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SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: sara_haf on June 16, 2016, 20:17:13 pm

Title: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 16, 2016, 20:17:13 pm
This is my first post and I really hope someone can help me or at least offer some kind words of encouragement. My LO is 10 weeks on Saturday. She's my second and I believe a touchy/spirited baby. I love the BW books and my LO was on EASY from Day 1 and did amazingly. We used to simply swaddle her, give her a cuddle and down in the basket she went (awake) and off to dreamland she'd go. At around 5 weeks she started waking up frequently from naps (every 15 mins or so) but would settle herself after a mantra cry. This then turned into not being able to get her to set off to sleep and so 5 long weeks ago I decided to throw myself into a nap routine. We moved her basket in the nursery and I began the 4 S's. She took a few days to get the idea but was able to get off BUT has for 5 long weeks woken up after 20/30minutes consistently. I am VERY careful of watching her sleepy signs, so much so that my family accuse me of hovering a bit too much but she will usually get tired/fussy after an hour so if there's no yawn I look out for anything from a nose rub so flailing limbs to scratching face or just generally not happy even after a change of scene. No one can accuse me of missing a window as I'm always so conscious of her not getting overtired (on the other scale I have also tried extending her awake time but that's even worse) but she still wakes up early from every single nap. I tried the W2S method for 8 whole days and this worked probably twice in extending to 50 mins but it's reverted back. Now my problem these days is not getting her to sleep (I can shh pat for about 5-7  mins) its that getting her BACK to sleep after she wakes is the hardest thing ever!!! I always wait by the door to see if they are mantra cries but once she gets going I will pick her up to calm her down and then begin shh pat in the moses basket. She will ALWAYS seem sleepy which is why I persist but it's almost as if she fights the ssh pat and squirms every few mins trying to turn herself on her back from her side. I've tried letting her do this but she gets more angry. I can ssh pat  for 5 mins, 7 mins, 20mins (even did 30 whole mins once) she just constantly wakes up and I almost find myself just holding her down gently (if her moro reflex that seems to wake her up). I find myself trying to re-settle her for a sleep for up to a whole HOUR before the next feed is due. I've only been successful in getting her back TWICE and it's physically exhausting me. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?!?!?

I have a 4 year old and I HAVE to do the school run in the morning so she will always have one nap in the car/pram. I can't help this, I have another child so I have to get out but of course she will always sleep on the go (but does drift in and out). Of course in an ideal world she'd have every single nap at home but that's not possible. I have been nothing but consistent when we are in the house in my wind down routine and when she wakes up I do the exact same thing (re-swaddle, sit, calm her down and ssh pat) but she just fights it and will sleep for a few mins at a time before squirming. Whenever I then leave the room she'll start again so I've started staying in there longer but it doesn't make a difference. I can't extend naps and I can't get her back to sleep. I know she's tired because if I leave her on my shoulder a few seconds after calming I can see her start to dose off. Likewise doing the ssh pat after she wakes, she will try and fall asleep, she just can't get into the deep sleep after she's woken. I've tried just getting her up  but she's cranky and then that throws off my EASY schedule for the whole day because she then gets tired and fussy and reverts to wanting to eat so I persist in trying to re-settle her until the next feed.

Her EASY routine is currently:

7.30am - E (BF)
8.15 - battle with sleep until 10 (30 mins at most)
10 - E (BF)
11 - 1 battle with sleep (30 mins at most)
1 - E (formula)
2 - 4 battle with sleep (30 mins at most)
4 - E (BF)
5-5.45 battle with sleep (20 mins at most)
6.15 E (BF)
FAST ASLEEP WITH NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER AT 7PM EVERY NIGHT. No shh pat required, she just goes down!!!
11pm DF (formula)
Wakes between 3-5am for feed - back down until 7.30 after.

I find that her average awake time is 1 hour apart from waking first thing in the morning when she yawns after 45 mins.

PLEASE PLEASE can anyone help me. I'm doing everything by the book and have been so consistent and persistent but it's not getting any easier. The only thing left to try when she's 12 weeks is PU/PD.


Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 17, 2016, 12:39:03 pm
Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

Sorry to hear you've been struggling with your DDs naps.  Nights are looking brilliant though :)

Is it that first nap at 8.15 which is the car/pram nap for the school run?  Could you expand a little on what happens during that nap in terms of how you are trying to resettle after the 30 mins nap - I'm just wondering if you might be better off accepting a CN for nap 1 with the school run being in there and then looking to get the rest of the naps extended?  What do you think?
If anything that first nap looks like it's coming far too early for her age, I know you are seeing some tired signs early on but perhaps this is because she is very well slept over night rather than because she is ready for a nap.  A time at this age would be around 1hr 20 rather than 45 mins
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

With the other naps, I see you have been doing everything to try to extend and sleep train gently.
When she has done a 30 min nap are you counting her A time from when she wakes or when you call the nap finished (ie if she sleep from 8.15 to 8.45 are you counting A time from 8.45 or from 10am?)?  it looks from your EASY times that you are counting from 10am to 11am but your LO has by this time been awake much much longer, this could lead to OT and the following nap being short due to OT jolts.  I know sometimes people post the EASY they are trying to achieve rather than what is actually happening so it would be helpful if you could clarify. We like to see the real times here as we do not have very much else to go on.  You could re-post with the real times if they are different to the above (and perhaps also helpful to note in there where the school drop off and pick up is so that we can see where there is need to car/pram nap).

The other thing I wonder if there is any sign or symptom of reflux or silent reflux?  it seems she is able to get sleepy very quickly when upright at your shoulder but finds it very hard or uncomfortable in the cot.  Have you had any suspicions of reflux at all?
Have you tried raising her sleeping area to an angle with a safe sleep wedge or cot blocks?

I really hope someone can help me or at least offer some kind words of encouragement.
You will certainly have a hand to hold and lots of support here.  We might not be able to 'fix' sleep magically but sometimes it's just helpful to know you are not alone isn't it?  You are certainly not alone.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 17, 2016, 18:16:08 pm
thank you so much for replying. It's so nice to have someone who is just willing to offer an ear and try and help. Im so so grateful to you. Ok so here's how today went...Ill be VERY specific as instructed.

NO SCHOOL RUN TODAY AS DAUGHTER WAS IN CHILD MINDER.

7am woke up and I grabbed a shower quickly while my husband had the baby as I wouldn't have the chance otherwise. BF at 7.10. Yawned twice by 8am. Took her into nursery and began nap ritual (blinds shut, lullaby playing while I swaddle, white noise on when lullaby finished and then stand (can't sit) with baby on shoulder for 5 mins patting back (mantra cries). I put her down and patted her chest. She seemed quite happy so I stepped away. She made noises/mantra cries until 8.30 (v.v.rarely self settles like this but if she does its always for 1st nap). So looking at that her A time is right isn't it?? However, usually I do have to do ssh-pat so if thats the case maybe I should keep her awake until 1 hour 10 and then put her down with 10 min ssh-patting??

