedtime at 7, generally asleep at 730, if cat nap can sometimes be 8
So daytime sleep isn't too bad although occasionally she has days when she just won't nap, not sure how to handle this and try and get her the sleep she needs. Thoughts?
Second question. She has been waking at 1230-1 am for a feed then 430-5 am just for cuddles usually she settles easy with a bottle at the first waking and coming to bed with me at the second or another bottle but she started to be more difficult to settle at these times and I'm getting the feeling they are more habit then feeding necessity (She's 90th% height and weight). How do I help her over come these night wakings and give up that feed. I feel like she should be getting a longer stretch of sleep at this point. She generally gets put down drowsy and pat/shush to sleep but she's started to fight sleep more and isn't so easily settled as she used to be. How can I help my little girl sleep better?
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OK, so I'm getting desperate. The more we try to help her sleep the worse it has gotten.
For several days our schedule was
Wake 7am
Nap 10-11ish
Activity
Nap 2-4ish
Bedtime 7
NW at Midnight settled back to sleep but generally took a little while NW 2 am fed but wouldn't settle til about an hour later when we finally brought her to be
She has a sitter on Monday and Wednesday when I work and she's terrible about keeping a schedule and half the time I don't believe what she tells me occurred. According to her Monday schedule was
Wake 7am
Nap 10-Noon
Activity
Nap 1245-330
Activity
Nap 430-5
Bedtime was a struggle, went down about 730
Up basically every 30-60 minutes all nights. Sometime easily settled, was fed once, I tried sleeping in her crib with her to get her to settle there and not come to bed with us. Eventually came to bed with us and played for awhile and finally drifted off to sleep
Tuesday
Wake 7am
Nap 930-10
Activity
Nap 1-4
Activity
Bedtime 7
NW Midnight couldn't get her to settle til about 2 wasn't happy but wasn't angry. Attempted again to lay with her in her crib to help her settle which 2 hours later she finally did. Up again at 3 ate and came to bed with us. Slept til 745am
Wednesday
Wake 745am
Activity
Nap 10-11:15
Activity
Nap 1-330
Activity
Tried to put her down at 6 but fought it til she finally went down at 715
Up at 1145 ate and back to sleep for an hour them pretty much up for the rest of the night with short sleep sessions from 30-45 minutes with one stretch finally from 430-630am. Most of this time she was just angry screaming and fighting anything we tried to do.
I haven't gotten more then a few hours sleep a night for a week now as our older two have been having some sleep issues with all the commotion from Violet so when I'm not trying to get her to sleep I'm trying to settle them back down. I'd give anything to go back to the 2 consistent wakings we were having with our old schedule at this point. Even though that had been a consistent schedule for over 2 months everyone kept telling me she was over tired but ever since we've tried to change that she's gotten more over tired because now she's not napping consistently or sleeping well at night. I don't think at this point we can go back but I don't know where to go from here. She's a happy playful baby during the day, you'd never guess she wasn't sleeping at night but she's got to be overtired so I don't know at night whether we're dealing with over tiredness or sleep training issues so I don't know how to address the night wakings anymore but I'm getting frustrated so I've got to figure some kind of plan out. Ideas??????
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Monday?? Seriously?? Just two periods of 45min then 1h A time the whole time the sitter was there? So either she was just really tired and crashed out all day, and that's why the following night she was up all night - or the sitter just didn't record what actually happened? Frustrating if you don't know which it is... :-\ Looking at Wednesday too, I don't think her A times were long enough then either, although much better than Monday - both those nights after the sitter sound UT to me. But I'm sure you've talked to her about all this already?
That daily routine you posted at the top of your last post sounds pretty good really, but I can't help wondering whether she might be getting hungry around midnight? All that trouble settling back off to sleep and waking to feed not long after? Or do you think we can definitely rule that out? How's her eating/feeding during the day? (((Hugs)))
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I talk to her and it doesn't seem to make a difference and we have the same conversation the next time. I'm very frustrated with her, in other ways too, but we don't have any other options for childcare for Violet on the days I work right now. She does't eat very well for the sitter either, on days my husband or myself are home she eats pretty well but its reasonable to think she still needs/wants one more feed a day. I just thought about it and the midnight feed actually makes sense. She used to wake at 1 am to eat but thats when she went to bed at 8, now that she's going down at 7 makes sense she's want to eat an hour earlier I guess. The top routine seemed to be working pretty well overall. She was definitely tired by the 2 pm nap time and bedtime so I worried maybe she was getting a little overtired but nothing terrible so if you think that's reasonable it makes me feel better about it.
