BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: Chloevalentine on January 09, 2017, 15:29:36 pm
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My lo will be 6 months next week. We've struggled with naps the entire 6 months! Just when I thought we were on a good new routine it gets all messed up. Most recently he was handing 3 hours A time in the morning because he has to with school drop off but that only lasted a few days. Now I'm getting 20 min naps or no naps or sometimes an hour! He cries before every nap. Why is naptime so difficult. There must be something I'm missing. Maybe he's A times are off? I've got to get him to nap and on some kind of routine.
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Big hugs. I found naps and routines very unpredictable for both of mine for the first year. It's not anything you're doing or missing, it's just the way little babies are, constantly changing and developing so nap times and routines keep changing too. The short naps might just be a blip due to a developmental leap, or teeth or some other baby reason. Those A times sound about right for his age. I'd hang on in there, and keep the times you had. I think the better naps will return when whatever has thrown him off right now has passed.
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We've had a few days now where he wakes around 630/45 and falls asleep in car as we are almost home. I transfer him to crib but he only sleeps 20 mins. Then he goes down 2 hours later. Yesterday he slept For an hour was up by 1230 but then I tried to put him down at 330 and he wast falling asleep not tired I tried again a bit later but think he was ot by then and did bedtime at 6! He's only been doing two naps so trying to get three is hard.
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Same day as yesterday. I can't get him to nap this afternoon and he's miserable.
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Could he be in 3-2 transition? He's at right age for it? Some LOs need an AP-ed 3rd nap when they are at this stage. Is that possible? I think I tried to be out in the afternoon with my 2 and on the way home around 3rd nap time so I could get DD to take it in buggy or car.
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But he's only taking one nap in the morning!
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Sorry, from your last posts it sounded like he was taking 2 naps and resisting the 3rd.
Could you post his typical routine, or last few days in EASY format?
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Hi typical routine is up around 6/630
A6/630
E depends on wgat time he woke during night to eat but every 4 hrs solids hour later
S 930-1030/11
A11-2/3 solids hour later or so
E 2/3
S can't get him to sleep here I've tried 2.5-3 hrs A time it's always a struggle lots of crying and takes forever sometimes I bring him downstairs and try again in 20-30 mins if he does sleep it's 30 mins to an hour but it's a struggle. Any suggestions
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I can't get him down before four hours A time in the afternoon. And then sometimes he only sleeps a half hour. Today I can't get him to nap at all this afternoon! Any suggestions?
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Hmmm, not sure. Does he settle easily for his first nap?
Some people find that a short-long routine works for their little ones. You could try capping first nap at 45mins and see if that helps get an easier, longer pm nap? Probably after around 3hrs A time after waking?
I hesitate to suggest that though as he's young for nap capping & it could mean more OT if he doesn't take a longer 2nd nap but maybe try it for a few days but stop if you feel it's not helpful.
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Yeah I don't think I'm willing to do it lol. Is 4 hours A time long before second nap?
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It is a longer than average A time for a 6mo, but if he WO 't settle before then, what can you do?
My DD would do 4hrs from end of 2nd nap until BT and wouldn't go to sleep at night with any less than 4hrs after end of 2nd nap.
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Oh my that's a long time ! Today he was up around 12 from his first nap I put him down at 330 for second nap a lot less crying but he's just awake in there up on his elbows a bit of complaining. Could he not be tired? How much later of a nap can I do?
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He settled and fell asleep around 345 I wonder if I should wake him by 430 in order to be in bed by seven
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Good to know that he will sleep given time.
Up to you when you want to wake him. 4.30 sounds reasonable though.
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We were doing so good for a while and now we are back to 30 min naps and nws! Any suggestions ?
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I just tried shorter A times 2.5 hrs instead of 3 and it's helping. Maybe just until we catch up and get past the ot then go back to 3? With the shorter a time it makes two naps hard he really needs three but I can't ever get him to take that late catnap. Which is why he does better with the longer a times and the two naps. Maybe the OT was also causing the night wakings
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Ok scratch that just got a 30 min nap ugh!
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Just wanted to let you know I'm in the same boat! My 6mo naps (and sometimes night sleep) are all over the place and playing around with A times sometimes helps sometimes doesn't! It's very confusing and frustrating. Hopefully it will all work out for us soon...
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It really is frustrating right! We are also getting nws that are usually soon after or a couple hours after bedtime and I'm not sure why. We've also been get ews around 5 am which he just started doing again. I don't know what's going on or what to do!
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Any ideas as to why the early nws and ews and short naps are happening?
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I think your LO is about 7 months now is that right?
Would you like to post a recent EASY - what are you aiming for these days?
