BabyWhispererForums.com
ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: FrankiesMom12 on June 20, 2016, 14:13:52 pm
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Hi All - I am completely at the end of my rope with my 6.5 month old. I feel like sleep is getting worse, not better and I'm in tears. We have several problems, and I'm not even sure where to start.
1. I have never been able to get on a true EASY with her. She does NOT want to eat when she first gets up, so I feel like our EASY is not achievable right from the start.
2. I can't seem to get her to fall asleep without nursing her. Every once in awhile I can make it happen, but 9 times out of 10 she nurses to sleep. She will not take a pacifier and also will not suck her fingers.
3. She either wakes up at 4 or 5 to start her day, or will wake up in the middle of the night for 1 - 2 hours. I nurse her, but then she will not go back to sleep. To make matters worse, she SCREECHES the ENTIRE TIME. She's not screaming, but screeching. It sounds like we have a baby dinosaur in our house.
4. Because I have a 3.5 year old, our days can be somewhat inconsistent. He goes to school 2 mornings a week, plus I have to do the shopping, etc. I also don't feel like we can stay home everyday without things for him to do. I do try and get her first nap of the day at home and her mid-day nap at home. It is not like when I had my son; however, and I could try to always be home for naps.
Since We have a 3.5 year old, it is how I got into the habit of nursing to sleep. It was just so much quicker, and I didn't have to leave him alone as long. I'm the only one who tries to get her to nap sleep including at night. I'm truly, truly at my wits end and even willing to hire a sleep trainer to help. Does anyone have advice???
Here are some sample days:
5:00 - awake
5:25 - nurse
5:40 - pd awake
6:00 - got up for day
7:30 - nurse / asleep
8:25 - awake happy
10:45 - nurse / asleep
12:25 - awake happy
1:30 - eat solids
2:55 - nurse / asleep
3:15 - awake happy
5:00 - eat solids
6:40 - nurse / asleep for night
2:30 - nurse / awake
2:30 - 4:00 - awake and screeching, tried nursing twice, finally asleep at 4
6:45 - awake for day
I have literally spent the last 2 hours trying to get her to take her first nap of the day which means she has been awake for over 3 hours.
Thanks!!!! -Jen
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Hi hun! Sorry you are struggling, I know how hard it can be, but not to worry we will get it all sorted out! My DD is a little over 6 months as well and I also have a 4 year old so I completely get where you are coming from :)
I have literally spent the last 2 hours trying to get her to take her first nap of the day which means she has been awake for over 3 hours.
This is actually the first thing that jumps out at me, I think her A times are on the low side which is why you are struggling to get her to nap. My DD is currently doing a 3.15hr A time so I think the fact that she was awake for over 3hrs is actually a good thing, and it really does mean that she wasn't ready to sleep before then. If she's up for the day at 6am I would try to have her first nap around 10am - this will also mean that she'll be able to get onto a 2-nap routine vs 3 naps, which might be affecting her night sleep. Also with a 3+ hr A time I find it generally easy to be able to go and do groceries/errands and be back home in time for nap. That said, I generally try to have the first nap at home in the crib and then if she has a car nap in the afternoon or whatever she can generally manage ok.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
My DD also won't take a feed when she first wakes either, so what we end up with is an AEAS routine which is okay too. So something like:
WU 6:30am
A
E 7:30 - bottle
E 8:30 - solids
A
S 9:45am for 1.5hrs
I think once you push those A times you will find that she may be able to fall asleep without nursing because she'll be tired enough.
What do you think?
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Thanks Lindsay! It helps to just have a plan. The night wake-up is killing me. Of course, tomorrow I have a doctor's appt, so I won't be able to do her nap in bed, but I will focus on it Wednesday. When you say sleep at 9:45 for your daughter, how far in advance of that do you put her down? Also, what time does she go down for bed at night? Thanks again!!!
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I usually only leave 5-10 mins for her to settle. I sometimes just hold her and singto her for a few mins until she's drowsy before putting her down. It doesn't take long for her to fall asleep because she's plenty tired by then :). Sometimes you might notice that they show tired "signs" earlier, however these can often be misleading...often they just need a change in stimulation/activity.
