BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: michaeljacknnugg on May 15, 2016, 14:25:44 pm
-
Ok ladies, I need some help with next steps for DS2.
He has just turned six months, is trying to crawl and has started BLW. He has two teeth and I can see the top two descending, though not yet cut.
He has always been resistant to naps, and takes a good hour to get into deep enough sleep at night before I can leave him. We've had glimpses of IS but with moving to a new cot and insisting on being up on hands and knees at all times, I am back to patting him.
He favours a long night and tacks to self regulate.
We try for a 7 to 7 day, with naps around 10 (40 mins) and 1 ( 1hr40ish). He moved to two naps early as he has a long A time, and I think it needs to jump again.
On our current routine he will just keep going and going, anything is more interesting than sleep. So really I need to be home for naps, which is tough when you need to fit them around the school day.
I'm wondering about trying for something like:
7am wake
11-12.30ish long nap
3.30 - short nap in car on way home from school. Can bring bedtime forward or push it back, depending on how he is.
7pm bed
Too big a jump, do you think? We've had the first nap as the long nap before, so I'm hoping it will work again. I can see the last nap phasing out as he gets into the 2-1.
-
Well those A times are for a much older baby obviously but BW is about listening to your baby and their needs and of course what works for your family. If he tacks on at night then that is great! If you go for this then obviously you will have to look for any OT signs and then adjust. Do you think once he has got over practicing his new moves, and when the top 2 teeth stop bothering him he may shorten his A times again? He might do!
-
The first A time is long...but that said my DDhas needed 4hrs at the end of the day since she was about 6.5 mo even though she can only handle 3hr-3hr15 at other A times
-
He has always had super long As, BB! Dropped to two naps around four months.
But yes, I will watch for OT. Yesterday we managed a 'good nap day' and he was UT for bt so I think it needs to cut down a bit.
He might be like my DS1 - I never really worried about OT with him as he just keeps going and then crashes.
-
Can you start From 10:30? We switched from short-long to long-short around 8mo so a tad later than you but I remember that even at 10am after 7am wakeup he was doing a good nap for me, so maybe such a jump in A time is not needed?
-
He might be like my DS1 - I never really worried about OT with him as he just keeps going and then crashes.
We were also 'lucky' that Olly never really suffered with OT, a bit of a blessing with an LO that doesn't like to sleep! I think my view (after spending SOOOOO many hours trying to get Olly to nap when he was a baby is that if he can handle long As and doesn't suffer from horrible OT then go with the least number of naps possible!
-
The problem with a 10.30 nap is that it will likely be a short one, and then the long nap will collide with the school run. It's horrible to have to wake him after all that effort to get to sleep! And he often goes until about eleven anyway - today, for example, he did a 20min nap 10.45-11.05 (woken by big bro) and then a 2hr nap this afternoon. And he's just gone to sleep complaining, which I hate.
He's also pulled some (effectively) 1 nap days recently, having a couple of minutes' sleep whilst feeding and then refusing to sleep until his normal afternoon nap. He really is LSN!
The only thing that might make him sleep more is expending energy through crawling, but I'm not holding my breath there.
-
And there is no way to pull that nap earlier in case that they are short OT naps? dare I ask! ;)
-
He would be asleep in the car or sling if he were tired any earlier. Gets plenty of opportunity, just (consistently) doesn't take it. And is cheerful and lively.
-
In that case I would go for about 10.45 for the first nap to start with (if you say 10.30 is too early). See how you go and push back when you can or if it still to short an A time!.
-
He sounds so cute!! :-*
-
Jacob is LSN, and liked a long first A time, but at 6 months 3.5 hrs would have been about right I think. Thomas is the entire opposite and he likes a short first A and struggles to get beyond 4 hrs even now.
Makes it so hard to advise, as they are all so different!
You really might find mobility helps yk? It did with all my kids (super LSN, about average, and Mr Sleepy ;)).
-
How are things going?
-
We are in a holding pattern for a couple of weeks. We all have germs plus our pony is on box rest with laminitis, so I can't switch our day around yet.
I put him down for a morning nap today when he seemed tired and we got an A of 3hrs20, but then he woke at the 20 minute mark. UT??
-
:'( he's just gone to sleep in my arms after crying and crying. He sounds cross at having to sleep to me, rather than OT, but either way I still hate it when he cries :'(
That was a 3.5hr A.
I blooming hate naps >:(
-
I'm going to log here for a few days, to see if it helps. Today:
Awake 06:50
Nap 10.10-10.30
Nap 14.05-15.45(ish)
Asleep for the day 19.30
Fought that last nap and was obviously UT at bt, blowing raspberries and such instead of his usual falling asleep immediately whilst feeding.
The only way I can extend naps atm is to feed. I'm not stressing about that now, I'll sort routine and IS first.
-
Wow, he's definitely a high A times kinda guy! Not sure about the 20 minute nap - how was his mood?
Log away. I'm following along!
-
He's generally fine, even on a 5 min nap.
Night was, erm, interesting. No other NWs (we've been getting quite a few) but feeds at 1.30 and 5. I had to actively keep him asleep by changing positions, jiggling or patting from 5am and it stopped working entirely by 6.10.
I think he needs his day sleep trimming somehow.
-
I think we're in a very similar routine spot, so don't think I can offer much advise. But following!
-
So, today:
Wake 6.10
Nap 10.00-10.30. Put himself to sleep in the cot, finally!!! I was so relieved, I thought he'd never do it.
Nap 1.30-2.00. Fell asleep in car, wouldn't/couldn't go back off while feeding
Asleep for the day 18.40
I'll update with the night's antics so that it stays in one post.
Here we are. Yucky night, started off by big bro coming in with an urgent question. Asleep 6.40, awake pretty much every sleep cycle until 10ish. Some crying hard at wakes, some just needed a cuddle.
