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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Tabathagucci on January 04, 2017, 22:59:57 pm
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Help! Naps have fallen apart and can't tell if she's overtired or undertired. LO is 11 months next week and we used to have an A time of about 3h40m with a 90 min am nap and a short pm nap anywhere from 25-50 mins. The naps were getting short so I was starting to increase A times gradually. Then she started a developmental leap and her sleep went to pot and we had a long early morning waking (around 4 or 5 am) and back to sleep. During this time the morning A time was a lot shorter because of the craziness. Now that we're out of the leap I have no idea where I'm at.
I've been trying a morning A time of around 3h55m to 4 hours. Some days this gets me a 90 min nap, sometimes a 32 min nap. Her second A time seems to need to be 3h40m now, which gets me anywhere from 25-60 mins. If I push her longer she rolls around forever and sometimes ends up hysterical so have to nurse her to sleep. Her last A time is about 3 hours, sometimes a little more or less depending on how long her last nap was.
Anyway, would appreciate suggestions! Thanks in advance!
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Going to post some links to read through when you have a chance that might be helpful, but in the meantime, have you considered doing a short AM/long PM routine? Does she need a really good first A time to fall asleep? At a certain point most end up switching to this as many LOs refuse the afternoon nap if they've had a good morning nap.
So a rough example would be something like:
WU 6:30
Nap 10-10:45 (capped)
Nap 1:45-3:15/3:30
BT 7
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
I would maybe give it a try and see what happens, if you get a better day/better naps.
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Thanks for replying! She has always needed a long am A time and short Pm A time. If she has a short am A time I get early wakings. I've tried stretching the pm A time and I get early wakings also. I read the 2-1 transition post in the FAQ and it seems like she would be better suited pushing the am nap. Her morning nap has always been the good one whereas the pm nap has always been hit and miss.
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That said, I could certainly try it! Guess I'm just afraid that I'll get a short on baonand hen bebstuck trying to fit in a 3rd nap, which is basically hell for us!
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Yes my DD has always preferred the morning nap as well, and we are well into the 2-1 and I did eventually habe to do the short AM, otherwise she would happily nap 2hrs in the morning, but then that would be it and she'd be awake from 11:30am until BT 😳, she would refuse all PM naps no matter what. She is 13 months though, and we just moved to that recently.
It might be worth trying just to see, often the PM nap is hit or miss because the morning nap has been so good, so if you eliminate/shorten the good morning nap the PM nap improves. Either way I think your options are to keep pushing the good morning nap later and adding an afternoon CN, or try for the shorter morning nap.
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Ok, thank you! The pm nap has been 50 minutes max even with a short am nap. I got stuck with two 32 min naps yesterday and she refused a 3rd nap after two attempts and had EBT. Good news is after a 3.5 hour A time before bed (which was too long before) she's now been sleeping over 11.5 hours. So it's good to know she can handle that now! I have a 5 yo in school so think I'll stick with long am nap and cap it if she starts refusing the pm nap so we can have more few time when ODS is out of school. We're definitely not there yet as she goes down easily for her pm nap.
I guess I just need help figuring out the morning A time. I'm not sure if she's OT or UT when I get a short nap.
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I pushed A time to 4h10m and she went down super easy and slept an hour and 25 mins. So I guess I have my answer! Will post if things get wonky again!
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Sounds great!
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Ok now I'm getting night wakings! We had pretty much perfect days with the new A time last Thursday and Friday. She slept really late Friday morning so assumed she was just catching up so we had a shorter morning A time but she still went down later than the usual time she normally goes down by. She took a great first nap, had a great rest of the day and then woke at 4. I let her be and she rolled around for a long while but started fussing around 45 mins later so I nursed her. She will usually fall back to sleep while nursing but she didn't and seemed restless. She finally fell back to sleep in my arms and I transferred her back to the crib. Next night same thing happened but this time she did fall asleep and after transferring her she woke and only slept off and on, waking every 5-20 mins and falling back to sleep after a few mins. Last night she woke at 1:30 and 2:30 but put herself back to sleep, then woke again at 3:30 and stayed awake. I nursed her at 4:10 and she fell right back to sleep. Transferred her back to crib and she slept till 6:40 with a brief waking at 5.
She was sleeping through the night for a couple weeks and if she woke, she would put herself back to sleep, even if it took a while. Now I'm getting these crazy wakings. Any thoughts on what it could be?
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How much day sleep is she getting hun?
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Usually 1.5 for first nap and 30-40 for second nap.
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I think I've figured it out. If she's getting 2 hours of sleep a day, and needs roughly 11 at night and she likes a fairly short second A time and an even shorter third A time, I need to push her am nap even later. I did this yesterday and she's still sleeping. Unfortunately I'm not, but she is! LOL Will see how it goes over the next couple days. Thank you for your support so far!
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Sounds great, happy you were able to work it out!
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Ok so it appears that baby girl has been waking around 4-ish (am) and laying awake on and off till 5-ish but just laying quietly and then drifting back to sleep eventually. I've woken up a couple times and seen her and the other days I just suspected because she seemed to need to go to sleep earlier than usual for am nap and once I kept her up till her normal time and got an OT nap.
Soooo...wondering if this is developmental or because we need a tweak in our routine? She is 11 mos now and we're in physical therapy because she's not mobile (crawling, getting herself to sitting, etc.) She is doing great and progressing towards crawling.
