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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: MelanieD on September 15, 2017, 14:21:45 pm
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My daughter will be 7 months next week. She is a happy child and oh so busy. We have been doing EASY and PU/PD for 2 weeks. After the initial few days of misery she was doing pretty great. Now she is fighting all naps and even bedtime. Her morning nap and bedtime were always her easiest times to settle. Last night I was up with her for 2 hours trying to get her to settle back to sleep (doing PU/PD 10-12. This morning it took 30 minutes of her standing in the crib laughing and then 30 minutes of pu/pd for her to drift off to sleep. Sometimes I think when she sees me it's too distracting. Other times she won't settle without my hand on her tummy.
Background: she can sit, stand, crawl, cruise, and she's practicing standing without holding on (last 2 are new this week). She also goes to my husbands parents house twice a week while I work. They are not very strict with the nap routine (sometimes her eyes are shut before they put her in the crib), but they Follow EASY very well.
Her current routine is a 4 hour EASY. We have tried stretching out the A time- it always appears that when I start the nap wind-down she's ready to sleep and then when she hits the crib it's like she drank espresso.
Up 6:30
Nap 8:30 (may not fall asleep until 9:30)
Eat 10:30 (or 11 if she wakes up from nap later)
Activity
Nap 12:30/1
Eat 2:30/3
Fights cat nap unless I'm driving her home
Bed between 6-7
I realize that 6 is too early for bed because she started getting up at 4:00. She just seems exhausted when she doesn't cat nap. Also- I am working with my in laws to carryover our same routine for consistency (we are lucky to have them).
Basically I need help because I'm exhausted and its not working. I know it's my fault not my daughters so please help. This is causing so much stress in my household. I'm doing everything I can think of. I want to set my sweet baby up to succeed! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me!
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I forgot to mention she nurses twice a night and isn't eating solids well yet. This past week she has been up 3x every night and if I get her back down without nursing she keeps waking up every 30 minutes until I nurse her that third time.
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Also- naps are about 60-90 minutes. Occasionally 45 but ever since we started EASY they have lengthened.
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I think you were on the right track when you thought about increasing AT.
Her AT seams a bit below Avg for her age (~2:45-3:15), so it makes sense to me that she may fight her naps etc. As she is probably a bit UT. It is also not unusual after 6 months for baby to drop the cat nap and be down to 2 long (1-2h naps) "ideally" :)
Generally a 45- 60 min nap is sign of UT as well.
I would recommend increasing AT
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I will start with that. Any other suggestions?
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I would start there. It can take few days for a change to show improvement, so don't necessarily expect immediate results.
I also found that sleep cues alone become less reliable after 6 months, which is why I think so many if us start to get UT naps. We follow the same cues (they become learned/routine) and get behind on age appropriate AT. :(
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Thank you! I don't need immediate results. I want to do what's best for my sweet girl... and eventually get some sleep :-) Would you start with an awake time of 3 hours and see how she adjusts or stay more conservative? Knowing that she will start out fighting me should I start the wind down early?
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Using the 630 wake as an example, I might try putting down at 9:00 initially (2.5h), if she is still fighting the nap, she may be telling you she is ready for the 3h AT already.
My LO was super active too and she liked above avg AT especially in the morning.
As for NW and night feeding, it is within normal to still have 2 night feeds with a breastfed baby at this age (sometimes more if growth spurt). Do you do a dreamfeed?
Something that worked for us at that stage when baby is wanting to be nursed back to sleep but really is not hungry, I would send my husband in to do the resettling. She would settle much easier for him as she didn't expect boob ;)
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Update: So you are definitely right that my daughter was under tired for her naps. So we have started doing 2.5 hours before her morning and afternoon naps. She still will not take a catnap or a third nap- but she will be increasingly needing to be held in the evening. We have pushed back her bedtime to 6:30/7 which has helped with the 4am wake-up time for 2 hours, but she is now waking up every 2 hours all night long- insisting on eating. I'm worried that I'm setting us up for a new routine of eating all night. I have tried the dream feed many times- since she was a small baby. It doesn't buy us any more time. From our experience she will still wake up 2+ times to eat. Maybe this means its more habitual?
I also noticed that my daughter looks for my hand on her tummy or she looks to touch me while she settles down in the crib- is this okay? I don't need to stand there while she actually falls asleep. For the most part I can leave the room when she is getting Herself to sleep- but during the settling phase she looks to me. I believe she does the same with my mother in law and husband.
This is what her schedule has looked like for a few days. She has had dramatically increased feedings the past 3 days- I'm not sure if its a growth spurt or the increased wake times. I'm less inclined to think growth spurt with the night waking because she has been doing this on and off for a couple months. It might also be that she is working on standing without holding on? I NEED SLEEP, haha.
wake up 6:30 (nurse)
8:00 (nurse)
Nap 9:00-10:15/10:30
Eat 10:30
Eat 12:00
Nap 1:00/1:30- for 45 min- 60 min
Eat 2:30
Eat 5:00
Eat 6:15
Bed 6:45/7
It seems like a long stretch at night. Can you help? I'm not sure if a more structured schedule that is clock based would be better? And the feeding- we are working on introducing solids. She is still not having more than a bite or two and we aren't pushing it- just giving her opportunities to try it.