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Yes I wouldn't worry about her being tired for her second nap and then getting a lovely long one :) I'd be concerned if it was a short OT one, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If you're worried she was OT by BT on that routine you could put her down a little earlier, hard to tell really as she doesn't do the classic OT thing of waking early in the evening, or even having a long nw around 3h after BT (which is what my DD did for a long while). Let me know how it goes feeding around midnight, see if it helps things later in the night. Any idea whether she might get uncomfortable after night feeds - gas or reflux, for example? Please could you post her daytime feeding routine? Perhaps we can fit another feed in there somewhere??
How frustrating about the sitter :-\ not sure what to suggest other than keeping on at her, explain what a difference it makes to her nights when she's had too much daytime sleep.
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Wanted to get back to you sooner but its been a little crazy and I wanted to see if trying to have a little more routing during the day might make a difference but it hasn't. For the past week the schedule has been pretty routine in one of two schedules which I'll list.
Wake between 6 and 7am
Nap 10-1
Activity
Nap 4-430
Bedtime between 7 and 730
Wake between 11 and 12 might resettle right away with a bottle, might not
Wake 2am restless until 4am takes a bottle initially and goes right back to sleep for 30 minutes then up again
or
Wake between 6 and 7am
Nap 10-1030 or 11
Activity
Nap between 1 and 130 to 330 or 430
Activity
Bedtime around 7 give or take 20 minutes
Wake between 11 and 12,might resettle with a bottle quickly might not
Wake 2-4 restless, generally takes a bottle and might immediately go back to sleep but generally up again in 30 minutes
With the 2-4 wakings she's then been getting up closer to 6 instead of 7 now which is not helping.
Yesterday her schedule was
Wake 7am (bad night the night before due to weird schedule with sitter)
Nap 10:15-11
Activity
Nap 1:30-3:30
Activity
Tried to put her down at 630 but she fought it until about 7:15
Up at 10:30 resettled easilty
Up again at 11:15 took a bottle and resettled about 11:45
Slept till 5am took a bottle but didn't resettle until about 6am and slep then til 730
At night I've been keeping her in her bed and either patting shushing to settle, laying with her in her crib, or laying beside her with a hand in the crib on her. She settles the quickest and most contently if I lay with her but even this still takes a while. All of her wakings are non-stop crying varying from all out scream to just kind of a whiney cry as I call it. As for her daytime feedings she's not a great consistent eater. She might take 2-3 ounces when she wakes then 6 or so before her first nap depending on the length of the nap she might take a few ounces when wakes then maybe 4-6 before second nap. She generally takes 3-6 ounces after second nap depending on lenght and feeing amount before and then generally 6-8 ounces at bedtime. Somedays she'll hardly eat others she'll take 8 ounces everytime you give her the bottle. Feeding has been difficult with her from the start though, she was never a good nurser (too much commotion and activity around I think always distracted) and she went on a nursing strike when I went back to work at 3 months. I pumped and bottle fed for several more months as she would never go back to the breast after that but then I got mastitis a second time and called it quits.
Any more thoughts or ideas on her sleep are greatly appreciated. I'm really struggling with is it my fault and she's over tired and that's why she's sleeping poorly or is it that I need to get tougher on her and do some sleep training. With the other two who've developed their own sleep issues now since she's up so much I've got to get her sleeping better somehow as my gas tank is really running on empty. Willing to try anyting. Also, we've got a family trip coming up in April and 5 nights in a hotel with all 3 girls if she's not sleeping better is going to be a nightmare.
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(((Hugs))) so frustrating! You know, I can't help thinking that she needs less daytime sleep, and less sleep overall, than she's currently getting? Looking at the last routine you posted (Saturday?), it seems like a short morning nap followed by a 2h pm nap resulted in a better night? I'd consider trying something similar again, ie a 3-3.5h A time followed by 30-45min nap, then a 2.5-3h A time (closer to 3 if a 45min morning nap, I think I'd try this first), aiming for a 2h pm nap. Then 4h A to BT - to ensure she's really properly tired. I just feel that she's been having this poor night sleep and then making up for it during the day, but unfortunately that creates a vicious cycle, as you've been experiencing :-\ Does that tally with your experience? I'm going to see if I can get more eyes on this too :-*
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Ok so yesterday here was her schedule
Wake 7am
Activity
Nap 10-11
Activity
Nap 2-3
Activity
Bedtime 715
Stirred a little at 10pm but resettled with a pat
Stirred again at 1am but resettled herself
Up at 215am took a bottle but didn't seem to really need it resettled at 3am after patting shushing or just laying by crib with my hand on her
Woke again at 320 and screamed no matter what I did until 4am back up at 425 but resettled quickly up for day at 630am happy as could be.
