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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Sharwellstudio on March 07, 2016, 01:22:32 am
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A few questions before we get started training our nearly 5 month old. He hit the 4 month sleep regression about a week before he hit the 4 month mark and he is just not getting back on track. After re-reading Tracy's "solves all your problems" book I see I need to get him on the 4 hour EASY... I've been sticking to the 3 hour.
Here's our story: DS is breastfed and decidedly "touchy". When sleep got bad around the 7 week mark the advice I got was "do whatever works". What worked was putting him in a baby carrier to wear him for naps (as I am looking after my 2.5 year old as well) and for night I had him start in the bed with me and finish the night in a rock in play after the first feeding. He is medicated for reflux and the angle of the rock n play has helped him as well. I want to transition him to his crib (with a wedge) for nights and naps. My toddler is going to Grandma's house while I start the training at the end of this week.
He is swaddled at night and for any nap he isn't in the carrier. I don't nurse him to sleep as I have been trying to do EASY since birth.
He has never slept in his crib
He uses a pacifier for naps and start of the night because there was less fighting and crying that way. He has been consistent with it for about a month now.
We have established a solid bedtime routine but a big change is the location--from my room to his. Currently I walk and shush to get him fully asleep before putting him in my bed. If he isn't fully asleep he wakes up within 10-20 min.
We do naps and nights with white noise.
Questions:
1) Should I tackle Nightime and naps simultaneously? Or work on night and keep day sleeps as good as we can get them in the carrier so he isn't OT for night?
2) Ditch the pacifier so we can do PU/PD? Cold turkey? I saw there was a gentle ween approach but the link was broken. Anyone have that? He likes to suck on his hands so if we ditched the swaddle and went to a zipadeezip he may not need the paci.
3) I feed him 3x between 10pm-5:30am. He wakes more frequently than that but doesn't want to eat nor nurse for comfort. Will one dream feed suffice? 11:00? He typically wakes around 10:30 or 11:30 to eat and again at 3:30 and then I feed him at 5:00 to try to get him back to sleep until 7:00.
4) Any other advice for a touchy baby who only has eyes for me? I do 90% of his care because my husband works and tends to our toddler primarily. I'm a bit scared to do this training!!!!
Thank you
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Hi and welcome to BW! I am off to bed so I don't have time for a proper reply - your title caught my eye as my DD2 was a very touchy baby (and a total mommy's girl as well!). Just two quick things - what is the current routine in EAS format and also just an fyi for you that bf info has changed a lot since the books were written (but of course with Tracy passing they have never been updated). Many babies are not ready for a 4 hr routine at 4 months when they are ebf and a few nf's is still the norm at this age. It becomes tricky as their A time may increase but they still need frequent feeds - we did top up feeds before naps to combat this.
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Thank you for the quick reply. Yes, he is touchy and a mama's boy! Thanks for the info on the EBF babes. He doesn't seem ready to be on the 4 hour, but last week I moved him to about 1:45 awake time. Here is 2 consecutive days last week (the first is fairly atypical as he took 2 long naps which resulted in an early bedtime and got 15 hours of sleep in 24, the second is more typical with 13 hours of sleep):
*NW= times he woke but I didn't feed him
Wake up: 7:15
E: 7:30 x15 min
A:
S: 9:00-9:47 (0:47)
E: 10:10 x12min
A:
S: 11:45-1:05 (1:20)
E: 1:10 x15 min
A:
E: 2:20 x10min--a top off like you said
S: 2:55-4:30 (1:35) wow!!!
