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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: Tabathagucci on April 26, 2016, 18:03:16 pm

Title: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 26, 2016, 18:03:16 pm
Hi there!  DD will be 11 weeks Thursday and is a reflux baby and seems to be on the touchy side.  She seems to get easily overstimulated, cries when pooped off the breast or put down, eyes get super wide going from light to dark rooms (doesn't seem to mind light tho), and hates being swaddled but doesn't sleep well if she's not. I've had a terrible time figuring out her A times.  I'm lucky if I get more than one nap a week where she goes down within 10 minutes and stays asleep longer than 25 mins.   Usually it takes me 15 to 30 minutes or more to get her down only to have her sleep 25 minutes. Sometimes I can soothe her back to sleep after the 25 minute mark most times I can't.  It seems for her that 25 minutes is overtired, overstimulated and even undertired.  Sometimes it could be reflux!?!?  Anyway, I have a 4.5 year old  which makes it impossible to have a calm and quiet environment.  Any tips on how to navigate this? I try so hard to get a longer than 25 minute nap but it never seems to work out and I end up putting her down several times daily  and spending so much time to get her to sleep and then keep her to sleep if she wakes up, which is exhausting.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 26, 2016, 18:12:57 pm
 Forgot to add that I'd like suggestions for a  Wind down  routine. at this point we count our way up the stairs one time for each stair, change her diaper,  sing a song and walk quietly around the room, swaddle and put down. I put her down in a carrier on me almost all the time at this point because I have the older child. But sometimes I put her down in a lounger for  infants  and pat her to sleep.   When I swaddle her she gets so upset and worked up that I feel like it overstimulates her and then I have a really hard time getting her down. In addition if I don't have her window just right which most the time I don't she gets frustrated as well at least that's what it seems like. So really just need some overall suggestions as to where to go with this and how to figure out what's right for her. Hopefully someone on here is dealt with this type a baby before and can explain things to me.    Thanks In advance!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on April 26, 2016, 19:42:25 pm
Hiii!!

Sending positive vibes your way and much love! Tough work, right? ;) ...I want to chime in (and follow for any possible suggestions from any of the other moms out here :) ) and let you know, your not alone in this struggle! We seem to be going through exact similar issues... Down to the 4.5 yo ;) ..only my LO is 10 weeks old ;)

I've seen already a few posts (mine included) where at this age, swaddled and wind down/naps are getting difficult. My posts sound similar to yours IRT the swaddle! Hates it out of no where but he needs it too!...super short naps/resettling and wind down taking yeaaaars.... Super OT! He used to go down so easy too !! I think around this time they discover their limbs and are becoming more active. So we might be in this for sometime... I know I am until I wean the swaddle... He suddenly started crying too as I wrapped him and just grunting and resisting it or being held in general..... it seems now too ::) there is a link to A times that maybe a moderator can link for you but at this age I think it's 1 hr - 1hr 15/20 mins.

Hang in there!!! I know I'm trying myself ::) xoxo!! 
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 26, 2016, 21:16:27 pm
Hi!  Thanks for your post and good to know its not just me!  Having a bed time accepting my entire day consists of mostly putting her to sleep, which is difficult at best.  I'm very familiar with the A times link and have been studying it praying for the days when I only have to do this every two hours not every hour!  LOL
I think her morning A time is 1h10m and then goes to 1h15-20 after that but still trying to figure it out.  With it overstimulation and reflux in the mix plus her getting angry with the swaddle it's so hard to tell!  I guess all I can do is keep trying.  Some days I just want to say screw it and cart her about out of the house but she doesn't sleep well on the go at all and any more than two hours out of the house without at least a car nap turns her into a hysterical baby. I don't want to wish these days away because I know I'll miss then but man are they hard!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 26, 2016, 21:17:58 pm
And good point about just discovering the hands!  She loves sucking on her fists and have considered leaving them out but after a few minutes of trying to get her to settle with them out I end up swaddling them in anyway!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on April 27, 2016, 00:19:43 am
You sound just like meee hehe ;)

My A times are all over the place with his wind down taking so long!!! Or him resisting!!! ::)
You know, I feel the same about napping so often! I never thought I would say "I hate naps!" Haha! But life will be easier when I only need to worry about 2 naps a day ;) haha!

If he doesn't resettle in 20 mins, I just take him out and pray for good distraction and keep him as comfortable as possible until we go back again. You know, getting out of the house is what I do on bad nap days!!! I'm sorry yours doesn't do well out... Hugs! Not even the stroller? Like a walk around the park or mall? It's what I do! I would go nuts focusing on these crazy naps! Especially when they don't even go long at all!

Hang in there ;) with me! ;D
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on April 27, 2016, 10:15:52 am
I presume you've been doing all the things you can wrt reflux - raising the head of the bed, keeping upright after a feed, feeding small amounts often if that's what keeps LO comfortable... have you looked into meds at all? Really, sleep is probably going to be a bit tricky if LO is suffering burning reflux every time they're laid down flat for a sleep, yk? That waking at 25min is quite possibly pain. Could be OT or OS as well but unusual to not get ANY decent naps in a full day at this age unless there's some pain there.

Have you tried white noise to even out the noise from your 4.5yo?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 27, 2016, 14:53:53 pm
Hi!  Doing everything you mentioned!  She never lies flat. 😊  We tried Zantac with no success and the reflux doesn't seem to cause pain as she doesn't cry or fuss unless she needs burp. The reflux does tend to wake her at times tho.  Ped did not want to try other meds at this point based on what she saw.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on April 27, 2016, 20:11:24 pm
That's good :) I thought you would be... not much I can offer, your A time looks fine, you could try a touch more as she's pretty close to 3 months but if she's only sleeping 25min, its not likely to be UT. Is she ever sleeping longer naps?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 28, 2016, 02:51:34 am
She does, or did, occasionally until today.  Not sure if her sleep pattern has changed all of a sudden but the last two days most of her nails have been 30-40 minutes.  And today my sitter got her to sleep 40 minutes in her crib then got her back to sleep and she slept another 2 hours!  That never happens!  So the A times are hard to figure because she yawns sometimes anywhere from 30-45 mintutes after she wakes, even after a good long nap.  Then if I try to put her down she seems angry.  She's also all of a sudden not fighting the swaddle.  I'm still putting her down around 1h5m and she falls asleep around 1h15m but sometimes she fights it hard and she falls asleep between 1h20m and 1h30m.  Sometimes this results in a longer nap and sometimes the 25 minutes...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on April 28, 2016, 03:17:11 am
Hi I'm back to chime in!!

My lo first nap (when his WU is normal and I caught it. Sometimes he EWs and won't resettle or wakes and I don't know as he wont call me and is just there haha. I usually suspect ar least had been up for 10-15. He's in our room too! He just wakes quietly some days!) is at 1.5 A time! It seems to get me at least an hour lately. Again, assuming our WU time is more balanced. So as it was mentioned, some pushing can help? Mine is 10 weeks old; a week younger. Maybe you can try 1hr 15? If it was a good WU and rested. I notice if he does anything less than a 1.5 nap, the next A time works at 1 hr. Then if that was at least 1 hr, he's pretty happy and the next can extend again a bit but only to 1 hr 15.

