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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: JennVanessa1083 on March 12, 2016, 13:24:25 pm
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Hello!
I have a thread on the naps board around his naps but was hoping to get a perspective on the NW front last month. DS is now 9 months old. For awhile we were on a good 7:30-7:30 routine and we extended As to address EMW. Last week or so he's been waking 4 times a night. Part of it I believe is OT in the early part of night (wakings before 3 hours after BT) but he's also starting to wake for longer periods of time. He usually wakes up for a fed around 11-12 and 3-4ish (when BT was 7ish). He usually would go straight back to sleep. Now he just lays there wide awake or will start sitting up and looking around then start fussing- no crying usually. He's already mastered sitting up weeks ago. He is teething his top teeth which have notably been bothering him.
I guess my question is what's the NW about?
This is the routine from yesterday; our EASY is a bit of a mess bc of teething (he's been extra confusing on when he's tired and has been sleeping erratically):
NW 10:39, 1:40, 4:15, 6:58 am
Total 10.5
WU 8:21 am
E 8:30
A
E 9:45 (solids and BM)
A
S 11:48- 12:31 pm(A 3:27; self settle; cried a little during wind down. Probably teething pain bc kept biting on zippy)
E 12/33
S 12:41-1:46 pm
A
E 2:45
A
E 3:45 (solids and BM)
A
S 5:16-5:52 pm (A 3:30; while I was walking around got really drowsy then fell asleep in crib)
E 5:53
A
E 7:30 (solids)
A
BF:BT 8:58 (A 3:06; Miscalculated BT)
NW 11:55, 12:22, 3:54, 6:30
If the NW is only due to teething than I'm ok with that bc I'm already medicating so not much else I can do. But I'm wondering if it's a routine thing too.
I do appreciate it! I am working with the Naps board to help with the 2-1 transition. This forum has been so incredibly helpful to us, thank you!
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Hi Jenn,
I read through your posts and a few things stand out to me:)
I think these NW are because of teething and a little OT, but I think it will pass after developmental leap is over and you adjust a routine. I know laura suggested set naps and you tried that in the past.
If you don't feel like it's the right thing for you, you might wanna try something else.
You asked how people get their good routines... LO grow up fast and it's a skill to keep up with the changes:) Just to comfort you, my textbook DS is on 1 nap since he was 10,5 months and we're on the same routine for 3 months! I find that luxurious;)
I am not sure if I can help you set that first nap to be shorter than the second, because biologically seems like he preferred the first one (on the days he had a good long nap it was morning one). But we can try:)
For his morning solids, what do you serve? You BF to top up? I wonder if he was hungry and took a short break to eat. Fruit can give you that effect sometimes.
Teething can mess up a lot, but it's better to try to ignore it. Go back... Ignore the pain in terms of putting him down, but don't ignore sleepiness. Well, I never did and I found it better for DS. Teething is a resoucefull task, so a body needs rest:)
I think if you want to keep the first nap shorter, the A time should be shorter. You can try it, but this might bring EW back, so might not be doable:/ Sorry to disappoint you in that matter:/
The other thing is, even if the second nap is later in the day I was still offering BT at a reasonable hour. When I look at your day, if it's not teething or developmental leap it most likely that causing NWs.
You will probably start with 8am WU:
8 WU
8:10 BF
9:30 solids
10:30 nap 1 will be shorter ideally
11:30 BF
12:30 dinner
2:30 something between snack and light lunch, soup maybe?
3:... About 20 min after he is dome with eating till 5:30
7 start BTroutine. Bath, BF and zzzzzzzz:)
What do you think?
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Hi Bella!
Thank you for responding!
Ok so first off wow to your LO having the same routine for 3 months! I hope I can get to that point!
In terms of solids; I do a mix of puree and finger foods so it depends on the day. I try to do either a mix of fruit and veggies sometimes with a type of grains and/ or protein. It could be hunger that wakes him up. Yesterday he seemed to have a semi normal day where he took pretty good naps (an hour or so each) and a much better night. Maybe it was a growth spurt? Do you suggest giving him a top up BM feed right after solids to make sure he's full?
I would like to try the first am nap shorter only bc he has struggled with EW for the last couple of weeks. If it doesn't work out I can go for a long am/short pm. I definitely agree that the later bedtime was a contributor to the OT wakings as he had that issue a couple of months ago.
Teething really wreaks havoc on a schedule but you are right in terms of trying to keep things consistent. I try to follow cues and sometimes it worked where he would fall asleep with a shorter Than usual A, sometimes his A time was longer (or so I think) despite showing sleepy signs earlier ??? Confusing...I know!
So I'm wondering if pulling back the first A to say 3 hours may give me a short UT nap? When I go too early he won't sleep so I'm nervous to do a 2.5 first A. If he's not tired enough, he will just play and look around etc then cry because he wants out of the crib or gets OT as a result. I'm also cautious about being too short where EMW happen again. I could do a slightly longer A for the pm nap so maybe something like:
WU/BF 7:30
A
E 8:30 (solids)
A
Nap 10:30-11:30 am
E 11:30
A
E 12:30 (lunch and maybe BM top up?)
A
Nap 2:45-4:45 (ideally; he has yet done a 2 hour nap)
E 4:45 pm
A
E 5:45 pm (solids)
A
BF/BT 8 pm
Does that sound ok? Do you think it's still too much A time given the info about my DS?
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So I'm wondering if pulling back the first A to say 3 hours may give me a short UT nap? When I go too early he won't sleep so I'm nervous to do a 2.5 first A. If he's not tired enough, he will just play and look around etc then cry because he wants out of the crib or gets OT as a result. I'm also cautious about being too short where EMW happen again. I could do a slightly longer A for the pm nap so maybe something like:
I think this is very important information and a key to everything. First A time in a day that's the longest is perfect! This is how everyone wants it, because a) it stops EW b)it helps when you transition to 1 nap later on (around 1yo). That's why I would not go back. I thought you preferred short morning nap because of family errands, but if not - your son seems like mine - loved morning nap :)
Your meals look good. If you add grains to fruit he won't be hungry. I found pureed apple and banana causing waking up out of hunger, so whenever I gave DS only fruit I tried to BF 1h after solids/at least 30 min before sleep. Also, if he can do almost 4 hours A time in the morning, I would serve solids 1.5h after BF because 1)DS will eat more and without an issue 2) it's less likely to cause hunger wakings.
Just to give you a perspective, at 13 mo DS eats like this:
7 solids with cow's milk in a cup
9:30 light snack - fruit, yougurt
12 lunch rather light
3:30 supper
6:00 dinner
7:00 cup of cow's milk - I decided to keep that one separate as he likes it
This shows that LO can take longer breaks between feeds, so you can start stretching a little - but that's if you want to keep BF as a separate meal.
WU/BF 7:30
A
E 8:30 (solids)
A
Nap 10:30-11:30 am
E 11:30
A
E 12:30 (lunch and maybe BM top up?)
A
Nap 2:45-4:45 (ideally; he has yet done a 2 hour nap)
E 4:45 pm
A
E 5:45 pm (solids)
A
BF/BT 8 pm
I think this looks good, but if he wakes closer to 7, I would start routine closer to 7pm rather than 8. He will have shorter day, so it will help with OT for a while.
You seem to know your son really well:) Congrats on that! I don't think I had an idea about my DS's routine like you do ;]
When you think about it, you know exactly how it should look like. It's just getting there, isn't it !
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Hey there!!
What are you doing during NWs? Are you leaving him to resettle? I know ages ago we talked about prop issues and I am still wondering if it is an issue. I noticed in your first post you fed him in the middle of his nap? And the next one you walked him until drowsy?
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Average A times for 9 month olds are 3.5-4 hours. So I'd be wary of shortening his First A time too much. To me those NWs could well be UT. Neither of mine would have coped with the routine you posted as an example. There is no way they would have been ready for a nap after 3 hours A time. And no way I'd have gotten them to bed with 3hr 15 A time after a 2 hour nap. Even after a 1.5 nap. They either have resisted bedtime or woke shortly after as they'd have thought they were having a CN.
Just another perspective. I've followed your other thread and just wonder are you pitching the A times too short.
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ha! It's the story of my life Bella! I have an idea what DS likes but I'm not quite there in getting a solid routine. It's either too much A or not enough A ::)
I agree in terms of making sure he's well fed before the nap. Thankfully after those two days, he hasn't woken up to eat so maybe it was a growth spurt or who knows. I generally feed 1-1.5 hr after a BF. My goal is to wean around a year so I'm going to start taking steps towards that as well.
I do prefer the short nap in the am and longer in the pm due to errands and classes. It's just easier for our family. But of course if DS prefers the other way I may have to tweak it.
Today he is playing catch up as yesterday was a crazy day with family and he had a horrible night as a result of horrible naps. Looks like DS is sensitive to OT UT and all haha!
Hi Shiv!!!! Nice to hear from you again ;D
Funny I always though even a couple of months ago that my DS was similar to your LOs.
I do know DS doesn't do well with such a long A unless he has a monster nap. Unfortunately I have yet to see a 2 hour nap. The most he's ever done is 1.75 on rare occasions. I agree with you that I don't want EMW!! We struggled with that for awhile, pulled out of it, and looks like NW are back sprinkled with early wakings that I just end up nursing for. Some are playful, some he fusses. I let him sort it out and most of the time he will just go back to sleep. Other times if it's been awhile I'll feed.
Lately he's been teething so his wake times seem shorter than they were before BUT I'm getting NW and EMW which I feel like it's bc of short wake times.
This is what is going on so far today: (he's probably tired as he had 3 long NW last night and this morning and had crappy naps yesterday)
WU 9 am (this will be moved up again to 7:30)
NAP 1 11:32-12:56 pm (A 2:31; this one is weird bc he usually doesn't sleep at this time but he kept trying to put himself to sleep in the living room and was acting very tired; hoping this won't come back to haunt me tonight)
Nap 2 4:05- (woke up at 28 minutes?! Resettled and still sleeping)
Before all this mess we were doing:
WU 7
A 3.5
Nap 1 10:30-11:30/noon (usually an hour and 15)
A 3.5
Nap 2 3/3:30-4:30/5 (again usually about 1:10 or 1:15)
A 3.15
BT 7:45-8:15 pm (depending on last nap)
I'm all around confused to be honest. He always was longer on the A times since I started an EASY with him at around 3.5 months but in the week and a half he's cut down his A times. Not sure if it's because the teething, NW making him more tired, or he tires out faster bc he is much more mobile.