Slept from 8.30 - 9. Went up and tried patting chest - cried so picked her up and settled on shoulder by ssh-patting then transferred to cot and continued ssh-pat (on side) for 10 mins and ACTUALLY managed to get her back to sleep (!!!!!!!! never happens) but she woke again after 25 mins. Went up and tried the same thing from 9.45 - 10.05 (she would fall asleep in cot for a few mins with me doing ssh-pat but cries/squirms) every few mins. Got her up and fed her (BF) at 10.10.

Awake til 11.15 and I think (she's been up since 9.45 really) so took her up at 11.15. Did wind down routine and WEIRDLY after 5 mins of standing and patting I put her down and she turned her head and went straight to sleep!! weird! BUT she woke up after 25 mins....I went back up and picked her up to calm her as she was hysterical and once calm (after patting on back) continued shh pat in cot.....continued this from 11.45 - 12.30 with her falling asleep for a few mins at a time and waking up.....tried to continue shh-pat for up to 15 mins but she just squirmed/woke up/cried before falling back asleep did ssh-pat all over again but again only settled/slept for a few mins at a time. At this point I started to sob by the side of the moses basket (in the dark room which is my prison at the moment) and as I was meeting a friend for lunch I got her up and got in the car. I NEEDED TO GET OUT! She fell asleep from 12.50- 1.10 in the car when I arrived at my destination. Fed her her formula bottle. Put her in pram at 2.10 as she started to cry/fuss and she slept from 2.10 - 3.20 until I got her in the car and woke up briefly but fell back asleep until 4pm (I got stick in awful traffic). Got her home and woke her up at 4.05 and fed her (BF). Now because I knew she had actually slept from 2-4, I thought she could hold her own for the 1hr 20 mins. She started fussing and rubbing her eyes/nose at 5.10. I tried changing scenery but she was really cranky. Plus I thought by the time I GET her to sleep she may have done 1 hour 20 mins anyway (isnt that the goal A time until eyes closed??). Anyway so I swaddled her and did wind down routine and continued shh-pat in cot at 17.15 but on her chest to see if shed settle. She didnt so I tipped her to her side slightly and she settled immediately at 17.18 (after yawning twice) continued this for 7 mins and she slept for 30 mins exactly. Got her up and husband had her until I fed (BF) at 6.15pm (always very grumpy until the last feed). She fed for 30 mins (usually does between 20-25 in day but always longer this time). Then gave her a massage, changed into PJs and then swaddled her and lay her down (no white noise) at 7 and fell asleep.
So in reality her eating was at 7.10/10.10/1.10/4.10/6.15 and shell have a DF at 11pm (formula).
QUESTIONS:
1)   Do I get her up after waking after 20-30mins or try and re-settle until next feed? I always thought according to books that you re-settle til next feed. If I get her up this throws off EASY/eating schedule. -Or do I get her up wait until next feed (even though shell be totally unhappy/grumpy) feed and then probably by then she would have been up for her A time. So really shed be feeding then going down and probably feeding much earlier than 3 hours (especially if she STILL wakes up early from the second nap because only half an hour would have passed since her last feed and putting her down if you know what I mean).
2)   If she IS falling back asleep, albeit for a few mins at a time for the remainder of the nap after waking, does this count as A time?? As Ive been counting A time from when I eventually get her up because she is in and out of sleep (so technically not awake) after waking after 30  mins.
3)   Do I put her down at 1 hour 20 mins or put her down at 1 hour 10 mins bearing in mind it might take 10 mins for her to fall asleep??
4)   Apart from yawns in the morning she very rarely yawns (apart from when Im trying to put her to sleep) so what other sleepy signs should I look out for at this age?? Or should I focus more on the 1 hour 20?
5)   If she feeds any time after 3.30am she will usually sleep until 7.30am. If its before she could wake up any time from 6 7am (7am mostly). However should I be waking her at 7am every morning or letting her sleep? Given how horrendous the day is Im reluctant to wake her at 7 but do wake her at 7.30 as I feel this is late enough.
NOTES
*Shes never had a dummy nor have I ever rocked/nursed/fed to sleep. She has only ever had naps in the moses basket or pram and one or two in the baby bjorn (when Im somewhere where I cant take the pram if out and about with daughter).
*No signs/concerns of reflux as shes always settled each night and throughout night in pram with no issue and initially for naps. The prob is when she wakes from naps.
*I feel like I have to use the white noise in the day to muffle the sounds of the house VERY loud 4 year old and parents/in laws up all the time and VERY loud barky dog. As we only get 30  min naps I want to make sure any noise doesnt disturb her.
*When she wakes in the middle of the night after a BF, I change her nappy in the dim light, burp her and re-swaddle and she settles within about 10 mins by herself.
*I feel like Im trying SO SO HARD to do the best for my baby and teaching her the right set of skills and I know weve done well with the bed time routine and at night so I just feel so disheartened that despite my very best efforts its been so difficult.

Thank you in advance for your reply. You dont know how grateful I am!!!!
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: MJ&N on June 17, 2016, 18:55:01 pm
Hi! My baby is 7mo and we are just now getting to a place where sleep is not a battle.

For your own sanity, I'd suggest having at least one, maybe two naps a day in the sling, or the car or the pram. Life is likely to be disrupted by school holidays soon and having her nap on the go might make your summer break feel lighter for all of you. My 8yo and then 4mo and I went to Norway at Easter to see friends, and it was a godsend having him sleep in the sling.

Likewise I'd look into a more ergonomic sling, if your baby bjorn is one of the older style ones.

We have done one, maybe two naps a day at home, actively working on sleep training since my baby was three months old. Yes it has taken a while to get there, but we now have naps where he will settle himself and extend into the next sleep cycle, and I've enjoyed him in the meantime. I've spent many a nap holding him, reading a book or playing on my phone, or even just cuddling him, and I don't regret a second of it.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 17, 2016, 19:09:33 pm
Hey :)

I can see you're still on-line, maybe reading around the boards, maybe eagerly awaiting a reply.  Either way, I thought I'd drop by and just let you know I've read through your post but will likely read through again tomorrow.  Nothing is leaping out at me right now but something might when I re-read.

What I do want to say though is, I am a big believer in sleep training, it is so helpful for baby and parents and I consider it a gift you give to your baby, the gift of sleep and confidence. It is often hard hard work though and if it is getting you down maybe you need to step back a bit?  Independent sleep is a gift but Mummy's health is a vital necessity.  I've been there with the tears in the dark too and I have also (through certain phases) made the decision to accept a short nap and get my LO up so that I am not trapped in a dark room patting the day away.  There are times (maybe now is the time for you?) when it may be better to put sleep training to one side and just get on with the day, get out into the fresh air and see some light.  Your health and sense of well being is way more important than sleep training.
If you decide to just go with the short naps for now and get yourself out and about please do not see it as any kind of failure. You clearly have a very good understanding of BW and the EASY routine and were successful very early on with your older child, but this little baby is a different child, a different character and your family situation is different now too with having two to care for.
it seems your DD is well able to go to sleep independently or almost independently for most sleeps which is a huge achievement at this age - she is not going to lose that ability because you get her up after a short nap.
Linking sleep cycles is where she is struggling and you might choose to pick one nap per day to 'work on' this.  If so then pick the same nap each day, one where you will almost always be home, lets say for instance always nap 2 (ie not switching by working on nap 1 one day then nap 2 the next).

