BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: annesmama on May 09, 2017, 18:00:59 pm
-
Hi all, I'm a first-time mom trying to teach my baby to sleep on her own.
ISSUE#1: She still needs help (bouncing or rocking) to fall asleep.
ISSUE#2: On a given day, she'll only do 1 long nap on her own - the rest she wakes up around 40 minutes or an hour tops.
ISSUE#3: Even though she'll start her day at 7-8am, she won't fall asleep for bedtime until 10pm-midnight!
I suspect issues 2 & 3 are related to her needing help to go to sleep.
About us:
We are EBF so I can't count ounces or anything, but she is growing well, around 55th percentile for weight. We do Elimination Communication, so we are already doing the extra "E" (eliminate) after eating. We cosleep (sidecar crib) at night, but all her naps are in her crib by herself.
My baby is textbook/spirited. She just turned 3 months old yesterday, so I am never sure whether to go by the 0-3mo or 3-6mo recommendations! She is very engaging, vocal, and active while awake, constantly kicking and cooing. She likes looking at things-- herself in the mirror, toys/objects during tummy time, looks all around when we go for walks. Some babies go to sleep when you walk them, I hear, but not this one. :)
ISSUE#1: She still needs help (bouncing or rocking) to fall asleep.
Our current nap routine is:
1. Go potty (we're doing early toilet training)
2. Go to the bedroom and turn on white noise
3. Put on pajama pants (she wears a cloth diaper sans cover at home)
4. Swaddle
5. Bounce/rock and sing 2-3 songs
6. Lay down in crib once she closes her eyes. She usually opens them during the move.
7. (Sometimes) Hand on chest if needed to help her close her eyes again.
Usually this works and I can then leave the room. If she's OT she might wake at 10/20mins, but otherwise she doesn't wake until the transition.
Step 5 (bouncing/singing) is the one I want to get rid of, of course. In the mornings I might only need 1 song. In the evenings I might need 5 or 6. Basically, I bounce on the yoga ball and sing while she stares at the fan or into space; then when she closes her eyes, I'll move her to the crib. Lately I've started moving her if she looks vacant enough, even before she closes her eyes, and she'll often close them on the way over. There was one miraculous day when her eyes started closing even before bouncing and I skipped that bit and sang the song while she lay in her crib.
If I try to lay her down without bouncing her to drowsiness, she either plays or cries... she does *not* sleep! I really don't want to leave her to cry in the crib, and shush-pat doesn't seem to do anything for her. She's too young for PU/PD, I think? Any other ideas?
ISSUE#2: On a given day, she'll only do 1 long nap on her own - the rest she wakes up around 40 minutes or an hour tops.
It's interesting to me that she does sometimes do long naps (1.5-2 hours) on her own. Usually the first nap of the day, sometimes the second. There was one day she napped almost 4 hours! But more typically, she wakes up at 40 minutes. Sometimes if I go in and feed or rock her, I can get her back to sleep, but sometimes not. If she's already alert and blinking/looking around by the time I get there, it's usually not going to work. Is this developmental? Is she just a short napper? But why does she have the one long nap, then?
ISSUE#3: Even though she'll start her day at 7-8am, she won't fall asleep for bedtime until 10pm-midnight!
This one is driving me nuts. *I* get tired earlier in the evenings than she does! When she goes to sleep around 7, it alway turns out to be a nap -- she wakes up after 45 minutes to an hour. Then we'll try again around 9pm, and half the time *that* turns out to be a nap too. D: Last night was the best ever -- got her to sleep at 9:45pm.
Here was our EASY yesterday:
WAKE 7:45am
E 8a
E(pre-nap snack) 8:45a
S 9:00-9:45/9:50-10:45 (had to feed+bounce to extend)
E 10:45
S 11:45-12:45 (couldn't extend)
E 12:55
S 1:45-2:45 (couldn't extend)
E 2:45
S 3:55-4:35 (couldn't extend)
E 4:35
E(top off since I was going out) 6:15
S 6:50-7:20 (not sure what happened - DH said she woke up and was crying for a long time)
E 7:50 (when I got home)
SLEEP 9:45 for the night! Her night sleep is good enough for me -- she wakes a couple of times for a feed and goes right back to sleep. (I know BW suggests cutting night feeds, but we are not planning to do that, since it's generally not good for breastfeeding supply.)
-
Hi :)
Looks to me like you're getting lots of undertired naps. I'm going to suggest that is most likely due to short A times. At this age, average A times are 1:30 and that's actually pretty consistent at this age and average becomes a bigger range as babies grow older. With some spirited babies, A times can be higher than average even at 3 months but in your case, perhaps start with 1:30 from wakeup to back to sleep and see how you go :)
Getting the routine more suitable for her may fix your perception of need for sleep training. I think you're working so hard to get her to sleep because she's not tired. I think once you get your A times up, she may go to bed better for the night as well.
-
Ooh, hm. I'll give 1.5 hrs a go today and tomorrow and report back...
I usually start winding down at 1hr because she starts getting a bit fussy. Her A time is mostly blanket play -- blanket in front of the window, blanket in front of a mirror, blanket with a few toys/pictures to look at in tummy time. She usually does just one of these things per A period. I don't *think* that should be overstimulating and making her fussy? I'm always worried that I'll "miss the window" so I take her in as soon as she gets cranky, but maybe I should just try a different activity?
-
She could be bored, wanting more stimulation. Mine would've been very noisy about it if he got one activity per A time! Don't worry too much about OT, much easier to resettle OT naps than UT which is what you're getting right now :)
maybe I should just try a different activity?
Spot on!
-
Hmm okay. So I have been trying to do longer A times with her the past couple days. The thing is, there's this really clear shift in her mood around the 1hr mark. Before that, she's an angel baby, super smiley and happy, plays independently, I just have to move her around and/or change her diaper. After 1hr, she starts to get fussy when laying down - if I pick her up and play with her, read to her, walk around with her, etc, she'll be okay for another half hour or so. Whether her A time is 1hr or 1hr30, she cries when I lay her down to swaddle; she stops crying once I pick her up again.
The reason I started moving toward the short A times was that mood change - I thought it meant she was tired? Does it not? I do think she falls asleep faster with the 1hr30 A time, but she doesn't sleep longer - still only an hour or less. :\
EASY from yesterday:
WAKE 8:20
S 9:45-10:15 / 10:30-10:45
E 10:45
S 11:50-12:50 (I wasn't sure when to count the beginning of "A", she didn't really sleep well for the resettling)
E 1:00
E 2:00
S 2:20-3:20
E 3:35
S 5:05-5:50
E 6:00
S 7:30-7:50
E 8:30
E 9:30
S 10pm
NW 11pm
NW 3:30a
WAKE 6:30a (*sadface* - I usually try to treat this as a NW, but she wasn't having it)
Today her first nap was short too, 8:00-9:00, but at least she woke happy and she's playing happily now. :\
Does she need an even longer A time?
But then why does she get fussy and need to be held for the second half?
-
After 1hr, she starts to get fussy when laying down - if I pick her up and play with her, read to her, walk around with her, etc, she'll be okay for another half hour or so. Whether her A time is 1hr or 1hr30, she cries when I lay her down to swaddle; she stops crying once I pick her up again.
All very normal with a spirited baby, I'm afraid. They just crave that stimulation.
I would give her another 10-15mins more A time and see how that goes.
What are you doing when she's treating BT as a nap? It can help to spend some of the first A time outside so she's getting some sun to help her body clock sort out day from night. It can also help to keep lights low and maybe just hold your hand on her and sing to her rather than getting her back up. That's pretty classic OT at BT which can happen just by having short naps all day. It sounds counterintuitive but pushing the A times in the day will help with the night.
-
OK, today we tried pushing A times to 1:40. On the plus side, she goes to sleep very quickly. On the minus side, she gets pretty fussy during wind down. Naps are still so-so:
WAKE 6:30am
E 6:30
E 7:00
S 8:00-9:00
E 9:25
E 10:30
S 10:40-11:40
E 11:55
S 1:20-2:20 (OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)
S 2:30-3:30 (But on the plus side, 2 hours total napping yay)
E 3:40
S 5:05-5:50 (45m)
E 5:50
E 7:00
S 7:30-8:15 (45m)
This is typical... we don't even do the bedtime routine before the 7pm nap any more.
Usually, she wakes up fussing. We first try to put a hand on her and shush, but usually that doesn't do anything. Then we'll try to hold and rock her on our bed next to the crib (it is sidecar'd, so it's not a huge move). If no go, I'll feed her. Generally after a feed she is in a good mood, smiley and trying to sit up. So we give up and try again after the next A time. On the plus side (knock wood), she's gone down for real sleep by 10pm for the past few days, which is a big improvement over midnight!
Today I didn't get a chance to take a walk for the first A time, but I did it a few days ago. I will try to do it more consistently.
I've ordered a couple of Zipadee-zips... she still startles and I don't think she'll be able to sleep without something swaddle-ish!
-
On the plus side, she goes to sleep very quickly.
That's a good sign you've got a more appropriate A time.
On the minus side, she gets pretty fussy during wind down
This can be for many reasons - some spirited babes just don't want to leave the action. Mine never did a winddown once I figured that out. Just put him straight down and he'd go to sleep.
Some babies don't do well with transitions - mine liked to pring something with him from one activity to another to help bridge the transition. As a result, he often took a spoon with him to bed/to the park, etc.
A lot of babies build associations very quickly - even just going to her bedroom when it has been a place she didn't like going to (when she wasn't tired) can still make her a bit fussy.
(OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)
This is fine provided she got put down on her back and rolled herself. Definitely time to get her out of the swaddle though. FWIW, my son slept so much better once he could roll onto his tummy - he didn't wake himself with his reflexes any more :)
S 1:20-2:20 (OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)S 2:30-3:30 (But on the plus side, 2 hours total napping yay)
This suggests to me that a slight push to 1:45/1:50 may get her sleeping longer on her own. These 1hr naps suggest she is still UT but is getting through the 45min mark on her own which is great - means she can transition from one sleep cycle to the next independently. This 2hr nap albeit with resettling is a good sign she will nap longer given the right routine. She's done that off the back of 2 short naps and 2 reasonable A times. You could stick with 1:40 for another day or two and see if her naps lengthen further if you want to. I'd probably hedge my bets and go to 1:45/1:50 and stick there for a few days because chances are that's where she'll be for the next week or two then increase again. Tweaking a routine and increasing A time gradually every couple of weeks as required will make this whole process much easier :) That way you mirror her gradual development with a gradual change in routine rather than trying to do it stepwise which gives her more to adjust to in one go.
It sounds like she really associates feeds with time to get up - that's great in some respects - she's got that bit of predictability down pat, makes feeding to sleep more tricky though!
Pushing that first A time may help with getting her to sleep earlier in the evening. You can try bringing BT earlier by 30mins every few days if you want to.
What's the BT routine? Does it help her settle or is it as per recommendation somewhere? Sometimes a WD/BT routine can hinder efforts to get a child to sleep. For instance, I read books to DS before bed because of those recommendations. He was so excited and overstimulated by books that it was completely counterproductive and actually, we had to change to singing for BT WD. We still read books - just straight after feeds rather than just before sleep.
-
THANK YOU! Things are definitely improving. We got one long nap yesterday and shush-pat has actually worked -- TWICE!
FWIW, my son slept so much better once he could roll onto his tummy - he didn't wake himself with his reflexes any more :)
Haha... I hope she learns that soon! Right now she sometimes stays on her back and sometimes rolls to her side. Then she often tries to go for her tummy, but if she makes it, she wakes herself up and starts fussing. She doesn't seem to realize she can just lay her head down and go to sleep :)
A lot of babies build associations very quickly - even just going to her bedroom when it has been a place she didn't like going to (when she wasn't tired) can still make her a bit fussy.
Yes, I suspect it's a combination of this, and just adjusting to the new A time. If you had told me a week ago that she could do 1:50 A times, I wouldn't have believed you based on how fussy she got at 1hr. But she can!
Tweaking a routine and increasing A time gradually every couple of weeks as required will make this whole process much easier :) That way you mirror her gradual development with a gradual change in routine rather than trying to do it stepwise which gives her more to adjust to in one go.
Makes sense! Definitely planning to do that going forward.
What's the BT routine? Does it help her settle or is it as per recommendation somewhere?
BT routine is pretty short, just based on what various books suggest:
1. Quiet play in crib
2. Read books
3. Go potty
4. Change into overnight diaper and PJs
5. Swaddle
6. Turn on white noise and turn down lights
6. Bounce/rock/sing until asleep
It usually takes a long time to get her to sleep, unlike the naps :\ And she doesn't settle as well -- at naps, she handles a little jostling when being put down and either goes back to sleep herself or responds to shush-pat. Maybe we need to cut the books? Or maybe once we get her naps sorted out, BT will sort out too?
Here was yesterday's EASY!
WAKE & E 7:00 (A=1h30m)
S 8:30-9:15 (S=45m)
E 9:15 (A=1h45m)
S 11:00-11:45 (S=45m)
E 12:15 (A=1h45m)
E 1:00 (snack)
S 1:30-2:50 (S=1h20m !!!!!)
E 2:50 (A=1h40m)
S 4:30-5:10 (S=40m shush-pat worked!!)
E 5:20 (A=1h50m)
E 6:10
A Did bedtime routine
S 7:10-7:45 (S=35m *sadface*)
E 7:45 (A=2h15m)
A quiet play in crib
SLEEP 10:00 (started trying at 9:30, which would have been A=1h45m)
Today has been going well, even with an outing messing things up!!
WAKE & E 6:45 (A=1h50m)
S 8:35-9:50 (S=1h15m -- she would have slept longer but we had to go out! Tried to transfer to carseat, but she woke up)
E 10:15 (A=1h50m)
S 11:40-11:55/12:15-12:20/12:25-1:15 (S=15m, 5m, 50m -- fell asleep in carseat, woke when transferred, woke at jolts, held her until deep sleep for last one)
Here's hoping we get a good afternoon nap in!
-
Siigh, spoke too soon. The rest of the day wasn't as great. Maybe cutting short the first nap threw everything off.
WAKE & E 6:45
S 8:35-9:50
A=1:50
S=1:15 -- she would have slept longer but we had to go out! Tried to transfer to carseat, but she woke up
E 10:15
S 11:40-11:55 / 12:15-12:20 / 12:25-1:15
A=1:50
S=15m, 5m, 50m -- fell asleep in carseat, woke when transferred, resettled but woke at jolts, resettled and held her until deep sleep for last one
E 1:30
S 2:50-3:40 / 4:00-4:20
A=1:35 - We wanted a longer A time, but she fell asleep while Dad took her for a walk
S=50m, 20m - Tried to resettle, but she wouldn't let me put her back down so I held her for the second bit. Then she woke up happy.