What do you think?
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Ooh difficult to say but at least it wasn't a 2h NW, right? Could have been a little OT perhaps, with a 4h15min A time after just a 1h nap, wdyt? I wonder if capping that morning nap a little further could help with lengthening the pm nap so that she can manage that longer A to BT without getting OT? Something like...
Wake between 6-7 but don't get her up until closer to 7am
Nap 10-10:45
Nap 1:45-3:45 (if you're lucky!)
BT 7:30ish (earlier or later depending on how long the pm nap was)
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Actually the night waking a few nights ago that you mentioned as being better really was not. I was still basically up with her from 2-4 helping her settle as every time she wakes at night its been a long process to get her back to sleep and then the periods of sleep are quite short before she wakes again.Anyway, I need some more advice as last night was a bit unusual compared to most lately.
Schedule
wake 7
activity
nap 10-1030
activity
nap 100-230
activity
bedtime 640
She then woke at 720, I think due to noise from her sisters as it was so early when she went to bed they were still quite rowdy. From here it proceeded to go as our normal night waking often goes only I had to get the other two to bed so I couldn't just hang out in her room with her. She was difficult to resettle so basically for the next 2 hours about every 5-10 minutes I'd pop back into her room and do whatever I needed to do to quiet her, i.e. pat shush pick up etc. I'd have her quieted down and nearly asleep or so I thought then a few minutes after leaving the room she'd start in again. I'd do a few more things with the girls then pop back in and do it all again. Finally at 920 she went to sleep and stayed asleep. She woke at 130 but resettled with about 10 minutes of patting then woke again just before 6 am and resettled in less then a minute with a pat. Woke for the day at 730am. This led me to believe that perhaps a big part of her problem is settling herself without me being right there with her since we've done so much co-sleeping. Aside from the pat, shush PUPD, what are some other techniques I can use to help her settle as those have not worked all that well so far. Thoughts?
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Oh ok sorry I see what you mean about that nw, hadn't spotted that she only slept 20mins in between - with your hand on her? Still thinking OT...
Tricky to know what really happened yesterday evening, especially with the noise of her sisters and I imagine she could hear their bedtime routines going on and that disturbed her too? Did she wake herself after 30mins of her morning nap, or did you wake her? I'd be inclined to try for 45mins instead, with a longer A time afterwards, just to get the day later so that the older ones don't wake her again...
As for other methods of settling...hard to say since she does seem to respond to patting etc sometimes, right? When she has the long NWs where you stay with her the whole time (rather than going in and out as yesterday evneing when you had the older ones to put to bed), what exactly do you do? What do you feel she needs? If you think she'd settle more quickly if you had your hand on her the whole time, for example, you could just do that to start with, and then gradually reduce the pressure, move towards just being near her or holding her hand (ideally from above, so that you can easily remove it), to sitting or lying next to her cot and shh-ing where necessary, to sitting/lying further away... I'm not totally convinced she needs this though, given that at other times she seems to settle quite quickly with minimal intervention? It could still be more schedule related...
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First, I hardly ever wake her from naps because she is super cranky if I do so all of those nap times are her choosing. I really don't think its OT anymore. She's had a pretty consistent schedule for days now and has been going down well for naps and bedtime never acting OT before and she hasn't had any of the frequent waking issues shortly after bedtime that she generally has when she's OT. When we were trying to put her down with longer naps and only 3 hours of activity before bedtime she was fighting us really hard and that has stopped with the extended activity time before bed. Since she's been born she's always had more activity time between naps/bedtime then what is normal for her age and when she's overtired its generally pretty obvious because she's a pretty happy kid otherwise. Her middle of the night wakings haven't been like they used to be either when we were fighting the OT/UT question. Those she just cries and is generally unconsolable, except for taking a bottle, until you either let her get up and play or she wears herself out. With these wakings she hasn't had interest in a feed and is quickly settled by my presence but the minute I try and back away from her at all, even when I think she's sound asleep she starts crying but is quickly comforted if I immediately return to soothe her. Of course the longer this drags out of me going back and forth soothing her then backing away then soothing her the more angry her cries get and the longer it takes to settle her til we get to the point where she's either worn herself out or I have to pick her up and do the whole bounce pat shush thing for a while or lay down with her. Since she was born she's co-slept with me almost every night at some point so I think its breaking this habit that we're faced with now. Thoughts?