Hope this helps you for now. I'll try to answer your questions tomorrow x
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 17, 2016, 19:49:10 pm
Thank you for your support and kind words. That's what I've been doing once a day to be honest is not "battling". I need to get out once a day for my sanity and know that she will sleep in the pram/car so at least I know she's had one decent nap (for her sake) and I've had a break (for my sake). So usually two naps is my limit and I tend to get out (with my daughter if I haven't had to do the school run if parents are on hand to help). Yes you're right, the absolute issue is the transition from sleep cycles during the day and I think some confusion with OT and perhaps UT on my part and awake times. It would be useful to know your advice and How to adjust EASY if I do get her up from a short nap and how to work out A times in that situation or if I do persist and try and get her back. I think tomorrow morning I will try stretching her first nap out to say 1 hour 10 mins after waking (even if yawns at 45 min) then put her down and she should be asleep with ssh-pat within 10 mins rather than seeing if she'll settle herself (as that could take half an hour making her then OT) and seeing if that helps. Maybe trying to nail the first nap of the day at the right time might help the whole day over time. I'd be grateful for your input on the questions as I'm just not sure of the correct thing to do. I agree though that sleep training is so important and my 4 year old is and always has been a beautiful sleeper and goes down without any fuss from 7-7 and has done so for years because she learned early on. I just need to accept that my second might just take a bit longer. Thank you again for your support. It's so lovely to have someone "be on the same page" as me as my family don't really understand what I'm trying to achieve. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you. Xx
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 18, 2016, 08:12:09 am
I'll see if I can answer your questions.

1)   Do I get her up after waking after 20-30mins or try and re-settle until next feed? I always thought according to books that you re-settle til next feed. If I get her up this throws off EASY/eating schedule. -Or do I get her up wait until next feed (even though shell be totally unhappy/grumpy) feed and then probably by then she would have been up for her A time. So really shed be feeding then going down and probably feeding much earlier than 3 hours (especially if she STILL wakes up early from the second nap because only half an hour would have passed since her last feed and putting her down if you know what I mean).
OK, you can continue to re-settle until the next feed and yes this is in the BW books.  I call this "full on" training and often with slightly older LOs it can really help to establish a good routine and get things on track in a shorter time but it is often hard work for parents.  Here at the forums we often go a bit gentler than that and don't go quite so "full on", partly because as Mums we know it is exhausting, that we need to get out for our sanity, or that there are other LOs to be cared for and that we jst can't spend all day in a dark room patting the day away.  We often suggest one or two naps in the cot - and mainly to look for a way to compromise everyone's needs which was also what Tracy said in the books, we respect baby and baby's need but also look to the rest of the family's needs too.
If you get her up from a short nap you do not need to fee immediately.  If E is usually 3hrs apart you can probably stick to that time or reduce the E time a little, often LOs will go the 3hrs anyway even if not asleep.  You do not need to feed straight after sleep, the EAS routine is more about not feeding to sleep (making a prop)  rather than always feeding on wake up.  So you might see EASAEAS rather than EAS.  Whilst the routine can look a bit messy it is possible to get through the day like this and even to establish something of a regular routine even though the naps are short.  I did this from 3.5-5.5  months during my DS's short nap phase.  If a nap is approaching do bring E earlier to avoid feeding to sleep, or if it can't be avoided rouse her as you put her into her cot and say "I'm putting you in your bed now so you can sleep properly" the message will go in and she iwll be less surprised to wake in a different environment to the one she fell asleep in.

2)   If she IS falling back asleep, albeit for a few mins at a time for the remainder of the nap after waking, does this count as A time?? As Ive been counting A time from when I eventually get her up because she is in and out of sleep (so technically not awake) after waking after 30  mins.
If she's nodding on and off I'd class it as S and count A from when she properly wakes.  Some people calculate it as half time but I never did.  Instead if there has been a short nap I'd reduce her next A by about 10 or 15 mins.  When Tracy did the full on training she did keep them up the full A time and in many cases this can help LO be really tired ready for the next nap but perhaps more so with an older baby.  With a young one it is likely to cause OT and a difficulty in relaxing fully for sleep.

3)   Do I put her down at 1 hour 20 mins or put her down at 1 hour 10 mins bearing in mind it might take 10 mins for her to fall asleep??
Build in any wind down time needed to aim to have her asleep at 1hr 20.  Some LOs like a full 20 min WD, mine did not he would have protested loudly.  In the very early days with mine he took the full 20 min to nod off but once he'd cracked self settling he only wanted a very short WD, anything longer made him resist.  If she only needs/wants 5 or 10 mins that's fine.  If she goes down more easily and falls to sleep faster with a shorter patting rather than a longer self settling mantra then I'd go with the patting and aim to have stopped patting *just* before she nods off - which is probably what you are already doing as I think you know BW methods and 'get' the sleep training aspect.

4)   Apart from yawns in the morning she very rarely yawns (apart from when Im trying to put her to sleep) so what other sleepy signs should I look out for at this age?? Or should I focus more on the 1 hour 20?
It may be helpful for a while to watch the clock.  Mine just fussed when he was ready for sleep.

5)   If she feeds any time after 3.30am she will usually sleep until 7.30am. If its before she could wake up any time from 6 7am (7am mostly). However should I be waking her at 7am every morning or letting her sleep? Given how horrendous the day is Im reluctant to wake her at 7 but do wake her at 7.30 as I feel this is late enough.
Waking her at 7.30 is fine.  We do not run strictly on 7am starts on the forums, and honestly I am super jealous of your WU time :)  Mine early woke for ever!

*I feel like I have to use the white noise in the day to muffle the sounds of the house VERY loud 4 year old and parents/in laws up all the time and VERY loud barky dog. As we only get 30  min naps I want to make sure any noise doesnt disturb her.
There's no problem using white noise. Many people here find it really useful.

*I feel like Im trying SO SO HARD to do the best for my baby and teaching her the right set of skills and I know weve done well with the bed time routine and at night so I just feel so disheartened that despite my very best efforts its been so difficult.
You've managed to get the nights settled really really quickly. Try to focus more on your achievements as you are doing brilliantly!  There is a chance that as you were so successful with the day time routine with your first Lo that your expectations have been the same with this LO.  You know all babies are different and your two children are going to have totally different personalties, ability to nap well from a very young age is just going to be one of the differences between your two LOs, it's not your fault or lack of trying, try not to beat yourself up about it.  It really doesn't mean this is how it will be for ever.
There are so so many mums here who would be amazed by your achievement so far, just self settling is a big step at this age even if she is not yet transitioning alone (or at all).

I do wonder if a raised cot may help...it might be something to consider trying.  It is not a sleep prop, it just helps them to be more comfortable if there is any chance of silent reflux.  It could be that you are not seeing symptoms other than inability to sleep on a flat surface.

Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 18, 2016, 09:03:36 am
Thank you!! I'm going to read over this carefully this morning and reply later but in the meantime to update on this morning's nap - she was up and feeding at 7.30am. Although she yawned at 8.15am we kept her up but she kept yawning and did if 4 times by 8.30am. I know she can go longer but surely we can't ignore 4 yawns? anyway, my husband put her down at 8.30 and didn't need to do ssh-pat as  she was really relaxed and she went down happily and made noises until 8.45 and we THINK (hard to know as the nursery door was closed) she fell asleep at 8.45 because that's when the noises stopped. She slept for 35 mins. My husband is trying to re-settle her. So should we have waited a little longer again despite the 4 yawns?

Also how do I work an EASY routine when she wakes up at 6/6.30am because presumably the day has started by then. If she feeds every 3 hours she could feed at 3pm and go down for a sleep at say 4.15ish and only sleep for 30 mins meaning she's up at 4.45pm. Would I then try and re-settle her an hour later at 5.45pm? If I wait longer then this goes passed 6pm and a catnap would be too late by then. she'll only ever do 20/30 mins this time of night anyway but if she doesn't go back down after 4.45 she'd be up until 7pm meaning she'd be up WAY too long or should I, on those days try and feed a little earlier to try and get back on track for the 4pm feed?

Thanks.

X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 18, 2016, 18:17:34 pm
Also how do I work an EASY routine when she wakes up at 6/6.30am
Is this common? I thought from what you'd previously said that her nights were generally 7pm - 7/7.30am?

I actually wouldn't link the sleep and eat times together.  As she is only sleeping about 30 mins it seems there isn't going to be much chance for her to get too hungry by sleeping past a feed time.  Either feed just before the nap or wait until after the nap. If it's near the end of the day anyway I'd just get her up after the short nap and feed then move on to BT routine.  If there is less than 3hrs between E at the end of the day it doesn't matter - I always fed at whatever time was needed during the day and then at BT whenever that fell regardless of how long it had been since he last ate.  Many can cluster feed in the evening anyway so will take a feed at less than the 3hrs.

I know you said you tried W2S before but it may be worth another try on that first nap, I'd look for about 1hr to 1hr 10 on the A time then go in around 25 mins after she nods off and begin patting or hover literally a centimetre away from her to begin patting the second she rouses to see if you can get the resettle patting in before she fully wakes and calls out.
I probably wouldn't try on every nap simply because you sound like you need a bit of a break by now.  But like I said in the previous post, choose a nap which you can 'work' on every day, don't chop and change which nap you work on, babies make habits so the changing doesn't help and consistently is best.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 18, 2016, 19:28:09 pm
No it's not common but can happen if she wakes say at 2.30am she'll only go until 6 so I just wondered how to tweak in that situation. She woke at 5.20am this morning and I can't say that she was crying very much at all, maybe if I left her she would have gone back but I knew that if I fed her she'd go back down until 7-7.30, maybe that's the wrong thing to do but it just means she gets more sleep that way.

Today was a disastrous day. My husband (who is wonderful and supportive, I'm so lucky) was on hand to give me a break. He only managed to settle her after the first waking for 5-10 min intervals before I fed her. For the next nap he then took her on a long walk with the dog but she was in and out every 15/20 mins so I don't think she got the deep sleep. The 3rd nap was the worst - went down like a dream but woke after 15 mins!! It took 45 mins to re-settle only for her to wake after 20 mins by which point she was due a feed. I even thought right I'll keep my hands on her to try and settle through the jolts in the hope I could settle her beyond the 20 min mark into deep sleep and was even prepared to keep holding passed 30 mins to see if I could help her transition but she just woke up crying her eyes out at 20 mins (no jolt, just cried) and it was all a bit hopeless. My poor poor baby, I just feel so sorry for her that she has such a hard time.

It's my birthday tomorrow so my husband is hell bent on getting us all out so we're off to a farm for the whole day (probably from 9 - 5) so that will be nice and at least I know she'll nap through the day. My plan of action then on Monday is to:
*raise the moses basket (I may just put something under the legs rather than the mattress) as I don't have a wedge.
*wait the full 1hour 10/15 for first nap of day and then shh-pat to get her to sleep by 1hour 20 and try W2S again.

Thank you again for your support. I know I'm my own worst enemy, no one needs to tell me that. I'm a perfectionist and I'm always hard on myself, have always been like that with life and work. Some days I cope better than others and I'm just trying to take it a day at a time.

I came across TH's interview earlier and it said if baby wakes up early from a nap then you feed and then keep them up for 10 minutes - half an hour and then go for the nap. Is it worth trying that? Also if say by 3-4 months I've still not extended naps and getting her back to sleep (Which is the main problem) STILL isn't working using ssh-pat (which I've been doing since 5 weeks) can I then try PU/PD to try and re-settle after early wake up?

You said that you have personal experience with short naps. What worked or changed for you and your LO eventually? Did they just "outgrow it"?

x
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 19, 2016, 07:21:27 am
Happy Birthday!! Enjoy your day out, it sounds lovely :)

No it's not common but can happen if she wakes say at 2.30am she'll only go until 6 so I just wondered how to tweak in that situation. She woke at 5.20am this morning and I can't say that she was crying very much at all, maybe if I left her she would have gone back but I knew that if I fed her she'd go back down until 7-7.30, maybe that's the wrong thing to do but it just means she gets more sleep that way.
No I don't think that's the wrong thing, I think if she'll go back to sleep after a feed that's absolutely the right thing!
Have you tried feeding at 6am and putting her back too?

Many LOs this age don't have totally regular routines so if she would feed at 6am and go back maybe wake her at 7.30/8 depending on when she fell asleep.

I came across TH's interview earlier and it said if baby wakes up early from a nap then you feed and then keep them up for 10 minutes - half an hour and then go for the nap. Is it worth trying that?
Yes absolutely :)
To be honest I'm still scratching my head a bit at why your LO is waking - we don't have magic wands here and LOs *do* take time to learn to sleep, but even so, when I see that you've been doing pretty much everything you possibly can to teach her to sleep and she's learned to self settle it does have me a little baffled as to why she is not transitioning even with help from you and/or Daddy.

Also if say by 3-4 months I've still not extended naps and getting her back to sleep (Which is the main problem) STILL isn't working using ssh-pat (which I've been doing since 5 weeks) can I then try PU/PD to try and re-settle after early wake up?
PU/PD is a last resort method, we generally don't advise it for LO under 6 months although Tracy had a LO of 4 months in her example in the book.  To be honest I am not a great fan except as a real "last resort", the shush/pat method does involve picking up, soothing until calm and then putting down again, but the "PUPD" method involves picking up and then putting down after a timed period regardless if LO is still crying (then picking up again), it can involve a lot of crying and therefore a lot of calorie burning so we usually avoid it until LOs are older.  PUPD is a useful teaching method in the right situation, TBH in your case I really don't see how it would help to "teach" her to stay asleep...she is already fabulously managing to self settle at nap and bed time.  Obviously it is your decision, I'm just giving my thoughts and those which are generally accepted across the BW forums.
Let's see how things go.  The incline on the moses basket may help, let's see.


