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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: ecwinters on July 28, 2016, 15:38:12 pm
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Hello!
My DS is 16 months and showing signs of needing to go to 1 nap during the day.
I am wondering if anyone who has been through this can possibly give me some advice please? I started trying to transition from 2-1 naps about 2 weeks ago, by capping the first nap to 40/45 mins. I did this for over a week but DS didn't lengthen out his 2nd nap (as I'd hoped) - bedtime crept earlier to make up for the loss of daytime sleep - and wake ups in the morning became earlier too :( Then he got ill and so I let him go back to his usual hour in the morning. And now we are back to this:
WU: between 5-6am (I get him up at 6)
Nap 1: 9:30-10:30 (wake him up)
Nap 2: 2:20-3:40 at the latest (I wake him up here anyway, so sometimes he only gets two, 1 hour naps).
Bedtime: No later than 7pm. He is normally asleep by 7:15pm.
But I know he won't do this forever as he'd started to massively play around for the 2nd nap (which is why we cut the 1st nap originally!). I'm not sure whether his early waking is OT or just because he's had enough sleep. On days where he gets 2 hours and 20 minutes in the day, I don't ever expect him to do an 11 hour night as he normally caps his sleep at 13 hours (in a 24 hour period). I'd LOVE him to do more, but that's just the way he is :)
So, my new plan is to push out the morning nap, which might suit him better as he hates a long A time to bedtime, and gradually cap the afternoon nap. It sounds simple, but I'm getting myself all confused about it!!! We did a similar thing for the 3-2 transition but his A times are all different now. It was quite messy though and took AGES!
If I pushed the 1st nap later by just 15 minutes (to 9:45am), should I let him sleep for longer or still give him 1 hour? I plan to do 15 minutes every few days as he likes things to be gradual! Also, would I need to move the 2nd nap later too, or do you think he'd be OK going down at the same time as before?
If I need to move out the 2nd nap as well, then he'd really only have the time to do two 1 hour naps in the day or bedtime will get even later. His bedtime is pretty much always between 6:30-7pm unless I need to put him down really early and he does better with slightly earlier bedtimes. Also then his day would be even longer! But I've also read that pushing out the 1st nap makes them sleep later in the mornings - does anyone have any positive experiences of this? The latest I can EVER remember DS sleeping (since he was newborn) is 6:15am!
Any other advice would be very appreciated! Thank you.
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Essentially you need to keep one nap long and choose which to cap. If you want to keep a long morning nap then you let him sleep as long as he wants (up to 2h) and then do another full (or nearly-full) A time - depends if he'll go down a bit UT - and do a short second nap, and short A to bedtime. At this age DDs routine was
WU 6.30
Nap 10.30-12
Nap 4/4.30 for 30-45 mins depending on exactly when it happened
BT 7, usually asleep by 7.30
You do run the risk as he tends to be up early that the long morning nap will perpetuate that, but if you consistently push the nap later and limit daytime sleep by cutting that second nap to a catnap hopefully the mornings will start to improve :)
It's worth noting with this approach that pm nap refusal is a common problem - in which case make very good use of EBT if he tacks on well!! Or if that is a total fail, you can always switch round to a short am, long pm nap (often the better approach for early wakers or pm nap refusers) until he is properly ready to make the jump. Oh and just for encouragement - both of mine had EW phases pre-2-1 but both sleep until a reasonable time now we are past that (or at least stay in bed quietly and don't wake me!!)
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Thanks - this is very helpful!
Your DD's routine is really what I'm aiming to get to. So, am I right that she woke by about 5pm and then her A time to bed was about 2 hours/2 hour 30 minutes? I'm not sure what DS's A time would be after a short PM catnap. I guess I just need to experiment!
Did you just keep bedtime the same even if her catnap varied slightly?
DS has always been an early riser - but I'm happy to hope that he may sleep later once on 1 nap! EBT works well with DS too, so that's OK. I wanted to do the short AM - long PM thing originally but he likes his AM sleep too much :)
Just one thing - I don't want to suddenly push out his AM nap by half an hour so will do 15 minutes I think first. Should I still cap it at an hour, or let him do slightly longer? And, as this means there is less time for a longer PM nap, it's going to end up being only an hour if I'm going to wake him up at his usual time.
WU: between 5-6am
Nap 1: 9:45-10:45???
Nap 2: 2:35-???
Bedtime: No later than 7pm. He is normally asleep by 7:15pm.
What do you think? Thanks so much!
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So, am I right that she woke by about 5pm and then her A time to bed was about 2 hours/2 hour 30 minutes?
Yes exactly :) the short A time after 2 longer ones seemed to suit her just fine. We didn't vary bedtime a lot, it was always 6.30-7pm, most often 7pm when we were in this stage of the 2-1.
If you are keeping the long morning nap then don't wake him at all, just let him sleep as long as he wants. Providing it's a decent length nap then give him another full A time or near enough and then wake him up from the second nap if you need to preserve bedtime. Remember you don't necessarily have to wake him by 3.40pm - that may be the case after a long nap to allow enough A time, but as you can see from my DDs routine after a shorter catnap he will likely be happy to go to bed after a shorter A time. So just as an example your day could be something like:
WU 5-6am
Nap 9.45-11.15/30/45 (I'd wake at 2h if he gets that far)
Nap 3/3.30ish for 45 mins or so
BT by 7pm
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Thanks that makes sense. He doesn't like being woken up from his morning sleep - not sure how long he'd do if I let him sleep - maybe 1 hour 20/30 minutes - I'll have to see! If he did that, he could definitely do a 4 hour A before nap 2.
At the moment, I'm still putting him down at 9:30-10:30 and then about 2:20-whenever (3:40 maximum). When would I change this? It's so hard to tell, as he gets days when he plays around a bit for nap 2 (but always goes down eventually) - and he is still going down happily at 9:30/35 for nap 1. He's never skipped a nap. He wakes early some days, but not others - so it's inconsistent. Do I wait until he starts resisting going down at 9:30am? I know he's late going to 1 nap really (he'll be 17 months on the 23rd August) but he was late going to 2 naps, so it kind of makes sense!