Is he self settling and going to sleep independently for both naps and BT or are you needing to help?
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Hi there yes 7 months ! He does self settle although sometimes he does need some help at that second nap. Here's an average easy although days are different based upon length of naps:
Wakes 5-6 some days I can feed and get him back to sleep but most I can't.
Ideal would be 6 at earliest
A 6
E bottle hour later solids
S 915/30 - 10/11. He can sleep 30 mins or up to 1.5 hrs. We are in the car for school run from 844-915 sometimes he starts to fall asleep but I'm able to transfer him groggy to crib or he's awake and goes down easily self settles. This A time can be very long if he's up at 530 and not down for nap until 915.
E if he ate at 5/ 530 sometimes I'll feed him right before school drop off if he ate later around 6/630 I'll feed him when he wakes from nap whenever that is and solids hour later
S the next nap I'll usually put him down after 3 hrs A time or around 2. I've tried 2.5 hrs if his first nap is short from 930-10 but that usually is around the time we are in car for school pickup which is from 1245-115 so that doesn't work out. That afternoon nap is always tough. A lot of crying and me going in to try to settle and then he'll usually only sleep 30 mins!
So it usually is nap from 2/215- 245
E same thing depending on when he ate last I might try to feed him before his nap or after depending.
E 3 bottle solids hour later
By 530 he usually starts to get cranky and I'll usually bring him up for bedtime routine and bottle around 6 asleep by 630. Even on days where he does a decent nap of at least an hour and is up around 3 he still is tired and ready for bed so latest might be 7 bedtime.
No matter when he goes to sleep he's up around 5-6 am! How do I get morning wake up later around 6/630 and get a better afternoon nap?!
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I think you could try to move everything on by pushing that first nap later, to clearly after the school run. More like 10am.
If it was me I'd try to move by 15 mins per day for 3-4 days and use it almost as a "set" nap time. Yes he will likely be tired during those days because he has been up too early but the knock on effect "should" be later nap 2, later BT and later WU.
Although you've done a slightly later BT it's been after longer naps rather than later naps so I do think it's worth a full shift. It would also help (IMO) with the school run as he would get into the habit of staying awake up until getting home then going to bed nicely for his nap and you don't have the hassle and worry of the car to cot transfer.
What do you think??
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Most times he does stay awake he's just very groggy and ready for bed I hate to try to keep him up an extra 45 minutes and lose the window plus don't you think 4 hrs A time is too long as it is? He self settles especially for that first nap in the morning so there's no problem there so much it's that second nap that's tough and I don't know why. How late shoukd the nap be and how much A time ?
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I understand your reluctance in to increase the first A time however it is not really an increase, or not as much as you might think.
No matter when he goes to sleep he's up around 5-6 am! How do I get morning wake up later around 6/630 and get a better afternoon nap?!
You asked how to make him sleep later in the morning as the 5am WU is too early. Moving the first nap to 10am is a way of shifting morning WU time and making it more likely he takes a long nap every day rather than sometimes taking a shorter nap which throws off nap 2.
My suggestion is to shift things away from the school run. He might seem groggy and ready to sleep but in part that's because he's been awake since 5am and possibly also looking dopey from the car ride.
Here's how I think your day could look on the suggested shift:
WU 6.30/7
A 3.5hr/3hr
S 10.00 - 11.30
A 3hr (or might need 3hr 15)
S 2.30 - 4.00 (2.45 - 4.15)
A 3hr 15
BT 7.30pm
11hr night (which is roughly what you are getting now)
Although you've done a slightly later BT it's been after longer naps rather than later naps so I do think it's worth a full shift.
The difference with this also is that it reduces the A time before BT. You said even after a decent nap 2 he is awake by 3pm and BT is then later, at 7pm so there is sometimes a 4hr A time there, if this is too long for him (like is) then it can lead to EW the following morning.
If BT is earlier because he only had a 30 min nap 2.15-2.45 and BT is at 6.30 he is getting 3hr 45 A time before BT - again it can be too long
Whilst you are concerned about increasing the A time through my suggestions (but it does not go beyond the guidance A times if you review the sample EASY above) he is already getting longer than this due to EW and short naps.
He self settles especially for that first nap in the morning so there's no problem there so much it's that second nap that's tough and I don't know why.
Often it is not about moving just one nap but looking at the bigger picture of the entire day and night together. In this case I have looked over your times and the information you have given and tried to work out the best overall routine to aim for.
It is of course up to you what you choose to do :)
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Thank you for all that information I'll def give it a try! So if he wakes up at 530 AM tomorrow morning I'm supposed to wait until 10 to put him down for a nap? That if I get a good nap the second one around 230? But if I only get a short second nap again until three what time should I do bed? 7 bed would be ideal since big brother goes to bed at 730. That way I can get the baby to sleep and then get the big guy to sleep. It's three hours at a time before bed typical ?
