BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: JennVanessa1083 on January 30, 2016, 16:31:18 pm
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Hi!
My almost 8 month old (will be in a couple of days) screams hysterically before every nap and bedtime unless I hold him on my chest. This has been going on for a couple of days. Today it was a half hour of just screaming until I held him. He used to be pretty good at self soothing to sleep. I would have a routine, place him in his crib wide awake. Sometimes I would sing a lullaby as he drifts off or sometimes he would crawl and roll around then get tired enough to just drift off. He just started Wonder Weeks Leap 6 which I hear wrecks sleep. I also hear that separation anxiety around this age peaks. I don't know what to do. I try everything but after a half hour of screaming and hyperventilating crying, I give in and hold him to sleep. My DH suggests letting him cry but I whole heartedly am against any form of CIO. I feel bad for letting him cry in his crib as I try to soothe him. I don't want to create bad habits but I also don't want an extremely OT baby either. We currently co sleep at night which I'm looking to transition very soon (I just need the extra push to do it as I enjoy it but my DH has been sleeping on the couch for the last 4 months). Is this part of the issue? He would always take naps in his crib. I'll admit sometimes I have had to apop naps if they were broken.
We are trying out a new routine for the last week. I may pull it back to a 7-7 sort of day. Here it is:
WU 7:30 am
S 10:30-11:30 am (today he finally fell asleep close to 11 and slept on me for 1.5 hrs with quick resettlr at 37 minutes)
S 2/2:30-4/4:30 (im still working on tweaking this and lengthening this nap)
BT 7:30 /8 pm
It's been an ok transition to the new routine but his naps are sort of messy which means our EaSY is not exactly like above but it's pretty close give or take 15 minutes or so.
I'm going crazy bc it's piercing crying and he is hyperventilating. Honestly, I cry Everytime bc I can't take it. Is it developmental? Am I going through a sleep regression? Is it a routine thing?
I am afraid he will forget to self soothe or something. Any advice or thoughts are much appreciated thank you!
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It could be that he's not tired yet when you PD at 3hr A time (short for his age) and then becomes OT because he's not fallen asleep in his 'sleep window'.
Yes, could definitely be developmental and frankly, I've found with SA type disturbances they pass more quickly and LO returns fine to IS providing they get the cuddles and comfort they are asking for when they need it.
It may be worth trying an extra 15 min A time and seeing if that helps. Once the skill of self-settling is learned, it comes back quickly once the development has passed provided routine is still reasonable. Unfortunately, sometimes these leaps take a while to resolve but generally, you don't need to be too worried about losing the capacity to self-settle.
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Thank you so much! I can definitely try 15 minutes later. My aim is to set the naps once we get optimal times for sleep. So maybe trying 15 minutes later for the am nap like:
WU 7:30 am
S 10:45-11:30?
S 2:30-4/4:30 (hopefully)
BT 7:30/8 pm
Would cutting his am nap to 45 minutes be ok or is it too short for his age?
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It would be ok, probably - it really depends on the child.
Is there a reason you're still shooting for a 12hr night?
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Not in particular. I guess because he tends to sleep 11 hours but wakes up 3 times in the night. Maybe I should do less than a 12 hour night?
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Yep, 11hr night would be more reasonable expectation at this age. If he's taking 12hr nights ok, no need to change it.
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So do you think I tweak my routine to reflect 11 hrs?
Not sure what that would look like really. Do I just add 15 minutes to both am and pm naps?
I do get long EMW sometimes which I think is developmental oraybw routine related. Yesterday went like this:
NW 9:33-11:05 pm (cried off and on the whole time), 2:43, 5:52 am
Total ~ 10 hrs
WU/ 7:34 am
E 7:48 am
A
E 9:30 (solids and water)
A
S 10:57-12:23 pm (A 3:23; resisting sleep. OT from last night? Ended up having to bounce him bc screaming. Refusing naps)
E 12:24 pm
A
E 2:30 pm (solids and BM)
A
S 3:32- 4:59 pm (A 3:09; ss with shushing, woke up at 27 minutes)
A
E 5:43 pm
A
E 7:49 pm
S 8:21 pm (A 3:22; in my arms; no crying only fussing when I tried at 3 hrs A. Maybe he needs 3.5 A after good pm nap of 1.5 or more)
NW: 11:58, 3:19 am, 5:55-6:23 (can sometimes be an hour where he's wide awake despite me feeding him)
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5:55-6:23 (can sometimes be an hour where he's wide awake despite me feeding him)
This here is another sign that the first A time needs an increase.
I think by the time you've got your A times up high enough, 11hr night will happen without adding time to naps and your EMW will probably go.
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Sorry just to clarify then...should continue to cap the am nap at 1 hour or for now do two 1.5 naps?
Right now I cap at 1 hour then do the pm nap 3 hours afterwards. If I do two 1.5 hour naps. I think they would both need an increase of A?
Also right now he does a 3.25-3.5 A to bed bc he's not tired enough before that. I'm wondering if I increase the first A and maybe the second A, do I reduce the A to BT?
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Ok, so I think if you increase your first A to say 3.5hr, then have a 45min nap (much the same as a 1hr nap in terms of sleep value, just easier to wake from because of the sleep cycle length), then a 3hr A (that's the one you might shift about a bit, could be that 3:25 or even 3.5 is fine there too) followed by a nap until he wakes (or capped at 2.5hr if he keeps sleeping), then BT 3.5hr after he wakes.
You're in the early stages of the 2-1 nap transition and I think its important to keep a long nap so they're used to sleeping a solid nap without capping the nap (or they then learn to wake habitually after 1.5hr and you end up with an OT child when you go to one nap).
