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SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 02:49:29 am

Title: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 02:49:29 am
Hi there,

I think my 4 month old has been in an overtired cycle from but after turning 3 months...or could be early 4 month sleep regression?

Her naps over the last 4 weeks have only exceeded 30-35 minutes on one occasion when she slept for 1 hr 55. She also started to cry when putting her in her bed and cries more often then not on waking.

I put her to bed in a darkened room, with white noise. She is in a sleep bag arms out and has a dummy.

At night she sleeps between 9-12 hrs, typically 10 hrs with a bed time of 6.30pm-7pm. At night she sleeps in a sleep bag arms out, no white noise, dummy.

She sleeps in our room still.

Dummy doesn't seem an issue as she pops it out at night and when we go to bed I retrieve it from her cot.

I've tried to get more of a routine - previously she fed on demand and slept when she needed - she was sleeping in 1.5-3 hrs blocks. However finding it challenging as find some days she's tired within the A time and some times I see no tiredness cues so when I pop her to bed there is even more crying which leads to an abandoned nap after 30 mins of attempted settling. The A times I've tired is 1.5 hrs. One day following an abandoned nap her A time was 3 hrs and she slept for 30mins the within 30 mins showed tiredness cues so popped her down again and she slept for 1 hr 55...

Any advice and suggestions would be welcomes as its exhausting as it is and she's not getting the sleep she needs. I'm really confused about what to do/try and am second guessing everything now!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 06:56:08 am
From reading the other post I tried this evening putting her to bed earlier -6pm and she woke after 30mins and I was unable to resettle her (shhh patting) fed her to drowsy and she's asleep again....so hope this isn't a pattern for her evening sleeps now... ???  :'(
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 07:03:21 am
Sorry to post again so soon, she woke within 10 mins of being resettled and won't settle now...this is unusual for her as normal she start sleeping through the night from this time roughly....
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: Bella89 on June 26, 2016, 07:16:34 am
Hi there, and sorry you're having a difficult time. Don't worry, maybe I will be able to help a little?

Please, remember. What works for one baby will not necessarily work for yours. The pattern is one, but routines should be fitted to ones needs.

Could you post your routine from today or yesterday. It would be easier for me to judge what could be wrong.
I.e:
6:30 WU and 8 oz of milk
7-8:30 A time
8:30-9:45 nap#1
...

Is she BF or FF?
What is the weather like where you are? I know this is what's getting into my DS:/ Hot hot hot!!!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 07:43:50 am
Sure and thanks in advance.

Yesterday
7.20 - wake up - nappy change and dressed, breast fed both sides
8.00 - activity - play gym
9.30nap (unfortunately in car but was showing tiredness cues - red eyebrows, different cry when playing, rubbing face so if home would have popped her to bed)
10.05 wake - in car
10.20- feed
11am nap (in car on way home)
11.35 awake (as we go home) and bath (poop explosion) then activity
1pm feed
1.30pm nap (based one tiredness cues)
2.05 wake and activity
3.15 nap (nap based on tiredness cues)
3.40 awake, feed, activity
5pm abandoned nap - activity
5.30pm feed 60ml expressed milk bottle
6pm bedtime routine, pjs, upstairs to room feed both side, story in between, pop to bed drowsy but awake.
7pm sleep

We were using dummy and introduced a comforter but then read comforter (cuddly) can increase risk of SIDS and should be used until baby is 12 month plus so taken that away - had been introduced for 2 days but taken away once asleep at night,


Today.
5.30am wake, feed, popped to bed awake went to sleep just after 6.am
7.10am wake, activity, change, dressed and fed
8.30 - playgym
9am nap
9.35 wake, activity
10am feed - refused second side
10.30am nap - tiredness cues
10.50 nap abandoned crying
11am feed activity
12.20 tiredness cues - down time on mattress on floor (to observe!!) lots more tiredness cues so nap
11.55 wake activity
2pm nap
2.40 wake, feed activity
5.15 pjs, 80 expressed milk bottle, upstairs to bedroom fed one side refused other, story after first side. Popped to bed drowsy but awake. Cried for 10mins, picked up and offered other boob, taken, burped and popped to bed for 6pm.
6.30 wake - could resettle - feed to drowsy :-(
6.45 sleep
6.50 wake
7am hubby resettled - she held his hand and stroked her face.
7.10 sleep.

We haven't  really had a routine...and as you can see we are all over the place....and now I'm struggling to implement one as everything I've seen assuMes baby sleeps for 1.5 - 2hrs for day naps....which my Lo doesn't at the moment.

We are winter here, about 13 degreesin day, room where she sleeps is usually 20-22 in day without hearing and at night 19-22.

Update: not rewoken since 7.10 so in night sleep mode now.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: Bella89 on June 26, 2016, 15:14:59 pm
Gotcha! :) Oh I am so jealous of your winter time right now :)

Ok, so my gut is telling me she needs a little change to her routine, because from what I see here you do have one :) It's just a matter of making it better.
Please read the following:
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

I feel like she doesn't eat much (although both breasts in the morning seem like here is where she is really hungry after nighttime).
If you extend that cycle from feed to feed, she will eat more and her body would understand the room for a longer nap. Does that make sense?

Of course when you're out and about you can't always create a good routine, because it is what it is. In the car at this age most kids just fall asleep whenever. I was trying to put together a routine for you, but then I noticed that you have 2h of A time and 1h midday.
I would say try to even out these times and extend the time between feedings for the next couple of days.
What do you think?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: Bella89 on June 26, 2016, 15:15:56 pm
Also, this may interest you:
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 17:23:06 pm
Thank you Bella89!

I felt she doesn't eat a lot given the time she is asleep (though she usually wakes between 4.30 and 5.30) I've always gone to her - whimpers and cooing rather than crying - and fed her after waiting 10 mins to see if she resettles. I'm actually waiting the 10 mins now and her cry is like a I really can't be bothered or don't have the energy to cry properly. There are breaks in it but there is defo more crying now the cooing so I'm picking her up to feed as she's slept 10hrs 40 (though that from me waking and hearing her so she could have been awake longer!)  I try to feed both sides as she'll have been asleep for 9 hours (usually as a minimum more typically 10) at that point. Sometimes she falls asleep or is drowsy after one so I pop her to bed, she wakes and then takes about 20-30 mins to settle.

Each time I feed I do one side then offer the other. Sometimes she takes it. Sometimes she refuses. I'm trying to feed on a as close to as poss three hour schedule following advise from HV and family centre....sometimes she's fine with that other times she requests prior - I don't with hold if I see cues though her tiredness and hunger cry are pretty similar! So at the mo the gap between feeding  is 2.5-3 hrs....should I increase this gradually so expand 15 mins over a few days to get it close to the 3-4 hr mark? With the NF I give between 4-5am should I extend from here or extend feed from her 7am ish wake up?

Now for example she has fallen asleep after one boob...,should I wake her for the other or pop her back to bed (she will wake on putting down, or I'll wake to sleep.

I agree A times are uneven...this is from me allowing for action on tiredness cues. Having read some of the other post albeit for different aged babies. I see that. Her tiredness cues could be habit? As I've been trying to extend her naps for 4 weeks now..first week or two involved getting to know my baby a lot better and a change from child guided communication to more of a balance with parent guided communication. The last two weeks I've been acting on her tiredness cues so A time could range between 30 mins and 2 hrs...3 hrs in late arvo/evening.

 I've also tried to feed as close to a nap as poss without feeding her to sleep so that she would be fuller and sleep longer but this doesn't seem to have helped.

How do I adjust EASY after a short nap without having unbalanced A times?

Should I still be trying to pop her to bed earlier at night to help her catch up on sleep?

Thanks so much for your help! I'll read through the links - I'm feeling more positive at this exact moment that I can help her get the sleep she needs...was feeling like I wasn't good enough for her as don't understand how to help her meet her needs  :'(



Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 17:43:20 pm
Sorry meant to mention she was weight tested at family centre (weight before and after fed to see what she had taken in) and it was 100g - They considered that sufficient for a long nap - she was then going to sleep so they could observe and try and resettle as I have no luck. I only attempt now for 10 mins and if it's not happened I don't think it will...also if I keep trying eats in to her A time as does trying to relax her enough prior to nap.

