BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: ginger428 on April 14, 2016, 17:30:44 pm
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DS has had a few 9.5 hr nights, with capping nap at 1.5 hrs and waking before a certain time. It's frustrating because he is SO cranky when he gets less than 10 hrs. But he takes forever to fall asleep at night!
He seems really tired some mornings and fell asleep more than an hr before his usual nap time one afternoon. We might be in an UT/OT cycle? What do I do with that?
Our usual routine-
WU 6:30
Nap 1-2:30
BT 8:00
Lately it's been:
WU 6:15/6:30
Nap 11:45/12:30 (he fell asleep in the car or was yawning and starting to meltdown at home)
BT between 8:00-9:00 (even with a 7:20/7:30ish put down, tried 7:45)
Naps are between 1.10-1.30.
Any help is appreciated.
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DS woke at 5:45! Asleep at 8:20. That's less than 9.5 hrs. Ugh!!
Am I putting him down too late?
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I'd go for a much earlier BT rule out OT. Could be developmental of his Bday is coming up too x
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We just went through a cycle like this with DD. Our LO's seems very similar as usual ;D I totally think it's developmental. I noticed with DD that this occurs about every 2-3 months. She usually falls asleep within minutes easily but when she is in this cycle it takes her longer and she gets OT from it. EBT does not work here either, it just prolongs the BT struggle and/or leads to EW. Sorry, not much help but with us it is just matter of riding it out. How long has this been going on?
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Thanks Zoe and Suzanna.
Zoe, I am going to try for an earlier BT depending on his nap today. Sometimes he fights BT and cries during our routine, or wakes more during the night when I do this, like Suzanna mentioned, but I think the OT is catching up.
Suzanna, yes, I remember how similar A and M are. It's been a couple of weeks. You are so right about this happening every 2-3 months, except lately it's been every few weeks off and on. I'm sure it's a combination of developmental leap, growth spurt, teething, and illness. It's just overwhelming for me as I tend to obsess over his sleep and being a FTM doesn't help. I wish I could relax and let it go better.
My current dilemma is that he seems to be self-regulating his short nights with naps and will sleep longer if I let him. But just a month ago or so, I was here trying to figure out how his sleep needs were changing and ended up capping his nap and waking at a certain time. Do I let him catch up? It certainly does mess with BT though. What did you do?
Oh yeah, and about 3 weeks ago, he refused a nap! What a strange stage... haha.
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I have the same dilemma but because she is in daycare this is pretty much out of my hands :-\ I asked the daycare lady to cap her naps to 1hour 45 min - 1.5 hours but she has not really followed that. I am not sure whether it would have helped or not though. On weekends I capped her naps and it did not do much ::)
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Wanted others to comment first but I would also have suggested a much earlier bedtime to rule out OT. I think Ben is probably a bit higher sleep needs but with your routine of WU 6.30, nap 1-2.30 he'd be in bed for 7pm rather than 8. I'd be putting down for 7 for a bit and see where it gets you x
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Hey there Ginger :D sorry can't read through properly now so just dropping off hugs and will be back later :-* We're also going through a rough patch with DD and nights ::) Tried earlier BT tonight and seemed a bit better settling so we'll see what the rest of the night brings...
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Thanks guys!
Nap was very broken and he's acting so off and loopy, I'm definitely going to go for an earlier bedtime and see if that will catch him up. Not a Ebt really, just a put down-30 mins earlier to see if he'll settle sooner. Katherine- if only it were 23 hr days or M slept 11 hr nights right? Haha. .
*Update-
Ugh. Everything was off. Nap was 12:30-2:10, with 3-4 resettles. Was aiming for a put down at 7:00. Tried for dinner at 5:30, he wouldn't eat until after 6. M got hysterical during BT routine and cried for 20 mins. Finally got him down at 7:30. Fell asleep at 8:05.
Trimbler, sorry to hear about DD and nights. Thanks for the hugs! How much earlier did you do with DD?
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Hugs Ginger! I know too well what you mean about being obsessed by ds sleep. To us ebt does not work very well to rule out ot. I put ds in bed 30min earlier when he is very tired but it usually takes 30 to 45 min for him to fall asleep. In terms of total sleep does not help but it helps to avoid further stimulation for him. Ds usually catches up ot in very rare long naps coupled with very low key days.
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9 hr night. EW at 5am. Nap was 1.10. I tried hard to get him in bed by 7, but met resistance and more crying. Same thing happened the other night I tried to put him down early. I only tried twice but he seems to want at least 5.5 to bed (which is what he was doing consistently before it was thrown off). One of the last 3 nights, he went down around 7:40 (we were out and got back late) and he went to bed fine. Morning was fine too.