E 4:30
S 5:45-6:30
A=1:25 - Again, wanted a longer A time, but she just got suuuuper cranky
S=45m
E 6:30
S 7:45-???
A=1:15
I expect this to be a nap, but hopefully she'll go down for real bedtime at 9:30. What does it mean when the wake times go down like this? Maybe A=1:50 was pushing it too far? How do you recover from a short nap without throwing off the entire day?
Also, shush-pat has started working for me when first putting her down for a nap, but when she wakes up at :45 or :50, it doesn't work at all. In fact, not much does - I hold her, rock her, bounce her, but sometimes she doesn't settle at all, or only fitfully until the next E. Sometimes it seems like it would be better to just take her out and start the next EASY early. Obviously if she wakes up without even getting in a full sleep cycle, I would try to resettle her, but is it different for long-but-not-long-enough naps? She's often happy as soon as she's fed. Does that mean she's waking hungry? And if so, is it bad to make her wait?
-
Maybe cutting short the first nap threw everything off
It often does. Sometimes you have no option but if you have the choice, try not to wake LO from a nap :)
WAKE & E 6:45S 8:35-9:50 A=1:50 S=1:15 -- she would have slept longer but we had to go out! Tried to transfer to carseat, but she woke up
This suggests that you've got the right A time at least for first up - see how a day goes when you don't have to wake her during the nap, I think you'll find its a lot better.
The rest of the naps were a bit disjointed - those last couple were clearly UT but that second one was probably OT.
With those long but not quite long enough naps, they're not restorative, so you can trim your A times for those by a little bit - I'd say about 10min or so given how she's gone so far. Its a tricky balance to strike because you don't want more UT naps but OT ones are tricky too.
Have you read about hold through the jolts? That might be the go for you resettling - if you can get there at the 20min mark and watch her then hold her through that transition, that can help a lot.
Also, shush-pat has started working for me when first putting her down for a nap, but when she wakes up at :45 or :50, it doesn't work at all.
I think you'll find that's because she's ready to get up - she was a little UT for that nap but with still a little OT running in the background from these short naps for so long so its is probably even harder to resettle those UT naps at the moment. They will get easier once she's more established on a more suitable routine for her.
-
Well, today was... weird. We had an EASAS. Maybe transitioning out of the swaddle is messing everything up. Will stick with it for a few more days.
Last night BT was 10:30
NW 3:00
W & E 7:00 (snoozed while eating)
E 7:40
S 8:45-9:40
A=1:45 S=0:45 (*sadface*)
E 9:55
E 10:45 (fell properly asleep eating! that's weird!)
S 11:10-11:55
A=1:30, S=0:45
A (no eating) was cranky
S 12:45-1:55 / resettled / 1:55-2:30
A=0:50, S=1:45 (!!)
E 2:30 (short snooze)
E 3:00
S 4:15-5:00 (woke happy)
A=1:45, S=0:45
E 5:20
S 6:20-7:15 (got super cranky and had to go to sleep after a short A time)
A=1:20, S=0:45
E 7:30
BT ???
Hopefully we'll get an earlier bedtime. Hope springs eternal.
-
My post has disappeared :(
Basically I said that yes, the swaddle weaning can mess with naps - try hold through the jolts if you so desire.
I also mentioned that if you want an earlier BT, you probably have to just bite the bullet and stop getting her up when she wakes after BT at 7/7:30. Keep the room quiet and dark, BF if necessary but likely not given she's just had a BT BF and just keep trying to resettle. She will wonder what's changed and may cry - its her only method of communication, so don't be too worried about crying, sometimes its just "Hey, mum, why are you changing this on me?!". Stay with her, so she knows you're there (be sure she's not hungry, got a dirty nappy or in some kind of pain, of course) and say a sleepy phrase or sing to her. Shush/pat may start being a sleep association for her soon so that may turn out to be more useful than it has been before.
Great to have that 1:45 nap - she can make it through the 45min mark on her own and she can sleep a long total nap so there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Stick with 1:45 A time for a total of 3-4 days then if you're still getting all these 45min naps, maybe push to 2hr and see what happens. You may end up staying put at 2hr for a little while but given how well she does on so little night sleep, I'm starting to think you may have a low sleep needs kiddo on your hands :)
-
How would I know when I've pushed A time too far? If she has trouble settling for a nap? Trouble staying asleep till 45 mins?
I'm wondering if some of these 50-55 minute naps are actually 45 mins, but she stays quietly in her crib for 5-10 minutes, maybe trying to go back to sleep? I suppose I'd need to stay in the room and watch to see. She doesn't seem to need me to hold thru the jolts when she first goes down, but maybe she needs it for the second cycle. I'll try tomorrow.
-
How would I know when I've pushed A time too far? If she has trouble settling for a nap? Trouble staying asleep till 45 mins
Naps are usually ~30mins and far more easily resettled if you're there quickly. You'll know.
I'm wondering if some of these 50-55 minute naps are actually 45 mins, but she stays quietly in her crib for 5-10 minutes, maybe trying to go back to sleep?
Quite possible.
-
Hmm, OK, I am thinking her ideal A time is somewhere around 2 hours...?
Today, so far:
(Night wake/feeds at 2am and 6am)
WAKE ~8:00 (I was sleeping, but I think around there)
E 8:15
E 9:15
S 10:10-10:45 / 11:05-12:10
A=2:10*, S=0:35**, 1:05
* Super long A time! I was watching for fussy signs, but she was still playing as 2 hours came and went, and then I decided enough was enough and put her to sleep.
** First segment was short, so was this OT? I tried shush-pat to get her down again but it didn't work; she went to sleep right away with a little bouncing, but woke up when I laid her down, so I bounced her again and held her for the first 15-20 minutes of the long second segment.
E 12:15
E 1:15
S 2:05-2:50 / bounced+rocked till 3:40 but kept waking*
A=1:55, S=0:45
* This time, even though I could put her back to sleep with bouncing, she kept waking up. And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*
EDIT: OOOOKAY, and she just fell asleep on her blanket in the living room... with a poopy diaper...
E 3:40
S 4:30
A=0:50
-
First segment was short, so was this OT?
Likely, yes. That can be a sign you have the right A time and just need to give her a few days to settle into it or its a bit too much. I'd stick with that for a couple of days and see if it extends - think it might given the rest of the sleep she had thereafter.
S 2:05-2:50 / bounced+rocked till 3:40 but kept waking* A=1:55, S=0:45 * This time, even though I could put her back to sleep with bouncing, she kept waking up. And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*EDIT: OOOOKAY, and she just fell asleep on her blanket in the living room... with a poopy diaper...E 3:40S 4:30 A=0:50
Ok, so really, if you're calling it a 45min nap, the A time woul dbe counted from 2:50 to 4:30 which is 1:40 which is probably good/a touch short after a short nap (but maybe perfect for her since she fell asleep herself).
When DS was about 4-5 months old, he was so bad with transitioning to his bedroom that I would wrap him (as a sleep cue) and let him nap on the loungeroom floor. Totally worked well for us.
And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*
Quite possibly.
-
I think I'm doing something wrong in how I'm trying to extend her naps. =\
A few times now, when I've snuck in her room at :35 to observe the transition... nothing happens. Like, seriously, nothing. She doesn't even stir. Around :50-:55 I give up and leave... and then she wakes up around 1:00-1:10! What's going on? Is it possible to transition cycles without stirring? There's no way her sleep cycle is that LONG, is it? Otherwise... maybe she's waking up and putting herself back to sleep around :20? I only sh-pat her to sleep, she doesn't make noise or anything at :10 or :20 so I don't watch the first 20 minutes. ???
Other times, she does start moving around :45. I hold her limbs so they don't flail around... but she wakes up anyway! So I guess she's not jolting herself awake, it's just old fashioned can't-move-through-sleep-stages??
On the plus side, last night she went to sleep at 9:15 and Daddy was able to bounce her back to sleep when she woke around 11:15. And she slept in this morning till 8:30. So her night sleep has definitely lengthened, even though she's still hard to put down at BT.
She's 14 weeks old today :)
-
Is it possible to transition cycles without stirring?
Yes, It is possible.
There's no way her sleep cycle is that LONG, is it?
Possible but highly unlikely, esp. given the number of 45min naps.
On the plus side, last night she went to sleep at 9:15 and Daddy was able to bounce her back to sleep when she woke around 11:15. And she slept in this morning till 8:30. So her night sleep has definitely lengthened, even though she's still hard to put down at BT.
That's a great night - 11hr+! As her body gets used to this new sleep regime, it will get easier. I think your naps have improved enough to get her to sleep better at night which should in turn help the naps work better too. Hang in there with your 2-2:10 A times for a few more days.
Other times, she does start moving around :45. I hold her limbs so they don't flail around... but she wakes up anyway! So I guess she's not jolting herself awake, it's just old fashioned can't-move-through-sleep-stages??
Quite possibly - I think most of the 45mn naps you've had have been a bit UT anyway.
-
I think we just had our first real successfully extended nap! No bouncing or rocking - just plain old shush-pat. This was after a wake time of 2:10.
I snuck in the room and she started stirring at 45m -- first just little twitches of her hands and feet, then little smiles/chuckles, then some larger movements and blinking her eyes, and then a cry. Just a short complain-y cry, though, with her eyes closed, so I sprung into action! Started shushing and patting and within a minute or two she had calmed down. I kept patting until she stopped moving and then tried to stop, but she cried again, so I kept going until 1h15m, just patting. She stirred again around 1h45m and I patted her -- then I thought maybe I shouldn't, since the nap was almost 2 hours already, but the damage was done! ;) She kept sleeping! Total of 2 hours and 45 minutes. She woke up soooo happy.
Is it better to start the shush-patting earlier into her movements? I guess I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't.
Suppose we are aiming for a 4h EASY with top-up feeds, 8-8. How are we supposed to do the evenings? i.e. the first part of the day would be 2h awake / 2h nap:
WAKE & E 8:00
E 9:00
S 10:00-12:00
E 12:00
E 1:00
S 2:00-4:00
Then what about between 4 and 8? You don't do another long nap, do you? Do you do another full A time? Or shorter A times? When do you do the cluster feeds? Something like this?
E 4:00
E 5:00
S 6:00-6:45
E 6:45
E 7:45
BT 8:00
-
Is it better to start the shush-patting earlier into her movements? I guess I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't.
It can work better if you do - probably doesn't matter to wait and see as you did today. Eventually you will find you can just pop a hand on her and shush a bit or just leave her and she'll go through on her own.
Then what about between 4 and 8? You don't do another long nap, do you? Do you do another full A time? Or shorter A times? When do you do the cluster feeds? Something like this?E 4:00E 5:00S 6:00-6:45E 6:45E 7:45BT 8:00
You've hit the nail on the head :) Some babies only do the 1:30 naps though, so you do get 3 full naps but if your LO is like mine sleep-wise (long A times, average sleep totals), you might get those 2hr naps and do 2 naps + catnap. You could also do 5:45-6:30 nap if she'll go down that early which she might by the end of the day.
-
You could also do 5:45-6:30 nap if she'll go down that early which she might by the end of the day.
I think we have to do this, or even try to move it earlier... looking at my log for the past week, she's NEVER gone down within an hour of the last nap. =\
I feel spoiled by naptime now... she goes to sleep so quickly then, so bedtime is a nasty shock. Yesterday, her last nap was 6:35-7:20, and we spent most of 8:40-9:45 getting her to sleep. There was a bit where we gave up and let her play in her crib for a few minutes. I guess for naps, if it took forever to rock her and she kept waking, it meant she wasn't tired. So maybe she really does need 2h to be tired after her CN??
-
You could cap the CN a bit shorter - 30 min should be enough to get her through to a more reasonable BT...
-
Progress... sort of. 3 night wakings instead of two, so I was tired.
NW 2:30, 4:00, 6:40
WU 8:00
E 8:15
E 9:10
S 9:40-10:25 (45m) -- she was so fussy I put her to sleep after only 1:40 A time, but I guess that was UT. I went in at :35 to pat her thru the transition, but even though I was patting, she woke up. At least she woke up happy...
E 10:55 (wasn't hungry right away)
S 12:10-1:10 (1h) -- this was after 1:45 A time. She fell asleep in the carrier while I walked. Tried to extend -- I was nearby and watching for the transition... :35, nothing, :40, nothing, :45, nothing, :50, nothing, *snoozed* and when I woke up at 1h she was awake and quiet. Sigh. UT still?? But I didn't even put her to sleep... she fell asleep herself...
A 1:10-1:45 Tried shush-patting but she just grinned up at me like "Hahaha Mommy what a funny noise you're making." Tried bouncing -- she went to sleep but wouldn't stay asleep. Finally I gave up and...
E 1:45 ...fed her lying down. Figured at least *I* could get a snooze in, and...
S 1:45-4:10 ...when I woke up she was sleeping, so I figured why mess with a good thing, right?
E 3:30 (partway thru nap because I woke her by coughing)
So the first half of the day was a mess, but then again, we ended up awake at 4pm with 4 hours of sleep, so maybe not so bad?
Then:
CN 5:25-6:00
E 6:15
E 7:30
S 8:20 ...after 2:20 A time
I usually end up nursing her back to sleep a few times in the evenings. Sometimes it doesn't work and there's bouncing involved too. Sighhhh. Gotta go.
-
S 12:10-1:10 (1h) -- this was after 1:45 A time. She fell asleep in the carrier while I walked. Tried to extend -- I was nearby and watching for the transition... :35, nothing, :40, nothing, :45, nothing, :50, nothing, *snoozed* and when I woke up at 1h she was awake and quiet. Sigh. UT still?? But I didn't even put her to sleep... she fell asleep herself...
She did, but in a situation pretty conducive to falling asleep...
S 1:45-4:10 ...when I woke up she was sleeping, so I figured why mess with a good thing, right?
Good nap :)
S 8:20 ...after 2:20 A timeI usually end up nursing her back to sleep a few times in the evenings. Sometimes it doesn't work and there's bouncing involved too. Sighhhh. Gotta go.
Could be a few things contributing, my main bets would be:
- its a pretty late BT for a baby, might work well for her but you might find a 7-7 day fits better with her natural body clock. You could try that if you wanted to.
- She might be overtired / overstimulated / both at BT - this can give you frequent wakings in the early evening, usually the first 3hr after BT.
-
- its a pretty late BT for a baby, might work well for her but you might find a 7-7 day fits better with her natural body clock. You could try that if you wanted to.