Thanks very much!
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If it's working for now don't change it - the time to change is when you run into problems, either early waking, nap resistance or bedtime refusal x
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I just wanted to share my experience which I think can be helpful.
Around 16 months I had to move my DD to one nap. I felt that there was just not enough day time to give her 2 naps without constantly waking her up. Intuitively I knew, She was waking up underslept all the time, especially like your boy from her 1 st nap (one caveat, she never would go to sleep easily next time if she was not tired enough, so taking that 2nd nap was becoming a struggle for us too, her 1 st nap was easy though)
It was stressful to do that in just one shot from 4 hrs A to 6 hrs A, because I didn't want to rush before 18 months and I was always panicked about OT. But then...we tried to keep her up for 6 hours (slightly less if she didn't wake up in the morning happy) and put her to bed for nap and it got extended to 2 hours in just a few days.... We did some early night bedtime when she looked too tired but it was very quick. We never looked back at 2 naps. Just made little tweaks around 1 nap schedule.
It was so easy, I could not believe, the easiest transition for us. She was rested during day and night.
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If it's working for now don't change it - the time to change is when you run into problems, either early waking, nap resistance or bedtime refusal x
We kind of have early waking - he normally does just slightly less than an 11 hour night but this may be what he needs with over 2 hours sleep in the day. But this is definitely my DS:
She was waking up underslept all the time, especially like your boy from her 1st nap
Yesterday when I went in to wake him up from his first nap, he lay back down and said 'night night'!!! Then cried when I got him up. I felt really bad but I just can't let the day get longer than 13 hours really or he won't get enough night sleep.
Bedtime is fine - we sometimes get nap resistance for nap 2 (but only for about 20 minutes) and he goes down eventually. So, it's mainly just the schedule thing, and not being enough hours in the day! At the moment it would be hard to push his 1st nap as he goes down in 5 minutes of being in his cot - he's really tired. This is after about a 4 hour A time depending on when he's woken up. I may try letting him sleep for longer in the morning, and then only giving him an hour in the afternoon to see if that makes him happier - he prefers his morning sleep. What do you think?
I'm glad the 2-1 transition was so easy for you though, Ele. I think DH would love to go cold turkey but I think DS wouldn't cope with it particularly well!
Thanks both of you.
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Just to say that giving him a longer 1st nap didn't really work with our current A time.
He did a 1 hour 10/15 minute 1st nap and woke happy...but I couldn't get an hour out of him for nap 2. He went down fine after just under 4 hours A time, but only did 45/50 minutes - was just not tired enough I don't think. He was quite happy when I got him up but I'll have to give him a slightly earlier bedtime tonight and hope he does more than an 11 hour night to catch up a bit.
Maybe the longer 1st nap will only work if he goes down a bit later - and then a shorter 2nd nap will be OK as it will be closer to bedtime anyway?
it was nice not to have to wake him up from either nap today though :)
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Yes I think you will have to extend the first A time to get a properly long first nap. I wouldn't do an early bedtime particularly on that day, that was about our standard from 8 months on!!
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He was fine with the slightly EBT and slept for over 11 hours, in fact I had to wake him up! But I don't like doing it too often as sometimes he then shifts to even earlier waking.
So, I pushed the 1st nap out by 15 minutes yesterday:
WU-6:00 ish
Nap 1-9:45-11:00 (woke up on his own)
Nap 2-2:50-3:40/45 (he woke up and then resettled but I went in and got him up anyway to keep bedtime at a normal time). I guess I'm going to have to experiment with the A time between nap 2 and bedtime now the nap is shorter. He doesn't do well with later bedtimes even if he's had a bit more sleep in the day so I like to keep bedtime before 7.
Night was fine and he woke up at 5 to six this morning, so I will try the same thing as yesterday again today.
Thanks again for your help.
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That's great, keep moving forwards :)
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Hello
Just checking back in (probably for reassurance really!)
We've now got days like this:
WU - between 5:30/6am
Nap 1 - 9:45-11:15 (wakes up on his own)
Nap 2 - I put him in his cot about 3pm but he plays around A LOT! Sometimes he's had time for 45 minutes before I have to wake him but yesterday he didn't go down until 3:45pm and so I only gave him until about 4:20pm.
Bedtime - 6:30pm ish depending on nap 2 (but I've been doing 2-2.5 A time) and then he has been asleep by 7.
Do you reckon it's time to push nap 1 out to 10am? At the moment he's lying in his cot laughing and talking and so not sleeping!!! I feel a bit mean. He'll be 17 months on Tuesday so he should be nearly there (in terms of age). DH reckons we should try:
WU - between 5:30/6am
Nap 1 - 10:00-11:30 (or longer if he'll do it)
Nap 2 - sometime after 3:30pm for 30 minutes
Bedtime - 6:30pm ish (2 hours after waking up from nap 2)
Do you think a 2 hour A time after a 30 minute nap is too little? He never goes to sleep straight away so it could end up being between 2 hours-2.5 hours anyway.
Any comments would be really appreciated. How quickly do you push out nap 1? Or does it just depend on how it's going? I get really worried about OT nights making his EWUs worse as he's really sensitive to that, but can't see another solution now unfortunately. It may just be time to go for it.
Thanks so much!
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Update: he refused to sleep (he's actually never refused a sleep - well, not since we transitioned to 2 naps). So, I got him up, gave him a quick play in the garden, tea and then he was in bed by 5:30pm! Asleep by 5:55pm. Will be interesting to see what happens tonight - he's NEVER been awake for that long in his life (6 hours and 40 minutes) :o
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I would get on with moving the morning nap forwards. If you are getting nap refusal in the pm I would be tempted to just get on with the transition now given his age - I'd be more cautious if he were younger but since he's a sensible age for one nap I think he will probably handle it ok. I would aim for 15 mins later morning nap every 3-4 days. Once you get it to around 11.30am you will probably manage most days with just the one and an early bedtime x
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Thanks. He did an OK night - woke at 5:30am (which is normal!) and was up at 6am.