Suggestions for nap and BT today? Should I let him catch iup on sleep? He's been yawning all morning.
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Hugs, I know how frustrating this is for you. Yes I would let him catch up, because I suspect whatever this started out as it has now become OT. Remind me is he teething? When canines were coming through here's literally nothing worked routine wise and we just had to stick with our normal plan on the basis at least we knew what we were doing that way.
Ok just going to throw this out there - yes I totally get he could be very LSN. (Not my realm of experience really, DD was lower needs but did long nights with her shorter naps, and B is not LSN). In which case I would say once you get a good day you need to start capping his nap to 1h and see if his nights get better. But what if really he's not LSN at all? I just wonder if the fact that you say he only does x hours at night or needs x hours before bed prevents you trying something that may just work? Just musing and please ignore me if you wish! But to me a 5am WU, 1h10 nap and crying at 7pm bedtime would have said way OT by bedtime, not UT. I just wonder if you get super-brave and try a really really EBT one day whether it may just pay off? Say he always wakes after 9/10 hours....what if you had him in bed for 6pm? He'd wake at 3/4am and no way is he going to start the day then, his body clock won't let him! And you should (eventually) get a resettle and maybe get him out of this cycle?
But as ever, mummy knows best and I will readily admit that super LSN is not my forte :). Just wish I could make it better for you! :-* :-*
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I agree with Katherine that you can try one night to see if he catches up like that. This little sleep and loooong day definitely causes him to be OT now. what happens when he gets hysterical at BT? What do you do? I am just asking because with my kids I know that when they are OT I will have to help them get to sleep. And it is OK ... you know because once they are past the OT they get back to independent sleep just fine. Does maybe patting or holding longer settle him? When DD is OT I will stay next to her crib until she falls asleep and even pat her or rub her back. It feels like a step back for sure but I know that she needs it. Also, I know this might not be something you want to do ... but I have used melatonin in cases like that with DS and with DD too. I only use it maybe a couple nights until they catch up then stop using it. Melatonin is over to counter here in the US and you can pick it up in any pharmacy. It is not a sedative just a natural way to help an active brain to settle down for sleep ;)
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Maya- thanks for the hugs. Great points about the stimulation. Especially when OT.
Katherine, I always appreciate your valuable input. Thank you so much!
I agree it's currently OT along with whatever began the cycle. Yes, he's teething... canines are halfway through. Those were my thoughts, too... if he has a good day, to start capping nap at 1 hr. We have had a few 1 hr naps that don't seem to change the following WU, so does it take time for that to change? You actually suggested on fb to shave 15 min off nap at a time, and we were on our way there when sleep went awry. (And some sickness, etc... mixed in).
Oh, I know what you mean Katherine...thank you for the suggestion because it's good to evaluate all possibilities when sleep goes south. I am scared of doing early BT because he has waken as early as 4:30 or will have long NWs. One day 2 weeks ago he woke at 3 and was up for 2 hours. I also thought about him being LSN, and I went back and scoured previous sleep logs and it seems like that no matter what I did, he gave me consistent 10-10.5 nights, with an occasional 11 hr night mixed in. He was also averaging 12 or so hrs/day back at 18 months. And when he was younger, we always did early BT, around 5:30-6:00pm, but NWs were plentiful and his total sleep always added to about 12-13 (for when he was under 1yo). Also as a baby, he never met the 15-16 hrs/day that I heard of. He was always about 2 hrs below the average. Some posts on here helped me finally realize that he might be LSN and it was such a relief in a way. I constantly felt like I was doing something wrong. I've come to learn that it is such a HUGE guessing game and that in the end, our bubs will come out fine. The ride there, however, is devastating for parents, isn't it? Haha.
I am so confused... haha. I wish you could make it go away, too. LOL. Thanks for the hugs. I had been positive for so long regarding his sleep and now am back to feeling so exasperated. I also feel extremely guilty because there are more important things in life than obsessing over his sleep!
As for today, I think we'll do an early lunch and nap, and hopefully an early BT. We'll see if that yields a good night sleep. Thanks so much!!!
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Suzanna, hi! Yes will try an EBT today. And yes, I stay and pat or hold to help calm him. Had to do that this morning also at 5am when he woke... he was upset and crying. I held and rocked to see if he'll fall back asleep. Then laid him down and tried patting. Then once calm, I lay next to the crib, but he never fell back asleep. Maybe it is teeth. Who knows. A couple nights ago, DH also had to stay in the room and pat to calm him. Thanks for all the suggestions!!
