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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: Clairehv on August 16, 2016, 08:04:54 am
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Hi
DD2 is 13 weeks old and I am struggling to get her over the 20_40 minute sleep cycle wake up.
We have made some progress. For the first 8 weeks of her life she only slept in the sling or upright on me. We do now have her reflux managed on ranitidine and at 8 weeks we started her sleeping her on her tummy. We thought we had made a breakthrough with some good naps but the only way she will sleep longer than 20 mins in the day now is in the pram and it has to be kept moving or in the sling.
In both of those she wakes but the movement causes her to go back to sleep.
With DD1 around it is just not practical for me to walk for 2 hours in between each feed.
The other thing I am querying is her A time. She only seems to be able to manage an hour before yawning. If I lie her down at first yawn, she will go to sleep with her dummy with minimal fuss.
I have been trying to extend to 1 hour 15 but like now she has taken over 25 mins to settle and still isn't asleep.
The short naps are leading to huge over tiredness and a meltdown after bath. Often she screams for 40 mins and completely refuses bottle.
I don't know if the dummy is a blessing or a curse either for resetting.
Yesterday looked a bit like this
WU 7am
E 7.15
S : yawn at 8am, tried to push on, into cot 8.15
S 8.20-8.40 (resettled) 9.10 (resettled) 9.30 crying, had dd1 so couldn't spend time resetting.
E: 10.10am
S 11-11.40 in pram, woke up as pram stationary. Tried resettling, closed eyes but kept waking.
E 12.45 180ml
S 1.15-2.15 I. Pram, woke when stopped
Tried with pram to get back to sleep
E 3.45 130ml
S in car to force a nap but only 20 mins 4.50-5.15pm
Bath 5.45
Crying refused bottle
6.30 180ml
Sleep
1.45am 180ml
WU 7.10am
So our nights are ok at the moment but how do I get over the short naps especially in the cot?
Thanks for the help in advance, I don't know how we will move to a 4 hour EASY on such awful day sleep
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Hi hun, just wanted to write quickly that I've seen this. Have a few appointments this afternoon and will respond properly later :)
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Thank you.
I really tried to stay on track today but she was inconsolable at bedtime tonight.
WU 7.00am
E 7.20 120ml
S started to settle at 8.20 (ignore yawn at 8am), didn't fall asleep until 8.55 but did settle herself on tummy with dummy in. Woke up 9.25am
E : 10am 150ml
S : in pram 11.15- woke 11.55- back asleep 12.10-12.25 as kept walking.
E: 1pm 120ml
S : really crying from 1.40pm. S in sling 2pm-3.20pm
E 3.50pm 60ml then fussy crying from 4.15- tired
S in pram 4.35-5.15
Did bath early, out of bath at 5.50. Is happy in bath and getting changed then tried to give bottle, meltdown! Took 30 mins to calm and to take bottle. She clearly just wants to be asleep.
Just feel the short naps make the day shorter and shorter and I don't know how to avoid the OT. Ideally her last nap would be between 5-6pm I think
X
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Okay so the first thought that comes to mind is the A times, so today I think you were right to ignore the yawn at 8am as I do think she'll be able to handle a longer A, but it might take some figuring out. I usually allow for 10mins of 'settling time' so if you want to shoot for a 1.5hr A time I'd start your wind down routine at around 1.20...it may take a bit of playing around to figure out the A time, but given she did eventually settle for her first nap I'd try to maybe go right for 1.5hrs. Given she's been settling up until now with movement, she might just need a little help to go off...have you done any shh/pat at all? Around this age my DD was doing the wakings as 20 and 40mins too so I would just try to dedicate 1 nap (usually the first one) to resettling with shh/pat (I get how this isn't always possible with another LO in tow). In my personal experience though I do find a lot of getting past these wakings and resettlings is age related and the do eventually learn to do it on their own and connect the cycles.
I think the rest of the day was OT like you said, her second A was probably a little long given the first nap wasn't long. If you don't get a good first nap I would reduce the next A a bit (maybe 15mins) to try to avoid OT. Beyond that, I think the sling nap was a good call, she seemed to get a decent sleep in there.
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Hi
ok thank you. It's funny what you forget isn't it.I remember creeping into DD1 room to turn the white noise back on at 35 mins to get her over the 40 min wake up but no idea how old she was!!!!
