BabyWhispererForums.com

SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: airam on May 06, 2017, 13:17:59 pm

Title: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 06, 2017, 13:17:59 pm
I'm having difficulty with a times for 12month old.

if I use 3hr a times, I get 30mins minimum of babbling/whining at nap times and up to an hour at bedtime. obvious ut.

Im trying 3.5 hrs even though I feel that 3.75-4hr is better to get a good nap. 3.5hr a times still usually produces 1hr naps and I'm aiming for a least one 1.5hr nap minimum.

I should mention that there is always some resistance, from 10-15 mins even with 3.75hr of a time.

so for example, if

wu 7am
nap1 1045am-1245pm

...when should nap 2 be if I want a bedtime of no later than 730pm?

this is how today was and he's currently napping on me from 345pm and I'm hoping to cap it at 415pm...this second a time was only 3hrs and I know he would resist for at least 30mins, hence the arm napping. but I dont want to go back to this!
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on May 06, 2017, 17:54:33 pm
Hi there
I've moved your post over to toddler sleep board as your LO is now 12 months old :)

A times can be considerably longer for some LOs at this age as some have already moved to 1 nap and some are moving towards 1 nap
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

Here's some info on the 2-1 drop which might help, have a read and see what you think
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163278.0

From what you've said it sounds like you need a 4hr+ A time prior to one nap to get this as a long nap and a shorter A time prior to the other nap.  You can be the best judge as to whether the short morning nap with long afternoon nap is more suitable or the other way around.  You're looking for one long and one short nap - and the short nap can be capped even shorter as LO moves closer to dropping it.  You are also looking for nap lengths and A time lengths which lead to LO going down more easily so that you don't resort to napping in arms or there being huge resistance for the nap - although it has to be said at some point you might decide to do a 30 min nap in arms to get through to BT if/when LO gets to the point of totally refusing a second nap and the A time before BT is too long without a nap.

Hope this makes sense.  Have a read of the FAQ above and there are some additional links inside there and see what you think. We can help with advice and so on once you have an idea of what is expected at this age and have had a think about which nap you think is better long and which short (as you know LO best and your family circumstances and routine best).
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 07, 2017, 14:04:32 pm
Thanks. It does seem like a 4hr A time is needed now whereas before I could get away with less. I dont know how it works, though.

I mean, if there's a 4hr A time in the morning, then nap 1...when will nap 2 be? Bedtime?

Also, is it realistic to still have BT between 7pm-730pm? I feel like it will be towards 745-8pm. He always gets up between 640-745am even if he (finally) slept at 9pm. That's why I'm trying to maximize nighttime sleep.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on May 07, 2017, 18:49:40 pm
I mean, if there's a 4hr A time in the morning, then nap 1...when will nap 2 be? Bedtime?
If you see in my previous post I said it would be up to you regarding which nap would be the longer one and which the shorter - you can decide based on all sorts of reasons such as you have an idea which one LO would prefer to sleep longer on or there are more toddler groups you'd like to attend at a certain time of day etc.  If you let me know which is best for you I can show you an example of EASY times.

He always gets up between 640-745am even if he (finally) slept at 9pm. That's why I'm trying to maximize nighttime sleep.
I don't think you mentioned in your earlier post that there is BT resistance/refusal.
It is quite common for BT to move a bit later as LO gets closer to moving towards one nap but can't yet cope on one nap, fitting two naps into the day plus the longer A times does usually mean BT moves later... once you drop down to one nap though BT will move earlier again.
Let me know if you are somewhat flexible with BT or if it must be no later than 7.30pm as you said in your first post (I didn't realise LO was not going to sleep until 9pm - my personal limit was 8pm although having said that when he was dropping down to no naps at 2yo we did have some nights he refused until 9pm).
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 08, 2017, 07:12:08 am
Sorry, I thought I did mention it.

Yes, resistance can be up to an hour or even more. Thatès how he get's himself to 9pm. However, I realize now that that was only because I would put him down after 3hr of A time and he'd be UT'd. Now with 3.5hr A time before BT, he goes down much easier (only about 15mins of babbling/light crying).

I think I'll stick to a longer morning nap since that's what he's used to now. Also, because nap 2 is always harder, I feel like it'd last until 530pm.

What you said about a later BT makes sense for this phase. I guess 8pm would be the max since he still wakes up at night for feeds. If he has a good day, he only wakes up once around 5am and then up for the day at 640am.

Right now this is what I'm doing (since Saturday)

640-7am WU
1040am nap 1 (Saturday=2hrs/Sunday=1hr in bed and 1hr in arms)
340pm nap 2 (in arms for 30/45mins)
BT 740pm (asleep at around 8 )
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: Buntybear on May 08, 2017, 11:54:42 am
Right now this is what I'm doing (since Saturday)

640-7am WU
1040am nap 1 (Saturday=2hrs/Sunday=1hr in bed and 1hr in arms)
340pm nap 2 (in arms for 30/45mins)
BT 740pm (asleep at around 8 )

Hi This look pretty good to me! We would have a 13 hour day and 11 hour night at that age and did just what you are doing - long AM nap and APOP a short PM catnap. Glad you have figured out the UT BT shenanigans!
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on May 08, 2017, 17:46:53 pm
Yes looks good :)
You can even let that afternoon nap be shorter if LO can cope with it or in a few weeks time.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 09, 2017, 08:01:16 am
Thanks for your replies. I'm glad it looks normal. It seems to be working for us now.

