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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: ellieelmo on May 15, 2017, 19:14:21 pm

Title: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 15, 2017, 19:14:21 pm
Hi everyone,
My first time posting here in desperate need of some help!
My EBF dd is 3 months old and has never been a good sleeper. From 3-7 weeks I used to be able to get her down for a 30 min morning nap, 1-2hr afternoon nap and then fight to get her to sleep at night, starting at 7pm with some success by 11pm. That was before. Now we are in a new fresh hell.

1. dd is overtired and now fights all sleep
2. dd is a very curious baby, interested in everything going on around her (so says HV)
3. we have a bath, book, bottle, lullaby bedtime routine which seems to be for my benefit only, starting at 5.30pm
4. Won't take a dummy
5. EBF

The last two days I have been militant trying to get her to have some sleep. I have been doing this by watching her like a hawk and the first sign of tiredness whipping her off to a darkened room, swaddle, sing, womb sounds. If I'm lucky this routine, with breast thrown in as a 'dummy', will have her sleeping within 2hrs for anything from 25mins to 2hrs. However, she wakes up happy and smiley but yawning and rubbing her eyes so I change her nappy quick sticks and repeat the routine.

Night sleep looks like;
bedtime routine at 5.30 - 6pm
down in her basket in our room between 8-10pm
up 2.5hrs later, BF both sides, back down. If I'm lucky I can do the whole feed and back down in 20mins.
up 2.5hrs later, feed
up 1.5hrs later, feed
up 1hr later, feed
co -sleep, dd will not go back down
nurse/doze from 4.30 to 6 then epic kicking (I've learnt this means she needs a poo). Back rub to help the poo along, nappy change, nurse/dose from 6.45 - 8.30. If I'm not too knackered I'll remove her from breast so she at least gets 30mins of sleep.

At this point I'll change her again, pleading with the sleep gods that whilst I'm changing her she won't start jerky movements or yawn (my prayers go unanswered), whip off to bedroom to begin the routine above. Repeat. all. day.

I've been doing this really strictly for the past two days because I will literally do anything to get her the sleep she needs. She used to fall asleep on the breast (I know  ::)) but now the can't even get her to do that. She likes the sling but now will only nap for 20 mins in it, because she's over tired?

Tonight she was bathed and routine done by 5pm and here I am at 8pm, just having picked her up for the 3rd time as she's woken up again. She just moans (which will escalate to a full on crying fit if left) and then smiling as soon as she's picked up. I've put her down asleep twice, once through rocking, once feeding to sleep as, as above I just need her to sleep!

Appreciate any help in getting out of this horrific mess. I am basically alone as dh works 8am - 8pm.

ellieelmo

Title: Re: FTM dd not sleeping
Post by: ginger428 on May 15, 2017, 19:49:05 pm
Hi Ellieelmo, welcome to BW.

This was my life almost exactly! I distinctly remember pacing the room, rocking him in tears just begging him to fall asleep!

For us, it turned out to be a combination of him being spirited/sensitive (go figure- always on the low end of sleep needs) and having bad reflux and food sensitivity (tested his poop for blood). He got ranitidine for his reflux and I did the elimination diet for the food. It wasn't a great time, but we got through it!




Title: Re: FTM dd not sleeping
Post by: annesmama on May 15, 2017, 20:07:22 pm
Hi, your DD sounds similar to mine (curious+interested).  Maybe some of the info on my thread will be helpful to you?  See "Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?"

Some things I've learned:

1. Spirited babies can stay awake longer than you think! I used to spend a long time trying to get her to sleep, but after extending her wake times, I find that she goes to sleep right away.
2. Yawning is not a reliable cue for my DD - she does it often wayyy earlier than she's ready to sleep. She also does it when she first wakes up, whether or not she's tired still.
Title: Re: FTM dd not sleeping
Post by: ellieelmo on May 16, 2017, 18:27:35 pm
Hi there,
Thank you for your replies.
+ginger438 that has been my evenings for 3months! she doesn't have reflux but I am cutting certain intolerance foods out to see if that helps. I don't have any dairy apart from cheese so will loose that for a few days and see what difference that makes.
+annasmama thanks for the tip! I've read your thread but whilst you actually get some naps I don't get any so there's no A times to tweak! As well as yawning dd rubs her red eyes and stares blankly and has a blue tinge around the mouth. My biggest problem is knowing what to do once I see these cues! I currently swaddle or rock or white noise but nothing works and then the window is gone.

Could you both list what you do as soon as you see sleepy cues?
Appreciate your replies!

ellieelmo 
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ginger428 on May 16, 2017, 19:42:06 pm
I second what Annesmama said... my DS has always had longer awake times and anywhere from 1-3 hrs BELOW the avg total sleep.  Some spirited children I know certainly do sleep well, so it varies. But our kiddos sound similar for sure.

I had a similar routine for naps and bt- bath, dark (eventually blacked out) room, nurse, song, sound machine, except at that point he either was rocked to sleep or nursed to sleep.

Would you be willing to try giving her a nap at 6:30 for 20 or so mins, then put down at 9:00? I had a friend who said that they started with a really late BT, sometimes 9:30/10, and just had the mindset that the 6:00ish sleep was a nap.  (In retrospect, I remember DS crying a lot when he woke at 7:00 and would not go back to sleep.  I was so frustrated at one point I said, fine, let's stay up and play and he did! And went to bed fine a couple of hours later.  :o )

Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: annesmama on May 16, 2017, 23:18:40 pm
Hmm, and it sounds like you don't even get to start each day rested at least :(  Is her basket comfortable?  Have you tried other sleep surfaces?  I dunno how to combat OT if nothing at all is helping your DD sleep.  I'd expect you'd want to do whatever it takes to dig out of the OT hole before trying to get to independent sleep.  Do you have an exercise ball?  That's our secret weapon - bouncing on the yoga ball.  It works when all other forms of rocking fail.

I look for either one of these signs to begin a nap:

(1) she starts fussing-crying and not even playing/walking with her helps
(2) sufficient A time has passed

...whichever is sooner. (Today we are up to 2 hour A times! What?? I don't even know. But she still goes down to sleep beautifully, so it's apparently working for her...? But not exactly because she still doesn't take long naps!)

Then the nap routine is:

0. Say "Let's go take a nap"
1. Go potty
2. Go to bedroom (which is already dim and has white noise on)
3. Put on PJ pants and sleep sack
4. "It's time to take a nap. It's time to sleep." Bounce+sing until eyes start closing (working on changing this to "hold still and upright until relaxed" -- it worked this morning!)
5. Put down in crib and shush-pat if needed

Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 17, 2017, 10:30:20 am
Hi,

First off, I think I'd reiterate what ginger has said re: reflux potentially being part of this picture. To be really frank, I've been around here 5.5 years and I've seen low sleep needs babies but I've not seen a baby sleep this little without some medical issue and most often it has been reflux. Here is some info that has helped many mums of babies with reflux who've said initially that their baby doesn't have reflux:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=170608.0

Something else to consider is overactive letdown/oversupply which can mimic reflux to this extent:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63604.0
http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/
I think looking at how your night goes, this is a real possibility, based on the reducing time between night wakings and the early morning behaviour you describe. I had this and was told my baby had intolerance to dairy and I must eliminate dairy. Instead I pumped and mixed the milk so it was more even in fat content for a few days then block fed and he was absolutely fine without eliminating the dairy.

Can I ask you to please write down your day in EAS format (I know it won't be E - 7, S - 9, E11, etc. but whatever it is will potentially help, so just for 1-2 days if you could do that - store it all up and post at once if you can).
Can you also give us a bit of a rundown on how feeding is going - how often, one/both breasts, any behaviours before/during/after feeds, hunger cues, etc.

These 20min naps are classically overstimulation (which is possible) or more often pain (which is more likely given the frequency of them and the short nights) and is suggestive of reflux.

I think annesmama is right - independent sleep is the last thing to deal with in your situation. You currently need to get sleep however it will come (here we call that accidental parenting on purpose - APOP) and once you've a routine that suits LO, the independent sleep will come much more easily. I think in your shoes I would find a way that LO sleeps - carrier (upright, often refluxers sleep happily snuggled up to mum when they won't sleep any other way), pram (sometimes the motion is helpful), swaddled on the living room floor (mine did that for quite some time because he got so upset from moving rooms and his sleep window was so small - about 60sec I reckon at one point ::) ), whatever works. I would then pick an A time and then offer sleep at that time but note when she actually falls asleep. By offering a sleep, I mean put LO into the carrier/pram/swaddle on the floor/whatever at that A time and keep walking/singing/chatting/whatever not in a hyper voice/entertaining manner, just plain conversation or singing if that's what you're doing (I used to tell DS all about photosynthesis).

A few things will happen:
1. She will learn that there's a consistent predictable routine even if she doesn't sleep, you're giving her the opportunity and she can take it or leave it (hopefully take it!).
2. She will get used to at least resting if not sleeping and that can help when she's this OT/wired.
3. You may find you work out what sort of WD she needs - quick hug and off to sleep or a lengthy period of chatting/singing, something in the middle. My spirited needed minimal WD, preferably none because it would actually wind him up and push him past the sleep window. I only discovered this when I did precisely this exercise with him and I had him in the pram for all naps for a few days. I'd put him in and walk, note when he fell asleep and then when I stopped using the pram, I used the new A time I had gathered from that. I learned he could get himself to sleep with minimal input. You might find she cries and needs a cuddle at a certain point (give her a cuddle if she's upset, don't just walk along ignoring her) then falls asleep. Whatever you do, pick something that will help you too - exercise, fresh air, walking to the shops to get some groceries. Do something that doesn't have you cooped up in a dark room for hours on end getting more and more frustrated. That's a recipe for mental health disaster for you and potentially that will make things worse with LO when she picks up on it (can they get worse?).

Caution:  Don't make the mistake of doing short A times to catch her up - if you get sleep, you'll get UT short naps which aren't restorative and it'll not help - it'll make it worse. Pick a sensible A time, starting with average for LO's age (1.5hr if just turned 3 months, 2hr if nearly 4 months) and with the noting of when she falls asleep, we can see what A time might suit her best.

Hugs xx You must be exhausted. I hope this helps. Any questions, ask away :)
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 17, 2017, 12:54:39 pm
Thank you so much +becj86!
I really appreciate your response.
I've been keeping an eat, sleep, poop diary since dd was born but stopped the E a few weeks ago when her weight gain was steady. I will do what you suggest for today and tomorrow, recording everything. Of course reflux could be part of the problem but I do think the oversupply might be more likely. dd does splutter, cough and take down a lot of air when she's nursing. My HV said to make sure I lean back when nursing to slow the flow. I'll observe properly these next two days and report back.

On the plus side she's just had a 1hr nap with me hugging her in a protective C and woke smiley but yawning.

Thank you again!
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 18, 2017, 16:06:38 pm
I thought I would post this bit as I continue collecting the EASY routine.

Feeding is on demand, I used to generally offer after each awakening. I offer both breasts at each feeding, I struggle to interrupt the feed to burp her as she gets very cross, arched back etc. and then I can't get the burp up. I burp after every feed and almost always get something. At night I must admit I don't spend that long burping, perhaps as long as I should, as she's drowsy and I'm nervous she'll awake properly and then it'll take ages to get her back down.

She does a kind of whiny noise when she's first hungry, then head bobbing, hand gnawing then full on crying if I've not responded! Sometimes she kind of pushes me away whilst nursing - her arm into my chest and pulls off a bit which I now think may mean she's trying to slow the flow? Sometimes she latches and unlatches repeatedly which I read as there being no milk (or she doesn't want to wait for let down?) and so I offer the other breast. When we're at home and she's fussy I offer breast usually as a first option and she always takes it so I'm not sure how many times per day that is, but if we're out for the day, she can go 3hrs without a feed. She comes off the breast satisfied, smiley and looking around for the next activity. She feeds very efficiently when we're out and about, desperate to get the feed out of the way so she can enjoy what's going on?

Some nights when she wakes I think it must be a burp as the last feed was just 40mins ago or so but then as I'm burping her she suckles my cheek or hand so I offer the breast and she feeds hungrily...

I had a milk supply problem when she was first born so had to supplement her with formula and pumped after every feed. I still pump as sometimes at the weekend I encourage dh to give her a bottle at night in which case its 160ml / 5oz which she drinks all of and then cries because its finished? so I offer the breast afterwards which she does take but not for long - 5 mins. I have not pumped for 3 days as I am knackered and fall into bed whatever time she does.

We did go through a phase at 7weeks of her being really uncomfortable with wind so she was on 1 dropper of infacol once per night, before the feed as advised by the HV.

Just some history - she has slept 5, 6hrs in a row at night before, once 7hrs but there was nothing truly different about those days' routines than any other so consider it a fluke. She also has taken 3hr naps in her basket and 4hr naps in the sling, both always around 12pm start.

Re: reflux, she hates being held in a typical babe in arms hold, will try and sit up out of it and much prefers to be on the shoulder where she rests her head if falling asleep. I've noticed since reading the reflux link that she sometimes coughes after burping and grimaces as if there's a bad taste in her mouth. I need to read a bit more on that link because I'm super confused as to whether it's reflux or a wind/gas problem. I've cut all the usual culprits but do still have fennel tea and chocolate. Is it possible this are triggering her upset +ginger438?

Thanks +annasmama for the tip about bouncing - that does seem to have a calming effect and fussiness certainly perhaps an indicator.

I've noticed, but I might be wrong, that her awake time is 1.20 ish is it possible that it's below average because of the overtiredness running in the background? Dd is 13 weeks today. 

ellieelmo
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 19, 2017, 09:15:57 am
Ok here goes:

EASY starting from 6pm 16.05.17.