Here is our routine but it varies quite a bit based on when she wakes.
Wake 6 am
Eat (nurse) 6:30
Eat (breakfast) 8
Sleep ~10-11:30
Eat (nurse) 11:45
Eat lunch 1-2
Sleep ~3:10-3:45 or 3:55
Eat (nurse) 4
Eat (nurse) 6:15
Sleep bedtime 6:30/6:45 asleep by 7 usually
Thank you!
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Ps she also has reflux and allergies but I keep my diet really clean most of the time which helps reflux tremendously. I do fudge from time to time so this may be reflux waking her too? Or teeth! She's been taking mostly good naps but waking early here and there, but she sleeps fine all night until that 4-ish time frame.
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Now naps are a mess again and I can't tell if she's overtired or undertired. Sigh... not sure how to get back on track!
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Hi there - I expect Lindsay will be back when she can - meanwhile I thought I'd drop by.
she likes a fairly short second A time and an even shorter third A time, I need to push her am nap even later.
This is just how my DS was. Ultra long first A time (when we went off track pretty much everyone would say OT as his A was so long, it was a lone-voice would suggest UT and was right), shorter second A and an even short last A time to BT.
If naps have gone off track again I would consider moving that first nap a bit later again. Based on what you've said so far about nap length, A times etc.
She could be close to dropping the second nap. Mine dropped his between11-12 months. it was pretty messy over that transition period tbh but we got there.
Those NWs where she lays awake but quietly - leave her, it's fine. Tracy mentions these in the BW books and says it is common for LOs to spend a considerable amount of time awake in the night and eventually fall back to sleep. When these happen we do look at routine just to check that nothing obvious needs changing but if routine is basically okay then just put it down to developmental. Keep naps at the same time rather than bringing the morning nap earlier to compensate for the shorter night. Chances are LO does not need an earlier nap but we can be tempted and then get in a pickle with nap length and times. If you are viewing her on a monitor and see her awake just pretend you have no video monitor - LOs shout and cry when they need you, if she is in need she will let you know.
WRT getting back on track I'd go immediately back to the time you were doing morning nap and then next day move it 10 mins later.
hope this helps
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thank you! Yes most people suggest OT and it has been the lone voices on here suggesting UT that have helped me so much over the last few months! 😊 I had just pushed her A time from 3h40m to 4h10m, which was working briefly. I have tried keeping it at that even when she has her night wakings and I get awful OT naps and even have to nurse her to sleep sometimes. So I'm wondering, maybe she needs more total A time during the day??? I've been thinking about it over the past few days a lot. I was chalking it up to developmental but we just finished a developmental leap with these night wakings (in the very early am) and she had gone back to normal for a few days, then short naps, so I pushed A time, which got me longer naps, then the wakings happened again. Anyway just a thought! There have been a couple times here and there where her last A time was longer because of short naps and refusing to take a third and she did ok.
Thanks so much again for your response!!!
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Ah I see what you're saying - the longer nap ends up in NWs, hmm so if tried enough for a good nap the result looks like UT for night sleep. Are the NWs chatty though? I can remember cot-parties in the middle of the night but I can also remember another time of him just being awake. I guessed the cot parties were UT NWs but the just being awake NWs were developmental and he got over it.
Have you tried capping the second nap shorter after a good first nap to keep the overall day sleep to a relatively consistent amount?
We didn't really get a proper routine back until the second nap was gone and my DS took a while to work through the OT caused by having only one nap - eek it was a messy time. It could also be that BT needs to go a bit later until that second nap is dropped. If I remember correctly my DS's moved to 7.30 then 8pm with the second nap in, until he had 1 nap with EBT.
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I was actually thinking I need to stretch the A time before bed. Her second nap is already short and many days we have trouble making it to a reasonable bed time (6:30). We accidentally had 3h45m before bed last night, she fell asleep at 7:30. She woke up crying a couple times early in the night but went back to sleep so imagine she was OT and I'll get an early wake up (it's almost 5:30 am here and she's starting to fidget) but as far as I can tell she didn't wake before.
Her wakings have been typically quiet or fussy, not chatty. Anyway, I will just have to expect messiness for at least a couple more months (something I don't do well with!) or more. She can't seem to handle much more than 4 hours A time so don't think she's ready for 1 nap yet!
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If you feel the overall day needs to be longer and she likes a longer first A time then perhaps just increase that one and leave the other two shorter? I was always amazed when I saw other LOs routines with equal A times through the day a mine couldn't do that at all.
What time did she get up in teh end? Just wondering how her night turned out and if you got an OT EW or if she managed to get through to a reasonable time?
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I've been waking up every 15-30 mins looking at the monitor to see if she's waking up (not on purpose, my mind can't help it!). So this morning it seemed like she slept through. However, she was asleep at 5:15, but I fell back to sleep until 5:55, at which point I woke up and she was already awake and laying there quietly. So now I have no idea when she woke up and have to guess what time to put her down for nap 1 because she hasn't been giving me many clues! At any rate, this means she slept at least 10.5 hours, possibly 11 (she fell asleep at 6:45 pm), so I suppose that's progress. She only napped a total of 1h10m yesterday so was hoping for more like 11.5. I thought things would be great once she slept through the night but these early mornings are tough!