So with DD2 should the wind down be getting her into her keeping bag and drawing the curtains etc at 1he 20 and putting in cot before the 1 hrs 30 mins.
Will give it a go today.
X
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Let me know how it goes!
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Awful day!!
WU 7.05
E : not that interested 60 ml
S, yawning and then whinge 8.15, stretched to 8.25. Some crying but asleep 8.30-9.10 tried to resettle with dummy and shhh pat. Gave up at 9.30
E 10 am
S so had to visit a friend but had planned drive around nap times : fail
screamed from 10.35am to 11. Fell asleep 11-11.20. Into sling on arrival at 11.35 quiet but didn't sleep
E 1pm 80 ml then crying
s fell asleep in arm 1.20, into car seat hoping would sleep on drive. Woke up and hysterical from 2.05-2.55
Home : into pram on tummy with dummy. S 3-3.40pm in pram walking. Wanted to get to 4pm ideally but didnt go off
E 4pm 130ml
S 5.15-6pm in pram
Into bath.
6.25 crying refused bottle until 7pm having to hold and use dummy.
Took until 7.50pm to finally settle after full bottle taken taken.
Tomorrow is a new day!
Huge meltdown from dd1 at bedtime just to add to the fun. X
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Hi
so I enforced naps today by walking with the pram but it is not practical to do this every day however it made a difference at bath/bedtime
WU : 7am
E : 7.30am 60 ml (put off by 4 am bottle maybe)
S: whinging at 8.15, stretched to 8.25. S in pram at 8.30- woke 9.10, S 9.15 due to pushing pram. Woke 10.20am
E : 10.40am 120ml
S: 11.30- 12.40 stopped pram.
E 1.15 180 ml (crying from 1pm)
S 1.50pm-3.30pm in pram -walking
E 4pm 60 ml
s 5pm-5.40 in sling
Bath at 6pm
6.25 180ml no screaming or crying first.
S 7pm-
So this was a much better late afternoon evening but I am not sure how to get there with her in the cot
x
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Yes, absolutely looks like a better day overall. When she's in the cot does she go down okay initially without the movement, then wake at the 20/30/40 min mark? Trying to determine if she always wants the movement or just needs it to get through those transitions, if that makes sense.
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Hi
She goes down initially fine and will self settle to sleep initially in the cot. The only time we have problems initially is if she is very OT.
She is now reliant on the dummy though, but as long as she keeps that in I can put her in sleeping bag , lie her on tummy and walk out
Then like clockwork she will wake, if not at 20 min, then always at 40 mins
X
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Okay, that is good though! Honestly for us the 20/40 minute wakings were largely developmental (as long as I knew I had her A time right). At about 4/4.5 months once we were on a 4hr EASY she eventually learned to get through those cycles on her own. I found the same with DS (though he was a bit older). I realize you have another LO and can't spend your entire day shh/patting, so maybe just focus on 1 nap in the crib right now, whichever one is easiest for you to commit to doing shh/pat when she's transitioning. My DS went to preschool 3 x per week so I'd try to focus on doing shh/pat on those days, and even at that rate it only took about 2 weeks before she started learning to get past 20/40 mins. I know that seems like a long time at the time.
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Hi
I know at the moment it feels like she will never get it
Although obviously at night we are getting those really good longer stretches.
I do stress a little that the tummy sleeping is going to negatively impact car seat and pushchair use.
So last night she slept through! Although did have 12 week jabs yesterday.
She woke around 7am. Still wasn't bothered for milk straight away.
Our day was like this
WU 7am
E 7.20 90ml
S: started to settle 8.25, took until 8.50am. Woke 9.10 tried dummy and Shah pat until 9.30. Had to give up due to DD1 'helping'
E 10.30 180 ml
S 11.20 in cot. Woke 12ish. Tried to settle. 12.40 into sling. Sleep 12.50-1.25
E 1.30pm 150ml
S 3pm in pram in house. S 3pm-3.35. Wouldn't settle with rocking
E 4.15pm 70ml
S in sling 5-5.50pm
Bath
S 7pm-
Really noticeable 40 min wakes. I will keep persevering x
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How have the last few days been hun? How do you think the 1.5hr A time is going/how is her mood? I'm wondering if your first nap is either UT/OT (UT so she takes a long time to settle so then OT nap because the A ends up being too long), or just plain OT so she's fighting it? What's your feeling?