E: 4:45 x10min
A:
E: 6:15 x15min
S: 6:40 asleep for bed time (a bit early, but a catnap would have pushed us to a late bedtime)
NW #1: 7:47, picked up, shushed and walked
S: 7:50-10:20
E: 10:20 (x20min)
S: 10:40-11:47
NW #2: 11:47, picked up, replaced paci, walked
S: 11:50-1:20
E: 1:20 (x20min)
S:1:40
NW#3: 1:49, picked up, replaced paci
S: 1:50-3:50
E: 3:50-4:20 (x30min)
S: 4:20
NW#4: 5:10, picked up, shushed, patted
S: 5:12-6:00
E: 6:00(x30min)
S: 6:30-6:40
Wake up: 6:40
E: 7:40 x10min
A:
S: 9:10-9:55 (0:45)
E: 10:15 x13min
A:
S: 11:45-12:55 (0:50)
E: 1:05 x8min
A:
S: 2:35-3:10 (0:35)
E: 3:55 x16min
A:
S: 4:55-5:22 (0:27)
E: 5:40 x8min
A:
E: 7:00 x 17min
S: 7:25-10:25 (3:00) bedtime
E: 10:25 x16min
S: 10:57-12:37 (1:40)
E: 12:40 x17min
S: 12:57-2:19 (1:22)
NW: 2:19
S: 2:23-4:10 (1:47)
E: 4:15 x18min... couldn't get him to stay asleep for any amount of time until 5:10!
S: 5:10-6:00 picked him up and held him
S: held from 6:00-6:30, placed in pack n play at 6:30
Wake up: 6:48
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So, can this BW technique be successful in a tpuchy 5 month old baby? Or am I just setting myself up for disappointment and way more hard work? If I can't use a pacifier and he still needs to be swaddled with both arms down, what will he use to self soothe? I tried the zipadeezip last night and he never got into a deep sleep. Woke aftrrt 40 minutes freaking out! Finally swaddled him and he calmed down and went right to sleep.
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I have actually never used pu/pd only shh/pat...my kids are all spirited (DD2 was touchy/spirited) and I just knew it would never work as they were very stubborn kids. So I went with a gentler approach of shh/pat and gradual withdrawal. I think current SIDS guidlines mention not weaning a soother until after 6 months (but I need to check that info as I am not 100% certain). I had success with BW while using soothers with two of my kids but we spent a lot of time in the daytime teaching them to replug.
One thing that jumps out is the A times - have a look here Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! as your lo seem pretty low for his age. He may be getting naps that are short from being undertired and then getting overtired from no restorative naps...which in turn could affect the night sleep.
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Thanks Heidi,
"Gentle withdrawal" for the soother or shush pat? How old were your kids when you attempted shush pat?
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I use gradual withdrawal in combo with shh/pat...the soother we kept until 2.5 with DD1 and DD3 is 2.5 now and still uses hers. DD2 sucked her thumb.
DD2 was about 3 weeks old when I started using shh/pat - but I used white noise instead of shhing because it seemed to help her more. I gradually did less and less patting, eventually just using the weight of my hand. DD3 didn't like the patting part so I just sat by her crib (we did have a bit of a hand holding prop around age 1 that I had to wean lol). DD1 was an angel baby when it came to sleep until she started teething lol.
I would say up those A times to see if you can get more restful naps - norm at this age is 2 longer naps and a catnap. Still normal for an ebf baby to have a few feeds at night at this age too though!
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Okeedokee. I will work on longer wake times. But if he is overtired or has a short nap doesn't that shorten the wake times? He seems to get fussy around the 1:45 mark. Anything past 2 results in a meltdown typically. We'll see what I can figure out....
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Sorry I suppose I should have mentioned...start with the first A and see how it goes. When I did this with DD2 at this age (she was touchy and also showed tired signs) someone on here pointed out that tired signs can be boredom signs or also learned - ie the lo is used to a certain nap time so gets fussy at the same time. DD2 very much liked to run by a strict schedule not just a routine so I kept the last bit of A time super low key to extend - I walked up and down our hallway singing (badly!) songs from disney movies lol. Maybe try 2 hours consistenly for a few days and then go from there?
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Ok then, tomorrow first A time 2 hours. Today got off to a bad start. He wouldn't go back to sleep after the 5:30 wake up... Apparently needing to go poo throws everything off. He wouldn't sleep or eat. Maybe we are back on track now.
Btw, I love that you named your daughter Elliotte. If we had had a girl I would have been pulling hard to name her that.
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DD2 very much liked to run by a strict schedule
My touchy one did too. Sensitive to both OT and OS, but with a good solid routine, slept really well. Also needed a long wind down.