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Yes that sounds very convincing to me! Can't post the link right now but will send it to you later, there's one on gradual withdrawal which I think you might find useful?
Back - here it is: Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)
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Ok, so I'm just at wits end on what to do. I haven't slept more then 1-2 hours in a row and max 4-5 hours of sleep a night in over a month now which is starting to wear on me with caring for the twins and my patients at work too. I've tried the technique you gave the link for as that's what we used with the girls along with all the other techniques discussed thus far and we don't seem to be making any progress. We've tried every schedule possible as well without any results. We had two days in a row with the schedule you last discussed with the 30-45 minute nap in the morning and 2 hour nap in the afternoon and she was just restless all night. Yesterday she had similar naps except just an hour and a half in the afternoon. Was happy and playful as could be all afternoon even at the 4 hour mark at 7pm. She had no interest in going to bed and fought every effort. Still happy and giggling at 8pm I finally put her in her crib told her goodnight and walked out. She played for about 10 minutes and drifted off to sleep. Woke at 145am resettled quickly with a pat then again at 345 am resettled quickly with a pat but then woke shortly after I left the room. I didn't return right away to see if she'd resettle on her own. It quickly escalated to an hour and half of screaming unless I was cradling her and rocking her. Every time I tried to put her down the screaming immediately came back. So she's been tired and cranky all day today even with her normal naps so I'm sure I'm in for a doozy of a night tonight. What else can I do? Is it just the separation anxiety or do you still think something different can be done wither her schedule? I can't imagine she's that super sensitive all of a sudden since she wasn't as a baby but I just don't know what else to try.
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(((hugs))). Sleep deprivation is tough.
I'm here to provide some fresh eyes. I had success with set nap times and thought maybe that might help in your case. I haven't read through the whole thread so before I make any recommendations can you tell me how old your LO is now and do you feed at all at night?
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Just turned 7 months and no, she weaned off the the night feed a little over a week ago.
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(((Hugs))) I'm continuing to follow along but will take a back seat for a while, you're in good hands :-*
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Has weaning the NF helped?
At 7 months, this is the routine my DS was on:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30/1:45-3
BT: 6:45/7
Usually 1 NF. There were lots of nights when he woke chatting. If I left him, he took 1-2 hrs to settle. If I fed him straight off, he was back to sleep within the hour. We still get the odd long NWing (about 1-2/month) but I tend to attribute those to developmental leaps. I just try to intervene as little as possible.
I know the routine I posted is a bit different from many you'll see on here because of the longer last A. I started using set naps when DS dropped the CN because it made everything less stressful for me. I got the routine from another BWer and thought I'd give it a go and it worked beautifully. I think the long last A was really helpful in reducing NWs.
Have you been able to try WI/WO?
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Our current schedule is very similar except she only generally naps 30-45 minutes is the am 10/1030-1030/11ish, but its been that way since she was born since we're on the go so much in the mornings she's doesn't get the chance often for a long morning nap. The rest of her schedule is pretty similar to yours except its generally 7/730 bt. She used to make up for the short am nap with a long second nap like 3 hours, now we're lucky to get 1.5 hours on the second nap. The 4 hour Activity before bed does make a big difference. Unfortunately the night wakings when they occur are either she's up every hour and has to be helped to re-settle which takes 10-15 minutes or she has a 2 hour screaming fit in which nothing consoles her. We used to get the party time NW but that rarely happens anymore. I've found the NW are much worse on days I work and she's home with the sitter. Not sure if the sitter is lying to us about nap times or if she just isn't active enough with her when she's awake or it its just purely heightened separation anxiety because I've been gone during the day. Other nights lately its been better with just a couple of NW that last 10-15 minutes which I guess could be just normal at this age? I've tried every technique and aside from constant contact the waking just escalates in screaming until she's unconsolable.
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It does sound like it could be separation anxiety. Being with a sitter is a big change. My DD had some tough NWs when she started daycare.
Have you tried just laying a hand on her and verbally reassuring her while she cries and not picking her up? I know it's hard to listen to the crying but she will know you're there. Crying can be a stress release for LOs and the change with you going to work is stressful for her. She may just need a chance to release her feelings knowing you're with her.
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That's pretty much all I ever do because picking her up just makes her more angry generally thats why PUPD hasn't really been an option for her. That's why I keep thinking things have got to get better for her but they never really do. She's fought sleep from the day she was born though so maybe it's just her. I have to say I'm starting to miss the days where she was a nightmare to put to sleep but once you got her down she would basically sleep thru the night. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to help her sleep better at night because I know she wants to and needs to.