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Good luck!!!
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LOL I totally understand how liberating it is to realize your kid is LSN ... I had that too. My DD never did 12 hour nights either and the average is 10-10.5 here too with 11 hours if she had a short nap or no nap at all (that happened 3-4 times now :P) I had to make sure that I adjust my expectation to what her needs are ;)
Normally I would not recommend EBT because I know from my experience too that it does not work well for LSN kids. They don't tack on and will just wake earlier. But I thought that because his naps seem to be broken too it could help :-\ The way to go with DD is to let her nap longer on these days. So maybe do an earlier nap and pray that he takes a long one and just let him sleep as long as he can today to catch up and then do a normal BT
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Thanks, Suzanna. Yesterday's nap was not longer than usual so went for EBT.
EBT sort of worked, but it was not pretty.
Aimed for put down at 6:00. He went ballistic. Screamed, cried, slapped, kicked, etc... for bed time routine. At put down, (6:10ish), he was so upset so I held him and patted. He finally fell asleep an hour later at 7:15. He had 2 crying NWs by midnight with intervention. He woke at 4:40 crying, at 9.25 hrs of sleep. Held and patted him. He fell back asleep almost an hour later at 5:37 and woke at 6:22. So we got to a decent wake up time with a total sleep time of 10.10, which is the usual. No tack on sleep here, but at least we got a decent amount.
Nap went very well today... 12:45-2:47, a nice catch up nap, I think. Tonight, put down was at 7:30 and bedtime went smoothly. I hope this is a reset!
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Wow! Fx for you Ginger!
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That's great! I'd call that a success :)
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EW at 5:30 or earlier. Another 9.30ish night.
Sigh. Not sure what to do. Maybe I have to ride this out.
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UGH sorry :( So disappointing when it looks like it is going to work but then it all just goes out the window. I'd say just keep up the good work and keep doing what you think works. With DD it takes a good 3-4 nights / days to kick the OT when it's built up like that. And we are here to hold your hand when you feel down :-*
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Oh hugs Ginger. I know how you feel. I agree with Suzanna that also for us it takes time for a change to happen. For us it is OT or discomfort when DS wakes up unhappy and this allows me to understand that he has not slept enough. If he is happy and chatting also in next couple of hours then he has slept enough.
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But you may also consider OT/UT loop. Maybe he does catch up fast just after 1 good nap. when is his normal BT? Is it a it later like 8-ish? Maybe after a good nap he does need that BT kwim?
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Thanks so much Suzanna and Maya. I'm also just really tired. He's been extremely today cranky and everything is a struggle.
Yes, BT is 8, but I put down at 7:30 because it takes him 30 mins to fall asleep. I have tried pd later, around 7:45, but he still took 30 mins.
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(((Hugs))) I can't help thinking that if he was averaging 12h TS 6mo ago, and then when he had his big catch-up nap, that plus his night was 11.5h...perhaps, he needs even less on a day when he's already caught up?? I'd really be inclined to cap that nap and perhaps not even let him use that to catch up on sleep... It just sounds to me that he can't do a long enough night (for him) after the naps he's been doing lately. Sorry I can't remember what they were now, was it 1.5h? Could you try waking him at 1.25h instead? May well be a UT/OT loop - uses the nap to catch up a bit and then isn't tired enough to sleep long enough at night?
Aside from all that - wow just noticed it's only a week or so until the big 2!! ;D
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I was thinking along the line with Trimbler. Although, I think there are cases when the nap shortening will not work. DS went through patches like that and capping the nap just cause OT. You might have to accept that he will not do longer than 9.5-10 hour nights. So maybe try to move his day later to make it to an acceptable WU time kwim?
For us BT is around 8:30 which I know is rather late for BW moms but it works well with our working days. Then she usually sleeps till 6:30-7. Everything before 6:30 is EW for us.
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Thanks, Trimbler. I know, in less than a week my baby boy will be 2! It's so remarkable how fast they grow in the early years.
It's definitely possible his catch up nap was too much. It seemed fine until last night.
Suzanna, we were doing 8/8:30-6/6:30 consistently for a while with 1.5 or so nap. I was starting to cap his naps when he started waking so early.
So the night before was good-ish, then last night wasn't.