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Btw, I love that you named your daughter Elliotte. If we had had a girl I would have been pulling hard to name her that.
Thanks! A good friend suggested it too me and then a lovely lady on here had the exact same suggestion so it was meant to be. DH did not like it at first lol.
I used A times and tired signs to a point and then figured out timings and ran by the clock until she had either crap naps or nw/ew and then tweaked until I sorted a new routine. I swear she could tell time!
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I used A times and tired signs to a point and then figured out timings and ran by the clock until she had either crap naps or nw/ew and then tweaked until I sorted a new routine. I swear she could tell time!
Ditto! Interestingly, he had a freakishly early understanding of days of the week and concepts of time, so it had its positives :)
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DD2 very much liked to run by a strict schedule
My touchy one did too. Sensitive to both OT and OS, but with a good solid routine, slept really well. Also needed a long wind down.
Yeah I think I might need a long wind down and total darkness when I finally get him into his crib. Did you all pick up and shush pat when the cries became escalated? Did you stay still and not sway?
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DD2 liked to be held completely still and very tightly! No rocking/swaying/bouncing at all. Oh and forgot to mention along with our white noise we blacked out the room completely.
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Dark room, no swaying for us. But bear in mind you need to do what works for your baba. There might be things he likes that mine didn't :) however, being touchy, I'd say it's likely he would prefer less stimulation, so no swaying. Your LO is nearly 5 mos - around then I would've been holding in the dark, with a gentle sh-pat, and when he was relaxing, transferring into the cot and keeping up the sh-pat, winding it down gently til it stops. Just keeping a hand on him helped too.
We never used white noise, I've heard good things, but LO and I are both sensitive to noise so seemed like it would stimulate rather than relax, iyswim.
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Was all set to get off on the right foot this morning and then 5:20 hit and he was wide awake. After trying everything to get him back to sleep and failing miserably I put him back down and did a dramatic wake up at 7:00. Got him in the carrier for a nap at 7:20 and he was asleep without protest. So 2 hour A time but not an ideal time of day. He is waking at the 45 min mark so I am trying to get him back to sleep.
Opting for nap training in his own room and in the crib instead of nighttime training starting tomorrow. I think it is backwards from what experts recommend but I am having too much anxiety about nights in my sleep-deprived, emotional state. Getting naps in his bed will help me be present for my other son. Wish me luck...
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Tracy always said that night time follows day sleep - get the day sleep right and the nights follow. You're not doing it backwards!
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Interesting! Thanks, Anne. I sure hope Tracy is correct!
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Hi there,
I replied on your other thread about the rock and play as well, but only had a sec. Fussing baby!
I would definitely try to just get the naps in the crib and not worry about night sleep yet. I've actually purposely not weaned off the rock and play bc we'll be going out of town in a couple weeks and it's so portable! I'd much prefer her to sleep in it until then and work on getting her out when we get back.
My DD1 was very touchy/spirited. I'm still sorting out DD2, but she def. reminds me an awful lot of her sister! What has helped - a looong "pre-wind down." I put DD on my hip in the sling and walk around for a good 20+ mins before a nap. Did this with DD1 and often do it now. It helps them slowly unwind and I try to get a few things done around the house so I have more *me* time during her nap. With both, I do black out blinds and loud, rumbly white noise for sleeps. DD1 was swaddled for ages and DD2 is still swaddled now. I thought I *should* wean it, but she's just not ready yet. DD2 is not quite an independent sleeper yet, so for her WDs, I rock her until very drowsy, then set her down in either the rock and play or crib and pat her the rest of the way off. She is able to SS sometimes during NWs, so I do feel every little bit of practice helps.
Hope this helps a bit.
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Excellent grace annes mommy!
I appreciate both responses. I typically wear my LO for naps and have just been plopping him in there right about sleep time. This week I have increased the time he is in there to see if he'd get drowsy and I think he does. ( when I wear him for naps I use loud brown noise,which is lower than white noise and really calms him down, and use a small blanket over the top to block out visual stimulation).