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She still will not take a catnap or a third nap- but she will be increasingly needing to be held in the evening
This is likely the 3-2 nap transition. It is not unusual for babies this age to only take 2 naps. But of course transitions can take time for babies to adjust to. It can be so frustrating, they don't want to take the 3rd nap but they get OT without it. With the increasing of AT and improving naps the routine will morph into a 2 nap routine that your baby will be better with.
but she is now waking up every 2 hours all night long- insisting on eating. I'm worried that I'm setting us up for a new routine of eating all night.
It is possible that the night feeding has or will become habitual. Breastfeeding can be so challenging. We are told to breastfeed on demand, but babies know how to manipulate their mamas and will often nurse for comfort and habit. It is not unusual to have a night feed or 2 at that age and some babies can go without night feeds around that time. After I dropped the dream feed (at 8 months) my LO would go from 7PM-6AM with out feed.
How many milk feeds do you have during the daytime?
The night feeds... does she take a full feed? Or are they quick feeds?
Assuming some of the night feeds are habitual/comfort I would recommend working on one feed at a time. Give yourself an hour(s) minimum for first feed. It looks like she does some clustering in the eve, maybe say 3 or 4 h, so decide not to feed 2h after you PD for bed. I would send hubby in to do the settling so she does not expect milk. The next time she wakes you will probably have to feed her, as with the other night feeds initially. Do this consistently for a few days, this will give her the opportunity to compensate during the day if she needs/wants more milk.
When/if this works for you, you should then maybe look at the 3rd wake up (you fed for the 2nd) and replicate same process giving your little one a few days to compensate during the day.
It might also be that she is working on standing without holding on?
Don't underestimate the sleep disturbances that new skills create. It may not be the full cause of any sleep issue but it sure can contribute!! Any time my LO was learning a new skill I became a "skill practising tyrant" during the day... OK well I am not that mean, but I put extra time during AT helping my little girl practise those skills. For one it tires her out good for naps and she is less inclined to practise in her crib, as she had lots of practise during the day.
Teeth are also a huge pain in the A$% at this stage too. Babies either want to nurse more or less during teething eeeek!! If it is not one thing it is something else.
I'm not sure if a more structured schedule that is clock based would be better?
I would jump to a rigid schedule just yet (although the older they get the more comfortable they may get with a bit more structure).
I think you are on the right track with increasing the AT. There is still room to push AT to reach the AVG AT for her age. Your first nap isn't too bad for now (anything below 90 min is usually considered UT). Your 2nd nap is shorter, so you may want to push that AT a bit to try and lengthen that nap. But overtime you will likely have to push both AM and PM AT. They will not necessarily be the same. Some babies like longer AM AT and others like longer AT in PM.
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Thank you so much for all of the advice. We have been working to stretch the awake time between naps to closer to 3 hours. We had a couple days and a couple nights of great sleep! Two days of naps longer then 45 minutes and two nights of waking at 12 and 4 only (and getting up for the day at 6:15/6:30). We have then had two days of poor night sleep and poor naps precipitated by a day where she woke up for he day at 5:15 and could not settle into sleep again. This went into her needing 3 naps (40 minutes, 60 minutes, 40 minutes). Then waking 4 times last night (fed 3 times) and so far taking 2 30 minute naps today (the second nap was an accident in the car). Any suggestions on helping the back slide please?
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Often when adjusting routine/dropping naps especially with pushing AT baby can accumulate OT and the effects/results if that OT don't show up right away.
An EW like 515 is often a sign of OT. It doesn't necessarily mean you are on the wrong track, just baby adjusting. If it were to continue this way then adjustments may need to be made. But if you need to add 3rd short cat nap (sometimes only 10-20 min is enough) or early BT a few days to counter OT that is ok.
Unplanned car/stroller sleeping can really throw things off. I used to hate taking car rides alone with my LO near to nap time. I used to have to make this awful sound that my LO hated to keep her awake. I am sure if other drivers could hear they would think I was nuts!!
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So my daughter took a 35 and a 30 minute nap today yesterday it qas35 mkinutes and 1.5 hours. She is doing about 2:50-3 hour awake time and waking up 3-4 times a night (still more than the 2 she was doing to nurse). Should I push the awake time even more? She yawns and pulls her ears typically around 1.5 hours into our awake time. She is waking up happy but yawning shortly after getting up. Yesterday's Easy
Wake up 6:45
Nap 9:25-10:05
Nap 1:05- 2:35
Bed 6:45
Up/fed 10:30
Up/fed 2:30
Up (changed/topped off) 4:00
Up for the day 6:30
Today so far:
Up 6:30
Nap 9:40- 10:15
Nap 1:10-1:40
I'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. At one point I felt like this was working but now I feel like her sleep is worse then when I started this. I know it must be me but I don't know how to fix this.
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Does she respond to any resettling techniques?
30-35 min naps sound OT to me. It really seems like she is accumulating OT. (Which can happen with routine changes) I would not push AT for now.