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Just FYI she's had this same sitter twice a week since she was not quite 3 months old so it's not a new change. That being said she's not a great sitter so I don't trust that the nap information she gives me is accurate and I know Violet is not nearly as active with her as she is with us.
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Oh sorry. I had assumed the sitter was new. That's tough that she doesn't give you reliable information. That makes it really hard for you to figure out BT.
How long will she cry if you just rest your hand on her back?
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Her crying spells last 1 1/2 to 2 hours and that's no matter what I do so that's why I started just laying or sitting next to her crib with my hand on her. She'll settle down for a few minutes periodically but then works herself back up especially if I move away in any way. Those times and bedtime is when I've done the WIWO and she can be pretty much asleep and before I can get out the door even she's crying again. Maybe I should wait to go back to her til it's a full blown very angry cry but then it's often so hard to settle her down at all after that. The 2 hour cry sessions multiple times a week are really starting to wear on me physically and emotionally. She generally has several Short waking a prior to that so I get no sleep on those nights and other nights she'll have 2-3 15/20 minute just restless wakings that limit sleep significantly so I'm exhausted and you can tell and my patience is wearing because o feel like there's no end in site because I have no other ideas what to do. Feel like we've tried every schedule and coping technique out there.
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(((Hugs))) whilst Lily is giving you her 'fresh eyes' I just wondered if there's any way you can get a break during the night? I mean, could someone else take over for a few hours so you can get some sleep in another room, or even better, for a whole night once in a while? My DH is really good at this, since DD is still in our room, he'll let me sleep in the living room sometimes and take care of DD with her NWs (teething for what seems like forever!) - he somehow manages to get back to sleep pretty much immediately, whereas I would tend to stay awake turning everything over in my mind, or just listening out to see whether DD is settling. This sleep deprivation is really taking its toll on you, I know what that's like as I don't cope well without sleep! :-*
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I think Trimbler's suggestion is a good one.
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I wish that was a possibility but I can handle and can function well on very little sleep where as my husband can not. So it's worse for me to have a grumpy sleep deprived husband who can't function and help out during the day then to be up all night. His job is more demanding then mine also as he works longer hours caring for really sick hospital patients and has call where as my outpatient hours are shorter and the patients much less sick and complicated. He does help with the twins when he can when they get up at night to make a little less work for me. Besides I think consistency is really important for her right now to help her work thru this and I don't know how your men are but mine does whatever it takes to get her to sleep as quickly and quietly as that might be which will not help with bad sleep habits. I'll just keep working on the babysitter, her self settling at bedtime/nighttime, and tweaking her schedule to see if I can find something that works I guess. The only other question I guess I have then is with the walk in walk out how long and to what extent should I be letting the crying go after I walk out? This is nothing compared to the twins so I can keep plugging along.
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There's no real time on how long before you go back in. it really depends on the LO. Do you know if there are tears when she cries?
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Its pretty dark in her room so its hard to say for sure but generally it seems like just an angry cry with few if any tears. If theres no real time frame on checking on the crying then what makes the WIWO method that much different from the CIO method then?
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Actually I really paid attention last night and initially there's no tears but as the crying episodes escalate over time by the end of the stretch there is tears. Lately it's been pretty consistent that as long as I'm very near her touching her constantly she's fine but if I try to back away she immediately starts screaming. If I stay with her til she's asleep she's back up again in an hour for the same thing if i do WIWO she cries when I leave settles when I return and carries on like this for hours if I don't give up and stay till she's fully asleep. She's been really good at putting herself to sleep at bedtime and nap time with minimal help from us so k don't know why nighttime is so hard. At least the two hour inconsolable crying fits have decreased and only occur if we let her get overtired or overstimulated now.
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Did you ever have trouble getting her to sleep at BT and naps? If yes, what worked then? I'm thinking that might work at night.
WIWO is different from CIO because you are going back in to reassure her - not leaving her to cry until she gives up or crashes. What's the longest stretch of nights that you've tried WIWO?
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The first several months were tough getting her to sleep but she responded well to bouncing, shushing, and patting which still works most of the time except for the occasional 2 hour stretches that I think are due to being way overtired or overstimulated. However, most nights she's easily settled now with a hand on her the only problem is you can't take the hand away or she immediately starts crying again and if she falls asleep that way she's back up in an hour to do the same thing. I've been doing WIWO consistently for at least 5 or 6 days now and fairly regularly before that. With WIWO I do leave her crying for a bit but I guess your saying its just not as long as CIO?