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Good point regarding the 2-1.
I can definitely give these suggestions a try.
So I'm looking at an EASY of:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45 am
S 2:45-4:45 pm
BT 8-8:15 pm
I might shift the day to a 7 am wake up because I don't want BT too late.
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Yeah, looks like a good plan. See how it goes.
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Ok so today he ended up going to sleep at 3.25 A; cried for s little but settled in 2 minutes. However, woke up after 28 minutes fussing a little but mostly for me to pick him up. He was UT right?
I should have pushed but he was so fussy. This morning he had another hour long EMW from 5:30-6:30 then up around 7:30 for the day. Reading your last post this morning I wasn't surprised as his A for his first two naps were 3:10 and both naps only lasted around an hour.
So I'm wondering since I did a 3.25 A is there a way to salvage the day so I minimize the risk of getting another EMW tomorrow?
A general question about the 2-1; does the am nap get dropped? I thought you push out morning A times until the nap gets to the afternoon. I'm just wondering how that works if I'm doing a long pm nap. Should I be doing a long am nap and short pm nap?
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However, woke up after 28 minutes fussing a little but mostly for me to pick him up. He was UT right?
I would say a little OT, but probably mainly because he's used to going for a nap earlier, not because it was too much A time. I think these 30min naps are usually reasonably easy to resettle, so give that a go tomorrow. and you should start to see the nap lengthen out as his body gets used to it.
Maybe try a 2:45-3hr A time after that short nap and resettle any OT waking if there is one.
A general question about the 2-1; does the am nap get dropped? I thought you push out morning A times until the nap gets to the afternoon. I'm just wondering how that works if I'm doing a long pm nap. Should I be doing a long am nap and short pm nap?
There are many ways:
1. Short AM, Long PM - short Am is capped shorter and shorter til it is eliminated and Long PM moves a touch earlier initially, then stays around 6-6.5hr from WU typically.
2. Long AM, Short PM - Long AM gets pushed later and later, Short PM gets pushed later and capped. The issue with this is often you end up having to change to option 1 as the PM nap is necessary but gets refused.
3. 2 x 1hr naps - then some 1 nap days with nap in the middle of the day and others still with 2 naps - gradually increase the number one nap days and cross fingers LO will sleep longer than 1hr. This is typically something that happens if the nap transition happens early-ish and LO is in daycare with set nap times. Its not ideal, its very messy.
You've done the most important thing WRT eliminating the EMW by pushing that first A time. That's the one thing that makes the most difference there, IME.
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Ahhhhh makes sense. Thank you for breaking the 2-1 transition down. Very helpful.
Ok so OT...makes sense because he resettled pretty quickly. So then should I try 3.25 again tomorrow morning so he can get adjusted to it before jumping to 3.5? Then do a 2.75-3 hr A for pm nap? Or just jump straight to a 3.5 A time for the first A?
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Oh, so you did 3hr 15min? I thought you'd done 3hr 25min. I'd think just go straight to 3hr30 for the first A time and just be ready to resettle any OT 30min wakings. They shouldn't take more than 2-3 days to stop.
I was saying 2:45 or 3hr today after the short nap - I'd just do the routine you posted up here:
WU 7:30S 11-11:45 amS 2:45-4:45 pmBT 8-8:15 pm
And then we can tweak from there.
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Ok! I can definitely give it a try for a couple of days and see what we get :)
I'll keep you updated!
Thank you :D
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So this morning he had another long ENW except this time he didn't go back to sleep. He woke up at 6:30 am after 9.75hrs of sleep. I didn't feed until 7 am after trying to resettle him.
Is it a habitual EMW after a 9.75 hr night (not including NF) from not enough A in the morning? This has never happened to him which is why I'm confused.
Yesterday went like this:
NW 10:08 (did not feed), 11:15 (fed), 2:45 (fed), 5:28-6:16 (fed at the end)
Total:~11 hrs
WU 8:03 am
E 8:30
A
E 10 am (solids)
A
S 11:18- 12:25 pm (A 3:15; cried a little held my arm until drifted; took two minutes; woke up at 28; UT?)
E 12:30 pm
A
E 2:30 (solids)
A
S 3:51-5:01 pm (A 3:26; rocked; had visitors that ran over)
E 5:05 pm
A
E 6:30 (solids)
A
BF/BT 8:09 pm (A 3:07; nursed)
NW 12.52 am (fed), 3:51 (fed), 6/30 (EMW) didn't feed until 7ish
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Yes, it can take a few days of that first A time being long enough to discourage the EMW.
Have you tried to resettle the short naps ever?
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Yes I resettle the short ones and am able to if they were under an hour. It's much harder to resettle after an hour. I have done it before but it doesn't work every time which throws things off a bit.
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Over 1hr, I wouldn't bother resettling, you've not lost enough sleep there for it to be worth it and it was an UT nap.
I'd just resettle if 45min or less and even 45min, I'd only bother trying a short while since its UT, yk?
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I agree UT naps are impossible to settle! For me they are much worse than OT naps. I guess in that case just go for a EBT.
I can try for a few more days the routine and hopefully the EMW will disappear.
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I was wondering if two long EMW wakings still indicate UT? Or have I let him have to much A and now it's OT related? He's rubbing his eyes all the time so I'm wondering maybe I shouldn't be capping naps too much? Ahhhhhh Im honestly getting crazed about this.