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Hi Lindsay - thanks for the advice, I think overall things are better. The last few mornings she's slept until at least 6 am; however, we are having a lot of night wakings. Is she maybe just going through a sleep regression/growth spurt? I opted to try not giving her solids dinner last night, but that didn't seem to help. (She's only up to solids about 2 times a day right now.) I know I'm sometimes getting her down a bit later at night than I should be, our evenings are kind of intense. DH has been getting home from work later than normal, which is making dinner a bit of a disaster. Our son has also been one heck of a handful in the evenings lately. I'm on my own for dinner and bedtime tonight, so who knows how it will go this evening!!!
Here has been the last few days:
6/20 (this was the day I posted initially)
2:30 - nurse
2:45 - pd awake
3:45 - nurse (she never went to sleep)
4:00 - pd awake; fell asleep at some point
6:45 - awake
7:20 - nurse
8:15 - solids
8:40 - 10:00 - tried to pd for nap; did pu/pd untl 10, when she finally fell asleep nursing - this is where you mentioned I wasn't giving her enough A time.
10:00 - nurse to sleep
11:40 - awake happy
1:00 - nurse
2:25 - 2:45 - tried to pd for nap; every time I put her down would SCREAM
2:45 - nurse to sleep
3:40 - awake very fussy
7:10 - nurse and fell asleep
8:10 - awake screaming
8:15 - 8:35 - pu/pd/finally rocked to sleep
9:40 - awake screaming/I put more clothes on her in case she was cold
9:45 - nursed to sleep
6/21
1:20 - nurse / asleep nursing
6:30 - awake for the day
6:45 - nurse (not well)
7:30 - nurse (ate well)
8:45 - 9:00 (fell asleep in car dropping son off at school)
10:45 - 11:00 - (fell alseep in car picking son up from school)
11:15 - nurse
12:45 - solids
1:40 - nurse
1:45 -3:15 - asleep
4:45 - solids
6:30 - nurse
6:40 - asleep
9:05 - awake screaming; asleep within moments of picking her up
6/22
3:20 - awake
3:30 - nurse
3:50 - pd awake, fell asleep on her own at some point
6:3 0 -awake
7:10 - nurse
8:15 - solids
9:25 - nurse
9:30 - 10:20 - asleep
12:30 - 12:40 - fell asleep in my arms (this was an accident, we were at our lake and I was holding her in the water while my son played.)
1:30 - nurse
2:35 - nursed to sleep
4:15 - awake
6:50 - nurse
6:55 - asleep
8:10 - awake screaming
8:10 - 8:55 - tried to do pu/pd, usually started screaming once I put her down
8:55 - nurse to sleep
6/23
3:10 - awake playing in crib
3:40 - nurse
3:50 - 6:00 - asleep
6:00 - 6:15 nurse / sleep
6:15 - awake for the day
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6:45 - awake
7:20 - nurse
8:15 - solids
8:40 - 10:00 - tried to pd for nap; did pu/pd untl 10, when she finally fell asleep nursing - this is where you mentioned I wasn't giving her enough A time.
Just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly...she woke at 6:45am and you attempted first nap at 8:40am and it took her until 10am to fall asleep? If this is the case, then she was absolutely UT for the first nap. If she woke at 6:45am I would even attempt a nap before 9:45/10am.
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Hi Lindsay - yes, that was what prompted you to suggest to me earlier this week to push up her a time closer to 3 hours. I was more posting that day to show her frequent night waking that night. Unless she falls asleep inadvertently in the car, etc. I've been trying to move her a time out.
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How did today go?
Frequent NW early in the the evening/after BT are usually due to OT.