I really need him to nap in his crib and get SS down! I know it will take time and a lot of trial and error to get things pretty good.
I wonder should I start fresh tomorrow with naps or try later today once my other son leaves for Grandma's.
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Do whatever feels right for you. Is there a nap you think he settles easiest for? For us, it used to be the first nap, so I would try to settle that one in the crib. If it was a short nap, I'd let her catch up in the ergo for the next nap. For some, they find a cold turkey approach easiest. But for me and my girls, I've preferred to do things more gradually. Starting with one nap, then all naps, then night sleep. You might not see results as quickly this way, but they will come.
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Thank you again. Since I have the time to dedicate to him and this process for the next 3 days I am going to try all naps in there. Maybe nights in the rock n play, but in his room, or maybe the crib. He has been with us in our room since the start. I think I should camp out in his room so I don't have to make the trek for the first few nights. Thanks for your attention and suggestions. I'm sure I'll be crawling back here this weekend for encouragement and to provide updates.
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Best of luck.
Please read up on SIDS guidelines in your area - the recommendation is generally that babies should share a room, up to 6 mo I think. I had my LOs (incl the touchy one!) in my room til over 12 mos. What we did was alternate where the grown-ups slept! But that's another story. :)
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:: UPDATE :: UPDATE :: UPDATE ::
Hi everyone. I started to put LO down drowsy but awake last Thursday afternoon in his crib for the first time ever. He went to sleep with very little fuss and stayed asleep for more than an hour and 15 min. IT WAS AMAZING. He was swaddled with arms down and had a pacifier. I should mention this is the first time (and only time) that he had age appropriate naps too. Took 2 1.5 hour naps in the carrier earlier that day and had 2 hours between each nap. He put himself to sleep for nighttime too but then was up 20 min later and every 1:20 thereafter. IT WAS AWFUL. (I'm not even night training for crying out loud!!!!!)
Each subsequent night has been terrible but all have been different. I think we are finding what works so he can soothe to sleep for naps. (Long wind down: in the carrier for at least 10 min, soft music then paci and swaddle, white noise on, curtains drawn, walk and sing and put him in before he is asleep, pat and shh if he fusses--today he did so good with little murmurings for a minute before he dozed off and I did very little pats and shhs)...
Then is all goes wonky! He is waking between 20-43 min and hasn't gone back to sleep. This morning he woke happy and still had the paci... After 24 minutes! I went in when he started to fuss after he lost the pacifier 12 min later. He only settled when I replaced the pacifier. Then he "slept" 20 more but he was just kicking and tossing and wriggling in light sleep. After 20 min he spit out the pacifier and screamed.
I don't know whether to shorten A time when he doesnt get restful sleep. Do people have success with that? I am always second guessing if he is UT or OT. Unfortunately I can't take the 20 + min to resettle him after screaming since I have my 2 year old to look after.
One issue we have is nights and early morning wakings. He has been up way more often during the night since we started this "soothe yourself to sleep for naps" training and he still wakes in the 5 o'clock hour daily. Sometimes he will nurse and fall asleep after 5:00, but it is a great challenge for me to stay still while he nurses for a long while and continue to not move while he sleeps. If I move him he will wake. Very light sleeper in the AM hours!!!! So we have only made it to the 7:00 wake up one time. He is usually awake way before that. This sets us up for needing more naps and/or an early BT. Many times an early BT (5:30) isn't possible in this household so most nights (4 of 5) he has been awake 3 hours before bed. Is there something else I should be doing? We tried late catnaps in the carrier and he wouldn't fall asleep.
There may be some growth spurting going on, as he is eating more frequently and at night seems to be camped out on the boob! Or is he just working me so that he can be with me?
What was working before this nap training was that he would start the night co-sleeping and I would move him after the first nursing session. Now he doesn't sleep after the nursing sessions! He wakes either immediately upon putting him down or within 15 minutes.
The pacifier is an issue. He does great with it to start but then needs it to resettle. So I am the idiot on the other end replugging all the time!!!