Fed him at 10ish, kept him in bed with me until after the next feed at 02.00 and then he slept in the cot until 6ish. Fed again and he dozed on and off until 06.40.
What do you think, wise ladies? Definitely OT, but 6.30 was the earliest I could get him into bed last night and he declined a nap at around 5.30 :(. He's full of cold, also.
If I could find a routine that kept things more stable in terms of OT/UT I would be a lot happier. Tricky with the school run.
-
Would he have gone earlier for the second nap?
I think as long as you stick with sensible A times (accepting he seems to be one of these babies that only likes to sleep when really tired - with super short naps and OT nights its kind of hard to say how much sleep he really needs overall isn't it?), and keep encouraging independent sleep I think you will get there.
With all of mine once I got independent sleep (and true independent ie pop in cot and walk off), they all short napped for a bit, but it didn't take all that long for them to learn to transition cycles as well, especially at 6 months plus.
School run kind of means you only get 2 options - one is a shorter am nap to preserve a lunchtime nap that is done in time to leave for school. That leaves you with a long A to bed. Otherwise you push the am A as hard as you can, and then aim for a CN on the go later on. Its all more 9ish months really, but I think plenty of 6 month olds would cope if needs be.
The night before was much better wasn't it? I wouldn't over interpret the 5am thing as UT at this time of year - lighter mornings and singing birds etc has all started again hasn't it? Babies are just so prone to it regardless!!
-
It's the evening settling that was UT, to my mind. Normally he goes off relatively easily, but that night was a big fuss. It did get me more sleep overall, though! It was a shorter night, that first one I've logged.
I don't know if he'd have gone earlier for that second nap. No option as we were out. He took a while to get to sleep, pretty much the whole journey home.
I'd imagine that he will follow in big bro'so footsteps and cope with a long morning A, but at present he seems to need a long one in the afternoon in order to settle for bed.
-
Today:
Wake 6.40
Really upset before school run, fell asleep feeding when we got back.
So, nap 9-10.10ish
Nap 1-1.30
Nap 5-5.30 as he wasn't going to make it through to bt
Finally asleep, after vociferous protests, at 7.50
....and woke again after his first sleep cycle.
Sleep is starting to really get me down. I need him to self settle for naps, at least, to give me some kind of break. It's just relentless.
-
And clearly it is anyones guess if he was OT or UT at bedtime ;) ::).
Was that nap at 1pm independent or not?
-
Nooo. Got really upset, I had to hold him.
That independent nap had me putting him in the sling for a few mins beforehand so I will try that again.
Night was ok. Feeds at 00.30 and 04.00. Stirred a bit in the early hours, woke 06.30.
ETA DH has just told me he patted him back to sleep at that wake. I'd swapped rooms as I couldn't sleep (coughing).
He got really upset around 8.30 again. This is a regular thing and I'm wondering if there's anything in it. Normally I'd offer a feed but it was so close to the last one, I put him in the sling instead. Then tried putting him to bed - he cried fairly hard but then went to sleep with patting fairly easily.
Surely after a short night he'd need an earlier nap, but I'm wondering if actually his body clock is telling him to nap around then, given it's a common time for him to get upset? Thinking out loud here...
-
Wondering if I know anything at all about him now!! Really good nap day:
Wake 06.30
Nap (patted to go off) 09.05-10.15
Nap (independent) 13.0-14.30 then fed back to sleep until 15.15
Bedtime 18.30, went to sleep nicely.
This would be a lovely little routine if we could replicate it...horses might object for the next week or so but after that should be ok.
-
Urgh, rough night!
He needed resettling after the first sleep cycle, slept until 10 and then was up every hour and a half or so after that until 03.30. Three feeds in that period as nothing else was working.
Thankfully we got a block of sleep then, until 7.
-
Talking to myself here :P. But hey, helps to see it written down.
Today:
Wake 07.00
Nap (patted) 09.10-09.40
Nap (semi-independent. I didn't do anything, just stayed in the room) 13.20-14.40. Fed back to sleep after first sleep cycle
Bedtime 6.20, out like a light.
I think I will set naps at 09.00 and 1.30. Would you set bedtime, as well?
-
I'm following! Just hadn't replied because you seemed to be thinking it through yourself :P that shirt am, longer pm looks good. I would do a bedtime "window" with set naps - looks like 18.30 +\- 15mins would work for you
Xxx
-
Will try it.
Would do anything for a run of decent nights! I've been poorly for the last six weeks or so, wonder why????
-
Keep going!! It's so tough, I am incredibly sympathetic. I'm never very useful at these things....but we had some awful sleep when we started solids. I did BLW so the volumes weren't huge but my baby went off feeding in the day a bit because mealtimes were just so interesting, and needed more NF for a bit. He also got quite constipated as I think (TMI!!) he really disliked the sensation of passing a more solid stool. I think that maybe it's just such a lot to think about for them, and maybe the BLW makes it more disruptive because they are learning all the new skills of pincer grip etc at the same time.
Don't know if that helps, because you obviously can't just keep him on milk forever ;D but it's just a BTDT!!
-
I did wonder about that being a factor. I brougt dinner forward today and made sure he had no 'new substances' that late. Yesterday he had strawberries which he LOVED, but I don't know if his tummy did.
He is like a bottomless pit right now! No dirty nappy today, which worries me a bit.
-
Another 'urgh' night :( and we are both exhausted.
Slept well at first, fed 11.30 and then again at 02.30. Then he was coughing so much he was sick. I held him and tried to keep him asleep until 03.30, then took him through (asleep) to DH in the other room so I could change the cot sheet and use the toilet. Whereupon the silly man put him down to go to the toilet himself and woke him up! Not pleased is a very polite way of putting it.