I've just popped her to bed having fed both sides and she self settled within 5 mins. Could her not eating a lot link to it sometimes ESP in the day being difficult for her to settle?

With her eating...she is gaining weight sufficiently - 500g in a month, she's currently 6 kg. Is it more about how much she has in one go rather that how much she has overall.

Thanks again for you help!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: Bella89 on June 26, 2016, 20:08:18 pm
Hi,
I don't want to overstep anyone and of course put your doctor's opinion first. Her weight gain is important (nr1) and overall milk intake (nr2).
But you also have to remember that she is growing up. It always comes down to what you want for your day to look at. Some moms feed on demand, some have a schedule. Obviously you want to feed your baby, but you want the feedings to be effective.
I.e. 1) mom will feed 8 times a day but 1 breast
 2) mom will feed 5x a day both breasts or 1.5 breasts
All kids will have good weight gain and milk intake, but only the second one will have enough calories to play for 2h or sleep for 1.5h. That's a rough example, but shows what I mean :p
Does that make sense?

100g would be like 2.5 oz, 80ml? I really have no idea:/ Sorry
At what age was she tested? Did they manage to resettle?

10 min is a good rule. You are giving her a chance to resettle but respect what she needs :)


Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 21:10:17 pm
Yes that does make sense.

It'd was last week she was tested - so a week short of 4 months. Yep it's about 100ml. And they didn't manage to resettle her.

this is how our day looks so far


5am-5.35 - night feed
5.40am sleep
7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?
7.30am - Activity - nappy change, dressed (4 month old pics 😊), play gym
8.20am  lower stimulation activity - on bubs nest with toy.
8.40am nap routine starts - upstairs to dark room, white noise -waves crashing, sleep sack, dummy. New bit of routine to help her relax (previously read book but wondered if too stimulating) pop her on my bed, sit next to her, allow her to hold fingers if she wishes, reduce eye contact as she reduces it. When drowsy, pop her into bassinet, have fingers available to hold if she chooses (didn't this time).
8.50 sleep - within a minute of being popped into her bed.


If she only sleeps 35 mins do I need to adapt her A time? But I'll still E at 11 (4 Hr EASY) though will see how she is as may try to get her into 3.5hr EASY and then work to extend to 4hrs?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 26, 2016, 21:19:15 pm
Hi :) It looks like you're feeding when she wakes from naps provided that's been >2.5hr since last feed, yes? That's pretty reasonable, IMO. The amount of milk transferred is fine, volume doesn't change much with BF, mainly the content of the milk changes with the needs of baby as she grows. At 4 months, your routine would typically look at bit like this:
7 - WU, feed
9 - nap
10:30 - WU, feed
12:30 - nap
2 - WU, feed
4 - nap
5:30 - WU, feed
7 - feed
7:30 - asleep in bed for the night

Maybe try something like that for a few days and see how you go wrt nap extension - if she's regularly waking at 30-35min, you can sneak in a little before that and lay a hand on her to help her get through that rousing without waking so much and see if that helps extend the nap.

If you're worried about milk intake or her being hungry and waking from naps for that reason (though with weight gain of 500g in a month and her sleeping such long stretches at night, I don't think there's anything to worry about), you can try a topup feed say 45min after the main feed at WU from each nap which then pushes the time she'd be ready for another feed later and gives you that reassurance she's not hungry when she wakes from the nap and you can then keep trying to resettle. You can then slowly reduce that time between main feed and topup feed to consolidate into one larger feed.

I think if you keep A times more consistent for a few days, she may be better able to self-regulate her naps and she may settle better.

Sorry, just wanted to add - 35min can sometimes be undertired if baby has a slightly shorter than average sleep cycle, so if you can keep things consistent A time-wise, you'll be able to see that more easily.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 22:45:11 pm
Thanks Becj86.

If she's not napping for the 1.5 hrs and just the 35 mins, does A time start on wake. Up?

She woke at 9.25 I tried to resettle her (I've also tried sneaking in and helping her through it ) but hasn't worked. At 10.05 she had strong tiredness cues - red eyebrows pulling ears, rubbing eyes, yawning and arching back so I took her upstairs to darkened room and we had 20 mins down time and she fell asleep at 10.30 - I wasn't she whether the time from waking is A time or still classed as S time?

If it's classed as A time should I have been keeping her up long? So the 1.5 hrs? And just adjust my nap timings until she's extending her naps? Or is it classed still as possible S time so downtime and another nap is okay?

Hope I've not messed it up  :-[


Update: I think I messed up - she woke very upset after just over 20 mins 
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 26, 2016, 23:20:24 pm
A time is from eyes open to eyes shut.

How does she behave when she wakes at 35min?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 26, 2016, 23:27:17 pm
Most often wakes with a cry, sometimes wakes with a smile like she does after big night sleep and in am. Once up she settles quickly as is quite smiley. Rarely cries - except when going to bed if not fully relaxed and waking - except after longer sleeps.

Just fed her - 4 hours since last feed and drank for long from both breasts and is fully of smiles now.

Okay gotcha. So I should have kept her awake...what happens then when the change round means next nap is same time as feed...you you just feed say 30 mins earlier?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 27, 2016, 00:43:11 am
Just fed her - 4 hours since last feed and drank for long from both breasts and is fully of smiles now.
That's good, so she can go a while between feeds - and she will take a good amount. You understand the difference between snacking and eating meals, yes? That's essentially what's happening here :)

what happens then when the change round means next nap is same time as feed...you you just feed say 30 mins earlier?   
Yes, ideally at each waking you would feed but in this case with the short naps, try to work the feeds around the naps.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 02:08:48 am
Got it thanks.

Does keeping them awake for A time after short nap not contribute more to over tiredness. I got my LO up after last short nap, she's been up 30 mins and is arching her back, rubbing her eyes and whimpering. I have her in swing chair with toy but she looks so tired and has stopped playing with toy...feel I should be putting her down rather than keeping her up?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 27, 2016, 03:52:08 am
You can reduce the next A time by a bit, but probably only 30min - to 1.5hr after a short nap. You can by all means put her down, but you did ask how to get longer naps.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 04:08:19 am
I tried to wait the full A time however she fell asleep during 3pm feed so 30 mins prior to full A time. She woke after 25 mins crying. Was unable to resettle so we are up again...she's constantly yawning, rubbing her eyes and pulling her ears and on/off crying  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 08:16:51 am
So this is what we looked like today....have included some questions I noted at the time.

7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?
7.30am - Activity - nappy change, dressed (4 month old pics 😊), play gym
8.20am  lower stimulation activity - on bubs nest with toy.
8.40am nap routine starts - upstairs to dark room, white noise -waves crashing, sleep sack, dummy. New bit of routine to help her relax (previously read book but wondered if too stimulating) pop her on my bed, sit next to her, allow her to hold fingers if she wishes, reduce eye contact as she reduces it. When drowsy, pop her into bassinet, have fingers available to hold if she chooses (didn't this time).
8.50 sleep - within a minute of being popped into her bed.
9.20 wake -resettle attempted for 10 mins
9.40 activity - play gym with company (not independent play)
10.05 tiredness cues - red eyebrows, pulling ears, rubbing eyes, cry indicating lay isn't fun anymore - upstairs to dark room, white noise, sleep sack...time spent relaxing her...cuddle til stopped crying and shhing, them popped on bed with fingers available for her to hold and dummy - DOWNTIME? -QU 1 is this still A time?
10.25 popped to bed relaxed and awake, nose stroke and fingers available to hold - held this time
10.30 sleep
10.50 wake - 10 min opportunity to resettle
11am feed - she's taking a lot more and can hear a lot more loud swallowing.
11.25  - activity
12.10 - tiredness cues - downtime/low stimulation activity
12.35 - stronger cues, upstairs, dark room, sleep sack, dummy, lie on my bed, I'm sat next to her - no eye contact from her,
12.38 - drowsy, pop into her bed and sleep within 30 secs. QU2 - should I have kept her up?
1.15 - wake - high pitched crying after initial stretch - assisted resettle
1.40 - sleep
1.53 - wake and crying
1.55 - activity - yawning within 5 min -QU3 could this be habit?
3pm feed - fell asleep feeding after 10 mins...QU4 should I have woken to finish feed and keep A time more in line with morning A time?
3.10 - sleep - moved to her bed
3 35 - woke crying - unable to resettle, up and finished 3pm feed. Was drowsy in feed but crying within 15 mins - activity - however very very upset initial...lots of tiredness cues however these disappeared after an hour and had more smiles and giggles
5.35 - sleep - harder to settle but still only 15-20 mins.
6.08 - wake crying, very very upset.
6.20 - feed - earlier as inconsolable and hungry cues - still fed very well. QU5 - was this wrong?
7.10 - BT routine, pjs, feed top up, book
7.30 - put to bed drowsy but awake
7.35 - sleep
7.40- wake crying Resettled in her bed
7.50 - sleep
8.00 - wake crying - resettled in her bed
8.10 sleep