Shiv- what would you suggest since you mentioned NW being UT rather than OT? Maybe I'm in a vicious UT/OT loop in this transition?
Thank you ladies. I honestly am so thankful for all the insight. It definitely helps to have other perspectives!
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So I do think it's a case of UT. Yesterday he did shorter A times with 1-1.5 hour naps:
WU 9 (working on getting it earlier due to daylight savings time)
Nap 11:30-1 pm (A 2.5; surprised he even was tired here)
Nap 4:10-5:45 pm (A 3:10)
BT 9:10 pm (~3.5)
NW 1am, 5-5:40 (wide awake after feed), 7:15-7:45 (playful again but eventually drifted; not sure bc I fell asleep right away after nursing him)
These long playful wake ups are throwing us off. I woke him up at 8:45 since I overslept myself.
So now I'm wondering where to even begin ???
So I go back to what I was doing beforehand? 3.5 A times with a 3-3.25 A to bed?
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Jenn you got this! I feel like you know what you're doing because you know him so well.
When you think about it, his day was really good one. Good naps and everything.
So I go back to what I was doing beforehand? 3.5 A times with a 3-3.25 A to bed?
In my opinion it's not how long it is since his nap (if it's at least 1.5h) but what time it is. You don't want to put him down too late, because he will have a looong day :)
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Thanks Bella!!
Very encouraging words. I just feel like DS has been so confusing lately that it's making me doubt what I am doing Yk? True...good naps which is great but then long NW in the early morning hours :o Is it too much to ask for good naps and good solid nights? Lol
Today I did a 3.5 A before the am nap and got a 31 minute nap ::) which I'm pretty sure indicates OT. Is it because he has been doing shorter A times and is no longer used to this one? I used to get hour naps on that A ???
For the pm I shot for around 3:15ish since I helped resettle the am and he slept for another 45 minutes or so. Maybe I should have just gotten him up since I'm ultimately aiming for a short am nap?
Aarrrrrrrtgh teething!!!!!!
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It changes quickly with LOs, but I think the key is to stick to 1 routine for a few days and see what results it gives. Only then it gives you solid results.
Keep me posted!
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Hi Bella!
Ok so thankfully the long EMW seem to have gotten better with stretching the first A out again and him not taking monster naps all day long. He's still teething which is progressively getting worse. Last night he woke up a couple of times (twice crying hard). Top teeth seem to be doing a number on him.
This is the routine I started doing yesterday and it seems to be doing ok. I'll be sticking to it for another two days. Still some tweaking and experimenting going on over here. I'm stil getting 3 consistent NW where he wants to nurse but the breastfeeding board assured me that teething could very well be the culprit and that I should wean after they come. So that's the plan.
WU 8:15 (it will be earlier to ideally 7-7:30 like before)
A 3.25
S 11:30-12:15 pm
A 3.25
S 3:30-5 pm (hopefully 2 hours at some point)
A 3.25-3.5
BT 8:15-8:30 pm
Yesterday the first nap was about 40 minutes and the second he woke up at 1 hr then slept for another 15 minutes. If he doesn't lengthen the pm nap should I try for a 3.5 A after tha am nap or shorten the am nap to 30 minutes?
Thank you!
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If he has short morning nap, I wonder if it would help to actually shorten the second A time to 3.10 min? Is he tired earlier than 3.25?
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Ok...so do you think the pm nap was OT?
It's honestly hard to tell if he's tired beforehand but I would say that it does. I could try to aim for 3:10 rather than 3.25 to see if he gets a full pm nap after a 30-45 minute am nap. I guess I'm cautious since I don't want another UT nap...
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I think you're on a good track. Now it's all about being consistent for a while. Changes every day never give a long term result:/
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I agree; I'm sticking to it for a few days and see if I need tweaking. Teething is definitely wreaking havoc. Today he woke up at 12 minutes during his am nap but then the Tylenol kicked in and he slept for 1.5 hours. So I'm also bearing in mind that teething will make it hard to decifer what A times are really appropriate.
I'll keep you posted
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Hello!
I am wondering could a NW 1.5 hr after BT be UT related if DS refuses to go back to sleep for another hour?
Also how do I get out of a UT/OT loop? I have been at family's for last two days and his sleep went haywire!
Saturday we had a late bday and I went against my instincts and let him be up for a little after he slept for 45 minutes in the car. I should have put him back down immediately but family was excited to see him understandably. Anyways, he had two long wakings and other NW plus a EW only sleeping 8 hours- very OT yesterday as a result. Anyways yesterday, I shortened A times plus he napped in the car on the way to a shower. So his A times ran from 2.5-3.5. He again had a horrible night with a EMW that lasted an hour. His wake up time is late now and I want to get back on track but don't know how. ???
I didn't document an EASY bc I knew things would be off. I just didn't think they would be THIS off. We were finally getting back on track haha I'm exhausted!
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I think it would be good to pick a wake up and average A times and bedtime and just go for it for 4-5 days. Very hard to know for sure what will work without a good run of consistency. He seems to be using the later wake ups to make up for the NWs but that is counter productive.
Honestly I'd just pick a wake up time and that's the time you get up regardless of the night.
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Thanks Shiv!
Things hit the fan last night when he was waking every hour :o
I know it's a mix of OT and teething. His top teeth are right there ready to break so his gums are very swollen and he's in notable pain. My DH wanted to get a night without Motrin which was a mistake bc by 1:30 am he was waking every 45 minutes crying! So we gave him a dose and he slept better. Tonight I hope goes better and yes I will be back to waking him up tomorrow. I'll keep you both posted within a couple of days.
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I just want to ask if DS ends up going to bed at 10 (I know super late); is him waking up for the day at 7 am a result of that?
This is the least amount of sleep he has had ever and now he has a cold so I'm concerned. My husband did let him sleep too long for one of his naps which is why BT was pushed back tremendously. However, he only had 11.5 overall sleep hours which is very low so I'm thinking OT.
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It's hard to know really. I think I'd pick a day that you know you have nothing coming up for the next 4/5 days and agree a routine with your DH. Wake up,naps, nap length and bedtime and stick to it without fail. I'd say after that we'll have a better idea of what is OT/UT and good A time.
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Yes! I figured it could be either or something else.
After we go home today from our family visit, our plan is to get DS back to his regular 7:30 wake ups because he does horribly with late bedtimes etc.
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Hey there, just checking in and wondering how things are going? :-*
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HI Timbler! ;D
Thanks checking in! We are doing ok. His A times have been consistent for a couple of days but Are getting long early wakings again as well as OT wakings at night...again smh.
Now he is recovering from a cold. Nothing serious just some sniffles and he's still teething the top two.
Not sure what to do at this point. I haven't changed A times for about a month now but have decreased slightly due to teething and illness earlier in the month but now I'm trying out his old A times since I'm getting EMW. Still not helping though so not sure if it's teething or routine related.
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Do you want to post your day?
If A times have been consistent with wake up too then it should be easier to see what's going on the naps and nights xx
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Hi Shiv!
Well we are coming back on our previous consistent routine. He still had a 8;30 wake up which I plan to move to 8 tomorrow and stay there for a few days. I know his bedtime is still too late. Here is the day. We have been getting broken naps 32-36 minutes. I did the long am/short pm bc he would wake up in the am after 30ish minutes and figured it might be OT let me resettle. Perhaps it's causing EMW?
Not sure. Regardless I'm getting broken naps and NW like below.
NW 12:07, 1:35, 4:15, briefly around 5, 7-7:45
Total 10 hrs
WU 8:30
E 9 am
A
E 10:30 (solids and BF)
A
S 11:58- 1:21 pm (A 3:28; hand on back; woke up at 32)
E 1:25
A
E 2:30 (solids)
A
S 4:40-5:27 pm (A 3:19)
E 5:35
A
E 7 pm (solids)
A
BF/BT 8:20 pm (2:53A)
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Just an update:
Last night/morning same thing with NW and EMW. Today so far is:
WU 8 am
Nap 1: 11:30-12:30 pm (A 3:30; he woke himself)
Nap 2: 4- 5:15 pm(woke up 32 minutes into sleep; I resettled him)
BT 8:20 pm (A 3.25)
NW 1:46, 4:35 am (fed at both times despite holding off at the 4:30 waking)
Not sure if this sheds any light at all just thought I would give more info. Last night the NW were much better. However, He keeps waking up wide awake.
Today (Sunday) he woke up at 7 and didn't go back to sleep. I'm just afraid he's going to wake up earlier and earlier. Is this UT maybe? I doubt it's OT bc of the night he had. He did do an almost 11 hour night with around 10 hours of sleep but my day doesn't equal to 13 hours due to the naps.
Thanks!
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Hi there, I'm sorry, I know you've had a few other threads going on at various times and I've just tried to look back at some of them to try and get an idea of the bigger picture. One thing I'd find really interesting would be how he seems during his A times? I mean, does he seem generally bright and happy, or are there times when he's really struggling to hold it together, or alternatively does he ever seem kind of crazy hyper/delirious? Not always easy to tell, I appreciate, but both of mine have certainly been capable of going completely crazy in an often hilarious way, but obviously caused by OT. Or on the other hand have more tantrums etc than usual, or just want to lie down, etc. I can generally be confident that mine are getting enough sleep overall if they're on an even keel, so to speak - yes, DS really needs to have lots of physical exercise or else he's bouncing off the walls (as a baby, I found he needed to get outside regularly, even before he could walk around himself) - but on days when I know they've each had what they generally need, and are well etc, I can often put 'crazy' behaviour down to OT and then I know I need to try and get a little more sleep into them. Sorry I'm rambling, but my point is that you know your DS best, and so I feel I need to know how you feel about whether he's getting enough sleep overall - I could guess that he's OT (as my LOs probably would have been with those sorts of naps) but if he's really doing fine during the day and on an 'even keel' then there's probably little point in trying to get more sleep into him and we'll need to aim for something with a little less daytime sleep, perhaps, or just longer A times. Does that make sense at all? So, how do you feel he's really doing? :-*
Btw I noticed you've kept switching between wanting to do long am, short pm naps, and vice versa. So just letting you know we did short am, long pm with both of ours - for DS it was clearly his natural rhythm; with DD I think she'd have got on better with the other way around but we kind of had to force her into the same thing in order to fit around DS, and it did kind of work out OK in the end ;) We found a really consistent routine before the am nap and a consistent beginning and end time really helped with this. But anyway, more on that if you decide that's the way you want to go - I'll hang back for others to advise if you want to keep with the long am nap ;)
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Hi Timbler!