Eventually back to sleep in his cot, 04.00-06.30.
-
Today:
Wake 06.30
Nap (patted, cried hard as soon as I put him down) 09.20-10.40. Resettled with feeding
Nap (independent, went off fairly quickly) 13.20-14.00. Wouldn't resettle.
Asleep for the day 06.10.
I wonder why it's easier to get an independent nap for that second one??
-
I think it is likely because that first nap is just not very set yet. I would just carry on as you are - it seems as though it is coming!!
-
Yes, I do think it is coming. We've had independent afternoon naps all week, despite some pretty ropey nights.
Just when I needed it, really. I was starting to get really fed up of having to stay with him for all of his naps.
-
Oh, he is a stinker!!
Today he had a good long morning nap, and then off we went to our local craft market and then the park for a picnic. Daddy took him for a walk at nap time, no joy. Car ride, ditto. Attempted to feed to sleep when we got home, and he just got really cross. So I gave up and got him up for a bit. He finally crashed at 4pm, 2.5hrs after his normal nap time! And of course he's fought bedtime as well, even though he looks exhausted.
I surmise from this that he will only sleep if it's boring. Honestly!!
-
None of mine ever did well on the go from this sort of age. Just the way it is, really. It is a pain for the 2 naps a day routine, but isn't a big deal from one nap onwards. Thomas will fall asleep on the way home from wherever we have been, but I can usually transfer him no problem now.
-
I am getting to the end of my tether >:( :'(
Again, tried for an hour this morning and he was having none of it. Looked like he would go several times, so I persisted, but after 45mins I had to leave him and go into the other room and let off steam. Last night I couldn't put him down until 10pm so I went to bed without brushing my teeth. Again. I am so fed up of being stuck in a darkened room, but what is the alternative if he won't sleep elsewhere?
Why won't he sleep???? I need some time off, I can't do this forever.
-
Hi Hon, would like some additional eyes? If yes can you please update where you are right now with independent sleep and routine?
-
Yes please!
We are aiming for set naps at 9 and 1.30, day length of 12hrs. He usually wakes between 6.30 and 7.
I thought we had cracked it last week. Self settled for all afternoon naps plus the morning and at bedtime on Friday. And now we are back to this.
Bedtimes are often a case of him conking out on the breast and then needing to be held until he's in a deep sleep. That's another thing I'd like to tackle, in time.
-
Isn't 9 a bit too early for a 6mo, especially LSN? I mean for some kiddos it won't be, but for some it will be I guess. You were previously on 2 naps but short morning one much later?
-
Goodness knows! It was working, he was going off quite happily any time between 8.45 and 9.15.
He's always slept later because we've been out and about. And now it seems he won't sleep on the go at all.
-
And now it seems he won't sleep on the go at all.
J isn't sleeping on the go anymore either. It's a drag but as Liz reminded us, once they get to 1 nap it's not as big a deal.
Maybe he's had another A time push and the set times aren't working now? I'm finding J is shifting every week or 2. I can't keep up!
-
He could be catching up or anything similar, but 9 could be definitely too early for a kiddo that age. I would think of moving that nap to a set time but later so 9:30? Or even 10:00 if at 9:30 he will be tired. If needed I would also push a second nap so ie 9:30 and 1:30 or 2:00. Wdyt?
-
I can't push the second nap, and therein lies the problem. He has to be up and out for 3pm for the school run.
ETA if he can't sleep on the go any more, then we have to fit in the daily visit to the horses plus (long, BLW) meals into his A times. That's going to be tough because realistically, it would have to be the second A, and that would likely prevent me from getting anything else done.
Today so far:
Wake 6.20
Nap (DH took him in the end, I was so frustrated and needed to walk away) 10.20-10.40
Just put him down at 14.00, quiet so far so we will see how it goes.
If he doesn't need that early nap, why is he getting upset (really upset) regularly around 8.30? It's not like him to be upset for no reason.
-
What routine are you on now, GAM?
-
You can push and cap the first nap so the second end before 3pm. That's not a problem. He might be extremly OT of grumpy at 8:30 and OT at 9:00 this problem with settling but being honest my son now almost 2.5y gets up at 6:30/7:00 and is grumpy at 8:30 to the dot...:) from the moment he was 6months or so LOL. Just not his time:))).
-
Funny things, aren't they?
Well, he self settled for that second nap (thank goodness) and my big boy manned the baby monitor whilst playing mine craft, so I got a bit of time out in the sunshine. I needed that.
The rest of the day was
Nap 14.10-14.50
Bed 18.30. Fought it again, looked very very tired but went off with patting. I'm staying until we get past the first sleep cycle...
Tomorrow we have a busy day so we will just have to make it up as we go along.
I'd be very happy to extend the length of his day rather than cut naps atm, a 12hr day is a real rush and we don't really get any adult time in the evening now DS1 is bigger. What do you think his day would look like with a shorter night?
-
Hmmm, I am not quite sure you can go for a longer day now when your nap has to end at 3pm. With 1.5h nap he can be OT in the evening what do you think? In general I would go for something like:
Nap at 9:30 or 10:00 - probably a short cycle so 45min to 1h if he is an LSN
Nap at 1/1:30 till 3pm
BT at 7pm
Right now he seems to be a bit OT in the evening as his last nap is short and the longest A is there?
-
Hahaha!! Sorry!!
His first nap is max 40mins and he can go all morning (and recently has) on 3 minutes! That's why I'm not keen on capping, really.
He normally manages one short (40mins, normally the first one) and one long (1hr20ish) nap a day.
He needs that long A to bed. I've experimented with a shorter one and all it does is lengthen the day. He's OT today, because he's only had 2x40mins and a short night last night.