Maybe I allowed too much day sleep (I thought he needed the added sleep since it was long EMW that morning-that was a mistake) but he woke up at 3:45 and I nursed. He tossed and turned until almost 4:30 am. Then woke up at 5:50 am and is still awake! He's been crying off and on as I'm trying to hold off nursing since he just ate. Im about to nurse now.
Maybe this is part of the wonder weeks leap? Would the routine cause an increase of longer EMW?
Yesterday's EASY:
NW 12.52 am (fed), 3:51 (fed), 6/30 (EMW) didn't feed until 7ish
Total: 9:75 hrs
WU 6:27 am
E 7:05 am
A
E 8:50 (solids)
A
S 9:48- 11:31 am (A 3:21; self settle in 1 minute( protested a little but I put my arm next to him and he fell asleep; woke up at 33)
E 11:32
A
E 1:30 pm (solids)
A
S 2:50- 4:08 pm (A 3:19; very crabby and crying. Need shorter am nap and longer pm nap. This doesn't work. Woke up at 30 minutes
E 4:10
A
E 7:25 pm
S 7:32 pm (A 3:24; in my arms; briefly woke up at 1:15 but self settled)
I'm sorry I am hitting you with a lot wrt EMW especially since this board is around naps. Should I move this to the NW board? Or is it ok that I stay on here?
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Has he always woken a few hours after that 4am-ish feed? Any sign or discomfort? Gassiness? Just wondering if he's taking in air at that feed and waking with gas pain 2hr later? Very common in younger LOs but still happened to my DS when he was older than this.
Happy to stay on this board, at the end of the day, i think the nap situation is causing your EMW.
You should only be capping one nap. He has to be let sleep for at least one nap per day.
Initially he will be that bit OT during the day from pushing the A after the EMW - thats what gives the impetus for him to shift the sleep into the early morning.
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Perhaps it could be discomfort. I do notice him passing gas throughout the night. He hasn't always woken up like this especially long NW. I'm wondering maybe it's something in my diet? He's EBF with solids twice a day. The thing is that he's wide awake. He will start babbling and at times get fussy. Even nursing doesn't always work which is where I'm confused.
I'm also thinking I wasn't capping where I should have so maybe day sleep was robbing the night sleep. He averages 14 hours a day so I think that makes him LSN right?
I do agree that I believe it's a routine issue that is causing the EMW bc this has never happened even when I started solids.
Thank you so much for continuing to help!!
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He will start babbling and at times get fussy. Even nursing doesn't always work which is where I'm confused.
This doesn't sound like OT. DS was up to 4hr A time by 8 months, so he could need more. I just want to see how he goes for a week with that first 30min increase before you push A time more.
DYT he was UT and refusing that PM nap or OT? If UT, then its worth thinking about short AM/long PM but its a bit of a gamble early on in the transition as its nice to be sure of one good nap in a day, yk?
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Ok I definitely think it was UT this morning because of his behavior when he woke up. He was trying to get the day started and stand!
Tonight so far he very restless, he actually woke up 2 hours after BT and that was after he woke up with the hour of BT. Then restless and woke up again around the 2 hour mark but resettled himself. So it sounds OT but then it could be UT. He may be restless because of too little A or because he's OT and fidgety. His routine basically went like this:
NW 12:02, 3:47-4:21, 5:52-6:50 am
Total: 10.75
WU 8:03 am (overslept the alarm)
S 11:20- 12:18 pm (A 3:20; self settle in a minute with a little crying; woke up 30; took 6 minutes to get him back to sleep)
S S 3:07- 4:58 pm (A 2:51; cried for 1 minute then self settled; woke up at 1:01)
BT 8:31 pm
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Yep, so you've got OT and UT at play and its really getting that daytime routine sorted out that will make a big difference.
You're doing the longest A time at the end of the day still which doesn't seem to suit him. Pushing that bit more in the first and second A times I think should help. You've also still got some pretty massive NWs in the early hours - I think keep pushing that AM A time if you can.
When he wakes 30min into that first nap, how's he behaving?
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After 30 minutes he looks around then starts fussing but not actually crying.
Perhaps 3.5 A to bed is too long? Should I shorten it to 3hrs? Does that mean lengthening the first A beyond 3.5 or you mean making sure he goes down closer to 3.5 rather than 3:20A for example?
Also I think the second A could be lengthened to 3 hrs after a 45 minute nap.
Today, he only slept for 35 minutes on the first nap and then I did a 3 hr A and he needed resettling around the 35 mark.
I agree with you that it's a OT UT situation. Last night was better; no long NW!! However, he woke up twice within 4 hours after BT, slept until 5:30 and ate. Although he put himself back to sleep, he was tossing and turning a lot! I think we are on the right track but definitely need more tweaking.
I did the same routine today:
NW : 10:50, 1:03 am (fed), 5:16 am (fed)
Total 11 hrs
WU 8:01 am
S 11:28- 12:03 (A 3:27; put him down at 3:13A and was not tired. Then cried. Picked up the put down and shushed fell asleep in two minutes)
S 3:03- 4:52 pm (A 3 hrs; came home from play date late; nursed bc he was hungry and no time for solids.)
S 8:23 pm (A 3.5)
He's woken up twice in the last two hours after BT. First NW was 35-40 minutes after BT then an 1hr and 20 minutes afterwards. Ahh just when I thought the A to BT was resolved. Well looks like it's OT right?
We will see how tonight goes!
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Looks like its falling into place :)
Maybe just stick with it (perhaps reduce A to BT by 15min since he's OT there) for a few more days so we know the signs we're seeing are reliable, then we can tweak - I think likely you'd increase AM by just making sure he doesn't go down before 3.5hr and get that 2nd A time up to 3hr post-45min nap.