I'm sure I'm now hearing phantom cries ;D

Any suggestions or tweaks for tomorrow?

I know I need to keep A times 2 hrs or reduce by no more than 30 mins after a short nap.

I must admit I'm pretty anxious as to whether she will sleep through the night still as she's very rarely this difficult to get to sleep at bed time...40 mins...
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 18:24:02 pm
Sorry another question. LO is awake 6.10, also heard her awake at 5am - no crying or cooing...a few raspberry noises etc...should I be getting her up or waiting until 7am? Is this considered A time now as eyes are open? Really don't want to start the day off wrong in term of A time....
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 19:15:39 pm
sorry, another question...I'm wondering if she's over tired as we are not aware when she wakes up...I know it sounds stupid but  I woke at 5 am and heard her shuffling as mentioned in pp... I planned to wait to see if she resettled or cried out (and I'd treat that as a night fed and resettle her) but I fell asleep  :'(

I woke again at 6 am and she was shuffling again...I crept over to hubbies side and checked video monitor as too dark to see if she was awake by just checking. She was awake. at 6.20 she was cooing and by 6.30am crying out so got her up for feeding....so I'm wondering if on other days she's been up longer than we though coz she's so quiet and that resulting in her first awake time being way too long leading to over tiredness for the rest of the day?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 20:50:30 pm
So I wasn't sure what to do as you can see in my last posts re: when A time started this am or how to tweak yesterday's routine.

So my plan was re: routine to start again and look at doing A times of 1.5 hrs rather than 2 hrs as her naps seemed to get shorter yesterday as the day went on and it took a lot longer to settle her so she could fall asleep at BT.

I also decided that 6am would be start of first A time.

So based on that today hasn't gone to plan - and there have been tears, mine as well as LOs  :'(

Based on the 6am Wake - S was need for 7.30 - at 7.15 started nap routine....she finally closed her eye 1 hour 10 minutes later....during which time there was a quick nappy change due to bowel movement. So her first A time was 2hrs 40 mins. thays assuming she went back to sleep between 5am and 6am.

Please can I have some feed back on yesterday's routine and advice for the remainder of the day?
I'm really really finding it hard after 4 weeks of short naps and I have no physical family support other than hubby.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 27, 2016, 21:15:24 pm
7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?
Yep, probably the 5am NF. Not really an issue unless she can't get to the next feed.

10.05 tiredness cues - red eyebrows, pulling ears, rubbing eyes, cry indicating lay isn't fun anymore - upstairs to dark room, white noise, sleep sack...time spent relaxing her...cuddle til stopped crying and shhing, them popped on bed with fingers available for her to hold and dummy - DOWNTIME? -QU 1 is this still A time?
Yes, this is still A time. If you have a lot of 'downtime' and don't have enough stimulation, she may still be UT or not nap but what you're doing seems fine for her age.

10.30 sleep10.50 wake - 10 min opportunity to resettle
This waking could well be hunger, so could the cry before you started wind down, though I'd have thought she would keep crying if she was hungry.

12.10 - tiredness cues - downtime/low stimulation activity12.35 - stronger cues, upstairs, dark room, sleep sack, dummy, lie on my bed, I'm sat next to her - no eye contact from her, 12.38 - drowsy, pop into her bed and sleep within 30 secs. QU2 - should I have kept her up?
I think when you see the tiredness cues initially, in case they're boredom - you could change activity without making it low key and see if that helps her stay awake longer. I think 1.5hr A time is reasonable following a short nap, however, so no, I don't think you should've kept her up.

1.15 - wake - high pitched crying after initial stretch - assisted resettle1.40 - sleep 1.53 - wake and crying
Were you trying to resettle her for 25min here before she went back to sleep?

1.55 - activity - yawning within 5 min -QU3 could this be habit?
Yes, yawning can be lots of things - not just tiredness. DS yawns when he has fluid in his ears. He also yawns when he needs to take big breaths, eg. when he has a cold and can't breathe effectively through his nose or after running (and after feeding/crying when he was a baby).

3pm feed - fell asleep feeding after 10 mins...QU4 should I have woken to finish feed and keep A time more in line with morning A time?
Possibly, I probably would have but I'm not there, I can't see her. I don't know her as well as you do.

6.20 - feed - earlier as inconsolable and hungry cues - still fed very well. QU5 - was this wrong?
No, if she's hungry, feed her. She could well be in a growth spurt at 4mo. Its also reasonable to feed closer together in the late afternoon/evening as your supply will naturally drop around this time.

7.30 - put to bed drowsy but awake7.35 - sleep7.40- wake crying Resettled in her bed7.50 - sleep8.00 - wake crying - resettled in her bed8.10 sleep
Did you read about the 'jolts' as she falls asleep - wonder if she's waking when she jolts? That would be most likely IMO. This could also be overtiredness, pain, hunger, overstimulation. I think this will settle once you get a more stable routine going.

so I'm wondering if on other days she's been up longer than we though coz she's so quiet and that resulting in her first awake time being way too long leading to over tiredness for the rest of the day?
This is a possibility. I think from what you've written though, that her OT naps are 20-25min and UT are 35min. I doubt she's lying there for 2hr awake - suspect she's just waking in between sleep cycles, shuffling a bit and going back to sleep.

Has she ever slept long naps?

So, she got up at 6:30, I'd try for the first nap at 8:30 and see how you go. :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 27, 2016, 21:18:24 pm
Based on the 6am Wake - S was need for 7.30 - at 7.15 started nap routine....she finally closed her eye 1 hour 10 minutes later....during which time there was a quick nappy change due to bowel movement. So her first A time was 2hrs 40 mins. thays assuming she went back to sleep between 5am and 6am.
I think this shows she really wasn't ready for a sleep yet. Taking 1:10 to settle to sleep is frustrating for everyone. Better just to keep her up another 30min and then try the nap. It won't be perfect in one day - she's used to much shorter and more haphazard A times - keeping it consistent should help but if you chop and change based on one day, she's got no chance to let her body regulate based on a predictable routine.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 27, 2016, 23:04:14 pm
Thanks becj86.

Just so I'm clear, in the morning A time starts when I take her out of her bed rather than time she woke? She was awake when I woke at 6am and cried out at 6.20am and I got her out of her bed by 6.30am.

She has prior to the last 4-5 weeks taken long naps - longest usually after any sensory or swimming were between 2-4 hrs. Due to that I have created a lot of toys similar to baby sensory at home to do during A time...she'd typically sleep between an hour and two yours 2-3 times a day. She's STTN from about 4-5 weeks, as soon as we stopped having to wake her every three hrs to feed due to jaundice.

In last 4-5 weeks she's had two big naps on me - I've had to resettle her one was 2 hrs and the other was 3hrs. They only other time was last week she did 1 hr 55 in her bed. Her A times looking back on it were all over the place. First was 1.15, second was 3 hrs (longer as swimming lesson fell at nap time that day) then about 45- 1 hour A time ( unsure of exact time as we were in car when she woke.)  this is when she did big nap. Other two were 30 mins as were the ones after.