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Hi Lindsay - we stayed home today, and I just decided to bite the bullet and not nurse her to sleep anymore. I think all things considered, it went really well. She was up from about 3:55 - 4:30 thus morning (I did opt to nurse her to sleep at 4:30). From there, our day looked like this:
10:25 - 11:05 - Nap 1 (I held her to sleep for this nap)
1:30 - pd down for sleep, some fussing and crying but asleep on own
1:45 - 3:15 - asleep
6:50 - pd awake
7:15 - 7:30 - fussy that escalated to screaming
7:30 - checked on her, changed a poopy diaper
7:40 - pd awake
7:50 - asleep on her own
I'm interested to see how often she wakes up tonight, most nights for the last few weeks she's woken up around 3 times. Sometimes as many as 4. She's working on sitting up and started to crawl a bit today, so I think that's been part of the problem. She's waking up because she's working on it in her sleep.
Anyway, the one thing I wasn't sure if is how long do you recommend between waking up from her last nap and bedtime? I think I might be stretching her too long then, but this is the time I struggle with most to get her down in a timely manner due to dinner, my husband's work schedule, and my 3 year old. Thanks!
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Wow great job!! My DD is sitting up now but for a week or 2 there she was trying all sorts of crazy shenanigans in her sleep ::)
Yes I would definitely say the A time to bed is too long, I think when she was fussing at 7:15 she was already OT by then. If she woke from nap at 3:15 I would say BT no later than 7pm. Often my DD is in bed as early as 6:30. I know how chaotic that time of night can be, my DH gets home at 6 and I try to have dinner ready for as soon as he's home so we can all eat together, but many night he doesn't see DD much :(. But that's just how it is right now, he spends solo time alone with her on Saturday mornings when he lets me sleep in!
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She only woke up once last night, I nursed her, and then she went to sleep on her own! AND, she didn't wake up until 6:30 today! Hurray!
Today, we won't be able to be as consistent about naps, so we'll see how it goes!
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Yay!! Fabulous!! Yes weekends are all over the map for us as well. I try to let her have 1 good nap at home and the rest are usually in the car/out and about.
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Hi Lindsay - if you have a super short nap that throws your day off, when do you put your daughter down again? Catie took a 15 minute nap from 12:45 - 1:00, and I haven't been able to get her down again today. I tried at about 2, so I'm guessing that was too soon. Now, (at 3:30) she's acting wack-a-do, so I think she's OT. Thanks!
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Yes she's probably OT. Can to try to AP a nap to get her though to BT? Car or stroller, something like that?
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Yup! Will try now. What is the latest I should let her sleep until to avoid issues at bed?
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I would say latest 4:30 and then aim for a 6:30/7 BT
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How did you fair out?
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Hi Lindsay - not bad all things considered! I saw your note regarding 4:30 at about 4:45, and that's when she woke up on her own. I started trying to put her down at about 6:30 and ended up holding her to sleep at 7:15. I think she was just way too OT to fall asleep on her own. She only woke up once at midnight and then was up for the day at 6, so honestly not bad at all and WAY better than last week! Thanks for checking!
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Hi Lindsay - we've had a few days of pretty crummy short naps, so i think I need to bump her a time to 3 hours and 15 minutes instead of the 3 I've been doing. Any advice on how long to wait before trying a nap again after a short one?
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You are probably right, if naps start to become consistently short it's a good idea to bump again. Do you ever try to resettle? For whatever reason my DDs PM nap is always 30mins but I am usually able to resettle it. After a short nap I don't reduce by too much, I would maybe do 2.5/2.45hr, but I know my DD can handle OT fault well.
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Hi Lindsay -
Here we go again...everything has gone to heck in a hand basket here. We are back to extreme OT, short naps, taking a very long time to settle, waking up screaming, etc. I'm at the end of my rope again. It all started late last week. My husband had is wisdom teeth out, and I had to bring Catie with me. Her nap schedule got all messed up that day, and it's been extremely difficult to get back on track. It hasn't helped that my husband's recovery has not gone as well as hoped, so he's been on pain medication longer than expected and needs me to drive him places. Catie also officially started crawling on Sunday and sitting up on Sunday. So, she's trying to practice that in her light sleep, which sort of wakes her up. I'm not kidding when I say that when I pick her up to hold her and try to settle her she's literally trying to do it in my arms. We have night wake-ups of 2+ hours. I honestly don't know what to do. ANY advice is appreciated.