Thank you so much for replying...
In regards to knowing DS mood, he's generally a happy and very active baby. When he gets tired he gets whiny and when OT he gets hyper (when really OT that's when meltdowns occur). However, he rarely has OT related meltdowns. Usually it's when we have been at events where we missed bedtime coupled with bad naps all day. I think that is what is so confusing lately because mood wise he is generally happy. He does get fussy at the end of A times. However, he is teething and recovering from a cold so that doesn't help in gaging whether he really is ready for a nap or not ::)
I guess what I am trying to say is that he is generally happy throughout his A times but naps are still broken. When he wakes up he fusses a bit but then is completely fine. I wouldn't mind the napping situation if he didn't wake up so much throughout the night and have long EMW. He's perky in the morning too lol
I have gone back and forth between 3.25-3.5 A times for around a month or more due to illness and teething. However, I'm wondering if I need a routine change since it seems he is getting up earlier and earlier which I wanted it at 7:30 but at this rate I'm afraid that he will be waking up at 6 then 5 throughout this week! ???
In regards to longer am/shorter pm versus shorter am/longer pm, it seems that I would prefer longer pm with a shorter am but naturally he seems to lean the other way. However, I think it may cause EMW? I don't know actually lol
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I think I'd make a routine best on your best guess at this point and stick to it for a full week. So same wake up naps and bedtime. We did long am, short PM as mine slept better at night that way. But some LOs don't cope well with that as they need too long an A time after a longer nap and the day gets long.
How long is your short nap meant to be?
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I have been trying to be consistent with nap times and bedtime but it's difficult because he keeps waking up earlier and earlier then sometimes snoozing then sometimes not. Today it was 6:30 am wide awake attempting to play after only a 10 hour night. He did have a disaster day of naps that started with a UT nap in the car. Today I don't know what time he officially woke up bc after I fed him at 6:30 (hoping he would sleep for another hour) I went back to sleep. He woke me up at like 7:45ish so I'm assuming he went back to sleep for an hour but that's just a guess smh I'm exhausted from last night so I didn't monitor as well his morning snoozing. Basically today I'm shooting in the dark with regards to nap times since his cues are not always reliable. At the very least, I hope he catches up on sleep today to start fresh tomorrow :-\
I'm hoping for a suggestion on where to even begin to carve out a routine. He can do 12 hour nights but in the last week or so it's been dwindling to now 10-10.5 hour nights including NW ugh. Not sure where to start with the tweaking; I kinda feel stuck. I know this is part of the beginnings of the 2-1 transition but wow this is tricky.
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Sorry Hun. What I meant was pick a start to the day like 8am. And do 3.5 a time. So nap is at 11.30. And so on. And if he's up at 7am then you resettle until 8 and then start the day so nap will be at 11.30 even if he's been awake since 7.40 or whatever. so I guess I'm suggesting a week of set wakes up naps and bedtimes to get him back on track. If you're too accommodating.
Also in the 2-1 a 12 hour night may be unrealistic with needing to fit everything in.
How's he going with the self settling?
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Ok I can try that for a week. Will the set naps cause OT wakings. Set naps help with EMW? Interesting and worth a try. so sticking with the same A times of 3.5?
Could this be ok?:
WU 7:30 am
Nap 1 11-12 pm (A 3.5)
Nap 2 3:45-5:15 (A 3.75)- I have noticed at 3.5, he naps for 1.25 hrs. Maybe that's the best I'll get with him?
BT 8:30-8:45 pm
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if 3.5 is not giving decent naps it may well just not be enough A time. So which nap is the short nap? You're aiming for an hour in the morning and what is your plan for the second?
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Yea that's what I'm starting to think since he's been on this A time for quite awhile.
The short nap is supposed to be the am nap since he struggles with EMW a lot then long in the pm. I realized he is good with about 2.5 hours in day sleep; 3 hrs at most. So ideally if am is an hour then pm 1.5? Or maybe am 30 minutes pm 2 hrs. That should be enough right?
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Ok forgive me for being slow! Pregnancy brain is totally affecting me this weather!!
If he has such an unsettled night what is the reason for doing a short AM nap? Is it just to ensure he is tired enough for the PM nap or is the thought that it may be encouraging the EMW? So long as the nap isn't within 1.5/2 hours of him getting up for the day I shouldn't think that would be a factor? I guess I'm just wondering if you can manage to get him a decent A time would it be better to let him have him long nap in the morning so he's lovely and refreshed...presuming he will take it and either sleep longer or be resettled?..so he'll manage another decent A time to next nap which can be shorter, even an hour, and then a good A time to bed so he'll be good and tired for bed and hopefully tired enough to sleep better at night?
I'm just thinking he's maybe OT with the broken night and then the short nap and then the longer PM nap is allowing him to get caught up so he's UT for bed and so on.
I honestly don't know though. And I apologise as I'm probably confusing you. The other thing that I keep coming back to is maybe he just needs more A time as that can cause NWs too.
This is so why I made the switch to one nap at 12 months :) :) :)
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CONGRATULATIONS on the upcoming arrival Shiv! Pregnancy brain lol I remember those days when I could barely remember my own name ;)
The reason for the short am nap is because I thought maybe that is what is causing the EMW. Perhaps you make a good point that perhaps he is UT going to bed. For awhile I was getting OT wakings but it was because I wasn't calculating the A after the pm nap. Now that I know what he can handle I don't have it as much unless I miss the mark. He is sensitive to timing, one minute off and its game over lol
So for a full 1.5 pm nap, he can handle almost a 3.5 A to bed, 1hr-1.25 about a 3.25A to bed, less than an hour its almost a 3hrA to bed. Last night was better but he was tossing and turning all night but resettling himself with 3 NW and no long ones. Yesterday he had two short naps (1 1hr nap and the other about 35 minutes) because we were out all day, but he actually had a better night which is why I am wondering if he is not getting enough A in the day which leads to OT. I don't know I'm just throwing theories out there lol
So since he's been doing a 3.5 first A, about 3.25-3.5 second A (depending on length of am nap) for about a month or more, what would be a good jump in A?
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I wanted to give a quick update of last night/this morning. I extended the first A to 3.75 and got a 1.5 nap (with a quick resettle at 33 minutes). However I got two longer NW including an EMW that was only settled with finally feeding then he settled quickly. ???
He is teething his top two teeth which the gums are so transparent but no cutting yet. Meds and no meds don't seem to make a difference :-\
Yesterday went like this:
WU 8 am
Nap1 11:45-1:15 pm (A 3.75;woke up at 33)
Nap 2 4:45-5:30 pm (A 3.5)
BT 8:45 pm (A 3.25)
He briefly woke up after about 35 minutes, then had NW at 12:15-12:45, 3:45, 6-6:45 am. Both longer wakings he was wide awake; would fuss a little (mostly when I tried to resettle) but no crying.
Not enough A time somewhere in the routine? Maybe it takes a few days to adjust? Maybe the am nap is interfering and should be short? Ugh who knows.
Any insight would be welcome with open arms! DS is a tough nut to crack.
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Hi there,
we had short naps for a while too and I jumped to long A times, more what would be average for age and it worked straight away, long naps I mean. but my baby is LSN and we decided at 10months to go cold turkey to one nap as it wasn't possible to fit 2 in anymore. she took the change really well, A time now 5 hrs and naps for 2.5 hrs. HOWEVER our chatty long NW still hasn't resolved. its usually around the same time, 3/4 am, so I wonder if its something else, prop related or developmental. who knows. will work on the probs now... so maybe go for a brave jump in A time and see how it goes? give it a few days too to see if this makes a difference... ?
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Hi Franzika!
I'm sorry to hear you are still struggling with long NW...we are in this together I guess haha
Mine has them at different times but usually its after 5:30 am so by that time he has had about 9 hours of sleep and he thinks thats enough lol I nurse him since its close to wake up. Last night I withheld (as I have done before) and he would NOT go down until I nursed then he took a full feed and peacefully rolled over and went to sleep.
He did start cutting his top left tooth which I know can cause longer EMW but this has happened before so I think its routine related.
Interesting thought on making a huge leap in A. How did your LO handle it? What were his broken naps like? Mine is the ambiguous 33-37 minutes ??? ??? ??? He can deal with moderate pushes but needs time to adjust for naps to lengthen. I never tried huge leaps and I wouldn't even know how huge to go. He is I would say LSN-average. For him to be well rested, he needs around 13 hours total sleep. Is that considered LSN?
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I'd say what you're aiming with that looks good especially with getting the longer nap. And I'd say yeah you'd need to give it a few days to see how it goes.
My DD3 arrived in the middle of last night 12 days early so I might be slow to check in tomorrow xx.
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AWWWW congrats!!! No worries on the slower response time. I'll be trying out the push in A for a few days and report back. He's finally cutting his left tooth so I know its going to be a little crazier before it gets better.
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hi jenn,
we had usually one good nap and the second one short, also between 33 and 40 mins. when I finally increased the A time quite a bit (much more than what is considered average for this age) I got finally longer naps. so then we had nap refusal for the second and I decided to go straight to one nap. so today I cut her nap short to 1hr 40 mins and see if that will resolve our NW's. in our case too it seems like that she thinks after 8/9 hrs of night sleep that the is enough and just can't fall asleep. I remember from before that with little daytime sleep she didn't have NW's. so Im trying this now and hope for the best!!!oh and my baby is LSN too, needs 12 hrs on average and is always happy.
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Wow Franziska! That's sounds great and very brave to o to one nap at 10 months!
Yea for us it's hard to distinguish the nap lengths of they are OT UT or just teething pain. Today he did a 3:40 first A and slept for almost 2 hours after resettling at 42 minutes. I thought 42 minutes is UT but he fell back asleep so fast that I think it was the teething that woke him up. Now he's asleep for a nap nap 4 hours after that nap!! So we are doing this so far today
WU 8 am
Nap 1 11:40-1:40 pm (A 3:40)
Nap 2 5:35- (still sleeping) (A ~4 hrs)
BT 9 pm hopefully
Now the day is getting long so I'm thinking of shifting everything up to a 7:30 Wu since I don't want. 9 pm bedtime.
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Update: last night was better but still got s long NW from 4:30-5:15 where he was chatty and all over the place lol even nursing did not do anything. Eventually he put himself back to sleep.
