SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: zissi on February 29, 2016, 11:09:43 am

Title: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on February 29, 2016, 11:09:43 am
hi there,

we had previously NW's of 1.5 hrs + and I was told here that my DD possibly needed a longer day and less daytime sleep. My DD is now 9 months old. her overall sleep need is between 12 and 13 hrs. I cap both of her naps now but over the last nights the NW have returned regardless. Her A time is about 4 hrs, I cap the morning nap after 1 hr sleep and the second nap after 45 mins. I think her day needs to be at least 13 hrs so she doesn't wake up chatting. she still gets a DF around 10pm and wakes for 1 NF (breastfed) which is totally fine for me as long as she goes down afterward. over the last nights I have been APOPing as I was scared that moving her back to her cot would wake her but she stayed up after the feed regardless. she is LSN. Im planning to do the morning nap 45 mins today and the afternoon nap 1 hr, so she isn't that OT by BT. any other ideas? often, when I do get her her down after the NW its already 6am and she would then sleep happily till 8/9am but I usually wake her at 7 so that she can have a normal BT. those NW's are really exhausting, please let me know what you think! or could I be all wrong and she needs more sleep and is actually OT? her long A time and the fact that she is happy during her NW's would suggest otherwise....
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 01, 2016, 02:55:27 am
Can you post your day with times? It's easier for me to see if anything needs tweaking.

Those long NWs are so exhausting and it can be tough to figure out if they are UT or OT. They can also be developmental. Have a look at the wonder weeks website to see if she's in a developmental leap - they often cause long NWs but pass once the leap is over.

Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 01, 2016, 10:39:07 am
thanks for your reply. I have the WW app and she isn't actually in a wonder week at the moment. in fact when she was the last time she slept through the night a few times. having said that she is trying hard to crawl, so maybe thats working on her.
yesterday was like this:
I woke her at 7am
first nap 11am, woke her at 11.45
second nap 3.45, woke her at 4.50
BT 7.50, asleep by 8.05pm
it actually worked out, no long NW's, she slept till 6.10am this morning. so I really think she needs a long day and short enough naps to preserve a good night. the only thing I noticed is that she only gets now 12 hrs overall sleep, can this be enough? also its always so hard to wake her from naps, poor chicken, she wants to sleep much longer...
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 02, 2016, 01:54:05 am
If she is LSN, 12 hours may be enough.

Have you ever just totally followed her lead for a day or 2 to see what happens? Sometimes LOs can surprise us and do some monster naps and still have good nights. How the nights go will tell you whether or not to keep capping naps or if she's ok with a bit more day sleep.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 07, 2016, 17:26:13 pm
yes I have and then the NW's are even longer. the problem is to fit everything into the day with her long A times. I give you an example.
if she woke at 7 she would go down for the first nap around 11, if I don't cap the nap she would sleep 1.5 to 2 hrs.
second nap 16.45/17.15pm for an hour, so till 18.15 what time would I have BT then? I don't fancy BT at 9pm. so I really think I have to go for the long A time and a CN of 20/30 mins in the afternoon. or only 1 nap. I have tried it all and we still have NW's. I think she is in the 9 months sleep regression and I really hope once she comes out of it the NW's will stop.
has anyone noticed bad sleep around 9 months? so exhausted from the NW's even though I take turns with DH but it takes me such a long time to fall asleep once she is finally down again...
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 08, 2016, 01:51:40 am
There's a few others on here that have hit some bumps at nine months.

What about capping that am nap at 30 min and bringing the pm nap forward a bit so she has more A time to BT? Maybe something like this:
WU: 7
S: 10:30-11 (if you can get her down that early - Would  a walk or car ride work?)
S: 2-3:30
BT: 7:30/8
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 18, 2016, 11:21:04 am
ok, so our long NW's are back after a break of 2 weeks.
in the last couple of weeks my DD had loads of small NW's, like she was OT, she was sick as well and needed more sleep. hence I let her sleep longer for her naps too.
since she is better she sleeps overall better but wakes up in the middle of the night for one long chatty NW. so, Im trying to cap naps again and see if that helps. she always naps well, if I let her 2 hrs or I previously mentioned If I let her the NW's are going on for hours instead of only 1 hr. Im a bit at loss, she needs a long A time and its difficult to fit everything in the day. Im inclined to go cold turkey and move to 1 nap. she is LSN. could I try this and if things don't work out go back to 2 naps? I mean whats the worse that can happen? OT I suspect...

our day yesterday:
woker her up at 7am
1st nap 10.30, woke her at 11.20
second nap 3.40, woke her at 5pm
BT 7.45,fell asleep at 7.55pm
her last A time to BT is the shortest, if I keep it too long she becomes OT and can't settle.

any advice?

Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: trimbler on March 18, 2016, 21:47:51 pm
Hi there, you mentioned the idea of a long A (you mean first A? Then presumably long nap?) and a short pm CN, then you said you'd tried everything and still get long NWs ((hugs)) - so you've already tried pushing that first A, letting her have a long nap and a short CN later in the afternoon to help her get to BT? What happened then?
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 19, 2016, 01:44:46 am
I think Trimbler's suggestion of a long first nap and short pm CN is a good one if you haven't tried that.

Does she need you for the NWs or does she just chat? If she's just chatting and doesn't need you, I wouldn't worry too much about it. NWs like that are often developmental.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 19, 2016, 16:10:54 pm
thanks for your replies. initially she just chats but it doesn't last long and then she starts crying on and off. she is also in my room, so I can't sleep when she is awake. so it is annoying. and I think she does need me to settle her.
yes we had the long first nap for a while but lately I cannot get her down for the second nap anymore so I switched it around for the last couple of days. last night was good. she woke a couple of times but I was able to shush pat her back to sleep. will keep going with that ands what happens. so would you think its too soon to go only for 1 nap?
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: trimbler on March 19, 2016, 20:35:20 pm
Ah ok, in that case waking her from the first nap would be the way to get her to take a second nap. Classically, you'd gradually shorten the first nap further and hope that the second nap would get longer and earlier, until she was only doing a morning CN and a nice long pm nap, and finally drop the morning nap. However I think some LOs do end up going straight from 2x 1h naps to one long nap, I just don't have experience of that myself so tbh not sure how that might look or what to advise if that's what you'd want to do. Perhaps Lily will have a better feel for that, or we could ask around if you like?

Oh the other thing might be that perhaps some days she'll do a nice long nap and then not get down for a pm CN but you could do EBT instead; on other days she may surprise you and take a short CN. Many mums (and quite possibly some dads too ;) ) have ended up APOPing a pm CN just to get through this transition.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 20, 2016, 02:08:02 am
Not sure about dropping straight to one nap but there are a few moms on here with experience doing that (they had LSN LOs). I can ask them to pop on here if you'd like.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: H7 on March 20, 2016, 11:08:58 am
Sorry for jumping on the thread with no advice but a question ...

What does APOPing mean? I've seen this on a few threads now.

Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: trimbler on March 20, 2016, 14:41:49 pm
No problem - APOP = accidental parenting on purpose ;D ie where you're doing something intentionally which you know might create a habit but you're doing it for a specific reason, eg to overcome OT; to help a LO through illness or pain; to get a little CN in somewhere which you know LO needs now but will soon drop, so it doesn't matter that you're creating a prop because it'll be gone soon anyway ;)
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 21, 2016, 20:11:42 pm
yes lily_layne if you could ask the moms with LSN babies about their experience of going straight to one nap that would be great.
we had 2 good nights with a weird routine:
wake up 6.45
1st nap 10.30-11.15 (woke her)
2nd nap 3.15 - 4.50 (woke her)
BT 7.50, asleep by 8pm. no major NW's.