A few people have suggested that she's just a cat napper so I had accepted that but I've notice in the last week she hasn't seemed as happy and is more easily upset or fussy, which is why I posted.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 00:54:33 am
Ok, a lot of babies get branded catnappers at around this age when they need longer awake to sleep better. What we know is that she can sleep long naps - its not like she's never done it. She's probably pretty overtired from so many short naps for so many weeks - give her the 2hr and see how she goes - she may need more but just keep it steady at 2hr (1.5 after a short nap) for a couple of days and see how she settles. 

I would take morning A time from when she's crying and wanting to get up, not when she's cooing and/or shuffling.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 01:22:53 am
Just tried to pop her to bed with A time of 1 hr 40 as she was falling asleep feeding...I kept her awake so she had a full feed (the feed is early due to strong hunger cues) after I changed nappy, she still seemed tired and given previous short nap thought I'd pop her down. After 15 mins in her bed awake she was all smiles and giggles and kicking her legs....so have go her up....will try again in 15...
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 01:58:40 am
Falling asleep feeding is normal for a BF baby - that's why a lot of people feed to sleep :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 03:50:58 am
So I should wake her as I did and wait 10 mins or so....

A question I didn't think I'd ask....I've managed to resettle her 3 times during the last nap...we are now at 2 hrs...should I wake her? Wait til she next wakes up, or given OT, keep resettling her?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 04:20:24 am
Just been reading a bit about jolts as you mentioned. This last nap I've stayed in room after she's asleep and watched her and part of her nap was on me...during the transition from one sleep cycle to the next I noticed her jerking and waking...if I'd not been there to immediately shush I am pretty certain she would have woken up.

She sleeps in a sleep sack arms out. I did spend a week swaddling her for day naps as wondered if it would help but didn't make a difference although she was swaddled when she did the 1hr 55 sleep. From birth she was swaddled at night until about 11 weeks if, she's now 17 weeks. During the day sometimes she was swaddled sometimes she wasn't. Prior to her shorter naps, she has done long naps in day unswaddled.

Happy to try swaddling again - she is quite a sucky baby but we have the love to dream swaddled and she used to suck her hands when in them...just can't pop her fingers in as she like to know. I could also do one in one out.

Do you think it's worth trying again, or just stick to consistent A times for now.

Can jolting increase with OT?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 04:33:45 am
during the transition from one sleep cycle to the next I noticed her jerking and waking...if I'd not been there to immediately shush I am pretty certain she would have woken up.
This is pretty normal, you might have felt it yourself as you fall asleep - hold through the jolts can help her learn to sleep through these.

You'll have to wean it pretty soon anyway, I wouldn't bother going back to a swaddle.  Stick with your consistent A times - the jolts can increase with OT, I think. Getting the routine right usually fixed most of these side issues, so just stick with getting those A times right and resettling the naps if you can - watch for the jolts and help her through the sleep cycles and she'll be better rested.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 08:26:59 am
this is how we looked today:

6.30 - starting up call out - feed
8.40 - sleep
9.10 - Activity
10- feed - spilled a lot and then refused other side
10.35 - feed - hunger cues - one side taken.
11.05 - sleep
11.25 - wake and activity
12.40 - feed - hunger cues - fed well on both sides.
1.05 - sleep attempt - due to short previous nap and nearly falling asleep feeding multiple time - in her bed wide eyed, smiling, giggling and kicking legs. Got her back up after 15 mins
1.30pm sleep - little cry but asleep within minutes.
2.04 -woke - resettled in arms within 10 mins
4.30 - wake - resettled  with a shush 3x - resettled during first shush each time.
4.40 - feed after nappy change
5.20 - activity
6.15 - feed  and BT routine
7.10 - sleep - later than anticipated due to emergency shower but easy to settle still - held arms through jolts.


As you can see I didn't wake her after the 2 hours sleep 😁 I left it til she clocked three as thought she would still have a good A time after waking.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 10:46:22 am
Nice long sleep there in the afternoon, hopefully as she gets used to the longer A times and becomes better rested, she will be able to do those on her own again :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 14:27:24 pm
Fingers crossed. Just up for a NF after 7 hrs sleep - couple of hrs short from the norm so I attempted resettle first however looking over yesterday, with spill, only taking one side and long sleep, she only really had two good full feeds. So NF makes sense.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 28, 2016, 18:39:45 pm
We were up three times in the night 2.10 - NF, then 4.30, and 5.30. Would you expect some night waking as the A times a different to what she's used to?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 20:56:01 pm
then 4.30, and 5.30
Depends how much milk she took and what your supply was like - her upset in the morning and seeming to want another feed could well be trapped wind... That's what those wakings within 1-2hr of a feed often are. Perhaps try lying back for any NFs and the first feed of the day and see if that helps.

The long nights could be a product of the insufficient naps and you may end up with a NF or she could be in a growth spurt.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 29, 2016, 02:57:18 am
She took pretty much a full feed. And yes I think now you have said it it  could have been wind....I didn't take her out her bed except for the feed as I resettled her in her bed...which could be why she woke again an hour later, then and hour after that was up time.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 29, 2016, 07:42:35 am
This is how today went.

2.10am NF - resettling attempted first though hadn't taken that much in in day. Fed well.
2.35 sleep
4.30- wake - crying out - resettled - dummy
4.35 - sleep
5.30 - awake - crying out - resettled - dummy
5.35 - sleep
6.30 - wake, feed - fed well both sides
6.55 - activity
8.28 - Sleep
9.00 wake - started to stir at 8.50  - attempted resettle but didn't work.
9.00 - activity
10.50- feed - fed well both sides
11.10 -Sleep - in car - know car isn't ideal but had an errand after baby group
1.30 - wake - no crying on waking - Activity
2.35 -feed - hunger cues - fed well both sides
3.35 - sleep
4.17 - wake - no crying - activity
4.40 - feed - hunger cues - fed well both sides
6 - feed - hunger cues - 80 ml bottle expressed milk and one side, refused other
6.30- Sleep -woke crying after 10 mins - wind
6.40 - Sleep (key phrase and hand on tummy and dummy)
7.15 - wake crying - hunger cry - feed other side fully
7.25 - Sleep

Once we are sorted with longer day sleeps we are going to loose the dummy as a worried she may start relying on it to settle/resettle which will lead to waking and request to pop it back in. Her Cuski comforter arrived today so once washed we will introduce that.

From looking at today I'm thinking her A time is between 2hrs and 2.10...though will stick with 2 hrs tom as her big sleep was in the car so movement likely aided it...that said since her shorter sleeps started she has only slept 30 mins in the car too...so I'm hopeful!

The jolts are definitely waking her settling and between cycles - except in the car but that will be because she was buckled in! I know you said to hold her through them...I'm trying to keep her in her bed...so would a hand on her tummy and using a key phrase be effective or is there something else I can do to help her through them so she gets used to them? Her bassinet is quite deep with breathable mesh sides!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on June 29, 2016, 10:18:50 am
know you said to hold her through them...I'm trying to keep her in her bed...so would a hand on her tummy and using a key phrase be effective or is there something else I can do to help her through them so she gets used to them?
Yep, hold her body, not pick her up ;) Basically just a hand on her tummy and using your sleepy phrase may work, another option is essentially to gently hold her arms, I just put a forearm gently lying across DS' upper legs and the other forearm across his chest and arms.