Yesterday's routine went like this:
WU 8 am
S 11:40-1:40 pm (A 3:40)
S 5:35-6:18 pm (A ~4hrs)
BT 9:27 pm (A 3:09)
BT was late! He stirred at 1.5 hours after BT then woke up 2:12 then 4:35-5:15 ::)
Thoughts? Is it teething or do I still need a bit of tweaking?
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You seem to be headed in the right direction. Stick to it for a few days.
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Thanks Shiv!
I will try it out for a few more days since yesterday we were traveling around so EaSY was a bit off.
Congrats again!
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Hi!
I'm realizing he needs a tad more A in the day (since he actually got more of it two days this week and it resulted in better night sleep) meaning no long NW or EMW. I'm wondering which EASY I should aim for:
WU 7:30
Nap 11:30-1:15/1:30 pm (4 hours)
Nap 4:45/5-5:30/5:45 pm (3.5)
BT 8:30/8:45 pm (3 hrs)
Or
WU 7:30 am
Nap 11:15-12:45 pm (3.75)
Nap 4:45-5:30 pm (4 hours)
BT 8:30 pm (3 hours)
The morning nap is much better at being longer than the pm nap but it's still broken from 33-42 minutes. I can try to stick with it for another day or so. Or should i explore the option of short am/long pm again?
WU 8
Nap 11:45-1:15 pm (3.75)
Nap 5-5:45 pm (3.75)
BT 8:45-9 pm (3-3.25)
Thank you!
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Update (sorry!): I tried around a 4 hr A in the am and DS woke up at 33 and 45 wired and fussy. I did manage to resettle. He did have a bad night with two long NW including a long EMW which is what led me to think more A time is needed or try the shorter am/ long pm route. I do know that him cutting teeth is plaguing sleep as well but I am medicating and my gut tells me routine is the main culprit for the NW and EMW.
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I think what you're doing looks great. I'd personally stick at it and I think as he settles into it he'll nap better. The resettling at naps isn't a new thing over all? You had been doing that anyways ?
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Yes when they are broken, if I can resettle I would. I was getting pretty good naps at 3.75 but then I was getting broken ones between 33-42 minutes. Tonight is already better with no OT wakings: he did the following:
WU ~ 8:20 am
S 12:20-1:43 pm (A ~ 4 hrs; not sure of wake up; woke up at 33 and 45)
S 5:23-6:19 pm (A 3:40; resisting nap)
BT 9:34 pm(A 3:15)
So I should stick with this correct?
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I would. I would watch that wake up doesn't slip too much. I think with establishing this I'd keep wake up pretty much the same with maybe 10 mins either way.
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Ok makes sense I will be more strict on wake up. The long am nap should be ok and not encourage EMW correct?
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No as far as I'm aware a nap encourages EMW if it is too soon as babies think it's part of their night sleep. If he's up for over 3.5 hours plus there is a huge separation from morning to nap time especially if you make sure to be on top of wake up. Otherwise all he's doing is compensating for night sleep by sleeping on and the vicious cycle will continue.
Hugs. You'll get there x
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Thanks for the encouragement!! Much appreciated. I'll keep at it for a few days and hopefully it will improve especially since he's cutting teeth ::)
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I'm having a hard time with this... For the last couple of days with the longer am nap ( which is still broken around 35 minutes) on a 4 hr A, he's resisting his pm nap even on a 4 hr A. I put him down and he plays and plays then cries when I try to lull him to sleep ??? Then he does fall asleep it ends up as what seems to be a UT nap (37-42 min) then he stays up later bc he's not tired enough or he's OT. My day will be too long with more than a 4 hour A with two naps right? NW haven't changed and he continues to wake up after 9 hours of sleep then dozes for another half to an hour. if I get him down agin. Last night he had one that lasted an hour around 3am :o
Not sure what to do. He's doing a 1:15-1:30 am nap then the pm is about 40 minutes. Should I plow on or is it clear that he's UT throughout the day then OT? Or just UT?
I feel a little lost with this transition :-\
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Today he did not go back to sleep after only sleeping 9 hours! He didn't have long wakings though. I did the same routine yesterday:
WU 8
S 12-130 (A 4 hrs)
S 5:30-6:10 (A 4; resisted nap again)
BT 9:25 (A 3.25)
NW 1 am, around 4 am; up at 7 am ???
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hi jenn, sorry to hear you are still struggling. how old is he again? the length of his morning nap indicates to me UT, so I would do a brave jump to 4.5 hrs for a few days and see how it goes. he may wake up OT the first few days but hopefully you are able to resettle the nap. if you can, do then a 20 mins CN to theism over to BT or otherwise early BT. as you know we struggled with those horrible NW's for a long time and for the last few days they haven't happened. we moved to 1 nap at 10 months, she has now an A time of 5.5hrs in the morning and the second just under 5hrs. seems to work. mind you I still have to cap that nap. she would nap for 2.5 hrs but I cap at 1.45hr and with that routine the NW's have disappeared. you may have a LSN baby too. who knows. I think at this stage its worse a try, what do you think?
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Hi Zissi!!
I am so happy to hear that you haven't had NW!! That gives me hope since its been MONTHS since DS has not had one NW; we averaging 3 every 3 hours or so smh. My only concern is him getting so OT especially since he didn't get great sleep last night. He popped up this morning like a spring chicken lol I'm tired!
I Tried a 4.25 A to see if I would get a better nap. He was either OT or UT bc he was just hyper and not settling. Then I lulled him to sleep at almost 4.5 A. He woke up at 30 minutes and I resettled but he was fighting it and is sleeping but very fidgety. Maybe it's too much A?
I'm wondering if he has chronic OT from the NW plus the teething. He is a tricky one! UT and OT seem to affect him easily so striking the perfect balance has been challenging!
Then I'm wondering would capping the first nap help with pm nap resistance. So maybe 35-40 min am nap and then a long pm nap. Only thing is figuring out all new A times to make that happen sigh.
I may just start all over with a different approach since things seem to be getting messier. So maybe something like this:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45 am (3.5) or cut it shorter to 30 min
S 3:30- 5 pm (3.75)? Or maybe push to 4 hrs?
BT 8:30 pm (3.5A)
He is average to low sleep needs. For a good rest he gets 13hrs in a 24 hr period with an 11hr night.
Please tell me if I'm just expecting too much too soon! He's cutting teeth and going through developmental stuff so I know it affects sleep too.
I appreciate everything ladies!
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(((Hugs))) the 2-1 is a tricky one, certainly! Especially with all that teething and development going on too. You could certainly try a routine with a short am nap and long pm, that worked well for us, but ours transitioned much later. The other thing you could do would be to cap that second nap more. As zissi says, you could just do a big push in that first A, but I'm inclined to agree with you that there's probably some OT going on there, especially with the short nights. A short morning nap can help with short nights, in that they can potentially get to their afternoon nap having caught up with enough of the OT not to be crazy, but still tired enough to take a nice long nap, which could leave them refreshed enough to have a long A to BT and then a nice night. That's the ideal - but as you say, it can take a while to work out appropriate A times... We can put our heads together on that of course, if you want to try it, really up to you though to decide which way seems best to you :-*
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Thank you Timbler!
Yes I would like to try the short am/long pm route. I think with everything going on with the short nights and the UT/OT loop and the pm nap resistance it seems best.
I would love some help on how to go about it with the hopes of making things better :D
I would love to jump in tomorrow.
Thank you!
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Hi so quick update in real time:
Wu 7:27
Nap 1 11:04-12:27 pm (A3:37; woke up at 35 crying hard and when I went to pick him up he fell asleep immediately!)
He had wakings every 3 hours last night but no extended wakings. Maybe I should shorten first A tomorrow to 3.25 to get a shorter nap? Maybe he is OT from the drastic A time increases?
I also don't know how to proceed with the day since I expected a short UT am nap; instead I got this ???
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Ok so you can cap the morning nap, you don't have to wait to see whether it will naturally be shorter. I used an A of 3h before the first nap, but others have done 3.5h - depends on when you think he'll be able to get down for it consistently? Perhaps something like this:
WU 7:30
Nap 10:30-11 (wake him)
Nap 2-3:30/4
BT 8:30
But I'm sorry I probably haven't quite followed through all your posts thoroughly enough, he may prefer his longest A before the second nap, for example, but you'll have a much better feel for that than I do right now :) I just gave roughly what my DS used to do, as an example.
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HI Timbler!
I'm not sure if he does well on long A times before bed. I know that when he does a 1.5 pm nap he can do a 3.5 A. He's never done a two hour nap so not sure but I am sure he may be able to do a 4 hour A after a monster nap.
I think I can try a first A of 3:15 and cap it but not sure after that. I never did such a short am nap intentionally and never got the second A right after an unintentional short A nap. I could keep it at 3.5 A then do an A of 3 hours since I know he will be tired from waking him.
Something like:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:30 (3.5)
S 2:30-4/4:30 (3 hrs)
BT 8:30 pm (4 hrs)
Or
WU 7:30 am
S 11-11:30 am (3.5)
S 2:45-4:15/4:45 pm (3.25)
BT 8-8:30 (3.75)
Is that enough A for DS? I clearly am not an expert at this present moment since there are so many factors with his sleep and I seem to not be hitting the right balance. It's either he's UT or OT so I may not really understand DS in the sleep department lol My fear is the last A being so long since In the past when I tried set naps with the longest A before bed I had OT wakings.
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I wanted to give an update on yesterday to hopefully shed more light on A times for DS:
WU 7:27 Am
S 11:04- 12:27 pm (A 3:37; drowsy in my arms then put down; woke up at 35 crying fell asleep in my arms)
S 4:07-5:12 pm (A 3:40; in my arms then put down)
BT 8:54 pm (A 3:44; bday celebration ran later)
NW 12:48 am crying hard but resettled quickly without feed), 5 am (fed)
Woke up after only a 10 hour night at 7 am :-\
We were out this morning and I figured ok he can take his short nap in the stroller but he was WIDE awake but not wired, and finally fell asleep at 4 hrs A. Not sure if it's bc he had a better night or maybe he was already OT ???
I didn't cap naps yesterday which maybe I should have. But I feel as though this may help construct a new EASY with short am/ long pm naps.
Thank you again!!
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Mine never slept out, except when tiny in the sling with all visual stimulation blocked out ::) Do you think a UT morning nap would work better at home?
Sorry, I'd forgotten how old your LO was, just checked and thinking I probably wouldn't cap so much just yet. Kind of trying to pluck something out of the dark but maybe someone else will chime in with a better suggestion or you'll try something else that will work better. But you need somewhere to start from, so...