Tried 10am for nap 1 but he only slept until 11:05 - woke quite miserable and has been really hyper since then. I think he's OT. I have put him down for a 2nd nap, hoping for an hour, but he's just shrieking away and playing around and I can't see him sleeping at all to be honest. He's not really a car or buggy sleeper so I can't even use that as a back up method - although if this carries on I may have to try!
What do you do if they only do 1 nap for about an hour!? I can try EBT again but at some point he's going to need to catch up. I'm worried about carrying on pushing out the nap if he's already OT. Sorry - I'm panicking a bit here now as refusing a nap is SO unlike him.
Thanks for all your help.
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Hugs, and deep breaths - it will come right in the end :) Nap transitions are always tough and some OT is inevitable. Often whatever you do at these times will be 'wrong' and you will end up with some messy days. All you can really do is EBT as much as possible (if LO is good at making up sleep that way), and push on forwards to the other side. Refusing a nap when you've always had a good napper is very unnerving, I totally agree - but if it makes you feel better it is very normal and common in transition. The logic behind pushing forwards even if he is OT is that if he's going to refuse the afternoon nap anyway, you're better getting the one nap closer to the middle of the day so that's it's not so long a stretch to bedtime. You also have better chance of resettling a short nap if the first A time is longer. The alternative I guess is that you keep your 10am nap but wake him after 45/30/20 mins, and hope that means he doesn't refuse a second one. Ideally you have a pretty short second A time after the first nap to prevent OT.....could be a bit tricky and also quite miserable given how early he is waking though :-\ I think at some point in the past I did see someone here doing something like:
WU 5.30
Nap 10-10.30
Distraction and food galore!
Nap 12.30-2/2.30
BT 6.30/7ish
But I suspect that middle bit of the day would be really rough :( We did something a bit similar with the 2-1 when DS was early waking but basically just went for an 11.30/45am set nap, with a quick 15-20 min catnap around 9/9.30 if he needed (basically just made sure were were out and about in car/pushchair at that time so he could doze if he wanted to). That worked ok, maybe you could try it?
I guess just from the outside I'm thinking it's not like he's a 12 month old (or earlier!) and likely to really struggle with just going for it. My feeling would be get that nap to 11/11.30 within the next 2-3 weeks and go for early bedtime, and you may well be all done and dusted sooner rather than later x
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Thanks so much! He did in the end go down after 4h10m A time for a 2nd nap - but was definitely OT as he squeaked at 30 minutes and then woke up after 40/45mins. So yesterday looked like:
WU: 5:30 (in cot until 6)
Nap 1: 10-11:05
Nap 2: 3:15-4:00
In bed at 6:10 and asleep by 6:40pm.
He woke at 5:20 this morning which isn't TOO bad, given he had a relatively early night. Was very quiet though until about ten to 6 so he could have been dozing - I try and not look too much at the monitor that early in the morning!
He seems less OT today. There's so much going on for him - he's got a week to go of this last wonder week, he's growing 2 teeth and now this sleep transition. Teeth have never really disrupted his sleep before though, so I think most of it must be down to this transition. And, getting to be a toddler! He's 17 months today.
Originally (about a month ago) I tried a short 1st nap, but what happened was he didn't extend his afternoon nap like I'd hoped (just did about an hour) - so I ended up with 2 short naps and a very early bedtime - I did try it for about a week! He hated being woken up after his morning nap as well. So I think what we're doing now is the way to go.
I chickened out of a 10am nap today (!) and did 9:45 - but he only did an hour which is what he usually did when he used to go down at 9:30am (when we were properly on 2 naps). He woke happy and I think wasn't tired enough to do longer. DH is home for a week and is much braver than I am with the sleep thing so we will try 10am tomorrow. He went down for his 2nd nap easily today - but that's because nap 1 was shorter. Anything over an hour seems to make him far less happy to take a 2nd nap! Is it OK to keep pushing out the nap but do the odd 2 nap day to catch up if he's getting OT?
I can envisage getting to 11am in a couple of weeks - would this look like:
WU: 5:30-6:00
Nap: 11:00 - 1??? I can hope for 2 hours!
Bed time: 6:00? Or 5:45? I suppose I could start with a really EBT and then as he gets used to it he could do slightly later maybe? I can't really expect him to regularly do more than an 11.5 hour night with a 2 hour nap as he averages 13 hours in every 24 usually.
I think ideally he'd be better on 11:30 for his nap so he'd have the shorter A to bed time as he likes that. So I will have to keep pushing it out.
Thanks so much again!
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Didn't make it anywhere near 10 am this morning - he did a horrible short night (7pm-5:15am) and was clearly exhausted by 9 am. So, I put him down about 9:25 and he went to sleep really quickly. Nights shorter than 10.5 hours are normally OT for DS. Hopefully he'll catch up a bit today and then we can try 10am tomorrow.
He does really well with set nap times so I hope I'm not confusing him with moving the times of his 1st nap back and forward. Ideally I'd like to get to 10am and stay on it for a few days to see how he adjusts.
I've got no way of resettling him when he wakes early as he's a totally independent sleeper and if I go in, it signals up time! The only thing I can do is tell him it's still sleepy time (over the monitor) when he wakes. He usually lies back down again but he rarely goes back to sleep - just lies and sucks his thumb and chats a bit!
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I do think you might just need to grit your teeth and get on with it :-\ He is having a really early first nap now and that may well be prolonging the early starts. I hope he does a good day for you today and you can start pushing forwards tomorrow x
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Thanks - yes that day he slept for 2 hours and 45 minutes (1 hour 45 in the morning and an hour in the afternoon). I think something was wrong other than OT as he was just plain miserable and had a bit of a temperature.
Back to normal yesterday - he woke at 5am but despite this we pushed to 10am for nap 1. It was fine! He was tired, but not too much. So we had
WU: 5:05 am
Get up: 6am
Nap 1: 10:00-11:20
Then he refused nap 2 on a 4 hour A time.
Bedtime: 5:30pm and asleep at 5:45pm.