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I wouldn't take him right up to 10am in one step, no. If you have a look back I suggested moving in 15 min increments each day.
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Well today he slept until 615!! So he went down awake at 930! Good start. If he only sleeps until 1030 do I still wait until 230 for second nap ? We will be out this afternoon so afternoon nap might be in car. But on average willl the A times eventually look more like 3.5 hrs with 2 naps of 1.5 each? That would be wonderful he's never really done two good naps in a day.
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He only slept an hour barely. So he woke at 615 slept from 930-1025. So should I still try nap at 230 that's 4 hours A time?
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He only slept an hour barely. So he woke at 615 slept from 930-1025.
Look like you put him down too early today. You can try later tomorrow.
9.30 is the same time as in your EASY (9.15/9.30) and that was after an earlier WU so I wouldn't have expected a good nap from it.
Perhaps it felt 15 min later to you because you often do 9.15am but with the later WU it ended up a shorter A time - hope that makes sense.
You just have to wing it the rest of the day and do what you can around your commitments :)
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Ok so if he wakes at 6/630 do I wait until 10 to put him down? How early should I do bedtime when we don't get good afternoon naps ?
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So today he was up around 615/30 which was great then I put him down for nap around 950 he cried for a minute but fell asleep pretty quickly. He was then up 20-30 mins later. I realized it was time for him to eat so I fed him and try to put him back down with no luck. The feeding is when nap time is.
Now what do I do for next nap?
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I was able to get him back to sleep after feeding and sitting with him. He fell back at 11:10!
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Keep a check on when E and S are coming throughout the day - any clashes you can see coming just move the E time. If it falls towards the start of the nap time then feed earlier, before nap. If it is falling towards the end of nap time then leave LO to nap and feed on waking.
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Im desperate for some more suggestions. The wake up differs one day it's 5 the next is 6 but the problem is the second nap. I literally can't get him to take one. So he's up from 11 until bedtime!
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What time are you doing first nap and how long is he sleeping? Is it a reliable nap at the same time and for the same length every day?
and what times are you trying for that second nap? and for how long ar you trying? What methods are you trying (eg shush/pat, PUPD, WIWI, APOP? If APOP what sort?)
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Typically he's up at 6 goes down for nap at 930 until around 11. This nap is pretty reliable lately. The second nap I try around 230. It's hard to spend too much time getting him to nap as my older lo is home at this time. But yesterday I tried the car I tried feeding him because it got close to feeding time. When he does nap it's usually like 215-245. Today second day he was up at 5 yesterday I managed to get him back to bed for a little while but today I wasn't so he's already down for nap at 8!
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Today he's already up from nap 8-820. 20!min nap!! Not sure what the rest of the day will look like now. Or when his next nap will be. Ugh I just thought we'd be in a better schedule by 7.5 months.
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I can only suggest what I have already suggested really. I see you want different suggestions but it's all I have.
The first nap IMHO needs to be moved later to regulate the WU and first nap time so that it is constant, I see this as helping with nap 2.
It's not clear when you are trying for nap 2:
The second nap I try around 230.
When he does nap it's usually like 215-245.
The earlier WUs can be caused by either the first nap coming too early or the second nap finishing too early leaving a long A time before BT. In your case it can be a combination of both of those things.
If you look back there is a sample routine I gave you - really it is my suggestion and still my suggestion. Getting onto an appropriate and settled routine happens more quickly when you follow the times and LO can learn when to sleep by consistency and habit.
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But today being that he was up at 5 I couldn't have him up for 5 hours before first nap at 10! Even when he's up at 6/630 he naps at 10 like you said but he still won't go down for that second nap! Am i just off with that second A time ?
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He's been up at 5/515 all week and I can't get him back to sleep. It's awful I'm exhausted and frustrated. Between that and the 30 min or non existent naps. He's got to be ot no? I sure am
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Sorry chloevalentine I am not able to offer any other suggestions.
Yesterday you said WU was usually 6am and nap at 9.30 and is reliable, but today you say he's been up at 5am all week, so the WU is not reliable, neither is the first nap. My suggestion is to look at the whole routine, not at one nap.
He's got to be ot no?
Probably yes, as I said, I believe the A time before BT is far too long, making LO OT and can cause EW.