7:30 up
11-12 nap 1
3:30-5 nap 2
8:30 BT
That might be a bit more sleep than he needs, from what you've said previously? I think that yesterday sounded a bit OT perhaps, with that easily settled crying NW and short night - you said BT was a bit later than usual? With DS, during the 2-1 we'd often end up with 10.5h nights, but when they got shorter than that we'd cut more off the first nap and pull the second nap earlier to shorten the day, if that makes sense? So if that routine doesn't give enough A you could stretch the second or third A time or if that's not enough, then cap the first nap to 45mins perhaps, or you may not even need to cap it by that much (my DS was sensitive to 5min caps!), but that should help you to get more A into the daytime without making the night too short/wakeful. Sorry rambling, hope something makes sense out of that :P
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Hi Timbler!
Thanks for responding. I think that's a good start especially since the A times and nap lengths were very similar with the exception to the longer A before BT. It resulted in a better night so I think I can try this for a couple of days and see what I get :)
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Great :) Just try to stick to it for a few days as you say and log what happens, then we should get a better idea of how we can tweak ;)
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Yes for sure! I do wonder is a 28 minute nap OT?
The weekend was a little crazy so A times were not exactly where they needed to be and bedtime was a mess. Yesterday and today I continued with the 3.5 first A and got OT naps. I resettled then they ended up being 1:15 hrs long. Today for my pm nap I got a 28 minute one. I tried putting him down at 3.5 A and he was playing then cried when I tried soothing him. Finally at 3.75 A he SS to sleep.
I'm assuming he's really OT from the weekend or this it UT bc his morning nap went over an hr? He was crying when he woke up but took 20 minutes and a feed to settle to sleep again. Maybe hunger since he wasn't fond of lunch today.
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Hmm it's hard to say. You could always pull back on that first A, since you want the am nap to be a bit UT, ideally, rather than OT. That 28min nap could have been OT, especially since he resettled relatively easily. I suspect he may just be a bit OT from the weekend. Where do you think, in the day, he's most likely to be able to catch up with OT? Some LOs do really well with EBT for that; others don't tack on and do better with a longer nap somewhere - whilst others might find a long nap interferes with night sleep and exacerbates the OT cycle. Do you have a feel for how yours catches up best? Some lie in, I think yours does? But just keep an eye not to let him lie in too long...
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I could try that today in terms of pulling back the first A a tad. Last night was pretty good. He went down close to 9 which was due to a strange nap day. Yesterday went like this:
NW 8:12-8:56 pm (OT and wired after getting home), 1:11, 4:34 am
Total 11 hrs
WU 7:30 am
S 10:58-12:10 pm (A 3:28; SS; woke up at 29)
S 3:57-4:25 pm (A 3:47; acres tired around 3A laying down in his play area but fought sleep when I tried around 3:30 A. Playing and active. Cried when trying to sooth him to sleep until he calmed down close to 3.75A and SS; woke up at 28 minutes)
S 4:50-5:33 pm (after nurses)
BT 8:53 (A 3:20)
NW 11:30 (woke up screaming and crying), 5am, 6:50-7am (held him to sleep since he had less than a 10 hour night)
I notice either he will lie in or nap slightly longer either for the am or pm nap depending on the day. I can count on my hand how many times he actually did a EBT successfully but then again it has been awhile and as with all babies, they change on us lol If it's a bad nap day I have done earlier BT and as long as there was enough A he does pretty well.
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I'm sorry I'm just really confused. He has been fighting sleep all day despite me trying earlier then he wakes up after 25-35 minutes. This is a breakdown of yesterday and today:
I also let him sleep in bc of the weekend.
WU 7:59 am
S 11:21- 1:04 pm (A 3:23; fought sleep; got him drowsy in my arms then PD then he SS; woke up at 34 minutes fussy; took 5 minutes to resettle but was fighting it; woke up again very fussy at 1:03 but went straight back to sleep)
S 4:36- 5:28 pm (A 3:32; got him drowsy in my arms bc he was wide awake then PD; woke up at 25 minutes; fought resettling)
BT 9:01 pm (A 3:33; crying and screaming fighting sleep. Would not go down beforehand)
NW 11:10, 3:30 then diaper leak at 7 am; dozed off (with a lot of coercion) from 7:45-8:20 which helped him get 11 hrs. I put him down at an A of 3:20. He went down without a peep then wakes up 35 minutes later!
I'm all types of baffled! Letting him catch up on sleep seems like its backfiring. He's consistently doing 10 hr nights with 2NW. He used to sleep in but now won't unless I really try hard. Are 35 minute naps UT?
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They can be UT, but LOs won't tend to resettle quickly when UT. It may be that you'll have to push a bit so as to be able to resettle an OT nap and consolidate daytime sleep to one long nap (with or without resettling) and a CN. If he struggles to settle for his morning nap at less than 3.5h then you could just go for 3.5h? I know it's tricky if you want him to nap for, say, 45mins and he goes and does 30min. Then you could choose to either resettle for another 15mins, or just get him up and move the pm nap a little earlier - but remember, the idea of capping the morning nap is to get a nice long pm nap. Iiwm, I'd probably just get him up and hope that he makes up for it with a long nap later, since I'm getting the feeling he might need a bit more pushing. Then again, if you'd rather go back to pushing out the first A instead, then by all means do that - but I'd personally try to avoid giving him a shorter first A and then letting him do a long first nap too (resettled). [However, I know some LOs have found that works for them...they're all different of course!] I guess I just want to encourage you to decide on something and stick with it a while so that you can see where it might be working and where it's not. So... Is it the short UT first nap you want to try now, or the long first A with long nap? You decide - but we either need to push him for the first nap and resettle where necessary, or make sure he doesn't sleep more than an hour (say) for his first nap and push his second A - I think :-*
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I definitely appreciate the support! He's a head scratcher when it comes to naps etc. He is going through a developmental leap and is cutting his top teeth so it may be still affecting naps and EMW.
I would like enforce a short am/long pm as my hope is that it will discourage EMW . So not sure if I should keep it at 3.5 and just cap it at an hour at most? Today I woke him up after an hour (I resettled at 35). I'm going to try a 3.5 A before the pm nap and see how it goes.
So to clarify if you were me you wouldn't resettle even if it's a 30 minute am nap and not do a shorter A in the am correct?
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Haha now you're putting me on the spot ;D well... Oh it's hard to say, I'm sorry! You've done what you've done for today, see how it goes and you may want to try the same again tomorrow. Just try the same for a few days and see what happens, we can work from there :-*
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Haha! Yes I sure did ;D
Ok I will see how the pm nap goes at a 3.5 A then try it for a few days :). I should know in about 3-4 days correct?
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Haha well we can certainly keep chatting about it, you know I don't like to make promises :P but I also meant to keep doing the same for the am nap, since it's both As and the first nap length combined which need to be consistent in order to see if they're working. I mean, you could keep the 3.5h second A consistent but the effect won't be if the first nap varies in length or was taken at a different time. So if you've decided to wake after an hour in the morning then stick to that for a while and then give the 3.5h A, does that make sense?
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Yes definitely makes sense :)
Ok we will see how it goes. I tried a second A of 3.5 and he was not really having it lol he fell asleep closer to 3.40 A but woke up at 35 ??? Then I managed to pat him back to sleep in less than a minute so I'll see how long this nap is. Maybe it was slightly UT or OT or who knows haha
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Probably OT but try not to worry about that for now - we suspect he's generally OT right now anyway and he needs some good sleeps to catch up - which he won't if he's UT. So a resettled OT is probably what we want...I think :P
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Ok! I say OT is definitely better than UT.
Well he woke up at 55 minutes trying to go to sleep but kept popping back up, I went into the room and took me 15 minutes to settle. That's never happened before.
My general question is how long does it take for an OT baby to get back on track? I know every baby is different I'm just wondering if there is a range.
Also is it possible that he may need a little less sleep? I guess I won't know for another couple of days.
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I'm a bit confused, sorry - was that his second nap, waking at 35 and then 55 and then resettled again? How long did he go for in the end?
Oh dear I'm afraid there's such a range for getting over OT, quite dependent on what routine you're aiming for too etc. I think sometimes I've been 'lucky' and just tried the right thing for my LO and it's worked, whilst other times I too just get caught in a cycle for ages. Trouble is, they're all different and what works for one may not with another.
It's certainly possible that he doesn't need as much sleep as you're trying to get him to have, I guess a good indicator of that is to log what's actually happening together with his behaviour. But I won't pretend it's easy :-\ :-*
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Haha it's anything but easy!
So it was his pm nap where he woke up at 35 then 55; I managed to resettle and he slept for 1:40.
I put him down for bed 3.5 after the pm nap and he woke up 1.5 hrs after BT screaming and crying. It could be BT was too late or it was discomfort.
Today I put him down for his am nap and he woke up at 25 minutes due to construction noises am outside. I even have white noise but it was really loud. Anyways, I tried to resettle for 15 minutes then gave up and moved on. Now ok waiting to see how the rest of the day goes.
I figure OT takes a bit to sort out especially when trying to establish a new nap schedule. Almost feels like I'm running in circles bc he's OT so I can't decipher whether A times are ok and this is nights are funny which add to the OT. Funny thing is we are traveling next week where there will be a 3 hour time difference. So everything I'm doing here will be blown up when we go away lol
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How annoying about the construction work :( with you there, the flat below us is having their kitchen and bathroom replaced (and flooring, and probably more too!), so naps are rather hit and miss at the moment here. Also going away in a couple of weeks for SIL's wedding - four days of either travelling or parties, so probably little sleep there too...sometimes we just have to 'go with the flow', but as a definite Myers-Briggs 'J' myself, I do find that very hard :P
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haha! I also find myself having a really hard time going with the flow and now worrying about my DS not being well rested ::)
Funny that's where we are going too! My SIL is getting married in a week so that's why we are flying out.
Here's to going with the flow!
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;D
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So interesting thing happened:
I did a 3.25A this morning to try for a UT nap. He woke up from noise as I mentioned before and probably UT since he didn't settle even with APOP. So I did another A of 3.25 and he actually napped for 1:10 straight. I resettled but it took 15 minutes. Not sure if the noise woke him up or maybe bc first nap was shorter on the A side he wasn't as tired.
Anyways, I'm wondering if maybe an hour am nap is either too much or I need to maybe push the second A after an hr nap to get a decent pm nap. not sure how to work it out for a 13 hr day.