last night however on the very same routine was bad. she literally woke every hour and needed a quick shush pat to go back to sleep. then she woke at 5.40am. I kept the same naps today in length, she was quite tired and BT was early, 6.50 in cot, it took 50 mins of hard crying and eventually I fed her again and she settled. I have a couple of questions here: after a bad night, do I compensate for the bad night and allow longer naps? as a result BT would be later, like the normal time 8pm? this would make her day more than 14 hours? Im at loss with her. she is either OT or UT. also do we have many NW's because I leave her in my bed after the night feed? I started doing this because I was so terrified that she has a long NW when I transfer her to her cot. but has this resulted in her waking up more often? If so Im happy to stop this and sleep train again. I just can't handle those hours of NW's. DH has to work and me too in 6 weeks time. some of the short NW's she settles herself. she is also an independent sleeper for naps and BT usually. oh and last night she sat up a few time, she just mastered doing this. so maybe still partially developmental at least??
I really would like to have this sleep issue resolved!
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 22, 2016, 02:12:55 am
it took 50 mins of hard crying and eventually I fed her again and she settled.
Did you try patting or rocking while she was crying? I find sometimes a quick rock or walk and then putting DS down will calm him enough to settle him to sleep.

When she woke every hour was she in with you? If she was, I think it could be a habit forming or it could also just be that you are nearer to her so you react to every sound. If you want to have her sleeping on her own, I would tackle it now before you go back to work.

Sorry, I'm really tired tonight and my brain is sluggish so I have no advice for your routine but I will put the call out for other LSN mamas to take a look.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on March 22, 2016, 03:28:30 am
Hi there! My DD3 is LSN too (and I am totally the queen of doing things cold turkey lol!).

A couple of things that jump out at me is that you are waking her in the morning and after both naps so she never has a chance to tack on (I do wonder on a crappy night if you let her sleep in, did one nap only and ebt would you get a better night??). Also the fact that she is in bed with you some of the time makes me think some of it is just habit combined with perhaps a need for less or differently organized daytime sleep. Do you plan to keep her in the room with you (or perhaps that is the only option I suppose!).

I can say that with all 3 of my kids I jumped to one nap.cold turkey and it worked great (they are all similarly spirited kids who cope well with OT). DD3 though took the cake and went to one nap before 8 months old, and DD1 & 2 who were average sleepers made the jump at 11/12 months or so, so to me your lo could be ready for that jump. 4.5 hrs A time was about the range when I decided to go for it. DD3 never did do the long one nap (2 hr max with 11 hr nights) but it helped keep her nights from getting too short.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 22, 2016, 10:24:09 am
thanks girls for taking the time to respond.
I haven't been waking her the last few nights since she woke up early by herself. but I do wake her from naps because when I don't we get the long NW's. it seems that she wants to compensate for the short nights by napping long but thats not what I want. I don't think we can get rid of the NW's that go on for hours if I allow her to have uncapped naps for as long as she wants. if I let her she would nap one nap at least of 1.5/2hrs and the other one longish too. but in my experience this makes the nights worse. on the other hand if she has capped naps and becomes OT she has many short NW's which are equally difficult to handle. last night however was good. when she eventually settled at 7.40pm I gave her a DF around 9.30 and she slept then till 1.40, quick feed and slept till 6.10. yes, of course I am responding to every sound, just out of fear that a waking would result in a long NW. we are planning to move her out very shortly but we don't ave her room ready yet. plus I read somewhere that the night feed should happen in her room, that won't be possible, so I would need toffee her in gybed (she only feeds lieing down) and then go into her bedroom with her. our A time ranges from 3.45 in the morning to 4.5hr in the afternoon. so I guess she is very soon ready for 1 nap. I might try in a week or so, by then she is 10 months and it could work. the thing is I have many friends who know nothing about BW and good sleep habits and then move their babies to 1 nap or their babies automatically get into that routine in daycare and they do all fine. so maybe Im overthinking this whole thing.
@MasynSpencerElliotte, your DD3 still got 13 hrs in a day. we are currently getting between 12 and 13 hrs. more often than not only 12. maybe she is super LSN or she is just not getting the sleep because of me capping naps and her waking at night etc. LOL I must add she is very happy during the day, gives me no tired signs most of the time...
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on March 22, 2016, 15:29:44 pm
The 13 hours was very short the time she was 10 months I was capping her only nap and we ditched the nap entirely by 22 months. Now at 31 months we finally get 11.5 hour nights! When I say to let her have a chance to tack on I mean either morning wake up or one of the naps uncapped (easier of course on one nap only to allow a longer nap!).