The only problem is that he isn't sleeping for more than an hour for nap 1 on his bed even after the jump to 4hr (except Saturday). I'm going to try increasing his activity level in hopes of tiring him out...but what do I do if that doesn't work.

Also, what do you think about what happened yesterday

WU 640am
N1 1038am (cried harder than usual with coughing=OT...went quiet at 1044am)
-woke after 1hr and resisted being put down again.
-sleep in arms for 1hr, woke up and slept again for 1hr
-nap 1 = 3hrs! (2hrs in my arms)
N2 (It didn't happen. I tried at 330 when I saw him rub his eyes, then again at 400pm but the husband came in and the noise disturbed him)
BT 620 (he babbled and on and off cried until 640)
-no early night wakings! I dreamfed at about 5am

So far today
WU 650am
N1 1050~
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: Buntybear on May 09, 2017, 08:39:42 am
I imagine after a 3 hour nap he just wasn't tired enough for a 2nd nap. I would definately try and push his first A time out a bit and get a longer first nap with a view to cutting the 2nd one back and pushing it later. You will find find that your day starts to get longer and possibly your nights shorter but this will change once you drop the catnap.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 09, 2017, 12:26:46 pm
I imagine after a 3 hour nap he just wasn't tired enough for a 2nd nap. I would definately try and push his first A time out a bit and get a longer first nap with a view to cutting the 2nd one back and pushing it later. You will find find that your day starts to get longer and possibly your nights shorter but this will change once you drop the catnap.

You might be right. I'm going to play with this for a little longer and see. It has only been a couple of days.

I think there might be something wrong with him.

He sleep at 1050am today for nap 1 but let out a cry around 1130am. Then got up at 1150ish. He didn't want to sleep after that even though I held him. His head feels hot so maybe the molars are coming out?

Anyway, he was yawning all after that. I put him down with little resistence at around 245pm. He let out a cry after 30mins...this is new.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: Buntybear on May 09, 2017, 12:40:38 pm
It could be teeth if he is unsettled. Have you tried some painkillers to settle the pain and temp?
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 09, 2017, 16:07:02 pm
It could be teeth if he is unsettled. Have you tried some painkillers to settle the pain and temp?


No I haven't since he seems ok for the rest of the day. Does teething pain increase during sleep?

Again, he woke up around 4oopm (about an hr later) and didn't sleep afterwards. Hopefully, BT will be 730pm.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on May 09, 2017, 18:52:43 pm
No I haven't since he seems ok for the rest of the day. Does teething pain increase during sleep?
teething can certainly effect LOs during sleep when they appear fine the rest of the day:
- when awake and doing things they have more to distract them from the pain (just like adults, we do better when we are "doing something" but can feel more ill or more pain at night or when alone or no good distractions)
- laying down puts more pressure on the gums and they can feel like they are pounding with every heart beat which isn't felt when sitting or standing up
(a dental problem of my own a while back reminded me just how much the pain increases when you lie down)

You can try elevating the head end of the cot with a wedge (or pillow under the mattress) or cot blocks under the cot legs.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: Buntybear on May 09, 2017, 21:02:38 pm
agree with Creations. Olly would also get a raised temp and be more sleepy during teething but then have the NWs too x
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on May 11, 2017, 05:53:22 am
Sorry for the late reply. He's sick with a very high fever (39.5-8+). I'm doing whatever he needs to get rest and we'll try to get back on track later. Thanks for all your support. Knowing that I don't have to stress trying to fit all the A times in a day really helped me figure this out.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: Buntybear on May 11, 2017, 05:57:53 am
Oh no, hope he feels better soon xx
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on May 11, 2017, 10:38:40 am
Hope he is better soon x
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on June 12, 2017, 12:48:51 pm
Hi, I'm back again.

The sickness was really bad and we had to return to the hospital for shots daily and...I'm just glad it's over.

He slept well during the sickness but immediately afterwards he started refusing to sleep for BD and cried bloody murder until I gave up and nursed to sleep. The molars were/are coming in. Then the morning nap went the same way. So even now, more than a month later, we are back to square one; sleeping in my arms for naps and nursing to sleep for all sleep times.

HHHhhhhh..where do I start?
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on June 12, 2017, 20:56:04 pm
Oh I'm really sorry to hear he was so poorly - what a worry!
Good to hear he's over it now though :)

Is the nursing to sleep a new thing?  Did you intend to continue to BF beyond 12 months or were you hoping to stop now?
Is he eating solids okay, back to regular appetite since his illness or is he off food?
Sleeping okay over night once he's eventually gone down?

If you can post your current EAS times with notes about how you are settling, where LO is sleeping, mood etc I'll have a look.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on June 23, 2017, 09:05:28 am
Sorry for the delay.

Since STing, I stopped nursing to sleep so it's new as of about 1.5 months ago. The last time we spoke, I agreed to allow him to nap in my arms for the 30 min afternoon nap. I can hold him like that without nursing so that's what happened. Then he refused bedtime...then nap 1.