I am exhausted. I feel my happiness and mood depends on LO's sleep and I'm trying so hard. Someone want to help me tackle this? I'm committed to continuing what we have done for naps for another 3 days before trying something different. Nights are a nightmare and I have no solutions at this time.
Our goals:
Sleep in crib for naps --CHECK!
Fall asleep on his own--CHECK!
Put himself back to sleep when he wakes before appropriate time
Put himself to sleep for BT-- CHECK!
Sleep between nursing sessions at night (only wake 2-3 times like he did before the regression)
Sleep in his own bed all night
Sleep after 5am until 7:00ish
Thanks!
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Hi hun,
First off - the fact that your guy is getting the hang of self settling is HUGE! Yay! to both of you!!!
Is he sleeping in his crib now at night? Or is he still in the rock and play or in your room?
Sorry your nights are so unsettled. My hunch is he's a bit OT. But, do you want to post what your day is looking like now? Like this:
Wake up - what time
E - what time/how long
A - how long from eyes open to eyes shut
S - what time, how long,
etc.
It is possible the paci is a bit of a prop. But it could also just be a timing issue with the short naps and night waking.
If you get a short nap, yes, you may want to shorten the next A time. Does he give pretty clear sleepy cues? If not, you'll probably want to watch the clock and shorten the A time by 15 or 30 mins. It's trial and error, really.
It's definitely possible he's having a bit of a growth spurt. Also possible he's doing a bit of comfort nursing. Hard to say just yet, but once we see your whole day it may give a better picture.
I know it's really easy to get caught up with sleep, but do celebrate the tiny successes! You've had some pretty big ones already!! Things will improve. Especially with these touchy guys, it just takes a little extra patience and problem solving. You're doing great!
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Thank you!
Yes, over the moon on falling asleep on his own. ;D I thought it would solve so many problems! It hasn't yet but I think there are lots of other factors in play.
He doesn't give great sleep cues. I tend to notice it when he starts to get really fidgety or fussy. So I have been watching the clock primarily. I have been using the 2-2-2-2 "rule".
For nights I have transitioned our routine to his room and he falls asleep in his bed. But for the last 3 nights I have been unable to get him to fall back to sleep after his waking in the early evening hours. He screams and if I do PUPD he cries again as soon as I put him back. The other night I tried 7 or 8 times. He went right to sleep in my arms when I left him there long enough. So he came into bed with me. During the night i try to place him in the rock n play near my bed but he hasn't been taking too kindly to it and is awake 0-15 min later.
Here's a schedule:
Wake up: 7:27
E: 8:31, 11 min (had been sleep nursing for an hour before wake up)
A: 7:27-9:26 (59min)
S:9:26-10:22 (55min)
E: 11:00, 15 min and 12:20 short bout adding up to 15 min
A:10:22-1:04 (2:42) ;(. Worked with the plan for more than 45 min and he screamed. I was so distraught. Got him to sleep in my arms and put him in the rocking rock n play.
S: 1:04-1:49 (44min), then 1:52-2:08 (16 min) after my intervention
E: 2:19, 8 min and 3:05, 11min
A:2:08-4:47 (2:39) again we struggled to get him down. I don't think he had a long enough wind down time because my toddler arrived home overtired and was whining and crying around this time.
S: 4:47-5:13 (25min) in carrier after I gave up
E: 5:20, 9 min and 6:30, 12 min
A: 5:13-6:59 (1:46) til BT
S: 6:59-7:45, 7:55-9:30
E: 9:30, 10min
S: 9:40-10:27
E:10:27 , 10min
S:10:40-11:48
E:11:48, 12 min
S: 12:01-1:40
E: 1:45, 20min
S: 2:08-4:08
E: 4:08 (?) nursed in side lying so I could sleep
S: 5:53-6:03 nursed and slept
S: 6:24-6:48
I feel that was the roughest day and a terrible night. Growth spurt with all the eating!!! Too many wake ups.
Wake up 6:48
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Oof, that is a rough night! Looks like he was up every hour or 2 to nurse? That's seeming more of a prop/comfort thing than a growth spurt. Is anything bothering him? teeth? a cold? have we talked about reflux? Here, with that many NWs, I'd be thinking something is bothering him.