I go by how he's feeling. Depends his nights too... Some mornings after rubbish EWs or unknown exact WU time he's already OT come normal hours and then the whole day is OFF.

I have to agree that if it's all bad short naps of 20 mins, something might be causing discomfort. I say this bc the past week I've posted about the same issues (fighting swaddle, resisting naps, Unknown A times etc..as I told you above) and come to realize Monday, he has a tummy bug. He's been pooing' round the clock. It concerned me as it can dehydrate them and all that... Today, he went back to decent naps (not prefect! Hehe)

I had my MIL with me and I was able to focus 100 on him and get him rested as he's been Sooo OT lately from discomfort! ...and I focused on proper A times and it worked out. As we approach 3 months A times need to gradually get closer to 2 hrs which comes at 4 months.. Yk? I mean from what I've seen on BW and advised from the great moms/moderators here too!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 28, 2016, 21:36:35 pm
Sorry he was feeling icky but glad things are getting easier now!  My husband is taking a couple weeks off of work soon and I have hired a sleep coach to put together a plan that I will start as soon as he's off and can take care of our son.  Hoping that with one focused week, I can get her on track and get to a point where it only takes a few minutes to put her down so I don't leave him watching tv all day... To prepare I've been working on putting her down drowsy but awake and soothing her to sleep and have been able to do it a few times.  Today it seemed she was OT and OS and I had to PU/PD four times but it finally worked and after a total A time of 1h45m she has been asleep for 45 minutes and counting!  Not sure if that means I should push A times?  I feel like when I put her down later it takes forever to get her down because she's either OT or OS!  So confusing!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 28, 2016, 21:37:31 pm
I seriously look at A time chart every day dreaming of when she doesn't sleep so much!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on April 28, 2016, 22:30:09 pm
I think it's inevitable to avoid OT/OS at this age. And there is always something to tweak! I'm glad you will have some help and support! Great to hear! Keep us posted :) !!!

Yes he's been ill it's so sad! :( but he's getting better a little at a time! ;)

Trust- I too look at those A times for the same reason... Mainly for the oldest child. As I said it once and will repeat.. I hate naps! Haha I really am looking forward to 2 naps or even 1 a day. I was all about them the first time around and now I don't care haha! Short naps are also developmental and I think become more solid at around 6+ months, yk? If I remember correctly from my first. The nap transitions themselves are awful too,  as I remember the work in them with my first ::) but just to not have to focus so much on them and so much time haha again, bc I hate leaving my oldest. It's crappy but we will get there before we know it ;)

Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on April 29, 2016, 01:16:40 am
So funny, so different second time around.  I used to love naps too now can't stand them.  When it's one or two a day will be nice!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 01, 2016, 00:01:07 am
Ok so it seems her A time needs to be increased to around 2h20 or 25 minutes.  When I put her down at 1h5m she falls asleep at 1h15m fairly easily but sleeps 35 minutes.  When my husband takes her out for a walk in the carrier before nap time she falls asleep around 1h20-25m and sleeps an hour or more.  However, when I try to put her down a few minutes later at home she seems to get OT or OS and then takes forever to settle and sleeps 20-25 minutes.  I think taking her for a walk keeps her distracted yet calm so the longer A time is ok.  How do I manage to do this at home?  Meaning stretch her A time without getting her upset?  I have my other child who can be occupied with the TV while I put her down in another room but I can't take her out for a walk and leave him....
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on May 01, 2016, 00:57:57 am
She may just do better with a walk as part of her WD - DS liked to have a walk around outside in the garden or looking at the pictures in the house, I just talked about the leaves or the weather or the picture we were looking at. 1hr 20-25 would make sense as she gets closer to 13 weeks.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 13, 2016, 15:00:47 pm
Ok all of a sudden lo seems to be getting overstimulated way easier.  I put her in her bouncy chair in our kitchen/family room area and make it a point to not move too quickly/talk too loud or fast as I'm working in the kitchen but she somehow ends up wide eyed and jerky movements within a few minutes.  Is it possible this is due to leap 3? We're on the tail end.  She's been fighting me for naps hard (seemingly because she's OS), but doing better with the nanny twice a week. The nanny can put her full focus on LO and I can't tho because I have household duties and the 4 year old.  Anyway, not sure if I should add this to this thread or start a new one in general sleep issues?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 13, 2016, 17:29:22 pm
Hii again!

It could be OS or OT/UT. If you suspect OS, it's best to keep things low and calm before a nap... Sometimes walkng around the house or outside for about 10 mins before her nap/wind down may help. Or, you can take her to her room and dim the lights, play quiet games on the floor or read a book before wind down.

Fighting naps can also mean OT or UT as well though ::) tricky isn't it!! I know it's hard with other babies around too! Hugs! ....how are the A times? How old is baby now? Just to take a look at the whole picture ;)

Xo
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 13, 2016, 19:28:15 pm
I always try to stay as calm as possible but even sitting in her bouncy chair 10 feet from where I'm making breakfast (fairly calm and quiet while my ods is still asleep) she gets fired up.  Maybe she's bored and gets annoyed?
Also when putting her down she gets annoyed being swaddled and rocked then when I put her down in the crib she smiles at me and laughs...then takes forever to settle. Can't figure this kid out...
Maybe putting her down too early?  I had to stay in ods class today with her for a bit and got her home late for her nap.  She went down pretty easy! 
She only ever sleeps 25-40 mins.  Occasionally I or the nanny get her back to sleep and she'll sleep 40-60 mins more or longer.  A time is at 1h20m.  I try to head up 20 mins before that and swaddle her 10-15 mins before.  I used to rock her or walk around to calm her down and get her drowsy but that now seems to annoy her so I put her down and out my hand on her chest and reinsert paci as needed...
Maybe I'm missing something???
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 13, 2016, 19:44:51 pm
Ps she turned 3 months on 5/11
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 14, 2016, 19:07:18 pm
Hello!

Sometimes those activity centers gets them OS! It's not a bad thing though. They are pretty much learning everything at this age, yk? They are realizing they have hands and feet and how fascinating the world around them is! I think it's pretty hard to avoid OS in general at this stage! ;) .... have you done the personality baby quiz to see your babies temperament? Helps a bit :) some babies OS easily- spirited babies need to constantly be moved around as they get bored or touchy babies get OS often and it bothers them and need more low key activities, kwim?

At this age, mine is also 12 weeks-- they are figuring out their arms and legs! Mine has recently fought being held too so I had to change it up and soothe from the crib now. Which is better in general I feel as its setting the stage for self soothing and later you can reduce the amount of help to doze off to sleep :) ....they become super mobile right now (later will be the same when she starts rolling over in the crib, sitting and can't lay down, standing and can't sit down haha so fun huh?) and sleep routines need some adjusting. I find they go down easier when OT too then UT. Just a rule of thumb 20-25 nap is OS, 30 OT, 40/45 UT... I've also seen around the forums how 50/60 minutes can mean OT. Haha lots of info ;) ...