Urgh, do you think her 6:00-6:30am "night wakings" are actually the start of her day?? I usually just feed her and she goes back to sleep, but today she woke at 6 and wouldn't go back to sleep, maybe because of the early bedtime last night. Nooo, I can't do mornings that early! :( :(
What are good A's to do before bedtime? She's normally just playing on her blanket (either making faces at herself in the mirror, or tugging on her balloons). We stopped reading books at BT. We don't do a bath. :\
Today, she took a short first nap (45m) and when I tried to shush-pat her down for her second nap, she screamed/cried :( It was after 1:45 of A time; I took her earlier than I wanted to because she was getting sooo fussy. Anyway I tried picking her up and shush-patting a few times but she just kept crying whenever I put her down. So I reverted to the yoga ball + Edelweiss, and that worked fine. But weird after so many days of going down easily! I thought maybe OT, so I stuck around in case she woke early, but she slept the full 45 minutes and woke up happy.
-
Urgh, do you think her 6:00-6:30am "night wakings" are actually the start of her day??
Possibly... You might be able to push it closer to 7 but you might find that's just how she's wired for now. FWIW, I thought DS would be 6am waking normal always and when we moved when he was 5.5, he started sleeping til 7 or even later so its possible it won't be forever - keep in mind one day you'll be struggling to get her to get up for school when she's a teenager.
But weird after so many days of going down easily!
Sometimes there's a bit of a regression around 5-6 days into a new routine, almost like a test of your resolve with the change. Stick with it, be consistent for the next couple of days and it should all fall into place again.
-
Stick with it, be consistent for the next couple of days and it should all fall into place again.
Sigh, I'll try, but I'm feeling so discouraged... today she had A times of 2:40 (!), 2:00, 2:00, 2:20, and STILL had short naps -- 45 mins for the first three, 1 hour 10 for the last. Each nap she wakes up quietly, just opens her eyes and blinks the sleep out, so there's no jolts to hold. She's too awake to shush-pat back down. I don't know what to do. And now she's being a bear to get down for bedtime :(
Edit: here we are at 10pm and she's still up. She woke up at 6am today. She napped 5:20-6:30pm, and we've been trying to put her to sleep since 8pm. Everything is awful. I'm seriously considering going back to shorter A times. If she's going to short nap anyway, I may as well get more of them. :(
-
Yes, I can see that would be discouraging after feeling like you're winning for the last few days. Stick with the 2ish hr A times for a few more days. Really by now average is 1:45 so you'd not be going back all that much or for all that long (2 weeks). These aren't OT short naps.
Is she trying new things - rolling was something she was having a go at recently. That can put a spanner in the works with naps too for a little while.
-
Is she trying new things - rolling was something she was having a go at recently. That can put a spanner in the works with naps too for a little while.
Ye-e-es... she has been working on reaching for things and bringing them to her mouth. Still not great at it, but she's trying. And her bowel movements have totally changed -- she used to have multiple BMs a day, then there were a couple days of only 1 per day, then she skipped a day for the first time... *despair* but she's a baby! She's ALWAYS going to be working on new things... are naps going to be disrupted every time? :(
-
Yes, naps are disrupted on average 1.5 weeks per month I'd say. They're little humans, not robots and yes, they're pretty variable in most things they do. The routine does sertle and there will be good periods in between but there will be disruptions for the next few years. They'll become less frequent as she gets older.
-
Maybe we're just in a developmental short nap phase... or maybe she is *really* low sleep needs =\ For the past couple days she's gone to bed at 10:00pm and woken up at 8:45am. So just under 11 hours of night sleep.
Yesterday, she woke from a nap at 4:30pm and didn't go down until 8:00pm! That's 3:30 wake time! We tried every half hour or so from 6pm on, but she just wasn't tired. I was hoping it'd be BT, but she woke after 45 minutes. We spent until 10:00pm putting her back to sleep, and then she was down until her next NW at 2:00am. I'm wondering if we shouldn't try so hard and just accept her BT is late. =\
Today she's had 1h naps on 2:20 and 2:10 wake times. Question: How much crankiness is normal toward the end of waketime? I assume some is normal since she's getting tired, but at what point is crankiness a sign you need to put baby to sleep? I've been extending her waketime as far as I can with minor crankiness but we're still getting UT naps, so I'm wondering if I have to keep her awake *seriously* cranky.
-
Generally there's the kind of cranky that can be 'fixed' with changing activity - that is ok but then there's the cranky that keeps going no matter what you do ant that is likely tired/hungry/pain/dirty nappy/trying to poo/any number of other things which at around the right A time usually means tired.
-
Hmm, okay, got it. I'm just going to relax about the naps, I think. Even though they are short, she is waking up happy, and she goes to sleep easily. Maybe she just doesn't need much day sleep? So I'll stick with shush-patting for the beginning of the nap if possible and then let her get up when she wakes up content. Trying to resettle and failing all the time is kind of stressful.
A bedtime question: what does it mean if baby goes down easily for bedtime but wakes up 45 minutes later? I always try nursing her in the hopes she'll feed and go back to sleep like she does at her NW, but she usually requires bouncing. Are night sleep cycles still 45 minutes? Is there something special about the first one?
EASY from yesterday: She didn't go to sleep until late, but she woke up late too. She was fine and happy all day as long as she wasn't hungry. And this is the FIRST TIME she has ever gone to sleep at BT without an hour+ of bouncing -- she went to sleep within 5 minutes!
(Previous) BT 10:00pm
NW 2:00, 5:00, 6:30, 7:15
WU 8:45am
E 9:00
E 10:10
S 11:05-12:05 (1h, A=2:20)
E 12:10
E 1:45
S 2:15-3:15 (1h, A=2:10)
E 3:20
E 5:15
S 5:50-6:35 (45m, A=2:35)
E 6:45
E 8:00
E 9:30
S 10:00
A(resettling) 10:45-11:20
-
A bedtime question: what does it mean if baby goes down easily for bedtime but wakes up 45 minutes later?
Yeah, so this is usually overstimulation or overtiredness. OT is possible given the short naps - just an accumulation during the day but I don't think you're looking at a chronic OT buildup. Its quite possible she's just going through that 4mo regression a little early too :) Some of our fun spirited LOs who get to 2hr A times earlier do that regression earlier too.
You could try a wake to sleep on her around 30-35min into the BT sleep just to see if that helps disrupt her sleep cycle enough to get her through that transition.
-
Its quite possible she's just going through that 4mo regression a little early too
I hope so! That means things will get better soon...!
SPEAKING OF WHICH: We just had our first 1h30m nap -- no AP or resettling -- since I started this post! I tried W2S at 35m, but I don't know if it did anything (I brushed her cheek but she didn't stir). Anyway, she woke up sooo happy :) I forgot how happy she is after a long nap. It was even a short waketime -- 1:15 or 1:45 depending on where you count the beginning.
-
Yay for that long nap! It does make a big difference. Fingers crossed that's her coming out the other side and things will get better from now :)
-
Hope so, hope so...!
As of a few days ago, shush-pat has stopped working. It's so weird. She used to just sort of complain-cry when I put her down and shush-pat would take care of it. Now she *screams*. Even picking her up and shush-patting on my shoulder doesn't help - she arches her back and flails her limbs and is very very unhappy. You're not supposed to continue shush-pat if baby is working themselves up into a state, right? What are you supposed to do? Only bouncing helps, and once bounced, she goes to sleep very quickly. But we're trying to get away from the bouncing!! We were so close! :( I'm hoping this too is just a phase.
-
Okay, so here's what I tried doing:
PART 1:
1. Bounce in arms until she stops screaming
2. Switch to shhhh-ing in arms
3. When she starts screaming again, repeat UNTIL
PART 2:
1. Hold in arms and shhhh until her eyes start to close
2. Set down in crib, shhhhing
3. When she starts screaming again, repeat UNTIL
(... well, actually, I ended up shhing her to sleep in my arms accidentally this time, but NEXT TIME...)
PART 3
1. Shhh pat in crib until asleep
Does this seem right? I CAN'T get her to calm down and stop screaming without the bouncing in the beginning, but I won't do it to put her to sleep.
EDIT: Also-- I'm wondering if my wind down needs tweaking. We basically don't do any right now because she didn't seem to need it, but maybe things have changed. I read a few other threads where they put baby in the crib for some quiet wind down before going to sleep, but the problem is at the end of her A time, she starts crying if I set her down! Even when shush-pat was working, she cried while I put her in her sleep sack.
-
That's fine - there's a technique called gradual withdrawal where you teach this all in stages and slowly remove your assistance. What you're doing is something similar.
Is she screaming because she's UT?
Is she screaming with pain? The pain I'm thinking of is reflux and I think unlikely because I don't think the bouncing would help with that but worth thinking about.
and yes, fighting sleep will happen many times in the coming years. There is no silver bullet for getting kids to sleep like robots.
-
Is she screaming because she's UT?
Is she screaming with pain? The pain I'm thinking of is reflux and I think unlikely because I don't think the bouncing would help with that but worth thinking about.
I don't think it's pain because it sounds different from the cry she makes when she bonks her head or gets a shot.
And she stops immediately with bouncing, and she sleeps fine once she goes to sleep. She might be UT, given the short naps, but I'm starting to think they are developmental. She's sooo cranky at the end of A time, and if bounced, she goes RIGHT to sleep. (This is after a pretty long A time for a 3.5mo old -- 2:15 and 1:50 for the last two naps). She really does just seem MAD that I'm not bouncing her like she wants me to.
Well, wish me luck. Is there a time limit where I should cut my losses and try again next nap? I wouldn't want to make her overtired in the process, but I don't want to confuse her by being inconsistent. Each minute she cries feels like ten though... I really hate making her cry :(
EDIT: One more question. If she does short naps earlier in the day, is it okay to let her sleep longer later to make up for it? Is a 3 hour nap OK or will I regret it at BT?
-
She really does just seem MAD that I'm not bouncing her like she wants me to.
Yep, you've changed what she's known for her entire life as the way she falls asleep. She will be mad. Being there with her and helping her learn another way is ok but its not no-cry.
If she does short naps earlier in the day, is it okay to let her sleep longer later to make up for it? Is a 3 hour nap OK or will I regret it at BT?
Probably. Its generally accepted around here that 3 sleep cycles is about as much as you can allow before things get hairy and they start shifting their day - so 2:15 is about the max. You can go in at 2hr or so and just wake her when she stirs - that's the least horrible way to be woken but its not necessarily going to be pretty any way you go about it. Having said that, if she by some miracle does that at your 6:30 nap - let her go and make it her new BT :)
-
I can't do it, I can't do it. It's too much crying. She's so upset. I feel like she's making negative associations with bedtime now. She cries when I start getting her zipadeezip out.
Is there another way to get rid of the bouncing? I thought maybe she IS undertired, but yesterday even though getting her to sleep was terrible, her naps were the best they've ever been:
WU 7:30
E 7:30
S 9:30-10:30/10:30-11 (1h30m, resettled at 1h)
E 11:00
E 12:45
S 1:00-2:00/2:00-2:30 (1h30m, resettled at 1h)
E 2:30
E 4:00 (snack)
S 4:10-5:20 (1h10m)
E 5:30
E 7:00-7:20 then started trying to put her to sleep
BT 8:00 (resettled at 8:40, woke for DF at 10:30)
So even though she wouldn't shush-pat to sleep, she slept at least an hour each time and the first two naps I was able to extend. That means she wasn't UT, right? Then why is shush-pat not working? And what do I DO??
Then today has been a total mess. The first part of the night was good: woke for feeds at 10:30pm and 2am, but then the wee hours were terrible: woke at 3:30am and 4am (maybe the same waking?) and then at 6am when she woke up she wouldn't go back to sleep. I'm not really sure what she did between 6 and 8:30am because I was mostly sleeping and patting her occasionally when she made noise. And her two naps today have been 45 minutes and I haven't been able to resettle her :(:(
-
I can't do it, I can't do it. It's too much crying. She's so upset. I feel like she's making negative associations with bedtime now. She cries when I start getting her zipadeezip out.
Lets take a step back - what was it you were wanting to achieve?
You've made a lot of progress towards getting better naps - they're longer, she's taking much less time to settle. If you were looking to be able to put her down awake and leave, you've made progress there too but you're just not there yet. If you want to bounce her, that's fine. There's no reason not to unless you're unable to. I tend to suggest reducing bouncing and other similar things while LO is still small enough to be able to do it now that I've seen a reasonable number of women post here with babies that cannot sleep because they've always been bounced and they're just too big to do that any more. So if you bounce when necessary and work on gradually reducing it over a couple of weeks to a months or two, that's absolutely fine. There's not reason to do it immediately.
So even though she wouldn't shush-pat to sleep, she slept at least an hour each time and the first two naps I was able to extend. That means she wasn't UT, right? Then why is shush-pat not working? And what do I DO??
Ok, so the 1hr waking with easy resettle suggests she's a little UT but you're pretty close to the right A time. This is usually the sign you'll start seeing every couple of weeks and then its time to increase ~10min A time. Your 45min naps today would suggest that's the case also. Keeping increasing gradually every couple of weeks if the key to keeping this routine appropriate for LO. I think you just have a long A time kiddo there. Doesn't mean low sleep needs necessarily but I think that's probably also the case.
WRT settling, shush/pat is ONE technique. The theory of it is to provide LO with 2 things to think about/focus on (not visual) and allow them to relax, so any form of sound - white noise, singing, shushing - will work with any kind of touch - patting, holding a hand on her, stroking her cheek.
Hugs for the less than ideal day :( As my husband would say when I was a mess after a day like that: "She's alive, fed, clothed, and healthy. You're doing a good job.".
-
Thanks for the perspective. You're right - things have improved, even though we're having a rough patch right now.
My worry about continuing to bounce her to sleep is that she'll continue waking at 45 minutes and needing resettling. It makes the 'Y' part really hard to do and that wears on me. But you're right, if we can get it under control within a few weeks or a month, that would be fine too.
Last night at least was good...ish. We couldn't get her to sleep until 11pm, but she slept until 7:45am with only two night wakings+feeds... that's pretty good for her. Today's been... not great... but at least it's a weekend and DH is here to help.
-
Perhaps rather than moving straight from bouncing to shush/pat in the crib is to incorporate shushing into slightly less bouncing, then sit on the ball holding her without bouncing and perhaps start patting her back then keep removing the bouncing in smaller steps.
-
Yes- that's a good plan. :) We're doing shushing while bouncing now, so hopefully we can move through those phases without too much delay. I'm trying to focus on the positives: last night was the best ever! Asleep by 9:20pm, only 2 night wakings + DF, and she slept almost 11 hours! I woke up feeling rested. Thank you again for all your help - we've made so much progress :)
-
What does it mean if she's waking 35 minutes into a nap? Yesterday and today she did it in the morning. Both were after 1:50 A time, so I wouldn't expect her to be OT... she's done great long naps on even longer A times before. Is it possible for A time to *shorten*?