You are getting some longer sleeps in there, that's encouraging :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on June 30, 2016, 09:07:35 am
So today looked like this...
11.50pm - wake - grizzley, couple of cries (not food requests) - self settled within 20 mins
12.10 am- sleep
2.50 -wake - grizzley then after 15 min was crying - nappy change, wind
3.40 - sleep - assisted settle in her bed, once settled left drowsy but awake
6.30 - awake - cooing
6.50 - crying - up and fed 1 1/2 sides
7.50 - offered 40 ml expressed milk took 20
9am - Sleep - hold arms and resettle after 35 mins, 40, 45, 50 and 55 mins
10.30 - wake - feed both sides and activity
12.30pm - sleep in car
12.40 - woke 5 mins after transfer to bed from car seat
13.00 up as unable to resettle
13.30 - feed - hunger cues - both
14.10 - sleep
14.50 -awake - unable to resettle
3.30 - feed hunger cues
4.45 - sleep
5.20 - wake - activity
5.40 - feed - hunger cues - full feed
7.00 BT routine
7.45 - sleep

At the 9am sleep should I have persisted with the resettling as much as I did? It was mainly startling/ jolts waking her.

To my eye her A times need a push...shall I try 2.15?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 01, 2016, 08:43:50 am
Here is today's schedule...

4.30am woke crying - NF - full feed
5.30 - sleep
6.50 - wake - activity. Feed - full both sides
9.00 - sleep
9.55 - wake - top up before swimming  - activity
11.25- feed both sides
11.50 - sleep
1.45 - wake and activity
2.40 - feed both sides
4pm - sleep - woke after 5 mins, resettled
4.15pm - sleep
4.45 - wake and activity
5pm - feed
7 - BT routine - first night without/reducing dummy use
8pm sleep
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: Scottishmummy on July 01, 2016, 13:31:05 pm
Just popping in as Bec is away for a few days. How are things going? It looks to me like the 2hr A time seems to be giving some longer naps now?

If your LO keeps falling back asleep then yes persist with the resettle. I usually stopped if I'd been trying for up to 15mins and my LO showed no signs of going back to sleep.

Not read the whole thread, but just wondering what your WD routine is? Sometimes you're getting very short naps (20mins?). Such short naps are sometimes due to overstimulation.

If she doesn't resettle when you transfer her car to bed, you might need to accept you need to park up and wait for her to wake herself. Keep a book and a snack in the glove compartment!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 01, 2016, 23:10:59 pm
Hi Scottishmummy,




We are going okish. The longer naps have been in the car the longest ones after an activity like baby sensory or swimming. The hour was also in the car on the way to swimming in order to get her first nap in.

So we are really struggling with long sleeps at home and I'm struggling to resettle her in her bed.

At the mo we are on day to of A time 2hrs 15 mins - give or take 5 mins. We are also withdrawing the use of the dummy to fall asleep as I was wondering if thus was causing her difficulties transitioning to next sleep cycle in the day. It doesn't seem a prob at night as she does tend to wake us til 5.30 am for NF occasionally, but usually wakes us a 6.30-7am.

I think are main difficulties not is still getting the correct A time, transitioning to next sleep cycle in day and wind down.

For wind down we go to dark room, sleep bag on, book, cuddle and then in bed...she's quite upset on being put into bed.

I have wondered about reflex as she arches her back a lots more since 3 months and gets very upset. Upset a lot when placed on her back and is spilling after meals more...sometimes after 1 hr. She also has hiccups quite a lot. And coughs a lot too. Not sure...

Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 02, 2016, 05:07:29 am
Its definitely worth looking into reflux - overactive letdown/oversupply can also mimic reflux - similar symptoms. Given you're moving to feeding less frequently, that could have unmasked the reflux though.

Yes, it does look like she could do with an A time increase.

Dummy can be very helpful with reflux - I'd get that checked for before going too far into a wean, just to reduce the angst all round :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 02, 2016, 06:44:23 am
Mmmm mm yes you just reminded me about that I was thinking during the week that I should try unlatching her when let down starts to see if that makes a difference. We have been trying gripe water today...though we were out for two feeds and I forgot to take it with me. We are also considering trying Rhuger too.

Here is what today looked like... Not really sure what to make of it as she should have been really tired for the third nap at 3pm as we had been for a walk with the stroller and, then she'd been observing everything in a cafe for an hour but only slept 30 mins...

5.30 am - awake cooing. - resettled herself
7am - feed, activity
9.24 - Sleep
9.50 - wake and activity
10.30 - feed
12 - sleep - stroller
12.50 - wake and activity
1.20 - feed
2.45 - feed (requested) - one side
3.05 - sleep
3.40 awake and activity
5.45 - BT routine inc feed
6.15 - sleep (not sure if this will be a nap or for the night!!)

I'll wondering still if she needs a longer A time but 2.5 hrs seems a lot for a 4 month old is is that normal....I know from looking at the average timing that it's more like a 5 month old...her last awake time today (2 hrs 35 mins) was the longest she's done and she looked very tired as we started BT routine and she we t to sleep very very quickly - I fed her before bed, book after one side then, the other side, burping and put her down - as soon as I put her down her eyes closed...not a peep or a dummy required - all sleeps have been without dummy today. This is our normal routine though she's not usually as tired looking when we start the routine.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 02, 2016, 09:10:14 am
If she's closer to 5 months than 4, 2.5 could well be what she needs. We're only going off an average here - she may be a child who need slightly more A time than average.

Going to sleep quickly is usually considered a good thing - sure is in my house! I would say that probably means you're getting her into bed when she's ready to sleep, not UT, not OT, just right.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 02, 2016, 11:20:57 am
Awesome so that was at approx 2.5 hrs A time...

She's 18 weeks so kinda in the middle, if a touch closer to 4 months...
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 02, 2016, 20:34:14 pm
Its not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination, its ever so slightly more than 'average' - BW is about listening to your baby, not fitting them into a box.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 03, 2016, 08:12:41 am
Here is today...

3.10 - NF after wake and unable to resettle -1.5 sides fell asleep whilst feeding
3.50 -wake when popped to bed
4.20 - NF - hunger cues
4.50 sleep
8am - wake and activity
8.45 - eat
10.30 - sleep
11.07 wake - shirt cry then looked like going back to sleep - left as cooing to see if she would resettle - 10 mins started calling out
1.15- hunger cues - 1.5 sides started falling asleep
1.30 - sleep
2.00 - wake - attempted resettle slept for 5 mins then woke crying
4.00 - eat
4.15 -sleep - on me
4.55 -  wake
6.00 - eat a hunger cues
7- bedtime routine
8.05 sleep - very difficult to settle was aiming for a 7.20 BT


Today she seemed really tired as we got close to the 2.5 hr wake time, however all naps were short, all were at home. She was very upset from 5pm onwards and seemed very hungry today.

Would you expect this on the first day of another push?

 Im wondering if I'm wrong in thinking her sleep cycle is 30/35 mins and I'm over stimulating her as during A time we are always playing e.g listening and moving to music, play gym, black and white books, tummy time, rattles, bells, coloured ribbons, and just observing (we live on a farm so go out and look at the animals or go for walk with the stroller).

Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 04, 2016, 01:36:23 am
3.10 - NF after wake and unable to resettle -1.5 sides fell asleep whilst feeding3.50 -wake when popped to bed 4.20 - NF - hunger cues
4:20 - probably gas I would reckon given a reasonable feed at 3:10

10.30 - sleep 11.07 wake - shirt cry then looked like going back to sleep - left as cooing to see if she would resettle - 10 mins started calling out
and
4.15 -sleep - on me4.55 -  wake
both suggest to me her sleep cycle is about 35 min. This kind of behaviour on waking is most likely UT rather than OT.

11.07 wake - shirt cry then looked like going back to sleep - left as cooing to see if she would resettle - 10 mins started calling out 1.15- hunger cues - 1.5 sides started falling asleep
Did you feed her when she woke from this nap? If yes, I think what you're seeing as hunger cues at 1:15 here are actually tiredness. That was my big epiphany with DS - hunger and tiredness mimic each other and I think that might be happening here given you've fed essentially at sleep time a few times on this day.

Im wondering if I'm wrong in thinking her sleep cycle is 30/35 mins and I'm over stimulating her as during A time we are always playing e.g listening and moving to music, play gym, black and white books, tummy time, rattles, bells, coloured ribbons, and just observing (we live on a farm so go out and look at the animals or go for walk with the stroller).
OS naps are usually shorter than 35min - more like 20min and baby usually just springs back up like a jack in the box wired and ready to go again. No lying for 10min cooing, yk? Given she sleeps better after swimming and such, I would keep up the physical and mental stimulation :)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 04, 2016, 03:32:24 am
Okay cool that's reassured me thanks.