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So he napped 1:10 and then resettled afterwards, but it took 15mins? How long did he nap for in total that time?
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He ended up doing 1.5 hrs then I did an almost 3.5 A to bed. He woke up 2 hours crying then rest of the night was ok. He woke up at around 2 for a feed then at almost 6 for another feed then up for the day at 7:30. He did an 11 hour night.
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Well that's interesting, doesn't sound too bad really? So perhaps something like this could work...
7:30 Up
10:45-11:30 nap 1
3:15-4:45 nap 2
8:15 BT
Just thinking aloud really - sounds like he was a touch OT today and of course his naps had gaps for resettling so that pushes the day out a bit, doesn't it - if he slept straight through he'd need either slightly longer naps or slightly longer A times. My tentative plan above has a longer second A than today, since the first nap there is 45mins and you don't want a UT second nap. But you could probably come up with something better yourself :-*
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Hi Timbler!
Well the little guy just made things more interesting lol
Today he ended up doing a 3.5A to the minute and gave me an hour nap uninterrupted and woke up happy!
I went for a 3.5 A and he was falling asleep however something he ate upset his stomach so he was crying and pooped in that moment of trying to settle. He is now asleep after3.75A in my arms. He stirred around 50 minutes but kept sleeping. I'm thinking:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45
S 3:30-5 pm
BT 8:30 pm
Maybe this can work?
So perhaps he's getting over his OT?
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Yes, perhaps - although I'm afraid I couldn't quite follow how yesterday actually went, please could you write it out for me to make it a bit clearer for my poor sleep-deprived brain? :P
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Lol yes I'm sorry!!!
Here's how the yesterday and last night went:
NW 10:36 (screaming and crying), 2:23 am (fed but restless afterwards), 5:50 am
Total 10.5
WU 7:33 am
S 11:02- 11:57 am (A 3:29; SS)
S 3:42- 5:13 pm )A 3:45; was falling asleep at 3:30A but pooped again (food affected him); stirred around 49 mark)
BT 8:45 pm (A 3:32)
NW 11:54-12:33 (crying and restless; may have been stomach issues; settled when I fed); 5:11 am
Woke up for the day at 7:15 with 10 hours of sleep :-\
Wondering if I should cap his am nap?
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Hmm sounds a bit OT, but then that second nap was delayed from what you'd intended and that stirring halfway through might indicate that he was already OT. How about try same again, but feed him a bit earlier before that second nap, in the hope that any poo happens before you want to PD? But if the same thing happens again, I'd keep BT to 8:30 as planned, to keep the same overall A, rather than push it back to keep the same last A - does that make sense?
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Ok! Sorry now my slow sleep deprived mommy brain isn't processing when you say keep overall A the same but not the last A when having BT at 8:30?
Yes I'm thinking I will do:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45 am
S 3:30-5 pm
BT 8:30 pm
Yesterday he had around 2 hours of day sleep and slept much better with no EMW!! He slept 11 hours!
I'm definitely seeing improvement ;D
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Yeah sorry, I wasn't clear, was I? :P I just meant that if the second nap is delayed then he's had a slightly longer second A, so don't then delay BT in order to maintain a consistent last A, because he'll already be more tired due to having that longer second A - so keep BT the same if the nap was later but the same length - does that make sense?
Great to hear of improvement, well done both of you :D
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Ahhhhh yes that makes total sense! Wish I did that today lol So I think something is going on bc today he woke up at 25 minutes after going down for naps. Last night he was up every 1.5-2 hrs :o
I think he may be starting to teeth again!
This is the EASY we came up with correct?
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45 am
S 3:30-5 pm
BT 8:30 pm
I just want to make sure I didn't go crazy with A times lol
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Aw poor thing, yes it does sound like discomfort, doesn't it? :-\
Yes I think that was what we came up with together as a starting point - after a few days of it we may be able to see more clearly where to tweak, but then again if he's teething it won't be perfect :-*
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Yes it looks like discomfort. I saw a little white blotch where I can see the tooth under the gums on each lateral incisor this morning. He has been whimpering a bit in his sleep too. So I guess here we go again ::)
Last night he went to bed OT bc we were hesitant on giving medicine especially since he just went through cutting his top central incisors. They aren't even fully grown in! But after he fought sleep and high pitch cried, we gave him tylonel so as expected he woke up OT twice but slept better the rest of the night. Today he woke up again at 28 minutes into his am nap despite giving him teething tablets. This happened yesterday as well. I resettled him in two minutes and will wake him up at 45 minutes to an hour. Then do a 3:75 A for second nap. I did that yesterday after an almost 1:10 nap but he gave me another 1:10 nap (after resettling) so maybe if I cut the am nap by 10-15 minutes it will tack onto the second nap.
Any thoughts?
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So for the pm nap he woke after 25 minutes crying ??? I put him down around 3.75 after the am nap. Perhaps it is teething. This the second day he has woke up before a half hour into each nap.
Should I be putting him down earlier if he's teething?
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Teething can definitely mess things up :-\ I think it's quite common for those top lateral incisors to come in soon after, or even together with, the top central ones. I really wouldn't worry about medicating for that, I personally give meds before lunch/nap and again at BT, sometimes another does during the night too. Just don't exceed the maximum number of doses over 24h and of course don't give more than the recommended dose each time, but other than that, it's very common for these LOs to be getting pain meds for several days whilst teething/ill... I'd be more concerned if I didn't know the reason for the fever/discomfort and then would take my LOs to the doc if I was having to keep giving the meds for an unknown reason - but since it's clearly teething, you already know what to do :-*
LOs often do get more tired when teething, partly I'm sure because their sleep isn't so good, but the constant discomfort is probably also tiring for them. So for that reason you might find that he needs to go down a little earlier than usual, but I wouldn't drastically change your routine because of it.
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That makes sense!
Last night he slept for 8 hours straight! I'm hoping this is bc his routine has been more on track ;D I did give him medicine before bed but by the morning he was tossing and turning from discomfort poor baby. Nonetheless a much better night!
As for medication, my only concern is that he's SUCH a slow teether so I have given him meds for two weeks at a time for bedtime and then homeopathic stuff for naps! I'm so worried that that's too much for his little body so that's why I'm trying to be as conservative as possible since we just got through the top central ones cutting.
Anyways, I'm going to stick with the routine and resettle if needed unless he clearly shows me he wants to go to sleep sooner. He's very active and happy nonetheless. It's only naps getting cut short. Today was 33 minutes into the am which is some improvement.
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Great night-time stretch there :D
Yeeeaah... I guess I just don't worry about giving the meds any more, DD is also a frustratingly slow (and late!) teether but I don't want to tell you to do something you're not comfortable with. Not sure how it works your side of the pond, but over here we can just pop into a local pharmacy and chat about that sort of thing?
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Yes! :D I'm hoping it wasn't a fluke. But it's about to go haywire since we leave town tomorrow and we are going across time zones. Of course right before we go away, he starts to sleep amazingly...such a tease lol
I have been slowly shifting his routine forward the last couple of days with the hope the we aren't getting up at 5 am while away!
I have a question: when coming back do I gradually shift his routine back again or do I do it in one swoop?
Thank you for all your help!
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Well I think I pushed too hard for a late bedtime bc it backfired. :-\
I managed to get him to an almost 10 pm BT since hopefully it would mean a 9 am wake up which would convert to a 6 am wake up in our destination. Well instead I got NW every 3 hours and a 7:30 wake up smh he refuses to go back to sleep. I'm sort of freaking out at the fact I am starting off with an OT baby.
I'm wondering if there are any tips for this sort of situation or do I just roll with it in hopes he will just adjust for the next few days away.
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Changing time zones must be such a pain :-\ So basically, you're trying to shift 1.5h, right? I suspect there are lots of opinions on this! I personally like to do daylight savings changes very slowly if possible, my 5yo can cope with bigger jumps now but when my LOs have been younger they've needed gradual changes. So I guess I'd lean towards doing it slowly in your case, since you're only shifting 1.5h, as opposed to, say, 5h.
At least though, whatever happens, you know roughly what to aim for on your return, once he's caught up with OT. I'm sure there used to be a FAQ on adjusting between time zones, I'm going to ask/dig around for it...
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Ha! It will be! We leave tomorrow so unfortunately no more time to shift but good to know for next time. I did too much too fast and it resulted in DS having an OT short night.
I would love a link to cope with the return bc I'm definitely a little nervous about getting him back on track. Thankfully it's only a few days so it will help bouncing back sooner rather than later. :D
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Hi there, hope you enjoy the trip and manage not to worry too much - I'll try to follow that advice next weekend ;)
Asked around for the link, was broken, now fixed, so here it is :) The first link on the page has stuff specific to changing time zones, but you may find other bits useful, sorry if it's a bit late now :-\
Travel tips and activities for a baby/toddler - BY AIR
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Thank you Timbler!
I checked out the links briefly before I left. Thankfully I loosely followed the EASY. We weren't there long enough for DS to wake later than 6 am but I figure it will make the transition easier (hopefully!). He is OT of course but handled it rather well while away. We traveled back today which was harder on him since we went 3 hours forward this time. I am bracing myself for a very rough night!
I'm going to follow the routine we agreed on before the trip and reevaluate after a week.
I am wondering how to get back on track in terms of SS. I did a loads of APOP on the trip which lasted a week. I nursed to sleep for naps and bedtime, tons of car naps, and holding to sleep as well as co-sleeping (which has been going on for months but on the trip became more cumbersome for me). I just tried setting him down at my parents house and he wasn't having it lol to be fair he's jet lagged and we are still not home. Any tips?
I hope you enjoyed your trip as well!
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Hi there and welcome back :) Glad to hear he handled it all well, despite the OT, hope you enjoyed it too? We're actually leaving on Friday, back late Monday, so won't be around here during that time. No time changes involved for us, thankfully, just the usual disruptive travel (neither of mine were any good at sleeping on the go ::) ) and all being in the same room, etc.
Tbh I'd try to get back on top of SS as soon as you can, if you're too exhausted the first night back I don't blame you, but certainly after that, iiwm I'd try to be consistent and yes it might be a rough day or two, but then it probably would be anyway - you should find that he'll catch on much quicker this time so even if it's a rough start, things should improve soon if you don't cave in :-* You'll probably need to give him a few EBTs whilst he catches up with the OT though.
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Well it's great you don't have to worry about time differences! I hope you all enjoy yourselves!