Most importantly and in the immediate, how long a period do you recommend after her last nap of the day ends and I should put her to bed? We have to makeup some sleep somewhere, and her naps have been painfully short. (Although just now she finally fell asleep at 2:30, woke up SCREAMING at 3:20 and I let her cry in her bed and she fell back asleep at 3:30...my stomach seriously hurts from this, though.) Thank you.
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Huge hugs Hun! They always like to throw us for a loop don't they!? Can you post what your EASY is looking like, even if it is just rough? Also, how old is she now? I think our DDs are close in age?
Just for reference this is what we are doing more or less:
WU 5:30/6 (gross!)
Nap 9/9:30-11/11:30
Nap 2:45-3:30 - usually capped
BT 6:45
With developmental leaps does come crazy sleep at times, and I know it is exhausting. I'm also wondering about teeth, any coming in? I usually allow for a 3hr A to bed.
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Hi Lindsay - I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner. Thursday we went to the shore for the day, and I knew sleep would be all over the place, and I used yesterday to try and get back on track. Next week my husband is no longer on vacation, so our routine should improve...although my son has camp from 9 - 1 everyday, so I'm not sure how that will work out with Catie's naps. I think things are getting better, and some of it was developmental, but we are STILL dealing with wild swings in terms of when she wakes up for the day. I have realized; however, that when I put her down to sleep, she NEEDS to cry for 10 minutes before she can fall asleep. I realized because even in my arms she was starting to do it, so that has helped me with my stress / anxiety over her crying at nap and bedtime.
7/8
3:40 am - nurse
7:00 am - awake for the day
7:25 am - nurse
8:30 am - solids
10:00 am - 11:20 am - nap
11:30 am - nurse
12:30 pm - solids
2:20 pm - pd awake
2:30 pm - 3:00 pm - nap (tried to settle...could not)
3:15 pm - nurse
4:45 pm - solids
6:30 pm - nurse / asleep for the night
8:20 pm - 8:25 pm - fussing / fell asleep on own
7/9
12:30 pm - nurse
5:15 am - awake
5:35 am - nurse
5:50 am - pd awake / played and fussed in bed
6:30 am - gave up, and got her up for the day
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I think I forgot to answer your question on age. Yes, our daughters are very close in age. Catie turned 7 months this week. (I'm tired this morning.) I also meant to mention thank you for posting your daughters EASY. It helps to hear what others are doing!
I also thought of 1 more question. Am I at the point where I need to put Catie down no earlier than X time regardless of what time she wakes up?
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Sorry I've been so long to get back to you, been away for the weekend. Yes I tend to do that and not put DD down for a nap before 9am regardless of WU, we just try to push through and I resettle an OT nap if I need too. The routine you posted actually seems pretty good, once you have 3+hr A times it is hard to have 2 long naps so we tend to do 1 longer and 1 shorter. As for the crying, if she is mantra crying that is ok, but you don't want to leave her full on screaming alone, even if you are just there to reassure her it will help to not break that bond of trust.
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Thanks Lindsay - do you mind sharing what time you do milk and solids feedings with such an early wu? I'm struggling with catie with that. Also, should I try to put her down later than 6:15 if her last nap ended at 3:15 and she's waking up for the day around 5:15?
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Granted I'm not a whole pile of help with the EW as we usually battle that as well. I usually do 4 bottles, but the 2 in the middle are close together as I tend to protect the BT bottle so she takes a good feed before bed, and this is the only real way I can arrange it around naps without having the last 2 bottles too close together. I also feed at 7am regardless of WU as she doesn't take a good feed until then even though she's dropped her NF. We are kind of on our way to dropping to 3 bottles per day.
WU 6am
E 7
Solids 8/8:30
S 9:30 - 11:30
E 11:30
Solids 12:30/1
E 2:45 (bottle - this obviously tends to be a smaller feed)
S 3 - 3:45 (capped)
E (Solids) 5pm
E bottle 6:45pm
BT 7pm
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Hi Lindsay - me again. Any advice on extreme night time shenanigans at bedtime? In the last few weeks Catie started to crawl, sit up, and most recently pull herself up to standing. As a result bedtime is NOT FUN to say the least. It's taking me about 1.5 hours to get her down at night. It also doesn't help that dh has had after work stuff, so I'm on my own more frequently than normal. I feel like our schedule is constantly off and she's always OT or UT, which is contributing.