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Yes! Things are starting to look up! :D
Tonight was rough... He was up 4 times: 9pm, 10:30, 12:45, and 4am where he was tossing and turning. Finally I nursed and he went back to sleep. Can 15 minutes of extra A at BT really cause all of this? Maybe too much A after a 35 minute nap contributed?
Anyways, yes I will decrease A to 3.25 for BT and follow the same routine making sure I push first A to 3.5 and second A 3 hrs. Will keep you posted!
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Can 15 minutes of extra A at BT really cause all of this? Maybe too much A after a 35 minute nap contributed?
Yeah, without those 9 and 10:30 wakings, you'd have had a normal night and those are from OT at BT.
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Very true. Here's hoping to a better night!
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Hi!!
Update: last night went well: I shortened is A and he slept until almost 1 am, fed, slept until 5:30, fed, and slept until 7:30! He did a 12 hour night with two NF and no EMW!!!! I'm estatic!
Today is a weird day since I'm having family over. I'm actually holding my son as we speak while he naps since he flat out was refusing. Maybe OS from family and not enough windown.
I have a question: I let him nap for an hour in the am knowing he would have a shorter pm nap since family is here. What would have been a good A to shoot for afterwards. I tried aiming for 3hr. I nursed him, then did his nap routine and laid him down. It was a epic fail! He cried hysterically for a half hour while I did PU/PD. Finally I held him because he was so wired and hysterical. It took me an additional 10 minutes of holding him for him to calm down and fall asleep. His A ended up being 3:40ish. He was clearly OT in the end which leads me to believe either A. He was OS then OT, or B. 3 hrs was too short of an A after an hour long nap and he was UT then became OT.
So in general given the A times of my DS, what would be a good A to shoot for if he naps for an hour in am?
Thank you again for all your amazing advice!
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Yeah, probably OS - I'd say go for maybe 3:15 off 1h morning nap, but with OS factors around, I learned I had to leave the OS area and have DS in a quiet spot with just me for about 30min to wind down from the OS (so playing whatever he wanted, even if crazily active, just not with loads of people around) then PD for nap.
If there's a likelihood of OS, I'd do a modified shush/pat or GW rather than PUPD as its so stimulating on its own. Really in those instances, you're looking to help him calm down :)
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Ahhhhh I see! I'll definitely try that should I run into the situation.
In terms of naps, is it possible if DS is sleeping 11-11.5 hrs at night (not including NF), that it can take away from the amount of day sleep? I noticed his naps are not as long (35-40 minute am nap; around an hour pm nap) but his night sleep has lengthened. Should I even this out more?
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I'd err on the side of a longer night and perhaps cap that AM nap a bit more aggressively to get a longer nap in the PM so you're still getting a good long nap in somewhere.
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How much shorter bc he's only doing a half hour am nap with a 3:20- 3.5 A. Is that OT or UT? Maybe he's still not used to the longer A in the am? I have been resettling the am to get at least 45-1 nap bc 30 minutes seem so little. Maybe I shouldn't do that anymore and hope for a long pm nap?With the pm I'm still having to resettle for a longer nap but after an hour I can't. I have been doing a 3 hr A but maybe if he naps for an hour in the am I should do 3.25 like you suggested?
Do you think it's possible he may favor long am nap instead of a long pm nap? Or does it even matter?
Sorry for all the questions, his nights have gotten better but I'm starting to get OT wakings about after BT and I know it's because of the nap situation. It's just so tricky! ::)
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Yeah, if he's waking after 30 min, you may get a better PM nap. I'd just get him up.
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Ok I can give it a try and see if the pm lengthens.
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I had another EMW :-\
Wondering if maybe I didn't push the A enough or too much day sleep. Yesterday's EASY went like this:
NW 9:05, 1:07, 4:36
Total 10.5 hrs
WU 7:11 am
E 7:45 am
A
E 9:15 (solids)
A
S 10:34-11:45 am (A 3:23; patted no crying took 7 minutes; woke up at 30; took 9 minutes to resettle)
E 11:45
A
E 1:15 (solids and BM)
A
S 2:52-4:34 pm (A 3:07; self settle in 3 minutes no crying; woke up at 39; slightly UT; aim for 3:15 after 1 hr nap; resettled in 3 minutes)
E 4:39 pm
A
E 6:15 (solids)
A
BF/BT 7:55 pm (A 3:21)
NW 12:05 (stirred at 9:30pm), 3:37, 6:15-6:40 am (tried to resettle but was restless so I nursed on one side and fell asleep for another hour)
Also when a baby wakes up within 10 minutes of falling asleep does it mean UT? He napped for an hr in the am (A was 3:20; he fell asleep way faster than I thought he would) then I did a 3.25 A. He fell asleep quickly without fussing or anything but then woke up. Then kept waking up. Strange...
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Likely too much day sleep, I reckon. Could be an A time thing - worth trying an increase.
Within 10min of falling asleep is more often pain or overstimulation. Could be OT but would be more unusual.
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That's interesting wrt too much day sleep; he only totaled 2.5 in day sleep. For his age is that too much maybe? If that's the case then his am nap should be cut down to 30 minutes so he can have a1.5 nap in the pm? These transitions are tricky!
Should I do an increase in the am as well? By how much? Is 3:35 too conservative? I just had another long NW. There was a diaper leak so it could have been all the commotion bc he didn't go back to sleep after a feeding. He stayed awake another half hour after nursing.