A time is good at 1:20/1:30 ...try monitoring A times and see how she's doing. Consider some quiet/calm A time if you find she is easily OS.

Your doing great! :)
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 21, 2016, 21:49:13 pm
Sorry it took so long but I did the quiz and got mostly textbook (eight answers) and then angel (6) with touchy being a close third (5), mostly related to sleep.  I've found that holding her to calm doesn't work anymore either so I put her in the crib and shush and she settles fairly easily, even when OT.  My biggest issue now is the paci so I'm going to start the gradual removal tonight and see how it goes. She needs it to fall asleep and often wakes when it drops.  Sometimes she can keep it In for the whole nap (25 mins).  She still in only sleeps 25-40 minutes but thinking its developmental and I need to just go with it for now.  25 seems to be OT/OS and 35 maybe undertired and 40 right on time... Although one time she went 2 hours between naps and slept 40 mins so who knows...
So now I want to know, how hard to i try to get her to transition through sleep cycles? I feel like if I keep her in the room/crib trying we're wasting our day away... I'm finding it hard to balance getting her some stimulation, getting my son out of the house and also getting her some decent sleep.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 21, 2016, 21:49:43 pm
Oh and thanks for the support! 😊
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 21, 2016, 23:50:27 pm
Gradual paci removal? Intrigued hehe based on my paci post ;)

If answers related to sleep were touchy then that's probably the case. Touchy babies prefer less; less is more with sleep. That can explain not wanting to be held but could be age. Around 3 months they discover their limbs! So sleep changes a bit as far as wind downs etc! Mine is the same... Suddenly hated the swaddle and being held. Still needs his swaddle so we are holding onto it but I've also began to settle from the crib for a few weeks now!

20-25 min naps can mean OS, 30-35 OT, 45-50 or around there UT. At this age short naps are so developmental. Think of it like this: 0-3 months they work on their night sleep (Extending  night hours)... 3-6 they work on their day sleep (extending naps) ...after that it's mainly a matter of other things such as teething, nap transitions, developmental milestones... Etc! Be guaranteed the first year is a lot of up and down but one day your going to find your self capping naps and wonder how you arrived to that! ;)

As far as helping with sleep cycles, you can attempt W2S, or resettling as often as you can. Honestly, the way I do it, is try my best to have the first two naps of the day at home since they are the most restorative. I do what I can (IF I can) to resettle and extend naps. For now that's all I can do! I do not spend more than 15-20 mins trying to resettle or nap. If I do, I just step out bc as you say, it's wasting the day away and it surely is. Especially with a toddler around. I'm the same. I can't keep him alone that long and so often... They get restless too and need to be out and about! I've realized with multiple kids it's another ball game. I had all the time in the world the first time to do this- now I just have to go with the flow and with such little A time too, and such new stuff to them, it's hard to prevent OT/OS yk?

if you decide to work on some ST, you have to commit and stay consistent ;)

Hugs and good luck! Keep us posted ;)

Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: ireneasheard on May 22, 2016, 09:22:41 am
I have a touchy 7 week old - coming up fast to the times you are talking about. I too am very much looking forward to less sleeps and naps even though it means that babyhood would be over. I also have a 4 year old, am lucky my 4 year old is quite patient. He has waited for me while I pat my 2nd to sleep which is really so helpful. A friend suggested a special box or something for when baby is being settled which I am looking into making one up.

But your queries - I would have thought at 12 weeks that awake time would be slightly more but each baby is different. My son is 7 weeks and already awake for 1 hr - 1 hr 15 minutes. The line between over and under tired is so hard 😢 i have not found that putting my son to bed right at the first tired sign has worked well as he resists sleeps. I might start heading up to his room and might pop him in his cot to look around as part of his wind down while move around the room doing a few things that means he is awake a touch longer. It also gives him an opportunity to absorb that we are heading toward sleep time again instead of being put in wrapped immediately which he might not be quite ready for so the adjustment time for him helps (not too long). I'll then wrap him and sit in the nursing chair with him and sing a song quietly before . putting him to bed. This part is getting shorter than even just a few weeks ago as he rubs his face on me when he is ready to be put into his cot. Seems to work for us atm but I guess I'm illustrating our wind down is changing a little as he gets older as he needed me to hold him more to drowsiness when he was smaller.

I also find my son does not respond well to shushing but only to firm patting. Initially shush was fine but it seems to irritate him now so firm patting on resettle works best with him. I'm also about to introduce some white noise as he startles easily when there arr sudden noises.

Anyway. I'm following this post with interest as we are heading into this soon ourselves!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 22, 2016, 12:57:09 pm
Here is the gradual removal plan!  Went ok last night although we had some reflux issues that don't usually happen.
PANTLEY'S GENTLE REMOVAL PLAN

So A times are between 1h20 and 1h30 it seems but I have to take her in and out her down early it seems or she gets too OS before nap.  I'm still figuring this out tho because I was trying sleep training with a sleep coach the last 3 days and it was a little too much too fast for me (too much crying for my liking) so I'm putting that on hold for now.
Id like to try to get 2 good naps at the beginning of the day but my son has school 9-12:30 m/w/f so it makes it tough.  I'm lucky if I can extend the nap during school time and if not, I'm lucky if I get another short one in before I have to pick my son up.  I definitely think 25-30 is OS/ot but 40 I think is where she just has an issue transitioning.  She just can't do it during the day.  I try to extend but it maybe happens 1 out of 10 times.  I guess I will keep trying, like you said for 10-15 mins. I was able to get her back to sleep more often during sleep training but I'd be in there trying for an hour which is just too long IMO. 

