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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: FPT23 on July 23, 2016, 02:35:36 am
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Hellooooo! My LO is now 22 weeks.
Im still having issues with BT. Our naps are easy-peasy. For some reason or another... We can't nail BT and it can take HOURS settling or getting him down to sleep. (It's getting quite impossible with my toddler around now ::) )
I did attempt for the 12hr/12.5 day and BT still is pretty difficult. I do know that now we are in 3-2 territory as he's increased A times and resisting/pushing his last CN of the day. It's having to be AP or he had to have short napped his second nap. I began pushing his A times again as he began to short nap me in the mornings (45mins) ...he started long napping at 2.5 A now.
Here's he's EASY the past few days:
WU: 6:30 resettled 7:30
E 7:30
A (2.5)
S (PD 9:30...rolling. Lots of help) 10:00-11:20 happy
E 11:30
A (2.20)
E 1:20
S (PD 1:35.. Late.. OT) 1:40 - 3:05
E 3:05
A
S 5:30-6:15 (we woke up)
BT: struggled asleep by almost 9
NW: 2:45 feed
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WU: 6:15 resettled
E 7:45/50
A (2.25 PD- asleep 2.5)
E banana
S (PD 10:10) 10:15/20 - 11:45
E 11:50
A (PD 2.15- asleep 2.5)
E 12:45 banana
S (PD 2:00) fussy had to help in my arms- 2:15-3:45
E 3:50
A
E 5:00
S CN 6:30-7 (refused and pushed out)
BT: 9ish (lots of help)
NW: 3, feed
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WU: 8:15
E 8:15
A (2.20/2.25.. PD 2.15)
E 9:15 banana
S 10:35/40 - 12:10
E 12:20
A (2.5 asleep. PD 2.20)
E 2:00 banana
S (PD 2:30 accident! OT had to help in my arms) 2:40 -3:25 short OT nap
E 3:30
A
S 5:30
E 6:30
A
E nursed and was falling asleep 7:20
BT (pd 7:45..super fussy. Asleep by 8:30 in arms. OT)
If there is some suggestions with our BT it would be so great! BT is the hardest part of our day. He sleeps independently. I would like to add, our BT wind down is no different than nap... Do you think I need a desperate wind down? To distinguish..? ...normally he's super touchy.. He does best with a change of diaper, turn on white noise, a little cuddle and PD. I do the same for BT except I add a little bit of lavender oil on his feet for the scent.
Thank you! :)
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I find we need longer at bt in order for him to settle. So bath, quick story, feed and then down. If I skip bath because he's tired it backfires on me!
Looking at your EASY, it looks like he's having an awful lot of day sleep. I think the average sleep need is around 14hrs in 24 at this point. Would it be worth adding up how much he's actually sleeping and then making a plan from there? He could be UT at bt.
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Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
The day time sleep looks fine to me. Between 4-6 months you are looking at 15 hours minimum in a 24 hour period. When babies are on two naps they tend to get 3-3.5 day sleep and at least an 11/11.5 night and some do 12. It drops slightly between 6-8 months.
At nearly 6 months A times tend to be 2.45-3 hours so I think you may need to gently push the A times. You're in that tricky phase of needing to get rid of the CN but not got quite enough A time to fill the day yet without it and think there is a bit OT/UT going on.
That's amazing he's such a good indpendent sleeper!!!!
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MJ&N, Shiv52... Thank you so much for your replies :)
I remember we would do the bath for DS1 and he also needed it or it backfired! Haha! I decided not to do a bath as a wind down anymore b/c the time it takes and sometimes OT is inevitable when I have some later afternoon activities with DS1 (sports etc) and to put him through the whole bath deal when he's already OT became kind of tricky. He's also pretty touchy and not a fan of bath time so it didn't quite work for DS2. I wonder if I need to make a DIFFERENT wind down since it's the same as naps minus the lavender I add at BT.. Hmm...