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Yes, if you're aiming to keep one nap long, the other has to be short. The idea is to phase the short one out eventually. Often once people get a routine that suits around 9-10 months, it sticks for a few months til its time to shrink or do away with the short nap.
I don't think 3:35 is too conservative, especially if you're doing a decent A time after a short nap and looking to achieve a long PM nap.
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Ahhh I see...in general is my DS younger than usual to have a 30 minute nap then 1.5 nap? He just turned 8 months last week. I'm new to all of this so it's interesting to me that he no longer needs 3 hours of total day sleep.
Also what do I do if it seems DS favors a long am nap/short pm...do I just enforce the short am nap? Will it reinforce EMW if I don't do a short am/long pm? I don't want the long am nap route if it means trouble down the road. Could I just switch at some point? Say from long am nap to long pm or is that just asking for trouble?
Side note, I like the idea of having something consistent for awhile after finding the right routine for him. :D
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No, he's pretty average, maybe a bit early but not super early IME.
If he favours long AM/short PM, do that but make sure that first A time is long enough to avoid the EMWs - you may even end up near 4hr pretty soon if you go that route. Yes, you can switch, in fact, most people who start off with long AM switch to long PM when LO refuses the PM nap after a long AM. Some children never do, some do. You won't know until it happens :) or doesn't :P
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Haha well it's all experimentations and a roll of the dice I suppose ::)
I tried today with a long am nap of 1.5 (he woke up; although he was OT due to the long NW last night so it was a broken nap) and now am about to wake him up at 45 for the pm. I did a 3.5 A before the pm and he cried hysterically as soon as I started the nap routine. I did start a bit earler bc he was so crabby; that might have gotten him all upset. We will see. Should I go the route of long am nap/short pm nap, is. 3.5 A to the pm nap ok or was he crying due to UT? I guess I won't know until the am or until bedtime. I'm doing a 3 hr A to BT.
I'm starting to think the short am is more appealing so I can do more outside of the home. Should be an interesting experiment. Hoping things don't get too crazy!
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3.5 to PM nap after a long AM nap should be ok.
Good luck with your experimenting - I'd suggest doing each for a week to see what happens once the routine is stable.
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Thank you! Hopefully it will work out ;D
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Quick question: do you think it's too soon to push the first A to 3.75? I still got some EMW but I also think he may have had a touch too much day sleep and went to bed OT. The reason I ask is because this morning he fell asleep easily in the car at 3.75. Didn't even cry which is usually what happens when he's OT in the car. Or should I do it more slowly like a couple of days of 3:35 etc? Thoughts?
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I wouldnt bother increasing in 5min increments unless he's very sensitive to OT which I don't think he is. I'd just go for 3:45 straight away.
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I'm not sure what's considered sensitive. If he's OT he cries and will wake up but that's about it.
Do you suggest keeping all other A times the same? So it would be:
WU 7am
S 10:45-11:30 am (A 3.75)
S 2:30-4/4:30 pm (A 3 hrs)
BT 7:15-7:45 pm (A 3.25 hrs)
Or maybe shorten the last A since the first A is lengthened?
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That routine looks fine. I wouldn't decrease the A time to bed, I might even increase it after a good long nap - see how he goes, that could go up to even 3:30 or 3:45. Reserve judgement until you see how he goes.
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I would assume that night wakings will happen when establishing increased A times?
I already had two NW in a 4 hour period. Either that or I'm about to experience a regression since DS is in the middle of wonder week 6 :-\
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When are these wakings?
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Last night it was 11,1:30, and 4:15 am. BT was right before 8 pm.
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Yeah, those don't seem like routine-related wakings :-/
Stick at it for a bit and we can revisit if necessary.
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Ok sounds good! Thank you so much :D
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Hi!
Not sure if I should ask here or the NW board but the past two days DS has had two long NW which includes an EMW. They have been occurring around 2-3 am and 5-6 am. It takes about an hour for him to go to sleep. No crying just up! Here's what's been happening:
NW 11:16, 3:20 am
Total ~ 10.5
WU 6:17 am (approximate; might have dozed for 10 minutes around 7 but not enough to count as sleep; I was in and out of sleep)
E
A
E 8:55 (BF)
A
S 9:58- 11:36 am (~A 3:38 (due to approximate wake up time)
E 11:38
A
E 12:45 pm (solids and water)
A
S 3:06- 3:42 pm (A 3:30; crying hysterically. Maybe not tired enough or WW)
E 3:50
A (party)
E 6:54
S 7:02 pm (A 3:20; crying very OT? and probably OS; came home from party; no wind down; woke up briefly at 2:01)
Yesterday:
NW 10:01 (didn't feed), 11:08 (fed), 2-2:43 (fed; wide awake and restless), 4:55-5:21 am (wide awake again!)
Total ~ 11 hrs
WU 7:27 am
S 11:14-11:46 am (A 3:44; patted crying hysterically for 10 minutes rolling around)
S 2:45-3:25 pm (A 2:59; Mom babysitting; she said he woke up calmly- maybe slightly UT)
BT 6:29 pm (3:04; nursed)
NW for last night: 9:16, 11 pm, 2:20-3:05 (wide awake and restless; kept tossing and turning; fed and fell asleep a little afterwards), 5:30-6:30 (same; wide awake finally fed and somewhat drifted)
Can OT cause these type of night wakings? Is it a regression? Is there anything to be done routine wise? With naps, I'm getting a 30 minute am nap on 3.75 A and a broken pm nap anywhere from 33-40 minutes; I resettle and then do a 3.25 A to bed. Could he need more A time. I'm worried for his sleep he's going below his usual 13.5-14 Daly sleep average. I'm so exhausted already. I can't imagine having to do this every day for who knows how long.