Woke at 5:15 am this morning.
So over the 24 hours it was nearly 13 hours, which is his normal amount of sleep.
Today was
WU-5:15am
Get up-6am
Nap 1: 10:00-11:30
Nap 2: we tried 4 hours 15 A time and he went down at 4 pm (so, 4 hours 30 A time). But there's not really time to even let him have a 30 minute nap as I don't like his day getting longer than 13 hours - he never likes it much. I'm going to try a 20 minute nap and then try bedtime at around 6pm. Not sure what will happen! 20 minute naps worked for us when we were doing the 3-2 so I'm hoping they still will!
Having survived two 1 nap days - I think I should just push on to getting his nap at 11am. Then we'd not have a catnap at all by then I think.
Ideally I'd like him to wake up at 6am again (it's been creeping earlier and earlier)
Nap 1 at 11-1 or even 11:30-1:30
Then bedtime about 6 or 6:30
How quickly could we push to 10:15am? Do people usually do about 3 or 4 days on each time, before pushing on?
Thanks for all your encouragement!
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Yes I'd say 3-4 days then add 15 mins x
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Thanks.
The catnap didn't really work well unfortunately, as we did this:
WU: 5:15 (get up 6:00)
Nap 1: 10-11:30
Nap 2: 4:00-4:20/25 (was really hard to wake him up!)
Bed time: 6:15 and asleep by 6:45
Then he woke at 5am this morning! So a really short night and not enough sleep overall.
DH has just told me (he did bedtime the day before, when he refused the 2nd nap) that DS did an OT wake up 30 minutes after going down at night that evening. So, I wouldn't want to do too many of those sorts of days either as the OT might build up? There doesn't seem to be a good solution!
Today has gone horribly wrong so far as he's just woken 50 minutes into nap 1. So we're looking at a 2 nap day, but realistically nap 2 is going to be fairly rubbish.
He's waking SO EARLY! I can cope with 5:30am but 5am is really starting to be tiring - he hasn't woken later than 6am for months but this 5am thing is fairly recent. Do you think his body clock is just set like it? Whatever time I put him to bed he seems to wake between 5-5:30am. His day is so long as well, I'm not sure that's great either.
I guess there's nothing we can do though except to push out the nap still!?
Thanks.
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Just a quick thought...
If I think about it logically, then he's actually doing nearly a 5 hour A time to his first nap. I know he's in his cot for a bit before I get him up at 6am, but he's definitely awake. If his 5am wake up was translated to 7am, then things would start to look normal:
7am-wake up
12-1:30-nap (hopefully extending to 2 hours)
7pm-bedtime and hopefully asleep by 7:30pm
Is it asking for trouble doing something like this if he does a decent 1st nap?
5am-wake up
10-11:30-nap (hopefully extending to 2 hours)
5pm-bedtime and hopefully asleep by 5:30pm
So at least he's on a more normal length day and we get some consistency? And then try pushing out the nap bit by bit to hopefully move his schedule forwards to a more acceptable time? Or would this MASSIVELY backfire!?
Thanks so much and sorry for another post.
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No that could definitely work (though if you get an EW on that routine it will be VERY early!) You could basically approach it like daylight savings :) I guess my way of moving that nap out 15 mins every few days is not totally dissimilar, though avoid the super-early bedtime. Really with this transition it is a case of try it and see. My only note of caution would be if you go for the 5-5 routine don't get stuck there for long. Early starts can be tough to change x
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Thanks! I'd really only want to stick with it for a week or so. But yes - 4:30am wake ups would be awful! When I did the 20 minute catnap yesterday it didn't really work and I think if he does a 1 hour 30 minute (or more) nap I may just try for a 1 sleep day and an EBT.
What does a 'normal' 1 nap day look like when they are just starting out and haven't got the hang of sleeping for 2 hours flat out yet? Do you try a longer A time in the morning than the afternoon? And keep the day 12 hours or less?
Thanks again!
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Apologies for adding another post - today was a bit weird as it was the first day I felt that there wasn't time for a 2nd nap without pushing the day out too far. The last two days have gone:
WU-5:40
Get up-6:00
Nap: 10:15-11:35/40
Tried for a 2nd nap and he dozed off for 5 minutes from 4:10-4:15pm then sat up and was perfectly happy!
Bed time - 5:30 and asleep at 5:45
WU: 5:15 (yuck! But had done 11.5 hours at night)
Get up-6:00
Nap: 10:10-11:50 (longest so far!)
DH then decided that DS didn't need a 2nd nap at all. I wanted to try in the hope it would give him some quiet time at least, but he won. We did in fact do a quiet half hour reading before tea. Not sure whether not giving him the opportunity for a nap was the right decision but DH felt it would have made the day too long, given the EWU time.
Bed time: 5:30 and asleep at 5:55. I felt he was a bit too tired, so we'll see how he is in the morning. We may have to do a 2 sleep day to catch up.
What does this look like to you please? Our plan is to push the nap to 10:30 in 2 more days time. But we'll see how he goes. Does pushing the nap out later really make him wake up later? We need to really get him onto a 6am WU routine eventually - that would suit us fine (and was what we used to have).
Thanks so much.
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Hi
Just wondering if someone could please give me an 'ideal' schedule for 1 nap? With a wake up of 6am ideally. DS likes 13 hours sleep over the course of 24 hours - very rarely does more so it's no good hoping for a 12 hour night! He's also unlikely to nap longer than 1.5 hours, at least at the moment. Is it even possible to get him on a 1 nap routine?
I'm actually in despair as today he's only slept for 1 hour in the morning (10:15-11:15) and refused any further naps! He's massively overtired but just can't go to sleep :(
Thanks so so much!
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'Ideal' is a tough word to be honest as it will be different for every LO. But I'd probably shoot for
WU 6
Nap 11.30/12 as long as he will do
BT 6.30/7
I know we've covered this a lot but why not just skip this gently pushing phase, go straight to 11.30 nap and try the brief (15 mins) in the car catnap around 9/9.30am to get you there until you can push through?