-
It's not a surprise that his first nap is short if he is going on it 2h after waking and right now have even problems with settling. Still I would experiment with A length as your seems very different through the day and it's difficult to say id 3h will make him OT or UT:).
-
I feel like I've been experimenting forever, that's the thing. And last week when I brought that nap forward and he started to self settle, I felt like I might be able to get my life back. I'm so, so fed up of spending my life in a darkened room and trying to work out when to put him down. If he needs holding to go to sleep, he needs holding to stay asleep.
He always has one short, one long nap, no matter what I do. Or two short if I can't resettle. He errs on the side of less sleep rather than more.
He's just woken after 50mins and sobbed his little heart out with me patting him. I could only take 10mins, I picked him up and instantly he was calm and went off again with patting. I won't be able to put him down for a good while yet. And I've been up here on my own with him (bath, bed) for two hours now. No one has even come to see how we are, even though I was distraught this morning.
I've had it with sleep, I really have. I am doing this 99% of the time solo and it's driving me crazy.
-
What routine are you on now, GAM?
We're doing a long a.m. nap and shorter p.m. nap but it's starting to change.
W 7/7:30
Nap #1 - 11:00 til 12:30/1
Nap #2 - 4:00 til 4:30/45
Bed 8ish
Works for our school run at 2:15
But we've had a string of really good nights but EWs. So she's been up by 6 most days. We've also had days like yesterday where she hasn't done a long 1st nap and we've scraped by on 2 catnaps. We've got 2 weeks left in the school year, so I'm going to try to keep up that long a.m. nap as best I can (even if I have to APOP) til school's out. Then, I'm hoping to switch to a longer p.m. nap to make it easier to get out in the a.m.s...Hopefully....
Could morning crankiness be hunger?
Sorry your so frustrated by his sleep, hun. I can relate to not having much help with it all and when I can't seem to sort a workable routine for the family, I get really frustrated too.
Do you think he's teething or anything right now?
-
I don't know about teething. Dribble and chewing would say maybe, but he's happier to play than last time. When he got the bottom two I couldn't put him down!
Hunger I don't think is an issue. He's cranky at 8.30 even if he's been fed at 8, yk?
-
His night are pretty dodgy though, hey? I bet that explains why he is tired early in the am. It is a tag on to the night type of thing - which in the long term you may want to deal with - but maybe not now.
Does he need a bit more space to settle? All 3 of mine really outgrew any assistance to settle round about this sort of age - and regained it later when they were more reasonable ;) ::).
Likewise the napping on the go has returned a bit. We went out to the zoo today, and he fell asleep in my sling about 1 hr after his usual nap. I transferred him to the buggy and he slept 1.5hrs :o :o.
-
I did wonder about that, Liz.
His nights are better again now he's over the cough. Generally two feeds, and 11.5-12hrs.
I have learned today that he will still sleep on the go (phew!) but he has to have a good crack at it. No chopping and changing. We were at the farm putting up fences this morning and he just snuggled in and went to sleep in the sling at 9.15, which is the time he's most commonly gone to sleep this last week or so. Similarly he was tired by 1.30 and asleep in the buggy by 1.40.
Persist, for now?
-
I would I think. I've never had much luck with anything without being consistent for a while. Like you say - it's not like there are many other suitable routines for you guys anyway.
-
Yup, there's the rub. I think when we change again it will be a big jump to a long middle-of-the-day nap plus a catnap on the way home from school.
He's changed so much in just a few days. Properly crawling around now, sitting unaided, eating off a fork and diving in with his hands to a bowl of bits and pieces for lunch yesterday. It's no wonder their sleep goes off when they're doing all of that.
-
Funny how experience makes you notice the developmental stuff. T is a pain at night at the moment, but he is trying so hard to learn to talk (as well as finishing off a molar and a canine), and I am sure it is that :). But with J I would have been convinced it was my routine, yk?
-
We may have teeth in the mix, too, if this evening is anything to go by.
Yes, experience does make you think about it differently. They are trying to learn so much in such a short space of time!
-
Ok, a little update.
I am fairly sure we have the right routine for now - it works out as 3-3.5, then 3-3.5, then 3.5-4hrs of A time. If that makes any sense!
I am going to keep that first nap on the go. Pony stuff means I need to spend a decent amount of time at the yard each morning, and I would feel horrible tied to the house for naps.
When napping at home this week he's managed to self settle for most of the afternoon naps.
What I could do with help on is working out whether to intervene or not. My instinct says I've got him worked out, but I'd like to check.
When he self settles, he might briefly protest when I lay him down but then starts making other noises or goes quiet.
At other times, the times we struggle, he will cry, go quiet briefly, cry again and repeat. Even with me patting him. I timed it today and within 2 minutes he was a sweaty mess. He coughs when he is crying, and I'm scared he will just work himself up and up until he is inconsolable (he's done this a couple of times in the car, it was not pretty).
Do I respond straight away to this kind of cry? Or tell myself it's a mantra and give him more space? Instinct says the former but my head says it might be interfering with the independent sleep thing.
We get it for that first nap most often, if we're trying for a nap at home, but also if I try to put him down too early in the evening. I generally have to hold him for the first couple of sleep cycles before he will go down for the night.
-
Stop - start - stop - start really does sound like a mantra to me :-\. I def think you can afford to leave and see what happens when they are like that. Thomas can be a bit like that if he is a bit UT, but I leave him to it mainly else it takes him a week to settle. Thomas is extremely shrill and persistent if he really wants someone ::).
I've had 2 car seat screamers, but I'm not sure either of mine have ever managed that degree of screaming just from being left for a few minutes it try and settle.
I think you can afford 60 seconds to experiment for sure. All 3 of mine hated being patted by this sort of age. Actually, if I start patting Thomas (in comfort rather than to try to help him sleep - old habits die hard!), he usually either pats me and laughs, or thumps me :o ::). Clearly doesn't see it as a soothing thing at all!