He may be confused if you are going back and forth between wanting him to settle in his crib but then you bring him to your bed. I know it's so so hard when you're tired, but if you really want him only in his crib, you will need to be really consistent and probably get DH on board to help you settle. It's your choice, though. I know plenty of BWs who APOP or cosleep until later on and just try to follow the EAS pattern. (Full disclosure - I'm a total APOPer, so may not be the best to guide you thru in that regard.)
A times for this age are in the 2 to 2.5 hour range. I'm wondering if that first nap he was a bit UT, but then he ended up OT by the next nap and for the rest of the day? Hard to tell really, but with all the NWs, I'd definitely lean toward OT. Here, a wakeup 30 or 40 mins after bed is OT.
Keep in mind too, that he's gone thru a big change by sleeping in the crib. It will take a while (esp. as a touchy) for things to settle down. As I said, consistency is important - especially, i think for touchy LOs. But I would also want to rule out any discomfort before anything else.
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especially, i think for touchy LOs
Absolutely. Things can be quite black and white with touchies.
I would also want to rule out any discomfort before anything else.
Totally agree with this too.
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especially, i think for touchy LOs
Absolutely. Things can be quite black and white with touchies.
I would also want to rule out any discomfort before anything else.
Totally agree with this too.
Agree with both. I sleep trained my touchy girl from 3 weeks old (was a very gradual process of using shh/pat because of her age - have honestly never used pu/pd with any of mine) and it took quite some time before we got anywhere...but once it was done and she finally slept on her own (with a blip around 4 - 5 months of 45 naps and ew) we never really had to do much more exceptngo back to a bit of.patting during illness etc.
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Hi again. Thanks for the info. I decided he seemed more uncomfy at night and even after eating during the day (more spit up and some that came out his nose!) that I called the doc and had his reflux med dose increased yesterday--had 3 doses of the increase and already seems better. I also bolstered the crib wedge more so he is less reclined. It isn't as inclined as the rock n play but I think it will help. Thank you both for thinking for it too. Reaffirms I am not marking up his reflux.
By some small miracle I got him to sleep this morning just after 6 after he woke at 4:45. Just laid with him and did gentle pats and he fell asleep for 45 min so we actually got do a 7am wake up schedule. He went down for his first nap with 1:57 A time and the same for nap 2... He slept an hour and 20 for first nap with no intervention and 1:30 for the second. !!!!!!!!! Amazing.
Maybe nights with follow suit. I will keep you posted.
If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions though... what do I do with an early wake up? Do I still follow the 2-2-2-2 or do I shoot for a 9:00 nap to start the day?
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Glad you got a meds increase. Here, it usually takes about a week to see full results.
I usually try to resettle any NWs before 6am. If you can't resettle, I might try to push the As just enough to get us thru the day but not so much you're dealing with OT. If it's a regular thing, you'll have to look at the bigger picture - is he chronically OT, is there a routine issue, is it a self-settling issue, or is his clock just prone to early rising.
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Ok so naps have been pretty good, considering his age and his totally new environment. We have some days of 1.5 hr naps and some with 38 min that extend another 15 with my help (shh/ pat). So 3-4 naps a day. Is there a time when he wont need my help to extend naps?
Nights are definitely improved since med increase. He is back to waking 3x to eat (11:00ish, 2or 3:00ish and 5:30ish) and no other random night wakings. Still having a hard time getting him back to sleep after that 5:30 wake up. Also, We haven't had a change at all in his sleep pattern after bedtime... Been this way since early December... Wakes within 20-60 min of going to bed. Doesn't matter if it is 2 hours A time or 3 hours A time. I can shh/pat and do a few PUPD to get him back to sleep but he's up again shortly there after. Still pulling him in bed with me cause I'm still recovering from all the prevucrazy nights. We will do nighttime training soon. 1-2-4 weeks... Whenever I can garner the courage!!!! Suggestions on how to go about doing it? Thinking of dada doing a bottle dream feed early in the night (10 or 10:30) and then I feed him at 2 or 3 and then refuse to feed until 7ish.