As for me, I tried to put him down for a nap in the crib and it was an utter fail. I aimed for the 3.5 first A. He cried and screamed a very high pitched cry like in pain rolling around and tugging his ear. I PU until he was calm and drowsy then put back down but he reacted the same. I do notice his two lateral incisors are about to cut through now so looks like that could be factoring into it. I gave him teething tablets but perhaps it's not enough. Perfect timing with us being back and me trying to get him back to the crib and SS ::)
So now what? Do I try a gradual withdrawal or just plow on?
If it's not one thing it's another with these babes!
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Aw poor thing :( have you tried pain meds, eg ibuprofen? If the teeth are really bothering him then I wouldn't worry about using medication, I'd positively encourage it! I just wonder about the high pitched scream on PD... Do you think that lying flat is causing him pain? That could be due to reflux (tends to flare with teething) or even an ear infection (any other symptoms of that, other than ear tugging, which apparently is usually associated with teething rather than ear infection?). Or do you think he's just protesting the change in routine from the last week?
I've asked others to look out for you whilst I'm away :-*
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I haven't used meds for naps only nighttime which definitely helps. Poor thing is on a biting rampage to help his gums. He's fussy and tugs his ear or hair but no other symptoms that would indicate an ear infection. He's also very clingy which is the norm when he's about to cut teeth or he may be clingy from the trip too. Maybe the plane ride did something? Maybe I should call the doctor?
I think it's a mix of teething and clinginess that is making him cry so hard and high pitch bc when I picked him up he somewhat calmed down. I also think he may be jet lagged too. I let him sleep and he woke up after about 1.25; I just got him down after a 4 hr A. Our time is so off due to the time difference. He woke up at 9 today! Hoping to get him back to a 7:30 wake up time soon.
I also plan on doing a gradual withdrawal for sleep. Tomorrow I want to put him in the crib asleep and work my way backwards from there.
I appreciate vouching for support while you're gone. I so appreciate this! I feel like things are all over the place routine wise. I am trying to remind myself that it will take some time to get back on track.
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Well today he played and played in his crib after crying a little after I set him down. I tried at about 3.25 bc he was acting as though he was tired at about 3 hrs A. I figured well he is teething and it's bothering him loads where he woke up 4 times last night despite giving him meds, so maybe he's just more tired. But that was a total fail! Finally at about 3:40A, he started crying I tried PD and it made him angrier and cry harder. He screamed and cried very high pitch until I picked him up ??? He finally fell asleep in my arms at about 3.75A then I put down in crib. He woke up 32 minutes later ugh.
I don't know if it's because he needs a jump in A despite me doing a short am/long pm? Or is it because he's still on a 3 hour time difference routine where his wake up is now 10am?! So his body is all out of whack in terms of sleep readiness?or is his teeth bothering him so much that he's extra clingy and unable to get comfortable? All of a sudden he hates his crib!
I know we just got back and maybe I need to be patient with getting back on track but wondering if any thoughts or tips on this type of situation?
I'm about to start medicating for naps too if it isn't a routine thing. Right now I'm using tablets and Camila before naps.
Update: last night he was up every 2 hours! Not sure if it's teething or OT or UT/OT?! Ahhhhh we were making such amazing progress before the trip !
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I could really use a little help on DS's routine.
Yesterday he did a 2 hr am nap and 30 minute pm nap. Usually he does a short am/long pm nap but yesterday passed out after nursing. He is teething really badly and despite me cutting his first A by 15 minutes hoping for a UT nap he was still pretty exhausted. Anyways last night I got a long playful NW between 5-6 despite feeding him; he was WIDE awake and chatty. Then he woke up early, only after 9 hours of sleep! I assume he had too much day sleep and/or not enough A?
Since getting back from our trip, I can't figure out his A times anymore!
This is where we were beforehand:
WU 7:30
S 11-11:45 am
S 3:30-5pm
BT 8:30 pm
Now its all over the place where he will give me an OT nap of 30 minutes and I will resettle and let him go for an hour then he fights his pm nap until around 4 hrs A and give me a 40-45 minute nap. I'll do BT 3.25 hrs later and he is restless. Tossing and turning then waking up 1.5 hrs after BT. After that, he will wake two more times.
Anyone have any thoughts? Should I just maintain the same routine from before the trip in hopes that this will pass or should I tweak somewhere? DS is about to be 11 months in two days.
Thank you!
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Hi Jenn, many hugs! I know how awful nws are and the broken sleep is so hard! I haven't read through the entire thread, but please remind me when you returned from your trip? (Nm! Found it! 4/27!)
So what was his EAS yesterday? I see that you've posted in naps and are getting support with the teething. That was also a huge deal for us during this time as well... tons of unsettled sleep.
I think you're seeing a combo of too much day sleep and adjusting to time change like you said (but should take 2-5 days depending on the child to reset with enough light exposure), teething, then consequently OT from the unsettled sleep. I know... all answers so it's like no answer. It's so hard when so much is going on. At this point, would you be willing to try set WU time, nap times and morning nap length (with teething meds/support and/or resettles) and see how he does after 3-4 days?
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Hi Ginger!
Thank you so much for your response. I feel I'm kinda in the dark with his sleep. Truthfully he has always been a tough nut to crack and seems to be affected by anything and everything lol
Anyways, thankfully today he started his day at 8 which is a half hour later than his usual WU prior to the trip. So I guess the short UT/OT night was a blessing in disguise. I was kinda hoping for a later WU since I too am still adjusting lol
So this has been his EASY for yesterday:
NW 11:31 pm, 5 am (fed)
Total 11.5
WU 8:43 am
S 11:56- 12:28 pm (A 3:14; biting a lot and irritable but tired)
S 12:36-1:55 pm (after nursing which is very unusual )
S 6:05-6:38 (A 4/10; fighting sleep and not tired)
BT 10:01 pm (A 3:24; was not going to sleep; restless and stirred at 1.5 hrs)
NW for last night were 2:48 am (fed since he was rooting and crying), 5:30-6:20ish (fed; but wide awake and chatty)
Today thus far:
Total ~9.25
WU 7:58 am
S 11:21-11:54 am (A 3:22; fighting sleep beforehand but yawning)
I am willing to do a set WU for 7:30. He seems to do around an 11 hour night unless he is catching up on sleep or just really tired from say illness or teething then he does a 12 hour night.
I'm wondering where to start with naps to actually set them. I like the short am/long pm bc whenever he does a long am, he can go over 4hrsA and still fight the nap so I think it would make the day too long?
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I guess he's adjusting to morning wake up faster than you. :) and Happy 11 months!
That was a short night for him wasn't it? For a shorter pm nap like that I would put down for bed a little earlier. When did you actually out him down and when did he fall asleep?
For naps, Maybe aim for the routine you had before if it was working before the trip. If the morning nap is 30 mins, bring the afternoon nap slightly earlier if DS seems tired and keep bedtime the same so that he's tired for it. If naps don't fall into place in a few days, we can add to your post jn Naps to get eyes there.
Has his NWs reduced to 2 from more? How are you putting him back down after feeds? Are you trying to wean the night feedings?
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Hi Ginger!
Thank you! Yes he's quite the character at 11 months ;D
Yes anything less than 10.5 night sleep is short for him. The A times I listed are the times he actually falls asleep. It usually takes him 5-10 minutes to drift off unless he's fighting sleep then it tends to be more. I aim for the routine we had but the pm nap is beginning to be a fight at 3.75 A so not sure if it means he's OT (from teething) or UT bc he's been on this routine for a bit. So confusing isn't it?
This was yesterday's EASY:
WU 7:58 am
S 11:21-11:54 am (A 3:22; fighting sleep beforehand but yawning;
S 3:36- 5:29 pm (A 3:42; fought sleep a little biting my sleeves; PD in crib; woke up at 38 and again briefly at 48 fussy took 4 minutes to resettle. Maybe slightly UT or OT)
BT 9:11 pm (A 3:42; fought bedtime)
NW 12:35, 1:20 (fed), 5:20 (fed),
Woke up at 8:12 I nursed him then he fell back asleep until 9 ::)
Today he did a 30 minute am (I woke) after a 3.25 which he didn't put up a fight which was nice; then the pm he fought a bit and went down close to 4 hrs A then wakes up at 26 minutes crying ??? He just plays and plays until windown. Then fights sleep at 3:75. Again not sure if it's teething related, OT or just not tired enough.
Last night he had 4 NW but slept in so had a 12 hour night! He usually does an 11 hour night. I admit I didn't set my alarm clock so we slept in.
Before the trip and the teething business, he was self weaning and I was encouraging it by resettling in other ways if he woke before 6 hours after a feed. He was down to 1 or 2 NF. I was working on eliminating one NF to then to ultimately wean completely. With the teething he just wants to nurse so I. Feel like we are back to square one. Last night he nursed 3 times despite my efforts to resettle him without a feed.
So I'm overall confused about the pm nap and bedtime. I'm ok with a short am nap but then it has gotten mucky with the A after the am nap then the A after the pm.
So I'm thinking while he's teething putting him down for the am at 3.25A for a 30-45 minute nap. After that I'm clueless bc he's giving me a mixed bag.
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Truthfully he has always been a tough nut to crack and seems to be affected by anything and everything lol
Sounds like my DS! And all your efforts, very similar to my struggles around that time. Dropped to 1 NF, then with holidays and new surroundings, etc... added a comfort feed. Became a habit and had to sleep train, unfortunately. And naps were on and off for us... crazy bad or pretty good, which also required some gentle training. He might be extending his A's but hard to tell... and this period is hard because with 3-4 A times, it's hard to fit in the naps!
S 3:36- 5:29 pm (A 3:42; fought sleep a little biting my sleeves; PD in crib; woke up at 38 and again briefly at 48 fussy took 4 minutes to resettle. Maybe slightly UT or OT)BT 9:11 pm (A 3:42; fought bedtime)
I can't seem to find when you start your bt routine after the last pm nap... sorry if I missed it. I gather he is uncomfortable with teeth and wants comfort, but he may still be OT with all the unsettled sleep... especially if he woke in the first part of the night (within 3 hours). Is he showing any signs of being tired around 7:30/8pm?
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Haha oh man so you feel my pain and struggles! Right now I'm actually doing a gradual withdrawal method with naps bc when we first got back he refused to sleep in the crib. On our trip he was mostly sleeping in the car or on rare occasions in my arms. Anyways, I plan to go back to gentle weaning. Should I start even though he's teething. Last night he only woke up twice to eat but stirred 1.5 hrs after bedtime. He took an hour pm nap but I guess 3.5A before sleeping was too much and he was still OT I imagine from the bad nights.