BT routine starting at 6pm - red eyes
E 6.30
S 6.40 - 7 in my arms
E 7 - 7.30 comfort sucking
S 8 - 8.40 rocking and shushing, woke crying very upset, arched back, inconsolable really.
S 10 - 2am
E 2 - 2.30
S 3 - 4.45 rocking and shushing to get her off

E 5 - 5.30
S 5.30 - 6.30 dozing at breast (co sleeping)
A 6.45 - 8.40 back rub to help poop
A 9 - 10.30 quiet play in bouncer, yawning, staring and then fussiness, started wind down at 9.20
S 9.40 - 9.55 on my shoulder. then crying
S 10.30 - 11.10 tried to transfer to our bed (lying together) from shoulder, failed, crying inconsolably
S 11.30 - 11.45 woke crying

E 11.45 - 12 pulled off breast and gnawed hand but calm
S 12 - 1 I slid down from seated nursing position on bed to side lying with her, hand on her back the whole time
A 1 - 1.50 yawning, sneezing, fussiness. Started wind down at 1.51
S 2.23 - 3.12 on shoulder, first 40 mins I stood rocking her, then my arm was sooo sore I tried to maintain the same position but seated, pretty sure this woke her but thought I had felt the jolt already...

A 3.12 - 4.15, gnawing hand, yawning, kicking legs. Started wind down at 4.17
S 4.25 - 4.45 on my shoulder, rocking, couldn't settle after then, kept jerking her head back as soon as it neared my shoulder and waking herself up again, crying then hand gnawing.
E 5.09 - 5.17, then pooped

BT routine 5.25
E 6 - 6.10, big burp
E 6.15 - 6.23 (other side) unlatched and buried face in my chest. Started wind down at 6.26
S 6.37 -  7 woke smiling
burped
S 7.30 - 7.40, woke upset, hand gnawing
E 7.50 - 8
S 8.10 - 10.35
E 10.40 - 11 both sides
S 11.12 - 1.05
E 1.10 - 1.40 both sides
S 2.25 - 3.30
E 3.35 - 4
S 4.11 - 5.45 kicking legs

E 5.45 - 6
A 5.45 - 7.05 pooped
S 7.15 - 8.15? comfort sucking breast, co sleeping position

A 8.19 - 9.35
S 9.35 - 9.40. Started 9.05, rubbing eyes, yawning, gnawing hand
A 9.40 - 10.54 on and off dozing off on my shoulder then head jerking, whimpering. Once I accidentally woke her by trying to sit down
S 10.54 - 12.28 in basket

E 12.30 - 12.45
A 12.28 - 1.30
S 1.45 - 3 no wind down, I put her in the pram at 1.30. She kept stirring this whole time but settling back to sleep or rest. Didn't cry or whimper or gnaw hand. I hadn't realised how uneven our pavements are so a couple of times she stirred because she was jostled and the others because of sudden loud road works or motorbikes.

A 3 - 4
E 4 - 4.15
S 4.55 - 5.10 started 4.35 a bit later than I meant because we were having tummy time and I got carried away
S 5.25 - 5.35
S 6.15 - 7.15 on my shoulder, no rocking as I was sitting this time

E 7.15 - 7.40
S 7.45 - 8.50 I unlatched her from comfort sucking and she stayed asleep

BT 9
E 9.30 - 9.40 started wind down 9.42
S 10.08 - 1.52
E 1.55 - 2.10
S 2.28 - 5.00

Hmmmm.  ??? ??? ???

Most sleep unless mentioned was in her Moses basket. I've typically being making sure her nappy was changed and bedroom quiet an hour into her A time as I think it looks like her max is 1.20? But two major wins, one we have some naps! and two it didn't take two hours to get her off to sleep!

Thanks in advance if you can help me sort this out!
 
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 19, 2017, 09:39:22 am
Some nights when she wakes I think it must be a burp as the last feed was just 40mins ago or so but then as I'm burping her she suckles my cheek or hand so I offer the breast and she feeds hungrily...
So this here sounds like gas - by this point, pushing her legs up to her tummy and/or a tummy massage will be more helpful than burping. Having said that. Have you tried giving her a dummy at these times? You can burp her many ways that will keep her fairly sleepy - lying her on her tummy on your forearm; or up over your shoulder rubbing her back reasonably firmly in a circle rather than patting. Burping really well is one of the most crucial steps in getting on top of the gas issues otherwise she will just keep going round in these circles of taking in lots of air because she's feeding so vigorously to get her bowels to move along and get rid of the painful gas then waking again with the same issue.

 
I've noticed, but I might be wrong, that her awake time is 1.20 ish is it possible that it's below average because of the overtiredness running in the background? Dd is 13 weeks today. 
Yes, its possible but if she's doing short naps (45min - 1:15), you have to push a little to ~1:30 I'd say so you can get out of the UT/OT cycle.

Sometimes she kind of pushes me away whilst nursing - her arm into my chest and pulls off a bit which I now think may mean she's trying to slow the flow?
Yep - this could be the ideal time to try taking her off for a burp. She may be ok with it at that time. Otherwise, you might find pumping before a feed then topping up with the bottle of what you've pumped if necessary helps because you'll have less there and she'll get a more consistent flow that's easier to cope with. Pumping can be particularly effective if you do it before the first feed of a morning - best yield from the expressing and sets you up for the day with less wind issues :)

Sometimes she latches and unlatches repeatedly which I read as there being no milk (or she doesn't want to wait for let down?) and so I offer the other breast.
This can happen for many reasons. I guess if she's taking the other breast happily, its probably just her preference and the reason doesn't matter too much :)

I'm going to suggest you resist the temptation to feed every time she's fussy. Just keeping the feeds a bit further apart can help with the wind issues. I'm hesitant to suggest some of the supply-reducing techniques that I used myself and have recommended to many ladies with oversupply, mainly because of the supply issues you had early on - what were the signs of the low supply back then? Have you had to do anything to increase your supply other than pumping?

Re: reflux, she hates being held in a typical babe in arms hold, will try and sit up out of it and much prefers to be on the shoulder where she rests her head if falling asleep. I've noticed since reading the reflux link that she sometimes coughes after burping and grimaces as if there's a bad taste in her mouth. I need to read a bit more on that link because I'm super confused as to whether it's reflux or a wind/gas problem. I've cut all the usual culprits but do still have fennel tea and chocolate. Is it possible this are triggering her upset +ginger438?
Chocolate can be a trigger :( Not sure about the fennel tea.
It could be a touch of both - we could do what we can to get the wind under control and if we hit another plateau, look into reflux some more.

I'll have a read of the EASY, better just get my LO off to sleep first :)
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 19, 2017, 10:31:02 am
OK, so I think I've wrapped my head around it a bit - I have a few general comments that might help make things clearer over the next few days:
1. I can't tell where your 'day' and 'night' are - Sometimes it seems she's having very long naps/attempts at napping and other times she's having very long A times still.
A 3 - 4 E 4 - 4.15 S 4.55 - 5.10 started 4.35 a bit later than I meant because we were having tummy time and I got carried awayS 5.25 - 5.35 S 6.15 - 7.15 on my shoulder, no rocking as I was sitting this time E 7.15 - 7.40 S 7.45 - 8.50 I unlatched her from comfort sucking and she stayed asleepBT 9E 9.30 - 9.40 started wind down 9.42 S 10.08 - 1.52E 1.55 - 2.10 S 2.28 - 5.00
Why do you call 9pm BT here? Actually it looks like you've essentially bee get her to sleep from 4:55 til 7:1, she's eaten and gone straight back to sleep til 8:50... You also did BT routine at 5:25 the day before - her little body clock will have no chance of regulating if BT varies this much.
I would suggest that you try something like this (shift for WU in the AM / ideal WU/BT) with about a 12hr night and about a 12hr day:
7am: WU, BF - this A time to include some time outside if possible / lots of light/stimulation if not outside.
8:30 - 10am - PD for nap, resettle if necessary.
10 - WU, BF (by this I mean when next she wakes naturally after 10am, don't resettle, just get on with feeding and next A time.
11:30 - nap
1 - WU, BF
2:30 - nap
4 - WU, BF
5:30 - catnap of 45min
6:15 - WU, BF
7 - PD for the night - until 7am, no lights, no chatting, no interacting, just change nappy, feed, burp and back to bed.

2. She's taking a long time to get back to sleep after a night feed.
I think for this, you might find burping her with the back rubbing while she's over your shoulder may help get her back off to sleep a bit more quickly and give you longer stretches.

I think if I was to boil down my advice to a few points, it would be:
1. Try routine as suggested in 1. above
2. Try not to offer breast as solution to all fussiness throughout the day. Offer at WU and otherwise try tummy massage/burping, etc. first - that should help with the wind question.
3. Burp her really thoroughly after every feed, especially at night. Rubbing rather than patting should help her fall asleep vs. wake further.

Other things you can add if you feel they'll help:
4. Pump before first feed of the day - that is when you supply will be highest and the flow probably most difficult for her to cope with. You can always feed her the expressed milk if she's still hungry but keep in mind she's more efficient than any form of expressing so you might be able to use it to bulk up the BT feed ;)
5. Maybe try tilting the moses basket so the head is a bit above the foot. That can help with both gas and reflux.

Well done, you've recorded lots of info there and yes, you've achieved some naps, which is great :)
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 19, 2017, 20:51:18 pm
ok I cannot work out how to do the quote thing so here's some long winded responses.

First message:
I had no idea she would be nursing like that to try and push the wind through! We have a doctors appointment on monday to see her opinion on wind or reflux or both. I found a new wind expulsion move on youtube which I used this evening and was amazed a the trumps that came out of her little body! I've always struggled with the winding but your explaining how its connected to restless nights has really helped so I won't be skimping on the back rubbing from now on!

Yes, before she started waking at 5am I would pump a bit whilst dh held her because I was so full she couldn't latch but since the early starts I've dropped the pumping!

Re: low milk supply; week 2 she had regained birth weight, week 3 didn't put anything on and week 4 had returned to week 2's weight so I was advised to top her up after each feed with formula. I did that for 3 weeks and pumped like crazy to boost my supply. Back then I was drinking about 2 cups of fennel tea per day, I read it helps and eating a proper breastfeeding diet with all the good stuff (I am vegetarian) but that was it. Oh and tonnes of water.

Second message:
Yes, the A times are ridic, mostly because it takes so long to get her off to sleep. So yes the A times are far too long but no she's not having long sleeps. I really wasn't sure what to do yesterday as I was about to give up on the nap which I'd started working towards at 4.35pm when she dropped off, then woke so I fed her and then she dropped straight back off again before I had a chance to even burp her. I didn't put her down as I wanted her to have the rest and I didn't wake her but thought even though it was really late I should still follow the BT routine?? What should I have done??

Thank you for the suggested routine, I tried to follow something like that today but again, that afternoon nap eluded us. She did however have a 2hr nap (whuuuuuuut!!) in the pram but woke crying. AND THEN a 1.5hr nap in the afternoon.

It's the super early starts that are really hard as I'm just so foggy I can't logically think what I'm trying to do and then before I know it 1.5hrs have passed and I wonder why she's fussy.

Thank you so much for your help and support, I really really appreciate it and can't actually believe she's napping, albeit erratically and she still fights, there is improvement. Well tonight it took 1.5hrs to get her down despite me starting BT after an hour of A and then she woke after 30mins smiling, as if it was as nap. And then pooped so she's 2hrs off schedule already.

I have a few q's
How long, ideally should a wind down take? And, in one of your first posts you said you had worked out A times by doing all naps in the pram? Could you explain that a bit more?
Is wind accumulative as in, does it get stored up over the day and really manifest itself at night? I'm wondering whether I should go back to giving the infacol, but through the day to ease the wind, rather than just at night? Ah, just thought there might be a board on this.

Thank you again!


Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 19, 2017, 23:54:09 pm
Quotes you can do on a computer but I've not had luck on a phone. Just highlight the bit you want to quote and click on the "quote selected" button at the top right of the post you're quoting from.

Re: low milk supply; week 2 she had regained birth weight, week 3 didn't put anything on and week 4 had returned to week 2's weight so I was advised to top her up after each feed with formula. I did that for 3 weeks and pumped like crazy to boost my supply. Back then I was drinking about 2 cups of fennel tea per day, I read it helps and eating a proper breastfeeding diet with all the good stuff (I am vegetarian) but that was it. Oh and tonnes of water.
Ok, so DS had these same weight issues but my breasts were still pretty full after a feed so I read around a bit and accidentally clicked on an oversupply link instead of the undersupply link underneath it and found my exact problem. It is possible for a BF baby to lose weight even if mum has too much milk.

Yes, before she started waking at 5am I would pump a bit whilst dh held her because I was so full she couldn't latch but since the early starts I've dropped the pumping!
Was this the case all along? If so, I think you may be dealing with oversupply rather than undersupply. One of the things that can mean is that baby drinks a lot of 'watery' milk before she gets to the fattier milk because the fat sticks to the walls of the ducts. Something you can do to help with that is to massage the breast before a feed (not near the areola but out near the chest wall) to release some of the fat. Another option is to pump as much as you can, pop bub on and then top up with what you've pumped if necessary. Another option again is to express then mix all the milk together and separate into bottle amounts from there - similar fat contents across several feeds can make a huge difference both to fussiness and to weight gain - DS went from gaining 20g per week early on to a couple of weeks at 170g to a couple of weeks of 500g gains then back down to normal once he'd caught up.

How long, ideally should a wind down take?
Depends on the baby. Like I said, we went through periods when my DS needed not to have a WD because it just didn't work for him. My understanding is that most WD routines would be ~5mins with moving to quiet darkened room, nappy change, cuddle and a song/sleepy phrase, then put baby into bed. You might then use shush/pat to help baby get off to sleep. 