You know, I've recently increased his A time to 2.5... He's "adjusting" ...but I figured perhaps he was OT at BT from the longer A time built up... I'll attempt a slightly longer A time for BT.. We've always had a tricky BT! ::) I feel I can't read him right and nail that A time. He acts OT... But maybe it's OS or something.... I'll give it a shot.
Yesssss the dreaded 3-2. I had a hard time w/ DS1... But DS2 is no where near as sensitive to OT as my first was. DS1 was also on shorter A times. We are most definitely in this tricky phase. He's starting to resist the CN but yes on some days he does need it.
Yeah he's pretty good at I.S... He's a pretty decent sleeper. Can't complain. He slept all the way to 4:30am and has been giving me 8am WUs. It's been glorious but I'm going to try not to get attached haha! ;) ...he was NWing me a few weeks back until I increased A times.
As far as A times, he's at 2.5 for the morning but I don't think it's realistic to expect 2.5 for EVERY A time, right? Even after his good naps? Yesterday we ended up with a shorter 2nd nap which I'm sure was OT off of a great first nap, and it was 2.5 A time? He woke up at 45 mins which indicates UT but he was suuuuper upset. He fell asleep at the restaurant (last CN) at exactly 2hrs... He was super fussy and passed out like a light! How should I work the A times in his day? Even after long naps? And short?
What do y'all suggest?
Thank you ;D
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Sorry lovely. I've been on holiday and no internet at all!! How've things been?
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Welcome back! :)
How was your vacation? :D
Things have improved. It turns out he was UT! He now falls asleep easily and quickly for the most part!
He started short napping our morning AGAIN, so I've pushed slightly to 2.45 for the morning and the rest of the day I stay at 2.5... And we were back to long naps.
he is in that tricky phase with that last CN... He also needs quite a bit of help for it too ::) ...but we've been managing. He's been having late WU times so when that happens he's on 2 naps. Some days I need the CN! You know this phase ::) haha. He's great at self soothing and has been doing between 10-11 hour nights for now.
let's see how long we last! I think he's going through a growth spurt? He's wanting to eat... A LOT haha.
Thanks for checking in. I'm sure I will be back soon with the next speed bump ;)
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Hi all, I'm back. Always struggling with BT! Naps are always a breeze but BT has us fooled. Would love some extra eyes to see what might be happening :)
Our current struggle is... Fussy at BT (I never know if it's a UT or OT situation), and waking again shortly after. Sometimes 30 mins, other times 1/1.5hrs-3hrs, after putting down for BT.
Sunday we fell off track after an issue with our MIL when my husband and I went out for dinner together (DS2 WU after BT and she decided to take him out to play and kept him up 3 or so hours without telling us. She didn't know haha and didn't want to bother us knowing we would've came back home early) and he's finally catching up from the OT. He had been giving me OT naps and yesterday slept all night 12 hours...today our naps were back on track. BUT, woke after 30 mins and didn't fall back to sleep until trying for 2 hours at BT :o ...I was surprised since finally our naps and days were back on track today.
Before the MIL issue, I was ready to increase his A times, since he was waking after BT. My last experience of him doing this, he was UT and once I pushed his A times, BT was a breeze! Going down shortly after with no help from me... Until now. For a week or so, he's been waking. As I was mentioning, I was going to increase his A time but the MIL issue occurred. So now I'm thrown. We are at 2.45 A time, had recently increased 2.45 for his second A time and 2.5 before BT. Any ideas? Here's some of his recent EASY:
8/3
WU: 6:40
E
A (2.45)
E
S 9:30-10:50
E
A
E
S (PD 1:25.. Seemed UT) 1:35-3:20
E 3:20
A
S 6-6:15 (upset! Fussy all night)
BT PD 8:50
8/6
WU: 7
E 7
A (2.45)
E 8:30
S (PD 9:40) 9:45-11:15 (i woke)
E 11:30
A (2.45)
E
S (PD 1:50) 2:00-4:00 (I woke)
E
A
BT: PD 6:50 (late on accident. Out)
OT- needed help, arms. 7:10
8/7
WU 7
E 7
A (PD 2.45- asleep 2.50)
E
S (PD 9:45) 9:50-11:20 (1.5)
E
A
E
S (PD 1:50 seemed tired. Needed help. Very Fussy) 2:00-3:30
E 4:00/4:20
A
BT (PD 6:20) asleep easy no help 6:30 ......WU 7:00 didn't sleep until 9:00
He had been at 2.45 great but now it seems like he can barely get to it... We fell off track and I would really love some eyes to go over and see what I'm missing.