Irene, sounds like you've got a good start at 7 weeks!  Keep us posted!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 22, 2016, 23:43:42 pm
Ok so I can't figure this out maybe someone can help me?  I was working with a sleep coach for three days (which I put on hold for now because I'm not sure I like her methods).  She had me putting her down at 45-60 minutes after getting her up.  The thing is, sometimes she had been awake for 90-120 minutes because I had been trying to get her back to sleep with no success (we were on a specific schedule with feeding and nap times set at a certain time give or take 15 minutes).  She would go down sooo easy.  Even being ot.  Since stopping that, I've been putting her down between 1h and 1h15m after waking and she's totally OS.  So maybe she needs waaaay less stimulation?  The thing is we don't do much during her A times just walk around the house, nurse, do some tummy time and watch my son play and we don't do all of that each A time.  There's jot much time with feedings and diaper changes...  So how can she be THAT OS?  I'm so confused...  I can take her to drop my son off at school (major stimulation because we go in the classroom) and bring her home and she'll go down easy even OT, but keep her home and she's all jerky and takes forever to put down...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on May 23, 2016, 05:23:18 am
Do you think its transition from one activity to another that's more the issue wrt OS? I know L coped much better if there was some link from activity to activity, so bringing a toy from play to bed helped. Was there a difference in pre-nap routine with the sleep coach? Was she feeding closer to nap time?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 23, 2016, 12:07:09 pm
Hi!  Thank you...It may be the transition I can try a movie (she's not really into toys yet) but she seriously seems to get overstimulated even sitting in the same place kind of far from the activity.  With the sleep coaching she was feeding sometimes closer to nap, sometimes further away because her naps are so short and feeding was always at the same time.  And the same occurs with us not being on the same schedule.  The only real difference that I can tell is that she was in her room almost all the time except for feedings and some VERY brief activity time because I spent the better part of the day in her room trying to soothe her back to sleep.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 23, 2016, 16:14:15 pm
I've been trying to put her down early to mellow out in her crib when she's all jerky but maybe that's backfiring on me? I posted in the support for touchy babies thread but not sure anyone's active over there.  I'm really struggling with her.  Every time I seem to get a routine in place that works, it works for maybe 2 days and then it doesn't work all of a sudden.  And I cAnt figure out where I'm going wrong.  I forgot to try the lovie during the transition today.  I think transitions are ok for her early on in her A time but once she hits maybe 45 minutes, things like trying to put her back down in a seat get her all freaked out.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 23, 2016, 16:24:40 pm
This was our morning...she woke at 7:45, changed, nursed, hung out in bouncy chair while I ate and played calmly with ODS on the floor next to her.  At 45 minutes I picked her up and walked around with her calmly while doing simple things like taking my vitamins and drinking some tea, all moving calmly and slowly.  My husband was getting my son into the car around the 1 hour mark so things got a little hectic but no screaming or anything.  I tried to put her down to get my sons vitamins and she started crying so I picked her back up and got them while holding her.  Then I took her straight upstairs and walked around for a minute calmly, changed her slowly and calmly and put her in her crib with her lovie and white noise on.  I went to the bathroom, came back in, swaddled her (she always fights me on swaddling but wasn't too bad today) and gave her the paci, closed blinds, picked her up to burp her and brief cuddle, put back in crib with paci and sat shushing her at 1h15m mark. She kept laughing and smiling at me and wasn't as jerky but still excited.  Since she wasn't calling down with me there I patted her and left, returned once to replug the paci.  She calmed down but is still trying to sleep and 1h37m.  Wait. She just spit the paci out and is asleep!  We'll see if she wakes.  But regardless, does that wind down sound ok? Anything I should tweak?  She's 14.5 weeks.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 23, 2016, 18:11:25 pm
She slept 34 minutes and was woken up by the trash truck.  Imagine I would have gotten 40, that's her longest nap!  Used the same exact routine for this time but 5 mins earlier because of short nap and she seems a little more excited.  Maybe I should have done it earlier because of short nap?  But all her naps are short...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 23, 2016, 19:19:18 pm
Laughed and talked for a long time, went in and held my hand on her chest and kept reinserting paci, she calmed a couple times only to start wiggling and talking again, finally spit paci out and kept eyes closed at 1h45m.  Fidgeted a couple tunes and I could hear reflux, but stayed asleep. Slept 35 mins...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 26, 2016, 04:02:28 am
Wondering if anyone can read this and comment?  Sometimes I can lay her down and give her the paci and she'll spit it out after a while and fall asleep.  Other times I have to spend 45 minutes reinserting it because she falls asleep, spits it out and wake up again within a m few seconds or a minute.  I think this happened about 12 times tonight.  It took her over an hour to fall asleep this way and I had to sit there replugging the paci the whole time...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on May 26, 2016, 09:02:16 am
Sounds horrid :( Is her reflux bothering her? Waking that frequently sounds like reflux flare to me - maybe a med dosage adjustment is in order if it hasn't happened in the last few weeks - has to be increased with every few hundred grams of weight gain...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 26, 2016, 10:38:35 am
Her reflux is not painful so not medicated.  My husband finally gave her her dream feed even tho she wasn't asleep and then she fell asleep so I think she was hungry!  I have a low supply at the end of the day and she is a lazy sucker so kind of gets mad and gives up once it's not flowing fast. I hand express into her mouth but that only gets me so much.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 26, 2016, 10:39:40 am
Also wondering if you can read above and see if I need to tweak anything?  This kid is seriously a mystery and what works one time won't work the next. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on May 26, 2016, 18:52:58 pm
Hi there Tabathagucci
I have some thoughts which you may take or leave.

I noticed a few things through your thread, a lot of mention of OS, OT, resisting swaddle, resisting nap, laughing or smiling at you at nap PD.  And on the opposite side I read she has gone down easily after a busy school visit, has had one or two exceptionally long naps after being totally OT/OS, is being active and making noise when there are activities at a distance from her, going down easily during the period you had a nanny or sleep trainer in when she was awake 90-120 mins at a time.
As an outsider looking in all of this sounds to me like too little stimulation (US) and too short an A time (UT). I realise I am the lone voice in suggesting this, about 5 years back a lone voice suggested similar to me - and was right.

It seems to me this LO is ready for more stimulation, she would like to be held, spoken to, played with and right in there with the action, being shown things and told about things, handed things to hold and explore (not necessarily toys, many household objects are safe enough to offer, a wooden spoon for instance or a plastic tub).  Rather than signs of OS when she is watching from a distance it may instead be frustration that she is not right in there in the action and being interacted with fully and completely.  Frustration may also be due to activity not being changed when she would like it to be, so rather than too much activity it is that she is ready to move on to something else, and not necessarily low key just something else.

WRT A times, I imagine she is going to sleep somewhat better with increased stimulation but I would also increase the A time and keep it set for a few days to see how it rolls out.  1hr 45 minimum regardless of nap length, so yes even after a short nap.  and possibly looking more towards 2hrs.  In my opinion the naps currently are awful, entirely too short and no good for anyone, and this has been the same situation for some times now so perhaps it is safe to say two things:
- the shorter A and lower stimulation had a chance and didn't seem to help
- how much worse can it really get?  Have a think about what could happen if you try longer A and more stimulation, at worst totally rubbish naps, well that is what she is having already.
and finally on A times, it is actually also okay to go over the guidance times if that is what your LO needs. Mine needed longer than guidance as do many others, those times are only guidance not set rules.

I would keep E times steady rather than automatically feeding on WU, if that means feed times are sometimes closer to nap time that's okay.

I would also watch out for and listen for any reflux signs.  I have also experienced a doc (or several) telling me my DS did not need meds because he was not in pain and was a "happy spitter" believe me there was nothing happy about it, but he politely smiled at strangers so they didn't see the screaming fits.  If you see any signs of reflux or silent reflux, smelly breath or hiccups etc I would return to the doc and be clear you want meds/different meds/increased meds/a referral to a specialist, whatever it takes to get LO the attention needed.