She did however have a 2hr nap (whuuuuuuut!!) in the pram but woke crying. AND THEN a 1.5hr nap in the afternoon.
Yay for 2 awesome naps in one day!! That's great progress :) What I would say about waking up crying - that can be for so many reasons. Even just being a tiny bit cold/hot, seeing something different than she saw as she was falling asleep can cause that. Not being able to see you, maybe even as simple as 'hey mum, I'm awake' - its her only method of communication and not every cry means she's in major distress. You are biologically wired though, to feel like every cry requires immediate attention because that's how babes survive until they're big enough to look after themselves ;)

I think you probably need to think of BT routine as pretty much the same as the WD - just a short little cue to LO that it is now time for sleep. I don't think these lovely elaborate 30min WDs we come up with as adults are really necessary for babies - they've not got the same perspective in life - they're not trying to let go of the stress and worry of the day/about the future, etc. They're literally living in the moment and just need a cue that its time for sleep. Read books during the day when the mood takes you, bath when it suits you both - morning/night/middle of the day - if its exciting for her, bath her in that first A time to signal that now its time to play, if its relaxing, maybe do the bath in the last A time to help her relax a bit.

Is wind accumulative as in, does it get stored up over the day and really manifest itself at night? I'm wondering whether I should go back to giving the infacol, but through the day to ease the wind, rather than just at night? Ah, just thought there might be a board on this.
The reasons its often worse at night are many:
- she's distracted in the day and not at night - pain will feel worse. Think about last time you had a sore toe or something - didn't bother you during the day but made it hard to get to sleep, yes?
- she's more upright, moving more during the day - helps get the air out as burps which are far less painful than trapped gas further down the gut, also helps the bowels move (hence people get constipated when they're laid up in bed for a while) which means the gut doesn't get as much of an accumulation of air - lying down, it'll find the highest point and just all get stuck there which then stretches the gut wall and hurts.
- your supply is lower during the day (after the first AM feed) because you're up and about doing things whereas your body can just work on making milk at night and she probably takes in less air whilst feeding because she's that bit more alert. Some babies only have really unsettled times at night after the night feed following their long stretch of sleep because that's when the milk flow is at its strongest and causes these issues you have all day long.

in one of your first posts you said you had worked out A times by doing all naps in the pram? Could you explain that a bit more?
Yep, so I had a baby who slept about as much as yours did when you first posted. I couldn't recognise any of his cues and I was cooped up in this dark room shush/patting for hours on end to no avail. He was crying all the time and not gaining weight. The doctor was starting to ask questions about how often I was feeding him and I thought she was thinking I was just not feeding him at all. I was really suffering with PND - I felt no connection with him, didn't believe he was mine and so I would take him to the shops so other people (strangers) could tell me how nice he was just so I could see enough value in him to keep looking after him. I knew I had to change something so I started going outside. I would feed him in the morning then we'd go and we'd play in the park/walk around the shopping centre until I thought he should be ready for a sleep (by the average A time), then I'd pop him in the pram and walk. I'd check on him through the little see-through bit of the pram hood and so long as he was sitting up enough that he could see out he was usually happy enough to be in the pram and would just fall asleep when he was ready. I'd note the time, lie him down and walk til he woke when I'd note the time and feed him. This was probably possible because of the place I lived - the weather was ok to do that, these places were all pretty close together.

I didn't put her down as I wanted her to have the rest and I didn't wake her but thought even though it was really late I should still follow the BT routine?? What should I have done??
I think what you did was perfectly reasonable given the circumstances, I guess I was just pointing out that if you keep having such a variation in BT, she will struggle to self-regulate. By that I mean that if we know what baby needs re: sleep amounts and what baby can reasonably manage re: A times, we can set up a routine with a loose schedule (no need to stick to it by the minute but by the quarter-half hour is worth it) that meets their needs and allow them to take what they need (and self-regulate) knowing via the predictability of the routine (EAS) that they'll have another opportunity for fulfilling this same need and by their experience with the loose schedule that this opportunity will be timely. Does that make sense? To me, that's the power of the EASY routine in the hands of loving parents. It allows a baby to learn that their needs (physical and emotional) will be met consistently.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 21, 2017, 21:00:02 pm
Hi,

Well we've had a FUN few days...

Was this the case all along? If so, I think you may be dealing with oversupply rather than undersupply. One of the things that can mean is that baby drinks a lot of 'watery' milk before she gets to the fattier milk because the fat sticks to the walls of the ducts. Something you can do to help with that is to massage the breast before a feed (not near the areola but out near the chest wall) to release some of the fat. Another option is to pump as much as you can, pop bub on and then top up with what you've pumped if necessary. Another option again is to express then mix all the milk together and separate into bottle amounts from there - similar fat contents across several feeds can make a huge difference both to fussiness and to weight gain - DS went from gaining 20g per week early on to a couple of weeks at 170g to a couple of weeks of 500g gains then back down to normal once he'd caught up.

Ah, wish I'd known that back then!

I would feed him in the morning then we'd go and we'd play in the park/walk around the shopping centre until I thought he should be ready for a sleep (by the average A time), then I'd pop him in the pram and walk. I'd check on him through the little see-through bit of the pram hood and so long as he was sitting up enough that he could see out he was usually happy enough to be in the pram and would just fall asleep when he was ready. I'd note the time, lie him down and walk til he woke when I'd note the time and feed him.

Thank you for this. This is what I've been trying to do this weekend - we've luckily had good weather. But the results have been really mixed, sometimes like today, dd dropped of in an hour to the minute! of being in the pushchair, other times it has been 1.20/ 1.40 or not at all.

It's still take 2+hrs get her down for the night. The last two nights we've had BT at 6pm, she's been 'ready' at 6.40 but actual sleep comes at 8pm for 20/30mins and then it's another hour before night sleep comes. I've just put her down for what I hope will be 2.5hrs.

Last night she work at 12.30am and I couldn't get her down again until 2.30pm due to uncomfortableness with wind. I had the light off but she was obviously having trouble latching so I turned the light on and she looked like she'd had a shower, her face was covered in milk which was shooting out at her. Sigh. But when she did finally go down it was for a 3hr stretch and she'd previously done a almost 4hr stretch so 7hrs sleep at night is a win for me. When she work at 5.40am (a lie in!) she came in with us and I got a further 2hrs sleep from her with a feed after 1hr. But then the rest of the day was a bit of a write off. Couldn't get her down for a proper morning nap just 20mins, then thought I'd be best to go out so the pram could do the rocking. She started to look a bit glazed and fussed at A 1hr so I put her in the pram thinking it would be 20/30mins before she dropped off she went ti sleep immediately but only for 30mins. Then woke I fed her, it was an hour of whimpering and me carrying her whilst pushing the pram, before I put her back in, again at 1hr and she slept for another 30mins.

I've been really careful with playtime and stimulation and WD but this weekend has been pretty bad. I think the only option is to go back to the 1.5hr average A time and assume that all the longer and shorter wake times I've been having have been affected by a bad night's sleep/ bad / missed nap before hand.

The confusing thing is, 10mins in to the WD or 10 mins into being in the pram she'll yawn and I think yes! I've got her in her sleepy place before overtiredness hits but then it's still an hour or more, usually, before the proper sleep comes. I've tried no WD just a swaddle and put down but that doesn't work. I'm really not sure where to go from here... we have the doctors tomorrow morning for her 12 week immunisations so I think it'll be a rocky day. I really wanted to have some sort of consistent night times in place before the 4month regression but that's only 2.5 weeks away so I am not hopeful.

 
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 22, 2017, 04:13:40 am
10mins in to the WD or 10 mins into being in the pram she'll yawn and I think yes! I've got her in her sleepy place before overtiredness hits but then it's still an hour or more, usually, before the proper sleep comes.
So this can happen when LO is still working out how tiredness works - that's why it helps to get them at their sleep window because they don't know when it is themselves, really - if you PD UT, they're not ready for sleep so don't go to sleep but then they get OT instead of just falling asleep when they get to perfect tiredness level.

I think in your shoes, I'd concentrate on the feeding and the wind. Getting that sorted I think will make a big difference to the sleep. Did you have a look at the link to http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html? Laid back nursing made a big difference when DS was being showered (seriously, I'd catch nearly 3oz if I put a container in place to catch the letdown on the breast DS wasn't latched to) with milk.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 22, 2017, 19:35:42 pm
Thank you for that link.

We've had a rough day, 20 mins in the sling post immunisations, 45mins in the prom and now after trying the nurturing position for feeding dd has been sleeping on me for 3hrs with no sign of waking... So we're massively deviating from bedtime again *sigh*.

The doctor says he sees no sign of it being reflux and did a full exam to rule out anything else. He kind of was suggesting that her waking is more emotional than physical like because I am worrying /anxious and struggling she's picking up on that and "checking up" on me every few hours. I know babies are super sensitive to your mood but I just can't relax into motherhood as I'm so worried about her lack of sleep hindering her development and growth (despite evidence of the contrary). It's a vicious circle that I need to mentally get myself out of.

Ironically, I read all this stuff when waiting for her to arrive (10 days post my due date) about my needing to relax and stop stressing about being overdue, to bring on labour and just couldn't mentally do that. Until I had a hilarious conversation with my sister, laughed SO hard and my husband brought home flowers and a sweet card (it was valentine's night) and I literally felt my mood lift and a huge lump in my throat, a couple of hours later I was in active labour.

So I guess I've answered my own question there, I need to chill and focus as you say, on her needs day by day and showing her that there's some predictability in her day that she can rely upon and relax into which in turn will help me relax. It's just so crushing when we're out and she's crying and people say 'ooo that's not a happy baby' I KNOW, I just don't know how to relax her into sleep so she'll not be overtired and upset so much.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 23, 2017, 10:46:54 am
Yes, relaxing into it is a big part of it too. Knowing that Dr has looked her over thoroughly and found nothing serious should help you relax a bit too. Try that nurturing position some more - honestly just relaxing for feeds made such a difference for us.

FWIW, even with our atrocious start, DS was walking at 8.5 months and said his first word (a stranger noticed it before I did) at 9 months. The lack of sleep I think must have to be pretty horrendous to delay development by much provided baby has a loving family and is having physical needs met.

It's just so crushing when we're out and she's crying and people say 'ooo that's not a happy baby' I KNOW, I just don't know how to relax her into sleep so she'll not be overtired and upset so much.
I know its much easier said than done but really you just have to ignore these people or find a nice sentence that stops them in their tracks. I had someone tell me DS was hungry when I'd literally just unlatched him from a big feed. They don't know your baby or you and they are commenting without any of the necessary information to draw conclusions so they're basically just trying to make conversation in a clumsy way. Maybe you could say something like: "Yes, she doesn't like strangers much" or "Yes, she's tired so I need to get her out of these bright lights / this noisy place".

I still think a lot of her waking is related to the gas. Waking every few hours is perfectly reasonable at her age - for food ;) Its those every 30min-1hr times that are getting to you more so (yes?) and that I think you can sort that by getting the feeding sorted.

Have you tried doing some specific relaxation techniques? You can even do some, like visualisation type techniques with LO during/after a feed or before a nap - talk her through it or listen to one as she's latching for a laid back feed.

Hugs xx I wish I could pop by to give you a hug and a break. Pity you're on the other side of the world!
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 25, 2017, 16:51:19 pm
Thank you again!
I've had some success I think with the biological nurturing position. In that LO has a full feed and then burps then I put her on the other side and she feeds for a minute before falling asleep. So we're making nap progress for sure but still no success re not providing a crutch.

I've been recording another EASY as things are better but still weird. Yesterday I got a massive load of wind out of her which I thought would mean a more comfortable nights sleep but she woke every 1.5hrs. There was no crying or whimpering each time, I just woke to the sound of her kicking her legs and it took an age to get her down again  :'(

I've gone back to using the infacol for 3-5 days at every feed to see if that makes any difference to her discomfort. I've stopped offering the breast too but have found if I offer a top up feed before a nap it kind of gives her an energy boost and she's no longer sleepy but if I don't she's only asleep for 30mins before waking and ravenous  ???
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 26, 2017, 01:14:58 am
So we're making nap progress for sure but still no success re not providing a crutch.
That's fine. The independent sleep will come in time.

There was no crying or whimpering each time, I just woke to the sound of her kicking her legs and it took an age to get her down again   
If she's not upset, just leave her. Your job is to offer her the environment and time in which to sleep - her job is to sleep.

I've stopped offering the breast too but have found if I offer a top up feed before a nap it kind of gives her an energy boost and she's no longer sleepy but if I don't she's only asleep for 30mins before waking and ravenous 
Ok, so quite a common issue - what you can try is offering a topup ~45min after the first feed so she's not feeding to sleep or getting that energy boost right before nap time but she's more likely to get through her nap.
eg. 7 - WU, feed
7:45/8 - feed
8:30 - nap
10 - feed
etc.

She could also be wanting to feed back to sleep - she'd be most likely OT waking at 30min and some babies' sleepy cues are mistaken for hunger cues.
She could also be in discomfort - she may want to feed to relieve pain from gas/reflux.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on May 30, 2017, 14:09:59 pm
I still think a lot of her waking is related to the gas. Waking every few hours is perfectly reasonable at her age - for food  Its those every 30min-1hr times that are getting to you more so (yes?) and that I think you can sort that by getting the feeding sorted.
Absolutely! If I could get to 4hr stretches at night and 2hr stretches in the day I would be over the moon, even more so if I could figure out how to get her to sleep once she's shown those sleepy cues which I think I am beginning to be able to recognise with some certainty,

​Ok here goes:

S 4.25 - 5.39 co sleeping
E/S 5.39 - 9 basically she's in bed with me, breast out and sleeps/feeds as she likes usually until 9ish. I keep telling myself I need to stay awake to work out when she's sleeping but am so tired I don't. This also makes the A time really hard to figure. Will try harder. What I do know is that every time she wakes she's cranky and rubbing her eyes so I encourage her to go back to sleep with a hug and pats and shushing.

E 9 - 9.15
A 9.15 - 11.09
E 10.30 top up feed and thorough burp. tried rocking, bouncing but she just got very cross so gave breast and she dropped off
S 11.09 - 11.30 in my arms (woken by builders next door wouldn't go back)

E 12.20 - 12.30
A 11.30 13.35 put her in pushchair at 12.50 and she was really cross after about 5 mins of looking around. Stopped every few mins for a cuddle and reassurance but no avail, as the cries turned to whimpers I pushed faster and she settled
S 13.35 - 14.50 in pushchair, I had been pushing it around but stopped as it was really hot here and I'm tired! so she woke. Could be a coincidence but unlikely. Woke happy though.