-
I'm timing, it does help! We've had quite a few self settles, even a morning one yesterday. And he settled with Daddy at the weekend while I went out. It was nice to 'swap jobs'.
Blimey, he's developing at a rate of knots atm. Not just crawling but is suddenly everywhere, discovering all the things he shouldn't (did you know? Crocs are lovely and chewy!), starting to work up to pulling up and has managed to get from sitting to crawling a few times. Help!!
So in all that time that I've been wondering if he'll ever go to sleep on his own, he's been busy on other things.
We do have another challenge to solve though....when he's settled himself, he's gone to sleep half in the cot, half on the mattress (which is higher). I'm hovering right now to ensure he's safe, but I'll have to work out how to move the fourth side on the cot - and hope he's not too cross about it.
-
If he is that mobile you just need to put the other side up and be done with it ;). He will likely be happy since it will give him a more secure space that he can roll around iyswim?
If standing back for 60 secs helps then maybe extend for 90 secs? Some kids really do just like to fuss themselves to sleep - including the bigger ones ;) ;) ::).
I did know crocs are chewy btw ;D, but am equally glad to be past that oral phase :P.
The main thing that upsets our sleep is developmental leaps. He just seems to be coming to the end of an awful phase which seems to be associated with starting to talk.
-
I can't get the blasted thing to move by myself! We are borrowing a different cot for his bedroom for naps. It will help the transition, if nothing else.
-
Ack. Sleep is tough going atm. All four incisors are coming through at the top, giving us some very unsettled nights.
Today he pulled a one nap day. Basically didn't fall asleep until 10, slept until 11.30 and resisted a later nap despite a drive, offer of a feed etc. I had him in bed as early as I could but he was still up after twenty minutes screaming :(.
It looks like A times do need a push somewhere, once the teeth are through. Given that the two nap day is likely to fail again, because he just won't sleep if we are out and about, maybe throwing in the odd single nap day wouldn't hurt? He's nearly 8mo.
-
He's being a bit of a pest isn't he?
I do doubt that one nap days will do much good really, as he really is young for it :-\. I had Megan on 1 nap at 10 months, but TBH there was a lot of OT in the mix until about 15 months or so. Although if he is nap refusing there isn't a lot you can do apart from accept the messy evenings and nights, sadly.
Rather than attempt every type of APOP under the sun would he be best popped in bed? Even if he doesn't sleep he could roll around and get some quiet time, and that may help you get to bedtime?
-
What's his routine, more or less, now?
I'd probably wait til the teeth come thru before much or a routine change.
J has had a couple 1 nap days, but I know she's not quite ready for it full time. The only reason she's coped is bc they've been midday and long (2.5/3hrs). Basically, she's refused an earlier nap and crashed hard when we finally get home. She's actually still hovering around 3.5/4hr A times now.
-
He's being a terror! Just when we had a good couple of weeks and I'd started working on evenings, it all goes to pot again ::).
The evening was extremely unsettled, and when he's seriously tired he does a kind of shaking thing as he falls asleep that I find really alarming. Would love any words of wisdom you have on that, Liz.
Atm I'm aiming for:
6 wake, feed
7ish breakfast
Top up feed around 8/8.30, as this gave us an independent nap the first few times I tried it. More recently he's just fallen asleep and taken an early nap. I tried bringing breakfast later (to eight) today instead.
Nap 9.20-9.50, he really is very predictable if we're at home
Lunch between 12 & 12.30
Nap 1.20-2.50. Recently (even on days he's not fallen asleep on the boob for that first nap) he's been trying to latch as I put him down. This is really unusual for him, and I'm thinking the top up feed might be best moved to the afternoon somehow
Dinner 5pm then straight into bath and bed, aiming for him to be asleep between 6 and 6.30.
Honestly I feel like I run through our evenings, and I hate it. After we get home from school it's straight into cooking, eating, bath and bed with no time to breathe. A later bedtime would be ideal, but I've no idea how to get one as he's so tired come 6.
What would you suggest? School pickup is at 3.
-
So today I wasn't on pickup so I decided to follow his lead wrt timings. Both were a bit of a shot in the dark, and each sleep has been a real struggle - but on the plus side he did do a long nap on his own.
Unsettled evening lead to 3 feeds (unusual but he'd barely eaten that day so I went with it), up 6.30
Nap 10-10.40, a bear to get down
Nap 14.20-15.40. I'm a bit hazy on timings, I was exhausted and fell asleep
He looked shattered at teatime so I skipped bath. Fought bedtime, asleep 6.20. Might as well have done bath!
If this is how his naps naturally fall (not sure I've got them right yet, but it gives an idea) then school pickup is an issue. But maybe things might fall into place over the summer? Only two weeks of school to go.
-
It took him hours to settle in the end, partly because DH came home and instructed me to take a break (fresh off a plane - my hero). Asleep for the night 8.20pm.
Surely he is knackered?!?
-
The 'shaking' falling asleep is likely just myoclonus isn't it? Same as they do for the 'jolts' when they are babies? Adults do it as well as part of a normal thing - but it can be more pronounced when overtired.
Will he ever sleep longer for a first nap? I just wonder if a longer am A, followed by a longer nap, and a pm CN would be better?
-
Will he ever sleep longer for a first nap? I just wonder if a longer am A, followed by a longer nap, and a pm CN would be better?
I was wondering the same. That's what we I did until summer break here. And, actually most days this summer too. Would something like this work with your school run?
7am wake
Nap #1 - 11 to 12:30
Nap #2 3:30/4pm - 45 mins or so
Bed 7:30ish
-
Yes, he does throw in the occasional longer morning nap, how do I encourage that?
GAM we seem to be on a 6-6 day, which actually suits our family quite well. I guess if I have to walk to school and back for one half term, that's what I'll do.