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It's tricky to say "ideal" as different kids do so many different things..check this thread out for all the variations! What does your toddlers day look like?
I think such an early morning nap might make it tricky to do a 1 nap day just yet though...although I have heard of some LOs who like a long morning nap and long afternoon to bedtime..but it sounds like your DS got OT with that.
I saw your post about micro naps...I posted on that but, if your DS can't last until lunchtime yet for his nap, the micro nap might work for you..
At 15-16 mo my DS was doing this set nap pattern:
Wu:6-6.30
Nap 1- 9.35-9.50 (in cot at 9.30)
Nap 2- 1-3
BT: 7pm
He kept doing that until 18mo when he just stopped falling asleep in the morning and went straight to just taking his nap 1-3pm.
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Thanks so much both of you.
I think I am coming to the same conclusion - DS just can't do 1 nap yet. On 1 nap days, he'll do an 11.5 hour night, but that still gives him an early wake up as his 'cycle' ends up being 23.5 hours! And yes, I think trying to push the nap is getting us entirely nowhere!
So, I'm going to try the mini cat nap thing in the morning to take him through to a fixed nap somewhere in the middle of the day. He won't sleep in the car, but I think he'll be OK going down in his cot - won't like being woken up though! I may have to have the raisins ready...
I'm thinking about:
WU - realistically between 5:30-6:00
Catnap - 10-10:30???? But I may have to play around with this.
Nap - 12:30-2pm
Bedtime - aim to be asleep by 6:30.
The only issue is that with 2 hours of sleep in the day, he'll probably only do an 11 hour night, which would make his WU time at 5:30 still when I really want him to stretch to 6am. But maybe I can put him down a little later for bedtime gradually, so we shift it?
Thanks so much both of you - DH is sick of sleep talk so I'm so grateful!
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Yes play around with it..but you might find that a morning CN needs to shorter than 30mins at this stage ..try it though & you'll know if you get a short 2nd nap or nap resistance for a 2nd nap
Xxx
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Well we tried a 20 minute cat nap:
WU: 5:45
Catnap: 10:05-10:25
Then I put him down aiming for a 12:30 nap and he's still shrieking away :( He's clearly overtired as his wind down turned into screaming when it's usually quite calm. I'm now worrying about a day with only 20 minutes of sleep!!!
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Hugs, I think perhaps too little, too late. I'd have gone for the catnap earlier and then the 'main' nap earlier too. But just hang in there, this transition is rubbish but you will get through x
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Thanks! He did eventually go down so the day looked like this:
WU-5:45 (he did a 12 hour night after only 1 hour of sleep yesterday!)
Catnap-10:05-10:25am
Nap-12:55-2:30pm
In bed for 6:20 and asleep by 6:40pm
He was better after the long sleep but still a bit OT I think. Bedtime was quite peaceful though luckily!
DH and I thought about the positioning of the main nap and chose 12:30 because it will get him through to bedtime at 6:30pm even if he only does 1.5 hours of sleep. I could try 12:00 but if he woke at 1:30pm then bedtime would have to be 6pm? I know he can do 5 hours A time as he's managed 6 hours on days when he refuses the PM nap but I think that's a bit too much to repeat every day. He's always liked less A time in the afternoons.
It's a bit of a juggling act as he really does seem to cap sleep at around 13 hours in 24 so if he's doing nearly 2 hours in the day he will only do 11ish at night. I don't want him going down at 6/6:15 really as he'll still wake before 5:30am.
Do you think a longer catnap (30 mins) might help him get to 12:30pm without being OT? It's hard to move it reliably earlier as since we've been pushing the nap out he's got used to going down at 10 or later for his first nap. I put him in his cot at 9:50 this morning but he didn't go down until 10:05. He won't sleep in the car or the buggy! I'm right in thinking that I wouldn't want a bigger gap between the catnap and the main nap, yes?
DH thinks we don't have enough 'data' and wants to do the same thing tomorrow and the next day at least before we change anything - given that DS hasn't gone down for a nap straight after lunch in a long long time! His body clock must be a bit confused. But he gets far less worried about sleep than I do!
Thanks so much for helping with this.
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As Katherine has said it's all trial and error with transitions
Most LOs are down to 1 nap by 18mo though so he's quite close tog that and a 30min CN seems quite long at this stage of the transition.
I wonder whether the shrieking at 2nd nap could be UT rather than OT? My DD shouts very loudly and angrily if I try her too early for her nap.
I would be inclined to agree with your DH about giving the same routine another try today but possibly aiming for a 1pm 2nd nap...unless you feel your DS is showing clear tired signs before then...in which case try either a 30 min morning CN or Katherine's advice on a shorter earlier CN and earlier main nap could work better :)
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Thanks!
Rubbish night here - woke at 5am!!! Did way under his usual 13 hours of sleep in 24 hours - more like 12 hours 15 mins.
Assuming he's OT but I have no idea why last night was WORSE than the day before yesterday when he only did 1 hour of sleep in the morning!
Not sure what to do when he wakes so early - DH is all set to do the same as yesterday but I want to pull everything forward by half an hour and see where we get to.
He doesn't do great tired cues - he'll rub his eyes if he's really tired (but he usually won't do this until you start putting him down for a nap) but if he's OT then he normally just gets hyperactive and will cry more often. This is what he was doing yesterday lunchtime so I'm assuming he was OT but I could be wrong! If he's UT he normally will play in his cot and get upset eventually or just drift off to sleep.
This is slowly driving me insane! Thanks so much for continuing to post.
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You have my sympathy. My DD is also in the 2-1 transition at the moment and it feels like a very movable feast with lots of UT and OT.
How did the rest of today go?
I find that a broken night and early waking usually means OT has built up. I usually try everything to get DD back to sleep if she wakes as early as 5am..but if that fails I do a short, early CN as Jessmum suggests.
If your DS is getting OT, I do wonder whether it would help to try Jessmum's suggestion of a 15min CN starting sometime between 9.30-9.45, up by 10, or after 15mins depending on which comes first! And then trying for a long nap starting around 11.30/12? With a 12 start, even if you only get 1.5hrs, do you think you could still probably stretch your DS to a 6.30 BT?