-
Ugh, 35min is tricky - can be OT/UT, more often UT and can also be overstimulation.
Is it possible for A time to *shorten*?
Yes. Around 9 months is notorious for people worrying their baby is the only one suddenly refusing to have a second nap then in a couple of weeks, A times go back down and kiddo sleeps two naps again. Its mostly when a baby is working on a new task / going through a leap (https://www.thewonderweeks.com/the-mental-leaps-and-wonder-weeks/) that A times get much longer then once the leap is done they'll get that bit shorter again.
-
Hm, ok, I'll keep an eye on those 35m naps. We didn't have any today.
Tonight we were having some trouble getting her to sleep, so I put an arms-only swaddle on. Lo and behold, shush-pat works again. Does shush-pat only work with a swaddle?? =\ But it's supposed to teach independent sleep without a swaddle too, right? If we use a swaddle, we have to take it off once she's asleep because she rolls.
-
Sometimes the swaddle becomes a sleep cue - totally reasonable to use it as one then take it off when she's asleep. The whole-body pressure of it can help calm LO down - there's a technique used for kids who are having sensory issues in which they are wrapped in a piece of fabric or a carpet that helps them calm their senses.
Does shush-pat only work with a swaddle??
Nope, still use it sometimes with my 6yo ;) Having said that though, he sometimes asks to be swaddled too...
Arms are pretty interesting things when you're 4 months old. Having them out and even just being able to move them about can definitely be distracting to the falling asleep process.
-
Hmm okay. Right now we wait 20 minutes before we take the swaddle off, which is fine at bedtime but kind of a drag to do for each 45-minute nap =\ I guess I will experiment with taking it off as soon as she's relaxed enough. Sigh. I guess if I had read BW earlier and started working on independent sleep right away, maybe she would have learned it before the rolling. Next kid...
I think she must be going through something, because last night she slept for almost 12 hours (longest ever) and her A times today have been super short (1:25 and 1:15).
-
I guess if I had read BW earlier and started working on independent sleep right away, maybe she would have learned it before the rolling.
It may or may not have helped. Teaching independent sleep is a process and those first few months are different with every child.
You might find she settles better for naps once she's had a few good long nights. The better day sleep tends to make nights better then the days improve further again.
You've learned heaps - love that you can observe she's slept a lot more and see she must be going through something - she may be ill or working her way out of some OT or something. Great that you've followed her lead and observed - that capacity stands you in great stead for the next years :)
-
Funny how they grow so fast but sleep training is so slow :)
Today we went on a walk in the morning. She was supposed to fall asleep in the carrier but she didn't, so she ended up staying awake almost 5 hours with only a short catnap while walking (!) I was worried what this'd do to the rest of her day, but she ended up sleeping 1h-resettle-1h soon after we got home, and she did another 1h in the afternoon. But there's no way she was UT for that first nap...! Why the 1h? A mystery... Maybe UT because of the catnap layered over OT?
Tried to get her to do an 8pm BT but she woke up after half an hour and didn't go to sleep again until 10pm. I think I timed it wrong: she woke from a nap at 5pm, so I figured we would start the BT process at 7pm and hopefully finish by 8pm. Which we did, but she didn't stay down, so maybe she was OT and I should have planned on an extra nap? But I think if she napped at 6:30-7:00, she wouldn't be tired at 8pm. What should I have done? (She woke up at 7:30am this morning but we're aiming for an 8-8 schedule.)
On the plus side, she went to sleep with shush-pat! I had to swaddle her arms *and* hold her legs to get it to work. Question: I was hoping that getting her to fall asleep with shush-pat would help her transition sleep stages better and stop waking up at 45m or 1h, but since she requires the swaddling/holding, how can it? She won't be swaddled at the transitions.
-
Question: I was hoping that getting her to fall asleep with shush-pat would help her transition sleep stages better and stop waking up at 45m or 1h, but since she requires the swaddling/holding, how can it? She won't be swaddled at the transitions.
Hopefully she'll be a little more drowsy? Otherwise maybe hold through the jolts would suit her better?
I'd probably have done a 7:30 BT - nothing wrong with that really.
Not sure on that 1hr waking. Could be so many things :-/ Hard to know when there's not a pattern to it (not that's I'd suggest many 5hr A times just to get a pattern!!).
-
Hopefully she'll be a little more drowsy? Otherwise maybe hold through the jolts would suit her better?
OK, check me on my nap extension technique, cause I feel like I must be doing something wrong.
OCCASIONALLY, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes still closed, making unhappy noises. In these cases, I can usually shush-pat and she'll go back to sleep. I usually keep shush-patting for a good 10-20 minutes, not sure if it's necessary but better safe than sorry.
However, more often, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes OPEN. It's quite sudden. One minute she's still and sleeping, then she stirs slightly, then eyes open and quite alert - not really any jolting to hold. It's different from when she was a newborn and would sort of wake up very slowly, dozing off and on. Anyway, when she wakes up AWAKE like this, shush-patting does nothing, BUT if I pick her up and rock or bounce her, she goes back to sleep. However, most of the time she won't STAY asleep, even if I keep shush-patting or rocking/bouncing. I'm willing to keep doing it until she gets to deep sleep, but she just... won't. She wakes up. What does this mean? Since she *does* fall asleep, it seems like she might want more sleep. But she won't stay asleep, so is she just not tired enough?
TODAY was an interesting case. Her first two naps were only 40 minutes each. Her third nap, though...
She woke at 45m as usual, eyes open; I tried and failed to get her to sleep again. Gave up and figured we'd start our next EAS, so I took her potty and fed her. But then she still seemed kinda cranky so I figured I'd try to put her down again... and she went! I did hold her into deep sleep. So then I decided to take a nap too. She (and I) woke up after about an hour of this second nap segment. I decided NOT to extend this one, since I didn't want to steal from night sleep, but she fell asleep on E and would not wake up even when I took her out of her sleep sack and put her down not-so-gently. She slept another 50 minutes.
With these slightly-over-45 minute segments... the extra time really isn't doing much for her, right? I assume it's light sleep and not very restorative. So even though her total time was >3 hours, she really only had 3 cycles in there, I think. But are consecutive sleep cycles different from ones with breaks in between?
We put her down at 7:45 for BT but she woke up after 40 minutes. SIGH. I think she just will not do a 12 hour day. She does get *tired* at the 12h... it's just always a nap. We're not doing anything super exciting/overstimulating in the evenings, I don't think... just sort of rolling around on the play mat and slobbering on things. I don't understand why she won't SLEEP until so late =\
-
Nah, not doing anything wrong, Babies just are different and yours happens to wake like she does. Can't do much about that.
However, more often, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes OPEN. It's quite sudden. One minute she's still and sleeping, then she stirs slightly, then eyes open and quite alert - not really any jolting to hold. It's different from when she was a newborn and would sort of wake up very slowly, dozing off and on. Anyway, when she wakes up AWAKE like this, shush-patting does nothing, BUT if I pick her up and rock or bounce her, she goes back to sleep. However, most of the time she won't STAY asleep, even if I keep shush-patting or rocking/bouncing. I'm willing to keep doing it until she gets to deep sleep, but she just... won't. She wakes up. What does this mean? Since she *does* fall asleep, it seems like she might want more sleep. But she won't stay asleep, so is she just not tired enough?
Yep, UT. I just cut my losses with those.
But are consecutive sleep cycles different from ones with breaks in between?
Yes, they are slightly less restorative.
I don't understand why she won't SLEEP until so late =\
I suspect because she's used to getting back up again. If she were to only need an 11hr night and she's getting up for the day at 8 or 9am though, a 9 or 10om BT is actually reasonable. If you want a 7am BT, you have to be ok with a 6am WU for the day.
But then she still seemed kinda cranky so I figured I'd try to put her down again... and she went! I did hold her into deep sleep. So then I decided to take a nap too. She (and I) woke up after about an hour of this second nap segment. I decided NOT to extend this one, since I didn't want to steal from night sleep, but she fell asleep on E and would not wake up even when I took her out of her sleep sack and put her down not-so-gently. She slept another 50 minutes.
So this was good - you noticed that she wasn't doing so well and needed more sleep and gave it to her.
Overstimulation can be as simple as Dad coming home in the 2hr before BT, its really doesn't have to seem exciting to us ;)
-
If she were to only need an 11hr night and she's getting up for the day at 8 or 9am though, a 9 or 10om BT is actually reasonable. If you want a 7am BT, you have to be ok with a 6am WU for the day.
I have a question about where to count WU, actually. For the past several days, she's been waking up at 7-7:30am, no matter when we put her to sleep. I'm suspecting this is her natural WU time. BUT before she opens her eyes properly for the day, she usually wakes up for a feeding at 6:30-7:00. She seems to go back to sleep at the feeding, but she often moves around and then wakes up soon after, so... does that time count as sleep? Or should I count her day as starting at the feeding? For example, even though she didn't go to sleep until 10pm last night, today she woke up and I fed her at 6:30am. She went back to sleep and then opened her eyes at 7am. She went down for her first nap at 8:45 with NO BOUNCING! So was that A=2:15 (from the 6:30 feed) or A=1:45 (from the 7:00 eyes open)?
-
I'd count A time from 7 in that case, I think.
Sounds like she is starting to tell you 7/7:30 is her WU time so I'd make BT 8 and just not do lights or interaction thereafter. Fine to feed, change nappy, shush/pat or sing or whatever but just not playing and no lights. That makes it more obvious to her that its night time but you will probably have to be consistent with that for up to 1-2 weeks before it sinks in.
-
We've got three trips in the next three weeks, one involving a time change, so I expect everything to go kaput, but...
Yesterday was a mess but today has been going well! I was able to extend her first two naps with the following procedure:
- Go in at 40m and put my arm on her (she sleeps on her side)
- Nothing much happens for 10-15 minutes... she stirs very slightly sometimes, opens her eyes and shuts them again
- Around 55m she moves a lot - tries to roll onto her back, arches her back and curls it. I keep my hands on her to keep her on her side and keep her limbs from flailing but otherwise let her move -- it seems to upset her if I try to keep her totally still. She cries a little and I pat her back. She settles back down.
- I keep patting for 5 minutes and gradually taper off to just having my hands on her like the beginning. Around 1h05m I gently lift my hands. The whole operation is silent, except maybe a little bit of shushing when she cries.
Is this Hold Through The Jolts? I thought a "jolt" would be more like her startle reflex, not just regular rolling around...?
Since it happens at 55m, that's actually 10m into the *second* cycle, not the cycle transition, right?
I watched after her second nap cycle to see what happened when I didn't do anything... at 1h40m (which would be 10m into the third cycle?), she started the movement again. This time, without me holding her, she rolled onto her back and to her side, back and forth a few times, stretched out her arms, and woke up happy.
Interestingly, both of these long naps have been on short A times (1:10 and 1:25). That's below average for her age, and she used to stay up to 2h without too much trouble! No idea what's going on, but she was getting awfully cranky and she has a new lovely high-pitched screeching she's just learned to do. I didn't think it wise to try to push her A time further. As long as she's doing the 2-cycle nap, the short A times are OK, right?
One other question: why do the 4s's require *sitting* *quietly*? I've been doing non-bouncing things to relax her for naps, but I always sing, usually sway at least a little, and sometimes stand. I guess maybe she starts to fall asleep in-arms if I don't keep still? But if I keep still, she fusses and doesn't seem to relax.
EDIT: Tried to do the same thing on her third nap but... nothing happened. I mean, she just slept, didn't try to roll around or anything. Interesting...?
-
Yep, that's HTTJ. She may just have a slightly longer sleep cycle than average.
Yes, the A times are fine if she's not short-napping.
Wrt nap 3, she made it through the cycle transition on her own. That's great :)
-
:) I hope we're turning a corner! Can you look at my EASY from yesterday and tell me if you see anything I should change? Her naps were great, but BT didn't go well.
WU 7:20
E 7:20, 8:15
S 8:30-10:05 (HTTJ, S=1:35, A=1:10)
E 10:10, 10:40
S 11:30-1:10 (HTTJ, S=1:40, A=1:20)
E 1:15
S 2:45-4:15 (HTTJ not necessary, S=1:30, A=1:35)
E 4:15
CN 5:40-6:30 (S=50m, A=1:25)
E 6:30
BT woe
So here's where it all went wrong. We started going to the bedroom and changing into PJs, etc, around 7:30. I had her down at 8:00 (using shush-pat!), but she woke up again and I realized we didn't do a pre-BT feed, so I fed her. Tried and failed to put her down a few times -- each time I would get her to sleep, she would wake up again. At one point she was smiley and playful, so I let her kick around in her crib for a little while. I couldn't get shush-pat to work any more at this point. Eventually we got her to sleep at 9:30, but required bouncing and holding.
Her night sleep wasn't great either - kept waking every hour or two until 3:00, at which point she woke up with a big grin and wanted to play. D: So I let her kick in her crib for a few minutes until her happy sounds got less happy and then shush-patted her to sleep. She needed me to keep my arm on her to stop her legs and arms from moving, otherwise she kept waking back up. The rest of the night was OK, woke at 5a for a feed and then slept until WU.
This sounds like OT? But we were really trying not to push BT too late! Maybe we should have started BT routine even earlier? The 6:30 feed takes about 20 minutes, so maybe just 10-15 mins of activity and then straight to bed? She WAS pretty fussy, but I didn't want to put her down UT and end up with a nap... ???
EDIT: Yesterday was similar, although we started BT earlier and got her to bed by 8pm. But she kept waking up and needing me to shush-pat her back down all evening. And she kept waking up at night. She'd wake up waving her arms and legs around and rolling side-to-back-to-side etc. If I held all her limbs and shush-pat, she'd go back to sleep, but she kept re-waking back up after I let go. I can't hold her limbs all night! Only nursing seemed to get her to calm down and stop flailing. Sigh, she used to only wake up 2 or 3 times at night, but now it's much more :(
-
Update: another similar day, except this time starting at 8am:
BT (prev) 8:00pm (or maybe 10:00pm*)
NF 9:45*, 12:00, 3:00, 5:30 <-- This is REALLY GOOD by current standards
WU 8:00am
*The bedtime story: I got her to sleep at 8pm but she woke up at 8:45pm. After trying multiple times to put her back to sleep only to have her wake up again, I gave up and fed her at 9:45pm. (I DID feed her before BT! I was trying to wait until 10-11pm for a DF.) She went right to sleep afterward at 10pm. So is that an 8pm bedtime with a really long NW? Or an 8pm catnap with a 10pm bedtime?