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Hi
we are really battling.
I have stretched her to 1.5 hours but just cannot crack this 40 min wake up
I even got out DD1 sleep logs to check I wasn't imagining things but at 3 months with her I was definitely getting 1.5-2 hour naps.
We are easily on a 3 hour bottle routine and sometimes could stretch to 3.5 hrs between feeds but cannot crack this over tiredness.
Today :- (both children at home :( )
WU 6.50am
E 7.15am 180ml
S : was fussy and thingy at 8am. Lay down in cot at 8.10, asleep no fuss. WU 9.30
E 10.10am 150ml
S really whinging 11am.
In carry cot S 11.05-11.45, tried to resettle with dummy and rocking on off until 12.20 (had to get dd1 home)
E 1pm 150ml
S instant in sling 1.35-3.10pm (quiet but awake in sling until 3.50
E 4pm 160ml
S 4.45-5.30pm woke crying
Bath 5.45
Crying and refusing bottle after bath until 6.30 then bottle and asleep at 7pm
The short naps just mAke the day shorter and bring bath earlier. I fear this is going to impact our nights.
It is so marked her 40 min cycle. You can set a clock by her.
Any suggestions? I am starting to get a bit down about having to constantly walk her x x
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Not to worry hun, neither of my LOs were getting past the 40min mark at 3 months! For DD it happened around 4/4.5 months and DS...gosh, more like 6 or 7 months! ::) Don't remind me lol
WU 6.50am
E 7.15am 180ml
S : was fussy and thingy at 8am. Lay down in cot at 8.10, asleep no fuss. WU 9.30
So this looks like a decent nap, 8:10-9:30, a 1.20hr nap after a 1.20hr A time. I wonder if you try to stick with this A time for a few days and see what happens?
I think you really did quite well considering, her 2nd nap was short so you reduced the next A time and she did ok in the sling. I used to only spend about 15mins trying to resettle, and if it didn't happen by that point then I just got on with the day. I know how hard it is, you are doing fabulous and it will come together eventually. I think the first nap today was great, and maybe stick with that A time, or even 1.25hr for a few days and that nap might settle in, and once the first one is set the rest tend to follow.
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Hello! Thought I'd jump on here and add some extra help and support! :)
For starters I think your doing a pretty good job. Sounds like your quote knowledgable of your LOs needs and are trying your best to get her well rested and happy.
I just recently went through those first few months and quite honestly, no two days were the same. I started to accept short naps as part of it. It really can just be developmental. As A time increases, she will tire more and along come the long naps. I accepted that longer naps come closer and more consistently around the start of 5 months and as early as the end of the 4mths. Plus, come her 4mth regression and all this will be out the window again once she starts napping long, kwim? ;)
I have to agree with Lindsay on the A times... But sometimes they are so hard to crack ::) ....!! I know your first was possibly doing longer naps but remember, no two babies are the same ;) ...DS1 didn't take long naps until 6 mths and sleep all night until 8-9 mths! ...DS2 sleeps long naps since the 4mth mark (once the regression subsided...but it was quite a bit of stress HAHA!) and all night since maybe 5 months... And even then he still wakes sometimes... And once in awhile hits me with he short naps.
As Lindsey said above, if you got a long nap off of 1.20 A time, I would certainly consider sticking with that for now. Your on top of it though really! i hope your able to get some good naps soon! Looks like your getting there little by little! I know how rough those first few weeks can be ESPECIALLY with another toddler around. I was there just a few weeks ago and now, I can't remember them anymore! Time flies!
Many hugs and I would continue tweaking those A times until you nail it... Before it changed again ;)
Xo!!!
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Thanks both, yes I certainly remember the pain of establishing the naps with DD1.
I am grateful that DD2 is so settled at night as we have total regression with dd1 but that is another post!
Am going to stick with the 1.20-1.30 A time and first nap of day in the cot for the next two days when I only have her at home and see how it goes
Oh I must have blanked the 4 month regression out of my mind. What tends to happen?