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So sorry just saw your response! She ended up waking up at 5:30/5:40 yesterday, it was hard to tell because she's been rolling around with her eyes closed for 10 mins or more lately, then her eyes open. So I got about 10 hours, which seems like OT EW. I had to APOP and nurse her back to sleep because we had music class and she never would have made it through and it's too expensive to miss!!! 😊
Anyway, last night I put her down at 3 hours and 10 mins for the last A time and she fell asleep at 3.5 hours (15 mins shorter than previous night) and I got 10.5-11 hours night sleep, still on the short side after a short nap day. Wondering if I should try putting her down at 3 hours for the last A time tonight and see if she sleeps through now??? Of course I won't have any idea how long her first A time is so it makes it a little harder to see how long her total day is. But tomorrow is another day!
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Yes I would try reducing the A before BT again, 3hr as you said. As you are getting the early morning WU anyway I doubt it can be so much worse so it is worth a try.
For the nap time I think you can move towards something near a "set" time now rather than worrying too much exactly when she woke up in the morning. Once on 1 nap a set time for nap and BT works better for most LOs. At this point you could aim for a "set" and be flexible if needed. I would just get to close to whatever time she's been going down recently - not too short an A time so as to discourage the NW and make sure the first nap is a decent one.
...and stop waking up to watch her! You need to get some sleep for yourself too :)
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Soooo, i tried the 3 hours last night. Even put her down at 2h55m. She fell asleep at 3h10m, 6:55 pm. She only slept 10h40m overnight, waking at 5:35 am. I used the be able to put her down early and she'd sleep 11-12 hours.
I was using a mix of A time and a set time for naps, using 10-10:15 for the latest time I would put her down because she seemed to sleep short naps if put down any later. If she woke early, I'd use A time. She can't seem to handle much more than 4 hours A time so if I don't know when she wakes, and she's waking early, I can't even make it to 10. And I feel like I have to wake up otherwise I have no idea if she's awake over 4 hours or not. Honestly, I'm afraid to use a set time! I just wish there was something I could tweak to get those longer nights back or at least get her to sleep till 6 am! Trying to quietly entertain a baby while the rest of the house sleeps for 2 more hours is exhausting!
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I guess I feel like I need to know when she wakes until we get back on track. Maybe now she's EW because her morning A time is too short. At least I'm not getting the weird middle of the early am wakings for now sonmaybe I can work on her morning A time again and see if I can stretch it?
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So you did get a slightly longer night with the shorter A time before BT - that's a good hunch you followed there! :)
Yeah, I understand you don't want the rest of the house woken etc so you want to be aware of her sleep times, I am worried you are keeping yourself up too much in the night though, YOU need sleep too honey!
We usually advise set naps around the time they are 12 months and on one nap - really your LO is not far from this so it would be totally reasonable to set her nap at say 10.30am (4.5hr from a 6am WU) and just keep it there. it would likely help to discourage the too early WU.
I used the be able to put her down early and she'd sleep 11-12 hours.
The chances are this is going to happen again when things settle down.
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Ok I'm willing to try it! It would certainly simplify matters... so can you possibly tell me how I get there? Just keep her up till 10:30 every morning no matter what and she gets used to it? This morning's A time was 4 hours and I got a 1h20m nap.
Thank you again, it helps so much to have support through this!!!
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So the last 2 morning she woke at around 4, I ends up having to nurse her but she went back to sleep until later 7 am. A 10:30 nap time was no problem. I got a 55 min nap the first day and 30 mins the next. Today I woke at 5:55 and she was already awake. It seemed like she was just waking up but I have no way of knowing. So obviously 10:30 is more than 4.5 hours and too long so when do I put her down?
Thank you!
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The longest A time I've even done with her in the am was 4h10m and that was at least 2 weeks ago.
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Hi there - sorry it looks like I abandoned you but I've just been a bit snowed under.
I would still keep the nap at 10.30am - perhaps with a flexibility of 15 mins either way if you feel more comfortable with that?
The days she woke later, 7am, and had a nap at 10.30 (but too short, maybe UT) could be indicating to her to wake up earlier which in effect means she increases her own A time to account for the 10.30 nap. Really if she is laying awake in her cot not calling for you and you were still sleeping then you wouldn't know how long her A time was because you wouldn't know she woke at 6am rather than 7am. In some ways it is helpful to know when she wakes but in other ways it is not so helpful, it can make parents worry about A times and OT etc.
If she needs a longer first A time then this is either going to come from her waking earlier or you moving the nap later - it isn't going to come from giving her an earlier nap.
Times, A times, nap times are not set in stone and although we often use them here to try to judge the best routine for LO it is important not to get too wrapped up in them. This for instance:
This morning's A time was 4 hours and I got a 1h20m nap.
Seems like a pretty good nap after 4hrs A time. I would have thought with say 4hrs 15 or 4hrs 30 she could well get a more restorative sleep of 1.5hr+ maybe a full 2hr nap. I would take from this that a slightly longer A time is not a huge worry.
Of course it was only one day though so we shouldn't put too much focus on one A time and one nap.
So the last 2 morning she woke at around 4, I ends up having to nurse her but she went back to sleep until later 7 am.
I probably would have used this later WU as an opportunity to move the nap later, but easy to say in hindsight and you might prefer her to be up at 6am rather than 7am? I don't know. 7am sounds better to me, but it could result in a later BT down the line.