Right now, this is the routine

wu 7am
n1 10-12pm (I'm only able to do this after a short a time because of nursing/sleeping on me)
n2 3-4pm
bt start at 715 and has been getting harder and harder...sometimes he wont sleep until 8pm or 830pm

nw- anywhere from 1-2x...12/1am and/or 3/4am ...



other things:
-I need to continue nursing for medical reasons but on a st routine, I would never nurse to sleep except during nw. I only have a few months to go.
-he's getting molars on every side and not eating a lot of solids unless I distract and feed purees. some days, he will eat great at lunch and/or dinner
-hes very VERY clingy and cries a lot more than normal
-for a few nights recently he was actually sttn or at least until 5am. I think he likes the cold so I'm trying to keep it colder than I like
-even with sleeping on me, he still wakes up at the 1hr mark for naps. most times he will even stand and look around (when on his bed, he would wu and cry after 1hr then sleep in my arms)...1.5-2hr solid naps without waking up are rare for him. I just dont know what to do.
-before all this and the sickness, we moved the first nap up to 4hrs after wu. it still wasn't enough to get a solid 2hrs of sleep...but now that he's taking longer to sleep for bt, I'm wondering if he now needs more wake time before bed. I read that we should stick with the 2 nap schedule for as long as possible...do you think we should try 1 nap?

I feel like I no longer know when he really needs to sleep since ive been helping him a longer.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on June 23, 2017, 09:44:42 am
-I need to continue nursing for medical reasons but on a st routine, I would never nurse to sleep except during nw. I only have a few months to go.
I hope you didn't feel I was implying you should stop.  Many members like to continue BF for an extended period,it's fine. I was only looking for information.

On the subject of information, can I get a little more please?
n1 10-12pm (I'm only able to do this after a short a time because of nursing/sleeping on me)
This nap looks a bit too early  but I'm not sure what you mean that it needs to be after a short A time because of nursing/sleeping on you. Can you expand on that please?  Would it be possible to extend this A time now to the 4hrs(+) we were talking about previously?

n2 3-4pm
Is this nap 1hr or is it 30 mins in arms?

I think for your LOs age it is likely that you do ned to move towards the one longer nap and one CN.
At this point I would not increase the A time before BT as this could lead to OT which can show at NWs. That A time before BT comes after a CN not a long nap so it wouldn't be the place that I would increase. Rather I'd shift nap 1 later, have it long, shift nap 2 to where it needs to be to allow for a good A time before and after it so there is as little resistance to both the CN and BT...and be open minded about BT.  With the 7am WU you are getting now I wouldn't even try BT until 8pm to give 11hr night but it's when the naps are positioned during the day which can alter how well he sleeps.

do you think we should try 1 nap?
At this point it would be a huge leap to go to 1 nap.  LO needs to manage a 5hr+ A time before the nap and again after it.  Moving from a first A time of only 3hrs directly to 5hrs could be terribly difficult. Instead I would move that nap gradually later so that it is more of a smooth transitional phase and when the 2-1 actually comes it is more logical to do so looking at the routine. Hope that makes sense.

With 4.5hrs first A time for instance:
WU7
A 4.5
S 11.30 - 1.30
A 3
S 4.30 - 5.00
A 3
BT 8pm
night 11hr
Hopefully you can see here that with the first A time being less than 5hrs it is very hard to get through the rest of the day without another nap.  He'd have to stay awake the 4.5hr before nap 1 and then stay awake for something like 5hrs after the nap with a 6.30pm BT which then relies on a 12.5hr night.  But also I think you can see it is possible to move towards that longer first A time and still fit a CN in the day. There are also options to cap nap 1 at 1.5hr or to reduce the CN to 20 or 10 mins depending on nap resistance or BT resistance.
Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on June 23, 2017, 18:58:15 pm
No, no, I didn't take it that way. I wanted to continue until two years but I'm struggling and will only continue until it's no longer necessary.

What I meant with the short A times is that since he is sleeping on me and getting my help to settle down, I am able to pull off such short A times (except for BT now). It's not ideal but just what happened.

N2 is for 1hr.

Everything you said makes sense and I'm very happy to see a sample routine. Thank you! I was really scared about the CN but your timings look like something that would work for my LO.

I need to get some things out of the way but I will start this EAS next week and report back.

Do you think I should start following this schedule while he's still sleeping on me to get him used to it or should I ST again and follow the schedule at the same time?
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on June 23, 2017, 20:47:43 pm
I think as you had started to put him in the cot and sleep train now would be a good time to do that again.  Perhaps continue with the naps in arms for a day or so whilst you lengthen that first A, but I wouldn't linger on extending the A time or continuing the naps in arms, I do mean just a few days.  Moving from 3hr A time to 4.5 hr is a big jump, I'd suggest extending by 30 min day 1 (perhaps do this one in arms as it won't be long enough for a good settle) and another 30 min day 2 (perhaps get this one in the cot as it would now be 4hr but maybe stay there to help him as needed with a hand on or shush/pat).  Then I'd probably give him a few days on 4hrs before increasing again. When you increase further do it in 15 mins rather than 30.
It might go something like this:
day 1 in arms 3hr 30 A time
day 2 in cot 4hr A time, but help him as needed
day 3 as day 2
day 4 as day 2
day 5 in cot 4hr 15min A time, help as needed, should start to get easier
day 6 in cot 4hr 15
day 7 in cot 4hr 15 reassess now
day 8 possibly 4hr 30 if naps have not lengthened enough or if there is still nap resistance

Depending on how nap 1 goes you will need to judge for yourself each day what to do for nap 2.  Either a full 1hr nap or a 30min CN - base this on how long he slept for nap 1 and how long you need before BT.  You might like to continue nap 2 in arms for now whilst you get on track because it will be a bit easier to control that nap whilst the first nap is going to be a bit more unpredictable at this early stage.