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^^^yup, we did, and just hung in there for it to settle. Once the morning wake up improves it gets easier yk? I tend to agree with your DH really, I think chopping and changing in the hope of 'catching them up' really just doesn't work in these phases. I would make yourselves a plan - say 12pm nap +/- 15 mins catnap mid-morning, with 6.30pm bedtime. And just stick it out for a while to see what happens. Sometimes when we set the rules it allows LO to start regulating their sleep a bit rather than both us and them trying to compensate, if that makes sense.
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Thanks both of you.
We're not getting broken nights but normally less than 10.5 hours means OT for us. I can't resettle DS - if he cries I go in and he'll just lie down and say 'night night'! But this morning there was no crying, just chatting and rolling.
However, today was OK. We pulled everything back by 15 minutes but otherwise kept it the same as yesterday:
WU-5am but got him up at 6am (at least he's resting)
Catnap: 9:45-10:05
Nap: 12:20-13:45 (put him down at 12:05 and he was getting too tired really. I think 2 hours is the maximum between a 20 minute catnap and the next sleep really).
In bed at 6:15 and asleep by 6:30pm. Didn't seem OT tonight and was happy all afternoon. We shall see what happens! reckon that actually we could stretch the afternoon slightly more...but I wouldn't want to stretch the day longer with such an early wake up.
DH is very happy that you agree with him and we'll be trying the same tomorrow! :)
Thanks both of you.
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Well he's been awake for 45minutes already! Woke at 4:45am. Surely there's something really wrong here as he's never woken quite this early!
I have to admit I have no idea what to do!
Was his day too long yesterday for the amount of sleep?
WU-5am
Catnap-9:45-10:05
Sleep-12:20-13:45
Bed (asleep) - 6:25/30
WU-4:45am!!!
He's now only really getting 12 hours of sleep in 24 which is suddenly much less than he usually gets.
Would you carry on doing the same thing today with the morning catnap? It seems to be making it all worse...
Thanks so much.
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I would have said that was a NW, not morning.....could you not resettle? How do you deal with the early mornings at the moment, as in what do you do when he wakes and when do you actually get up to start the day?
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There's nothing I can do unless he goes back to sleep! He didn't cry so I didn't get him up until 6am as usual. He just rolled around, rubbed his eyes, talked etc. Got a bit miserable about 5:50 so I talked to him over the monitor. If he sits up I tell him it's still sleepy time and he'll lie back down but he didn't sit up this morning.
Did the same thing as yesterday but rubbish naps today:
Nap: 9:45-10:05 (woke him)
Nap: 12:20-13:35 (is clearly still tired and now getting hyperactive)
I'm going to just go for a 5:45/6pm bed time and hope he catches up a bit overnight somehow!
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Hugs, that EW/NW sounds brutal. Could you try a slightly shorter CN (maybe 10-15mins- up by 10) and a 12.00 nap if he's not getting a long enough sleep after a 20 min CN?
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Thanks!
Sorry for the delay - have been so busy with work on top of trying to sleep...I put him to bed early that night and he did catch up overnight.
I've kept going with the 20 minute catnap then longer sleep. He's caught up now so he's back to his normal amount of day/night sleep. Doing things like this:
WU-5:15
Catnap: 9:45-10:05
Nap: 12:30-14:05
Bed (asleep): 18:30
Then he woke at 5:30 this morning.
We've started to base bedtime on a) the amount of sleep he's had in the day (we can't expect him to do more than 13 hours total) and b) trying to not let his day get much more than 13 hours long. This seems to be working at least reasonably well at the moment - at least he's on some kind of routine again and is happy.
The next step is to move the whole thing so he's back waking at 6am...and then we need to shift him a whole hour when the clocks change at the end of October!!! I'd like to do this sooner rather than later as I suspect he might be hard to shift!
Thanks
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Oh no I forgot about the clock change.. My DD is waking around 5-5.30 too atm..I can't face a 4am wu!
Glad things have settled a bit for you routine wise for now. Let me know how the day shifting goes,I might need to try it myself!
Xx
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I've always found a big jump shift the best way to go - rocky couple of days then everything seems to adjust better than a slow approach x
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Scottishmummy - oh no poor you! Do yo have a catnap as well before the main nap? Well hopefully they will both shift brilliantly! I really don't want 4:00am either.
Jessmum46 - if I did a jump of half an hour (to try and get him to WU at about 6ish) when what do I do - just shift everything out in the day by half an hour? If I put him to bed half an hour later 'cold turkey' I'm pretty sure he'd still wake up at his normal time, or even earlier. I thought about doing 15 minutes every 3-4 days but maybe that's too slow?
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Yes that's what I've done for DST, literally just shifted everything an hour all at once. So catnap an hour later, main nap an hour later, bedtime an hour later plus all meals an hour later as well. Usually we are back on track within 2-3 days, compared to the 1-2 weeks I imagine it would take to shift more gradually. LO will likely wake at usual time first day or so, but they accumulate tiredness quickly and so the 'crash' and shift seems to happen fairly soon. I know a gradual approach can work, just don't have much personal experience with it :). Mine have both done well with the cold turkey approach, as long as you don't expect it to be perfect on day one!
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Something is still not quite right with what I'm doing...he's been OT for the past two days and waking up about 5am. Even with his early bed time it's still not giving him enough sleep. So, what I'm doing is this:
WU-who knows!? 5am/5:30am if we're lucky
Catnap-9:45-10:05
Nap-I put him into his cot at 12:10 but he's taking 20-25 minutes to go down usually. Yesterday he did 12:30-2:00pm but sometimes I only get 1 hour 15 minutes from him.
Bed around 6pm (+ or - 10 mins) and asleep by 6:30 at the latest but usually before.
I'm wondering if he finds the gap between the catnap and the nap a bit of a struggle. Scottishmummy - I know you do a catnap too (and have EWU) - what is your routine please?