Today the am nap was 36 minutes which is fine but the pm nap he woke up at 28 minutes (I resettled) but then he only slept about 1:13 before waking up fussy before falling asleep agin on my shoulder after waking up fussy ugh. So do I cut his A time a bit and start windown at 3.5 to be asleep by 3.75? can waking up again like this mean OT? Maybe laying down is too painful?
I think a major problem is A. Teething B. Too late of bedtime. I notice that he's so much more unsettled when he goes to bed past 8:30 pm which is why I had him on a 7:30-8:30 EASY. He doesn't show signs around 7:30-8 bc he's waking up later. Usually he's playing like crazy after dinner but then cries during most of our routine except for baths and when I'm nursing. Maybe OT?
I'm going to aim for a 3.25A before bed tonight and see if that helps. It used to be if he napped for over an hour in the afternoon he would be fine with a 3.5A before sleep.
You're right it's hard to tell if he's trying to expand A times or he's just OT and teething sigh!
So this is what I'm doing tomorrow:
WU 8 am
S 11:15-11:45ish (3.25)
S 3:30-5ish pm (3.75)
BT 8:15-8:30 pm (3.5)
Does that sound ok? Only issue is that makes him have an 11.5 hour night. It may be too much for him right now. Last night he did a 10.5 night but his bedtime pushed to 10 so that's definitely a major reason.
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Hey Jenn :-* so sorry, I'm back now but kind of hit the ground running and can't keep up! But just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten you, send more (((hugs))) and let Ginger continue with her fresh eyes and btdt, whilst I pop on when I can :-*
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Hey Timbler!
I hope you had a great trip! Thank you so much for your support; I really appreciate it!
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Today the am nap was 36 minutes which is fine but the pm nap he woke up at 28 minutes (I resettled) but then he only slept about 1:13 before waking up fussy before falling asleep agin on my shoulder after waking up fussy ugh.
This. The story of my life around that time. Haha. BUT IT PASSED! And for what it's worth, you really are doing the best you can and I admire that you are willing to soothe your babe and comfort him this way. Every day might be different for a little while, but it will eventually fall into place. It did for us! I remember it getting really nice around the 13/14 mo mark... ups and downs of course, but mostly better. Half bdays and bdays are weird, so hang in there!
As for your EAS tomorrow, again, so hard to say, but my gut instinct is that he's OT for his pm nap along with BT being a tad late. Watch him tomorrow and if he needs go down a tad earlier for pm nap, do it. I would keep am nap where it is and not bring it earlier... that might cause earlier WU. I think you're getting early NW's because of the OT. FWIW for weaning, I used GW and also reduced time BF... I literally timed each nf and reduced it by XX seconds each subsequent night for several days. Then I used a version of Elizabeth Pantley's method.. link below. Scroll down to PANTLEY'S GENTLE REMOVAL PLAN.
PANTLEY'S GENTLE REMOVAL PLAN
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Hi Ginger!!
I sooooooo appreciate your encouragement and sharing your experience. Makes me feel so much better knowing that hey I'm doing my best and that there is a light at the end of a long tunnel lol
Anyways, I agree with your gut instinct DS is OT and that's what's causing the EMW and NW. I plan on pushing up the pm nap by 10-15 minutes or earlier depending how he acts. I just got him to go to sleep despite me going for him being asleep by 3.5A. Once again he fought it until just before 3.75. We shall see how the night goes.
But I like the plan I'm wondering if I should still aim for bedtime with the same A or maybe even less like 3.25 to see if maybe as his OT resolves he stops fighting BT.
As for the gradual method of weaning. I am all for it! I would like him wean completely from BF by 12 months so I have my work cut out for me! I'll check out the link. How many seconds did you shorten it every few days. I feel like DS will fight the process so the more gradual the better in my eyes.
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Hi honey - just popping by :)
I haven't read your whole thread. I'm aware you have been away and your routine went off track but looking at the last couple of pages only perhaps gives me a different idea.
Can you remind me if your LO has been sleep trained and is an independent sleeper now?
To me the routine looks like he's on his 2-1 journey and honestly things just go haywire. Anyone who gets through that smoothly is blessed. My DS's 2-1 was hard hard work, I try not to remember it but the memory lingers yk?
WRT the NWs and NFs I also have a different idea. Now usually I am the one who goes for the gradual approach wherever possible, I don't like doing anything cold turkey although have been forced to on occasion. But in this instance I can't help but think you need to just drop those NFs, IMO there comes a point where waking at night is just disturbing sleep and not really doing him any favours. I understand he is teething but teething almost never ends, mine was teething pretty much permanently through the entire year from 1yo to 2yo (we had three days off between canines and molars) and what's on my mind is that you want to wean BF in a month anyway but if you continue to BF for comfort you could end up at it another 12 months yet through that big teething time. Is that something you could realistically cope with? IIWM, in this case, I would grit my teeth and comfort him without feeding for his NWs.
Personally I think you might be better off with a new thread for 2-1 support or for dropping the NF support. It's quite hard for anyone to join in when a thread is 9 pages and when various things have changed and a new thread could refocus everyone's attentions, including your own as it may be a case that with so many different things going on you are not fully focused on getting one thing straight yk?
IME when things are already off track it's a great time to 'fix' stuff. Most of our best routine fixes have been when DS was ill or teething because he was already off track so I used it to my advantage.
Just my thoughts. xx
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Hi Creations!
Thank you for your insight! I was actually thinking about just dropping the feeds one by one; comforting in other ways and hoping it sticks. Realistically I don't want to nurse past 12 months but then I wonder if there is SO much work to do in such a short time with my DS who LOVES milk. I can post that on the breastfeeding thread?
He does self soothe to sleep however, I am there which I know doesn't exactly constitute as independent sleep. We share a room so there is no putting him in a separate room yk? Since our trip I have been working on getting back to SS since he was very clingy coming back and cried when I put him down in the crib. He is still not self settling properly! He either starts standing or crawling around playing or cries. I notice he only wants to sleep upright on my shoulder which leads me to believe it's the teeth. They are so close to cutting but I may have to consider giving him more than teething tablets before naps. He's in pain throughout the day biting things including me violently so I give him puree pops, cold washcloths or teethers
So in the last week I used gradual withdrawal to get him back there and hopefully SS. I know I will have to get to the place of just putting him down and walking away so I do need support in a gradual approach for an infant in the same room.
I agree it's definitely the 2-1; I have to strike the perfect balance of day sleep and A time to get the best nights. Before the trip, he was starting to do long 8 hour stretches, feed, then back asleep for another 2.5-3 hours. We had a pretty good routine going. Now we are back to square one with 2-3 NW a night and an added feed totaling to 2 NF ugh. Last night was 3 NW which one was before 3 hours after BT so I assume OT; he was also whimpering a lot in his sleep and rolling around a lot.
It's like he's so sensitive to A times. I definitely can't decipher the right A times and teething is not helping. Today he woke up after 25 minutes during his morning nap! He only went down 10 minutes after his usual time. I don't know if his OT is getting worse or the teething is :'(
So I guess my question is where do I post? In Naps? Here again just on a new thread? Do I do two posts: one for dropping night feeds and one for 2-1 support including gradually getting him to complete independent sleep?
Needless to say I need serious help!
Sorry for rambling!
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As I am useless with BF support I would first post there for dropping NFs. I would mention that you want to stop BF at 12 months if that is your plan.
I would imagine you could have all NFs gone in 3 days or a week max, it's not something that I imagine taking weeks and weeks. then with that gone you can move on to support on the next thing.
Routine wise I would muddle through as best you can until you have those NFs gone (not talking months here). It's the only thing I can think of really. I mean I'm not stopping you posting about 2-1 on a new thread right away, you can of course, it's only that in my mind the NWs for feeding are interrupting his sleep and what he needs is a really good long sleep so that you can move forward with the 2-1 routine. I would also medicate with paracetamol and probably ibuprofen too, I did with mine.
It's only my opinion honey you need to do what you feel is right xx
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Thank you!
I will go ahead and post on the BF board to stop NF immediately. I think you are right about needing more sleep at night; his nights are not even 11 hours for the last few days so something is definitely going on. At this point with his teething, its so hard to know what A times are good especially with the broken nights. He is also extra clingy all day and night.Oh and to top is off he is working on standing alone so there's that too messing with his sleep a bit lol An all around exhausting time for the both of us!
Just to clarify (this a questions for everyone who has been helping on this thread lol): posting about the 2-1 transition should be on which board...naps?
I would like to see if maybe there's something missing in the daytime routine, maybe a blindspot or something.
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Yes, 2-1 in Naps. And there is a support thread for it that you can probably read through and follow. But post your specific question and easy on new thread. Like Creations said, you might need to wait to see about day routine... And do what works each day as it comes.
I agree, lots going on and disrupted night sleep should be sorted.
Come to think of it, I think I did drop his last feed or so more quickly. I think the GW was when he was slightly younger? I do remember a time of holding him a ton when dropping a nf instead of gradually weaning (not recommending that but it's what worked for us). It's a jumbled mess in my head because his NFs lasted a while for us. Dropping quickly seems like a good idea since you have other things to sort out, but it might depend on how DS takes it.
For the time being, stick to an A that has worked and his body should adjust and be used to that time, especialy after sorting night sleep. Then reasses A times. This should help you with the day to day stress of trying tonfigure out times. Give yourself some slack and grace and maybe just use a +/-15 min window for A times. It's a messy time but you'll get through it! :)
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Excellent! Ginger, I am not opposed to your strategy as my DS is needing extra cuddles these days anyways and something tells me he will not go quietly into the night lol
Thank you ladies so much! I will post on the 2-1 soon as I already posted on the BF board to start the weaning tonight. Wish me luck!
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Good luck honey xxx
And BTW, like I said I do not have BF experience so I'd go with the advice you receive on the BF board WRT NFs, pain comfort etc.
Some of our worst teething nights I had to bring my DS back down stairs, I'm not suggesting it as a first option, not at all, it was last on the list for me, just saying I have been there when it is seriously bad and know how utterly awful it is. Many hugs and pain-less teething vibes for your LO xx
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Hey Jennifer,
I just posted here because I forgot that we started new threads. Going over to your new one to check in... if you could respond there as well. Thanks!