Just as a rough guide, with a longer first A time, shorter second A time and shorter still last A time the result is later BT which also then allows for an 11hr night, it could look something like this:
WU 7
A approx 4hr 15 - 4hr 30
S 11.15/11.30 - 1.00 (or even 1.15 or 1.30 if a 2hr nap)
A 3hr 30
S 4.30 - 5
A 3hr
BT 8
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Hi and thank you! I read this after I nursed her back to sleep yesterday when she woke at 5:05 after a 10 hour night... oh well! I left her till she fussed, nursed her and she went back to sleep from 6:05 to 6:45. Nap at 10:30 and I had to wake her at 12 to go pick up my son from school. We were out the rest of the day and I mistimed her attempted pm nap (was too late) so she refused a second nap all together and was up from 12-6:30! Went to bed easy and slept from 6:30 pm to 5:30 am! 11 hours after a suuuper long A time and one nap!
Sooo today we have music class till 10:15 so she will have to stay awake. She will fall asleep in the car on the way home so may not get a longer nap but at least the morning A time will be long! Hopefully that will lead to a later wake up tomorrow.
7 am waking sounds great but I have to wake her up by 12 to pick up my son, so I think I will try to keep the nap at 10:30 for as long as I can. I know we'll have to gradually move it later but if I can keep the 2 naps till summer break in June it would be ideal! Otherwise her nap would likely fall during the time I have to pick him up. We will see how today goes!
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Ah I see. Well you can have some control over that first nap time by adjusting her morning WU time if needed (moving WU earlier, moving BT earlier if needed, then all naps remain earlier and you should be able to fit naps around the school run). Seems like you're doing well for now :)
Wow long A time, she did well. It must be nice for you to know that she can handle that once in a while so that if you get a rubbish nap day you don't have to stress out over it :)
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I woke up at 5:15 this morning and she was already awake. We had a long day yesterday with two short car naps. She ended up falling asleep in the car at 10:08 am and slept 40 mins, so her morning A time was 4h35m. I won't put too much stock in the early waking because it was a long day (total A time of 11.5 hours). Because of the short naps yesterday, I put her to bed early and she fell asleep at 6:15 so if she slept till 5 then she got 10h45m. Sigh... I will try to be patient but it literally seems like no matter what I do she wakes up early!
I will put her down at 10:15 today, which will be more than 5 hours A time. Not sure how I'm going to get her there or what kind of nap I'll get. Will be interesting!
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She seems like she wants to fall back to sleep and I feel like I should go nurse her back to sleep and that's it's mean to keep her up over 5 hours when she had a short night. She was yawning and wanting to fall asleep yesterday after less than 4 hours but we had activities so that helped keep her awake. I'm not feeling super confident about all this right now. 🙁
If she woke at 4 and fussed, I would nurse her, is there a general rule of thumb (after a certain amount of hours sleep or a certain time in the morning) that I don't nurse her and consider her up for the day?
She has reflux, allergies and food sensitivities so I've been more gentle with her and nurse her when she wants it because it helps settle her tummy. However, right now she's laying quietly and not fussing...
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Put her down at 10:12, asleep at 10:15, awake at 10:50. I haven't been able to extend naps in months, she usually either poops or wants to eat once she's awake. She usually has a 3h35-45m second A time. Do I keep it the same? Thinking maybe putting her down at 3h25m so A time is about 3.5 hours.
I know in the grand scheme of things this is really not a big deal but I'm so tired of waking up so early and just feel so discouraged. Life was easier when she woke to eat at 3 and went back to sleep till 6:30 or 7!
UPDATE: I popped into her room and gave her back her paci somehow without her seeing me and she went back to sleep!!!!
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It was a messy day again. After going back to sleep she slept another 55 mins, 90 mins total. Long story short, she refused naps the rest of the day (we had a reflux flare up from a new food), she wouldn't even nurse to sleep. Gave up trying at 4:20, put her to bed early and she was asleep by 6. She's woken up several times crying since then so clearly overtired. I may nurse her back to sleep tomorrow or I G if she wakes early, just to get the poor kid some sleep.
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Is she on reflux meds? Is it controlled well enough?
Sorry - just remind me - have you tried a routine with a short CN in the morning and a longer nap in the afternoon? Just thinking maybe it would help with the school run in there as you are limited atm as to how late you can put her down for that morning nap before it ends up having to be capped.
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She is not on meds, they didn't work, but we have successfully controlled it with diet, both mine and hers. However, occasionally as we test new foods we have issues. I haven't tried a morning catnap yet because I've never had a good and steady pm nap, and because I'd rather keep the afternoons more open to be able to do things with my 5 yo rather than be stuck inside for a nap. However, if that's the only option then I can try!
I'd like to keep trying the longer am nap for a bit tho as I think I just keep mistiming her pm nap. She seems to have a window that she needs to go down by and if I miss it, she just won't sleep. I could be wrong though! I also think as the am A time gets longer, she seems to need a shorter pm A time so will have to figure that out.
Anyway, she fell asleep last night at 5:53 and slept till 5:35 this morning. She had some wakeups but they were brief. I think 5 hours A time yesterday was too long so will put her down at 10:15 again today and see how it goes. Once we make it to 6 am (if that ever happens!) I can push the nap later I think?
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Ok so she slept 50 mins only with an A time of 4h40m. So maybe she needs 5 plus hours before her nap??? That just seems so unlikely because she was at 3.5 hours for a couple months then slowly progressed to 4 hours last month and now all of a sudden needs 5? Maybe she's ready for one nap? Or maybe the short nap was from an accumulation of OT?