You said that you have personal experience with short naps. What worked or changed for you and your LO eventually? Did they just "outgrow it"?
For us it was the 4 month regression which came early at 3.5 months.  4-6 months is a common time for short napping but my DS did his from 3.5 - 5.5 months.  Two or three things helped in the end (or maybe more!):
1. medication for silent reflux.  In truth he must have been suffering a long time but I was not familiar with silent reflux, the doc said he was okay even when I did begin to suspect reflux and ask for help and it took time (several weeks) to get a referral to a paediatrician who diagnosed within minutes and put him on medication to control the acid and reduce the pain.
2. a longer A time (I had been reducing his A due to short naps, he did better on a longer A)
3. age and development (it's called the 4 month regression because it is a common time for LOs day sleep to go off track, often improving at 6 months)
4. the day he finally napped 2hrs again (he'd been doing 40 min naps for many weeks by that point and I feared his 2hr nap had gone for ever!) I was in the bedroom with him.  I thought he did not know I was there as I had left as usual before he nodded off and i had returned when he was asleep so he hadn't seen me...but later I did wonder if just being in the room had helped to keep him relaxed enough to transition again. Some say a baby's breathing and heart rate is regulated by a parent's presence, perhaps this was the case for us.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: MJ&N on June 19, 2016, 17:52:49 pm
Some babies (mine!) just do short nap until a certain point. I remember being overjoyed when I could get him to have a long nap suddenly, and that it only happened in the sling.

Part of the 4 month regression is the sleep cycle maturing. For some things go haywire, for us it was an improvement. Suddenly the jolts faded and I didn't need to work so hard to get him to nap.

So maybe just wait, persist with getting her to self settle and let nature do its thing.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 20, 2016, 13:43:28 pm
Unfortunately my LO didn't do well on the road yesterday as we got stuck in traffic on the way there/back so sleep was disturbed and off all day  :-[ but I have been thinking lots about this potential reflux. I always thought it was when a baby continually cried before/after feeds and violently sick but when I read about silent reflux she MAY(?) have it. She constantly bobs on and off the boob from the word go, pretty much every 30-60 seconds for 20 mins. She does this from the start of every feed at every feed. Her poo is a greenish colour and probably about two of her feeds she sicks a little back up (quite thick/curdled like). Yesterday and this morning she was really upset while
Feeding and when I woke her at 7.30 I picked her up then laid her on the bed to get a bib and she was sick all over the bed (clear/thin) and that was after the last feed at 4am. I suppose all these things could be explained by other things but with the short naps does it sound feasible?? I rang the HV and she said it's possible and that maybe my baby just doesn't "need" much sleep which is rubbish as logic says 20/30 mins isn't restorative/restful but she told me to try and cut out for 4 days spicy foods, citrus and dairy and see if that helps. What do you think?

Can I also check if I did W2S right this morning? So first nap she was asleep at just under 1hr20. I went in at 25 mins and hovered, when she began to stir at 30 min I lightly patted her chest. This didn't work at all and she was wide awake and crying. For the first time I decided to get her up (at 9.15) She was miserable until I fed her at 9.50 (7.30 first feed). By the time I was done it was time to put her down again and after a little trouble I got her down at 10.50. She slept only for 20 mins. I picked her up settled her and put her down while holding her "jolting" arm (left always does!) and patted her chest. I managed to get her to sleep and decided to try and "hold" her passed her jolts as opposed just patting after she had them. We got passed the 30 min mark to 40 mins and she woke (had been holding her arm the whole time lightly). She woke up crying but moving her head from side to side. I continued to hold her arm and pat her chest with the other and eventually she went back to sleep 5/10 mins later around 11.05 and I continued to hold/pat. She squirmed probably every 10 mins but didn't wake up until after 30 mins I could see she was in a deep sleep. I left the room for the last 20 mins and she woke up bang on time for the next feed at 12.50. Now in my book she was down in bed/Moses basket from 10.50-12.50. Despite waking up (twice at 20/40min Mark) do we consider that a mild success/improvement? Am I not creating dependence on me being there to help her through the jolts or is that how I'm going to teach her short term to settle through the various stages? Obviously I can't do that for every nap but if that is correct I could try and do one nap a day.

Thanks, look forward to your guidance.

X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 20, 2016, 22:13:43 pm
Since the beginning of this thread (but it's just a few days!) I have suspected your LO may have silent reflux.
The things you describe now sound even more so to me but I must point out I am not a medical professional.  You can ask for specific support with reflux on the CRC board
Colic, Reflux, & Crying
And/or about the elimination diet there or on the BF board
Breast Feeding
Both of those places will have people more experienced than me.

My DS did have silent reflux and your description sound very much the same. I was formula feeding so I did not do an elimination diet (but 4 days does not sound long enough to me so I suggest getting some support for this specifically on one of the other boards).  My DS improved very much on meds.

WRT the extended nap.  Sounds like you did great :)
I would say you were "holding through the jolts" which is not exactly a W2S but the info is on the same FAQ page as this is a very similar method to W2S.  You can try for 3 days and hold of day 4 to see if she manages alone, if not then continue day 5,6,7 and hold off again. It's worth looking to see if LO can manage a transition alone every few days.  It is not considered dependence on you as the plan is not to be there for every nap for ever but to use this as a method to help in the short term.  Doing this for one nap per day would at least help her get a longer sleep.

Remember to incline the basket safely too - it might help with the possible reflux.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 29, 2016, 14:44:16 pm
So I went to the GP who was a bit useless and said it MAY be silent reflux but she wasn't sure and prescribed gaviscon. She said to try it for a month and see if it helps. No change so far after a week but we'll see. Meanwhile nothing has improved. If anything it got worse with my LO waking up after 10/15 mins randomly at random naps so WTS has been difficult given the wake times have been erratic. I really felt that once she woke I would be there pretty much holding her for the whole nap and once she'd move/stir I'd start tapping. I realised that she was probably now "needing" me there for the whole nap and I couldn't spend my days doing that. I've gone back to basics again and not been afraid to "let go" of her as she'll wake up anyway and I think she's doing a little
Better at settling herself so I'm going to wait and see if the 30 min wake times appear again and then try WTS. In the mean time today's nap, she did do 30 mins then I managed to re-settle her after a quick pick up and pat from me (took 5 mins) BUT has been waking up every 10/15 mins for the last 50 mins but I haven't had to go in, she's settled herself again after a few minutes. My Q is DO FITFUL NAPS COUNT???? say she does that for the whole hour and then starts to cry to the point I need To intervene,  do I then get her up or do I keep trying to get her back to sleep? It's so hard to know WHAT A QUALITY NAP LOOKS LIKE. Does it mean perfectly still for 1.5/2 hours? What should I be aiming for? As I'm typing, she's woken but she's just sucking her fingers and not crying. I don't know whether she's awake or trying to self soothe!! How have I gone from knowing my baby so well to second guessing everything?! :-[ Thank you for your continued support. X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on June 30, 2016, 10:08:42 am
has been waking up every 10/15 mins for the last 50 mins but I haven't had to go in, she's settled herself again after a few minutes.
Well, to look at the positive side, she is self settling which is great!! :)  That is a skill and looks like you have been successful with your gentle and supportive training, giving her the confidence to self settle and nod off alone - well done you!!
It may not feel like an achievement as clearly napping for 30 mins and then waking every 10/15 mins throughout the hour is not what you want at all and doesn't exactly give you a chance to grab some Y time.  I imagine you are on pins wondering what to do.  hugs.