I decided thus am to take her out amd have her nap in the stroller today...we went out 45 mins before her nap...she fell asleep in the car for approx 10 mins this was around a 2 hr A time. She woke as I transferred her to the stroller and started awake until 5-10 before her 2.5 A time was up....she slept in the stroller for 2 hours!

I'm wondering if it's a coincidence that all her long sleeps with the exception of one has been in the car or stroller....with only the one in her bed...I have tried in the last week plus to have all naps at home but obviously we have to go out the house a couple of times a week....I'm wondering if transitioning to the next cycle is the prob and when we're out the movement helps....if that was the case am I best persisting with having all naps in her cot? Or just going with the flow and not stressing as long as she gets at least one long nap during the day?

She's just asleep now, took a long time to settle her, so A time was closer to 2.45 than 2.5...I'm just watching her and after about 15 mins she startled/jolted and I thought it was game over but she's gone back to sleep.

I did wonder about the tiredness/hunger cues mix up - I don't think though from monitoring closely when I feed her over the last week that she can do 4 hourly so going with 3 hourly and will look at stretching it again in a few weeks. If feeding clashes with nap time I'll feed early and then feed again3 hrs after that early feed...does that sound okay?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 04, 2016, 08:21:39 am
Or just going with the flow and not stressing as long as she gets at least one long nap during the day?
really, this is the key - relax about it - no point stressing over it too much ;) Its worth trying to get some naps in the cot and still probably worth trying to get her to sleep longer in the cot but I think provided she's getting sufficient sleep and able to go to sleep independently, the long naps in the cot will come.

If feeding clashes with nap time I'll feed early and then feed again3 hrs after that early feed...does that sound okay?
Sounds fine. You could try topping up if you're worried about not getting through the 4hr.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 04, 2016, 08:56:34 am

Ha ha so she's made a liar of me....she slept 1.5 hrs in her bed this arvo!  ;D

Hoping it's not a fluke!

So it would seem A time currently is 2.5 maybe slightly more. Will stick with 2.5 tom as start wind down earlier given the difficulty settling. I think this is poss due to no dummy - doc said unlikely to be reflux.

5.30 - wake - cooing then called out - fed -
6am - sleep
7.30 - awake - activity
8.30 - feed - both sides
9.30 - sleep in car 10 mins
9.40 - activity
9.55 - sleep
11.55 - wake,  happy and smiling
12.40 - feed - both sides
2.50 - sleep - took a 20 mins longer than normal to settle
4.20 - wake - activity
4.30 - feed
6.30 - feed
7pm BT routine
8pm - sleep - took longer to settle - not using dummy anymore.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 04, 2016, 10:04:18 am
she slept 1.5 hrs in her bed this arvo!
...after the extra long A time - perhaps she really does need a slightly longer A time than average - she sounds like she's a pretty alert, observant little thing and that often goes along with slightly higher A times and higher stimulation needs.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 04, 2016, 10:18:02 am
Yes she seems very alert and nosey! First baby and not really been around babies much so nothing to compare to but from 1 week old midwife was commenting on how alert she was and others always comment on it too.


With the extra long a time before nap 2 - I was expecting a 20-25 min nap ESP when she startled at 20 mins...but she just stirred slightly at 30...and boom 1.5 hrs!

Will see what happens Tomorrow with 2.5 A time if short sleeps I'll maybe push by 10 mins on Weds. I know today's were closer to 3 hrs due to longer settling time but I think it took longer as didn't allow for enough wind down prior to her nap.

Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 04, 2016, 20:02:45 pm
midwife was commenting on how alert she was and others always comment on it too.
This is a fair sign.

Will see what happens Tomorrow with 2.5 A time if short sleeps I'll maybe push by 10 mins on Weds.
Good plan.

didn't allow for enough wind down prior to her nap.
Sometimes these LOs aren't particularly keen on wind down - something short (a couple of mins) that signals its sleep time is often sufficient, so long as you are putting them down for their nap in their sleep window.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 06, 2016, 02:10:03 am
Yesterday didn't go so well. I had an appointment at 10.30 so left early to get there before her nap and have her nap in the stroller...she fell asleep in the car on the way - still got a further hour once she went back to sleep. We only got a 30 min nap in the arvo too.

Because of the car journey yesterday I discounted it so stuck with 2.5 hrs today...we went out 40 mins before her nap time and she fell asleep in the car for 10 mins so about 30 mins prior to her nap time. I managed a smooth transfer to the stroller without waking and she had about 1.5 hrs, this arvo however her second nap was only 30 mins.

I'm wondering if her morning A time may be shorter and her arvo one longer?does that happen?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 06, 2016, 05:25:02 am
Absolutely that happens.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 06, 2016, 07:47:36 am
3.15 - wake - resettled
3.45 - sleep
6.40 - wake
7.00 up
7.30 - feed
8.55 - sleep  - car and transferred to stroller
10.15 - wake
10.30 - feed - one side
12.20 - feed - both sides offered
1.15 - sleep - whoops didn't realise 3 hr A time - she went to sleep in about 10 mins.
1.50 - wake - upset and looked tired - couldn't resettle - still only short nap after extra long A time.
3.20 - feed
3.40 - sleep - fell asleep after one side bf...
4.10 - wake
5.40 - feed - hunger cues - could have been tiredness cues??
6.30 - BT routine incl feed
7.10 - sleep - within a minute of popping down was very sleepy though!

Looking back over the last few days it seems her morning A time is about 2 hrs. After than I'm not sure, 2.5 seems to still get those short sleeps but today by accident - I think I was expecting her to sleep 2 hrs for her first nap so just had that time stuck in my head! She still only did a short nap after 3 hrs A time. She was quite upset for the afternoon though.

I'll try 2 hrs for first A time...what would you suggest for others? 2.40?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 06, 2016, 08:59:13 am
Maybe try for 2:30 and see how you go - that shorter A time in the morning could be compensating for the NW in the early hours of the morning (which is why I often advise to push especially the first A time) but some children genuinely do better with a shorter first A time. That's a mater of playing around with it and finding what works for your individual child.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 06, 2016, 10:37:19 am
Okay I'll stick with 2.5 - and actually stick to it and not go over for the next day or two and see how it goes. I'll stay in tomorrow morning and try for the 2.5 first A time as I think post 2 hrs and the motion in the car is leading to her sleeping at the 2 hr mark. My plan was to get somewhere to walk with her in the stroller for her nap but she seems to fall asleep on the way bless her!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 06, 2016, 18:21:59 pm
So usually we are aware DD is awake 6.30-7am - hubby's alarm gones off at 6.30 and she's usually awake but making very little noise sometimes she does call out just after the alarm goes off maybe 10-15 mins after. Today he's up earlier for work 5.50am and he checked DD and she was awake in her bed again making very little noise.

I know we've previously discuss A time being eyes open to eyes shut, but with the first A time starting when she calls out.

So I'm wondering if her morning A time if classed from eyes open is actually a lot longer that I think which is why I'm getting a few good morning naps - albeit in the car/stroller but the afternoon naps are still short except the one onMonday?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 06, 2016, 20:20:37 pm
Quite possibly. I think something to take into account is that she may not be lying there awake for hours so much as waking and going back to sleep in between.

How old is she now?

Could you go out somewhere suitable for walking a bit earlier and let her play, then put her in the stroller, if you want a stroller nap?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 06, 2016, 20:35:28 pm
She's nearly 19 weeks.