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So looking back to a couple days ago, she had an A time of 4h10m, went down at 10:05 and slept 1h18m. So a shorter A time, earlier nap and longer nap than yesterday's. I don't think she necessarily needs a longer A time I think maybe something else is going on? I'm not sure what tho...
Yesterday:
Woke 5:35
Sleep 10:18-11:08
Sleep 2:48-3:12
Sleep 6:30 pm
Woke this morning between 5 and 5:15, hard to tell as she was rolling around with eyes closed changing out her pacis.
How long do I try putting her to bed with this long A time before I try something else?
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I so badly want to go in and nurse her back to sleep right now but maybe I'm just prolonging things if I do?
The earliest her nap has been in a week is 10:08 (once) and that was because she fell asleep I. The car. Every other day has been 10:15/10:30. She is waking up the same time or earlier.
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Sorry for so many posts and all the frustration. I read back through your replies and think I've been looking at this wrong. As you said, we can't get too hung up in A times, which is what I've been stuck on. I think what you've been trying to tell me is the nap needs to be at a later hour, meaning time of day, and I just haven't been hearing it right! I did end up nursing her back to sleep and she slept on me till 7. I will use the later wake up to push the nap later, as you suggested a few posts ago. Will see how 10:45 works out.
As her nap shifts later I'll just have to wake her early, or see if I can leave her home sleeping while hubby works (I'm fortunate that her works from home).
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I think what you've been trying to tell me is the nap needs to be at a later hour, meaning time of day, and I just haven't been hearing it right! I did end up nursing her back to sleep and she slept on me till 7. I use the later wake up to push the nap later, as you suggested a few posts ago.
Yes
and
As her nap shifts later I'll just have to wake her early,
Yes. This will be the shortening nap then, shorter morning nap and longer afternoon nap. Although I understand that you don't want a longer afternoon nap it might be the only option until on one nap she can hold out until after the school run and do a lunch time nap. For this she needs to stay up until say 12.30 or so I am guessing (not sure when you are home from school).
If DH is able to mind her during the school run this could be an interim solution.
Will see how 10:45 works out.
Personally I would have move it to 11 with the 7am WU, 4hrs A and a 1hr nap before having to wake her up.
The later naps will also help to move BT a bit later too - looks like she is doing about 11 or 11.5hrs over night which is more than mine ever did. It's a pretty good night even if it doesn't feel so great when you are getting up early.
Some LOs manage these routines with two 1hr naps btw. I've seen examples of this so it might be something you could consider as you prefer not to have a long pm nap.
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Ok great! She was awake a full hour before I nursed her back to sleep, so I didn't want to push it too far. I always leave her until she starts fussing as she does occasionally fall back to sleep. If she wakes early again (5 or 5:30), is it ok to nurse her back to sleep again
To help get her to 10:45 or 11? Going from 5 am to 10:45 just seems crazy.
My husband often has work calls during the day so I can't always leave her but between help from him and asking neighbors to pick my son up I might be able to get to June without having to wake her too often. Once upon a time, she would sleep 12-12.5 hours if she had a day with 2 short naps, she handled it fine so maybe we can get there again.
My fear about the short am nap is that I won't be able to get a longer pm nap, as I've never really had a good consistent pm nap With her.
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Update: she slept till 6 am!!!! Wooohoooo! I will keep her at 10:45 for a day or two more and then maybe shift it a bit later. Soooo excited! This is the first time she's made it to 6 am without nursing her back to sleep in 2 weeks!
Thank you so much for your support, I'm sorry it took me so long to figure out what you were saying! Fingers crossed things go well today and for at least a few days now. LOL She's due for another developmental leap in a few days.
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:)
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Ok so yesterday:
Wake 6 am
Sleep 10:47-12:35 (i woke her for fear of pm nap being too late)
Put her down for second nap at the 3h35m mark (4:10) because this is what has worked recently and she wouldn't go down.
Finally at 4:50 pm I nursed her to sleep.
Sleep 4:55-5:25 pm (fitful and broken sleep)
Bed time she looked tired so put her down probably a little too late at 7:37 pm
Slept 7:45-5:58, so a fairly short night.
Any suggestions for second nap? Maybe I put her down too late? Or too early? Cap first nap at 12?
It was hard making it to 10:45 after an almost 11 hour night yesterday. Making it there today is likely to be harder after just over 10 hours of night sleep and I'm worried about OT.
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Just found two new teeth. Could be why we had an issue with nap 2 yesterday! But she slept fine all night!
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You're doing great - a certain degree of winging it is likely needed right through the 2-1 and all the teething.
I wouldn't worry to much about the morning nap time and OT as she looks like she can do a good nap and I think not so long back she did a super long A time and handled it brilliantly so try not to be too fearful. Even if you have the perfect A time she could still have a disturbed nap due to teething.
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Thank you! I stuck to the 10:45 and she did great. Slept just under 1h20m. Tried 3h35m for second A time again and she's in their fussing and crying. Both today and yesterday she went down easy for nap 1, for nap 2 she fusses for 5 mins, then for quiet around 3h40m when she usually falls asleep, almost fell asleep a few times and then went fully awake and started talking and chatting. I can't tell if she needs a shorter second A time because of the longer morning A time or if she needs more A time before going down for second nap. I will have to try both I guess, but any thoughts here? Pm nap has always been a struggle...