I really don't think that this is because you don't know your baby, there may be something else going on making it very hard to follow cues (such as possible silent reflux) plus your baby is still very  young and going through so much development, it takes lots of time to adapt to their changing needs and developing personality.
I do remember my LO doing this waking thing then nodding off then waking and gazing around him or just staring but not crying for help, he was a bit younger than your LO but it seemed to be an ability to just 'hang out' in the bed and self settle for dozing rather than a full proper nap.  Short term I don't think there is harm in it, it's great practise of SS if nothing else!

Gaviscon for infants is not the same as for adults, the infant stuff is basically just a thickener to help keep the milk down but without sorting out the acid that's there (other people explain this much better than I do).  Often docs want people to try a time on Gavi before looking further.  Mine also started on gavi, we did see some improvement but only for maybe a week or two and then worse again. Are you in the UK?  if you are then I would continue with the gavi for now as your doc has advised then go again (earlier than 4 wks if you feel necessary) and ask for a referral to a paediatrician.  it was only the paediatrician who could diagnose my DS.

WHAT A QUALITY NAP LOOKS LIKE. Does it mean perfectly still for 1.5/2 hours?
No not perfectly still for 2hrs.  Sleep cycles are generally 40 or 45 min long and LOs come out of deep sleep to light sleep, wake briefly (might not appear awake) and enter the next sleep cycle.  So you can expect a movement or murmur or mantra cry or sucking of fingers every 40 or 45 mins...they sometimes transition without any noise or movement so it may appear longer.  Adults do the same about 5 times per night, wake turn, go back to sleep, very normal and most of us don't remember it in the morning.

If your A times are quite normal (not drastically too long or too short) then I'd put the multiple waking down to either something developmental (ie just this week) or possible discomfort of reflux (although not enough to make her cry out).  Time may help to work out what but sometimes we never know why our LOs have a phase of this or that and they just come out of it and settle down again.  for now I would follow this fitful napping with an almost full A time, she doesn't appear so OT that she is upset.

hope this helps - hang in there
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on June 30, 2016, 14:45:07 pm
P.s same thing happened with today's naps. Woke up after 30 (will start w2s tomorrow). No outright crying just fussing/sucking hands/turning head from side to side and making noises as if she's pushing something out and falling in and out of sleep every 5 mins. She was yawning/rubbing eyes/nose whilst doing this. She did this for 25 mins. Then she slept for 20 mins solid but woke up crying very loudly (as if she was having a bad dream, that type of "out of nowhere" cry) but I put my hand on her chest she fell back to sleep straight away and. In total she was in her Moses basket for almost 2 hours. Apart from the hand on the chest briefly with the momentary big cry I she didn't need reassuring and was able to self soothe. So.....she had 30 mins sleep/25 mins fussing/20 mins sleep/woke up and cried for a moment and fell back asleep a few mins later then slept for another 30 mins til I had to wake her up (was a little late for feed as I wanted to let her sleep). She was able to be down for so long because at the 1hr 5 awake time mark previously she really seemed tired so I put her down and went to sleep v.easily within 5 mins.

Is this the process she's going through to learn to transition/be asleep for 1.5/2 hours?? or would you class that as unsuccessful because it's fitful? Is it a sign that she's learning/getting better??? I just don't know anymore!!
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on July 01, 2016, 12:05:57 pm
Sorry I didn't see your reply when I did my "p.s". Thank you for your message. It's so so nice to have someone to talk to, someone who understands what I'm trying to achieve and why and knowing that I'm not alone. The way the last 3 days has gone (I've dedicated these to nap times as my daughter has been with the childminder and the dog went on her holidays!) I don't think there's very much more I can do....I am now able to get my LO to sleep generally within her window (between 1hr 10-30(more like 1hr 30 first thing in the morning). If she doesn't fall straight to sleep she'll usually settle herself
Not long after. She has been waking at 30 (going in at 25 and gently rubbing her cheek, will try this for a few days at a time) but she has still been waking BUT she has NOT been crying out at all when she wakes. She has generally just been lying there either staring into space, having a little
Fuss or chewing her hands and sometimes had the odd 5/10
 Mins sleep in and out but generally tends to be mostly awake for the remaining hour of the nap but again just lies there and sometimes goes in and out until I go in for her feed time. Now if I'm
Able to settle her quickly for a nap, she's not crying out and does sometimes
Fall in and out there's not much more that I can do here is there to get her to sleep apart from stick at the W2S because I presume she is better "resting" quietly for the duration of the 1.5hr nap over actually being out of bed at the 30 min mark. suppose all I can hope for is that this is a learning process for her and she will eventually learn to sleep in that time or through the 30 min mark. Annoyingly though for her last nap of the day she has done 40
Mins the last 2 days and we've had to wake her as I don't let her sleep beyond 6.10 as she's usually back down by 7.15/7.30 so I know she CAN do it!! Also, I've found out that
The GP gave me the wrong dose for her weight of the gaviscon so I'm doubling it from now on and just
About to collect some more from the pharmacist.

X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on July 01, 2016, 13:29:11 pm
Hi there :)
Reading your "ps" it really sounds very positive.  I do think she is learning to self settle and really there is nothign you cna do to "force"her to sleep. It sounds to me like the times she is waking and all the actions etc (nose rubbing, head turning and such) are all part of self settling.  She is happy to hang out in her cot and feels safe and secure there which is wonderful. She knows when she calls out you will arrive and during those periods she has not need to call for you. she's fine.  This is a time Tracy speaks about in the BW books and warns us not to go rushing in too soon.
There *might* be a way to tweak her A times to help her be more able to sleep for more of that nap time rather than waking and hanging out but then again there may not.  You could try an additional 5-10 mins on the A time and see what effect it has for instance (don't base results on just one nap though, try for several days if you can).
Keep in mind that around 4 months the A time does increase and there is a more rapid increase between 4-6 months...it isn't all that far off, the time will fly!

Do you feel there is more calm since starting the gavi?  Your LO seems happy to hang out in her cot even if she is not sleeping where as I think before she was waking and crying out even though she had (quite a good development of) self settling skills.  or perhaps it just seems that way to me, you are a much better judge as to whether you feel it is helping.
If it is helping just keep an eye out for any further symptoms, sometimes gavi helps for a short while but not long term.  Just mentioning as I went through that myself with DS.
Pharmacists are often more easily contacted to talk to regarding dose so I would check with your pharmacist on the dose and be clear exactly what it ought to be for her weight and age.