Some things to think about there.
Wishing you rest and good sleep vibes whatever you decide.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Martini~ on May 26, 2016, 19:11:23 pm
Will just say that my DS who in the end was quite an average sleeper (2y4mo now and doing 11-11.5h night and nap of 1.5h), was at 2h of A time at 12weeks. Without it he was doing UT naps (we changed from 4 to 3 naps at that age and from 3h easy to 3.5h). I also almost never shorten A time at that age after a shorter nap. I was too afraid of UT naps which were unresettlable, when if I had and OT nap, I could easily help him transition.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 26, 2016, 21:37:03 pm
Hi I haven't had a chance to catch up but I must agree with the above!

My LO is 14 weeks and now starting longer naps since increased A time and he's been a 45 min napper for awhile now. As I approach 4 mths here myself he's barely starting to increase his naps. Not all but at least one or two. We are Also closer to 2hrs/1:45 A time. I also agree with OT naps being easier to help transition into the next cycle rather than UT naps.

As far as the stimulation, that could very well be spot on too with how Creations put it. My LO seems to get frustrated just laying in his little rock n play... And I think to myself, why? As soon as I get in his face or pick him up he's all smiles and I guess it's what he wants! (Usually when I'm cooking and he's there with me- I think he gets bored!) ..I also want to add that after too long of a drive in the car, he gets upset and I think he just wants stimulation! Talking to him won't do the trick until he looks at me he's ok ::) it's interesting but makes for frustrating drives with a crying baby all the time haha ;) (sorry off topic) My LO seems to also like to be switched from places often. And starts cooing when wanting attention! He might be a handful when he's older it seems ;) haha! Loves all eyes on him and constant stimulation. My first was quite the opposite and super calm... Super suuuuper touchy with too much stimulation... Cried at every loud restaurant, birthday party etc. He liked all things peace and quiet... ;) unlike this one who seems to thrive off extra stimulation! Hates being PD at times just wanting to be held or in the action ;)

Give those suggestions a go for a few days and keep us posted!

Best of luck!!! :D

Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 26, 2016, 23:11:24 pm
Wow definitely a lot to think about here!  I will definitely try longer A times (easier for me!!!) and see how it goes.  She seems to need. A super short A time after a series of short naps because once a day my husband wears her and rakes a walk and she falls asleep around the 1 hour mark and either stays asleep for an hour or more or wakes and will go back to sleep writhing 10-20 minutes.  But that's only when walking.  She won't extend in the crib usually.  So it's all worth a shot!
And honestly it makes me happy to hear she's understimulated, I was so worried I had this fragile baby, but whenever I take her places she does awesome!  Never cries unless bored or hungry or hot.  We went to Disneyland today, she hardly slept at all and did awesome!  Sooo...maybe you're all onto something. 
As for the reflux, she never screams.  I think she has been in more discomfort the past couple days from it though because she whines a little here and there and I let her sleep on me this morning after her 4 am feed and it seemed worse than it has in weeks.  I am on a really strict elimination diet (which is why I think her reflux has not been painful) but I've slipped a little the past couple days so maybe that's why.... Will keep an eye on it tho!
Anyway, thank you everyone!!!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 27, 2016, 01:53:11 am
You see? Mine too does great out and about w/ that extra stimulation. I had that fragile baby the first time as I mentioned above ;)

Worth a shot!! Positive vibes!!!!

Xo :)
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 27, 2016, 17:43:35 pm
Well, being scared to over do it, I started putting her down (swaddled in crib awake) at 1h20-25m mark and she has gone down easy (fell asleep at 1h40m for first nap and 1h30m for second) both times, even putting herself to sleep with the paci for first nap.  Naps are still short, 35 mins for first one so maybe tomorrow I put her down for first nap at 1h30m?  I feel like she still needs shorter A time as the day goes on because she gets increasingly OT but I could be wrong.  I've also increased her stimulation and when she gets bored as it gets closer to nap time I wear her in the Bjorn as I finish up stuff around the house before putting her down.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on May 28, 2016, 08:02:18 am
If you try out the 1hr 45 - 2hr first A time there is a chance of a long nap and that would go far to reduce any OT build up through the day.
IMO fear of OT is what often ends up keeping some LOs OT, they need the chance to get really tired so they can sleep well.
I'd like to send you some courage to try :)
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 28, 2016, 08:54:16 am
Ok thank you!  Will try to put her down at 1h35-40 tomorrow!  Like everyone said. What's the worst that can happen!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 28, 2016, 15:53:06 pm
Put her down at 1h35m and she was OT, needing paci held in while settling.  Maybe I needed to wind her down for longer but had to go back down stairs to help my son with something of course!  Should I still stick with this time for s few days?  Maybe add 5 mins to the wind down?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on May 28, 2016, 17:38:34 pm
Well, I wouldn't. I'd try a longer A and shorter wind down, but that's me. It's only that it seems to me you've tried long wind down and short A times, low key activity and so on and they have all resulted in short naps and fussing.  That's why I'd go the other way.  But like I say, that's me, looking at the information here and also knowing what my DS was like. I tried short A times and long wind down too, he did not appreciate it at all.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Martini~ on May 28, 2016, 20:40:13 pm
What kind of a nap she did after 1:35?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on May 28, 2016, 22:17:32 pm
With these ones who crave stimulation, a long WD is too much, they really don't need that much of one.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: ireneasheard on May 28, 2016, 23:48:44 pm
I agree re wind down for a touchy baby. My touchy baby definitely doesn't need a long wind down, think someone here summed it up by saying "less is more". I definitely don't wind down for longer than 5 minutes and babe doesn't need me to hold him to drowsiness as he needed me to when he was a newborn. He also does better with more activity time and not being put into bed at first yawn because he is tired enough to nap but not sleep  (my son anyway, just my experience ) every time I put him down on first yawn he catnaps so it's a fine line finding him tired but not overtired.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on May 29, 2016, 02:11:01 am
I agree with less is more!

Our wind down is simply swaddle, white noise, paci-- crib. Haha! Then settle from there! I literally do nothing of a wind down, really. I prefer dropping to low key activity time before his wind down as a way to keep the A time long.

Today I ended up doing a 1.5 A time (14 weeks old) ....and of course 45 min nap ;) ...hes been long napping lately at 2 hrs but I PD earlier as he's been a little sick... So I wanted him to ovoid OT. Got a short nap. Keep trying those long A times :)
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 29, 2016, 04:08:05 am
Thanks!  She did a 30 min nap after a 1h35m A time.  Then a 45 minute nap after a 1h30m A time.  I get the feeling she needs a lower A time as the day professes because her naps are so short and she gets increasingly OT, but honestly, her behavior seems the same when I put her down OT and UT so really hard to tell.  And she has zero tired cues... She occasionally yawns but never at any consistent time. Sometimes it after I start the wind down, sometimes it's 30 minutes after she wakes and anywhere in between...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 29, 2016, 16:50:38 pm
Ok definitely think she needs a 5-10 minute mellow time before putting her down.  I pushed her too far this morning because I was putting a show on for my older son and the system kept freezing.  She yawned 3 times while I was trying to get the darn show on and when I put her down was all jittery and now keeps waking up when the paci falls out, which she does when either ot or os.  So I have a question, if she falls asleep and then wakes up a few minutes later when the paci falls out but falls asleep right away again once it's back in, do I count all that as sleep?