X
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Sounds great! I agree try to stick with 1.20-1.5hr as it seems to be getting the best results.
4 month regression mainly affected our nights, naps were either the same or improved. It's basically just a huge developmental leap and their sleep goes wonky. I think it maybe lasted around 2 weeks for us. It is also about the time when you are moving to 4hr EASY so things just tend to be a mess all around. We'll save that for another day though! One thing at a time lol :).
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Hehe it's a ways away but as Libdsay said, one thing at a time ;)
With us, it was probably the same thing as Lindsay said. Our naps got a bit weird ONLY because he was ready to be unswaddled and that was a challenge for us haha! But it lasted a good two weeks as well-- more or less. Naps improved at 4mths for us too twds the end. His night sleep changed as he began to wake again around midnight/1am and 4/5am. Before he had only been waking one time around 3/4am... But I treated it as a NF since there's a growth spurt anyway around that time... And it went away on its own with no help on my end. My biggest issue was the swaddle haha! And paci back then too! Lol ;)
What happens is their sleep changes. It's developmental. They also begin the rolling phase which can disturb sleep as well. It goes by so quickly and for many moms, it's not bad at all.
Sounds like a good plan with those A times. You know, I always tried my best to get the morning nap in his crib. For suuuure. The first nap is restorative and I felt it set the stage for the naps to follow. Def try that and be consistent! Let us know how it goes!
Hang in there mama your doing great :) naps are always a pain! I never thought of say this but, I can't wait till my LO is at one nap! Haha ;)
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Hi
So A will be 15 weeks on Monday, we are seeing no improvement in the naps, just cannot get her over the 40 min cycle and the OT now seems to be impacting her but am just trying to enforce longer naps when I can get out with pram,
In the pram she will wake after 40 mins then be awake for 20-30mins before going back to sleep for a while. Wakes up even if prAm moving and always within minutes if prAm stopped
In cot, wakes up after 40 mins or eArlier, can take up to 30 mins to resettle if I have the time to do that (i.e. no dd1) but then may only do another 10-20 mins.
Not sure how I will stretch the a time and E time to 4 hours.
X
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Oh I must have blanked the 4 month regression out of my mind. What tends to happen?
Often during the 4 month regression people see short naps even when LO has previously taken good long naps. Mine was an independent sleeper with long naps but at 3.5 months the regression hit, I knew nothing about it back then of course so the whole thing was a crazy exhausting time with 4 or 5 naps per day of 40 min length. The regression is often around 2 months with naps improving at 6 months old. For us it was 5.5 months when the nap improved again.
One thing I felt towards the end of our regression and have since felt whilst supporting on the boards is that if the A time is too short there is not much chance of getting the longer nap. If I had my time again I'd increase the A earlier, LO appears tired but with short A times and short naps they continue to be tired, with a longer A there is more chance of a better nap (easier to resettle if you do still need to) and the longer nap helps overall - meaning they actually get better sleep due to longer A time. Many of us (me included) delay on increasing the A time for fear of OT but the result is UT naps and LO still gets OT across the day anyway.
I haven't read through your whole thread, but this might be something you want to think about. Increasing the A.
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Hi
We are regularly on a 1.5 hr A time and maybe up to 1.45hr if she is then taking a while to settle.
So today (Saturday)
WU 7am
E 7.30
S into cot at 8.30am self settled literally within a minute , woke 9.25 crying unhappy. Tried shhh pat in cot then actually am doing shhh pat in arms so she is asleep 9.45-
Just wanted to try and get a bit more sleep to push her next nap start time to around 11.30am or our day just gets shorter and shorter
And she is my last baby so just enjoying my baby cuddle time (reframe reframe ) dd1 gone swimming with daddy.
So we have never had good naps so am dreading them being even worse through the regression.
Do you think I should push the A time to 1hr 40 mins regularly ? X
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You could certainly try it, looks like that so was about 55mins, which honestly is a bit odd...I'm not quite sure what that means. She woke crying/unhappy so I'm wondering if it is OT? How are her nights? If she is self settling quickly and easily then I don't necessarily think the A time is wrong it may just take some time for her to sleep full 2 complete cycles. It does sound like lots of improvements though even though the day is kind of pear shaped.