Please do remember the sample routine is only a guide. It may work for you LO but something a little different might be more suitable.

hope this helps
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 09, 2017, 18:10:03 pm
Sorry for the delay again. I didn't want to write until I started. I saw your last post on the same day and wanted to start the next day. He woke up with an extremely high fever again that night! After a couple of days he started getting better then we both got a bad cold. Two weeks later and    here we are...

So today I did everything you suggested for day 1. I made a mistake by putting him down after 3hrs for BT since maybe 3.5hrs would have been better... but even when crying he was yawning immediately when I put him down. So maybe it was enough A time?

He cried hard but I didn't know if it was a distressed cry. He hasn't cried to sleep for a long time since I went back to nursing to sleep. It seemed hard but after a while he would stop, then continue after a second. At one point he even babbled mamamamama. Mybe I should have let this go on? I was afraid it would be CIO.

I was nervous so I tried patting. He continued without missing a beat. Shhing. Nothing. Talking to him. Nothing. So I let him cry a bit more but got nervous it wasn't good for him. I even tried letting him hold my hand after putting a hand on his back didn't work (he would lift his butt and move side to side). I started singing familiar sings and he calmed down a bit but started after less than 10s. This went on and off. He crying was the kind where if you stop, you have to catch your breathe and stutter. Is that a distress cry?

I tried different songs until I found one he would stay quiet with. I think I do that more for me then him since I just cant handle continuous crying. I even found myself rocking myself as I sang while sitting next to the bed.

Anyway, it lasted for about 40mins.

WU 640
N1 1015
N2 315
BT 720
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 09, 2017, 19:02:03 pm
If you feel he would calm down faster with a pick up you can do that, you can calm him in arms and put him down when calm and keep a hand on him, singing too if you like.  It does sound like he is crying hard (and if mine was I know I would need to pick up and cuddle but not all babies are the same so you judge this based on knowing your LO and knowing yourself) it is important to remember that whilst you are with him it is not CIO. He *knows* you are there this means he knows he is not in danger, he knows he has not been abandoned. It is very different when a child is left to cry alone, they do not know you will return, they do not know they are safe.
For you in particular (whether you choose to pick up because it helps him or not to because he doesn't like it) you might try some ear plugs, they will dull the sound but you will still hear him and you are still there with him, it can help to reduce the anxiety.  Or ear phones with some favourite or calming music for you, again it just dulls the sound it is not abandoning your child, you are still with him.  Parents do not need to join their baby in their upset, they need to support them - once I got my head around this I found I was able to find a touch of emotional distance, I was still there for my DS without getting upset.
Hope this helps - sounds like you are very caring and actually 40 mins is not as long as day 1 for many LOs.  Well done :)
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 10, 2017, 06:14:02 am
Thanks for your kind words. I hopeful things will get easier.

I dont know if I mentioned it, but I did a PU once when I felt it was hard crying. He just held me so I wouldn't put him back down but was moving around (not putting his head on my shoulder or anything)...as if he wanted to go back to the old way. I felt that he wouldn't calm down with me holding him so I PD'd and I think the crying got harder. I cant remember. That's when I started singing.

Anyway, Ive been through this rodeo before and know it's all about patience, consistency and not giving in.

I'll update with how things go with naps and BT today. Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...lol
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 10, 2017, 06:19:09 am
Oh, I forgot. I meant that every time I leave him to cry a bit, I feel like it's bad for him since he doesn't know I'm there if Im not physically touching him or saying something.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 10, 2017, 09:39:00 am
I think he is 13 or 14 months old now, yes?  I think he knows you are there, unless you are purposely hiding in which case I would make your presence clear.  if you are near his bed and have been talking or singing and have had a hand on him I think he knows you are there even if you stop singing. he can always open his eyes and see you - if he *needs* mummy he will certainly have a look for you.  I used to tell mine very clearly when I was leaving the room "I'm going now so you can sleep properly, call if you need me" even through the tricky phases when I had to stay until he was fully asleep, I felt he could hear me in his sleep and there would be no surprise when he woke and I wasn't there. I think Tracy used a similar phrase so that the LOs she trained knew the care-giver was leaving the room. No surprises.

The song is fine if it is helping.  You might find though that introducing a key phrase helps you both. For both of you it is a mantra like sound repeated and repeated which brings calm. It is supposed to be a single phrase "it's okay, go to sleep" kind of thing but I used several phrases which worked for us.  It can also be reduced if/when needed and is very useful to use from outside the room when LO is ready for verbal reassurance from a distance (not yet I don't think from the sounds of it).

I think you are likely to see less resistance and upset as this first A time increases so keep up the support and keep moving that nap later, we need to see it getting to 4hr+ really.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 11, 2017, 09:35:15 am
I try o keep the room really dark so he doesn't see me..but youre right. if he wanted me, he could easily sit or stand up. Singing is helping but I really do want to just have a phrase and keep quiet as he settles himself. Maybe that's the goal...hes still crying so singing calms him. If I stop, he cries again. Can it become a prop?