E 8:00am
S 9:40-11:20 (HTTJ)
E 11:20
S 1:45-2:00 (didn't get there in time to HTTJ)
E 2:00
S 3:40-4:30 (tried to HTTJ but didn't work)
E 5:30
S 6:35-7:05 (I woke her)
E 7:05** (ended up doing multiple feeds over the next hour or two)
S 9:15*** (Sigh, I tried so hard to get an 8pm BT)
**Feeding:
She won't take long feeds very often. It's always 10 mins max per side, and sometimes she won't even take both sides. The second side, she'll go *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile* *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile*. She just isn't hungry I guess? Anyway, at 7:05, she only took one side; I gave her the other after doing part of her BT routine, and kept offering after each failed sleep attempt.
***The BT story:
She woke from a nap at 4:30pm and I didn't think she'd make it to BT without a CN. She'd woken up at 8am in the morning so I didn't think we could do an early BT at 6:30pm. I was out and didn't get home till 6:30. I put her to sleep right away and then woke her after 30 minutes because I was afraid if she slept longer, she wouldn't go to bed. Between 7:05 and 7:50, I fed her, sat and chilled in the rocking chair a bit, sang some slow songs, changed her into PJs, fed some more, then tried to get her to sleep. Tried and tried. Shush-pat, rocking, bouncing, singing, nursing... nothing worked. At 8:45pm, she finally finished a feed pretty mellow. I put her down and instead of fighting she let me hold her limbs while she drifted off. Then SADNESS when I let go at 9:10, she woke uuuup. ;_; I was so sad I just gave up and sat back. She fussed a bit, stuck her hand in her mouth, rolled over, and went to sleep.
We'll see if it sticks.
-
Sorry! I thought I had responded to your previous post.
So here's where it all went wrong. We started going to the bedroom and changing into PJs, etc, around 7:30. I had her down at 8:00 (using shush-pat!)
Probably a bit much A time off a short nap, I'd say.
You're doing a lot of holding... any way you could tuck her in? According to SIDS guidelines of course - with her feet at the end of the bed so she can't wriggle down and put her head under the blanket.
She fussed a bit, stuck her hand in her mouth, rolled over, and went to sleep.
So this is actually good - she can go to sleep on her own. She might need to be really drowsy to achieve it but she can do it.
*The bedtime story: I got her to sleep at 8pm but she woke up at 8:45pm. After trying multiple times to put her back to sleep only to have her wake up again, I gave up and fed her at 9:45pm. (I DID feed her before BT! I was trying to wait until 10-11pm for a DF.) She went right to sleep afterward at 10pm. So is that an 8pm bedtime with a really long NW? Or an 8pm catnap with a 10pm bedtime?
Provided she was always in her room and working on sleep, I'd call that 8pm BT. She's really used to BT being much later so it will take a while before she stays asleep when you put her to bed at 8pm for the night.
**Feeding:She won't take long feeds very often. It's always 10 mins max per side, and sometimes she won't even take both sides. The second side, she'll go *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile* *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile*. She just isn't hungry I guess? Anyway, at 7:05, she only took one side; I gave her the other after doing part of her BT routine, and kept offering after each failed sleep attempt.
That's fine - 10mins is pretty reasonable feed at this age. They get more efficient and feeding just doesn't take as long and she may not be hungry for the second side. I one side fed most of the time and offered the second side for growth spurts once I worked out what I was doing.
-
Last night was worse with the wakeups:
BT 9:15
NF 10:30, 12:30, 2:00, 3:30, 6:45 -- Something like that... I was tired. I tried (blearily) to hold/pat her for each wakeup, but that just seemed to annoy her, so I fed her and she went right back to sleep. Funnily enough, the second half of the night tends to be better than the first... I think DH and I are going to try to switch places tonight so he's next to her crib instead.
WU 8:00a
Now I know that some night feeds are normal, but this, this is not, I don't think. When she wakes up in the morning, she isn't even hungry!
You're doing a lot of holding... any way you could tuck her in? According to SIDS guidelines of course - with her feet at the end of the bed so she can't wriggle down and put her head under the blanket.
You know, I haven't looked into it. I looked into weighted blankets briefly, but I don't think they're considered safe. I'm not sure if anything is considered safe at 4mos... I think we're at peak SIDS risk, and basically anything that makes a baby sleep sounder also puts them at higher risk for SIDS. But as it stands, I end up sleeping with my arm on her, so that's not great either.
So this is actually good - she can go to sleep on her own. She might need to be really drowsy to achieve it but she can do it.
Yes! I was so surprised! I shouldn't have been, though, I've been noticing lately at naps that sometimes she doesn't want to be rocked or bounced -- she just wants to be laid down in her crib. She cries when laid down, but she stops almost immediately and falls asleep when shush-patted.
-
So sometimes the night goes pear-shaped when the A times are a bit short which I think might be part of your issue now. She's almost sleeping too well during the day. I think now she's getting sorted with *how* to get to sleep, you may find it easier to increase her A times gradually again and have an easier time knowing when the A times are long enough.
WRT night feeds, normal intervals between feeds are typically considered to be however long LO goes between feeds during the day, so if she's going 4hr in the day, 4hrly feeds at night is reasonable though often there is a longer stretch somewhere. Often waking that frequently is discomfort (teeth, gas, hunger, etc.). If she's waking and staying awake and happy for a while in the early hours of the morning, that's definitely a sign to push the A times. Those wakings early on in the night are likely OT from the day - either short naps, too long between CN and BT or just that BT is too late in relation to her body clock.
re: SIDS: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sudden-infant-death-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx -
Do:
Always place your baby on their back to sleep.
Place your baby in the "feet to foot" position (with their feet touching the end of the cot, Moses basket, or pram).
Keep your baby’s head uncovered. Their blanket should be tucked in no higher than their shoulders.
Let your baby sleep in a cot or Moses basket in the same room as you for the first six months.
Use a mattress that's firm, flat, waterproof and in good condition.
Breastfeed your baby (if you can). See Why breastfeed? for more information
-
Last night was better re: wakings! Well, in the sense that I first tried getting her back to sleep without feeding and it worked half the time. Instead of trying to hold her flailing limbs, I tried stroking/squeezing them. Sometimes it works. That was actually how I got her to relax to sleep at 10:15 -- when I massaged her legs, she stopped flailing and went to sleep.
BT 7:45
NW/F 8:30-10:15 (feed-activity-sleep), 12:00 (feed), 1:30 (wake only), 4:00 (feed), 6:45 (wake only)
WU 7:50
I have a question about A times though. The last few days I've been trying to do longer A times, and we've been doing anywhere from 1h30m to 2h. But she's been soooo grouchy to get down, and I'm wondering if it's too much. I'm aiming for 1h45m, but if she gets too fussy earlier, I call it earlier. Unfortunately, that means she's generally already fuss-crying when I go to the bedroom, and she cries/screams while I put on her sleep sack (zipadee-zip). It's always been like that, but before, she would generally calm down as soon as I picked her up or started bouncing and she would fall asleep during her lullaby. Now, she keeps crying, she won't listen to her lullaby, and I end up having to put her down and shush-pat through the crying. If it doesn't work, I pick her up and do the lullaby again and shush-pat again, and usually the second time works. But it takes longer shush-patting and sometimes she wakes up again and needs a little more shushing. Does this mean I'm overshooting the A time? Or maybe something's changed and she needs more wind-down than she used to?
-
How many days have you done the longer A times? Sometimes they just get used to shorter ones and don't like the push even though they need it.
Would you try incorporating a massage with that leg squeezing into your WD/pre-bed routine?
-
Today's the third day of longer A times. The two days before that were travel, so everything was off. She had shots today at the doctor's office and tomorrow we're traveling again for a few days, so I expect things to go off the rails, but we'll do our best to get back on routine over the weekend. I'll definitely keep trying the massage/WD thing.
Thank you so much for all your help :)
-
Hallo again! Sleep is going okay, but it feels like travel undid all the progress we were making towards independent sleep, sigh. Her night sleep was about the same as usual, but I had to either nurse or bounce to get her to sleep in the hotel. Now she still wants to be put to sleep, where before she was often doing well with shush-pat. I am going to try to catch back up as much as possible so that things don't get even worse when we travel again next week.
Today was not bad, but her A times are sooo weird. I've been doing an extra feed before going down for naps in the hopes that (a) maybe it will make pre-nap ritual less of a cry-fest and (b) maybe if she eats more during the day, she'll wake less at night. What do you think?
WU 7:10
E 7:10
E 7:40
S 8:40-10:20 (Did HTTJ but maybe it was unnecessary, not much happened)
* Yay long nap :D. Short A time though - 1:30
E 10:20
E 11:30
S 11:50-1:30 (Tried HTTJ but didn't work at first; bounced to sleep then HTTJ to deep sleep)
* Long nap again although required a lot of babysitting. Short A time again - 1:30. Maybe this means her second A time needs to be longer than the first?
E 1:30
E 2:45
S 3:10-4:00 (A=1:40 this time, but couldn't get this one to extend. I think her sleep cycles might be 50 minutes now)
E 4:30
E 5:15
E 7:00
S 7:30
* Thought we were going to get a CN in before BT but instead we had a 3:30 A time! What!! But she was happy unless we were trying to get her to sleep. Then she was mad. And she went right to sleep at 7:30 with only a little bit of bouncing.
* EDIT: Ugh, but she woke up at 8:00 and 1 hour later, we still haven't gotten her back down. First she screamed every time I tried to bounce her back down. Fed her and she seemed like she was going to sleep... but instead started rolling around and woke herself back up. :( :(
What do you do at night wakings if baby won't go back to sleep without nursing? She often wakes every 2 hours, sometimes even sooner, and she *doesn't* need to eat so often. Sometimes (rarely) patting or rubbing works to get her back to sleep. Sometimes I let her suck on my pinkie -- which is as bad as letting her nurse, right? Sometimes DH wakes up and bounces her. ...But more often, when her noises start to escalate, I just nurse her. Would it work to gradually decrease the length of these?
-
Sometimes I let her suck on my pinkie -- which is as bad as letting her nurse, right?
Would you consider a dummy/pacifier?
Travel does make things really hard - lots of changes for her and she'll need more support with falling asleep.
She may be a LO who will do better with shorter A time first up then lengthening through the day - you may have heard of 2-3-4...
Would it work to gradually decrease the length of these?
You could try - I think she's using the sucking to get back to sleep more than wanting food. I'd probably take the easy path for now given you're travelling again in a week :-/
I've been doing an extra feed before going down for naps in the hopes that (a) maybe it will make pre-nap ritual less of a cry-fest and (b) maybe if she eats more during the day, she'll wake less at night. What do you think?
Worth a try but keep in mind the potential for snacking and the issues with her not taking in full feeds through the day and making a habit of snacking through the night as well.
-
Worth a try but keep in mind the potential for snacking and the issues with her not taking in full feeds through the day and making a habit of snacking through the night as well.
Noooo I really don't want that!
We don't want to make a habit of a paci, although we tried using one for the first time on this trip. She couldn't keep it in very long and her hand control isn't good enough to keep it in.
What's the alternative? Get her up and bounce?
-
At the moment, I'd probably just feed for ease though letting her suck your finger is probably slightly better than feeding - at least she's not expecting food at every waking and reducing her intake in the day.
Do you travel regularly normally or is this unusual for you? If its normal to travel this often, probably worth establishing some familiar things you take with you everywhere you go - same sheets/blanket, same lovey, same pyjamas, can go a long way to helping her feel that she's in reasonably familiar surrounds and help her learn to settle. If you're rarely travelling, just do what you have to at the time to get through and then get back to normal when you get home. The overstimulation of being in a strange place, doing different activities, etc. can really throw sleep off and its worth it if you can go with the flow and get back on track when you return home.
Does she respond to shush/pat if you jump in a little earlier? She's less likely to self-settle when she's in an unfamiliar environment.
-
This is unusual, thank goodness.
It's so weird -- when I first started this thread, it was ages before shush-pat started working, and then it stopped again, started again... right now we're in a not-working phase. *Sometimes* it works for the first morning nap. But more often it just makes her mad. I don't know why =\
Yesterday, it was like a switch flipped and she suddenly started staying awake and happy ~2h+ (before her usual getting screaming-mad-tired). Wonder week 19?? I was able to extend her first nap to 1:20 with a lot of bouncing and in-arms holding, but the second two were only 40m. Her A times were 1:50, 2:05, 2:20, and 3:35 -- BT at 8:30 and wasn't too much trouble to put her down again when she woke up at 9:30. And then her night sleep was really good (by our standards)! Feeds at 2:30am and 5:30am. After the 5:30 feed she flipped onto her tummy and slept until 9:45am this morning!
Maybe if she keeps doing that... and then when she can control her fingers enough to suck her thumb... things will get better? Hope springs eternal.
EDIT: Today was odd. After the late WU, we had a long first A time (3:15) because we were out for brunch. First nap was only 1h -- was not able to get her to go back to sleep. The A time after that was, understandably, short (1:30) but the second nap was 2h! At the 1h mark I heard her cry out, but I took my time going there and by the time I got to the bedroom, she was asleep on her tummy again! Now she's been awake for 2h and counting but not yet tired. I expect she'll be tired soon though, probably around 3h or 3h30m.
-
*Sometimes* it works for the first morning nap. But more often it just makes her mad. I don't know why =\
I think she may be a touch UT - now she knows shush/pat is for sleep, she will be mad if you do it before she's tired enough for a nap.
Well, you seem to be able to go with the flow pretty well. Yay for the 2hr nap! I totally get that its a double edged sword though because you can't necessarily get anything done anyway because you don't know when she'll sleep/need help.
-
Sigh maybe this is the 4mo regression. Got her down at bt at 8:30 last night - wasn't even difficult. But she woke at 9:10 and we couldn't get her down until almost midnight. Every time we bounced her to sleep she'd wake up on transfer or a few minutes later. Tried shushing patting rubbing, everything. In the crib sometimes she'd be happy. She rolled a lot and did this thing where she uses one leg to slide herself across the crib - then she gets stuck and cries.
Today morning I woke her at 8:30. She is doing a lot worse at transfers these days. It used to be if we bounced her to drowsy, eyes closing, we could put her down and she'd settle. But now she screams when put down. She's 4.5 months old.
-
Yeah, there's a mental leap at 18-20 weeks which could be part of it, new skills can put a spanner in the works and maybe its the regression.
Hugs xx
-
Trying to just accept that it's probably gonna take some time before her sleep settles down. Working on trying to observe her tired cues better so I don't miss them.