I'm not necessarily after a stroller nap, I went out with her over the weekend in the stroller for the first time in the middle of A time and she fell asleep close to nap time for an hour so it seemed to help with her  getting a long first nap. The last three days she's done long naps in the stroller in the morning ranging from 55 mins to 2 hrs.... She doesn't seem a fan of the stroller when awake - she screams after about 10 mins. Someone suggested it might bebecause it's forward facing and she can't see us...prior tolast week she was in the capsule attached to the stroller facing us.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 07, 2016, 02:44:43 am
Naps not going so well today...stuck with 2.5 hr A time...at about 2.10 she started to display tiredness cues - that previously I thought was hunger. First nap she slept 35 mins, second one she only did 20-25 mins. I've just fed her and she started going to sleep (1.45 after last nap ended) so I stopped her eating and took her to bedroom r some low stimulation activity to try and g et to the 2.5 mark however she fell asleep on the way which was about 2 hrs A time.

I'm at a loss... 
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 07, 2016, 08:09:42 am
So here is today....

6.00 - already awake in cot making very little noise
6.25 - called out
6.30 - feed
8.50 - sleep - settled in 3 mins - started giving cues which I previously took as hunger cues 20-25 mins before but was distracted by playing to push A time to 2.5 rather than 2 - taking start of A time as when she calls out.
9.20 - woke but resettled self - from watching on monitor seems to be going in and out of sleep.
9.30 - wake - activity
10.20 - eat
12.05 - sleep
12.30 - wake - quiet, looked like trying to resettle so left - didn't resettle but looked very tired
2.05 - feed -
2.25 - starting to fall asleep feeding  - stopped feeding and fell asleep on way to bedroom - was doing to bedroom for some low stimulation activity to try and get an A time of 2.5.
2.55 - wake
5 - feed
5.25 - sleep
6.00 - wake
7.15 - feed
7.30 - BT routine
8 - sleep

Yesterday on waking I noticed that she was quiet initially then called out. Today I noticed she was quiet initially and then attempted to self settle but didn't quite get there. Tonight when I popped her in her bed she was awake, no crying at all just two little whimpers and the she self settled without me in the room in about 10 mins (eyes closed). I'm wondering if the short nap issue is now more her ability to self settle and what I've observed over the last day or two is her working on it? Today she definitely looked like she was trying to get back to sleep after each nap.

Given that, I am thinking that I should either stick with the 2.5 awake time or maybe pull it back to 2.15, given she seems to be showing tiredness cues just after the 2 hr mark..

If guess I'm wondering if.giving her 2.5 hr A time if it was a bit much for her, could level of tiredness affect her ability to self settle?



Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 07, 2016, 20:10:36 pm
could level of tiredness affect her ability to self settle?
Yes, it can.

Average at 5 months is 2:20-2:30 A time, so I'd probably leave the A time as is and maybe try sneaking in to assist the resettling to extend naps - just a hand on her (no interaction) can help her get through that transition.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 08, 2016, 08:58:52 am
Here is today...bit messy due to swimming lesson at nap time. She was very tired this arvo.
Only 2 more weeks of swimming at this time then it changes to earlier, though her nap will be a little later.

7am - wake
7.20 - eat
9.15 - sleep in car on way to swimming
9.50 wake
10- eat - top up prior to swimming lesson
11.15 - eat
11.40  sleep - early due to swimming stimulation - in capsule whilst food shopping
1.30pm -wake
2 - eat
4.05 - sleep
4.35 - woke crying unable to resettle
5 - eat
5.30 - fell asleep during independent play
6.15 - wake
7 - eat
7.30 -BT routine
7.50 - sleep.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 08, 2016, 19:37:27 pm
11.40  sleep - early due to swimming stimulation - in capsule whilst food shopping1.30pm -wake2 - eat4.05 - sleep4.35 - woke crying unable to resettle5 - eat5.30 - fell asleep during independent play6.15 - wake
Hmmm... this makes me wonder if her sleep cycle is extending (or maybe we were wrong all along) and she's a tad OT at 2:35 A time. How does she behave generally when she wakes after 30-35 minutes?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 08, 2016, 22:30:11 pm
Generally crying, sometimes hysterical, but once up she's generally happy, though I've noticed she's more fussy, not enjoying independent play as much or for and shows boredom signs e.g. Yawning during activities after a relatively short time. She very occasionally wakes happy unless long sleep or shorter A time.

Yesterday after her 4pm na she was very quiet. Since we pushed it to 2.30-2.35 (this is 7th day) I've notice her getting cranky around the 2 hour mark and I've had yo work hard to distract her to get her to 2.5.

Do you think I should pull back on the A time?

This morning she slept 35 mins I sneaked in but couldn't resettle her, she woke crying but obv stopped when she saw I was there. Once up she cried a little whilst I was getting her out her sleep bag and is quite quiet.

She's seems to be self settling through the night now as not had any wakings where I've had to assist for a few days now and she's clocking 10-11 hrs at night unassisted.

Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 08, 2016, 23:40:36 pm
Yeah maybe dial back just a bit. Is she going to sleep independently?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 00:36:19 am
Yes, though since she started doing 30 min she didn't settle herself and would resist naps with lots of tears so started pupd as shush pat wasn't helping.  Last three nights she's self  settles through the night usually only occasionally I have to assist. Last week when I had to assist twice was very unusual. For last 3 mornings she's resettled herself at that early 5 something wake up.

I have wondered if she is struggling to self settle when še wakes after first sleep cycle in day. If there a difference between day and night as she seems to have no problems at night.

So shall I try 2.20?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 09, 2016, 05:26:48 am
Yes, 2:20 would be reasonable.

There can be a difference between day and night - the skill is the same but the stimuli are different - she can presumably hear other people out and about, animals awake, etc. during the day where at night she can maybe hear you breathing deeply while you sleep and different animals/quieter.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 06:24:38 am
So it sounds like the good news is she has the skills...just struggles to apply them in the day?

Today has been a bit crazy A time wise...did 2.5 and got a 35 min sleep, then another 2.5 and got an hour (in car) on way to park. I sat in back of car on way home to try and keep her awake....she sleep asleep after 1.5 awake for an hour 15! We were parked up at garage getting petrol at time and nothing I did could keep her awake! - poss catching up if OT?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 07:12:42 am
Here's today,

6.30 - wake and feed
8.30 - top up
9 - sleep
9.35 - wake
10.30 - feed
12 - sleep - in car
13.05 - wake
2.15 - feed
2.40 - sleep - in car stationary at the time
3.50  - wake
5 - feed
6.10 - BT routine, feed plus 80 ml expressed milk
7pm - sleep - 15 mins to settle (PUPD)
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 09, 2016, 07:26:57 am
All those longer sleeps are in the car - is she waking when you stop or before/after you stop driving?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 07:43:01 am
Usually she wakes after I've stopped. So yesterday morning she slept 30 mins in car and woke when I stopped at the pool (usually she doesn't as I just hang around the pool while she sleeps!) when she was asleep in the car post swimming I stopped to do food shopping (attached capsule to shopping trolley). She stayed asleep all though and she woke maybe 30 mins after the car stopped, I'd brought capsule into the house too and she stayed asleep.

Today the first car sleep, she was still alseep when we got to the park so popped capsule on buggy and she woke about 20 mins or so later...buggy wasn't moving all the time as we went to cafe for a coffee. Last car sleep, she woke maybe 15 mins after the car stopped.

There are sometimes she wakes before the car stops though.

The first car sleep wake up today she woke with a small cry. The second one, she had been awake in the car for about 20 mins before going to sleep then she woke after the sleep with big smiles.

She is capable of doing long sleeps in her bed as she did one Monday pm....I did noting different that day - other than her getting a two hour stroller sleep in the am....and she did one the Friday before last too.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 09, 2016, 20:18:59 pm
Ok, so what that suggests to me is that she may be wanting the movement or the noise of the engine or something to transition but since she's not waking immediately you stop, its not keeping her asleep, its just helping her transition, so that means that the nap times you're getting are still something that can be interpreted and help determine A time.

She is capable of doing long sleeps in her bed as she did one Monday pm....I did noting different that day - other than her getting a two hour stroller sleep in the am
This is actually an important observation - sleep begets sleep - a good first nap will give you the best chance at good naps for the rest of the day.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 21:42:25 pm
I have tried replicating the Monday morning which was a stroller nap with her falling asleep at the 2 hrs A time mark but subsequent naps have been short after the first long one.