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Hi
I am still concerned how to get over this 40 min nap cycle.
Dd2 is 15 weeks now and as we approach 4 months I know we look to move to 4 hourly feeds. In honesty she may be ready for 3.5 hrs as some feeds she only does 2oz.
Some of signs to increase the E time are short naps however I haven't yet managed to establish the 1.5-2hrs naps the book details.
The last few days as it has been the bank holiday weekend we have been out and about but I have tried to keep to her routine and encourage longer naps
O k have to break off as she has woken again x
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Do you think you may need a wee A push? This stage was sooo awkward for us, even 5mins made a difference, I really had to watch the clock. You are probably right in that you are approaching at least a 3.5hr EASY, why don't you try a 1.40hr A time and see what happens? We didn't start getting past the 40min naps until we were consistently at a 2hr A time.
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Hi, ;)
Thanks Lindsay, I will push her first A time to 1hrs 40 and see how that goes.
We had our best nap in the cot ever this morning. A time was 1hr 35, settled quickly, on her back! No less. And we got a 1 hour 20 min nap, the rest of the day wasn't great however but I will take any small wins
Will see how the next couple of days go if I up the A time. X x
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Ohhh fantastic! Ya know, a 1.20hr nap is usually UT so I bet if you push to 1.40hr A time you may get a solid 1.5hr nap. Once that first one is good and consistent the rest tend to follow...eventually!
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Urgh! Crap nap day today.
Not sure why
WU 6.50am
E : 60ml ...... (think night bottle is affecting day milk now) (had 180ml at 3am)
S: 8.30am, resettle at 8.50am, s - 8.55-9.45am
E 10 am 120ml
S: 11.30am-12.10pm in pram. Kept walking until 12.50, did not drop off
E 1pm, 120ml
S: OT whinging at 1.40 s 2pm-2.30 in pram, kept walking fell back asleep 3.20-4pm
E 4.10 90ml
Did not have a catnap despite walking.
Bath 5.50pm
6.15 only 100ml asleep 6.30pm
Woke 10pm (has never woken at this time since wk2 150ml
Woke 3am tried to resettle with dummy for 10 mins then gave bottle. 140ml
(Has not had two night bottles since week 6/7)
Maybe a new post about nights as I am not sure if day naps are affecting the night's. Or if the night feed is now affecting the day milk
I am at loss on the naps really. If she won't sleep when I can get out with the pram then feel a bit hopeless about succeeding with her in the cot
She will be 16 weeks on Monday and I had thought I would/ be getting a longer nap to start to move to 3.5 hrs EASY
X
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Hi Claire, wanted to post a reply earlier but life has been so hard. MY DD has had so many NW and I feel so exhausted. But we are doing better on naps. Why can't I have both??
What we do to get a long nap is to sleep nearby and pat immediately to prevent completely waking up. Her crib is next to my bed. I pat and shh her to sleep, with her side lying (I put my nursing pillow behind her back, when she is asleep, I take it away, and she will lie on her back then), and I also lie down with arms around her, and my leg gives some gentle pressure on her legs (so awkward to find a comfortable pose at the beginning). When she is asleep, I take my leg and arms back, and I just took a nap as well, as I am so sleep deprived at night. Then around 45min, at her first stir, I just go back immediately and pat+shh her. sometimes it was very smooth, but more often she would wake a few times before she is completely asleep again. From my observation, if she is asleep after the first 45min, she usually sleep longer than 45min.
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Hi
Yes it is definitely about getting over the 40mins, am sure it is developmental and will happen in time.
I will persevere x
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Hugs!!! I am feeling your pain, I can't get my DD to nap longer than 30mins these days, we've had 1 nap days of only 30mins! ::) Save me. Lol
It really is developmental, which is hard because there is nothing you can 'do' about it yk? I think your A times are fine, the first nap looks like she woke at 20mins which I believe is often OS or OT, but honestly you could analyze to death. I'd try a 1.40hr A time for a few days, she may just need to adjust a bit.
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Oh its hard.
Been away for the weekend so naps haven't been great but bless her dd2 does seem more laid back than dd1 ever was or still is!
I will monitor over the next few days x
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If you would like to offer support to Claire please continue here:
16 week old still short naps: how to move to 4 hr easy