I'm also having trouble deciding at the end of the day whether to do a 20 minute catnap or just put her to bed early, but with a long A time window. We've ended up doing both over the last two days and both resulted in her waking up after sleeping 30 minutes.  I'll try to post details/examples later.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: ireneasheard on May 30, 2016, 01:03:16 am
I would count it as sleep if straight back to sleep. The problem I see is possibly the paci is becoming a bad prop if babe is waking without it but that's another issue I'm sure admin might be able to assist with.
Re bedtime - mostly we have a nap before bath (8 week old here). Sometimes he fights the nap and if he does I don't get worked up about getting my son to take it. I'll try to resettle but it's obvious quickly if he is going to take it or not. I'll move bedtime earlier if he simply won't take it I don't get too hung up on the nap and don't get hooked on a particular time like a schedule. I do however try to make sure it is around the same time each day. Bedtime is usually 7pm here but if it is a little earlier (our earliest recently has been 6.35pm as nap was not taken) but we managed to get back on track the next day. I just use judgement to work out whether something is working and if I try a few times and it doesn't work I won't do it again or try again in a few weeks. Things change so much in the first few months, I've tweaked our wind down routine as well as my son doesn't need me to be as hands on lately to settle.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on May 30, 2016, 02:47:49 am
Thanks!  She only needs the paci replugged like that when she's OT or OS, which has been a lot the last couple days.  She's definitely dependent because we were told to push the paci early on to help with reflux so we were told to hold it in her mouth if needed.  So I'm just looking to get by till she can put it in herself.  We did this with my son and it worked fine.  Once she's fully out, she doesn't wake up and need it back (at least at night).
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 03, 2016, 11:25:54 am
Ok I have a follow up question but has to do with night wakings/feedings so let me know if I should post on a different board. We were cosleeping her in a lounger called the podster in our bed at night. DH would walk her to sleep in a carrier and she'd sleep on him till she woke for the first feeding, which started at 12 or 1.  He would hold the paci in if she woke and the times began extending later. As they got later we started transferring her from the carrier around 9-10 pm to the podster where she'd sleep with me till she woke for the next feed.  I would sometimes use the paci to get her back to sleep if she woke early.  We eventually got to a point where she was going from about 7 pm to 3/4 am and a couple times till 5/5:30 am before waking.  I attribute some of this to the paci and some (quite a bit) to her just extending her night sleep on her own. 
However, And I think this happened as we transitioned her to the crib (around 3 months and old) and stopped walking her to sleep, she started waking earlier.  We implemented a dream feed at 10/11 to help.  Currently she goes from about 6/7, dream feed 10/11, early morning feed 2:30/4 and then up again around 5/6:30, about 4 hours max after the dream feed.
I have not been too successful at getting her back to sleep with the paci since then because by the time I hear her and get to her she's more awake I think.  Tonight I was able to paci her back to sleep fairly easily by holding a hand on her chest and holding the paci in her mouth for about 3 minutes. She kept the paci in for 15 mins then stayed asleep for 15 more once it fell out.  I repeated the paci and she settled again fairly easily, this time keeping the paci in herself for 25 mins and stayed asleep for 7 mins more once it fell out, so total extension was about 1 hour.  I'd like to extend her night sleep and wondering how best to do this.  Maybe drop the dream feed and try to paci her back to sleep for a few nights in a row if she wakes before 4-5 hours?  Is this worth trying during the 4 month regression or should I wait till its over?  Any other suggestions, ways to do this differently or better?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 04, 2016, 18:33:22 pm
Sorry I don't have paci experience.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on June 04, 2016, 20:09:48 pm
I never had to hold the paci in - L was always pretty vocal, if I gave paci, he would either fall immediately back to sleep or scream at me in which case he got milk. I think its pretty reasonable with her age for her to eat this frequently - I understand you wanting to extend night sleep and you can do it that way if you wish, of course. My suggestion would be that she has done it once and can do it again when she's ready, so pushing may result in it happening a little earlier but its so much extra lost sleep for you that it might not be worth it in the grand scheme of things, especially if you're increasing the paci prop.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 06, 2016, 01:23:49 am
Thanks for your feedback!  We only have to replug or hold the paci in if she's having trouble getting to sleep (OT, UT or OS or job the middle of the night). We were told early on by doctors and nurses to hold the paci in to soothe her because of the reflux and now she's kind of hooked.  I sometimes wonder if I should take away the swaddle because she loves sucking on her fingers but I also don't want her to suck her fingers!  Any thoughts on this?

Anyway, with regards to the night sleep and wakings, the next night she went all the way till 5 am without waking!  Then last night she woke at 2:10, on the early side as the dream feed was at 11, and I was able to get her back to sleep.  She slept again till 5 at which point I fed her and put her back down and she slept till 7:15 so it appears to be semi-working!  I agree on it possibly not being worth it because it deprives me of sleep, but I often don't get much sleep after that 2/3 am feed anyway.  Will keep trying and see how it does and still contemplating dropping dream feed.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 06, 2016, 02:10:23 am
I have another question...paci and soothing related.  When she is OT, I've been giving her more help to get to sleep. This means holding my hand firm on her chest and either holding the paci in or replugging it instantly when it falls out. If I do this, I can get her to sleep fairly quickly.  If I leave her to do it on her own, I still have to replug the paci several times and it takes her forever to fall asleep as she fully wakes every time the paci falls out.  For example, I put her down OT tonight at 6:15. It's 7:08 and she's fallen asleep 4 times now and woken up each time the paci falls out, needing it replugged and then taking more time to settle and fall asleep again.   When I can get her down at the right time, she is ok when the paci falls out. 
Is it better to help her when she needs it or better to leave her be until she fusses so as not to get her even more dependent on the paci?  If I don't help her, she just gets even more OT.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on June 06, 2016, 04:17:08 am
Hi!

I'm using the paci too so I might not be much help- but my situation is diff as I don't have to keep replugging the paci. It is a prop. Bottom line. Some are ok with it, others aren't. Guess it depends on your level of patience with replugging ;) ....

But IRT your question, she will fuss for the paci either way-- you will have to help her. If your still going to do the paci replug at nights, then what's the point, yk? Either you get rid of it all together, and help soothe her through it and then it's a thing of the past (Basically your removing the prop) or you just keep doing what your doing...but she does rely on the paci to soothe herself to sleep. I don't think you can get her "even more" dependent on the paci- she already is dependent on it, kwim? If your going to remove it, remove it for good. She's going to need your help anyway kwim?