The shortest time she's slept in the stroller is 1 hr and it's tricky as to how far to go as she hates it when she's awake in it though as as it still needs to be reclines a bit as she isn't able to sit unassisted yet.

Just tried 2.20 - she was very upset at the 2.20 mark when we stayed her nap routine but managed eyes closed at the 2.20 mark but she woke after 35 and she's really upset...inconsolable now.

What would you suggest? I am wondering if we got it wrong and she is OT, and the 2 hrs I initially started with was took much? The last few days She gets fussy between 1.5 and 2 hrs after her nap. I guess even 2.20 is a long time to go off a 30-35 min nap...
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 09, 2016, 23:55:30 pm
Just had second nap after 2.10 A time - she settled quicker than expected but woke crying after 25 mins. So would that suggest OT?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 10, 2016, 08:35:58 am
Here is today

6.15 wake and feed
8.35 - sleep
9.10 - wake
9.30 - feed
11.20 -  sleep
11.45 - wake
12.20 - feed
2.10 - sleep
2.45 - wake
3.30 - bath
3.45 - feed - half feed - sleepy
4.05 - sleep
4.35 - wake - finished feed - sleepy
4.45 - sleep - on me
5.55 - wake
6.10 - expressed milk
7.15 BT routine
8.00 - sleep
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 10, 2016, 21:04:15 pm
I'm wondering if I should give it all a break....she woke at 3.10 and I resettled her - she was in her bed awake fell asleep unassisted. She woke then at 6a, so just planned to get her up for the day (she had gone to bed at 8.). She fell asleep part way through feeding on first side. I tried burping her to wake but she stayed asleep so popped her into bed - she slept for just over an hour, and woke at 7.30am. I offered same side again as knew she has not taken a full feed at 6 and her last fed prior to that was 7.15pm ish. She fell asleep again, but woke as I moved her. I offered her the other side and she hardly drank and then refused....this hasn't happened before....

In herself she is a bit quiet but has managed smiles....
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 11, 2016, 05:45:42 am
Could be a bit under the weather. I think the independent sleep is pretty important in knowing she can get through the sleep cycles on her own and makes her nap lengths more useful in interpreting.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 11, 2016, 07:41:06 am
She fed fine the rest of the day. We stuck to 2.20 A time. Had one hour nap in the stroller, then the rest were 30 mins.

Think she was overtired for bed as she kept waking crying every 5 mins for first 20-25 mins after bed and needed assistance with resettling. Usually once she's calm I leave her awake and she drifts off to sleep within 5-10 mins...

I'm wondering if I should feed at the 3 am ish wake up? I know they say try to resettle and if not they must be hungry...and that's what is stopping me doing it as she does resettle, mainly herself but sometimes needing a little assistance, but always leaving her awake to drift off...
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 11, 2016, 19:10:01 pm
If she's settling in a short time (you're not up for and hour trying to get her back to sleep), I wouldn't start it. Is she pretty happy when she wakes at 3am? Could be that the first A time needs a little push.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 11, 2016, 19:36:37 pm
She just shuffles and makes a few loud exhales and a couple of whimpers...it's only occasionally I resettle her more often then not she does it herself.

Last night I didn't hear her at 3 but did at 1.30 and 2.30 then 6am. I left the 1.30 and 2.30 ones and she went back to sleep. More of a cry with the 6am one so I got her up to feed - she started falling asleep during first side so once she had finished popped her back in bed...took her 20 mins to stop shuffling and making noise. Checked on her about 40 mins later and she was awake sucking her thumb! I've not got her up yet (it's 7.35) as I'm just going to have a shower...but she's happy in her bed and very quiet.

Should I start the A time from when I get her out her bed or when I first noticed she was awake/still awake?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 12, 2016, 02:55:16 am
Today has been different, one 10 min naps , one 15 minand one 30 min nap...the 15 min was in the car and I waited I car at home for her to wake. The 10 min was in the stroller after every 2.20 A time. And the 30 min was after 2.15 A time...I'm soooo confused!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 12, 2016, 09:02:23 am
Very different day, about an hour and 40 mins after her 30 min nap she fell asleep for 2 hours and 20 mins!!?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 13, 2016, 19:54:44 pm
Very different day, about an hour and 40 mins after her 30 min nap she fell asleep for 2 hours and 20 mins!!?
Of her own accord? Maybe 1:40 is an A time you could shoot for after a short nap and see if that can be replicated?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 13, 2016, 22:51:08 pm
It was just after feeding, I helped resettle her as she woke a few times.

She was up this am at 5.45am as she woke at 5.15 (when I first heard her) and couldn't resettle her. I fed her and popped her on our bed to play. Was chatting to my hubby and looked back at her and she was asleep  that was 7.05... She slept til 7.50so 45 mins...

I tried 1 hr 40 after that for first nap...she looked a bit tired...rubbing eyes after her feed...she was quiet going into bed...usually she starts to cry when I put her sleep sack on. She was quite in her bed for 10 mins then cried and went hysterical. Even in my arms she didn't calm. I tried for 30 mins to settle her before getting her up. She's still up now so 3 hrs since waking. She's on my knee playing with her feet, and cooing....

Thinking of moving her to her cot and out our room in the next few weeks...will start with day naps.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 14, 2016, 00:24:37 am
So spotted her eyes rolling...so popped her to bed...there were tears but she went to sleep after approx 10 mins. She woke 30 mins later with a bit of a cry then is quiet, rubbing her eyes, little whimpers every now and then. She started calling out after 15 mins.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 14, 2016, 03:38:51 am
Gosh, its so hard to know without seeing her, sorry.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 14, 2016, 04:28:27 am
I think I need to work on her self soothing for day naps. She's obviously able to at night. She'll do longer sleeps in car or stroller - so movement helps there.

I'm struggling this week with her falling asleep feeding in the arvo. We are doing 3 hrly as she could only do 4 once in am then would lead to meltdowns three hour later, then every 2 hrs til BT. Tried 3.5 but similar just not as bad. 3 hrly works in her not losing it and still taking a good feed however finding in the arvo if I feed within an hour of her next nap time she falls into a deep sleep. If I don't move her she will sleep a long sleep, if I transfer her she will wake after 30 mins.

I spent 2 weeks consistently having all naps in her bed which pretty much meant not going anywhere as we live rural to try and break any movement association or comfort from occasionally sleeping on me...but doesn't seem to have worked obv last week I started trying stroller naps in the am.

I'm really not sure what to do, feel like I don't know my baby anymore and maybe should just accept the 30 min naps and be thankful for good night sleeps....
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 14, 2016, 19:42:53 pm
If you're feeling like that, it might be time to just go with the flow for a week or so and then work on resettling. If she has the skills, she will be able to do it one day. I think now you know her sleepy cues and hungry cues can be pretty similar, you can probably take a more relaxed approach of watching the clock til 2hr then watching her for tired cues (watch clock til 1:30 the watch her for tired cues if short naps). I think its worth feeding on WU from each nap, even if its been a little less than 3hr so you're not in that situation of wondering if she's hungry or tired.
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 14, 2016, 20:09:38 pm
Good idea. I'll give that a go! Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 27, 2016, 02:20:06 am
Hey becj86...

Think we are making progress. Had a 2 hour 20 min nap Sunday, 2x 1.5 and a 45 min nap Monday, a 45 min and 2 hr nap Tuesday and so far today, 45 mins and 1 hour 35 mins 😊
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: becj86 on July 27, 2016, 09:10:54 am
Wow, that is indeed progress :) Are you feeling more relaxed about it?
Title: Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
Post by: SarahE on July 28, 2016, 21:57:12 pm
Absolutely even when we have the occasional early night wake at 2 am!

We are feeding on demand as she only put on 300g in last 5 weeks - apparently That's a bit low, and we have moving to set naps, give or take 30 mins.

So we are up 7/7.30, we nap at 9/9.30, 12.30/1 and 4/4.30 with bed 6.45/7.15.  ;D