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CIO is when you leave her to cry for as long as she takes to quit (I've heard of stories where LOs cried for 1-2 hrs). If you're responding with some reassurance, it's not CIO. She does need a chance to work it out on her own so you're right to not rush in right away. I find a good guide for me is if I can listen to the cries without becoming anxious. I try to take a few deep breaths and then really listen before I respond. If the cry doesn't arouse an anxiety response in me, I've found it a self-settling/mantra cry and I leave DS to work it out and I only go in if it escalates. If the cry is making me feel uneasy/anxious, I've found that it's an "I need help" cry and I respond. Does that make sense?
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Yes, that makes sense. I just wish my little girls night time issues made as much sense.
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It is hard when the issues aren't straightforward.
Sorry I haven't been on in the last few days. How have her nights been?
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Any night when she's with the sitter during the day is terrible, she's basically up all night. Otherwise, if I'm home one of two things happens. Either I do WIWO when she wakes up and after 1 1/2 to 2 hrs of this she goes to sleep and sleeps the rest of the night or I'm too tired to do that so when she wakes I pat her til she falls back asleep and this occurs every 1 1/2 hours through the night. I was mainly doing WIWO but the last few days I've been so tired I've done the other since we weren't making any progress, not that the other method allows me any more sleep.
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Do you think you need to take a break from attempting to sleep train for a few nights just so you can get some sleep?
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Whether I want to or not we're taking a break because I'm not sure if its illness or teething or a combo but she's been extra fussy, clingy, and running intermittent fevers with a runny nose not napping well and waking up about every half hour since yesterday evening so we're just going to do whatever it takes to get thru this right now.
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(((hugs))) I hope she's feeling better soon. Good job on reading her signs and giving her what she needs while she's unwell.
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Two questions I could use some input on for when you start getting back on track. 1st, I think she's got to be chronically over tired at this point as she has been awake a good part of the night for nearly 2 months now and doesn't make up for it by sleeping in or napping extra during the day. I've tried to help her extend her naps or even tried putting her down for an extra one a few times and she wants nothing to do with it. What's the best way to help her catch up and get back on track because I feel like this might be part of the vicious cycle that's keeping her up at night, especially the long stretches of inconsolable crying which leads me to my next question. What's the best way to handle these long stretches of crying at night when nothing I do seems to help her anyway.
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To help catch up, I would move BT earlier - up to an hour if you think she'll go for it. I've had lots of success with BT as early as 6 pm.
With the long stretches of crying, I would just let her know you're there with the least intervention possible. It may just be sitting in the room and quietly reassuring her every so often.
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Ok, so its been a little while but I wanted to give an update and ask for a little more advice. So we got over the illness and caught up on her sleep and have had a pretty routine schedule.
Wake 7-715 am
Activity
Nap between 10 and 1030 generally for 30-45 minutes
Activity
Nap between 130 and 2 depending on 1st nap generally for around an hour and a half
Activity
Bedtime between 7 and 730
She is happy during the day the day with this schedule goes down well for naps and never really acts over/under tired. Here is what it has lead to with our nights though. She either wakes at 11pm and has a 10-20 minute fussy period then takes a 6ounce bottle fusses a little bit more then drifts off to sleep til 5 or 6 am at which time I bring her to our bed where she goes right back to sleep and sleeps til 7/715 whenever the other girls get up. If she doesn't do the 11pm wake up she sleeps til 2 takes a 6 ounce bottle and is right back to sleep sometimes then wakes at 5 or 6 and comes to our bed or may sleep til 7/730. I guess she must still need the night feed because if she doesn't get it its a 2 hour scream fest which I guess was the issue before and one she wasn't going to get over. I've tried changing up her daytime routine to make sure she didn't associate taking a bottle with going to sleep and to try and increase her amount of formula during the day which hasn't made a difference. Although no matter what I try and can't seem to get her to take any more during the day. She's always been very adamant about when she's hungry and when she's not. Sometimes theres a few wake ups prior to the 11pm wake up that are easily settled with a pat on the back. I've never tried just feeding her the bottle off the bat at 11 pm because I feel like after an 8 to 10 ounce bottle just before bedtime she shouldn't be that hungry since she can sleep til 2 other nights but maybe that's the 11 o'clock issue. She rarely acts OT at bedtime. She's generally still happily playing quietly in her room or reading books with us up until she starts to get a little disinterested then we put her to bed. Any thoughts on the NW and things we should or shouldn't be doing.
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It does sound like she needs the NF still. Both of my LOs were having one night feed at that age - it's pretty common. At 11, I would try patting a bit and if it's not working, I would just feed.
What's she eating for solids during the day?