E 15.05 - 15.19
A 15.05 - 16.45 started rubbing eyes at 15.55 (perhaps because earlier nap was shortened by my stopping pushing?) tried to change activity, then calm and rock to sleep but no luck. Eventually gave breast. Was going to try an have this nap in the pushchair again but she was cranky and crying with her eyes closed (tired cry) that I didn't want to stress her any further.
S 16.45 - 19.00 in my arms I put her down with the hope that she'd either keep sleeping independently so I could or wake up. She woke but was very happy and smiley and no eye rubbing. Later than the ideal but again I still think I need to break the back of this chronic overtiredness so letting her sleep as and when.

BT 19.30
E 20.00- 20.25 so after nursing she was drowsy so I started gentle patting and shushing, transferred her to basket where she promptly woke up smiling and chortling. Tried patting and shushing and I swear for 1 second it looked like her eyes were getting heavy so I ducked out of view and kept going but she started chortling and kicking so I picked her up. So ensued lots of back arching crying and arms flailing until 21.30 or so when she slowed to a whimper. Then conked out on my shoulder. It's as if she doesn't want me to interfere with her getting off to sleep but if I don't (just put her down) she goes crazy with upset.
S 21.45 - 23.40 No idea why she woke here, no wind, no legs kicking, no sucking, no crying. I offered breast and she just smiled up at me cooing, then I tried back rubbing and she started hand gnawing. Then dh came home so he took her for 10mins. Then laid her down for skin to skin which calmed her, she started rooting so fed her. She fell asleep at 1.
S 1-3.15
E 3.15 - 3.30
S 3.30 - 4.25
E ?
S - 6.20
E 6.20 - 6.45
S 6.45 - 7.30

E 7.30 - 7.40
A 7.30 - 9.30 heavy eyelids, looking away from toys, fussiness
S dozing at the breast 9.30 - 10.30
S 10.30 - 11.10 on her own! on our bed! after I put her down!

E 11.10 - 11.25
A 11.10 - 13.15 in pushchair at 12.35
S 13.15 - 14.00 crying etc. picked up for a cuddle 4/5 times before she went off. Stopped pushchair after she'd been asleep for 5 mins to save my walking.

E 14.00 - 14.15 both sides
A 14.00 - 15.00
S 15.00 - 15.30 I stopped pushing the pushchair

E 16.10 - 16.30
A 15.30 - 17.30 prepared for a nap at 16.30 thinking she would be cranky soon because the earlier nap was cut short. she began do​z​ing at the breast so I began rocking and shushing, she fell asleep so I put her in her basket but she woke crying loudly, calmed her by picking up, tried to rock her but she just got more and more cross so I fed her and lo and behold she nursed, unlatched and fell asleep in my arms.
S 17.30 - 19.36 in my arms until 19.00
E 19.36 - 19.45
BT 20.00
E 20.20 - 20.40
S 21.00 - 23.30

E 23.35 - 23.45
S 12.00 - 3.30!!!
E ​3.35 - 3.50, then into bed with us, couldn't settle for the terrible wind. Pooped at 5.30 then
E 5.45 - 6.00 
A 3.35 - 6.00
S​ 6.00 - 6.55

Oh dear.

Even when she's nursing and unlatches herself really drowsily she keeps jerking her head away as if she doesn't want to rest her head. As if sleep or having her head down is scary for her. She's showing that she's tired, I'm doing everything I can to facilitate her sleeping but she just won't rest. I am so exhausted now I either nurse her to sleep, which has started working again, or co-sleep. But even when co-sleeping she gets really cross as if she wants to be asleep within a second and is annoyed that it's taking so long to drop off. So she latches and then stops as if too tired to continue sucking, I unlatch her and she's fine for about a minute before she starts getting upset that it's taking too long and round and round we go.  Sounds like she's overstimulated?

When I unlatch her and try to do gentle pats and back rub to get her back to sleep it's as if this wakes her up further and then starts the fussiness and crying. And, as soon as I bring her into the bedroom for a nap and hold her upright for WD she starts fussing and then full blown crying. It's like she knows we're here to sleep and she doesn't want to.

​Sigh.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on May 31, 2017, 08:56:51 am
So, you're making some progress. There are some good naps and some good stretches at night in there :)

Sounds like she's overstimulated?
Nope, just chronically OT I think. You know when you're so tired you can't get off to sleep? That's what's happening for her at the moment, so really, I think breastfeeding to sleep is fine for now if that's what has to happen to get her body used to sleeping again and to really get through this chronic OT.

Even when she's nursing and unlatches herself really drowsily she keeps jerking her head away as if she doesn't want to rest her head. As if sleep or having her head down is scary for her.
Could be the chronic OT - that'd be my bet but worth considering reflux as a component for sure.

 
When I unlatch her and try to do gentle pats and back rub to get her back to sleep it's as if this wakes her up further and then starts the fussiness and crying.
What if you don't do the shushing and patting and just leave her?

S 11.09 - 11.30 in my arms (woken by builders next door wouldn't go back)
:( So upsetting when that happens. Have you tried showing her what's making the noise? I finally twigged with DS that if he knew what the noise was, he would sleep through it but otherwise he would wake and be really wired.

Tried patting and shushing and I swear for 1 second it looked like her eyes were getting heavy so I ducked out of view and kept going but she started chortling and kicking so I picked her up.
Firstly, no need to duck out of view - that's more movement for her to watch and reawaken. I found if I closed my eyes while shush/patting, DS would often do the same. I think if she's happy in bed, just keep going with the shush/pat or leave and see if she goes off to sleep. Getting her back up when its definitely sleep time will just help her maintain that second wind.

Overall, whilst things are definitely still not ideal, she's getting a lot more sleep than she was and it looks like her discomfort is managed much better than it was when you first posted so you've done really well.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 01, 2017, 17:12:06 pm
You know when you're so tired you can't get off to sleep?
All too well.
What if you don't do the shushing and patting and just leave her?
She slowly works herself up and I haven't got the wind up so risk it interrupting her sleep later.

Well today has been interesting. Yesterday she managed two naps of 30mins and 45mins in the sling after A times of 3hrs 15 and 1.5hrs. The 45mins nap ending at 2pm. She had a 10minute power nap at 3pm also in the sling and then nothing. As she was so visibly tired I brought forward her bath, still trying to aim for 1.5hrs of A time. So the evening went like this:

A 15.10 - 18.30
E 15.30 -  15.40
E 17.30 - 17.45
BT 18.00 
S 18.30 - 19.00

E 19.00 - 19.25
S 19.32 - 2.00
E 2.00 - 2.20
S 2.20 - 4.20
E 4.20 - 4.30
S 4.33 - 6.24

A 6.34 - 7.50
E 7.00 - 7.10
S 7.50 - 8.10 started at 7.30 as she started to really fuss and look red around the eyes. She was calmish until 7.40 when started the screaming and back arching.
S 8.33 - 9.00 woke without crying and just cooing in basket. I left her thinking she might resettle but she didn't and started the screaming crying.

A 9 - 9.55
E 9.30 - 9.45
S 9.55 - 14.35 she unlatched herself and fell asleep then woke twice more at 11.30 and 1pm to feed (I was holding her this whole time without a top on so she could just latch and unlatch as she wanted) but each time it wasn't a proper feed just a few comfort sucks really then unlatched just after letdown.

A 14.35 - 16.40
E 15.00 - 15.20
S 16.40 - 17.00 in pram. I put her in at 15.40 thinking she'd have 25 mins of looking around at the park before the motion soothed her to sleep. I had to pick her up about 5 times before she went off. Each time I picked her up she silenced immediately, I explained what we were doing and put her in and she'd start to cry again.
Came home at 17.30 and just letting her play for half an hour before BT.

What should I have done differently today? I was keen for her to have the rest she needs of course but I'm also conscious that I'm making things worse by letting her sleep on me for such long periods at the risk of messing up her day and night?
What does that really long night sleep mean? That her little body is so exhausted it just gave up and she slept?

Other stuff, she has basically been gnawing her fingers for 5 days, I've not been offering the breast but read this as a comfort thing because she's overtired?
She was really happy over the weekend, having a 2hr nap both on saturday and sunday in our bed, and then a little top up nap in the afternoon at the breast then not too bad night sleep; 2.5hr stretches until 5am. But it all seems to have gone horribly wrong. She has also started doing this really loud shrieking noise, i haven't worked out what it means, she does it at all different times and it doesn't progress to crying ever.

On the plus side she didn't wake this morning because of wind or needing to poop, oh yes, just remembered, I kept waking in the night because of her passing wind but it didn't seem to bother her. I could hear her trying to push it out without crying or waking, it appeared. Maybe the infacol is working in that respect.

Agh, i am just so lost. I can't seem to work out any reasonable A times, if I think it's 1hr 30 shes cranky at 1hr, then has a power nap (10/20mins) then I don't know whether to treat that as a sleep and reset the A time (if I do shes cranky after an hour or less) if I don't she seems to be able (well i know shes not able but she does) to go for 3/4hrs A time and then crash.

I did have high hopes for the sling naps yesterday but no luck and I was beginning to think she would only do long stretches on me  / in out bed because shes on her side so getting relief from any digestion pain, but then last night changed all that. Shes 15 weeks today and i really wanted to have some sense of progress before the 4month regression hits and it all gets worse. If that's possible.

Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 02, 2017, 11:16:47 am
S 19.32 - 2.00
Well that's a good stretch :) I don't think that's an exhaustion sleep because the next few stretches weren't horrendously short. Yes, shorter than you'd like but 2hr is pretty reasonable for her at that time of night, yk.

S 9.55 - 14.35 she unlatched herself and fell asleep then woke twice more at 11.30 and 1pm to feed (I was holding her this whole time without a top on so she could just latch and unlatch as she wanted) but each time it wasn't a proper feed just a few comfort sucks really then unlatched just after letdown
This is probably a bit long for a day nap. In your shoes I'd have probably let her sleep too just because she's so OT and because I wanted some time in which she wasn't crying ;) I would say that as a once-off its probably fine but wouldn't want to get this as a habit, so wake after 2hr or so and have some more A time.

Other stuff, she has basically been gnawing her fingers for 5 days, I've not been offering the breast but read this as a comfort thing because she's overtired?
or teething or just finding her fingers are pretty awesome. Really normal stuff for a baby this age.

She has also started doing this really loud shrieking noise, i haven't worked out what it means, she does it at all different times and it doesn't progress to crying ever.
Quite possibly just finding her voice, enjoying making a new sound. Unlikely to be anything sinister given it doesn't progress to crying.

Shes 15 weeks today and i really wanted to have some sense of progress before the 4month regression hits and it all gets worse. If that's possible.
Its unlikely to get any worse. I didn't know there even was such a thing until I found this site when DS was 5mo. I had BWSAYP and just did 4hr easy by the clock for a few days at 4 months and everything fit really well and things got better from there.

There has definitely been progress.
S 18.30 - 19.00 E 19.00 - 19.25S 19.32 - 2.00E 2.00 - 2.20 S 2.20 - 4.20 E 4.20 - 4.30 S 4.33 - 6.24
This night here, she had a 12hr night with one OT NW early in the evening and 2 NWs. That's pretty good for this age. Who knows? You could be turning a corner with these long stretches of sleep and breaking the back of that OT. I've got my fingers crossed for you! If you have another good night, maybe try 1:45-2hr A times and see how that goes.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 09, 2017, 19:47:25 pm
Well, sadly that wasn't the start of a change :(
The longest stretch at night in the last week has been 4hrs with gradual decreases as the night wears on. But, on the positive side dd has been 'ready' for bed (bathed, story, fed) by 7pm and then goes to sleep at either 7.15, 7.45 or 7.55 and that's been for a week so progress, and some consistency.

There have actually been some naps - mostly 30 or 50 mins but :( dd won't go down for them at all, she has to be held. After 1.45 A time, she will fall asleep within 15mins of rocking so I'm thinking that's approx the right A time. But when I try and put her down she wakes crying, I'll try about 3 times before giving up and just holding her. What's going on?? This doesn't happen at all at night time, she has been (touch wood) going down at the first attempt.

Wind is still a problem, last nights wakenings were after 4.30hrs, 3hrs, 1hr, 1hr the wake up after 3hrs was deffo not from hunger but discomfort and the last two OT? I'm still giving the infacol but can't see it making a difference. It's also getting super hard to wind her for some reason, I'm rarely getting anything ever. But dd has had a cold this week so could be waking due to that.

Another positive! I've been working hard to put her down again at 5.30am / 6.30am after the leg kicking and poo, thinking, if she's only gone to bed at 7.45pm she needs to get used to a 12hr night. She'll go down for another hour or so and it's a precious lie in for me!

I've massively (or she has) reduced the number of feedings in the day now which I hope will help with the wind as you suggested. And subsequently we've got rid of the nursing to sleep apart from the catnap at 4.15 which I'm so desperate for and having been up half the night I'm on my last legs so whatever works!

A few questions:
Sometimes when dd goes down at night she wakes up again after 50mins and then it takes 40mins or so to resettle her?
Do A times decrease throughout the day? 1.45, 1.20, 1.15? or could this be related to overtiredness still?
We've been out in the sling quite a bit and I've noticed about 4 yawns before she just drops off with in 5mins, this has been after about 1.20 or 1.30 A time. But then she's only sleeping for 30 or 40 mins and then waking with a few blinks. OT?

I know I shouldn't be biting off more than I can chew but how does the drowsy but awake work? I put her down once I've heard her breathing change and as soon as she's down she squirms, has a stretch, might blink a few times, and then closes her eyes to sleep. I'm trying to obviously ease towards putting her down awake in the next 2 months hopefully.