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I can't tell if she needs a shorter second A time because of the longer morning A time or if she needs more A time before going down for second nap
It might not be either. She might just have teeth movement which is not painful enough to cry but is bothersome enough to prevent her relaxing for sleep.
I tend to think UT on most stuff though, so if it was me I'd increase the A 10 mins. Doesn't mean I'm right though!
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I will try 10 mins later! Absolutely know it's not for sure but somewhere to start! If it's the teeth tho, you'd think it would affect the am nap too! Although maybe she's. Although maybe she's not super tired and if it wasn't for the teeth she'd be able to fall asleep? Whereas for the first nap she's more tired?
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Tried 10 mins later today and same thing happened. She rolled around for 5 mins, got quiet and almost fell asleep, then went fully awake and for all chatty again. I've nursed her to sleep the last two days and will probably do that again today but that obviously is not a good solution.
Could she already be ready for one nap? If I put her down much later it just makes the day waaay too long. The first A time is already 4-5 hours, if the second is 4 hours.
She did the 6+ hour A time before bed last week and did fine, so maybe if I get her to sleep till at least 12 and she refuses the second nap, I nurse her at 6 and put her to bed? She only slept 11 hours that night and woke at 5:30 am but that was before I pushed the nap to 10:45 am. So maybe she'd sleep till 6!?!
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Try the extra 10 mins for a couple of days I think, then maybe another 10 mins onto that. You don't have to let the day get longer, you can try to cap that nap at the usual time, so giving 20 mins or 10 mins nap instead of 30 mins (I think you were giving 30) and then a shorter A to BT too.
She could well be ready to move to 1nap but my experience of moving to 1 nap was pretty messy. I thought my DS would hold on to his good 2hr nap and just skip the CN - he didn't - he started short napping 20 mins at a time. Horrible. So I am cautious to encourage you to move to one nap early yk?
It is of course your decision though. You can try it. If so I'd move that morning nap as late as you can bare without too much OT then do EBT.
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Ok will keep trying... do I just keep nursing her to sleep for second nap? Assuming she keeps refusing...
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Hmm..well I wouldn't nurser to sleep but then my LO wasn't BF and didn't have a feed to sleep prop, ever, there's no way he would have accepted a bottle if he wasn't hungry. I did engage in some super-serious APOP on occasion though. He was seriously hard to AP my DS and it was mighty hard work to make it happen but sometimes it was worth it to get him to sleep some.
I think you might have luck with increasing the A time a bit and not need to feed to sleep but if you feel APOP is needed then sure you can go ahead. The good news about APing at this point is that it isn't going to be forever, the nap will get dropped and along with it any prop you have in place.
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Well I always nurse her after the nap so she is generally hungry at this time, especially after rolling around for 30+ minutes. My husband has occasionally been successful at getting her to sleep but often takes an hour of him holding his hand on her back, which we just don't have time for. If I try to comfort her by doing this, walking her around, rocking her, etc., she just screams and throws her paci. So it's either get her up or nurse her. She's been a really indepent sleep since 6 months or so, but when she wants to eat, she wants to eat. There was a time when I'd already nursed her before pm nap and she wouldn't nurse back to sleep and wouldn't settle so we gave up and had no nap.
I won't always be able to nurse her because I have my 5yo who has activities some days so we will at some point just have no second nap and see how she does. I'm inching the first nap later (5 mins every 3 days) so maybe that will help us get to one nap eventually. She's going down at 10:50 am now.
However, she just started her developmental leap and her teeth are coming in so the past two mornings I've had to nurse her at 4/5 am. Good news is, she always rights herself after the leaps and teeth, I just hope she does the same as she gets older!
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Wow, she woke at 5:45 am, napped from 10:45-1:05, figured it was ridiculous to have her nap at almost 5 so I put her down at 4:15 just for kicks and she fell asleep at 4:20!!! So looks like she needs a shorter second A time with a longer morning A time. Whew!
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:) That sounds good, I hope it can continue :)
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I could use some help still unfortunately! I'm still getting early wakings (before 6 am) and short nights (10 hours, maybe a little more). How can I tell if it's a need to push the first nap more or if I'm putting her to bed too late? Guessing it will be a little bit of trial and error but maybe you can suggest what to try? This was yesterday:
Woke 5:45
S 10:45-1:05
S 3:20-3:45
Bed time 7:15 asleep at 7:45
Slept 10 hours, awake at 5:45
While this is a definite improvement over the last weeks of early wakings, I'd love a wake up between 6 and 6:30 and a slightly longer night!
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There's a chance at this point that you might need to just put up with the shorter night fora little while. Once that CN is dropped you will likely get a longer night again. I realise it is tiring to have the later BT and the earlier Wu but if she still needs 2 naps this might be the most comfortable way to get through a few more weeks until she is a bit older and can handle the transition a bit better.
You can try to change it - of course you can - only with a good first nap, a reasonable CN and a relatively steady 10hr night I'm not sure I'd personally want to risk upsetting the routine just yet.
Totally your choice.
If the times in your last EASY are relatively stable you could shift the whole day one by 15 mins, wait a couple of days and shift it all again. Then you ought to get a WU after 6am. In theory.
Another option is to cap the second nap a bit shorter again. Is that A time before BT getting a bit long though? You could put her down for that second nap 10 min later (might be an easier PD) and cap it at 3.45 still. Maybe make the last A a touch shorter??