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Hey there, so good to hear that things are generally working better for you all now and that she seems happy and well rested :D Hope you are feeling better rested too? :-*
Agree with Lily on the NF, really quite common to still be having one at her age. The timings of the NWs also feel very familiar to me, sorry can't remember if I said before, but the 11pm one is probably when she transitions from the deep sleep at the beginning of the night into her first cycle of lighter sleep - mine have certainly both struggled with that one, actually at that age I just 'cheated' and did a 'dream feed' then, sometimes I picked them up to feed whilst still pretty much asleep, other times they woke and I just fed them straight away. Tracy describes a nice method of weaning from the dream feed in one of her books, there's probably a link on here too which we can look out when the time comes, but I don't think that's yet. I just wanted to reassure you that you can just feed at that one if you want, and it is possible to wean them off that later on. Or of course, you could decide to resettle that time without feeding, knowing that you'll have another feed later in the night, but that she may then manage to sleep later in the morning. Coming on to the 5/6am waking - LOs apparently have their lightest sleep towards the end of the night, and then ideally, can then go back to deep sleep for another hour or so, although in practice that often won't happen - mine have certainly struggled with that transition too. Both of these NWs can be more of a struggle if they're in any sort of discomfort (teething, hunger, congestion, gas, etc) or OT, but they may also just be developmental. My DD for example will often still wake then, sometimes it's obviously teething or something and she needs comfort/meds, but other times she just rolls over and goes straight back to sleep, but she's got better at that as she's grown.
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Ok, that makes me feel better about things with the 11 and sometimes 2 am waking/feed. That early morning waking is a tough one for me as she is difficult to resettle then and if I do get her to resettle in her bed she's back up again in an hour whereas if I bring her to be with me she'll sleep til 7 or later and I get some much needed extra zzz's. I don't mind bringing her to bed except with the twins this was a very tough habit to break and she's even more stubborn and its also tough sometimes having her in bed depending on what's going on with the other two or if either of us are on call and getting phone calls ect. She also has occasional times where she just has a meltdown for no apparent reason. It can be shortly after bed around 11 or later in the night and she just screams and nothing I seem to do helps and she carries on like this for an hour or more. I feel terrible that there's no way for me to settle her down and just wanted to get some other thoughts on why this is happening. She can also be tough to read on getting tired sometimes and tough to get to sleep if there's any action going on she doesn't want to miss out on. Any ideas on how to help her settle better in these situations? Most the time its not an issue but we're getting ready to travel with the whole family and I think this may be more of an issue then.
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I also meant to add in that she is big on eating solids and i mean real solids she pretty much refused any baby food. She eats a good breakfast lunch and dinner and generally a couple snacks with her sister too. I think that's why she doesn't take as much from the bottle during the day and maybe needs it as night then. I've tried feeding the bottle before meals but she basically refuses like she's holding out for the real stuff.
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With the bringing into bed - of course it's not 'BW' and I'm sure you know the SIDS guidance, but it's completely up to you to decide how you want to proceed - I see you're torn between concern about breaking the habit later, being on call and on the other hand it getting you all some more much-needed sleep. But I think you probably need to have a good discussion with DH about that and make a decision and try to stick with it - sure you can make exceptions but she might just find it confusing being taken into your bed some nights and not others... I'm afraid I can't promise any magic for resettling in the cot at that time in the morning, I think we're all plagued by EW at some time or another :P so just let me know if that's something you want to work on now, or if you decide to just bring her into bed for now and work on it later, after your travels, perhaps?
As for the hour long screaming, I honestly have blocked that out of my mind with DS, if he did it at all (perhaps on occasion when teething/ill), but DD has certainly been known to do that. For her it's usually been a combination of OT and discomfort, usually teething, or more recently, thirst (which I was a bit slow to realise :-[ ). Having mentioned thirst, I wonder whether your LO has been getting enough fluids during the day, if she's really keen on solids and then perhaps not getting so much milk. I'm afraid I'm a bit hazy at this age, whether to suggest offering water first at night, but my gut feeling is perhaps try offering water a bit more during the day, especially alongside solids - not to replace milk, but to increase her fluid intake, if you think that might be an issue? Then I'd probably still want to be offering milk at night, at this age. Other than that, are the any signs of discomfort of any sort?
Your routine looks pretty solid to me, but could you post a recent day when she's had the long NW screaming?