I did think I was making progress but last night was rough and today we had 2 x 30mins and 1 x 40mins naps and that's all - all in the sling.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 09, 2017, 22:58:30 pm
Wind is still a problem, last nights wakenings were after 4.30hrs, 3hrs, 1hr, 1hr the wake up after 3hrs was deffo not from hunger but discomfort and the last two OT?
Did you feed at the 3hr waking? If so, likely wind for those 1hr later wakings. So common with the extra flow after a while without feeding whilst you're resting - body just makes lots of milk :)

Her sleep will be a little off with a cold too.

I've massively (or she has) reduced the number of feedings in the day now which I hope will help with the wind as you suggested. And subsequently we've got rid of the nursing to sleep apart from the catnap at 4.15 which I'm so desperate for and having been up half the night I'm on my last legs so whatever works!
Well done, this is half the battle and sounds like she's a bit more comfortable in the day.

Sometimes when dd goes down at night she wakes up again after 50mins and then it takes 40mins or so to resettle her?
That's pretty classically OT from the short naps of the day. Its awful when its happening because you just want the night to be the NIGHT! You've made lots of progress and I think whilst this will be an issue again, it will likely settle once her day's a bit more reliable.

Do A times decrease throughout the day? 1.45, 1.20, 1.15? or could this be related to overtiredness still?
Yes they can - depending on the baby. I think yours might be reducing due to the short naps though which is also reasonable.

We've been out in the sling quite a bit and I've noticed about 4 yawns before she just drops off with in 5mins, this has been after about 1.20 or 1.30 A time. But then she's only sleeping for 30 or 40 mins and then waking with a few blinks. OT?
She might just be associating it with sleep or maybe its nice and warm and comfy and she can hear your heartbeat and she's moving that little bit as you walk and she just falls asleep. Do you keep walking and try to resettle her?

I know I shouldn't be biting off more than I can chew but how does the drowsy but awake work? I put her down once I've heard her breathing change and as soon as she's down she squirms, has a stretch, might blink a few times, and then closes her eyes to sleep. I'm trying to obviously ease towards putting her down awake in the next 2 months hopefully.
This is the start :) Now when you're doing this, try to notice what happens before her breathing changes, then once you know that, you can put her down when that happens. Basically you're teaching her one process at a time how to do that process in her bed.

How old is she now? I think if you're having to rock her for 15min after 1:45 A time to get her to sleep, maybe 2hr might be better. Is she getting upset going into the bedroom? Some babies struggle with transitions from place to place - taking a toy or something from pre-nap play to bed might help?

Sounds like your night is going better with earlier BT and longer night.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 12, 2017, 20:25:01 pm
Thank you for your reply.

hat's pretty classically OT from the short naps of the day. Its awful when its happening because you just want the night to be the NIGHT! You've made lots of progress and I think whilst this will be an issue again, it will likely settle once her day's a bit more reliable.
We've not seen this for the last 3 nights so hopefully that's a sign I'm making progress chipping away at the sleep debt.

She might just be associating it with sleep or maybe its nice and warm and comfy and she can hear your heartbeat and she's moving that little bit as you walk and she just falls asleep. Do you keep walking and try to resettle her?
Yes, always keep walking and patting to try and get her back off, today was the 5th day in a row that it hasn't worked :( she's just blinked awake, after 20mins yesterday and today and not gone back. But she hasn't cried shes just been quite happy looking around. Both yesterday and today she'd been really cranky by 4.15/4.30 and I've not, the last two days, fed her to nap. She's cried her really upset tired cry and then conked out on my shoulder (I'm doing this bounce rock think that works ish). Yesterday was a 50min nap and today 1.40mins on my shoulder. I haven't tried to put her down. Both nights I've woken her at 6pm to try and keep some sense of bed time. She's bathed at 6.30 and asleep both nights at 7.45 so even though its later than our routine she's clearly super tired (but not upset). So that's an A time of 1.45 which I've been trying to do. There is always some horrible crying at 1.45, 1.55, 2hrs. If I had the perfect A time would there be no crying?! Ideally how much crying should I tolerate before abandoning that nap? Given that I think there will always be some at the moment as I work to cancel the sleep debt.

How old is she now? I think if you're having to rock her for 15min after 1:45 A time to get her to sleep, maybe 2hr might be better. Is she getting upset going into the bedroom? Some babies struggle with transitions from place to place - taking a toy or something from pre-nap play to bed might help?
She's 16 weeks now (can't believe its taking so long to see any significant improvement :( ) She doesn't get upset going into the bedroom but as soon as i put her on my shoulder to sing/rock she gets cross. Like she knows I'm trying to get her off to sleep and doesn't want to go? Today she brought a rattle with her but didn't see any difference. I have found that standing near the door where the daylight comes in seems to work better for her then the corner where her basket is, works better in that she gets less upset. I don't do this for nighttime though.

This morning was a bit weird:

S 4.30 - 5.18am (she woke and was just kicking her legs but not the same angry was as she used to) When I looked in her basket she was wide awake and smiled at me. She genuinely looked bright eyed so I took this as the start of her day even though it was less than a 12 hr night (she went down at 7.45pm) I changed her and then fed her and we played quietly in bed with books.

S 7.18 - 7.54am (restarted rocking at 7.10, she pooped at 7am just as I was starting to rock). Woke calmly but then started to fuss so I tried to get her back down. There have been some mornings when after her poop she just needs another half hour on my shoulder to finish off the night. I had thought this was the same but i'd put her down this time.

S 9.17 - 10.10am in basket, started rocking at 9.01 as she was obviously still really tired and fussing. I had been going to aim for a 1.45 A time but brought it forward to 1.05 A time.

All a bit strange? What do you think is going on? Am I right to treat the 5am ish waking as still part of the night? I think *touch wood* that the early morning poop is not making her so uncomfortable any more because of the reduced feeding in the day?, and shes just awake and ready to start the day super early? I still have a problem winding her, I curse silently every time I hear a gulp of air go down and struggle so hard to get any burbs up at the moment. Still using the infacol.

Lordy. Target this week is to get one nap a day down in the basket. If the 9am
sleep is a nap, target achieved today, plus, even though they were erratic, 3 actual naps today! .

She's still startling herself awake when I do get her down for naps so I've put her in a swaddle zip up for night sleeps which has meant no startling awake (she can roll only from front to back so far). Perhaps I should use it for naps too? But it's warm here so I'd have to undress her down to just nappy before each nap otherwise she'll over heat. She is naturally a very warm baby who gets very cross in more than one layer.

She's now averaging 11+ hrs sleep in 24 which is 3hrs more than when I first posted so thank you for your help getting us here! Keeping everything  crossed I can add another few hours to that and consolidate it a bit more overnight. Baby steps.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 13, 2017, 07:41:05 am
If I had the perfect A time would there be no crying?!
Not necessarily - crying is her only means of communication and doesn't necessarily mean something dire is happening. She might not like the transition from play to sleep. She might be asking for help to fall asleep. Its very hard to know which is part of why EAS is helpful because you are catering for the major needs regularly.

She doesn't get upset going into the bedroom but as soon as i put her on my shoulder to sing/rock she gets cross. Like she knows I'm trying to get her off to sleep and doesn't want to go?
Or she doesn't like that position? Have you tried holding her a different way and singing? DS liked being held almost horizontal (almost like BF hold) and he then wasn't moving as much to lie down... I imagine she can see things more clearly where there is light and she might prefer that. I know I would!

S 4.30 - 5.18am (she woke and was just kicking her legs but not the same angry was as she used to) When I looked in her basket she was wide awake and smiled at me. She genuinely looked bright eyed so I took this as the start of her day even though it was less than a 12 hr night (she went down at 7.45pm) I changed her and then fed her and we played quietly in bed with books.
I think this was probably a night waking rather than a start to the day but that's me... I suspect getting those A times up to ~2hr may help with that.

Is she sleeping any longer naps? Have you tried hold through the jolts as yet? Might be worth considering for those short naps that you are getting.

Do you think the infacol is helping? I'm in two minds about it - it helps little bubbles join together and make bigger bubbles and supposedly makes them easier to get out. I sometimes think its easier to get little ones.

Target this week is to get one nap a day down in the basket. If the 9am sleep is a nap, target achieved today, plus, even though they were erratic, 3 actual naps today!
Good target - one step at a time.

She's still startling herself awake when I do get her down for naps so I've put her in a swaddle zip up for night sleeps which has meant no startling awake (she can roll only from front to back so far). Perhaps I should use it for naps too?
If its safe to use, yes you can use it for naps as well. Sorry, I'm not sure what those look like or how much they restrict movement.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 13, 2017, 09:26:21 am
Gosh this morning has been horrific.
She woke at 5.15 after going down at 4.30am. Again bright eyed so I changed and fed her and she pooped. Tried to play but she was really fussy and rubbing her eyes so I tried to get her back down. A 1.35, S 50 in basket. When she woke at 7.40am we played a bit whilst I had breakfast, fed her and then played a bit more but she got cranky and no toy would settle her. So took her off to bedroom with a toy for WD. She's just finally fallen asleep in my shoulder. A 2.20. She cooed along with me singing for 15mins then started crying then fell asleep. I put her down and she was fine then she startled 4 times and awoke crying. I tried to sooth her but had to pick her up she was screeching herself hoarse. We did that for another hour until I've given up trying to get her down and am just letting her sleep on my shoulder.

I guess she was still tired at 5.15 and although happy, uncomfortable so couldn't keep sleeping. Then has just got progressively more tired until now and she's conked out. I haven't fed her since 8am so this likely won't be along nap. I feel terrible that she gets so upset but pursue sleep anyway because I know it's the only thing that she needs/wants. She's really fussy and whining if I try and do anything else with her (feed, play, put her down).

So tomorrow if she wakes at 5.15/5.30 I'll try and get her back down asap and see how that goes. Not hopeful for the rest of today given how bad this morning has been already. Or maybe because she's having a proper nap now it'll be easier the rest of the day. I'll aim for 2hrs A time.

I really am loosing my mind though. We go out but not to any groups because they always seem to clash with her either just fallen asleep on me or her planned A time will come to a close in the middle of a session. Gah.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 14, 2017, 06:50:54 am
Well no, that wasn't a good start to the day. She slept for 1hr 20. I offered sleep at A 1.30, 1.40, 1.45, 2hrs and she finally went at A 2.20 for 20mins (in the sling). Then at A 1.40 for 1hr30 (nursed to sleep). Again, I woke her up as it was getting too close to BT.

Last night was a bit better but this morning has been bad.

BT 18.30
S 19.30 - 23.41
E 23.42 - 23.52
S 00.05 - 03.50
E 03.52 - 04.10
S 05.10 - 05.40 between 04.10 and 05.10 I burped thoroughly thinking I'd try and get everything up so she didn't wake every hour from 5am. She got progressively more awake with every attempt. I did get two big burps up and a few farts though so thought that would surely mean a longer sleep but no.

When she woke at 05.40 she was not hungry so I started rocking to her her back off. But she got hiccups so I put her on her tummy to help them pass and they finally did at about 06.15 so started rocking again and she was panting a sure sign she's now OT anyway I kept going, she brought up quite a bit of milk then fell asleep, I put her down and she woke right back up again happy. I left her there and took 10mins to calm down. 
E 07.20 - 07.30
I've just fed her and she's come off after burying her face in my chest, I've tried rocking and she's screaming so I'm letting her lie on the bed sucking her fingers whilst I decide what to do.

She's not demonstrated any discomfort from poo she's just really awake yet very tired. Yet won't rest. I tried a few different rocking positions last night but none worked really so I went back to on the shoulder as it's most comfortable for me.

I don't know what this will mean for today. With so much OT running in the background I'm pretty sure A 1.45 is going to be too long. If I just go by her signals she's always demonstrating she's tired. Yesterday she was always rubbing her eyes, always yawning and always fussing. I pretty much didn't put her down the whole day.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 21, 2017, 17:08:07 pm
Not sure if anyone is still following this thread but I thought I'd post a few developments...

Definitely an improvement in naps I think. I mean, now there are some and she falls asleep pretty quickly at A 1.40, I start WD at 1.30. Do you think that because this is working so much better that I may have finally got rid of all the chronic overtiredness running in the background? Gosh I hope so. Nighttimes can take a bit longer to put her to sleep so I start at 1.25 which is quite tight since her bath and massage and books can take a while after some play time, but it IS working much better. After a few minutes she'll do two or so yawns, then a kind of whine/groan for a bit before she drops off. Sometimes no crying!!! I've found that singing seems to be a distraction, so I'm humming the same tune over and over and it seems to work.

Night times are averaging, 8hrs per night, so still too little. Down at 7.45 (am working to bring this back to 7pm but the last nap of the day is happening too late at the moment). Today I've gently woken her from her 45mins cat nap at 5.30pm, hoping to get her down for 7/7.10pm. NF at around midnight, then 4am and then it gets a bit messy. After the NF at 4am she'll only sleep for another hour max so her WU is pretty much around 5.15 and she's not hungry she's just wide awake and won't go back down. I've tried a few things over the past week; leaving her to see what she does (just plays happily in her basket), rocking her to sleep (does not work, or she'll fall asleep and then as soon as I put her down wake up again), bringing her into bed with us (just plays happily). So, not sure what to do with this. I usually get her to sleep for another hour at 1.40.

She doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with wind or poo any more. I don't think it's what wakes her in the AM at 5.15ish? and she has two big feeds in the night before going back for a decent time? There have been a few nights when she's woken more frequently at night but I've kept the nursing's to 2 per night so as to cut down the unnecessary nursing to sleep - rocking her instead. Is that right? However there have also been a few times when she's woken unhappy and its like she was enjoying her sleep but something disturbed her - I'm not sure what. Typically this happens 1.50hrs into her night sleep. I rock her back to sleep. Sometimes she's quite cross so it can take up to 45mins to calm her and then put her down.

She's still doing a lot of hand gnawing and I'm not sure if its teething or a sleepy cue as it gets more intense when she's tired. Her sleep doesn't seem to have been affected by the insane heat here, which is good.