Thank you! :D
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So the CN is gone? Maybe he's gotten a little OT. I wonder do you need a CN every 4-5 days to keep on top of OT? Your days look good to me. Any teeth or discomfort?
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Hi! Thanks for the quick response :)
It's gone on some days because then we end up with a super late BT... So if the CN lands after 6pm, i wont give it. We do EBT. Even though I prefer a later BT but as I said, it ends up being close to 9/10pm if I CN. Tricky transition stage ;) ::)
He's giving me NWs now I think due to OT.
If I'm trying to catch him up from OT, how do I go about handling his A time? I thought he had caught up but yesterday he short napped me again. I'm not quite sure... He's the type of baby that always took long naps and sleeps amazing. I had short naps only in the beginning but around 4 months he extended them well on his own.
When he does short nap it was usually 45 mins and I knew then to just push him an it worked. But I'm dealing with all sorts of OT and we can't get back on track.
I don't think it's discomfort? I've medicated and such since he's been gnawing away; like itchy gums. Hmm so not quite sure? He's pretty content and chill in the day despite the short naps. But we have always struggled with BT and now naps. Looks like he's in a spiral but I can't fix it
::)
Thoughts?
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Would a day following his cues help? Don't stretch him to 2.45 and just put him down to sleep when he shows he is tired?
Jus be careful of needing EBT too often as EBT can just become BT and you may then find he'll wake earlier as often they don't maintAin the longer night or start waking UT as their day gets shorter. How is his form when he's waking at night?
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Wait can you explain the EBT part again?
You think it's best to keep the CN and just continue doing 9/10pm BT for now until his A times increase? I would prefer 7/8pm BT since he's on the shorter side for nights..
I can't follow his cues well at BT.. The rest of the day he's always been a long napper, but I guess he was OT. Yesterday our easy was as follows:
8/12
WU: 7:15
E
A (2.50)
E 9:00
S (PD 9:55 fussy/crying but fell asleep on own) 10:05-11:45
E
A (2.35)
E
S (PD 2:15, calm.) 2:20-4:00
E 4:15
A (3hrs. PD 2.5)
BT: (PD 6:30 fussy need lots of help) BT 7
...NO NIGHT WAKES. Miraculously. Is there something you can spot from the last EASYs and this one that I might not? Haha! He did wake an hour after BT but settled himself (first time in a few days/week he did that without our help) and just stayed asleep until 6am this morning.
He was pretty tired early on and only made it to 2.5 A time rather than his usual 2.50 now in the mornings. Hopefully I don't get EWs! His day is going to be short since he woke early... :( ...I'm already on nap 2 and it's barely 12pm here
What do you think? :)
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EBT: This can be used as a way to combat OT when doing nap transitions if a baby tends to tack onto their night. If you get stuck in a cycle of not a long enough day and say bedtime is normally 8pm and for two weeks you do 7pm then you will likely will end up with that as BT as babies tend to stop tacking on and start to wake earlier. Does that make sense? EBT is meant to be used every so often to help the transition. Although if he tacks on and keeps his night longer then it is not an issue. Does that make sense? Lots of mums on here do early bedtime then come back and say wake up has gotten earlier so the day is even longer to normal bedtime.