All in all, if your going to help her, or want to with the paci- you need to stay consistent. You can try Pantleys removal as we had discussed which takes weeks as it stated. But you need to stick with it every time. Regardless, she's already dependent on the paci. She's going to be OT either way the day you decide to remove it. You kind of just have to make a move and stick with it and later she/you will find a new way to sleep. She's going to have to sleep eventually ;) right? Hehe!

Good luck! I myself plan to remove the paci even though I don't constantly need to replug but just so he learns another method and won't wake to ask for it at night when the day comes ;) rather earlier than later when he's more used to it. It can be a great tool- every parent views it differently! If you don't mind replugging and such- then just ride it out until she's old enough to do it herself hehe ;)

Xoxo

How old is your LO one now, sorry :)

Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: ireneasheard on June 06, 2016, 04:50:30 am
Agreed. I personally have 2 kids who have never taken to paci/dummy so I only made the observation that paci re plugging potentially an issue but as said above it depends what you're prepared to put up with. I personally  (me only and not saying it's what everyone should do) would not be able to put up with re plugging. A friend of mine had an extremely paci dependent babe that loved paci as bottle fed and clearly wanted/needed oral stimulation. When she was old enough she put a basket of pacis in so babe could get one for herself and pop ot in middle of the night... it worked for them. Do what you think is right with paci!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on June 06, 2016, 06:01:58 am
It depends a bit on how old she is and how well controlled the reflux is - if the reflux is well controlled, the paci is not AS necessary, so you could maybe continue your assistance in terms of hand on her but not replug constantly - it really depends upon what you're ok with. I think once she's asleep and you know she was OT, one way to help her not to get more OT is to be ready to resettle a 30min waking.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 06, 2016, 15:12:25 pm
Thank you everyone! She's 4 months this Saturday.  We are about 1.5 weeks into the 4 month regression.  I can put her down awake with the paci and walk out at this point so that's good but if I miss the window then she needs the paci replugged sometimes once sometimes a few times.  I did this with my first and put 5 pacis in the crib for him once he was able to do it himself.  Worked out well for us actually.  So I guess I'll just keep on doing it!  And her reflux is under control but still wakes her up or makes it hard to settle at times, especially when she overeats, which she loves to do.
And the good thing about this being my second baby, I know she will sleep at some point as mentioned!  LOL
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: FPT23 on June 06, 2016, 18:18:49 pm
Haha good luck!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 06, 2016, 22:44:58 pm
Thank you! Ok so now need help with our EASY toward the end of the day. Naps are easier to get her down for with the longer A time but still short, anywhere from 25-40 mins, usually 30-35.  A time seems to be 1h45m, any longer and she gets all jittery and is hard to get down.  My issue is the end of the day and whether to give another nap or not.  Here is our day today.  Very messy as I think we're reaching the peak of sleep regression. 
A 5:40 (tried to get her back to sleep till 7, she fell asleep a few times but woke a couple minutes later each time)
E 7:10
A
S 7:45-8:52 (fell asleep but had to replug paci 4 times the first 30 mins)
E
A
S 10:39-11:11
E
A
S 1-1:20 (nap in carrier during ODS swim lesson)
E
A
S 2:55-3:25

The next nap would be at 5/5:15 depending on how early I can get her to sleep.  Which would make bed time awfully late considering she woke at 5:40 but if I don't do another nap, bed time is before 6 pm, which just seems ridiculous. So what to do???  Thanks in advance and sorry so many questions! Her naps are so messy because they're so short and I have ODS!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 06, 2016, 22:45:55 pm
Oh and feel free to comment on any other part of the easy too! 
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 09, 2016, 21:34:13 pm
So I think maybe the above is too complicated so if someone can help me figure out an EASY for a 25-40 min napper with roughly a 2 hour A time that would be super helpful!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 09, 2016, 21:36:08 pm
I've been nursing her every 2-3 hours, not right when she wakes but a little after to make sure she's not hungry part way through her nap.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 10, 2016, 18:06:19 pm
Hi there, sorry I'm not sure what you're asking, is it about feed times to fit around the short naps?
If so then many LOs are moving (or already moved) to 4hrly E now (I think your LO is about 4.5 months?) although of course it does depend on the LO.  I would just count E times and A/S times separately and record them so you can keep E roughly 3-4hr apart and nap when needed based on the short naps and A times.  if a nap time means the E will come a little later than 3 hrs that's fine, even 3.5hrs it's fine often LO will continue to sleep even if it is the E time as they know they'll be fed on waking.
If though you see a nap and a feed about to bump into one another then feed a little earlier.
With short naps though it's doubtful LO would have to wait long for the E.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 10, 2016, 19:14:23 pm
Hi!  The feeds I've got down its how to fit 3-4 naps in and not have her be super OT by the end of the day.  With 4 naps, day is too long (too much A time) and with 3 it's too short, either too much A time before bed or too early of a bed time.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 10, 2016, 19:39:45 pm
Maybe the answer is it will be messy for a couple weeks till A times lengthen out?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 11, 2016, 08:14:08 am
Ah right.
Yes I seem to remember a phase of 4 or 5 naps per day from 3.5 - 5.5 months (our 4 month regression) which was a bit messy.  I'd be more inclined to put in the extra nap at the end of the day if she'll accept it, and then do a later BT.  It's a bit of a wing-it time though as one or more naps may be longer which shifts the day.

Sorry I don't have the answer for you.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 11, 2016, 13:46:13 pm
Ok!  If she wakes at 6:30-7 is there a time I shouldn't do naps after?  I've been using 5 pm but then if she takes a nap from 3-3:30 that makes 2.5-3 hours before bed time which is a looking stretch. But a nap from 5:30-6 seems late and pushes bed time to 8.  So is the nap from 5:30-6 ok?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 11, 2016, 18:02:07 pm
I see no problem with an 8pm BT so long as she's getting rest/sleep rather than super-silly-long A times.

These short naps shouldn't go on for ever, it's a phase lots go through, if you can't link the naps together by extending, using W2S or APOP and they remain short there isn't much else you can do other than offer more of them in the day.

Is LO going to sleep independently?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 11, 2016, 18:35:49 pm
Thank you!  She is going to sleep in the crib with the paci in. I sit in the chair next to her bed most of the time but have left the room and she does ok as long as the timing is right.  She generally spits out the paci and is asleep. Sometimes she needs it back, which is why I sit in the chair but she can't see me when I do that. 
I haven't been successful much at extending the naps.  I think she might need an even longer A time but she's literally rubbing her eyes and wanting to sleep as I put her down, yet I still get only 30 mins and no extension or if I do get an extension it takes 25 minutes or more to get her back to sleep and she only sleeps 30-40 more minutes.  The few times I've gotten and easy extension it's been with a long A time in the afternoon on a day where she's had really short naps 20-25 min car naps and we've been out of the house. 

I keep thinking I need to push her A time in the morning but she's already so tired it doesn't seem right...
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 11, 2016, 18:38:26 pm
Ps her A time is currently 1h50-55 minutes and she falls asleep almost immediately when I put her down and I don't rock her or anything.  I swaddle her, pick her up to burp her one last time, pat her for a minute or two and put her down.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 11, 2016, 19:10:27 pm
If you've had the better success on the longer A time after short naps and feel in your gut that she needs longer then I'd go for it - I'd try an extra 15 mins even though she looks tired.  The problem with UT naps is LO always looks tired but can't sleep properly.