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Unfortunately he's been up at either 415 or 5 all week! His nap is about 1 hour in the morning depending on if I've gotten him back to sleep. I've been feeding him when he wakes at 415 and he will go back to sleep until 6/615 then nap from 930-1030. Even with a later or longer second nap and later bedtime he's actually waking earlier in the morning! So none of the typical reasons for ew are applicable with him. It's been such a hard week. He's 7.5 months old and he's been waking around 4 am the entire time. It's so frustrating and very exhausting.
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What time are you doing the first nap now?
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Well today for example he woke up at 4:15 I fed him got him back to sleep until about 615 and I went back to the 930 nap he napped until 1030 Then took another nap at 2:30 and Is still sleep at 3:30. So today was a good day. Not sure what time I'll to bed time.
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Even after a good day of naps lo was still up at 415 this morning !
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2 weeks ago I suggested you move the first nap to 10am and have explained that in in terms of routine I look at the entire day, not individual days, naps or A times but the whole day. I'm afraid I don't have another suggestion. I see you have chosen not to move the nap which is totally your choice of course. But I'm afraid I cannot come up with other suggestions as I still believe this is one of the main problems with the routine.
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I've just never seen anyone suggest a 4+ hour A time for a 7 month old! With our schedule for school pick ups and drop offs it just doesn't work most days and if he's exhausted and napping for an hour why should I change it? Just don't understand how that effects ews. I know if it's a really short A time but 3.5 hours isn't. Then it brings that second nap kind of late at 3 and bedtime late and like I mentioned he's waking earlier since his bedtime is later.
I'm sorry if you are offended or frustrated but I was loooking for perhaps another opinion as I'm desperate. I've been on this site for a long time with both kids and Ive always felt comfortable to speak my concerns but I'm sort of turned off.
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Hi,
I'm no expert at all…but just wondering reading your last couple of updates - if he wakes at 4'ish and then goes back to sleep after a feed - could he just be hungry?
And if a quick feed gets him back to sleep until 6'ish when it's his proper wake up - then maybe just roll with that for a few weeks. Might just be a bit of a hungry phase.
Fair enough - if the feed doesn't get him back to sleep then something different needs to happen. But I don't think a 4am feed is that odd for a 7 month? Maybe I'm just a softy though :-)
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I've just never seen anyone suggest a 4+ hour A time for a 7 month old!
I have not suggested a 4hr+ A time (however some LOs do need that in some cases it totally depends on the LO).
I gave you a suggested routine 2 wks ago which shows it is not outside of guidance A times. It also works with the morning school run.
My suggestion is to shift things away from the school run. He might seem groggy and ready to sleep but in part that's because he's been awake since 5am and possibly also looking dopey from the car ride.
Here's how I think your day could look on the suggested shift:
WU 6.30/7
A 3.5hr/3hr
S 10.00 - 11.30
A 3hr (or might need 3hr 15)
S 2.30 - 4.00 (2.45 - 4.15)
A 3hr 15
BT 7.30pm
11hr night (which is roughly what you are getting now)
Then it brings that second nap kind of late at 3 and bedtime late
The second nap doesn't come as late as 3pm in my suggested routine, it's at 2.30 and BT is not particularly late, pretty normal for an EASY routine IMO.
And if a quick feed gets him back to sleep until 6'ish when it's his proper wake up - then maybe just roll with that for a few weeks. Might just be a bit of a hungry phase.
Great advice. Thanks for stopping by with your support :)
Chloevalentine, it's great that you've always felt comfortable to speak your concerns on the site - and so you should.
I also am comfortable to say that in my opinion an appropriate routine with suitable times, sleep training and consistency is key to reliable sleep times, nap lengths and night sleep. Implementing a suitable routine can take several days or more but it doesn't happen on it's own. I have also been on BW for several years now and have seen remarkable changes in sleep patterns when parents have followed BW methods and support from the community.
As you appear uncomfortable with my support I shall bow out of the thread and wish you luck.
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The 4/430 feeds and back to bed isn't so crazy if he's hungry and eating and going back to bed :)
But if he's up around 5/530 I can't get him back to bed. That's where it gets tricky. And also the idea of the 10 am nap which is 5 hrs A time I just don't understand.
I have tried to push it out like you suggested but I end up missing that sleepy window and have trouble getting him down for that nap at 10. Whereas at 930 he does go down easy and an average sleeps an hour. He's also been doing second nap around 230-3 depending on length of first nap and then waking around 4/430 and bedtime around 7. The naps have seem to gotten better which is why I'm reluctant. But the ews are just hard. I apologize if I sounded harsh. Sleep deprivation will do that to you. I'm also a huge believer in routine and my big lo sleeps wonderfully because of it. That's why I always post here because I do believe in the bw method. But I just feel that that half hour difference with the first nap just doesn't make sense or work for us. I'm not convinced that it's the only way to stop ews.