I think that day looks good and with a tad more A time after that first nap then you will have a pretty good day I'd think. Thoughts?
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Thank you for your response :)
Hmm I'm soooo sorry I still don't understand that EBT but very interested! I've never heard of that! But your catching my attention bc I think it happened with DS1! And I don't want it again! What do you mean by "tack onto their night" ? So sorry I'm a ditz :( hehe.
I do want and prefer a 7/8pm BT so WU can be what it's been at 7/8am. He's not one to EW but the last two days has... (But yst I don't think counts as an EW since he slept 11 hrs straight?)
I did end up with a short day today yst with his 6am start--- he fell asleep at 7pm and woke until 6am today! So I guess he needed it. He's been NWing too so it's prb OT maybe?
Yes I agree with more A time after the second nap. I had initially gotten to 2.45 already as well and was actually moving to push in A to BT next... But the MIL accident happen and since then if I try to increase it, he short naps me. This was today's short day but I did give a CN but pushed his BT late
8/13
WU: 6:00
E
A
S 8:30-9:35 (baseball game; woke early)
E
A (2.45)
S 12:15-2:40 (I woke him up!)
E 2:45
A
S 5:45-6:15 (we were at a bday party so the nap ran a bit late)
E 6:20
A
BT: (PD 8:50, very fussy. Nursed to sleep) 9:00
I've always pushed for longer morning A time since his pattern always starts with short napping his first nap (45 mins) and then needs a push. It seems to always be that nap when I know he's ready for A time increase.. But I wonder, shorter morning A time and longer mid? Eh.
I can start again to push the second A and see if we get short naps again or not... Hmm. We just struggle soo much at BT. I can't nail it. Yet he's been a great I.S
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Hey sweetie, I pm'd you but didn't realize how BT was not so ideal!
And you are not a ditz. EBT was elusive to me.
Agree with Shiv about day 8/12 and A time push, but see your point about the OT. Should resolve in a few days especially with those good nights, which I hope continue.
Regarding how EBT works... with your easy below, say you pushed his second nap to 3:00 or so. Instead of giving a 3rd nap, he could go to bed at 5:30/6:00 and what sometimes happens is they 'tack on' that lost sleep time from 3rd nap to the beginning of the night, might possibly wake 9-11 hrs later (between 3-5am), but the sleep drive prevents a wake up, so it pushes it to their normal WU time, making the night sleep longer. Essentially they 'added or tacked' on to their normal night time hrs. with the EBT. They can tack on lost nap time or cumulative lost sleep on an EBT day.
How are your next few days? If he can get a few good morning naps, it might help push the second one out later.
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Hi Ginger! Yes I'll message you back! I just saw it right now! :) thanks for responding.
Soooo, is it best to NOT do an EBT at this stage? Should I keep the later BT? I'm still a bit fuzzy on that haha. I remember with DS1 we always did EBT and I accepted 5am wakes but if I knew there was a way to prevent that haha... I would've. How do I handle that and EBT then- sorry still a tad lost. Grr! I normally give the CN of it lands before 6pm... If not I just PD for the night- if I give a CN at or after 6pm he ends up with a super late BT... Is that better to do?
See, I'm not sure if I'm getting the A times right..... I don't think I'm hearing his initial WU time in the mornings and when I PD for his nap, or before, he's already OT. So I'm not sure if that's why his second A tends to be on the shorter end, b/c he was pushed in the morning, kwim? But yes, we've been getting long naps- should I push to 2.45 for second A if I get a 1.5 nap? I also think I should cap naps at 1.5.... He seems to do best that way but he's so tired and I feel bad waking him sometimes, especially lately ::)
I just don't get why our BT is so crazy... I can't get my finger on it. Naps are "normally" fine.. He does down independently, has always napped pretty well.... He's been giving me WUs 30mins-3hrs after BT PD. No matter the A time or the BT.