Stuff that isn't going so well:
i am still rocking and bouncing to sleep but as of this week have stopped nursing to drowsy/sleep successfully.
dd goes down fine for the night in her basket but I can't get her down for naps, she has to be held. If she's in the pushchair and I've stopped she'll wake at 40mins. If I'm on the sofa holding her she'll stir quite a bit and it's only really at 1.40 that she'll fall into a non fidgety sleep, and I typically wake her at 2.10. I pat her when she stirs and she settles. In the sling she'll still only do 20mins.

I need to research the HTTJ thing. Would that be applicable to just independent sleep? Because the motion of the pushchair or me holding her acts as a comfort to ease her transition? Putting her in her swaddle for naps didn't make any difference to her willingness to go down sadly. She's still startling quite a lot but the swaddle means it doesn't wake her. But when I do get her down for an nap on her own she'll startle awake, on Monday it was after 15mins.

We went in the car for the first time in 7 weeks at the weekend and she didn't sleep hardly at all, despite me timing it to coincide with A 1.40 coming to an end. When she does miss a nap like this, I just keep an eye on her sleepy signs and the clock and offer sleep when I see cues. Typically she will fall asleep in 10mins at A 1.10 or 1.20. She doesn't sleep for any less time following one of these shortened A times. Is this the right thing to do?

I'm not sure what to tackle next? Independent sleep? More night sleep? Later morning wake-ups? Getting rid of bouncing and rocking?!
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 22, 2017, 19:00:49 pm
​Ok, so I read some other people's posts and saw that not wanting to go down is a sign of OT as it's easier for babies to transition when held? So I guess that means I still have some OT in the background D: how will I know when all that residual OT has gone?!

This was last night​:​

BT 18.20
S 17.25 - 02.02
E 02.02 - 02.17
S 02.25 - 4.16
E 04.16 - 04.35
Tried to get back to sleep after E but she got hiccups after winding. Put her down at 5.15, she woke smiling, down again at 5.30, she woke smiling so left her to play in her basket.
A 1hr 40
S 06.25 - 07.55

E ​08.10 - 08.20​
A 1hr 40
S 09.35 - 10.00 (​first ​WD 7mins) tried 3 times to ​put​ her down but she woke each time so let her sleep on my shoulder​. ​
S 10.20 - 10.55

E ​10.55 - 11.05​
A 1hr 50
S 12.35 - 13.21 couldn't extend. I guess this was at OT nap because of the interrupted nap earlier which meant when she finally slept at 10.20 it was actually A 2hr 25 which is way too long for her​. ​And also because of t​hat interrupted sleep as I tried to get her down this morning, her WD took longer 15mins, so by the time she ​actually fell asleep was OT​? ​Also on my shoulder.

E ​13.22 - 13.27​
A ​1hr 30
S 14.49 - 16.20 started WD at 1hr 20 because she was really cranky and kept rubbing her nose and eyes. I know this is a short A time and you said in one of your earlier posts not to go for short A times as I'll just get UT naps but I wasn't sure how to extend? She didn't wake happy, but I couldn't get her back to sleep.

E 16.20 - 16.45 I basically let her 'rest' at the breast, she wouldn't unlatch every time I tried. I didn't want to try for another nap as it would get too close to BT. What should I have done?

I also kept her going too long so the evening looked like this:

BT 18.00
​E​ 18.30 - 18.45
​A​ 2hr 40 I know.
​S just put her down at 19.25​. Started WD at 18.45 but she was a sorts of active, cooing, rubbing her eyes, burying her head in my neck... so I'm not sure how long she will stay down for tonight.

Basically I think the day deteriorated because of the super early WU and then subsequent OT naps. How could I have got back on track? Should I be working to bring BT even earlier to make up for the early WU so she is having a 12hr day instead of a 15hr day? I also know you said these short naps might improve once I push to A 2hrs but I don't know how to get there when she's super ready for sleep at 1hr 30.

Maybe I need to just keep APOP for the naps until I get to a more suitable A time for her age (18wks) and then work to tackle better nights?

I know I shouldn't be thinking about it but I'm sooo aware of the ticking clock, as in after 6months it'll be hard to change some of these bad habits.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 23, 2017, 08:09:27 am
S 17.25 - 02.02
This is a great stretch! This is a solid stretch of almost as much sleep as she was having in 24hr when you first posted.

E 04.16 - 04.35 Tried to get back to sleep after E but she got hiccups after winding. Put her down at 5.15, she woke smiling, down again at 5.30, she woke smiling so left her to play in her basket. A 1hr 40 S 06.25 - 07.55
This here I'd still call night with extended happy wakings rather than saying she got up for the day at 4:35 and had a 1:40 A time given that you about an hour trying to get her back to sleep.

S 12.35 - 13.21 couldn't extend.
This here is a 45min nap - classically UT or 4 month old cannot transition from cycle to next.

A 1hr 40 S 09.35 - 10.00 (​first ​WD 7mins) tried 3 times to ​put​ her down but she woke each time so let her sleep on my shoulder​. ​S 10.20 - 10.55
This I think might be UT too.

A ​1hr 30 S 14.49 - 16.20 started WD at 1hr 20 because she was really cranky and kept rubbing her nose and eyes. I know this is a short A time and you said in one of your earlier posts not to go for short A times as I'll just get UT naps but I wasn't sure how to extend? She didn't wake happy, but I couldn't get her back to sleep.
Its ok to reduce A times a bit if she's had a short nap, just don't start the day off with a short A time because that perpetuates the problem. This looks like a 1.5hr nap to me. Babies will not always wake happy, even if their routine is perfect. That's not necessarily a good yardstick for deciding if the nap was good. My son screamed when he woke if things were different in his room (ie. if I had been there when he fell asleep, he wasn't happy if I wasn't there when he woke.)

BT 18.00​E​ 18.30 - 18.45
What do you mean by BT here? BT to me is baby is being laid into bed for sleep having had pre-bed routine including feed.

I didn't want to try for another nap as it would get too close to BT. What should I have done?
I think that's reasonable. I think I'd have aimed to have her in bed asleep for the night at 6:30pm or done a catnap for say 30-45min at 6pm then aimed for asleep in bed at 8pm.

I know I shouldn't be thinking about it but I'm sooo aware of the ticking clock, as in after 6months it'll be hard to change some of these bad habits.
You're not working from a completely awful place though, you've made a lot of progress and you can take the long view so I think you'll be ok. Its not actually necessarily all difficult at 6 month or after that. I got DS from sleeping with props to independent sleep in a couple of weeks at 5 months (didn't find this website til then and I was in all sorts of trouble) and it was fine. Try not to work yourself up too much about that.

I suggest a plan going forward that looks a bit like this:
1. Assume that WU is around 7-8am, yk, the end of what you're currently calling your first nap.
2. If she's happy in bed, leave her if its in the small hours of the morning. Its so frustrating for you and for her and actually counterproductive for you to be trying to get her to sleep at that hour. If she's upset, attend to her of course but if she's happily lying in bed gurgling at 5am, leave her to it.
3. From that 7-8am WU, do 2hr A time then offer a nap. Offer it however you need to, to get her to sleep but I suspect you'll have some luck with shush/pat or similar in a familiar sleeping place like wherever she falls asleep at night.
4. Reduce A times if necessary to no less than 1:30 but preferably 1:45 if she's had a short nap. If she then takes a long nap, do 2hr A time thereafter.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 23, 2017, 19:23:19 pm
This is a great stretch! This is a solid stretch of almost as much sleep as she was having in 24hr when you first posted.
Major TYPO that should have said 19.25 - 02.20 *sad face*

This here is a 45min nap - classically UT or 4 month old cannot transition from cycle to next.
Is there a big difference between transitioning from one cycle to the next at night and in the day then?!

Its ok to reduce A times a bit if she's had a short nap
Ok cool! I think I need to do a shorter A time after the last nap and before BT.

What do you mean by BT here? BT to me is baby is being laid into bed for sleep having had pre-bed routine including feed.
Ahh, my mistake. I have been calling BT the bed time routine, so when I start the bath, feed, book routine. So in that example, I did all of that and rocking to sleep, between 18.00 - 19.25.

You're not working from a completely awful place though, you've made a lot of progress and you can take the long view so I think you'll be ok. Its not actually necessarily all difficult at 6 month or after that. I got DS from sleeping with props to independent sleep in a couple of weeks at 5 months (didn't find this website til then and I was in all sorts of trouble) and it was fine. Try not to work yourself up too much about that.
Thank you! I needed to hear that!

2. If she's happy in bed, leave her if its in the small hours of the morning. Its so frustrating for you and for her and actually counterproductive for you to be trying to get her to sleep at that hour. If she's upset, attend to her of course but if she's happily lying in bed gurgling at 5am, leave her to it.
Ok, yes. As you'll see from previous posts, it's just too much at that time putting her down twice and her waking smiling twice, I have to take 5 for myself and come back, but she is always really happy so yep, I'll leave her there.

Thanks for the plan of action. I will jump on it.
4. Reduce A times if necessary to no less than 1:30 but preferably 1:45 if she's had a short nap. If she then takes a long nap, do 2hr A time thereafter.
Ok. Wish I'd read this earlier..... just put her down for the night (A 1.45), I worked really hard to get her to have an almost 2hr nap this afternoon, lots of patting and resettling twice. That was a good? but interrupted nap, so perhaps I should have done A 2hrs. We'll see how long she's down for tonight.

She only had a short 25mins nap around 1pm and a 1hr nap 9-10am, after her usual 5.30am wake up so I'm thinking lots of OT floating around. Last night was the worst in about 6 weeks, she woke at 23.45 after 4.5hrs sleep and it wasn't until 2am that I finally gave in and brought her in bed with us where she comfort sucked for an hour before sleeping until 5.30am.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 23, 2017, 20:26:04 pm
Major TYPO that should have said 19.25 - 02.20 *sad face*
You mean 20:20? :( 1 hr then...'

Is there a big difference between transitioning from one cycle to the next at night and in the day then?!
Yes, day and night sleep are different.

I worked really hard to get her to have an almost 2hr nap this afternoon, lots of patting and resettling twice.
SO a 1:30 nap at this age is as good as a 2hr nap. Try not to get too hung up on the 2hr length of nap with a 2hr A time in the 4hr EASY - its really just to make the clock work easier I think, can't recall many babies who magically sleep 2hr instead of 1.5 when they go to 2hr A times.

This may seem an odd question given the heat there at the moment is making news here... are you cooling her room too much and she's cold in the middle of the night?
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 24, 2017, 18:51:23 pm
You mean 20:20?  1 hr then...'

No, it was until 02.20 - so almost 7hrs

Yes, day and night sleep are different.
Gah! Ok. So now I'm a bit confused as to what to tackle next. Whether to take another week of trying to get her to sleep as much as possible in the day in the hope that this works on the sleep debt / overtiredness overhang. That's what I did last week and it doesn't seem to have worked too well, one day she had 4hrs sleep in the day and a good ish night, today for example, she's had one 20min nap and two 30min naps since waking up at 3.30am. That was kind of the worst night ever, tbh.

We have appointments on Monday and Friday which I need to keep, but other than that her sleep can take absolute priority, so I might try do APOP (holding her) for another week and see what happens. Then, I need to look to independent sleep / teaching her how to link up her sleep cycles?

This may seem an odd question given the heat there at the moment is making news here... are you cooling her room too much and she's cold in the middle of the night?
Hmmm... I don't think so... It's still 21degrees in our bedroom and she's sleeping in her swaddle (just the arms part) to stop her from startling fully. One good thing, because it's been so hot we've had the windows open a lot and the builders are still working next door but she's really good at sleeping through the noise now, yay! Today I got her off to sleep in a really busy restaurant in the sling, but then as soon as 20mins passed she was wide awake again, sigh.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on June 25, 2017, 22:37:29 pm
Today I got her off to sleep in a really busy restaurant in the sling, but then as soon as 20mins passed she was wide awake again, sigh.
This is likely overstimulation - hard to avoid in a restaurant :(

I think probably work on getting the routine down pat. I thinking you can try A times of ~2hr and see if you can get her reliably falling asleep at nap time. Once that's happening with APOP, then its much easier to work towards getting her to sleep more independently.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on June 29, 2017, 19:07:31 pm
Hmmm well, we thought things couldn't get worse...

The last few days have been really rough - max 30min naps with APOP and frequent night awakenings - 3 between 7.30pm and 5.30am. I think I know that the midnight ish wake is from hunger, but the 3am and 4am ones are certainly not but dd gets soooo cross if I just pick her up and bounce. If I leave her, as I have been doing at the 4.30am wake up until 6am, she's generally fine, just kicking around, cooing and babbling. So I am relaxing because I'm lying down but I'm not exactly relaxed or sleeping and I know she's tired as her babbling is punctuated with yawns. But as you said it is counterproductive me trying to get her back to sleep. But it means she's ready for a nap at 7.10am ish.

dd really cannot make it to A 2hrs. I tired really hard on saturday and sunday but she was just soooo upset. I did WD at 1.45 and she cried so hard I knew its because she wanted to be sleeping already. The rest of the week has really been out of kilter because 2 bad days at the weekend threw those nights off and the last few days have been worse than usual. I'm not sure what to do, go back to 1.45 or stick at 2hrs for a few more days as she might need time to settle in to it? She did one 40min nap in the pushchair and woke unhappy, I rushed home as couldn't settle her crying in the park. She cried the whole way back ~12mins or so, then when we got back I tried to bounce her as it was obvious she was still tired but she wasn't happy so I just walked around the garden with her a bit to calm her down and then we went inside again to play. But then she was really cranky and ready for another nap at A 1.25!

Monday and Wednesday night I bounced her to sleep and put her down but she work 20/25 mins later. I've found if she's woken up OT, if I pick her up her cries escalate really quickly to full volume so that's why I shhhh patted her (actually she doesn't seem to like the pat, I just had my hand on her tummy) and she did go to sleep but a few q's:

- How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up? On Wednesday she was just whining/ tired moan with some periods of quiet and yawning, on Monday it was quite a bit of crying.
- On Tuesday night she went down with bouncing and stayed down until her midnight feed. So no shhh pat like Monday and Wednesday, is that classed as being inconsistent? Tonight she's gone down the same with no shhh pat again but if she wakes I will use it.
- On one of the BW threads about how to shhh pat is says if no sleep within 45mins to feed and start again, would you advise that in this situation?