Wu 5:35
N 12:24-1:53
Bt 7:54
Wu 5:48 (almost 10 hrs! hooray)
N 12:35-2:25
Bt 8:20 (asleep)
Wu 5:25 or earlier (9 hrs, booooo)
N 12:31 (will cap today at 2:00 latest, or maybe earlier)
Bt will aim for pd at 7:15/20 again
I've tried EBT, later bedtime... so now I want to try capping nap to 1 hr. I haven't yet because of his OT. Should I try it no matter his night? Then what about bedtime, keep it the same or move it later as someone suggested?
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First thing I noticed was 1.5h nap led to 10h night, then 2h nap got you 9h. I'd say definitely cap it at 1.5h at the very longest, and next decent night you get, perhaps try 1h15min? And then, idk, extrapolating those two data points, you'd expect a 10.5h night, so PD accordingly?? (So now I've shown my true physicist colours, with my linear approximation - I'm sure my mathematician DH would be appalled ;D ) but joking aside, I think it's common to find LOs can end up with slightly more sleep overall on a shorter nap, and perhaps he needs that to avoid OT??
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I think you're both right, Trimbler and Suzanna.
Haha! Trimbler, you're so funny! I didn't know you were a physicist! So awesome. I did a stint in a Microbio/Rheumatology lab as a technician so your statement brought back memories. =D I wish I could give you all 210 days worth of data and have you and your husband figure out M's sleep for me. Wouldn't that be something... a scientific algorithm that provides customized toddler sleep schedules and instructions. Lol.
Again, I think you're right, Trimbler and so I tried. I tried waking him up early from nap two days in a row and he just cried, woke, then laid there for a few mins (I gave him a few mins) and then he went right back to sleep. He was so tired in the mornings and it was a struggle to get him to 12:30 nap time. (I feel like any earlier nap would move his WU even earlier, but I could be totally wrong). So I didn't have the heart to keep capping until I felt he was caught up... which perpetuated the shorter nights, and the OT cycle probably.
I had no choice when DH took him out this past Sat. and said he did a 1.15min nap in the car. But he didn't get home until 8:15, and M was a wreck. (He's usually in bed by 7:30). So given the circumstances, he fell asleep at 8:45, and the WU next day was 6:30! BUT, with a couple NWs. So the following 2 days were basically 8:30 BT (Thanks for the suggestion Suzanna), 1-2:30 Nap, 6:15/6:30 WU, until today. Woke at 4:30 and stayed awake until 6:00. Fell asleep and woke at 7:30. Refused nap at 1:00. Brought him out at 2:30. He fell asleep at 6:25. Our first official NND. Someone hold my hand. Haha. Cross fingers! I wonder what tonight will bring. A 6:00 WU would be heaven. Trimbler, I think you're the one that said he might be dropping his nap sooner than most. =(
QUESTIONS: What if he has an EW (say before 5:30ish)? BT? And if he wakes after 6, suggestions for nap time (I know length will be 1 hr)?
Oh, I forgot to mention that I ruled out a few things... hunger (gave him snack before bed), teething, wet diapers. I do think in the mix was a growth spurt, as he has all of a sudden grown out of his pants! He's so much taller! And mental, language development... full on sentences and compound sentences suddenly, jokes, etc...
Well, tomorrow is his birthday! He must have decided he doesn't want to miss anything during the day. Haha. Thanks everyone for your help.
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Happy birthday to M!
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Happy birthday Max!
I wish I could help you. I thought I knew things ... that was a few days ago. Now I feel totally incompetent as we are going through our own struggles (very similar to yours) and I am just totally confused. :P
How did the night go? I hope you got to a good WU time. We had no NND's yet but a couple of times A refused to take a nap at her normal nap time and we ended up with a catnap around 4-5 pm.
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Happy birthday M ;D
Oh yes, how I'd just love an algorithm for sleep ;D Problem is, there are just too many variables I haven't found a way to keep all but one constant so that I can work out the ideal setting for each one - and then most are not even in any way within our control ::) ;D so instead I have to try and see these things as character building :P and focus on our bond, rather than just seeing them as a problem to solve - not saying you do that :-* but I know I got really tied up in that way of thinking with DS, especially with PPD and all that blah blah... But when you're sleep deprived, a magic formula does sound nice, doesn't it? :P
Sorry, just waffled on and don't feel I have much useful to say :-\ other than that nap capping can take a little while to get into a new rhythm, when mine were reluctant to be woken, I've done things like take them immediately out (.well, I had no choice with DD when waking her to do school run :P ) or giving a drink or snack, or watching some toddler videos on YouTube (nursery rhymes etc), which helped them to snap out of feeling groggy and miserable and transition into the rest of the afternoon. But I know some LOs who apparently always hated being woken and just kept a long nap and had late BTs instead - you know M best :-*
Hope he's having/had (I guess he'd still be up now, your side of the 'pond'?) a lovely birthday :)
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Great ideas for the nap capping routine... already on day 3 of nap capping, he was doing better. Thanks! We had a very lovely bday, thank you!