If I put her down drowsy she ends up pulling herself up and SCREAMING until I go in and get her. When I do get her she wants to play. I typically start bedtime around 6:30, bit she's not falling asleep until after 8. Any advice? She'll be 8 months on August 6.
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How much day sleep is she generally getting hun? And what time does her last nap usually end?
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I think the problem is the timing of her last nap of the day (and we are still all over the place). For example, yesterday I waited to go grocery shopping after her morning nap. Of course, she fell asleep in the car on the way home from the grocery store so I couldn't put her down for her afternoon nap until 3:15, and she slept until 4:45. So, yesterday in total she got 2 hours and 50 minutes of daytime sleep, but was up at 5 am yesterday for the day. Today, she slept until 6:45 but only got about a total of 1 hour of daytime sleep. I had the same problem where she fell asleep in the car in between naps. So, she slept until 2 pm in the car, and I felt like I couldn't put her down for an afternoon nap at home without grossly effecting her bedtime again.
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Yes so the 5am WU was likely a result of the late nap the day before plus being probably on the high end of day sleep, and I'm thinking the screaming at BT sounds like OT behavior (though in all honesty could be developmental given all the new skills). I also aim to do errands in between naps and I try (if I can) to go as soon as she wakes from that morning nap otherwise she's also dozing off in the car. But hey it happens, it's just life! I personally don't put my DD down for a nap any later than 3pm and I cap that to a max of an hour, but generally I aim for the PM nap to be somewhere around 2-2:30ish with her waking up at about 3:30, giving a 3.5hr A to bed.
Is the screaming at BT a regular thing or just kind of a 1-off because the PM naps were wonky?
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I also try to do errands/get out of the house after the first nap, but we live 30 minutes from anything, so she inevitably falls asleep in the car. Today I decided to try our ride home with naptime to see if she would get a 30 minute afternoon nap at least, bUT she only slept 15 minutes and it's 8:40 pm and we're going through the night time insanity. I feel at this point that the intense screaming at night is NOT a one-off and it's been at least a week that it happens. I think I'm getting an ulcer from it. Just kidding. Kind of.
Here's how today went:
6:30 - wakeup
9:45 - pd for nap/screaming until I nursed her (she was not due to nurse at all)
10:00 - asleep nursing
11:35 - awake
3:15 - 3:30 - asleep in car seat
6:30 - nurse and fell asleep nuring
7:50 - awake screaming
7:50 - 8:45 - tried various times to hold her, put her down, etc. And she's still awake. She us desperately tired, but the minute I put her down SCREAMS and ends up standing in bed. At this point I'm doing whatever I can to get her to fall asleep and stay asleep.
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Hi Lindsay - tonight is shaping up to be another rough evening. We FINALLY got Catie down to sleep last night at around 9:15. She nursed once around 2:30 am (totally normal for her), and she was up for the day at 5:30. (REALLY?!)
Today, went like this:
5:30 - awake
9:00 - 10:40 - nap 1
1:45 - 2:30 - asleep in stroller
4:05 - 4:15 - asleep in car seat
6:30 - asleep for the night (ha, ha)
7:40 - awake and screaming/standing in bed
7:45 - pu / held to sleep
8:00 - pd
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Sorry Hun, my 2 gave me a run for my money today! Yeesh! Ugh I know the 5:30am WUs all too well unfortunately. Okay so, great first nap! I think the 2nd nap was probably UT but sounds/looks like you were out and about and probably couldn't have avoided that. I'm really wondering if the standing and screaming is developmental and/or pain related (any teeth on the move?) since prior to this she was settling fine at BT - correct? The other thing is it could be separation anxiety, I know a lot of ladies in the birth club mentioned it around this age (my DD has always been so bad for this so this would be nothing new for us ::) ). So I'm thinking for now maybe you can do a gradual Withdrawl approach to BT? If you lay her down and just sit beside the crib with a hand on her, do you think that would work?