Up at 6, sigh. We both have summer colds and I'm feeling rotten. Please let him sleep today!!
-
The problem with, say, a 10.30 nap is the feed. By rights you'd be expecting one around ten, but then he'd doze off on the boob!
I'm open to giving a snack and maybe a cup of formula, but is the milk really necessary at eight months?
-
Think I just answered my own question there - I went to try to put him down after a 4hr A and he was desperate for a feed. So a top up is needed somewhere.
-
I'm pretty sure milk is recommended as main nutrition source until 12mo. I still feed DD 4x in the day (7,11ish,3ish&6.30).
Hope you get good naps today. I'm also trying to work out best routine for DD and struggling!
-
I wouldn't worry if one nap is a feed before, assuming others are independent at other points.
I do milk before nap and bedtime actually ;). Obviously a bottle, but he falls asleep independently afterwards.
-
Hmmm.
What's your current routine, SM? How do the feeds fit in?
-
Thinking out loud here:
6am - Wake and feed
7.30/8 breakfast
10am - winddown in bedroom, feed and book. Eventually replace this with cup of formula and book. Take less formula each week if he still goes to sleep with the cup (we were always planning to combo feed, to allow me to go out with my big boy)
Hope he wakes at 11.30! Push this nap further out if possible.
12- lunch
Nap either on way home from school, or just after we get home
5 - dinner
6.30-7 bed. He feeds to sleep at present, might do something to change things up once we have a new routine going.
1
-
Our routine is in flux, keep getting EW so just started trying to push nap later.
Anyway today we had this
Wu 5,45, get up at 6
6&7am milk (she'll only take 1 side at 6)
8am breakfast
Nap: 10-11.30
Milk 11.30
Lunch 12.30
Nap 2.25-3.05 ( I was aiming for a 3.30-4pm nap but she fell asleep early in the car)
Milk: 3.15
Tea: 5pm
Milk 6.30
BT 7pm
I have DS tomorrow so going to try for nap 1: 10-10.30 and nap 2:2-3.30pm but milk and meals around same times (afternoon milk a little later obviously, on waking from nap)
-
So, you don't feed for quite a long stretch in the morning, then?
I had a go at pushing him out further today. He was really fussy in the morning but we grabbed some strawberries from the front garden on the way home from school, and that turned into a (huge) second breakfast. He was really chirpy after that, no signs of tiredness whatsoever, so I aimed for 10.30.
Cue trying to eat me as I put him down....I tried anyway, left him a bit and it was clear he just needed feeding. Asleep within minutes and has just gone through a sleep cycle transition. ETA he did a long nap (for him, 1hr 20), but was shaking like a leaf as he fell asleep.
So he can do a long first nap....but without feeding? I do wonder if life would be much easier if I went 'sod this, I'm just going to enjoy him' and fed him to sleep for all naps.
-
How long does he take on a milk feed? If he's up at 6 could you nurse him at 10 & still have time for a short WD before putting him down at 10.30?
You've worked so hard to get him to SS I feel that it would be a shame to lose that hard work...& you said you want to stop BF at 12mo when you go back to work so it would be good to have him managing IS for naps before then so it's not an extra stress as end of Mat leave approaches xxx
-
My DD always short napped without a feed first. Never transitioned anything, not once. Fed before and she was perfect. DS2 doesn't need it in the same way, but I tend to now he is older as it squeezes some calcium in (he tends to refuse milk otherwise).
-
Ummmm......I'm a bit stumped. Experience over the last few weeks has shown that if I feed him at any time past around nine, he falls asleep. A lot have been short naps, so later and longer is an improvement, but self settling will be difficult to achieve.
I did take him off earlier than normal, and put him down slightly awake. Maybe that's where I start.
-
The day ended up like this:
Awake 5.50
Nap 10.30-11.50, fed either side of it
14.00 feed
15.0-15.15ish short nap in the car, he woke as I tried to transfer him but was happy enough
18.20 asleep
-
Ummmm......I'm a bit stumped. Experience over the last few weeks has shown that if I feed him at any time past around nine, he falls asleep.
This makes me wonder whether he might actually be tired around this time and need a first nap earlier than 10.30? Sorry I haven't reviewed your whole thread, have you tried an earlier, short CN e.g. around 9.30 then a longer nap after lunch?
-
Yes, we've been like this for a while:
6
9.20-9.50
13.30-14.50
6
But he's clearly not tired for the afternoon nap and fighting it, then OT for bedtime. Self settling has disappeared again, too.
When I pushed him through today he was quite happy, so maybe the tiredness is habitual? He's often fussy very early, like an hour or two after he wakes. And he has good nights, in general 11.5-13.5hrs.
-
We hit a similar issue and I kept first nap around 9.30 -9.40 but capped it at 20 mins so we still got 13.30 nap. It worked for 2 wks until we got EW (for 2 weeks) Now I'm pushing through to a longer first A and long first nap and wondering why I didn't just do that in the first place!
No answers sorry, just my own ramblings on our experience!
-
Tricky stage, I guess. At least I'm not alone!
-
Today:
Up 5.15-5.40ish, back to sleep until 6.40
Nap (fed to sleep) 10.20-11
Nap (DH cuddled him and put him down drowsy) 2.45-3.20
Thought he'd be really tired but resisted bedtime. Asleep 6.20, up every sleep cycle since but has settled ok. I've put him to bed in his room and will continue for consistency; he can come in with me after the first feed.
The next tooth is on the way so I can predict self settling will be impossible. I'm going to let DH settle him for naps as much as I can over the weekend because I'm fed up of stressing over independent sleep. I need a break from striving for something that seems completely unattainable.
-
Super Daddy got him a long AM nap and he nodded off in the car around 3. The later day seems to suit him so far.