Yesterday her first nap was 1h40m with no intervention! Hooray! Other two naps were short (45m, 40m).
Last night was not great, but at least better. At her BT feed (8pm), I gave her a pep talk that we were NOT going to eat every time she woke up tonight -- max every 3h. She faked us out by going to sleep at ~9pm but waking up 20-30minutes later. Just held her quietly or walked around the dark house until she got tired again. I think she wanted to nurse to sleep after some time, but I told her we had already discussed this. I was planning to hold out until 11pm, but figured 10:45 was close enough, and she went to sleep (bouncing) easily after. I was a little worried about what I'd do if she woke up before 3h, but what do you know - she woke up precisely every 3h... haha. So only twice. Not so bad. Still think I need to stretch it longer, because she's not that hungry when she wakes up.
-
I don't have any advice to offer but just wanted to say, I've been following your thread since the beginning even though it's really hard I totally appreciate your sharing everything you're going through because it is helping me work through the similar things. I'm a FTM too and my dd is I think, a week or so younger than yours. Also spirited. Although no two babies are the same, I really to empathise with you.
Sigh maybe this is the 4mo regression. Got her down at bt at 8:30 last night - wasn't even difficult. But she woke at 9:10 and we couldn't get her down until almost midnight. Every time we bounced her to sleep she'd wake up on transfer or a few minutes later.
This was me last night almost to the minute D: I know that doesn't help you at all but I just wanted to say thank you for your sharing and of course to becj86! I'm keeping everything crossed that we'll both get through the 4mths ok.
Working on trying to observe her tired cues better so I don't miss them.
I know you said ages ago on my thread that yawning was not a reliable sleepy cue - you were right! But just thought I'd say that I think you wrote a few posts ago that dd had started a new high pitched shriek? For my dd this is a (new) sign that she's really ready for sleep. Tonight she was beyond hyper in the bath, despite only being up for 45mins, and doing that lovely shriek so we only read one book and it was still tougher than normal to get her down to sleep.
-
Thanks ellieelmo! Been following your thread too! I'm so jelly of your 7 hour night stretch. :) But last night we had a 5 hour stretch! I woke up full of milk and it's been ages since that happened. On the minus side, we are two time zones over and it was from 1am to 6am. Couldn't get her to sleep earlier.
You know, the funny thing is she's stopped doing the shriek. Everything keeps changing. She used to calm down if I held her flailing limbs and now she haaates it.
-
I woke up full of milk and it's been ages since that happened.
ha! I know what you mean - it's both wonderful (because they've slept a good stretch) and uncomfortable! Good good luck - we've just had a rough few days, the constant changing is just SO tricky.
-
Finally back from travel!!!! Everything is totally messed up. We couldn't get ANY long naps. Lots of super short ones in the car where she wouldn't go back to sleep afterward. We got a nap in the stroller and in there wrap too. And got her to sleep rocking in arms without using yoga ball a few times. Absolutely no success with shush pat anywhere. Nursed to sleep all night - that 5 hour stretch was a fluke, sigh. Lots of suckling on my finger too, in car seat, plane, when overtired after too-long-and-stimulating visits with doting friends and relatives...
I want to get back to normal but I have no idea HOW with shush pat not working... transfers to crib are still touch and go. She cries when put down and will stop if I let her suck on my finger but I really don't want to make THAT a habit.
-
Give her a few days at home, things often come right on their own but if not, APOP naps at reasonable A times then gradually withdraw your assistance as you have done in the past. It shouldn't take as long this time as previously because she's got the skills there, they're just a bit rusty.
-
Tonight: we tried all sorts of APOPing -- bouncing to sleep, holding forEVER, nursing to sleep -- all worked to get her to sleep and all failed transfer to crib. D:
In the crib, she hated shush, she hated pat, she hated foot rubs, foot squeezes, lullabies, BUT THEN...
I put both hands on her chest and spoke softly to her whenever she took a breath between cries ("Good night, sweet Anne", "Good night, sweetheart", "Have a good sleep, sweetie", "You're just going to sleep, you can do it", repeat, repeat) ... and she gradually tapered off and went to sleep. It was slower than shush-pat used to be, but at least she didn't have to suckle to sleep! Maybe this is the new shush-pat? I seem to recall something about older babies finding the shh too stimulating? Well, one time could be just a coincidence. We'll see if it works again.
EDIT: Worked for 2 night wakings (was 3-4h since last feed, so didn't try for the other two) and for first nap today! No bouncing at all. Wow, never would have imagined it.
-
Awesome to have found something thats works for you and her :)
-
Update: two days ago was perhaps the most perfect day we've ever had. Two long naps (1h30m), one short (45m), 8pm BT -- all without bouncing! Night was reasonable too -- feeds at 11pm and 4am, restless in the a.m. until WU at 7am but didn't require nursing.
Yesterday was not as good -- not sure if that's because she made big progress toward crawling in the evening (got on her hands and knees and sort of wobbled forward) or because I had caffeine. But not TERRIBLE: 9pm BT required bouncing but only 3 NFs (10pm, 1am, 4am) and no wakings other than those. Turning up the white noise (or running a vacuum cleaner) seems to help.
:D Thank you for helping thru this whole journey, becj86!
-
Yay! I love it when people have good days :) Happy to help, just remember to keep adding to that A time gradually with average A times in mind so you don't get too stuck. Constant tweaking rather than infrequent big changes makes life much easier with a baby.
-
I know it's always going to go back and forth but... BT has not been good. It really feels like the BT feed wakes her up. She'll be showing all the tired signs - cranky, yawning, burrowing head - but then after her feed, she gets this weird second wind where she's alternating happy and crying. She won't go to sleep even with APOP. Can't leave her in her crib to play because she just rolls into her tummy and starts crying. We basically just have to wait it out and she gets OT. Is a BT feed necessary? Is it supposed to be immediately before putting down for sleep? I'm wondering if it'd be better to omit and do a dream feed an hour after she's gone to sleep, say.
-
What's your EASY? If you've fed within 1-2hr of BT, no need to do a BT feed if its just causing issues. The idea is to fill her right up so you get a long stretch but if its not working for you and her then find something that does. Totally reasonable to try a DF 3-4hr after she goes to sleep (1hr after will likely disrupt her sleep). I'd probably see how she goes without a BT feed or a DF for a week or so first then try DF if you're getting too many NFs.
-
Here was the day where I felt like the BT feed messed things up:
WU 8:00
E 8:15
S 9:50-11:30 (! long nap! woohoo!)
E 11:40
S 1:45-2:35 (could be worse...)
E 2:40
S 4:30-5:30 (this one never goes long anyway)
E 5:40
E 7:30
S 9:10 (7:30 was supposed to be the BT feed but it was Not Happening)
Yesterday, I tried omitting the BT feed -- she woke up from her last nap at 5:15, took her last feed at 6:10, and she closed her eyes for BT at 8:00. I had to rock her to sleep, but she wasn't able to put herself to sleep and I didn't want to stretch the last A further. Unfortunately, she woke up at 8:35. So maybe I should have let her stay awake longer? Or maybe she was OT because it had been a day of short naps? Anyway, I fed her without thinking... and then she was up till 10:30.
We'll give it a go again tonight, and not feed her if she wakes up early... Also will try harder to extend A times. They were short yesterday, but she kept falling asleep before I put her in her crib! For second nap, she fell asleep while I was putting her in her sleep sack. Third she fell asleep in the sling (to be fair, I was vacuuming).
EDIT: I noticed the "perfect day" was right after getting home from a week of travel. Maybe she was just more properly tired??
EDIT2:
Also... these NFs are really starting to wear on me. I'd be happy doing two -- say, 11pm and 4am -- but doing three (i.e. 10pm, 1am, 4am) or four (i.e. 11pm, 1am, 3am, 6am) leaves me really tired during the day. It's not the feeding that's the problem -- she takes a quick feed and goes right back to sleep.
It's the interrupted sleep. I used to need 8-9hrs a night. :(
Would delaying a feed when she wakes up help or hurt? i.e. last night she woke at 2, I bounced/rocked/held/let her use my finger as a paci until 3am and then I fed her. She was sort of sleeping for that hour, but very lightly -- if I stopped doing whatever, she started crying again. It was sooo tiring, but if it would help after a few nights, I'll do it. I don't know if she's really hungry or not, but feeding is the only thing that gets her to stay asleep. She next woke at 6am and I was too tired to try to hold her off till 7am -- I fed her.
-
Yesterday, I tried omitting the BT feed -- she woke up from her last nap at 5:15, took her last feed at 6:10, and she closed her eyes for BT at 8:00. I had to rock her to sleep, but she wasn't able to put herself to sleep and I didn't want to stretch the last A further. Unfortunately, she woke up at 8:35. So maybe I should have let her stay awake longer? Or maybe she was OT because it had been a day of short naps? Anyway, I fed her without thinking... and then she was up till 10:30.
Ok, so 2:45 A time off a catnap is too much in all likelihood and so you're getting OT waking in the early hours of the night.
S 4:30-5:30 (this one never goes long anyway)E 5:40E 7:30S 9:10 (7:30 was supposed to be the BT feed but it was Not Happening)
Even this - I'd be trying to have her asleep at 7:30 latest rather than feeding at 7:30. She's probably OT by then.
How old is she now? I think she needs more in the way of A time again.
S 1:45-2:35 (could be worse...)
Yes, but is UT.
Would delaying a feed when she wakes up help or hurt? i.e. last night she woke at 2, I bounced/rocked/held/let her use my finger as a paci until 3am and then I fed her. She was sort of sleeping for that hour, but very lightly -- if I stopped doing whatever, she started crying again. It was sooo tiring, but if it would help after a few nights, I'll do it. I don't know if she's really hungry or not, but feeding is the only thing that gets her to stay asleep. She next woke at 6am and I was too tired to try to hold her off till 7am -- I fed her.
It can help but often doesn't. Its more that she's awake and knows she feeds when she wakes at night than that she is waking hungry (with those 4 NF nights at least, not the 2NF ones - those are normal). Best for you to feed and get her and you back to sleep asap and work on increasing those A times, especially the first one.
-
She'll be 5 mos on Saturday. I keep trying to extend her A time but she keeps falling asleep early on me.
Today our first nap was long (yay!), second required minimal bouncing to extend a second cycle (a touch UT), and third required bouncing to sleep and was short. The last A time after third nap -- it's like she just doesn't show tired signs...? Is that a thing? For her first nap, say, she'll start showing tired signs and when I put her down, she just goes straight to sleep by herself. Same for second nap, but she sometimes takes a bit longer to fall asleep. Sometimes I pull out the handheld vacuum and that does it. Third nap, I'll often need to bounce her -- even though it's been a long A time and she's clearly tired, she just won't settle without help. Is this pattern typical, even with long naps? What does it mean?
And then BT... Are BT tired signs different? I'm trying to wait for her to be properly tired, because otherwise she just gets mad when I try to put her to sleep. Generally for naps, I pop her in the sling when she gets too cranky to play and just walk around the house doing stuff. I vacuum if A time is dragging long. When she starts yawning / rubbing her eyes / nodding off, I whisk her off to bed. This is not working at BT because she never gets sleepy...
-
it's like she just doesn't show tired signs...? Is that a thing?
Yes, often with overstimulation. For us, it was DH coming home that really unravelled things. DS was just so excited to have daddy home. For other, its just witching hour (which is usually more than one hour) and things won't go to plan.
-
Ah... yes... Daddy typically comes home during or right after the last nap. Plus, we need to eat dinner. What did you do to work around that?
Yesterday, she woke up from her third nap at 6:15, and DH came home then too. Fed at 6:45. She got cranky around 7:15 so we put her in PJs and tried to put her to sleep (APOPing) but she just Would Not Go. As soon as we stopped APOPing she was happy again. Tried again every 20 minutes or so, and each time she got upset when we started APOPing and happy as soon as we stopped. It's tough because the whole time, we can't put her down on her play mat -- if we do, she INSISTS on trying to crawl and getting super worked up and unhappy because she can't. So we alternate holding her. Finally at 8:30 I was able to rock her to sleep in the wrap. She woke up as soon as I got her out and was super mad, so I bounced her down again and held her for 20 minutes. She did one cycle and woke up at 9:30, could not APOP her back down, so DH took her in the Ergo. I think it was about an hour before she would go to sleep again.
On the plus side, we've had several days in a row now where the first A time was ~1:50-2:00 and she went right to sleep for first nap when put down! Sometimes requires a bit of holding until she's relaxed/drowsy enough, but no bouncing. Huge progress for us! So even though things are falling apart at BT and third nap, I'm trying to focus on how much things have improved :) Although I would love another one of those perfect "nearly-independent sleep" days soon ;)
-
What did you do to work around that?
Lots of play with daddy and lots of tight hugs. You could try time in the ergo with Daddy when he gets home - maybe for a 15-30 min walk while you finish off/make dinner in peace... Reasonably firm massage as part of the BT routine helped too. I'd go for a 1:30-1:45 A time for the last one. I know daddy probably loves to get DD really happy and excited when he gets home but that's counterproductive. See what you can work out as a routine that works for you as a family :)
-
Haha of course after I post, we have a bad morning. My own fault though. I let her sleep in cause of how late the night was, then we were out at a garage sale and the farmers market. Probably overstimulated. By the time she showed tired signs it was too late.
-
Update: shush pat still gone, but independent sleep is making a visit again! First two naps today, I put her down and while I was putting on her sleep sack, she relaxed and started sucking her hands. So I slid her over to her crib and she went right off to sleep within 5 minutes. Score! But both naps were short! Why? I thought if she was sleeping independently, we must be on target with A time? I can't figure out a pattern for short/long naps... it just seems like a coin flip. And when we have all short naps, BT gets tricky - usually requires fourth nap, but then she doesn't sleep properly until late. Here was today's EASY. What to do with all short naps like this?
WU 7:55
E 8:00
S 10:05-10:40 (independent sleep)
E 11:05
S 12:40-1:30 (independent sleep)
E 1:30 (small)
E 2:50 (went out, lots of people, had meltdown, maybe earlier feed wasn't enough)
S 3:15-4:15 (fell asleep in car, transferred to crib without waking)
E 4:50
S 6:35-?
Here we are... I'm expecting this to be a nap and real BT around 9pm. But it's already 7:25 and she hasn't woken... I wonder if she's actually gone to sleep-sleep? Or should I wake her to avoid real BT going too late?
EDIT of course she woke up right after I posted. See next post :)
-
I thought if she was sleeping independently, we must be on target with A time?