BTW, just my opinion but if you are in the room I'd bet she knows whether she can see you or not. Babies feel the presence of Mummy there, your breathing and such, it's one of the things which I once read helps to regulate sleep and breathing (and I think is why SIDS guidance is to sleep in the same room you are in) although I wouldn't be able to say that for sure.  Whilst it may help in the first sleep cycle if you are then not there during the transition it could effect her ability to transition alone.  Maybe just something to think about.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 11, 2016, 20:59:27 pm
Ok I put her down 10 minutes later and she was almost asleep
As I put her down.  I left the room right away.  She pretty much fell asleep right away and the paci would start to fall out and she kept sucking it back in every couple minutes for 5 minutes or so.  I pooped back in to take the paci out once she was asleep.
She slept 30 Minutes and eyes popped wide open. Trying to get her back to sleep now but doesn't seem likely.  Does it take a few times at the new A time for them to get used to it?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 11, 2016, 21:53:05 pm
Well it took me over 30 minutes but I finally got her fully back to sleep!  She woke up on and off that whole time... I have been able to get her back to sleep in under 10 minutes but only a couple times before, but like I said it was when we had big days (out of the house all morning). 
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: becj86 on June 11, 2016, 22:04:55 pm
Trying to get her back to sleep now but doesn't seem likely.  Does it take a few times at the new A time for them to get used to it?
Yes, it can. Generally if you sneak in at 30min and hold a hand on her that can help her to extend the nap.

Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on June 27, 2016, 22:42:03 pm
Ok so we're at an A time of about 2 hours at 4.5 months old.  I tried pushing it further and it was just too much.  I'm now getting 35-40 minutes for nap and can often extend when I have time, which is not often. However, I'm getting a wake up 30-40 minutes after bed time every night and it takes anywhere from 5-30 minutes to get her back to sleep.  Would love suggestions as to how to possibly get rid of it?  Here is our typical day:

Eat 6:30
Sleep 8:30-9:10
Eat 9:15
Sleep 11:10-11:50
Eat 12
Sleep 1:50-2:30
Eat 2:35
Sleep 4:30-5
Eat 5
Eat 6:30
Sleep 7pm

She then wakes between 2-4 am to eat and then she usually wakes between 5 and 5:30 and I have to nurse her back to sleep again and she's up for the day at 6:15-6:30.   Would love suggestions on five to 5:30 AM wake up too!

She uses the paci to fall asleep.  I usually put her down awake, swaddled with the paci and she falls asleep on her own within 5 minutes.  I have to help sometimes but usually not.  thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on June 28, 2016, 12:59:37 pm
How long has it been since you tried to increase the A time?  A week or so can make quite a difference at this age as the A times start to increase quite quickly.  Waking after BT like that mean OT from having a series of short naps through the day rather than some longer naps, it's not just about the A time before bed really, it's about how much and the quality of sleep across the whole day too.
Sorry about the early starts, mine always woke at 5/5.30am too, I was stuck with it for a long time.  Looking back I think if I did it all again I'd push BT later to get a better WU as I was exhausted with the constant early starts and feel I might have let DS dictate the day a bit too much.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on July 01, 2016, 09:38:15 am
Sorry been a busy week!  It's been 1 week since pushing. Not sure I'm ready to push yet because sometimes she's already falling asleep as soon as I put her down.  We are just coming out of the four month sleep regression so think she's been needing to catch up.  Also, when I stretched the A time before, it didn't seem to help, in fact naps seemed to get a little shorter (30 mins instead of 40).  But I can try I suppose!  I feel like I should wait till a day (or two) when I'll be able to spend time extending naps, what do you think?
I decided to darken her room a couple days ago and since then she's been sleep till 6/6:30 instead of waking at 5/5:30 and having to nurse back to sleep so that's great!  She's now waking between 1 and 3 to nurse and then going till 6/6:30.  Yay!  We're still getting the wake up after going to sleep at bed time and you're probably right about the overtired, but also think it's just her inability to transition at this point. Once she gets past that first transition she's usually fine.
My next issue is how to deal with night feedings and getting her back to sleep.  When I nurse at night I don't burp her and I let her stay latched till she's fully asleep and then I put her back down.  It's worked pretty well but feel like I'm letting her linger too long instead of putting herself to sleep in the middle of the night.  My issue is, if I put her down fully awake she tends to stay awake for an hour or more and I often need to go replug the paci.  So how much is too much in the middle of the night?  What should I be doing to help relax her but not wait till she's totally passed out?  Or is it ok to let her totally pass out and then put her down?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on July 01, 2016, 09:44:13 am
Example on night feeding, tonight I nursed her at 1:30, she fell asleep while nursing, but I didn't let her fully pass out. Put her down at 2 am, she woke up, gave her paci.  It's 2:45 am and she's fallen asleep twice but then woken up as soon as the paci falls out and I have to go put it back in.  If I wait till she's fully asleep, I usually don't have to go back in at all or if I do, she falls right back to sleep once she has the paci back. 
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on July 01, 2016, 13:33:25 pm
I've never had experience with night feeding like this so my advice is limited really.  I have read that many LOs have no issue with feeding to sleep in the middle of the night if they are self settling for all other sleeps so it is perhaps not something to be concerned about. If the waking and needing to BF started to be more frequent and not clearly linked to hunger then I'd certainly tackle it.  You might want to post on BF or NW boards about it?
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on July 04, 2016, 01:09:12 am
Ok thank you!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: ireneasheard on July 10, 2016, 04:09:07 am
Why don't you do a dreamfeed? It would theoretically push the sleep past 2am so you'd have possibly 1 wake up not 2... also at 4 months old I'd have thought stretching to a 4 hour routine would b re more appropriate? Just some thoughts. My son is 3.5 months old and is already transitioning from 3 to 4 hour routine as he simply isn't hungry enough at the 3 hour mark to be feeding? Just some things to think about.
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: Tabathagucci on July 11, 2016, 13:56:00 pm
Thank you!  Once we got out of the 4 month sleep regression she started sleeping longer on her own and going between feeds longer.  She now wakes between 1 and 3 am, sometimes we give her the paci and she sleep till almost 5.  She goes about 3-4 hours between feeds during the day now too.  We were doing 8-9 nursings in 24 hours and now it's 6, sometimes 7.
We tried a dream feed at one point but then she would wake between 1-2 and again at 5 so we just stopped.  She kind of figured it out on her own once the sleep regression ended!  Whew!
Anyway, thank you all so much for the advice and support!  I'm sure I'll need more when the next regression hits!
Title: Re: Figuring out A times and wind down routine for possibly touchy 10 week old
Post by: creations on July 14, 2016, 09:20:09 am
Great update :)