Also hes waking u after 1hr-1.5hr from nap 1 still tired and falls asleep on me even if I'm talking to him, touching, tickling, joking with him etc. Poor guy wont even open his eyes since hes so tired. I try to stop him since I want him to learn to sleep at nap/bed time not on me. Am I right?

He did the same in the morning. he has this new habit now of waking up at around 5am and wanting to stay in my arms and resisting the bed.

Todays nap1 was only 1hr so I think I'm going to move u to 415 a time now. I think he can do it.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 11, 2017, 12:12:06 pm
Can you pop in around 55 min and see if he needs help to transition and stay asleep at the hour mark?  Sometimes that can help for a few days.

You should be able to reduce the singing, especially once he is sleeping a bit better.  Or maybe introduce a CD?
When mine was a baby I sang one song for WD.  If he was very agitated I repeated but if he was desperate to get into bed he would put his hand on my mouth to shut me up so I'd put him down!  At some point during a tricky phase (I think it was during the 1-0 nap drop) I had to do some major APOP, problem was my DS wouldn't be APed so it was very very hard.  Anyway, I would do singing and dancing with a CD on downstairs before taking him up and continuing upstairs with him almost asleep on me. Eventually this moved on to just putting the CD on upstairs in his room and leaving it to play to the end as he fell asleep in his bed.  If you are not involved it is not considered a prop.  Singing can be reduced and weaned like a key phrase I would think, a CD is just turned on and left.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 13, 2017, 08:47:16 am
He's 14 months now.

Thanks for the idea...I might just record my voice an play it for the first part of his sleep.

I increased the A time by 10mins and was going to wait for the 55 mark to help him sleep but he woke up at 40mins-ish. Today I increased it by 15mins and we'll see how that goes. I'll try to get there by the 35 mark in case he wakes up early. I think this early waking is normal since he did the same when I first started STing. Hopefully it wont last long.

Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 13, 2017, 09:11:33 am
Good idea to record your voice :)

Good luck for today.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 14, 2017, 09:11:25 am
yesterday n1 was for 1hr After about a 4hr15min a time. today was the same

I have a feeling my lo just cant transition on his own. even in my arms he stirs at the 1hr mark...he has only done 1.5hrs-2hrs by himself only a handful of times in his life.

anyway, here are some things ive been doing that might have made a difference...

bc of ot he always want to sleep in even after sleeping from 8-530/6, waking to nurse then falling back to sleep. so the day usually starts from 715-720am. I adjust nap times accordingly (so a wu of 720=nap at 1120 etc). I dont know if this changes anything. I just mention this since we arent consistent with the schedule.

also, after a couple days of leaving him to sleep and wake up on his own, I decided to allow him to sleep in my arms after n1 so that he doesn't get too OT'd from all this. He was waking up super tired from all naps and in the morning. there were times he even wanted to sleep in a lot and I had no choice but to allow it (nothing I did woke him up).

I made a mistake yesterday. he woke up after an hour from n1 and I allowed him to sleep in my arms. I didn't mean to but he slept from about 2hrs20mins and I had to wake him up even though he wasn't done. he slept again at 510-520 (I was trying since 445). BT was at 8pm without too much resistance. BUT he woke up at 6am today and wouldn't fall back asleep as usual.

I dont know if I'm right to allow him to sleep in my arms after n1 to avoid OT. he IS tired and needs to sleep for at least 1.5-2+ hrs. he just doesn't seem to by himself for naps...

Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 14, 2017, 09:36:53 am
I have read that sleep cycles increase in length from 6-12 until LO is on a cycle length closer to that of an adult, it may be that your LO has a 1hr sleep cycle length and is waking at the end of it.
Have you tried W2S to see him through the transition at 1hr?  This is a method often used for sleep training.  I know I suggested it before but don't remember if you had any success with it.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0


I made a mistake yesterday. he woke up after an hour from n1 and I allowed him to sleep in my arms. I didn't mean to but he slept from about 2hrs20mins and I had to wake him up even though he wasn't done. he slept again at 510-520 (I was trying since 445). BT was at 8pm without too much resistance. BUT he woke up at 6am today and wouldn't fall back asleep as usual.
This sounds like he was better rested. I think it may be a good idea to let him have a very long first nap and then a CN later in the day - what do you think?  BT looked easy and although 8-6 is only 10 hr night he got a great length nap even if it was half in cot and half in arms.  If you could get that nap all in the cot you'd be sorted!

I adjust nap times accordingly (so a wu of 720=nap at 1120 etc). I dont know if this changes anything. I just mention this since we aren't consistent with the schedule.
Hmm..honestly I'm not sure, my mind has gone a blank,. Often we say it's better to go for set times when LO is over 12 months and on 1 nap but your LO is still on 2 naps so maybe working the A times and adjusting each day is the better approach for now.
I'll just go and ask someone about that.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 14, 2017, 17:22:43 pm
Thanks for all your support.

Honestly, I'm all for a long n1 and a cN later on...if he would just sleep in his bed the entire time!

I wanted to sleep if he could transition himself...but since it doesn't seem like it, I might have to w2s. I'll start tomorrow if things go well after our outing.



Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 16, 2017, 09:18:58 am
yesterday we were out from 8-1115am. I put him down for nap1 at 1130..wu was at 7am. I was sure he'd extend his sleep on his own since he was already falling asleep...nope. just slept for an hour. then I allowed 30mins in my arms.

so I was disheartened and really thought of giving up. when I first started sting, I was told to extend the a times...the I tried w2s and it didn't work. I felt like I should just backtrack and get him to sleep at 330 a times for both naps. then a a time of 3hr before bt so he gets 11.5 hours instead. plus I felt that it would be better since hed sleep for 1hr for both naps in his cot...

well, I stupidly put him down at 11am today (wu 7am) but he cried and learned that if he stood up, he could see me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so I left and came back in as if it was wake time. I put him down again around 1120 but he just cried hard and kept standing up. I kept trying to calm him and pd. I even pu to calm but he didn't. now hes asleep in my arms, taking stuttering deep breaths as he falls asleep.

I messed up. I just hope the standing doesn't continue...
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 16, 2017, 17:54:37 pm
Oh well, tomorrow is another day.

I would go for 4hr 15 or 4hr 30 on the first A time tbh. W2S is only going to work if the A time is long enough and LO is tired enough to make that transition with help, then after a few days without help.

I would try something like:
WU 7
A 4hr 30
S 11.30 - 1.00 (1.5hr)
A 3hr 30 - 4hr (if he will accept nap at 3hr 30 do that, if not make it 4hr)
S 4.30 - 5 or 5 - 5.30
A 3hr - 4hr (again trying for 3hr 30 if he will accept it)
BT 8pm or 8.30pm (if he wakes from nap 2 at 5.30 and won't go to sleep again until 4hr A time it will be a later BT more like 9.30pm but really I don't think this would happen, if it did we can reassess to get it earlier).

What do you think?
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 24, 2017, 04:29:32 am
this is what I have been aiming for but I didn't know I was to let him sleep in his bed for n2 since n1 didn't extend yet

I'm trying to bw consistent but hes waking up twice...between 2.30-4 then sleeps after 30-1hr. something longer. then again from 545-620 and rfuses to be placed in bed even though he clearly wants to sleep. hes sleping on me now.

I tried w2s once and it didn't work. I keep staying awake to try even though I needthe sleep but he keeps waking up at unpredictable times before I can do so.

I have some questions if youd be so kind...

1. for the 6am waking, what should I do. I tried nursing then when he wakes after I put him down. I tried to pat but he keeps moving side to side crying. the time is so close to wu, I feel like my effort is fruitless even when he does finally sleep in his bed...by this time I'm so exhausted I just dont car and he sleeps until 8 sometimes.

2.if I try putting him in his bed for nap two or bt but 3/3.5hr isn't enough and he just cries...what do I do? continue or take him out?

I for got the rest
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 24, 2017, 09:38:56 am
sorry for another message today

n1 was/is a disaster. I felt like did everything right...

yesterday

up at 609am...nursed then slept. tried to transfer to bed but resisted  but was sleepy. at 630 I gave up so this was also wake up
1045~ n1...up in less than hour and napped in arms until 115...I woke him up
425-5pm n2
bt8pm...815?
nw at 230am,,,nursed and back to sleep around 3am


up at 6am today...same as yesterday but I really wanted to get him used  to a 7am wakeup so I allowed him to sleep on me after trying to get him back on his bed.
woke him up ay 7am
1130...tried to winddown 5-10mins before...but him down and after like 20secs of silence he started crying. I sang...crying got harder and harder...kept trying different songs...nothing. crying hard. I knew pu and patting wouldn't work so I kept singing but he woukd stand to look for me. currently napping in arms breathing hard

I dont know what happened and I honestly dont know what to do. nothing I do works with him when he cries hard except to return to the old way.

do I just keep singing even if hes crying hard? since he knows I'm there...

do I pu or pat even though he continues or cries harder or will stand if he sees me by the bed?

I have no confidence in what I'm doing.

Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 25, 2017, 17:55:57 pm
It sounds like your LO probably needs to move to 1 nap.  This transitional period you are going through can last some time and is not so easy for some.
You and your LO might both prefer it if you moved to one nap in one step and just go for it - what do you think?
It would mean you don't have to try for nap 2 any more which could be a relief??

If you decided to go for it the nap would need to come at about 5hr A time so you could start the day at 6am or when he wakes and nap at 11 for 2hrs or more (this nap could then be moved gradually to 11.30 to encourage a later WU and balance the day a bit more).  You'd then look for BT around 5 or 6pm depending on how long he napped and what his level of tiredness is.
6am start to the day probably doesn't sound great just now but it means you can just get on with it instead of putting in huge effort to resettle and then end up co-sleeping which causes other difficulties.

If though you feel he can't cope with just one nap yet then I think you do need to reduce nap 2.  Maybe down to just 10 mins in arms so that you don't get as much resistance?

Sorry you are feeling low in confidence, lots of us feel like that from time to time. Like I say, this is not an easy transitional period for lots of people.  Some do find it easier to just go for it and drop to one nap, almost set the nap time and do earlier BT.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on July 26, 2017, 08:36:31 am
Thank you for your reply and suggestions.

I actually edited the last response but it got erase.