What do you think - LOs are all so different but I'm trying to think along the lines of the preference being for a longer first A and shorter for the others.
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Well I'm trying my hardest to stay on 2 naps, but what works one day doesn't work the next. Is that typical for this transition? I'm going crazy with all the ups and downs. One day a certain A time will work, the next it won't. One day a certain naptime will work the next it won't. She resisted her first nap yesterday and went down late and did fine, but because it was such a late nap, we did one nap and still got a short night. I occasionally get an 11+ hour night but most are 10-10.5, even with two short naps, a long nap and a short nap, or one long nap...
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what works one day doesn't work the next. Is that typical for this transition?
Yes I'm afraid so. Some people get an easier time of it than others of course but yes it is a difficult transition. The 2-1 was the hardest for me I am sure.
If she is napping, one long one short or two short or just one long nap...I wouldn't worry too much about the shorter night for now. The night length doesn't seem to lengthen until LO has finished the transition and settled down on one nap. Even if you move directly to one nap per day the nights are likely to stay short for a while and gradually lengthen with possibly some random longer catch up nights thrown in.
I know the earlier waking and shorter nights are a pain though.
You can of course just move directly to one nap and ride it out. She will get used to it over a period of time and you might feel things are easier by just having a set nap time, one nap, and a set BT. What do you think?
ETA: I'm going to move you over to Toddler Sleep as I think your LO is now 12 months - hope that's right :)
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Ok thank you! That's good to know, and I'll try to keep hope that things will get better. Ever since we sleep trained at 5 months she's been a mostly great sleeper, very independent, etc. Never too picky about bed time, always making up short nap days at night. She dropped naps super easy and fast.
It's been messy for 2 months now and now that she's in her leap it's even worse!
I will ride it out though. Thank you so much! And yes, she's 1 now! 😊
I may skip to one nap but we'll see!
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Any suggestions for figuring out how to get a second nap? If we make it to 12 pm for the first nap, I can put her to bed st 5:45 and she seems to do pretty well. However, today she only slept till 11:49 for her first nap. I put her down for second nap at 3h55m A time (this worked last Saturday so thought I'd try it again) and she is fighting her nap again. I don't want to put her down earlier than 5:45, even that seems to be waaay too early. How the heck do I figure out how to get a second nap? I was nursing her to sleep for the second nap, but then she seemed to want to be nursed for first nap too, so I stopped that. She doesn't respond well to being rocked or walked around.
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It's a real pain when they refuse a second nap isn't it. I think really all you can do is either try again later, a short CN and cap it then give a late BT if she refuses BT too. Or just go with your EBT, expect the worst and hope for the best, I always felt better if I expected OT NWs in the early part of the night and kind of resigned myself to a bad night, often the reality was better than my expectation.
Such a tricky transition period this.
hugs
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Hi there! Just checking in...we've found an ok rythym with second nap now. First nap is at 11:15 am. Second nap is roughly 4 hrs later depending on how long first nap is. Longer nap = longer A time needed. It's still a bit of a guessing game but I've been getting second napsnalmost every day now. Just keeping them short for a manageable bed time. Bed time has been around 7/7:30 and wake up is still all over the place but we've been sick and have more teeth, so to be expected.
My question is, how long do I keep pushing nap later? She usually sleeps 1h10m - 1h30m, so assume I can keep pushing gradually? Yesterday she slept over 2 hours till 1:20 so I didn't bother with a third nap and tried for an EBT but she wouldn't go down till 7:20, which is 6 hours. Not sure if she was OT or UT. She looked tires but that doesn't always mean anything with her. Anyway, do I keep pushing nap later? How do I know when to stop?
thank you!
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Sorry I'm a bit confused
slept over 2 hours till 1:20 so I didn't bother with a third nap and tried for an EBT
you mean she refused second nap? not third, there is not third is there?
So she is usually doing 2 naps, usually accepts the second nap and usually you cap it to maintain BT - great.
If she sleeps longer for nap 1 (the 2hr you mention) I think I would still go for the second nap but keep it short, just to maintain consistency in the day for as long as it can remain consistent. Some people keep that second nap and cap it shorter and shorter until it's just 10 mins even. And it sounds like she will accept the second nap more readily than she will accept EBT. Unless I've misunderstood you.
If at any point she consistently refuses the second nap that's a time when you ned to push that first nap later even if she seems tired and ready for it, so that you don't have lots of days adding up with super long second A times. Better to have them a bit more even.
If I haven't answered what you were asking let me know!
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Oh goodness! Yes, second nap, no third, sorry! So I'm already at the point of capping the second nap depending on how late the nap is, anywhere from 15-30 mins. The minimum A time she seems to need after a good first nap is 4 hours. So if she sleeps till 1:45 like she did yesterday, the second nap would be at 5:45. Would that be too late for a nap?
She usually accepts EBT, but I think I've figured out that she needs to be in bed by 6:30 if we're doing EBT. When I put her down at 6:45 she was already OT.
Anyway, the second nap was one question.
The other was when can I stop pushing the am nap later for a bit? I got it to 11:15. Today she slept later so o pushed it to 11:30 and she slept 1h20m. Can I keep it there for a bit as long as the morning wake up isn't too early?
Thank you!!
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So if she sleeps till 1:45 like she did yesterday, the second nap would be at 5:45. Would that be too late for a nap?