Hmm the feeding lying down is a tough one - do you think you could try the df sitting in a chair in her room? Is she close to dropping her night feeds?
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 22, 2016, 20:19:35 pm
mhm from a very young age she got into that habit of only feeding lying down and now she doesn't feed in any other way, bites instead etc. but I haven't tried for a DF, so I could try that. Im just conscious that if I let her have 1 nap of lets say 2 hrs (uncapped) and the other one was also 45 mins that this would rob from night sleep, hence only a 9 hr night or something which could mean NW's or very early wake up. how can she need so little sleep??
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on March 22, 2016, 20:59:51 pm
Some kids are just built that way I guess!  My older kids (7.5 and 9.5) sleep almost as much as my toddler! If you think an uncapped nap would a long one I would keep the catnap much shorter if possible. We did a long am and short pm nap before jumping to one nap though as the first nap was always our best nap.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 22, 2016, 21:16:08 pm
we did the long am nap too and then a shorter pm nap but lately she has been refusing to go down for the second nap. thats why I switched it around. both naps would be good and long if I let her. she just needs a lot of A time to go down well for the nap. also, if she has a very short CN in the pm she gets easily overtired.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 24, 2016, 12:28:50 pm
ok after another bad night we decided to sleep train again this weekend as DD ends up in my bed after the night feed. she is 10 months now and still gets a DF too. so I wonder should we eliminate the night feed that usually happens between 1am and 3am or keep it but make sure that there is no APOP going on, such as rocking back to sleep or co-sleeping? she has slept through around 5 nights when she was 8 months which would indicate to me that she is capable of doing so. I am thinking of there is no routine NF there is no reason for her to wake up (of course I know that they wake up regardless anyway) but maybe after a few nights she would get used to not getting fed and wakes less often as a result. she is breastfed and eats solids, notch though as we do BLW. any ideas? cold turkey with the NF or feed and back to sleep on her own in cot? TIA
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 25, 2016, 01:52:16 am
If you want to drop the NF, I would go cold turkey. I did that with my DD around 9 months. I just patted her on the back and let her know I was there. She did cry quite a bit but I just stayed with her. It only took a few nights and then she was done feeding at night.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 25, 2016, 10:10:59 am
for how long did your DD cry? I read somewhere here that if there is still no sleep after 45 mins of crying to go ahead and feed as they will be hungry by then (or thirsty from the crying) but surely that defeats the purpose? my DD is quite capable of crying for that long and longer... soIm a bit worried. but at the same time I don't think she needs the feed...
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on March 25, 2016, 21:46:08 pm
You could do water in a sippy if you think she is thirsty...we started putting a spill proof sippy in DD1's bed around this age.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: lily_layne on March 26, 2016, 01:48:56 am
Water in a sippy is a good idea. If memory serves, DD cried 10-15 minutes the first night and then less than that each night after.
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: zissi on March 30, 2016, 12:44:39 pm
I will try water in a sippy cup. we haven't sleep trained yet because on saturday I started a new routine, DD is now on 1 nap only and sleeps 2.5 hrs which is great. she handles the A time of 5 hrs really well, would go for much longer if I let her. she never shows tired signs. however, our long NW's continue despite the new routine. Im at loss and totally shattered.
last day was like that:
WU 6.30
nap 11.40-2.05
BT 7.30, fell asleep straight away.
no OT wakings after BT. woke the first time around 9.30 but DH settled easily. gave her a DF at 10.30. woke again at 12, couldn't settle and I was so tired that I fed her. then she woke at 2, settled herself. then at 4.30 at which I fed. she was awake then till 6am and eventually fell asleep and slept till 7am when she woke up because of the alarm clock. are these NW's still developmental (she mastered crawling now) or prop related,since I feed her back to sleep or attempt at least. It can't be routine related I don't think because I try all different routines and it didn't make a difference. the only time she didn't have it was with very little day time sleep. should I cap the nap? please help. I really need some sleep!!!
Title: Re: night wakings again
Post by: MasynSpencerElliotte on March 30, 2016, 21:03:13 pm
10 months old is a tad early for one nap but I would give a routine more time to see what shakes out. How long have you stuck with any of the previous routines? I think the feeding prop could be a big part of the nw's, that perhaps they are happening due to other factors but she just isn't always able to get back to sleep herself.