Not necessarily. I think she's probably a short-WD kiddo, she's probably telling you that by going to sleep with the first couple of cues you give her that its nap time. She's learning what the process is that leads to sleep and doesn't need as much help getting to sleep but maybe just try starting that WD process 5min later that you have been and see if that helps with nap length. Definitely the A times you're posting here are shorter than average for her age.
Here we are... I'm expecting this to be a nap and real BT around 9pm. But it's already 7:25 and she hasn't woken... I wonder if she's actually gone to sleep-sleep? Or should I wake her to avoid real BT going too late?
I'd leave her to sleep. It may backfire but you may find she sleeps much better.
-
Ended up being a long(?) catnap:
S 6:35-7:30
Started BT routine right away
E 8:00 (part of BT routine)
E 8:45 (routine finished but not sleepy... maybe still hungry?)
E 9:05 (i give up... try nursing to sleep... didn't work)
S 9:30 (it required bouncing followed by HTTJ)
BT routine is:
20 mins walk outside
Take a bath
Change into pjs
Feed
Read a couple bedtime books
Hold in wrap and tidy up the bedroom
Lay on bed and chat softly about our day and how it is bedtime now
We are gonna cut the bath though cause it seems to agitate her. Been watching infant massage videos...
-
Today was all short naps again :( These days are brutal.
I don't understand how to extend her A time... I was already keeping her awake as long as she'd stand it. If I push it longer, she just cries for the extra minutes and then she won't self-settle when I start the nap routine... I end up having to bounce or grab her arms and hold them till she starts sucking her thumb, which is kinda hard while she's flailing. And then she sometimes wakes back up after falling asleep. Is this supposed to happen??
Today's EASY was terrible:
WU 7:30
E 7:30
S 9:35-10:20 (had to bounce, then help her find thumb)
E 10:30
E 12:00 (was super upset, I'm not sure why)
S 12:50-1:35 (helped her find thumb)
E 2:00
S 3:35-4:20 (helped her find thumb)
E 4:30
E 6:20 (decided to try to do an abbreviated BT routine rather than a nap)
S 7:30-7:35 (started trying after feed, but only succeeded at 7:30... except not)
E 7:35 (trying to get her to go back to sleep)
So here we are. It's 8pm and she's been up since 4:20 and she won't go to sleep. No bath during BT routine this time. I guess she needed that 4th nap after all.
-
How much are you pushing those A times? I think these 2hr A times are becoming habit for her so she's falling asleep quite easily but she is actually UT and that's why you're getting 45min naps. She can likely go much longer than 2hr given she's still taking a 45min nap at the end of the day with 2hr A times and only 45min naps. I suspect given she's 5 months, you're likely to be needing closer to 2.5hr A time to get restorative naps.
And then she sometimes wakes back up after falling asleep. Is this supposed to happen??
Is she a bit OS from the upset with the flailing, etc. before falling asleep do you think?
-
How much are you pushing those A times? I think these 2hr A times are becoming habit for her so she's falling asleep quite easily but she is actually UT and that's why you're getting 45min naps.
Hmmm I think you're right. I was only pushing a little - actually, times still ended up at 2:05, 2:20, 2:00.
Today's schedule is crazy because we had visitors and went out to visit friends and had a catnap in the wrap. But A times so far have been 2:25 and 2:30... and 45m between 15m catnap and coming home to take a real nap. The first nap after 2:25A was still only 35 minutes though. Maybe need a few days to adjust.
-
Yes, a few days to adjust and maybe a bit excited with different places and people.
-
Today went better, but BT is still a struggle. I got her down following the BT routine at 8:10 without too much trouble. But she woke up within 10 minutes. Daddy went and bounced her back down, but again, she woke up after a few minutes. She's still up now (9:45pm). It's the same way she always wakes up these days: she rolls onto her tummy and instead of sleeping starts doing pushups and crying. :( I don't know what happened. A couple weeks ago, I'd often find her sleeping on her tummy -- some of her best naps were that way. But now, she always wakes up at 45minutes turned onto her tummy, and later in the day she often wakes up soon after being put down, same thing. Note that she can only roll back-to-tummy, she still can't roll tummy-to-back. (Well, she's done it a few isolated times, but nothing regular.)
We've rearranged the BT routine based on what's been stimulating, i.e. changing into PJs turned out to be stimulating -- something about pulling stuff over her head, I think -- so we moved it up to the beginning:
1. Change into PJs and night diaper
2. Go for a walk around the neighborhood
3. Sit in the rocking chair and talk about our day quietly
4. Sit in the rocking chair and read Goodnight Moon (will cut this -- she seemed to perk up at the book)
5. Sit in the rocking chair and say good night to all the stuff in our room.
6. Turn down the lights and do bedtime feed (she seemed to perk up at the feed tonight, but I'm not sure about cutting it, because other nights she's gotten really mellow after it)
7. Turn on white noise, turn off lights, draw curtains
8. Put on sleep sack
9. Bounce + sing to sleep -- she falls asleep and then I put her down. I don't think we can do independent sleep for BT yet.
-
4. Sit in the rocking chair and read Goodnight Moon (will cut this -- she seemed to perk up at the book)
Yes, this was an issue for us too - you can still read to her of course but just at a different time of day and perhaps after a feed at the beginning of A time.
Looks good. You are best placed to tell whether to keep or stop the BT feed.
But now, she always wakes up at 45minutes turned onto her tummy, and later in the day she often wakes up soon after being put down, same thing. Note that she can only roll back-to-tummy, she still can't roll tummy-to-back.
This sounds like she's working on rolling the other way - keep up the tummy time in the day to give her plenty of time to practise while she's awake. It won't stop her doing this whilst sleeping but it can help the phase pass more quickly. You will likely have similar issues when she's figuring out crawling, standing and walking :)
-
You will likely have similar issues when she's figuring out crawling, standing and walking
We're having a double whammy, I suppose, because she's also working on crawling. Today was another day of all-short naps. We've had A times up to 2:15-2:30 for the last few days, but doesn't seem to help with extending her naps. I guess it's because of the crawling part? Sigh but she's been working on it for over a week! She's getting better at getting herself up on hands and knees but still not close to actually crawling.
Last Thursday was the last time we had a good long nap. Since then it's all been short and/or required a lot of work to extend. Is it normal for these developmental phases to last so long?
-
She'd be coming up for 6 months now, yes? A times at 6 months are usually 2:45 to 3hr average with 3-2 nap transition either done or in progress.
Last Thursday was the last time we had a good long nap. Since then it's all been short and/or required a lot of work to extend. Is it normal for these developmental phases to last so long?
You mean about 5 days? If so, yes normal to be this long, generally 1-2 weeks.
-
No, 12 days. Yesterday I was able to extend a nap though!
She'll be 6 months in another 3 weeks, so still closer to 5 months.
Still having trouble with BT. It's totally different from nap time, where when we start pushing A, she melts down into a ball of tiredness and just needs to sleep. At BT she easily goes 3-4 hours and no amount of APOPing will get her to sleep earlier. We do the BT routine aiming for a reasonable BT (1.5-2 hours A, usually) but it never happens. Maybe we need to cut the third nap and just let her do her long A thing??
EDIT: Two long naps today, and a catnap, but still no go on BT. It's 9pm and she woke up from "first bedtime" (8pm) at 8:40pm. I suppose second bedtime will be around 10pm. :\ She gets about 10 hours of night sleep and 3-4 hours of day sleep. Isn't that way too little??
-
Isn't that way too little??
Its I think the lowish end of normal but if she's happy and developing fine, its not really something to worry about.
At BT she easily goes 3-4 hours
I wonder if she's OT... is there a period of fussiness then she's happy and almost overexcited thereafter? Maybe just watch and see if there's a trough somewhere in that time - that might be the time to then consider for BT if its reasonably consistent time of day or A time from last nap.
-
Yesterday: 3 naps, each 35 minutes. A times were 2:15, 2:25, 2:40 -- and then BT was 8:00! No second BT! She woke at 8:40 as usual but I was able to get her to go back to sleep. Had to nurse/cosleep to do it, though. But worth it? She slept 11.5 hours! With wakeups, of course, but it's still a new record! So she really seems to be doing a total of 13 hours, spread out between naps and night sleep...?
I'm a little concerned that she's not self-soothing any more -- either I have to bring her thumb to her mouth, or she's showing a preference for my pinky over her thumb =\
Ah, there she is, awake again -- 45 minutes, right on schedule. Sounds happy though. BBL.
-
Hmmm... the longer nights is good :)
Not sure wrt naps, how have the last few days been?
-
Last couple days have been a bit more "normal" for naps: 1 long nap, 1 ~45 minutes, and the last nap is usually shorter (30-35m). But she hasn't self-settled for any of them. She's either sucked my finger or nursed to sleep. DH and I have decided it's time to cut the bouncing/sucking props before they get any worse. Today, for her first nap, it took a long time (30mins) of crying to get her to sleep. She woke after 45 minutes, unhappy, and we were able to get her back down by the same method, only 5-10 minutes or so. She'll probably wake up soon...
We're doing something of a cross between PU/PD and sh-pat. PU/PD seems to presuppose that you are able to calm your child by picking them up... which is not the case for us. So we pick up occasionally if she's really screaming just to reassure her that we are still here for her. I found that she tends to calm if I sit her up, but I think that's because it stops her legs from flailing. So now we are mostly holding her legs down, patting or placing a hand on her chest, and speaking reassuringly to her. It's a lot of crying, but (so far) does eventually work, which is why we're doing it on a weekend when DH is home. I couldn't do it all day by myself.
-
Sounds like a good plan and good that's you're starting with DH home to help.
-
First nap was the worst. Second nap was easier, only 5 minutes of crying, no screaming, but didn't extend. Third nap went down with no crying but didn't extend. BT went down at 9:20 but woke at 10. Last feed had been 8pm so didn't think she was hungry but she wouldn't go down. At 11pm I fed her and then she went to sleep. NW at 3am - tried for a few minutes, then fed -- and 6:20 -- tried until 6:45, then fed. And then she was awake for the day. We'll see how today goes.
-
Day 2: First nap went down with only a little fussing, had to hold her legs, woke happy after 45 mins. Second nap fell asleep while walking to bedroom. Woke unhappy @45m, took 20mins of hand on chest and legs, talking, etc to resettle. Slept another full 45-50 minutes before I woke her to go out. Third nap went down easy, woke happy after 40 minutes. Fourth nap (aka BT#1) was a little bit of fussing, not too bad. Was hoping for it to be BT, but no such luck: we still ended up with BT#2 at 10pm.
Night 2: Not as good as night#1. Fed at 3 (again) and 6:30 (again). But she also woke up at 1am and 5am and took several minutes to settle without feeds.
Day 3 (today): First nap -- was intending to just put her in her crib for a minute while I got out some stuff, but she started trying to self-settle. Once I turned the lights out and turned on white noise, she fell asleep in a few minutes with just my hand on her chest. I tried holding her legs but she seemed to be trying to push my hands away, so I stopped and she was able to stop flailing without it. Woke @50m not-quite-happy but not sad enough to keep sleeping. Second nap: fell asleep the second I put her down (I had been vacuuming just before), stirred @35m but self-settled for a full 2-hour nap! EDIT: Third nap: self-settled again! Slept 55m.
Night 3: BT at 9:50 (I was out and DH couldn't get her to sleep) required me to keep hands on her & talk to her, but she actually stayed asleep! NF at 1:30a, 5a -- tried getting her to settle without a feed, but didn't work -- hoping she'll drop one of these soon. WU ~8am.
One issue has been that her A times have been all over the place. But that's when she starts rubbing her eyes and yawning and burrowing her head -- we're following her cues because that seems to help with the self-settling thing, and I don't want to push her into OT. We'll try extending As again once she's better at falling asleep.
Another issue is the 6:30am "night feed". It's too early for wakeup, especially with her late bedtimes! But we can't get her to go back to sleep without a feed. Is it normal to have a night feed so close to wakeup?
-
Is it normal to have a night feed so close to wakeup?
As they move towards dropping a NF, sometimes it just is close to WU and you just have to do a topup feed at WU to keep the day going properly.
-
Day 5: WU at 8:15, self-settled for first nap, second nap fell asleep in car but self-settled on transfer to crib, hand on hip for third nap to prevent rolling. BT was meh though - thought we were getting it at 7:25, but it turned out to be a short catnap. Real BT was 9:45, required both hands on her, talking soothingly.
Night 5: Woke at 1a and 2a but I was able to settle her with a hand on her. Fed at 3a and 6:30am.
Day 6: WU at 8:00, self-settled for all three naps! But BT :( Got her to sleep at 8:35pm -- was hoping that by getting closer to her other BTs, it would stick... nope. She slept for an hour, was up 9:30-11, happy at first and then increasingly sad and then screaming. Fed her at 11 and then she went down for the night.
Night 6: Woke for feed at 3:30am, woke at 6a but I was able to get her to go back to sleep without feeding. She woke again at 7a, so I decided to make that WU & E. Am hoping the earlier WU will help us pull BT together tonight.
I just don't understand why she won't STAY asleep at BT. Everything talks about doing earlier bedtimes, etc, but she starts her day between 7 and 8am and she wakes from her third nap between 5pm and 5:30pm, so we can't exactly do a 6pm or 6:30pm BT -- she isn't tired enough until at least 7 or 7:30pm. She won't sleep when she's not tired! That's the mistake I was making when I first started this thread... She often goes down pretty easily at 7:30ish (self-settles or settles with only a little help), but she won't STAY asleep. Yesterday, when she slept for an hour before waking, I was so hoping... but no. And the second settling at ~10pm is always a lot harder; it's usually been a couple hours since her last feed, and sometimes she just won't do it until she's fed again. :\ The one time she's stayed asleep this week was Monday, when she woke from her third nap at 5pm and didn't go to sleep until nearly 10pm. But she stayed asleep that time. I was gone for a couple hours in the evening and she had Daddy to herself, could that have affected things?
-
She often goes down pretty easily at 7:30ish (self-settles or settles with only a little help), but she won't STAY asleep.
This is something that you actually have to tackle. By getting her up and behaving as if she's had a nap, she gets that message and will continue to wake. As soul-destroying as it is sitting in a darkened room with a baby who wants to play because that's what she has always done at 9pm, you actually can only address this by treating that WU as a NW. No lights, minimal interaction. If she's happy, leave her in the cot. If she's crying, comfort her and help her fall back to sleep (use your sleepy phrase/BT song, etc.) but don't play, don't take her out into light. Once she gets the message that it is night time from when you put her down at 7:30/8pm then she will be more likely to sleep from then.