As far as his nights go, they haven't continued well. As I said above he's been NWing and takes about 2 hrs to go back to sleep! He's also waking at 5am and not resettling... Till like 1.5hrs later and then I end up with a super late wake for his day. It seems as though he's not getting enough night sleep lately. Sleeping maybe a total of 9-10hrs for his nights? Since he's waking.
He doesn't seem to have a set BT anyway. Yst he did 2 good naps but I didn't push out his 2nd A toooooo much, just a bit (slept 2hrs!) ...but his A time to BT was so nice. He was no where near tired. BUT, I PD, and was actually calm. I figured, this will be a good BT! Nope... Didn't sleep and ended up OT with an over 3hr A time and woke 2 hours later (around 10:45pm) and didn't go back to sleep until 11:30pm. Lots of trying and trying but didn't sleep.
I've never had so many issues with him before tbh! So it's throwing me for a loop! Those long nights were prb built up OT. I'm a little lost. BT is our biggest struggle :( ...
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Hugs hun, so confusing. Could this be a storm (wonder weeks)? I don't recall at the moment for around 22 weeks.
Nap transition phases are so tough.
EBT was reserved for nap refusal days and when he had built up OT. And during nap transitions, some people do 1-3 days of EBT, then once OT is curbed, resume regular BT.
I think someone said to help him catch up with OT first, then start pushing A??
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I just need help with this BT!!!!! :'(
Our entire day is just fine but he just screams and cries at BT taking SOOO LONG to put down!!!
Oh ok I see what you mean with EBT! Will do. This was our easy today- I pushed that second A time... So I assume that since I'm pushing the second A time he's gna prob need less at BT? During the day he's at 2.45 A time... Maybe BT 2.5?
This has been happening for so long I'm not sure I can handle this BT struggle much longer. He's just crying and crying :( ...I prob have caused AP now with all this help he's been needing. Could it be that he got used to us helping him at BT? Grrr I just don't know anymore?! He's never been such a struggle and I'm sure it's not pain or anything of that nature. He's happy as ever before BT and all day today (and majority of his days) too... Again... Here's our easy...
8/16
WU: 7:40
E
A
S (PD 10:20- fussy fell asleep on own) 10:30-12:10 I woke
E
A
S (PD 2:45 very fussy) 2:55-4:30
E
A
BT (PD 7:00 very hard bt) .......
I haven't posted BT since DH went in to help :( ...but we are going on 20 mins of non stop trying.. He's an I.S but I'm starting to think w everything, we are undoing that. Is it possible :((
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Update: fell asleep for BT at 7:20...
Woke after 1 hour... What is going on here :( !!!
Is that he's getting used to us helping.. Picking up and settling?? Could that have happened in just a few days. This is getting super difficult and draining especially with DS1 to PD as well :(
I'm overwhelmed I'm sorry :(
Venting....
It's like as soon as we walk into the room he starts crying
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Oh no... {{{{{hugs}}}}}. That must be so frustrating especially since he seems totally fine the rest of the day. Does he have NWs beyond the first part of the night?
I honestly don't know what might be going on. Perhaps just a phase needing some reassurance? I personally wouldn't sweat the propping as he seems like a good IS and can return to it.
Is he 6 mo yet? If he's close, the only other thing I would say to try is putting him down cold for bed after 3hrs of A. I vaguely remember my DS at some point needing a huge jump before bed. I just read the 3-2 transition article again. Anything else stand out to you?
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If you get a good second nap I wouldn't reducd the A time to bed. I do wonder if he's UT at bedtime and that's why the big fight then getting OT?
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Thank you ladies for the responses! :)
Ginger,
He just turned 6mths yst! I need to refer back to that resource! Will do soon. I was thinking reassurance too since it ONLY happens at BT and he's fine all day usually. No he doesn't do NWs anymore beyond his first part. He'll go on to sleep his 8/9 hour stretch after that.