For some it would be too late, for some it would be fine. I would think if she is generally refusing EBT than you generally need to try for the micro-nap of 10 mins or so. If this causes her to refuse BT at the regular time you can move BT a bit later however if it causes it to push BT to a silly-late time then I would drop the micro-nap. It's more about what happens over an extended period rather than each day. Hope that makes sense. In terms of how late BT can be moved, well for me personally I wouldn't go later than 8pm.
You might be able to do CN 5.45 - 6 and 8pm BT for example as it is only a 10-15 min nap, if she doesn't constantly refuse BT.
I hope this makes sense.
The other was when can I stop pushing the am nap later for a bit? I got it to 11:15. Today she slept later so o pushed it to 11:30 and she slept 1h20m. Can I keep it there for a bit as long as the morning wake up isn't too early?
Yes I'd stop there. Try to maintain a balance so that there is no nap refusal due to UT, so that the nap is long enough to be restorative (or the best you can get) and so that WU time doesn't start getting earlier. This way you can continue the little CN later on and maintain a reasonable BT.
As soon as there is consistency with EW or nap refusal then you'll probably need to go to one nap and at a slightly later time to balance the day.
I'm aware I am not being very clear with my thoughts at the moment, I have some pain bothering me which is making it harder to explain myself. Sorry about that. Hope this helps some though x
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Yes that all makes sense, thank you! Hope you feel better!
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Curious as to why she would refuse EBT? Today she woke at 6 am, napped from 11:10-12:30, refused a nap at 4:30 and at 5. Put her down at 6:15 and she went ballistic. She's gone from 12-6 before and gone down easy and slept well so wondering why she is all of a sudden refusing EBT. I'm sure she's OT and she is teething so maybe it's just that?
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Try not to read too much into it when it is only one day. Yes, it could be some OT and/or teething, or she is just used to her BT and doesn't like it to change.
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So she fussed at BT last night but ended up falling asleep at 6:25, slept till 6:05 am. Awesome!
Today she napped from 11:15-11:05, also awesome but refuses second nap again. If I put her down at the same time I did last night, that makes her total A time for the day 10.5 hours. Before when we didn't have enough awake time during the day she seemed to have these weird awake periods at 4 am where she'd need to be awake for 2 hours. I know I won't get an answer before I put her down, but curious to know what you would recommend in these circumstances. Do I put her down at same EBT or push it a few minutes or?
Thanks again!
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she napped from 11:15-11:05,
not sure how long she napped as you have a typo here.
I would go for the EBT again. Middle of the night cot parties due to UT in the past are not necessarily going to show up again now. It is a different routine and different age/developmental stage. Of course it is hard to know for sure what will happen, but trying to keep those A times relatively balanced and not over long due to CN refusal is a bit of a guessing game.
How many days in a row has she refused the second nap?
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Been reading your posts and we're in almost exactly the same situation! My lo (nearly 14m) is terrible for afternoon nap refusal. She also suffers with reflux and we are exploring a possible dairy intolerance. So it's very hard to know if refusal is due to one of these things (she often gets trapped wind in the afternoon) or a nap development thing! I also have an older one that I have to pick up from school so have to leave at 11.45 and don't get home until 12.30 and this messes things right up. My lo seems to need a longer A in the morning which means her morning. So is getting very short as I have to wake her, but then she often will refuse the afternoon one and I end up having to cuddle her to sleep in her room and unfortunately she wakes if I try to put her down so I have to stay there :-( So reading your suggestions with interest!x
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Thanks for stopping by with support clarem100 :)
Do feel free to start your own thread too for individual support with your particular need.
One thing some people manage is to move LOs WU time in the morning so it is as late as possible before the school run in the morning which helps to move the nap later. eg
WU 8.30 (and dart out to school)
nap 12.30 (after 4hr A) - 2.30
nap 5.30 - 6
BT 9pm/9.30pm which is later than I'd like but it could be something to think about. When the CN is dropped the BT would naturally come earlier again.
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That would be a dream to have her wake at 8.30 haha!
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Sorry we've all been sick trading it back and forth for 3+ weeks, will were when things get back to "normal."
Thank you!
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Oh that sounds horrible :(
Hope you are all on the mend now! x
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We are, finally, thanks! But now dealing with time change issues and trying to get used to having nap and bed time an hour later, which is good, just so different! Sigh...it's never ending!
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Ok after time change hell and another round of sickness, we have been doing a 12 pm (due to time change, it was 11 am) set nap and a set bed time of 7/7:30. If she sleeps a 20-30 min nap for some strange reason (stroller or car) I can get her a second nap but sometimes has to APOP. So she's been on one nap for the better part of 2 weeks. Her nap ranges from 1h10m to 2h10m. I can't push it later at this point because I leave her home with hubby, he works from home, while she sleeps so I can get my son from school. So I have to have her asleep by 12:15.
Anyway, my issue is now, she wakes every morning between 4 and 5 and won't go back down without nursing. One night she woke at 1:30 and wanted to nurse and then went back down till 6:50am. Anyway, it's not the end of the world to nirse once a night, but she was sleeping through (albeit most times only 10.5-11 hours. Would be nice to get back to that!
Any suggestions? She's 13.5 months now. Thank you!
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Not sure, sorry. Do you want to post on BF or perhaps here on the Toddler board about the NWs and NFs to resettle her??
The only thin I can think of is that she is still settling into the new one nap routine and it's a bit messy (as is often the case) or possibly teething? but there could be something else that someone else would see?