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I think we'll stick to bringing her to bed for now. Work out the other kinks first and get thru the travel and then maybe try to break that habit. She's also got a lot going on right now so I know that's part of the issue, teething, really rolling over pulling up trying to walk, sometimes I wander if its not tummy trouble from over doing it on the solids and/or not getting enough fluid so I'll probably try the offering more to drink. I've tried introducing the sippy cup at meals with water and we're making progress with that. As for the screaming sessions generally I think its probably because she didn't nap as well as usual, she was with the sitter, or there was a lot of action that day not that any day is ever quiet in our house. I just wish I knew how to help her settle better in those situations to avoid over stimulation/OT but she's just very go go go and has to be in the middle of it all and my efforts always fail.
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As for the screaming sessions generally I think its probably because she didn't nap as well as usual, she was with the sitter, or there was a lot of action that day not that any day is ever quiet in our house.
Sometimes there's just nothing you can do if your LO likes to be in on the action. My DD was easily overstimulated and often screaming was her only way of settling herself down. I vividly remember her screaming for an hour after her baby shower and nothing I did seemed to help. Screaming helps babies release built up stress and it can actually be calming for them (not so much for us ;)). It's their way of creating a white noise that blocks everything else out.
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Thanks! That makes sense and makes me feel better about things.
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Glad it helped. If you're feeling bothered by it again, I have many more stories about DD screaming that I can share. She is now a very well-adjusted 3 year old who will voluntarily go sit in a dark room when she's overwhelmed (so much better than screaming). The scream-fests have not hurt her at all.
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I wasn't so much worried about them hurting her, clearly by her behavior they weren't I just needed to hear this was normal and make sure there wasn't something I was missing that she needed. My twins were not like this at all, nor any one else's kids that I know, so its just really thrown me for a loop.
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Have you read or heard of the Highly Sensitive Child? She may be on the sensitive side and thus, easily wound up and overstimulated.
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I have not, never heard of it. Where can I find it?
Update. For some reason she's started having trouble going to bed now and then waking up every hour from there until I give up out of need for sleep and bring her to bed with me. She settles after a few minutes of me patting her most times. The first couple of nights I blamed it on teething as she acted like they were really bothering her and she felt a little warm but now night number 3 I'm not so sure thats still what it is or if now its a bad habit. Just when I think we've got things figured out and headed in the right direction, there's another kink.
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Just when I think we've got things figured out and headed in the right direction, there's another kink.
Those babies never let us rest on our laurels. In fact, there's a chapter in Tracy's book BWSAYP about exactly that.
You can probably find the Highly Sensitive Child on Amazon or at a library. I can't remember the authors name.
Does she stay asleep once she's in bed with you? If she is, I think it may be a habit issue.
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Just wanted to update and reach out for additional advice. My last post must have just been her teething or cold or something because it just lasted for a few days then went back to her normal routine which remains
Wake 7am
Activity
Nap 10ish (30-60 minutes)
Activity
Nap 1:30-2 depending on wake time from prior nap (1-2 hours)
Activity
Bedtime 7-730
Wake 3am Feed and right back to sleep
Wake 5am comes to bed with us til wake up at 7
She's still teething and really trying to pull up and walk on her own so she's definitely in activity overdrive trying to perfect her skills so maybe thats all the recent issues are, or I think there's generally a growth spurt around 9 months which we are approaching which could factor as well but currently my biggest challenges are no matter how perfectly she goes to bed at bedtime, no signs of over tiredness at all, she continues to wake every 30-60 minutes over the next several hours most nights. She resettles fairly easily with patting but it gets frustrating when trying to get the other two to bed too. Another issue is while she had been going down very well for her naps the past 3-5 days she's been fighting going down at her regular nap times, especially her first nap at 10am. The other factor is she fights to go down at 10am but once she goes down she's now napping 1 1/2 - 2 hours so then I push back the 2nd nap a little which has now become a 30-45 minute nap. Surely she's not trying to drop to one nap yet right? She's always been a little ahead of the curve with her sleep needs but that seems way early, is it just the milestone stuff messing with things?
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Hi there, good to hear from you :)
She could well be starting the 2-1, the process can take several months though. Do you think she may be telling you that she prefers her longer nap in the morning now, rather than in the afternoon? Could you perhaps consider putting her down a little later in the morning and going for an even longer morning nap, and a CN later on? Have a read of this to refresh your memory, what you do think?
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
Those early evening NWs say OT to me, could you try getting her to bed a little earlier?
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We've tried that and she just fights us on going down and then does the same thing anyway. I'll take a look at the nap transition and get back to you. We're going on vacation soon where a later longer morning nap followed by a later cat nap would work best anyway so we may start giving that a try.
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For us the wakings early in the night were a cause of accumulated OT and took a few weeks of a significantly earlier BT to eliminate.