It's so so nice to have someone to talk to, someone who understands what I'm trying to achieve and why and knowing that I'm not alone.
This is why I have stuck around for 5 years :)  The community here is so supportive and I learn so much here.  I arrived when my DS was about 4 months old and have never left! :)

Have a good day x
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on July 04, 2016, 13:22:28 pm
Hi, to be honest I really don't know if it's the gavi that's working. She seems a little better but I don't think that's what was contributing to the short naps. I really do believe, despite my best intentions that I was doing the shh-pat too long when she woke so that she would rely on me for whole nap. It's still a working progress and I'll just have to keep at it but the big change for me as been that I am no longer trapped in a dark nursery for hours on end each day. If my LO wakes up, I'm there for her but I'm able to just keep an eye on her by popping my head through the door and going in momentarily if I need to because really she just seems to mantra cry through most
Of her nap whilst drifting in and out of sleep so that allows me to potter around the house and clean/iron (silly I know but I wasn't able to do any of that before because I was either feeding or settling 24/7!) and importantly spend time with my 4 year old. So that's the biggest change - to my sanity! The way I'm trying to deal with short naps now is to be a little more flexible with the E times (given that she'll be stretching soon as she'll be 13 weeks this week) - e.g. Last night she slept from DF at 11pm until 5.50am. When she woke I picked her up and she settled quickly making me think she wasn't actually looking for food so I continued to settle her and she mantra cried and slept for around 10 mins from 6.30-6.40 at which point I got her up and she ate at 6.45. She was then asleep by 8 (as she was getting cranky because I think really she had been awake since 5.50 apart from
The 10 mins). She slept til 8.30 and then was in and out until 9.15 (no more
Than 5/10 min) but then slept from around 9.25 until I woke
Her at 10am. I figured being 15 min late with the feed was ok (??) because a) she'll be stretching feeds soon and b) it was better for her to have a decent stretch of sleep so that I could be confident she could have a full A time afterwards c) got me back on track to my usual routine of 7/10/1/4/6.30pm. Is that OK to do that with feeds if need to, that is to let her sleep by 15 mins or so if she's had a short nap and gets me back on track? I imagine I'll have some Q's about moving to a 3.5/4hr schedule in a few weeks, could I ask what board I post it on or can I keep it on this thread given that it's likely to be an issue for me dealing with the naps more than anything (I'm quite confident my LO will do well with stretching out the feeds). Regarding your comment about sticking around the forums, thank you and well done. I imagine you have kept countless women slightly more sane with your gentle but practical advice so thank you once again. X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Scottishmummy on July 05, 2016, 20:10:24 pm
Hi- creations asked someone to pop in as she's not available for a little bit.

Sounds like things are going better for you.

Yes it's fine to be flexible with the feed of the nap runs over a little bit.

Please do come back if you have any more questions or other issues.  Probably best to start a new thread for a new issue, either here or on EASY board depending on whether it is naps or the whole routine you want to ask about.

All the best to you & your LO.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on July 11, 2016, 09:13:47 am
Hi there
sorry I disappeared, I've been suffering with a bad back and couldn't sit at the computer.  Still sore but getting better.
I see you have another thread started so I just really wanted to explain my sudden disappearance and say I hope things are going better for you now xx

Thanks Scottishmummy for jumping in :) xx
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on July 13, 2016, 12:08:21 pm
Thanks both. Sorry to hear you've been poorly. I imagine it's been difficult to get much done with a sore back, poor you. Day time is still a working progress. Not much has changed. After improving a little last week in that I was able to get LO back to sleep after her 30 min wake up its gone back to normal in that I'm lucky if she gets another  10 mins after her 30 wake up and can fuss for the whole remaining hour but I figure an extra 10 mins is enough to see her through to her E/A time and I've just accepted that's what's happening for now. Despite the 30min&10extra min nap she is happy when I do get her up and can comfortably do 1hr20-30 A time and has about 3 times now woken at 7am (after stirring at various times and getting herself back to sleep) so that's great. Yes I posted briefly about wake up time and have been getting her up 7am. Thanks again and I'll be sure to update you of any major progress. Thanks and feel better. Xx
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on July 14, 2016, 09:16:37 am
Sorry to hear the naps are still short, but it's good to hear you are managing it and she's happy :)
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on July 14, 2016, 14:27:46 pm
So today has been interesting in that my LO has done 3 X 45min naps.....given that she's a serial 30 minute waker (for weeks and weeks) does that mean things are getting better or are 45min naps a sign of something else. Did your LO do this before his short naps improved? Her A times were a bit all over the place today as my husband put her down this morning but couldn't get her asleep until 1hr45 and then even though I asked him to try and get her back to sleep after she woke (at 45 min) as I had to collect my daughter from school he gave up and got her up early meaning that by the time she went down again she was at 1hr45 but for the third nap she was asleep by 1hr 25/30 as she was fussing. So unintentionally her A times have been extended today (1st/2nd) from 1hr30-1hr45. Do you think that's made a difference?? Should I try and replicate tomorrow or stick with 1hr30? She's 14 weeks on Saturday and hasn't been refusing any feeds/taking less and has been sleeping through til 7am for the last week or so (so actually sleeping better at night than ever before) So none of the classic signs she needs to transition BUT could it be that without those signs she is naturally ready for more A time, in which case do I move her to a 3.15 EASY and begin transitioning?? If it was the one off 45 min nap I probably wouldn't think anything of it but as all 3 of her naps today have been 45 mins it's making me think something may be up. What are your thoughts? Xx
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on July 15, 2016, 08:29:36 am
If it was me I'd see if she could go more like 2hrs (so between 1hr 45 and 2hr depending on mood) and would try for a full 2hrs before one of the naps (maybe first or second but not last as she will likely be more tired by the end of the day on short naps).

Increasing the A time does not always mean moving the E time. For those who take long naps it naturally extends the time between E as they are sleeping and will eat when they wake. For those with short naps or those who cannot yet go longer than 3hr between E it is perfectly possible to stick at a 3hr E time whilst still increasing the A enough to help LO nap well.
For instance mine could not go longer than 3hr between E until 6 months old with solids established between milk feeds, but he had a super long first A time, I just fitted E around the S when needed.

Did your LO do this before his short naps improved?
Mine had short naps of 40 mins and when he went longer it was after a good increase in A time.  It was probably a mix of developmental short naps plus the A time not being long enough for him.
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: sara_haf on July 23, 2016, 19:31:58 pm
Hi, I thought I'd update you after taking your advice. My LO will be 16 weeks a week today and has very naturally been stretching her A time to 1hr45 so recently I've been working on the first two A times and stretching those to 2 hours which she's done over about a week or so. Im now working on the rest and for the last few days shes been having 3 naps of varying lengths.