I basically said that I feel like my problems are due to inconsistency from me. I started putting on an alarm clock at 7am to wake us both (it's not too loud and is under my pillow). I also adjusted the A/c so it's much mor cooler and I think that's helping him. I also tried gently holding him down since he will stand immediately and that's working with a song. I tried stoping early but he will cry for me to continue...so I need to work on phasing that out. The rcording didn't work since he cries an I have to change to something else.

I want to give this one more shot...a real shot. If not, ill move to one nap like you said. With distraction, it might work but I still feel he needs two.

I try this for a week or so and see.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on July 27, 2017, 18:46:58 pm
OK - with any change you need to feel comfortable with it and you know him best :)
Hope you have a good week.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 03, 2017, 09:30:49 am
Update:

So I did try and it was going ok for a couple of days. He still only slept for 1hr for nap one. He started resisting nap2 again on his bed and since it was only 30 mins I let him sleep in my arms.

However, I dont know why, but I decided to follow his cues more (something I was told not to do when I first started STing since 'they are unreliable at this age"). I realized that he ws still getting cranky at the 3-3.5hr make for nap1 and was begging me for sleep (I would always distract him and totally forgot how to read his cues).

I decided to follow his cues and even though he is still sleeping in my arms for the second hour of nap1 and for the 30mins of nap 2, it seems that he is more restful and he is more consistent in his sleep.

Of course, please tell me if this is a disastrous move. ..

If I continue the arm sleeping, will I know when he's ready for 1 nap?

Will this stop him from learning to sleep properly?

I hate that I always have to come back to this...but it's the only way I cam think of to keep my sanity right now.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 03, 2017, 18:38:57 pm
Honestly it would make me insane to have to have my LO sleep in my arms every day but if you're happy with it and if it actually helps with your sanity then it's your choice :)

Yes of course it is likely to effect him learning to sleep in his cot, sleeping in arms is not independent sleep.  When it comes to the point when you no longer want him napping in arms it will be time to sleep train again.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 08, 2017, 08:51:36 am
It's more like the lesser of the two evils. it doesn't bother me. The way I understood it, this is a difficult stage where they need longer a times but also refuse a nap...which means a lot of OT. I thought I was being smart to wait it out instead of fighting it trying to make him sleep during this time. I was afraid that if I didn't allow for him to nap in my arms for the second hr of n1, then giving him a long a time so he could nap again for only 30 mins would cause more problems...

7am wu
n1 1130-1230
n2 430-500pm
8pm bt

so it would only be a 1.5hr nap total and a ~10hr night (minus the time it takes for him to settle, early wakings, night wakings)

I also really dont know how to go about the fact that my LO cant nap for more than 1 hr at a time. not even 4.30 hrs a time extended his naps...

...but maybe the one nap is exactly what he needs to finally regulate his sleep?

I guess I could try for a week and if it doesn't work, I could always go back to two naps.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 08, 2017, 09:11:46 am
I also really dont know how to go about the fact that my LO cant nap for more than 1 hr at a time.
I might be understanding you wrongly here but it seems that LO only ever sleeps a longer nap if the second half is in arms - so that is all you can expect if that is what he has been taught.  To sleep longer in the cot he probably needs sleep training to get there.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 09, 2017, 09:12:12 am
Oops! I meant it DOES bother me. I wouldn't be here if it didn't.

I get what you mean. So what do you suggest?

Should I try moving to 1 nap and just let him sleep for however long he can in his bed even if it's only for 1 hour total?

For example,
7am WU
12pm n1 (most likely only for 1 hr)
6pm BT?

This will cause a lot of OT, NWs and resistance at BT but I can be patient if it's just for a few days as he adjusts.

Also, what do you mean by sleep training again?

w2s? I can try that again, but it didn't work before. He stirs, then sleeps. Then wakes up exactly when he normally does (after 1 hr). One thing that worked is if I put a hand on his back before he wakes at the hour mark and gently hold him down. I would have to be in there 10mins before to catch the wake up and wait at least 15-20mins holding him down to make sure he stays and transitions. But I feel that I'm just helping him and he doesn't learn to transition himself.


Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 09, 2017, 18:12:20 pm
I would sleep train nap 1 - meaning teach him he is to sleep in teh cot for a full nap. The only way to do this is to stop holding him for the additional hour.  yes W2S is one method that teaches LO to stay asleep for longer (in their cot, not in arms) and what you describe here:
I put a hand on his back before he wakes at the hour mark and gently hold him down. I would have to be in there 10mins before to catch the wake up and wait at least 15-20mins holding him down to make sure he stays and transitions
is exactly the way the W2S method works (there are two methods this is the one I always advise). yes it takes time but it does teach Lo to stay asleep in their cot.  I would give it a proper go, 3 days on 1 day off see what happens, if he wakes resettle then do another cycle 3 days on 1 day off see what happens, repeat.

If you feel W2S doesn't work you resettle at the 1hr WU. This means sooth him with your usual method (shush/pat or a rub, or stroke, a firm hand, key phrase etc) and you keep going until he sleeps or until nap time is over (or for 45 mins).  If you need to pick up you do so to calm him down but you don't let him sleep in arms you make sure you get him down.
Sleep training takes time and effort, it isn't going to magically happen and he isn't likely to decide to suddenly do it himself.  He will likely get OT during the training phase but that's okay.