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Hi Lindsay - Back again, only this time teething is most definitely the culprit. I was hoping to just get some quick advice regarding OT and incredibly early WU due to teething. Catie is waking up at least 2 - 3 times a night (I can usually get her back down pretty quickly), and then waking up for the day anytime between 4 - 5:30. Yes, that's right...4 am. I'm not sure what time to do her first nap when this happens. There is NO WAY we can power through to 9 or 9:30. Any advice on what time to aim for in terms of first nap? Thanks!!!
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Best thing to do is (if you can) firstly try to treat the WU as a NW (I realize you probably tried that lol) and if you can't get her back down, then literally push that first nap out as far as you can make it. If you have to stand in front of her and do a dance to keep her awake, do it. She may nap 30mins but you have more of a chance to resettle her with an OT nap, or she'll just crash and take a good nap. The problem with having a nap too early is that it will perpetuate the EW. So just push as long as she can possibly make it, and keep doing it for the next few days until you get back to a 9ish am nap.
Are you medicating for teeth at all? I personally find the ibprophen/Advil works the best.
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Thanks Lindsay! Of course I put her down at 7 am this morning, when I probably could have tried to push her a little longer. She was up at 4 am today (kill me), though. Yes, I definitely treat the early WU as a NW. I put her back in her crib, etc. but she's having none of it. Even though she was awake at 4 today, I didn't get her up until after 5. Do you think I should I cap the morning nap, or just let her go as long as needs?
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I would maybe cap at 2hrs, so that she gets a good nap but hopefully it wouldn't be treated as night sleep. The day is going to be wonky regardless, and you are likely going to need to maybe AP a CN later in the day to get her through to BT.
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Hi Lindsay - we're back to bedtime being a bit of a struggle against, and I was hoping to get your advice on whether I'm letting her afternoon nap go too long? Catie is now 8.5 months old. She still has 1 or 2 early wakings a week, but generally sleeps until 5:45 or 6. I'll type up her routine from yesterday morning wakeup.
6:00 - awake
9:20 - 10:50 - nap 1
2:25 - 3:30 - nap 2
6:30 - bedtime routine
8:05 - asleep finally
5:00 - awake for the day
8:15 - 10:00 - nap 1
1:55 - 3:45 - nap 2
6:45 - bedtime routine
7:25 - still not asleep
Thanks!!!
P.S. based on the fact that she just bit me twice while nursing, she's probably got a 4th tooth coming in.
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So I'm the first day I think perhaps she needed a bit longer A to bed. It is similar to our routine and we try to keep bed at 7ish. Actually the second day too, given she had 2 x 1.45hr naps she was probably UT at bedtime. I usually try to cap day sleep at 3hrs otherwise we get EWs or bedtime shenanigans.
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Thanks, Lindsay! I'll make sure to cap her naps to a max 3 hoirs. What time do you recommend making sure she doesn't sleep past in the afternoon? I was letting her go until 3:45, but maybe that's too late? The goal is to have her asleep and in bed by 7.
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3:45 is probably fine, I usually end up capping the PM nap so we aren't getting too much day sleep and so she has a good A to bed. If you want to you can try pushing that first A to 3.5hrs, we've started having to do that this week to get a good morning nap. I think by doing that and capping day sleep to 3hrs that might also help your EW.
We are something like:
WU 6:30
Nap 10-11:30
Nap 3-4
BT 7:15
Realllly starting to approach 2-1 territory. Yikes!
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I can't even think about 2-1 territory! My son has preschool 3 days a week in the autumn from 12:30 - 3:30. I have no idea how I'm going to handle Catie's maps, especially since she falls asleep in her car seat anytime after 2.5 hours wake time!!
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Just stopping by to say hi. Lindsay might not be on for a few days, I haven't read through your thread but wanted you to know I'm keeping an eye out :)
From the last couple of posts it looks like you're trying out a tweak so probably need a few days to settle in and see how that works out anyway. Good luck with it.
Shout out if you need support.