Suzanna, sorry to hear about the struggles! Let me know if you want to bounce ideas, but like you said, it is soo confusing. And like Trimbler said, too many head spinning variables.
We did end up getting WU between 6-6:30 the past few days and BT between 8-8:30, naps 1.15/1.30. Today, however, was another shortish night and longish nap. =/ M was spent. We are also having huge struggles with what seems like SA with daddy. We'll see if the really short nights have passed though... it's been about 2 weeks or so.
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Fingers crossed x
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We also started capping naps to 1.5 - 1 hr. 45 min.
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Another short night. :( So we had a long nap today. Gonna push BT slightly later to get back on track with a decent WU. Not fun. Suzanna, how was your night and day?
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Just watch giving too many of those long naps......may restart another short night spiral :( I know you want him to catch up, but there's a point for LSN ones where it becomes counter-productive yk? ((hugs))
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We are in a mess right now. Friday she did not nap at the daycare again so it was just a catnap in the car. Then Saturday late nap due to family function. Sunday was a normal nap day but we had 3 NW's. I think it was slight OT from the no napping before and maybe some discomfort :-\ Then yesterday she woke due to a poo after 40 min into her nap and would not go back. As a result she fell asleep at 7:30 (the earliest ever) and we had an 11 hour night. So that was great but I need to make sure we hit some kind of a balance between nap and night and get back to a stable routine. :P
I agree with Katherine ... Max is a true LSN kid so letting him catch up with naps will cost you night sleep. As hard as it seems you will have to cap naps and keep BT stable and hope the WU moves back to an acceptable time. It's so hard, isn't it ... always balancing on the edge, trying to get to a routine that works for everybody but avoid OT ::)
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*update- long NW at 4-5:30 last night. fell asleep for 30 min and woke screaming. 8ish hr night! =O
Screamed and shrieked, maybe gas? Did 2nd year molars cause this for anyone? I medicated at BT and at the NW.
Nap was fine, long again because he was wrecked. I know... I'm not doing anyone any favors by not capping this nap. But he was still tired and laying there after I woke him at 2 hrs. =O
Katherine and Suz, I needed to hear that!
Last night was short, but no NWs at all. So, onward for nap capping. I'm posting our EAS to remind me what happens if I don't!
4/29
6:01 wu
12:50-2:20 nap 1.30
8:05 asleep
4/30
6:20 wu (best night)
1:24-2:39 nap 1.15
8:25 asleep
5/01
6:27 wu
1:02-2:45 nap 1.43
8:25 asleep
5/02
5:39 wu
12:35-2:32 nap 1.57
8:25 asleep
5/03
5:45 wu
12:42- 2:25 (broken today, total 1.30) woke him to itsy bitsy spider song. lol
aim for 8:00 asleep
As a mom who've tried to extend naps for over a year, it's kind of traumatizing to shorten them! Hahaha, but I'm resetting my brain on all that. RESET!
Suzanna, ugh, sorry! Yes, the 11 hr night is great, but I know it's hard to sustain... our kiddos aren't quite ready to drop and too many short naps cause OT. HUGS and holding your hand!
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Sounds like you've found a key, Ginger :) Know what you mean about nap capping! Neither of mine were really LSN (DD more HSN) but both, it seems, dropped their overall sleep requirements considerably somewhere between the ages of 18-24mo. I remember it took me so long to come to terms with that for DS, and perhaps I'm just struggling to do the same wth DD now :P But honestly, she was doing 15h TS in January, I'd suspected she'd drop to 14h soon, since she needed a bit more dropping down to one nap - but really, it's been far less than that recently and hard to tell how much is UT/OT, teething or disruption caused by travelling etc. May have to cap that nap below 2h now to improve her nights...taking too long to settle now, so they're getting short but then she's really tired the next morning - sound familiar? ;)
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So so familiar. But 15 hrs and 14 hrs is so foreign to me. Haha. That was what M did as an infant! If that. But guess what? Yesterday was almost perfect!
So Bt was 8:15,
6:30 WU (insert happy dance)
1:15-2:45 Nap (woke for a few mins at hr mark)
8:30 BT (expecting, he's still kicking)
Fingers crossed for another good night.
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:D