 
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 01, 2017, 21:46:23 pm
I think I know that the midnight ish wake is from hunger, but the 3am and 4am ones are certainly not
Are you feeding at the 3am one? Now you're getting better stretches, you're possibly up against gas again with the 4/4:30 WU. Try lying back to feed at night if you're not already and really make the effort with the burping, esp. at 3am.

Ok, so 1:45 seems to be a good place to stick for now. You can always revisit extending the A time in smaller chunks of time, even 5min every couple of days if she's very sensitive to extra A time. 1:25 A time isn't unreasonable after a short nap.

I've found if she's woken up OT, if I pick her up her cries escalate really quickly to full volume so that's why I shhhh patted her (actually she doesn't seem to like the pat, I just had my hand on her tummy)
Great observation - and really good to see you adjusting shush/pat to her liking.

How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up? On Wednesday she was just whining/ tired moan with some periods of quiet and yawning, on Monday it was quite a bit of crying.
It depends upon the cry - if she's mantra crying/moaning, keep helping her off to sleep. If she's distressed and sleep is really unlikely, its a bit pointless, yk?

On one of the BW threads about how to shhh pat is says if no sleep within 45mins to feed and start again, would you advise that in this situation?
This is more specific to naps than nights, I think. It tends to suit people who have significantly too short an A time better. 45min is a long time to be doing shush/pat with a crying baby too, so I tend not to recommend going for that long, especially when you know how long she typically takes to fall asleep now.

On Tuesday night she went down with bouncing and stayed down until her midnight feed. So no shhh pat like Monday and Wednesday, is that classed as being inconsistent? Tonight she's gone down the same with no shhh pat again but if she wakes I will use it.
No, you're using the same method of going to sleep for night sleep each day. Just one day,, she wasn't quite so OT or wasn't OS and stayed asleep.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: annesmama on July 03, 2017, 20:08:58 pm
- How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up?

I'm always curious about this. With my LO, I've found that if it's going to work, it's noticeable almost immediately (cries decrease in intensity, start getting further apart). It's like she figures out, "Ah! If I focus on that, I'll be able to sleep." If cries get worse or stay the same, I haven't found that sticking with it helps, although to be fair I can't stand doing it very long. I guess I don't like the idea of her crying herself till she's so tired she passes out - I wouldn't call that "working", you know?
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 05, 2017, 08:53:47 am
Are you feeding at the 3am one? Now you're getting better stretches, you're possibly up against gas again with the 4/4:30 WU. Try lying back to feed at night if you're not already and really make the effort with the burping, esp. at 3am.

I have been yes D: the 4.30am starts we've been having are killing me at the moment, I just can't bear to rock her or shush pat her back to sleep at that hour.

Last night was typical of how things are now:
BT 19.28
S 19.28 - 23.28
E 5mins!!!
S 23.35 - 01.55
E 15mins
S 02.15 - 04.33
Back rub to help with poo (didn't come)
S 05.34 - 06.21 settled with shhh pat took 30mins of tired moaning and bad crying like she was annoyed not to be asleep already (she does that a lot for naps now)

E 16mins (then pooped)
A 1.40
S 08.11 - 09.03
Usually at the 4.30am wake up I bring her into bed with us and she just comfort sucks until the poo comes. This morning I decided to try shhh pat in our bed as it was clear she wasn't hungry or the poo ready so I persevered and she slept for 50mins before waking truly hungry.

I really don't know what to do. I'm trying to APOP for naps (bounce and hold through out duration) and just concentrate on nights being a bit better. She's falling asleep pretty easily after her night feed but it's mostly rocking rather than ssshhh pat (which I only use if she wakes up after an hour or less). I am still trying to bring that BT earlier but the last nap of the day is still a (too) long one. So I'm going to try shhh pat instead of rocking tonight after her bath and doing the two NF but repeating shhh pat at 4.30am as I did this morning. I'll try and do it in her bed rather than bringing her into ours?

I've stopped with the infacol as I don't think it was doing anything.
WAAA I just want to see some progress!
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 05, 2017, 22:20:26 pm
Ok, I really think pushing those A times, most particularly the first one will help with the 4:30 waking and the length of that first nap and then hopefully should flow through the rest of the day. Just try an extra 5 min every 2 days and see if that helps her cope ok with the increase - she certainly seems sensitive to a 15min increase but these little ones should be ok.

You're in a cycle where the nights won't get much better til the days to and vice versa. If I look at that night, really you've an approx. 11hr night from 7:30 til 6:30. I think we can reasonably confidently call that long happy waking in the early hours one that is related to insufficient A time, especially the first.

It is good that she's getting a long nap in there somewhere and 7:30 isn't a bad BT unless its not working for you.

I think the reason you're getting a long nap in the afternoon is the little bit of extra tiredness she's building from the short A times and short nap through the day.

I'll try and do it in her bed rather than bringing her into ours?
Good plan - if you can stick it out. Hugs xx Up at that hour is a really time to make decisions when you really just want to be in your warm bed sleeping.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 07, 2017, 09:15:03 am
Thank you for your reply.
It is good that she's getting a long nap in there somewhere and 7:30 isn't a bad BT unless its not working for you.

Well my thinking was that she goes down easiest at night and mostly stays down so why not try to get a bit more sleep out of her when she's most used to sleeping?

The last days have been quite bad, max 30min naps but the last two nights better?

Wednesday
BT 18.45 (gentle rocking to drowsy) shhhh pat worked, 25mins of mantra crying and then silence, I couldn't actually believe it.
S 19.08 - 23.11
E
S 23.30 - 01.10 - trapped wind. I did this new colic massage I learnt at baby massage and it worked a dream when she woke up
E
S 01.40 - 04.21
E - I held my breath this whole feed because this is usually the time her eyes will pop open and it's game over.
S 04.40 - 05.35 I got a lie in!!!
Then the rest of the day was just silly missed windows at 1.40 then 30mins sleeps on my shoulder.

Thursday, last night
BT 18.30
S 18.47 - 00.22 pretty sure she woke at 22.33 but I remember thinking 'nope, too soon' and lying there and next thing I knew it was 2hrs later so either I dreamt it or she was just making noises in her sleep or.... she self settled.

E
S 00.40 - 03.46
E thorough burp which woke her up way too much. I rocked her for 10mins and she babbled and blew raspberries (new trick) then I just put her down in her basket at 04.17 and got into bed myself. I just couldn't and if she was happy then I didn't need to worry right now. I turned on this shhhhh sound app. It took her 45mins but she did put herself to sleep. No crying at all, just babbling and then silence.
S 05.00 - 05.46

So what does it meannnnnnnnn? Is she learning to do it? It takes between 20 and 45 mins to work but that's at times when she knows it's time for sleep... should I be putting her down for naps at 1.20hr with a view to her being asleep at 1.40hrs or earlier? Shall I stick her and try and get shhh pat to work even better for nights before even stopping APOP for naps? Or am I being inconsistent by not doing naps and bedtime at the same time? But I remember you saying naps and BT are completely different.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 08, 2017, 03:22:35 am
Or am I being inconsistent by not doing naps and bedtime at the same time? But I remember you saying naps and BT are completely different.
Naps and BT are different. Ideally you would do them all the same but lets face it,  the naps will be gone one day ;)

S 00.40 - 03.46 E thorough burp which woke her up way too much. I rocked her for 10mins and she babbled and blew raspberries (new trick) then I just put her down in her basket at 04.17 and got into bed myself. I just couldn't and if she was happy then I didn't need to worry right now. I turned on this shhhhh sound app. It took her 45mins but she did put herself to sleep. No crying at all, just babbling and then silence. S 05.00 - 05.46
This is great - she's happy, you're lying down and she's self-settling.

Is she learning to do it?
Yes, I think so. This bodes well for naps if you want to try even just one independent nap in the day.

should I be putting her down for naps at 1.20hr with a view to her being asleep at 1.40hrs or earlier?
No, in reality, A times should be more than that and she will probably complain about being put down at 1:20 A time because she's UT.

Can you write out a day and a night and we'll see what you can tweak. How old is LO now?
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 10, 2017, 10:17:51 am
I'm going to record today as we were at a party on Saturday night, first ever, and I knew the night would be rough and yesterday need more APOPing than ever so not a true picture of where we are I didn't think.

The self settling has worked twice more both times after the 2nd feed of the night. Also, easing trapped wind at the 2nd night feed seems to deliver and that early morning poop is now not so distressing for her.

New problem however, I'm not sure what time she's waking in the morning so having to rely on her sleepy cues to tell me that she's tired for her first nap. As soon as I've checked that she's asleep (4.15am this morning) I go to sleep and woke at 6.15 this morning to her babbling and playing but wasn't sure how long she'd been happily like that! Oops. I guess time will tell me what her average wake-up time could be no wind issues permitting.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 11, 2017, 03:24:24 am
New problem however, I'm not sure what time she's waking in the morning
Nice new problem to have :) For this, you can watch her for cues or just go from when you get her up if she tolerates it.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 11, 2017, 08:32:51 am
Ok here goes, this is Sunday night to Tuesday morning.

BT 19.30 - accidentally nursed to sleep
S 19.34 - 23.51
E 23.52 - 00.06
S 00.11 - 03.31
E 03.33 - 03.45 thorough burp and tummy massage (lots out both ends)
S 04.17 - ? Really not sure what time she woke up... I put her down awake at 04.01 and listened to her getting comfortable until 04.17 checked she was asleep, so I went to sleep.

E 06.15 - 06.35
A ?
S 07.40 - 08.15 I guessed it had been enough A time based on her usually waking at 05.30ish, and just went with one big nose rub as my cue to offer sleep. I didn't try to put her down for this one as I wasn't sure what A time we were at so didn't want to distress her further if she was OT.

E 08.17 - 08. 30
A 2hrs
E 09.30 - 09.35
S 10.17 -?  I put her in her basket awake at 10.05, in sleep suit and after a few cuddles and bounces. She mantra cried  a bit and then fell asleep with shhh pat. (There were no yawns, usually mid settle there are yawns.) I kept my hand on her, waiting for her to melt in to the basket but instead she kept startling.

Startled at 10.24, 29, 31, 32, 34, 39, 40, 43, 48 (whimpering)

Mantra crying 10.50 - 11.00, 11.02

Actual tired crying after more startling 11.10 - 11.13

Fell asleep again at 11.20

Startled at 37, Crying at 40

Startled af 42, 46, 50 (I held her arm down a bit) 58, whimpering

I picked her up at 1200.

E 12.04 - 12.10

S 12.21 - 13.11 I didn't try to put her down this time.

A 2hr10

E 14.50 - 15.03

S 15.21 - 15.52, similar thing to the morning. I put her in her basket at 15.06, fell asleep with shhhh pat but then startled.

Startled at 15.22, 24, 30, 36, 39,

crying 47, I picked her up.

S 16.06 - 17.12 settled on my shoulder, didn't try to put her down.

E 17.16 - 17.28 fell asleep nursing so I put her down in basket wanting to wake her (that usually works for this last nap) she stretched as I bent over her basket, opened her eyes as I put her down, stretched again and fell asleep. 

S 17.32 - 18.25 No startling, no shhh pat, literally just plonked her down as I needed the loo, came back as she was fast asleep. I let her sleep through one cycle, mostly out of curiosity but woke her as it was pushing BT too late.

Last night was a bit messy as dh came home just before she was about to get in the bath so she was a bit excitable and took a long time to nurse, kept coming off and looking at the door, and settle. I did a thorough massage and burp though as she hadn't pooped yesterday (unusual as she usually has at least 2 per day).

BT 20.35

Last night.

S 20.35 - 23.41

E 23.43 - 23.50

S 23.55 - 03.04

E 03.05 - 03.19 thorough burp and massage, nothing. Put down awake at 03.24

S ? - 06.05 I'm not sure what time she actually fell asleep as I just fell asleep as soon as she was down. I woke with a start at 04.20 and she was well asleep. Dh said it took a while but he has a very  imaginative sense of time.

She's 5 months on Thursday.

What do you think?


Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 12, 2017, 04:33:14 am
Wow, she's sleeping a lot more than she used to :) She does still seem to be pretty unsettled during some of those naps though.

I think the unsettled naps followed by good solid sleeps may well be that she's a bit overstimulated at nap time. I found even just having the TV on as background wound DS up when he was that small.

Anyway, my thoughts re: routine would be to try something like this:

6ish - WU, E
8 - nap I'd set this and just do the first nap no earlier than 8 regardless of when she wakes and then move it 5min later every few days for a while. That will help encourage her to sleep better through those early hours of the morning and also separate night from morning more effectively for her.
9:30 - E
11:45 - nap
1:15 - E
3:30 - nap
5 - E
7/7:15 - asleep in bed for the night

That is approx. 2:15 A times with 1.5hr naps - obviously you would shift it to suit if she were to have a longer nap.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 13, 2017, 08:32:34 am
Wow, she's sleeping a lot more than she used to
Yes... that is what I keep clinging to when the days are so hard, at least it's more sleep!

I think the unsettled naps followed by good solid sleeps may well be that she's a bit overstimulated at nap time. I found even just having the TV on as background wound DS up when he was that small.
I can't think what it could be. I mean, for the last 4 days we've just stayed at home and played with the same 6 or so toys. I have the radio on but no tv. Sometimes we look out the window to the garden. We've read the same book every night. I do get her to practice rolling over and help her a bit but that's it. It could not be more boring!

Yesterday we went out because I'd been in with her for 4 days and needed to get out of the house. I timed it well I think, we had 15 mins of strolling in the pushchair but then she only did a 30min nap and was really really upset when I tried to get her back in it to come home after feeding. I had to pick her up 11 times in the 13min walk. She did the same with dh when he took her out at the weekend for the first time ever! I hoovered!!!! simple pleasures!!!!