Settling is still bothering me, though. No feeding to sleep today and since we're in his bedroom we've done bath-book-feed-settling tonight. Took ages though and he wasn't happy.
He's spirited so PUPD is out. Shh pat is past working as he just squirms away. I'm feeling kinda lost. WIWO? GW?
Here's what I did tonight; I'm not sure what header it comes under.
Feed, song, put down.
He cried hard so I picked up immediately. My gut says he will always need this reassurance.
Calmed, bounced him a bit, put down. Repeat until he got very upset, so kept him in my arms and bounced gently (my yoga ball is coming in handy).
At this point he started trying to eat me again! He's an oral baby but refused a dummy. I gave him a blanket with chewy bits on that he loves, and he started to chew on this whilst we bounced. Then went off pretty quickly.
So
Negatives - still feeling lost, unsure of why IS comes and goes for us
Positives - he went to sleep without feeding to sleep for the last two nights. Instinct says that's important for him (wasn't for DS1). Is it possible he's just chosen his own lovey??
-
He sounds like my DS as a baby. Needed a lot of reassurance from us for sleep. GW was only option for us as any option which involved crying (PU/PD, WI/WO, I mean) just got him more worked up.
Good that he's chosen a lovey though- that made all the difference for DS too- he had an old pyjama top of mine though which felt a bit inappropriate when he got older and wanted to take it everywhere he went!
Could the inconsistency of IS be developmental leap/ SA related?
-
I did wonder, esp when I looked at the WIWO sticky. I've never done it before.
Would you mind sharing what you did with your DS?
-
Of course!
I did a combination of an adapted sh-pat & gradual withdrawal.
So after WD routine I would cuddle him until calm then put him in the cot with my PJ top next to him and continue to hold him there and sh until he fell asleep (patting and picking up were too stimulating for him and kept him awake longer).
Once I knew he could sleep in the cot I would cuddle him for shorter and shorter time until I just went straight from WD to into the cot & holding there.
Then I started letting go of him to let him settle himself earlier and earlier so holding until sleepy but not asleep, then after that worked just have a hand on mattress next to him, then just standing by cot, behind cot, by the door, outside door etc.
It took a few weeks but was worth it.
-
Thank you SM!
I've come to the conclusion over the last few days that getting him to go to sleep happily is the key first step.
Last night he only woke once after bedtime, which is very unusual. The night before, we only had one night feed!
He's also starting to put the chewy bits of his taggie into his mouth as he goes to sleep. So once I can take my interventions away he will be left with that, white noise and a consistent wind down to help him. I'm not sure I can give him any more, yk?
-
He's also starting to put the chewy bits of his taggie into his mouth as he goes to sleep. So once I can take my interventions away he will be left with that, white noise and a consistent wind down to help him. I'm not sure I can give him any more, yk?
That's pretty much what DS (age 3) still goes to sleep with now...although we replaced white noise with just a lullaby on my phone as white noise all night seemed too much.
What you described with doing what you need to calm him initially is pretty much what we did, then we're gradually able to replace the AP stuff with just a hold, no movement. DS was the same, needed to be calm to settle. It takes time to teach them but is worth it.
-
I'm just not sure how he will get drowsy with no movement? He may surprise me, I hope so.
Touch wood it's nearly 9pm and he has not woken once since bedtime. That's pretty much a first! So I think I focus on evenings, keep everything consistent and hope naps fall into place.
-
Last night was brilliant! He woke for a feed around 2, went back down again and didn't hear a peep out of him until morning.
I accidentally let him go a bit too long this morning though, and he's been less happy to sleep today and already up once since bedtime. If you get to him quickly he goes back off within minutes though, so my plan is to hang out in his room until I see him roll over and go through a sleep transition by himself.
-
Fingers crossed for another good night for you xxx
-
I'm sure you have seen pictures of my DS2 on FB with his wretched cloth in his mouth >:(. Horrid thing (although I remember thinking it was amazing when he first started doing it ;)).
I always rocked/ swayed until finally cracking IS. I'm def no expert at GW type stuff - I'm a WIWO type :-[ - I'm just to impatient for GW (and it is good that I know that as otherwise I end up getting cross and that never helps....). Although DS2 has never really needed any sleep training. One day he just 'got it'.
Although by 8 months all my babies were FF - J due to reflux, M due to my diagnosis, and T always was anyway. It might mean my experience isn't that helpful as it isn't the same.
-
Hopefully he will just 'get it', too!
Although I'm pretty happy with where we are for now, and suspect nursery will crack the final step for us.
My boobs woke me before he did last night! 7pm to 3.45am, I feel like a different person. I'm missing him terribly at night, though.
And he's just gone an hour into a morning nap.
All I'm doing is wind down (into bag, song, white noise on) and then gently bouncing on the ball with him and his taggie. He gives me a lovely snuggle before he goes to sleep :). I think for him, going to sleep happy and waking in the knowledge that someone will be there is key, and always has been. The way he's made?
-
>:( Blasted school run.
He was up at 11, fair enough. But he really needed to nap by 3 and had no chance, school is far too noisy and interesting. I managed to get him down by 4 but that's a 5hr A which is too long really - and then I had to wake him up to go to the dentist!! Grr.
-
:o he STTN :o
I did not, of course. Too busy checking he was still there ::)
-
It is funny when they first start isn't it? Thomas is pretty reliable to STTN these days, but I do remember the first few weeks being really odd (although I was so tired I was pretty grateful as well ;)).
I wouldn't worry about the A times that much. One longer and one CN is likely what he needs, regardless of what time it happens iyswim? Just like my DS2 needs one big sleep or 2 short sleeps. Thomas often still naps at 11am rather than a proper toddler nap, and just ends up with a long A to bed, but it doesn't seem to matter very much really.