I would continue to hold in arms for nap 2 but not let that nap be more than 30 mins because he mustn't be allowed to make up his lost sleep from nap 1 if he won't resettle by getting a longer nap 2 (if you want nap 2 longer then I'd suggest it not be in arms as you end up stuck again).

I would not move to one nap yet as it doesn't sound like he can handle the A time length needed.
This will cause a lot of OT, NWs and resistance at BT but I can be patient if it's just for a few days as he adjusts.
Honestly it is unlikely to be only a few days.  Mine was as ready as he could be for the move ot one nap (ie always refused nap 2 and did super long morning A time), he was also a fully independent sleeper with a solid 2hr first nap and I had a great struggle and a lot of hard work to get him through the 2-1.  His 2hr nap turned into 20 min OT screaming WUs and I basically had to grit my teeth and force him to sleep no matter how long it took and how exhausting it was.  It was certainly more than a few days.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 10, 2017, 14:14:59 pm
wow...I guess I should expect the worst, then.

ill do that starting next week to get a good 5 full days of training before the weekend interruptions.

I have a few questions

1. if he doesn't go back to sleep after the 1hr, should I move n2 and bt earlier? ...or would it then be like this
7amwu
n1 1130-1230
n2 430-500pm (try in cot? or not to risk it since if he starts sleeping well for n1, ill have to go back to arm sleeping. besides the ot from n1 might make things difficult)
8pm bt (hes usually asleep by 815-30 but theres no resistance as long as I sing)

or for days with 1hr n1,

7am wu
1130-1230 n1
330-4pm or 4pm-430 n2
7 or 730bt

2. you mentioned keeping n2 at 30mins, should bt be kept at 8pm?
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 10, 2017, 15:16:02 pm
For now I would leave the nap times and BT where they are which means he will end up with a longer A time between nap 1 and 2 if he won't resettle on nap 1.  Going with a bit less sleep for a few days (if you can't resettle) isn't going to harm him, it will help him get into the routine and sleep in his cot (certainly nap 1 even if nap 2 is still APed in arms).  basically the only time you are going to let him "catch up" is at that nap time when he is supposed to sleep.
You might even be able to move nap 1 a touch later to encourage that nap to be better - but I'd still keep nap 2 and BT the same for now. Moving lots of things in one go makes it harder to see what's changed and why.  That is, if you feel okay with this.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 14, 2017, 10:45:32 am
what does APed mean?

day#1

wu7~
(woke at 6something as usual for a feed. 627ish but was asleep feeding. put him back down for about 10-15mins then woke him up. he really does need an earlier bt since he always wants to sleep in)

n1: put down at 1125ish and I started singing (he complains immediately if I dont. I usually stop to see if hes asleep and he will complain if I stop if hes still awake)
-left at 1134 and checked time
-came back for w2s at around 24. stirred and resettled. then I kept a heavy hand on him. I  didn't check the time but he woke up at the usual time and started to cry since he couldn't get up due to my hand
-he wiggled but didn't fight much so I kept it there.
-crying increased so I left and hid in case he stood up. started singing since that's what we do
-1245 crying got harder so I said time for sleep. kept singing
-crying harder. debated if I should pu since I know it wouldn't work but cries were from distress/sobbing/coughing/catching breath...
-put hand on back. no change. sang along with that. no change.
-1pm pu and cried and pushed me away. didn't want to calm down. sang new song until his breathing stabilized
-pd but cried harder.hid and sang...
-decided 45min was enough. turned on lights

my thoughts
-of course I'm doubting if this is right. telling myself to just let him sleep for his hour and instead make bt earlier.
-hoping tomorrow is easier on him but I'm doubting that
-I also feel my method of helping him settle isn't good...maybe too intrusive
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 14, 2017, 17:59:46 pm
AP = accidental parenting. sometimes we say APOP accidental parenting on purpose, basically all the stuff we *shouldn't* do but might opt to do on purpose because we know LO needs the sleep or because we have a plan to drop a nap etc.

If he's crying hard I would pick up - you just don't let him fall to sleep in your arms, you can calm him in arms and put down again and repeat this as many times as needed.  Each time you put down use your key phrase and a firm hand on him, rub or jiggle if needed but help him to stay calm and if needed keep a hand on all the way to sleep and beyond.  If he likes the singing then do it during the W2S when you are helping him transition, you can wean it later, at this point anything to help him sleep longer in the cot is helpful.
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: airam on August 15, 2017, 05:08:43 am
I'm so sorry to waste your time. I'm dealing with a lot and of that is clinical depression. plus the fact that i have no family or friends where i am and have had no help so far. yesterday was brutal with 5+ nws. i think i will push back the nap to 1030am and either let him sleep for an hour n1 and then try n2 in his bed (and maybe he will extend that nap as he has done in the past) or just carry on with allow him to sleep in my arms until a miracle happens. i think this is the best option for my situation atm. i am thankful for you all for helping me to teach him to sleep in his bed and not in my arms for all naps! at least we made some progress. i really wanted to teach him before he learned to climb out or some other obstacle but...that's life.

ill probably be back when I'm more stable and can handle things better instead of flip-flopping so frequently.

thank you so much!
Title: Re: minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help
Post by: creations on August 15, 2017, 06:34:29 am
Please don't think that you have wasted my time and there is no need to apologise.

Honey - do you have some support for your depression?
Do you have a current thread here to gain some support?

Many many hugs xx