8 - nap I'd set this and just do the first nap no earlier than 8 regardless of when she wakes and then move it 5min later every few days for a while. That will help encourage her to sleep better through those early hours of the morning and also separate night from morning more effectively for her.
Ok, I will do that and be more strict with bath time. So no matter what time she falls asleep for the last nap, I'll wake her at 5.15pm so BT doesn't go later than 7/7.15.

Routine looks a dream, if only... sigh.

Last two nights have been rough, I let her have that longer late nap APOP, until 6pm which already meant BT would be 8pm. Settled successfully in 15mins with ssshhhh pat but then she was up at 9.30, I don't know why at all. I gave her a little hug and put her back down and went off to sleep fine until:

NW 23.55 feed
NW 02.25 feed
NW 04.36 - really bad crying. I literally couldn't settle her until 06.30. I really don't know what it was. I tried ssshhh pat to start with, then PUPD, then just a little walk around the room in the dark which seemed to work her up further. PD awful crying, the kind I haven't heard for a long time. Back arching so I couldn't really do a back rub to see if it was a bad burp. I gave her gripe water, teething gel... Tried to do the tummy massage - nothing. Finally brought her into bed with us where she babbled. Then I fed her at 06.30 and she fed for a minute before falling asleep for 20 mins and then fed and then 30 mins sleep and then fed and I don't know what, I was too tired to keep track. She was awake at 08.30 proper and all smiles. She's just pooped at 09.11 but no leg kicking so I don't think that's what was up?

Agh... right. I'm sticking with your routine at least the first nap and BT parts and see how that goes.

She did have a long independent sleep on Tuesday, an hour on my shoulder and then woke a bit unhappy when I tried to bounce her back, and so I put her down in the basket and off she went for another 2hrs (no startling) so an almost 3hrs nap in the morning. But that was followed by a silly 20mins as the next one (down with shhhh pat, startled awake) and then refused the last so I did BT at 7pm which led to NW at 9pm, midnight, 3am before she work at 5.45am and I left her until 6.15am babbling before picking her up.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 13, 2017, 10:19:20 am
Still a bit inconsistent for you then :( Its hard when every day is so unpredictable. Do make sure you get out and about a bit for yourself - keeping yourself sane is really important.

See how you go with that set first nap. FX it helps! You've been so patient and persistent.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 19, 2017, 09:43:34 am
Well, little or no improvement here but at least we're getting some consistency?

Good thing is she's started waking up a little later, around 6.30 / 7am in the morning which is good. I think cutting short the last nap at 17.15 - 17.30 is making a difference as she's really tired during bath time and goes down in about 20mins which is soooooo much better than the 2+hrs it was taking.

The first nap at 8am is touch and go. Two mornings out of 5 she's gone down for 35mins, one morning literally 4 mins and then she was up smiling, the other two mornings she just fought it so I gave up. I'll keep trying.

She's teething pretty bad now, she NWs are x4 but still only 2 of those are NF. The first NW is around 2.5/3.5hrs since she went down at about 21.30/22.30. I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?

We recently (3 days ago) introduced a lovey. Reason being we need to transition her to a cot soon as she's getting too tall for her basket (though it's good it's snug at the moment because she's practicing rolling like all.day.long.). We thought it would be good for her to have a familiar object to take from one sleep location to another so it's not allllll new? Don't really know how to use it but I've been propping it up to read our bed time story with us and I kind of rub it on her skin a bit at nap time and tell her it's time for sleep so hopefully she's start to associate it with sleep in a month or two.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 20, 2017, 04:55:03 am
If she's waking at 6:30/7am now, you can shift that first nap later - somewhere nearer 8:30/9.
the other two mornings she just fought it so I gave up. I'll keep trying.
Again, probably fighting nap due to UT - later nap should help. The idea of the 8am nap was that it was half an hour later than you were doing and it was to pull her WU later.

I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?
Likely, yes.

Yes, I put the whole basket in the cot so DS was sleeping in the same basket but getting used to the room and the cot bars, etc. The transition to remove the basket was pretty easy thereafter.

Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 22, 2017, 13:06:13 pm
I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?

I take that back... Last couple of nights we've been having 4x wake-ups but nothing settles her apart from the breast. Not ssshh pat, not bouncing her to sleep then laying her down, not teething gel and a hug.

Naps have been so rubbish I'm embarrassed to post our EASY. She's fighting them so hard again it's horrible, like we're back to square one. If she does nap it's max 35 mins on my shoulder or in the pushchair. A times of 2.10, 2, 1.45 in desperation. I've just put her in the basket for a nap A 1.40 because she was rubbing her eyes off and she's doing this strain squeal and clawing at the sides. I don't know whether to leave her or ssshhh pat or what. We had this this morning and last night. Eventually last night after PUPD she went off with ssshhh pat. This morning after escalating to crying I just held her instead.

I really need to get away from the sleeping on my shoulder because she's uncomfortable I can tell and I just think, well if went down you'd be so much more comfortable!

I'm doing a mini bedtime routine for each nap now too. Just close the curtains, read a short book with lovey and then put down to shhh pat. It works at night so maybe a truncated version as WD will help? Although, tbh, I don't think she doesn't know it's nap time and what's expected of her she just doesn't want to do it. In the middle of the night after a feed I am still putting her down awake and and she goes off without any shhh pat so I know she can do it.

I'm persevering with the 8am earliest nap and the 4.30pm sleep woken at 5.15. Usually this is her best sleep of the day though I do feel really mean waking her after only 15mins but bedtime can't get later I'm just so tired myself I need an hour to decompress before she wakes around 9.30.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 22, 2017, 22:38:03 pm
I really think she might be fighting those naps due to UT, at least earlier in the day. Often that's the case when naps are rubbish all day and the last nap of the day is the best one. Average A times at 5 months are 2:15-2:30, so there's scope for increase if she can manage it. I may be tricky the first few days because she's used to shorter A times but give it a go - min. 2hr after a short nap too - you do need to reduce the A time after a short nap but usually not by much.

Its possible the upset is related to teething - have you tried baby paracetamol - 20min before nap time? That may help as it should last longer than teething gel.

Its possible she's in a growth spurt and needs a topup feed... I'm clutching at straws here, I'm sorry you're in a rough patch again :(
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on July 23, 2017, 10:03:23 am
Thank you. I appreciate it. Yes I have her some teething granuals last night which have a numbing effect. I was about to give her calpol but didn't want to mix too many things in her stomach? Maybe I am being a bit sensitive, just thought with the gripe water as well it might give her a tummy upset.

Last night she was up 4 times;

BT 7pm
S 7 - 9.10
E
S 9.40 - 10.40
E didn't feed initially as thought it could be wind / teeth. Gave her gel and did the tummy massage which helped. Then just lots of crying during PUPD. It had been two hours so I figured she could be hungry so fed her.
S 00.30 - 3.40
E
S 4 - 5.30
E
S 6 - 6.15

E 7.30
A 2hrs just
S 8.13 - 9.00 (put her down but she kicked during ssshhh pat then started whinging then crying so slept on my shoulder.

Just trying to get her down again now.
Yesterday I spent an hour getting her down for an independent nap with PUPD and she slept for 20mins before waking very upset and couldn't get her down again. She woke at 15.20. I must admit I didn't even try to get her having a cat nap, it was too much. So that might have contributed to a bad night, good old OT.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on July 27, 2017, 06:21:52 am
Yesterday I spent an hour getting her down for an independent nap with PUPD and she slept for 20mins before waking very upset and couldn't get her down again.
This is very likely overstimulation - PUPD can be very stimulating and for some babies, counterproductive so if you've another more effective way to get her to sleep, use that. PUPD is a method of last resort.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on August 16, 2017, 19:22:41 pm
​Hello!
Been a few weeks awol so thought I would post an update.

- NW are now 3-4 between 7-7. In all honesty I reckon two are true feeds and the other two digestive problems. I always try to resettle without nursing and fail almost every time.
- WU is slightly later than was at around 6am.
- Teething doesn't seem to be causing her much pain i.e. not the cause of NW
- Daytime naps are non existent or 1. Tuesday was one 10min nap after A 4hrs.
- Dd is so tired at bedtime her bath is super quick and no time for a relaxing tummy massage as she just wants to be asleep asap.
- Self settling seems to have stopped working in place of just bad crying
- We've been using a white noise machine but I don't know if it's doing anything, certainly not helping her to self settle. 
- Discovered that in order to get her to sleep when we're out I have to leave the house with the pushchair covered so she can't see me at all and she'll go off if I've timed it right at about A 2.15. Tried the same with the carrier but that only yields 25min naps whilst the pushchair will get me 1hr 10min if I keep pushing.
- At BT I nurse her to drowsy, wake her up by burping (don't get anything) and then ssshhhh pat to sleep. This is taking about an hour.
- The night wakenings started to be more frequent a two weeks ago and I just went with it as I knew there was a growth spurt around 6months but it's been 2 weeks now I'm worried it's a sleep association.
- She can now sit which I thought might also be a factor but I read these new developments should affect her sleep for 2-5days max?
- When we have a really rough day I try and bring BT earlier to say 6.30pm but that doesn't give her more sleep she just wakes up earlier. In any 12 hr night, she has a maximum of 9hrs, shes now averaging about 10/10.5 hrs in each 24.

I don't know what to do or what I'm asking for in this post just thought I'd post an update as if anyone is reading it's nicer to know if there was a solution!

Dd was 6months yesterday, we've been given the all clear to start BLW at the weekend which, judging by her constant bad tummy might make things even worse. I've changed my diet, started eating dairy again as I wondered if the bad tummy might be a lack of protein or friendly bacteria - didn't see any effect in she or I and it's been 10 days.

Well I guess I just have to keep on keeping on.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on August 19, 2017, 04:28:16 am
Hugs for the rough time, you've worked so hard xx Have a read of the reflux symptoms in the colic reflux and crying board... I suspect there's something else at play here when she simply won't sleep.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on August 22, 2017, 09:09:49 am
Thank you, I will take a look though there is little to no crying tbh. She's so over stimulated when we go out it's super hard to get her to take any sleep but she doesn't cry just sort of chills in the carrier. If she's UT and I try to bounce her in the carrier or push with the cover up in the pushchair, then she gets cross. Her A at the moment is 2.10 which I know is kinda low but since she never has a restorative nap really I think that makes sense?

Yesterday she did a 1hr 10 nap in the pushchair (I've given up trying to get her to sleep in the basket) after A 2.11 woke at 15.07 but then wouldn't take a cat nap at 5pm. I brought BT forward but she was so tired I had to do a speedy bath and no book and then she woke 7 times between 7pm and 6am this morning. But each time she was put down drowsy but definitely awake (eyes open) and she sent her self to sleep within minutes. We're transitioning to cot from basket at the moment by the end of the week she should be in there proper.

 I've read that fighting that cat nap could signify a need to transition to 2 naps so I need to read up on this a bit to see if bring BT forward is the right solution until she can do longer A times.

Can I just check something re the NW? So last night:
20.00 - this was a burp, she fell asleep as I was burping her so I kind of expected this
21.11 - don't know what this was though I have a suspicion she was trying to get comfortable and the basket is too small now
22.25 - just a hug needed
23.20 - feed 1 side, fell asleep
1.20 - feed both sides
5.10 - feed
6.08 - WU

I've been trying to keep the first feed to no earlier than midnight as I think I know this is when it's a true feed. Shhh pat doesn't work for the resettles so I've been picking her up and just holding her. No bouncing but patting and shushing and she'll calm and I'll put her down drowsy. Am I creating a new prop? Or should I just not be worrying about that at the moment and just trying to get as much sleep into her as possible? Also, I'm planning on just riding this wave for another 6 weeks or so and then trying for independent nap sleep again - am I waiting too long? she's 26weeks (and has taken really well to solids btw!) so that would be 7.5 months. I go back to work when she's 10.5 months and we're trying to have her in nursery at 9.5months. Just thought maybe there's a specific board or thread about this...
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on August 23, 2017, 08:37:59 am
Her A at the moment is 2.10 which I know is kinda low but since she never has a restorative nap really I think that makes sense?
Not really. Its a bit of a chicken/egg scenario really. She needs the longer A time to have a restorative nap but can't necessarily manage a long enough A time happily to get there. Sometimes you just have to push through the unhappy times to get to an appropriate A time so she can have good sleeps. She's 6mo now, yes? If so, she's probably pretty close to being able to go to ~3hr A time and drop the catnap so that might be part of the issue with getting her to take that nap.

I would probably say to push A times now and really try for independent sleep well before nursery. I think there's a 3-2 transition thread, not sure how active it is at the moment. You can certainly start a new thread if you want some new eyes on your situation :)

20.00 - this was a burp, she fell asleep as I was burping her so I kind of expected this 21.11 - don't know what this was though I have a suspicion she was trying to get comfortable and the basket is too small now
This is quite possibly just overtiredness - 4hr since she woke, that's reasonable.
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: ellieelmo on August 27, 2017, 11:48:13 am
Ok, thank you.

I'll retire this thread now and wait it out a bit before starting a new one. This morning dd settled herself for a nap at A 2.45 and slept for 1hr 10 so I'm really not going to accept that she can't do it! She's just done it again at A 3 and we're 15mins in to her sleep (fingers crossed). She does it every night in minutes so I think I just need to keep giving her the opportunity to practice. And starting with that first nap of the day as the easiest. The other naps we are either in the pushchair or just a cat nap which I don't mind her sleeping on me for, in fact I love it. So strange that when she does self settle I feel so guilty that I can get in with washing or cooking and just want to watch her sleep. Gah! Hormones!

Thank you so so much for your support and suggestions, I can't think what state we would be in if you hadn't been so generous and this forum didn't exist. I hope maybe one day I can help somebody as you have me xxxx
Title: Re: FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!
Post by: becj86 on August 29, 2017, 00:25:40 am
There will be ups and downs still but you know she has the basic skill.

Happy to have been able to help. Please do stick around and keep contributing to our community here :)