Thursday, I have to say today was a GREAT day in my book but I should qualify that with saying that the night before was HIDEOUS!! so I'm not sure if it's all linked in and she was catching up on sleep! She's been sleeping til 7am for about 2 weeks now after her 11pm DF but on Wednesday night woke up screaming at 10.20pm and then didn't settle until 12.30am then woke up again at 3am. I fed her (because she was hysterical and I thought she might be hungry but she really didnt take much breast milk from me) but then I couldn't settle her AT ALL until 5.30am!!!  :o then she was waking up every 10/15mins until 6.40. She started doing this around her 3 month growth spurt and that was a week early so I think shes going through her 4 month growth spurt a week early too. But then the rest of the day that followed was amazing in that her first nap (after 2 hours A time) was 1 hour 30 after a tiny grizzle at 45 mins (hasnt done this since she was newborn) but then her second nap she actually slept (without stirring once) for 2 hours 15!!!!!!! Again, hasnt done this since she was a newborn. I couldnt get over it! I dont know what was different that day or whether she was just getting used to the 2 hour A time. Unfortunately she was very unsettled at bed time and took a whole hour to go down but did sleep until her 11pm DF and all night after that. However, last night she woke up early again at 9.30pm and then again at 3am. So its a bit all over the place really!

I am (as much as broken naps allow me) to stretch all A times to 2 hours but my question is about the 4 hour EASY. QUESTION 1: If youre essentially missing out one feed wont baby then wake up in the night looking for that feed?? I havent noticed her actually taking less at any feeds but did feel like she could handle more A time and really with the broken naps, following a 4 hour EASY allows her a little bit more time to try and re-settle (e.g. I would have woken her to feed following 3 hour EASY even if she had only just fallen back asleep whereas because I know I have an extra hour to play with on 4 hour EASY it gives her the chance to have a longer stretch). As Ive been trying to follow 4 hour EASY, I have tried increasing the feeds by an ounce in the day (shes formula fed in the day) but as Ive described above, every night has been different despite trying to get to 4 hour EASY (1 night sleeping through and 2 waking throughout). QUESTION 2: If naps are a disaster, can you revert to a 3 or 3.5 hour EASY THAT DAY if need be and just be flexible or once you start going with the 4 hour should you try and stick to it? Its just that if she wakes early from a nap then Ive got to keep an eye on A times and that may clash with a later E time if Im trying to get her down again. I guess that's what you're alluding to in your last post but I just wanted to check whether it was ok to change it up every day. After all Tracy says a baby who needs to be on a 4 hour EASY who is on a 3 hour EASY will wake at night but as you know, having suffered with short naps sometimes you can't avoid feeding early!!
 
If it helps, the last 3 days have been like this.

WEDNESDAY NIGHT
Woke up early for DF at 10.20pm. didn't settle until 12.30am then woke up again at 3am. I fed her (because she was hysterical and I thought she might be hungry but she really didnt take much breast milk from me) but then I couldn't settle her AT ALL until 5.30am!!!  :o then she was waking up every 10/15mins until 6.40.

THURSDAY
Awake at 6.40
E 7
S 8.30 10.05
E 10.20
S 12 2.15 (had to wake her)
E 2.20
S 4.15 5
E 6.30
Bed 6.45 pm but took AGES and AGES to settle (probably because the last A time was 2 hours) but it just naturally fell like that plus she'd had the best nap for weeks and weeks before so I thought she'd be ok.
Slept til DF at 11pm slept all night
THIS WAS THE PERFECT DAY FOR US REALLY BEST ONE SINCE SHE WAS 5 WEEKS OLD!!!!!

FRIDAY
Awake on and off from 6.15-6.45
E 7
S 8.30 woke up after 40 mins and fussed on and off for 30 mins (with some intervention needed) but then fell back asleep for 1 hour 15 until I had to wake her at 11
E 11
S 1 but woke up at 30 mins having pooped (grrr!) but did manage to re-settle after a long time but only for 20 mins and gave up at 2.30
E 2.45
Had to go to a party with my older child and during the party and in the car on the way home she was out for count probably from around 4-6pm!!!
E 6.30
S 7.15
Woke early for DF at 9.30pm
Woke at 3am, grizzled and went back to sleep until 4am but woke for BF (took a good feed) and went straight back down (no issues) straight after until 6.30am.
SATURDAY
Awake at 6.30 eat at 7.
Down at 8.30 35 min nap..tried to re-settle until 10am  - really unsettled, fell asleep for 5 mins here and there. Got her up and fed her at 10.30. I had NO idea when I should put her down again because shed been awake on and off. I was meeting a friend for lunch and she was getting really fussy at 11.45 so I left and she fell asleep straight away in the car seat for 20 mins until I got to my destination. She woke up once I arrived but I managed to get her back and she slept for 1 hour 20 in the pram and I woke her at 2.30 (as it had been 4 hours). She was then awake (at a stretch) until 4.30 and fell asleep in the car again and had 35 mins. Now I really didnt know whether to wait until 6-6.30pm for a feed or give her a little when we arrived home. Shes never been too good at having A time without a feed first plus I figured as she woke up through the night last night Id try and tank her up so I gave her 2 oz at 5.15pm then BF at 6.30 and she was asleep by 7pm. Im hoping shell stay asleep til her DF as hubby is away!!

Am I going in the right direction, do you have any further advice/thoughts?

X
Title: Re: Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: creations on July 24, 2016, 08:06:59 am
Thursday, I have to say today was a GREAT day in my book but I should qualify that with saying that the night before was HIDEOUS!! so I'm not sure if it's all linked in and she was catching up on sleep!
Yes it looks all linked. I'd say she was making up for lack of sleep in the night. What you can take from this though is that if she is REALLY tired she WILL nap longer.  Don't be too afraid to increase A times if it helps her sleep longer, often times people are too afraid of OT and so don't get to the point of a really tried baby ready to sleep a good long nap.

I would have woken her to feed following 3 hour EASY even if she had only just fallen back asleep whereas because I know I have an extra hour to play with on 4 hour EASY it gives her the chance to have a longer stretch
Yes. basically if she is asleep she is likely to go longer between feeds but like I said in the previous message some LOs just can't get to 4hr E.  It's ok.  You don't need to wake her to feed unless your routine is going totally off track and you really really need to establish set times for a while. So if she sleeps longer and E is 3hr 15 or 3hr 45 or 4hr it's fine.  Another time in the day she might want to eat earlier/later, it's ok.
Mine didn't get to 4hr between milk feeds until 6 months and solids established between milk feeds.
You don't have to feed the moment she wakes if she is not hungry yet (so it might not be going back to 3hr E if she can go longer) but you don't have to make her wait 4hrs if she is hungry.

After all Tracy says a baby who needs to be on a 4 hour EASY who is on a 3 hour EASY will wake at night
I take this to mean if LO is having too short an A time in the day they can end up UT at night so might have UT NWs.
Tracy did say not all babies can go 4hrs between E at 4 months and some are 6 months when this is possible...so it is about adapting to your own LO.  The 4hr EASY is about feeding at 4hrly intervals but it also has the longer A times.

hope this helps. Sounds like you're doing well even with the terrible night sleep you had!