-
Right now I'd be happy with one NF. I certainly got less sleep than normal last night!
-
Well, we've moved on a touch but he's still fighting sleep like a maniac whatever time I attempt a nap.
Progress, first:
Very little feeding to sleep at bt now, STTN 4 times (I'm counting!)
I have managed once to just stay on his floor and sing until he goes to sleep by himself. Other times it is a bit of a performance (picking up when he's upset, putting down when wriggly) to be able to get him to the point where he will lie down. Then I can just wiggle his hips until he goes to sleep.
It's taking aaaaages, though, and I'm going back a step if he's too upset.
Does this sound ok? Have you any ideas at all to help him stop fighting it? It's like anything at all - the ceiling, even - is more interesting than sleep!!
E
-
I'm casting my mind back to ST with DS...
I remember him taking what felt like a long time to put himself to sleep in the cot. As long as he was calm in the cot, I stood back (or more accurately hid lying next to the cot or standing behind it!) and waited, only intervening (sh-hold) if he cried. I have a clear memory of watching him chatter to himself, kick his legs up, try to suck in his feet, wave his arms and legs around, thinking he's never going to sleep...then suddenly he would roll over, suck his lovey and switch off!
Once I knew this was what he did I started standing further away, then by the door, then outside the door. Probably kept this up a lot longer than I needed to, but he was my first and I couldn't really believe he was actually SS at long last!
Is it worth a try standing back once he's in the cot and calm and see what happens?
-
I am trying to!
Here's roughly what happens:
Into room, white noise on, sing a couple of verses holding him and then into cot.
He will get up and down many times. As long as he's happy, I lie on the floor in sight.
If he's unhappy, I pick him up and sway a bit with him, putting him down when he starts struggling or moving around a lot.
He typically gets unhappy as he tires and struggles to get down without hurting himself. As he gets sleepier he will spend more time sitting/lying down, but also gets upset more.
Eventually I can put him down sleepy and he will snuggle in. Not sure I could leave him at that point, worth a try?
-
Sounds like you're doing everything you can & working really hard on the sleep training with him, responding when he needs you but also giving him opportunity to SS.
Yes- when you sense he's ready to go to sleep, I'd start trying to gradually move back/out. He's approaching SA age soon though so might need to be a gradual withdrawal still but worth trying to get him SS without you in the room, even just for last bit, before SA kicks in fully!
-
Yeah, I think we have some SA going on as he settled way better for DH, who did both naps today.
Last night I started taking a step back from the cot when he was happy, and that seemed to work. Got halfway to the door! Also instead of picking him up I bent over and gave him a hug whilst he was standing up. Feeling my way through it!
-
Ack, it's so frustrating! I handed over to DH tonight as it was just getting too much. I wish he'd just go to sleep!!!
That said he is crawling, cruising, clapping, eating well and starting to make meaningful sounds. He is using every minute to learn and is a joy...apart from that darn settling!
-
Big hugs, sounds like he's doing a lot of developmental stuff and is too busy learning to sleep!
How did he settle for your DH? Could you share the ST on a regular basis?
-
He's way better for DH and tbh it's time he took a turn. I've dealt with sleep practically singlehanded for 6, maybe 7 months. He can do some weekday bedtimes, and some weekend naps.
My big one needs me too, it will do us good to swap.
-
Thought I'd do a quick update.
Generally we are still getting a short first and longer second nap, at times that won't be great for school. Hoping something changes by the time we go back.
Settling is loads better. Sit down with him on lap, sing until he cuddles in and goes to sleep. Lovely! And since he's done that, he's woken much much less at night and needed less resettling at nap time.
We are getting quite a few STTN, but quite a few EWs also. Never easy, is it? What do you do again for EW? Push morning A out slightly?
-
We got EWs when J starting sleeping thru more often, too. I attributed it to hunger and used to feed her in the dark. She'd either nod off again or not. But, eventually I needed to stop that so as to not reinforce the WU time... It's a fine line. But I do think it's a common thing to get EWs when they stop waking for a feed. Her nights are getting longer now at 10 months. If it becomes an issue, yes, I believe you want to push the first A.
That's great you've made so much progress with SS! We are still 2 steps forward 1 step back with that.
Glad you've got a good routine going. You will figure it out again when your DS heads back to school. DD1 just went back and we're figuring all that out now!
-
Yeah, things are changing already. He did one 30min nap on a 13hr day on Wed, two short naps and normal bedtime yesterday..... And today he's done more normal naps and then fought bt. After getting up at 5.30. Honestly!!
One nap days can't be that far off.
So your self settling goes back and forth? That's interesting to know. Once DS1 had got it, he didn't really need a lot more help. This little guy is very different.
-
So your self settling goes back and forth? That's interesting to know. Once DS1 had got it, he didn't really need a lot more help. This little guy is very different.
DD1 was sooo touchy that most ST was just too much for her. She had the finest line between OT and UT also. So, maybe she just conditioned me to be the worst BW ever, lol. But, yes. I'll admit I do a lot of APing for J... Mostly bc it's easier. She's actually able to settle, I just don't often give her the opportunity except in the middle of the night where I tend to back off unless she's really fussing. Please, don't follow my example! haha But what I've found most helpful for both girls is a good solid routine so that's what I tend to focus on. I think IS is important, but depending on the baby or if you have really deep rooted props, it's not the end all be all, yk?
Sorry, I'm sure that was not helpful. Just an honest response.
-
No, that was really helpful, thank you. It's a fine line between 'good enough' and torturing yourself trying to get the holy grail, yk?
-
Yes, that's definitely how I feel this time around. I tortured myself enough with DD1's sleep and decided very early on I wouldn't torture myself this time. Their little phases pass so quickly too. Once you think you've found something, they're on to something else!