Shiv,
You know, the first time we went through this, he needed a push in A times... And it worked. I just don't know how to go about increasing at this point b/c he SEEMS OT. Normally I would work with one A time, at a time for a few days and once he continued to nap well on that, I moved to the next A time.. Etc. he just seems grouchy as soon as we near 2.5 hr A time it seems. I know it's all about adjusting... But I'm having a hard time reading what this could be. This BT issue has never lasted so long and such a struggle. Yst after a short 40 min afternoon nap... He was a disaster come 2.5 but I kept him distracted and he went down on his own (quite a bit of fussing and crying) for the first time and didn't wake. It was at 2.40 A time on a 40 min nap... But he seemed a wreck during his A time. I mean, nothing was calming him down as if he was OT? And sure enough went down the "easiest" he has in days! But he short napped me quite a bit yst off of 3 hour A times... Which were unintentional. I PD sooner and he just wouldn't settle and pushed it out to 3.. But he gave me OT naps. What if he short naps the second nap? He's 2.45 for the day. On short naps I think 2.5? Or even 2.40? How would you suggest going about pushing gently at this point
Here's his EASY yst:
8/17
WU: 6:30 resettled 7:30
E
A (3hr..short napped)
S (PD 10:15, a little fussy. Slept on his own) 10:30-11:10 short nap resettled 11:55-12:40
E 12:45
A (3hr another short nap)
S (PD 3:15/20) 3:40-4:20
E
A (after a short nap: 2.40)
S (PD 6:50 extremely fussy but settled on his own) 7:05pm
No NWs until 5am feed
What do yall think? I would love to fix this before our trip out of town next weekend! ::) ;) at least managing the A times properly.
I do have one additional question if y'all can help too :)
So, when he has an EW at or around 5am, I normally nurse and PD again. He stays awake but he doesn't cry or anything and eventually goes back to sleep after 30 mins (totalling around 1hr including the feed) ...pushing his WU to 8:30/9am... Do you think this would affect him and cause more EWs? I wonder if he thinks of it as a first nap but is continued as his night sleep. Yesterday he went 7pm-5am... Then fell asleep no later than 6:30am (after nursing about 20/30 then PD) ....I know EWs can be caused from the morning nap coming too soon... Could this be an issue or let it be and enjoy the fact that he's resettling ;) haha!
Thanks ladies!
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How are things??? Hope it's well!
Did you try the push in A or kept constant?
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Hi! It's been awhile ;) haha!
Yes and eventuaaaaaally..... The problem has subsided. We are back to no wake nights haha for now ;) but man this lasted almost the entire month! Going to push again soon since his naps are again... Getting shorter and he's taking a bit longer to fall asleep. Babbling and such. I think he's more LSN. He's always been on higher A times. Think he's ready for 3.10/15 here soon. He's 3hrs on all A times, 2.45 IF he short naps or IF he had an off nap day- 2.45 works for BT.
So far so good.. Let's not jinx it haha! I was wondering if you could possibly help me out w/ my question on my last post. The last paragraph there ;) thank you!
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Great news!
Wrt to EW, if you're aiming for relatively consistent days and BT, then I would try to at least wake him at the same time each morning +/-30mins regardless of night sleep. As you already know, this helps set his body clock. If his mroning naps are consistently shorter, then maybe the lie ins are affecting the am nap. How have the past few days been?
I bet you've alredy considered the other causes of EW at 5am... room temp, ambient noise, light, etc... Most of the time for us it was developmental, OT, or discomfort.
(Fyi, we lost our internet access again so it's been more difficult to get on. I will be back for sure but please bear with me!)
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Thanks for your help. He was never one to have many EWs but lately is.
I believe it's what u mentioned... Developmental OT or discomfort. I think it's developmental w us. It's not technical an EW since he's asleep from 6:30pm or so. I would love 7-7 haha! But of course... Can't expect anything out of them ;) haha