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WU 7:27 amS 11:14-11:46 am (A 3:44; patted crying hysterically for 10 minutes rolling around)S 2:45-3:25 pm (A 2:59; Mom babysitting; she said he woke up calmly- maybe slightly UT)BT 6:29 pm (3:04; nursed)
An 11hr day - almost certainly the cause of UT wakings in the night.
Its really important to keep the A times up enough that he'll sleep well in the night.
WU 6:17 am (approximate; might have dozed for 10 minutes around 7 but not enough to count as sleep; I was in and out of sleep)E AE 8:55 (BF)AS 9:58- 11:36 am (~A 3:38 (due to approximate wake up time)E 11:38 AE 12:45 pm (solids and water)AS 3:06- 3:42 pm (A 3:30; crying hysterically. Maybe not tired enough or WW)E 3:50A (party)E 6:54S 7:02 pm (A 3:20; crying very OT? and probably OS; came home from party; no wind down; woke up briefly at 2:01)
I reckon the tricky BT was OS rather than OT, given the brief 2am waking and otherwise a good night. I'd say this was a better day A time-wise and nap-wise.
For how long have you been doing 3.75hr first A? If <3-4 days, just sit with it and resettle if possible if you're looking to do long AM. If you've been doing that for >3-4 days consistently and have seen the same 30min nap every day, maybe dial it back a bit and see how he goes.
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Thank you for the response! This helps. His overall sleep has been declining in the last few days from 13.5-14 to 11-12 hours and I'm seeing the effects of it. I was worried that there was nothing I can do and I just had to ride it out!
So in general, how do I lengthen the day enough when I have two short naps to avoid UT wakings?
Ok so with the 3.75 A today will be my third consecutive day so I can definitely give it another day or so. I decided to do s short am since part of me was thinking the long am nap enforced a EMW so this too will be the 3rd day doing short am/long pm nap. Hopefully this works.
Yesterday I did:
WU 7:30
S 11:15-11:45 (A 3.75; stroller; he woke right at 30)
S 3-4:30 pm (he pushed his own A to 3.25)
BT almost 8pm (definitely a little OT. Woke up twice before midnigh; bringing A back 15 minutes to eliminate OT wakings)
I had a pretty good night except for a diaper leak around 5 am which led to an hour of trying to get him back to sleep sigh. At least no other long NW so I'm going to try the same routine today. Do you think 3.25A is too much after a 30 minute am nap?
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Do you think 3.25A is too much after a 30 minute am nap?
Nope, if it works, it works. Do watch it though, that 30min on the dot nap for the AM - is that OT or is it habit from being woken then?
So in general, how do I lengthen the day enough when I have two short naps to avoid UT wakings?
A times go up... Basically, its just a matter of keeping that first A time long enough and not getting him too OT.
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The 30 minutes am nap in the am is an OT nap. I'm thinking of scaling it back since its been 3 days on a 3.75 A and its still 30 minutes. I feel as though I have been having OT wakings. Last night it was 9:16, 11:15, 3,and a EMW at 6. Overall his sleep has been averaging between 11-12 hours which is low for him.
Not sure what to do with the wakings.
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Yes, worth dialling back and seeing what happens - he could be getting a bit OT there. Was that a 10hr night?
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Its been an almost 11 hour night each night where not including NW he gets 9.5-10 hrs of sleep with only 1.5-2 hrs of day sleep. I know around the 2-1 transition LOs drop in sleep needs but he went from an average of 14 hrs per day to 11.5-12.5 which seems low.
I scaled back the morning A and got a better nap. He's also under the weather so I let him sleep a bit more. He slept for around an hour so we will see how the pm nap ends.
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I have a general question: does any one switch back and forth between long am/short pm nap and short am/long pm nap as long as the total day sleep hours stay relatively the same?
Has anyone done that successfully but eventually have to choose between the two?
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Yes, its possible, depending upon the child - some children need the consistency, some are fine with shooting for long AM and doing long PM if that doesn't work out for whatever reason. Mostly, they end up going short AM/long PM close to the change to one nap.
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Ok that definitely helps bc I have been switching it when I know he won't be able to take a long afternoon nap such as when we are out during that time. I wonder bc he's doing a 3.5 A for the am which seems to suit him well, if I would do a 3.5 A before the pm if the am is longer than an hour. Does that sound typical of what people do?
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Yep, sounds like a good plan.
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Today was day two of having a longer am nap and a short pm. Both days DS rejected the naps after a 3.5 A and pushed his A close to 3.75; however he ends up with OT 30 minute naps. When I put him down he plays and sits up (just learned) or tried to stand. I do PD but it increasingly makes him angry then by the end of it he's cries hysterically and I end up having to hold him. Both days it was close to 3.75 A. Yesterday's am nap was 1.75 and today was 1:25. Both pm naps ended up the same with the same reaction.
What does this mean? Is he already OT? Is he UT then gets OT? Is this a sign that I need to cap the am nap?
Thank you again for all the great insight! I honestly would be clueless without all the great suggestions on this board.
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When I put him down he plays and sits up (just learned) or tried to stand. I do PD
PD is not meant to be used when LO is happy, only if he's crying.
Is he UT then gets OT?
I would say probably this^ coupled with the developmental stuff - lots of practise at that during A time will help but it can take a couple of days to a week or so before it stops interfering with going to sleep. Its fine to follow his lead with A time increase if he's increasing by a bit here and there.
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Oh I see so I guess I just let him play until he gets fussy or puts himself to sleep.