At the moment, the aim is to give him enough sleep rather than try and shift the day - I'd like to get him settled a bit before shifting the day but of course there will come a time when I'll have to do it anyway!
Thanks!
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Hi there!
Our routine at the moment is v similar to yours:
Wu: usually around 5-5.45
Nap 1: 9.45/50-10
Nap 2: 1-wake (usually sometime between 2.30-3.30)
BT: 7-7.30 depending on how long she slept for 2nd nap
But our wu is early too, so I don't think my routine is right either.
Looking at yours..the long time to settle and 1hr15 for 2nd nap suggests UT to me. I'd either try the first nap shorter or the 2nd nap later, which would give you a later BT too and maybe a later wake up?? (In theory!)
I'm wondering whether I should push DD to 1 nap tbh, but she is exhausted by 9.30/45, always falls asleep then in the car or buggy (we're often heading out then) & going to 1 nap would mean keeping a grumpy baby going then starting it around 11.30/12ish which is impossible with nursery pick up & with DD's nursery routine on the day she's there :-(
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Thanks! It's so tricky isn't it!
I know people always say push/cap the first nap to get rid of EWUs but it's never worked for us in the past. DS seems to be going through a cycle of a couple of OT days, then he'll catch up at night and wake later, and then the next day will be lovely...but then he'll get OT again and wake earlier. My instinct is to move his catnap earlier - to 9:30am and then his longer sleep to about 12ish, but keep bedtime the same. I'm just not sure though!
Like you, I don't think DS can do 1 nap all the time yet. I guess it's just a juggling act until they can. I hate him being this tired though! Poor you though - I don't even have the complication of nursery pick ups! If you managed to shift your day, would it improve things?
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Yeah, I'd like to try shifting the whole day but DD is exhausted by 9.30/45, so it's tricky.
Are you still trying to get a stable routine then shift the day later? If so & you've tried the CN at 9.45 for a few days now, maybe you could, shift it earlier and see how it goes?
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Yes, I was trying to get a stable routine and then shift the whole day, but DS has just been getting so so tired! I've never seen him this grumpy - he's either crying at anything or so OT that he's hyper.
This morning hit a new low as he woke at 4:05am! A 10 hour night only which is always a disaster night for him. I left him in his cot until 6am and he DID NOT RESETTLE! Can you believe it?! I went in twice as he called mama but otherwise he just chatted or tried to go back to sleep and then failed!
As I have no idea what on earth to do with him, I am trying for a nap now - but have no idea if he'll go down. He's shrieking away still. I may just let him sleep if he goes down - can't face giving him a 20 minute catnap as it's obviously not working.
DH is working in the US at the moment, so it's just me and DS - I'm at a bit of a loss to be honest!! I've been reading some other posts on this board and clearly lots of other people are struggling with the same thing. I hope somebody finds something which works soon!
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Oh no! An EW and on your own too, that's very tough.
How did the rest of the day go & what did the day before the v EW look like?
I really hope you get a better night tonight and catch up sleep for everyone
Xxx
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Hi
Hmm - not great!
Slept from 9:00-10:10 and woke up pretty miserable.
I tried for another nap at 2:00pm and he went down at 2:30pm after a lot of playing around but only did 35 minutes! Assume it was OT.
In his cot for bed at 5:30pm as I honestly had no idea when to put him down - asleep at 6:15pm after talking...talking...talking!
I think it's accumulated OT as yesterday was pretty normal:
WU: 5:15
Catnap: 9:45-10:05
Nap: 12:25-1:50
Then asleep at 6:00/05pm
His nights have been gradually getting worse with this catnap, so I'm assuming that he either doesn't like it or it comes far too late in the day for him. It's so hard, as when he used to get OT (about 2 months ago even), you could give him 2 longer (1 hour plus) naps in a day and an early bed time and he'd catch up. But he just doesn't want to nap late in the afternoons anymore!
Off to bed now as I'm pretty sure it will be 4am again tomorrow! Hope you get a nice late wake up tomorrow :)
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Oh no, I hope you get a good sleep and a better night.....
It sounds like you're really not happy with the catnap. Honestly, if it's not suiting you or him, maybe go back to trying for a long morning nap and seeing if you can get a pm CN - and if you need to try to APOP it if he won't sleep in the cot- maybe in the car or buggy if that would work?
And maybe set a bedtime window...so say, between 6-7pm...6 of you feel he's OT or slept poorly and trying to get closer to 7 in aim for a later wake up on better nap days? That sometimes helps with trying to work out BT on days when it feels like routine has gone out the window.
I hope tomorrow is better for you xxx
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Thanks!
He seemed happier and less tired this morning - woke at 5:15 ish which is still dreadful but over an hour later than the day before!!!
As I was literally at a loss to know what to do, I gave him a 20 minute catnap as usual, but earlier (put him down for 9 and he went down 9:10-9:30). Then tried for main nap at 11:40 (in his cot then) but didn't go down until 12:10 - was quite happy rolling around. But only did 1 hour 10 minutes - woke crying mama!
So up at 1:20pm and in bed at 5:40pm and asleep by 6pm.
I don't think I can push him to more than 5.5 hours in the afternoon, especially on a rubbish 1 hour 10 nap. It's not a lot of sleep in the day is it - 1 hour and 30 minutes? When he was on 2 naps he'd do 2-2.5 hours. Is it usual for them to have less sleep in the day on 1 nap? I was kind of hoping he'd start to nap for 2-2.5 hours in one go! No wonder he's getting tired!
Do you really think a later bedtime will make him wake later? He used to go to bed around 7 and wake about 6 (about 2-3 months ago) but it's just crept earlier and earlier - made worse by him refusing the pm nap quite often and then me putting him down at 5:30pm! I feel I'm putting him down so early but then I look at his WU time and it's nearly a 13 hour day anyway...
Hope we both get to one nap soon! There's so much going on for DS at the moment - he's growing a canine (one more to go after this then he has 16 teeth so maybe we'll get a break!?). Also clearly going through a huge language development thing - spent 10 minutes in his cot last night trying to say 'digger' properly!!! He's just talking, talking talking...