-
Alrighty. We're just gonna go for it from here out. Last night she went to sleep around 8, woke up at 8:30, got her to settle for another 15 mins but then she was up again. So kept her in her crib, let her kick around if she was happy, put a hand on her and told her it was bedtime if she was sad. I fed her at 9 since she had fallen asleep without a BT feed. She kicked around and then started getting really fussy around 10:45, so I fed her and she went to sleep. (I was mostly dozing for those 2 hours... I need more sleep than this baby apparently.)
She woke up this morning at 9am! :/ we normally let her sleep until she naturally wakes up but this is getting silly... we should probably start picking a time to just wake her up? Oh but I love sleeping until I naturally wake up, it's such a lovely feeling. She's so happy when she wakes up like that. She does seem to self-regulate to 10-10.5 hours of night sleep. Sigh.
-
Yes, you do have to realise though that she is a baby and isn't used to day/night cycles as we are. In the spirit of starting as you mean to go on, it is worth waking her at your chosen time, I'd suggest perhaps a time you know will still be ok when you have to get out of the house for daycare/kindy/school or one that works for your family all week (babies don't know to sleep in on weekends), and taking her outside to show her the sun - great for helping her regulate her day/night rhythm. That will also help with the bedtime falling asleep bit.
What you can do to make the waking up less painful for her is to watch for when she stirs and just wake her gently then so its in the lightest part of her sleep and least disrupting to her sleep cycle.
Well done on sticking it out in the dark all that time last night, keep at it for a few more nights and it should start to pay off. You might find she wakes earlier in the am on her own if she stays asleep or that she does indeed sleep 11-12hr nights when she goes to sleep and stays asleep at BT.
-
Yep we will keep working on it. Last night she ate at 9:30pm and went right to sleep after. But she woke for 3 night feeds, 12a, 2:30a, 5:30a. I couldn't get her to sleep without feeding and especially those first two seemed early. :( She woke herself up at 7:30a, which is probably the WU time we will be enforcing.
-
There probably will be a bit of disruption to the rest of her night pattern until she's more used to it. I think it will revert once she's more settled. You're essentially shifting her night earlier by a few hours.
-
We've decided we will do BT feed/pajamas around 8pm and enforce BT at 9pm if she doesn't go to sleep earlier.
Yesterday was a day of all-short naps (woke up happy though), followed by a looong evening A (4pm-9pm). She went right to sleep at 9:10pm. Only two NW (feeds): 1am, 5am. I feel a lot more rested today! Today morning she woke up at 8:10am. We started trying to wake her gently at 7:50am (turn off white noise, turn up lights, gently shake her shoulder), but it took a bit. Possibly we should try harder tomorrow.
I guess I'm a little concerned my presence might be becoming a BT prop -- I go to sleep when she does, and she doesn't seem to settle until I'm in bed next to her, not nursing, but just there, usually with a hand on her. Should I worry? But I'm so happy she went to sleep at BT with no nursing & no follow-up wakings! And I'll be there when she wakes up in the night, so is it so bad?
EDIT: Also-- starting to try to extend A, but it's actually harder now that she self-settles! When she's tired, she'll stick her thumb in her mouth and go to sleep in my arms. (I'm usually carrying her toward the end of A-time because she wants cuddles.) And for her first A, it's always 2 hours or less. Second A sometimes gets up to 2h30m, but often it's less, and we're supposed to be pushing 3h by now... Should I try to introduce some more stimulating activities? Would that help? Unfortunately, going anywhere by car isn't great because she always falls asleep in her carseat. Walking sometimes puts her to sleep too. =\
-
It does sound like you might be setting up a prop with having to be beside her before she'll go to sleep. Is it something you would prefer not to continue long-term?
Its hard to know re: extending A time. Probably you need to be a bit more interesting to extend the A... talking to her, showing her things? I'm not sure there, my LO is an energiser bunny, I could count the times he's gone to sleep without prompting in the last 6 years on one hand.
-
Right, long term we want to move that bedtime back to a more reasonable hour.
Two more nights of 12a/3a/6a feeds. Two nights ago BT wasn't great - lots of crying between 9 and 10 when she fell asleep. Last night was fine although off schedule - BT feed at 9 and then she only cried a little before going to sleep at 9:30. I think she is hungry, though, because she eats on both sides (fusses if I try to give her just one) and she's still hungry for WU milk in the morning.
Is t possible it's hunger preventing her from doing longer A times? She often needs 3 hourly feeds when her naps go short, so maybe she just can't do more than 2:30 awake before she gets hungry?
-
It is possible. You can try a topup feed about an hour after the first E of each set so its more EAEAS. Eventually those topup feeds become time for solids...
She may be in a growth spurt at the moment if its particularly bad right now.
Who's waiting for who to be ready for bed? You waiting for DD or DD waiting for you? Just thinking she's almost certainly OT at BT with A times that long and from all the screaming and the waking shortly after going to sleep for the night. If you can get her down after a shorter A time, it will probably help a lot.
-
Well, we start trying around 8pm but if she's happy, we leave the nightlight on. 9pm is our hard lights out, happy or no. She has never in her life stayed asleep when we put her to bed before 8 and we have tried many times. I think she just needs to adjust to an earlier bedtime more gradually. Last night she fell asleep at 8, but then she was awake and playing in her crib 8:30-9:30ish (don't know exactly as I fell asleep before her, I think.). She slept until 1:30 (feed) and woke up for a feed at 4am. At 6am she woke up for the day. So today's schedule has been quite odd :)
On the plus side, she hasn't been screaming for that interval before she really sleeps - she mostly plays in her crib and sometimes fusses. And it's definitely getting shorter.
EDIT: A good night! Down at 8:15 with no trouble, fed at 9:30 and went back to sleep until 1:30 and 5;00 night feeds. Woke at 8:15. A new record!
-
Yay for a good night. Now is a good opportunity to push those A times a bit given she's had a long night.
Does she sleep with the nightlight on? If you have it off through the night, I'd put it off at when you put her down for the night even if that is 8pm so if she wakes, she thinks its night time.
-
Yes, her A times have been (inconsistently and slowly) extending... yesterday, we had a morning A of 2:45 followed by a long nap! She's self-settling for all her naps now and usually self-settles for BT too. It's only when she wakes up an hour after BT that we have to help settle her.
"Nightlight" wasn't quite the right word, I guess. It's the light on our nightstand that we leave on the dimmest setting while she winds down in her crib. We turn it off if she's settling to sleep, and we turn it off at 9pm, settling or not. Also, just to clarify, she doesn't spend the whole evening with NO naps at all -- she usually gets a 10 minute CN or two in the car or in the carrier. We've just observed that if we let her take a full 40-minute nap after 4pm, we have more trouble at BT.
Today has been weird -- she's had short A times but is on her second long nap despite that. ??? Quite odd...
Here was yesterday's EASY -- I think we're transitioning to 2 naps... seems like her natural rhythm might be 8-8?
WU & E 8:15
E 9:30
S 11:00-12:40 (1h40m after A=2:45)
E 12:50
S 3:00-3:40 (40m after A=2:20)
E 3:50
E 7:00
BT 8:30 (after A=4:50, with a 10 minute CN in the car)
NF 9:30, didn't resettle to sleep until almost 10:30. Might be dealing with a prop here -- DH was trying to resettle her 10:00-10:30, but she settled quickly once I came in.
NF 2:00
NF 4:30 (half feed? I think I fell asleep)
NF 6:30
WU 8:00 (still ate well at 8:15, despite all the night feeds)
-
BT 8:30 (after A=4:50, with a 10 minute CN in the car) NF 9:30, didn't resettle to sleep until almost 10:30.
This is far more likely OT rather than a prop. There could be a prop component but OT is probably the main issue at play here. Even a 30min CN rather than 10min would likely help.
-
Wouldn't we have more trouble putting her to sleep the first time if she were OT? She's self-settling when she first goes to sleep... I'm hopeful this won't last too long, though -- we're extending out the daytime A's and naps and we're slowly moving her BT up, so that evening A is getting shorter and shorter.
Yesterday we had two long naps! Weirdly spaced, but long. But at BT again, DH was home alone for that first night resettle and she didn't go until I got home. I ended up feeding her because she was just soooo stressed and upset (and by that time it had been over 2.5 hours since last E).
WU 8:00
E 8:15
E 9:45
S 10:00-11:20 (1:20 nap on 2:00 A time. She fell asleep eating, oddly)
E 12:30
S 12:45-3:15 (2:30 nap on 1:25 A time, again fell asleep eating!?)
E 3:45
E 6:20 (then Mommy went to see her friends)
S 7:30 (Daddy put her to sleep without too much trouble after 3:45 A time)
NW/F 8:15-9:15 (DH tried to resettle until Mommy got home to screaming baby at 8:45. Mommy tried to resettle without feeding, but she kept calming down and then getting upset again. After a feed, she went to sleep until first NF at 1:30am)
-
Sometimes when OT, they crash then wake again and have a hard time settling.
Fell asleep eating milk or solids?
-
Milk - solids are still just occasional tastes right now.
-
Very common - milk has sleepy substances in it.
-
Hullo! Been a while, so just posting an update.
- She's been waking up between 8-9am and mommy is too tired to wake her earlier. We don't have any pressing need to do an earlier BT/WU, so we'll just work with this.
- A time by itself doesn't seem to affect her long/short naps. Long A times (~3h) have generally led to short naps. Short A times (1.5-2h) have led to long naps.
- The extra E seems to correlate to long naps, but no guarantees. Today morning was a fail, for example. E right before nap seems to lead to long naps, but don't want to make a habit of nursing-to-nap. Playing around with the timing of the extra E now.
- The earlier we move bedtime, the worse the first NW gets. With a late BT we either get no early NW at all or a short/happy one. I'm suspecting she just prefers a later wakeup+bedtime like her mommy...
- Still doing 2-3 NFs
-
Sounds like you're relaxing into it a bit even though there's still plenty of uncertainty.
I'm suspecting she just prefers a later wakeup+bedtime like her mommy...
Much as I had to just be ok with DS having a really early WU like me ;)
-
Yep trying to just go with the flow. Still getting 3 night feeds, 12-1 / 3-4 / 6-7, followed by WU 8-9. Last night was unusual in that she didn't eat at her 4:30 NW... when I pulled her out to feed her, she cuddled up and went to sleep. So we might be cosleeping a bit more.
She's started sitting up in bed. Seems like the new version of getting up on hands and knees -- she always used to do that while she tried to settle. If we let her get to her tummy, it's up to hands and knees and then sitting. And crying. The funny thing is, she also sleeps well on her tummy - if she's half asleep and rolls to her tummy, she settles there and sleeps. It's only during that initial going-to-sleep... what is going on? Not sleepy enough?
She's crawling and sitting up during the day while she plays. A times are 2:30-3:15 usually but don't seem to correlate with short/long naps. Extra E really is necessary I think - otherwise after a long A she wakes from her nap early, hungry. Unfortunate because I don't want her to be a snacker and makes it hard for me to get away for any length of time. Still mostly just tasting solids. She's close to 6.5 months now.
-
4:30 NW for cuddle could be that she's cold...
It's only during that initial going-to-sleep... what is going on? Not sleepy enough?
Yes, I suspect she may not be sleepy enough. Maybe just keep a log of A times and when this is happening. Could be due to OT too if she's struggling to settle.
-
Yea I was wondering if she could be cold, but her head is always sweaty. Maybe warm? But the rest of her seems a good temp.
Tonight is not good. Two naps, second was a good nap: 3:00-4:30 so I was feeling hopeful. Started BT wind down at 7:00, fed at 7:30, asleep at 8:00. But then woke at 8:40 and would not resettle, got gradually more and more upset. She was trying, though, sucking her thumb quietly for a minute before crying, repeat repeat, getting more intense over time. At 10:00 (screaming) I broke down and fed her. It's 10:20 and she's still awake but at least not screaming any more. I didn't think she's OT ... she had plenty of opportunities to sleep earlier if she had wanted to but she didn't. A=3:30 seems within reason and even then she took some time to sleep. Also she was pretty happy post-feed - that wouldn't happen if OT right?
Edit: she fell asleep at 11 when I went to bed. Mostly happy with bouts of fussing from 10-11. NF 1:30, 4:30, WU 7:30.
-
Maybe having you there is a prop...
-
If only it had worked 8:40-10:00! I was there the whole time but she still got screaming upset.
Today she had shots so I expect everything to be wonky for a few days.
-
Does shushing or singing or holding a hand on her help when she's trying to get to sleep but not succeeding?
Hopefully there's not too much disruption after her shots!
-
Nope :( usually putting a hand on her helps, but on those days the only "fix" is a feed.
She actually had her best sleep ever after shots... went to sleep at 7pm and woke at 8am. Of course, we had to give her Tylenol and hold her to sleep...
The day after we had two long naps! But one of them I was so tired I lay by her and napped myself.
We seem to be converging on 2 naps and ~3h A times. But BT is regressing. Last night had her thru bt routine and ready for sleep at 8:20 (3h A) but she had a second wind and wanted to play. Tried putting her down multiple times but it just made her upset. DH is out of town and I can't handle extended crying right now so I turned on the nightstand light and read a book while she crawled around and was happy. At 9:45 I turned off the light and laid her down again and this time she went to sleep. That's A=4:30 ! I feel like she was UT at 3h but that seems unlikely ???
-
Yes. Second wind suggests she was OT. Maybe try something shorter before BT.
-
=\ We keep trying different lengths of A time before BT, but it seems like no matter what we do, she ends up staying awake until ~10pm, give or take some. For example, yesterday her second (and last) nap was 4:40-5:20pm. BT feed at 6:45 and started trying to put her down around 7:15 (~2h A time). No success. She was happy and playing in her crib after the feed, then gradually got fussy. Fed again at 8:50 and she was happy again for another round of playing - and finally went to sleep around 10pm. So she was definitely not OT when we first started trying to put her down, would not sleep, got OT, would not sleep some more, and finally crashed. She stayed asleep until her usual night feeds.
Since we seem stuck with OT right now, what is the right protocol for an OT baby? When OT, she is mostly happy and playful in her crib as long as we're nearby. She likes to sit up and crawl around and poke mummy's face and try to climb on mummy. This happy phase sometimes goes an hour or longer. Eventually she gets fussy and at this point often she'll go to sleep after a feed or sometimes just cuddles/patting. Sometimes we get a second round of the happy phase. Is there something we can do to get her to sleep earlier? We don't want to be rocking her or "putting" her to sleep, though -- we want her to learn to go to sleep herself...
-
Sometimes you have to get her body used to going to sleep eearlier before you work on her independent sleeping. We know she can do that already.
I think I'd probably try A time of 2:50 then 2:40, etc. for BT til you find a sweet spot.