Ok so I might be going in circles here (Forgive me if I am), so after a long am nap I should try out a 3.75 A for him to get tired enough to take the pm nap?
Do you think if you were me you would cap the am to 45-1hr then work on a longer pm at this point? My DS unfortunately doesn't show any preference for a long nap which is why I have been experimenting. Doesn't help that he has a cold so I have been extra sensitive about not having him cry too much as he has a sore throat and is coughing badly.
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Oh I see so I guess I just let him play until he gets fussy or puts himself to sleep.
Yep, exactly :)
Ok so I might be going in circles here (Forgive me if I am), so after a long am nap I should try out a 3.75 A for him to get tired enough to take the pm nap?
Circles are fine :) We all do it ;) Yes, precisely this. After a long AM nap, give him that 3.75hr A time to the PM nap.
Totally fine to be helping him through while he's ill. I think if I were you, with LO this age, I would go for long AM, short PM as a general rule - that way you know you've achieved one good nap in the day and have another chance if the AM nap is a bust, yk?
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Ok I like that plan :D
In general is a 12.5-13 hour daily sleep enough? He used to average 13.5-14. He's always been on the lower end of the average but according to all the "experts" 14 hours daily is still average. Have you found that at his age many LOs sleep around this range?
Also can 30-35 minute naps ever mean UT? I'm doing a 3.5 A in the am and sometimes get shorter naps that I resettle then he sleeps (sometimes 1:15 sometimes around 1.5-1.75) Do 5 minutes of putting him down make a difference at his age? Or maybe it depends if he gets 10 hours of sleep versus 11 hrs of sleep?
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I find some LOs drop needs temporarily just before and during a developmental leap and go back to 'normal' thereafter. Also, night sleep is just counted as one block, say 8-7 rather than subtracting time for NWs unless they're very long.
My DS certainly slept like your LO is doing at that age. I asked the same questions then.
Its more likely to be a cumulative thing with many factors now affecting his nap length. 30 is typically OT and i think in your LO is probably OT. Some babies who have shorter sleep cycles than average and for those babies, 35min can be UT.
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Ohhhhhh that's an interesting fact. I always did total sleep subs tracking any NW even if it's short. I guess I'm crazy like that. It could be his development leap that he's still in and all the stuff he's mastering as well or a sleep regression.
Right now he's still doing 3.5, 3.25-3.5 (depending on am nap), 3-3.25 (depending on pm nap length)
However, I'm getting early wakings (5-6 am) only after 9 hours or so of sleep. In total 10 hours with 3 other NW! I don't feed every waking only two of those. I try to get him to go back to sleep, even nurse and only squeeze out another half hour. I know that's not enough for him bc he wakes up cranky but then fine after another half hour. He cries when I attempt to put him back to sleep. It's been happening for days. Today it wasn't until an hour later that I fed him and he fell asleep. I'm trying not to let him eat 3 times throughout the night but by 6:30 it was nearly 4 hours since his last feed. Then he went back to sleep for another hour. Is this OT? Last night his last A ran a little long but that wasn't the case for the other days. His naps total to around 2 hours on average give or take. Is this UT? Is it the longer am nap?
Update: Yesterday I tried for 3.5 A and he was playing in the crib. Started crying when I tried to pat. Then tried PD because he wouldn't stop crying, which only made him more hysterical. Had to hold him to sleep bc was he working himself too much and coughing (he still has a cold). So when it was all said and done he did an almost 4 hour A! So I'm thinking I may have to push the A out to 3.75 or its OT from the shorter night and I should have put him down sooner? But then again, he was too wide awake by 7 with only 9.5 hours of sleep which is low for him. This is what happened:
NW 11:28, 1:21, 4:35; 6:37
WU 7:19 am
E 7:20
A
E 9:30 (BF; rejected solids)
A
S 11:11-12:35 pm (A 3:52; tried for 3.5 A and he was playing in the crib. Started crying when I tried to pat PD held him bc hysterical)
E 12:40
A
E 2:15 (solids and BM)
A
S 3:50- 4:27 pm (A 3:15; self settle with a whimper in less than one minute)
E 4:53 pm
A
E 6:15 (solids)
A
BF/BT 7:35 pm (A 3:08; nursed; not enough wind down due to dinner running late)
NW 8:53, 11:24, 3:09; 5:42-6:45 (woke up fussy and trying to be active; I tried to help him resettle then finally fed close to 6:45)
Ugh I'm sorry, I know I keep having questions etc; I just feel like the last few weeks have been such a struggle. I'm drained. He's such a joy throughout the day but I dread when it's nap time and the night.
Thank you again!
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HI!
I wanted to update you that last night he got restless around 2 where I had to intervene. Given the last few days, should I push the first A more or leave it?
Also, he still waking up between 5-6 but if I feed he goes right back down. Since he still has a cold I'm feeding. I do have a question. He tends to feed around the same times every night (of course depending when he goes to sleep) is that ok? Is it habitual?
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It could be OT creeping in - that doesn't mean to reduce A times though, as if you have too many short UT naps, you create the OT.
Never change routine based on one night - always see if there's a pattern over 3-4 days at least before making a change. TBH, it sounds like illness/developmental stuff rather than pure OT/UT.
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Yes you are right. I have been sticking to the routine for almost a week. I realized the EMW was bc he wants an extra feed which is fine as he has a cold. What I have noticed in the last couple of days are his naps seem UT. So for example the am will be about an hour and 10 minutes give or take then the afternoon is 45-1hr. I have been doing 3.5 A for both. He goes down very easy for the naps but wakes up early. So I'm thinking that I could either:
-stretch his first A by 10-15 minutes to see if the lengthens then keep second A at 3.5 and see where that gets me.