And of course dad being in the US doesn't help as he's clearly missing him a lot :(
Thanks for your help.
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Hmmm, my gut feeling is that an earlier nap might just keep the EW longer..I do think EW, early nap and early bed gets into a cycle of ongoing EW.
It des sound like he's going through a big developmental spurt too which throw sleep off.
Is he about 17 mo now? Have you considered just trying for the 1 nap? Or trying long am/short pm e.g. With EW do you think he could get to 10 and let him sleep as long as he wanted? Then try a late pm CN and then gradually push the first nap later until it's closer to the middle of the day?
DD has done longer nights and woken later (6.30/7ish) the last couple of days but mainly because she isn't sleeping well at childcare now I'm back to work and either refuses am nap or takes short naps ..but she is getting v sad and OT by BT..your LO is a good 6months or so older though and might cope with one nap better.
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Hello! I've just found the 2-1 thread so have been reading that too :)
Well today he refused the 9am catnap - so I put him in the buggy and walked him into town (only about 15 minutes away) - we walked around town for a bit then came back home (no signs of falling asleep in the buggy!). Big snack, and then he was handing me his sleeping bag at 10:30 so I put him in his cot. He was asleep in a couple of minutes!
But still only did 1 hour 20 - that would have been a GREAT nap when we were on 2 naps, but on one nap it's not so good is it?
So his A time was 5.5 hours (but that did include some time in the cot this morning before i got him up).
Didn't try for an afternoon catnap as it would have needed to be at 4:30 or later - making bedtime about 7/7:30pm even if he'd have gone down. He was tired around that time though so may have, but I could have only given him 20 minutes and he would have been miserable until bedtime. It's so hard to know what's best.
I'm not really thinking about it as EWUs - more that I've screwed up his schedule so he's about an hour earlier than I would like. If it had been:
WU - 6:10
Nap - 11:35-1:00
Bedtime - 6:30 and asleep by 6:40pm
then I would be happy enough despite the rubbish amount of day sleep.
I'm so glad your DD is waking later (at least for a while) - but it's not fun having her miserable in the day. Hope she gets used to childcare soon.
DS is 18 months in a few days time! So probably could handle 1 nap days - I suppose they do get tired at first and it might be just a case of pushing through? DH gets back from the US this weekend and is braver than me with DS and his sleep so might well just tell me to go for it! I feel changing everything around is confusing DS at the moment.
We began this whole saga with long AM short PM but what happened is he refused the PM nap and then I put him down early. However, even with 11/11.5 hour nights a 5:30pm bedtime only gets you back to 5am the next day...
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So - tried for another 1 nap day as he did a nice 11.5 hour night and woke at 5:10am...!!! Well, he'd been asleep since 5:40pm.
He was down after 5 minutes and seemed tired but OK. BUT only did 35 minutes and then woke crying. I resettled him and he did another 30 minutes then woke again (crying mama). So I told him it was still sleepy time and he's lying down but I don't reckon he'll go back to sleep. Is this OT do you think?
And how on earth am I going to get him to bedtime (even a 5:30pm bedtime!?). I don't want to really have to try the whole PM catnap fiasco but might have to at this rate. It just doesn't really work - he normally refuses the nap or it makes the day so long that he'd get more sleep by going to bed early.
He's so rubbish at doing long naps that this whole 1 nap thing is really dodgy (was a problem for a long time with 2 naps, I remember!). Should I just keep on trying to resettle him? I think I had to do that when he dropped to 2 naps and I needed to lengthen one of them...
Do they get the hang of it eventually?! I may have to alternate between 1 and 2 nap days I suppose, if he's too tired to manage 2 in a row at the moment.
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Hmmm could be OT..or teething pain? What time did he go for the nap?
If you don't think he will make it to BT, I would try to APOP (car? Buggy?) even just a very, very short (10-15min) CN late afternoon to tide you over to BT. Failing that you just have to push on through with food and distractions to keep him going :-(
Re going to 1 nap, I'd try resettling as long as you can, at least it also gives quiet time. They do get the hang of it eventually but it is an unsettled time. Lots of LOs the same age as yours do well on set naps... What was your naptime the last couple of days and maybe we can think of a set routine to try?
ETA- just seen your post on 2-1 chat thread & also replied there but I think given late transition to 2 naps, we might be pushing to 1 nap too soon & maybe he does need the late pm micro nap that we have talked about before - 4,30 or 4.45 for 15mins could still give you a 7pm BT.
Xxx
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He is teething! Two bottom canines - one is now just poking through and he is starting the other I think. So, yes, could be...it's so hard to tell! I did exactly the same timings are yesterday (we had the same WU time in the morning).
WU: 5:10 ish - but in cot until 6am
In cot for 10:35 and asleep at 10:40.
He never resettled a second time, so I gave up and got him up at 12:15.
The problem with the PM catnap is he won't sleep in the buggy or car. Had him in the buggy around 4pm anyway but no signs at all of going to sleep! So we pushed through to bedtime (at 5:30pm again!). He went down about 5:50pm but I suspect he's a bit OT. He's been fine today though - but his tired signs are quite hard to read and he tends to get hyper rather than dozy!
I'm thinking of 5:30pm as a 'normal' bedtime for a baby who is awake at 5am - at least he has a chance to get a long night. I know we've got to shift him though!!!!
I don't exactly think he's HSN - he's just always had a problem with napping for a long period of time! Before we did the 3-2 he was pretty much on 40 - 1h10/1h20ish - 40 and it was only when we got really settled on 2 naps that he lengthened out a bit. I'm sure he'd be absolutely fine on 1 nap if he did 1.5 hours or more, but I suspect this won't happen very often. It may be just a case of going for it and resettling him a lot as he settled down - I remember doing this when we first went to 2 naps - we ended up with a lot of NWs around that time, but then he settled down.
I think I'm going to have to alternate between trying an AM catnap some days and trying 1 nap on others depending on how tired he seems in the morning!
Hope you are still getting lovely 6/7am wake ups?