- stretch both A times to get decent naps
- stretch one A ( am) and shorten a nap
- keep A times the same and shorten morning nap.
Any thoughts?
On a positive note, he has been sleeping more soundly. :D
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All those options are viable, with the possible exception of this one:
stretch both A times to get decent naps
which would lengthen your day too far - your days of 2x1.5hr naps are over, IMO.
Its a case of take your pick, try it for a week. Stick with it if it works, try another option if not. All those options work for different babies and different families - I'd start with the one that fits into your family life best.
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Ok I can do some experimenting and see.
Do NW happen when baby is UT? I'm definitely getting more NW since naps have shortened.
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Yes, NW can happen for all sorts of reasons, OT and UT being two, illness, teething, changes in dreams, etc.
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Haha yes it can!! He's got a lot going on: trying to stand unassisted, lingering cold, and possible teething. He was restless all night waking up more sometimes putting himself back to sleep sometimes I had to help. If LO wakes up 1.5 hr after BT is that still counted as an OT waking?
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If LO wakes up 1.5 hr after BT is that still counted as an OT waking?
Yep, generally.
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I get these wakings with a 3 hours A to bed ??? Yesterday was clearly OT due to strange nap day (out all day). However, other nights he will wake up around there. Maybe consistency with the new A time in the am will shed some light on whether to change the last A.
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Those *can* also be teeth.
OT at BT is the key there - not that the whole day is wrong, can often just be the A to bed. Off a CN, he may not cope with 3hr A, maybe more like 2:30-2:45 would work better after a short PM nap.
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Yea I do think teething may be playing a part.
I can try a shorter A to bed if I get another CN. Right now I'm trying to resettle DS who has been wide awake for a half hour...sigh. It's 5 am here and he woke up close to it. Not sure if this is a result of not enough A or too long of A to bed. But he woke up fussy but not full on crying which he doesn't do unless he's really OT so I'm thinking maybe OT? He did have a 40 pm nap (outside noise woke him up) then I did a 2:50 A to bed. He still woke up 2 hrs hours later where my DH resettled. So maybe he needs a shorter A to bed like you suggested and not more A in the am. I find it very hard to have him do a 3:45 first A unless we are out and about.
Yesterday's EASY was:
Teething
NW 8:20-8:57 (OT; teething pain), 12:42, 4:04-4:28 (wide awake even after feed; OT?)
Total ~10
WU 6:44 am (OT rising would not go back to sleep)
S 10:19- 11:56 am(A 3:35; self settle; very tired. Started nodding off during story. Woke up at 40; need a push in A?)
S 3:47-4:28 pm (A 3:51; stroller; woke up from ambulance)
BF/BT 7:19 pm (A 2:51; irritable; could be teething pain since biting down on me hard or a little OT)
NW: 9:30ish, 11:45, 2:55, 4:55-5:35 am
Also when teething, do you shorten A times? Today he fell asleep a half hour earlier for his pm nap and slept for over an hour! I was expecting a UT nap since it was only a 3.25 A after a 1.5 am nap. Babies are SO good at keeping you on your toes!
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Also when teething, do you shorten A times
Depends on the child - for DS, no, for yours, maybe. Its worth following his cues as you have, rather than trying to stick doggedly to a schedule.
4:04-4:28 (wide awake even after feed; OT?)
or teeth... wide awake and grizzly or wide awake and happy?
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I'm not sure if it's just teething or also a growth spurt. Yesterday he practically ate and slept all day.
When he has longer periods awake, he will try to put himself back to sleep and it takes a bit. Sometimes I help him if he gets fussy. Sometimes he just lays or sits up looking around quietly.
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Yesterday he practically ate and slept all day.
He could be going into a GS or just recovering from a week or so of not eating as much and not sleeping as much...
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Not sure ???. Today things went back to normal. I'm thinking I do have to push A times a smidge which I will try out tomorrow since today I went mostly on the A times before the odd two days we had.
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Hi!
I have a question. I know when babies wake up constantly in the earlier part of night after bedtime it indicates OT. However, can UT also be a culprit? I have been doing 3:40 A times and have been getting the following (this is today's example):
WU 7 am
S 10:40-11:40 (woke up on his own)
S 3:00-4:06 (woke up on his own again)
BT 7:07 pm
I'm confused. He is teething which I know bothers him but we have been giving him Tylenol. He still restless for the first couple of hours after BT waking up a lot. Do I need to keep pushing A times?
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Hi! As I was reading through your posts, I could have written the EXACT same story. Our wake times are almost the same and I tend to put her down at 8pm too.
My LO is about to turn 8 months tomorrow and we are also struggling with the wailing at naps, 3-2 transition and she hardly ever does an overnight sleep of more than 10.5 hours. IIt has been this way whether I put her down early or otherwise (but there are few if no nightwakings) She's an independent night sleeper but lately has started to shriek for less than a minute on put down at nights before settling (separation? who knows?! ???)
I've had to wake her from naps (she is a chronic 30 minute catnapper but will continue to drowse if I pick her up) and cap the naps in order to fit in 3, but her wake times have extended. We tried a 2 nap day since she woke at 710am yesterday but she cried really hard at bedtime and was up earlier than normal today.
How have things been going for you thus far? I would love to hear how your routine is like now.
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Hi bossanovile - if you're looking for some help with your routine, its probably best to make your own thread - would you like me to separate this one for you?