Either reduce to 2:45 or stick where you are at and try and resettle/extend naps.
When my LO would wake OT.... If she would intermittently put her head down/close eyes (between fussing/crying) I knew I had hope to extend nap, not necessarily that day but soon she would nap longer.
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I have done up/pd only once ssuvcessfully for a nap. The other times it will last up to 40 minutes. I've tried placing my hand on her chest, and I'm not proud to say I've even tried feeding or laying with her out of pure exhaustion. For us the problem is she will stand after I settle her down. She flips right onto her tummy and pops up. I have tried leaving the room but Income back after she complains for a bit out of fear of negative sleep associations from CIO. Before bed I've tried sitting in a chair in her room also talking calmly to her. For the most part she'll either complain or play and then cry and Oncan lay her down and she'll go to sleep. Typically before bed or naps she'll do at least 15-30 minutes of standing in tinge crib and winding herself down before I can settle her with a hand on her. Is this part of the problem? I'm really open to any advice and will try it. I'm firmly opposed to having her cry it out and I'm (quite dramatically) envisioning this being my routine for the next several months. It's become where I get anxious if she wakes up prematurely from a nap because I know the kind of night that is setting us up for. My daughter is not a problem to be solved- I know this. I just don't feel like I'm guiding her very well and it hurts my heart to know that I'm not setting her up to succeed. I'm exhausted and frustrated.
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*pu/pd successfully to extend a nap that should say.
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Hugs!! I totally understand how you feel. I used to get near crippling anxiety during nap time, I couldn't do anything around that 30 or 40 min point as I waited and worried that she would wake early. I would be crying more than my babe. I know you are trying to do the best thing(s) for your baby and yourself!!
How long has she been pulling up to stand... That is another one of those exciting milestones that can mess with sleep. Can she get down on her own? My LO would do that... Still does when UT... Occasionally if very OT and has become hyperactive.
If my LO decides to play in crib after PD I let her, I only intervene if she starts crying. There is no evidence to suggest that a little fussing alone will harm. It is the crying alone that can break down trust. It is also considered normal for a baby to take up to 20 min to settle on own. This is easy to forget if you have been dealing with OT baby that passes out quickly.
Another interesting thing many babies do is a short abrupt cry out almost like a last hurrah right before they settle down. If you know you are prob to responding very quick to fussing. Try counting to 30, then reassess. Crying tends to escalate, fussing is often monotonous.
Have you ever used shush/pat?? Less crying involved in shush/pat... But by the time my LO was that age it became shush touch (tummy or back)
Don't be ashamed of feeding or laying with your baby if they need you, or if you need them. We have all done it. Be proud that you will do whatever it takes to help your baby through tough times.
I know separation anxiety can be strong at this age. I honestly don't know much about it or the recommended methods.
Sometimes we can try everything and things still don't work out how we hope. I struggled so much with that. Babies do not follow our logic or any logic at some points. Babies know nothing about our methods or theories.
Although we hold ourselves to much higher (often unrealistic standards) during the rough stretches all that matters at the end of the day... Is your baby fed? Does your baby have shelter? Does your baby have love?
You have succeeded
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Thank you for your support. I appreciate it more then I have words for. I have night tried shush pat but I do "shush" and lay my hand on her (which she typically grabs and moves around). She's been pulling to stand (even in a sleep sack) since 5 months and a couple days. Yes she can get herself back down without a problem. I know the monotone fuss you are talking about. Should I be sitting in the room during this? Should I be putting her back down to lay? When she wakes up at night she immediately stands- sometimes before her eyes are even open. I know I go in as soon as she is standing (otherwise I watch her on the monitor). Suggestions?
You see why I'm not sure if she is over or undertired? She will be falling asleep in my arms and the moment she hits the crib it's like a jolt of adrenaline. She's ready to play. After she winds down in bed she usually needs to see me or feel e to fall asleep. She does have some separation anxiety starting- during the day I notice it now.
I'm just not sure what my next move is. At this point I would bring her into bed if I thought it would work- but that's not a long term solution. She is so active and so happy- I hate that I'm so focused on her sleep. I feel like I'm missing out on this time in her life because I'm so stressed about her sleep. I'm just so exhausted.
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I would leave the room and let her play until she falls asleep on her own or cries requesting your help. Send her a message that crib time is sleep time. If she thinks she can play and mammas there she is probably thinking it is just extended play time.
It is so sweet when they fall asleep in your arms :)
But often times if they are already asleep when you put them down and they jolt or other early sleep settling and they realize "I am not in Mama's arms anymore" it can throw them off as to how they got there.
How is she if you put her down drowsy but awake?
It does seem like she may be getting used to your touch/presence and is not settling herself. If that is the case I would suggest some gentle sleep training.
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I do put her down drowsy but awake (the exception to this is when I'm nursing her overnight she frequently is very sleepy during this time and might not be fully awake). She will either complain or play when I put her in the crib- and if she is over tired or under tired she reaches for me even when laying. She is definitely used to my touch. When I initially started EASY and did PU/PD I was reassuring her with my hand. Last night I settled her for a couple minutes with my hand on her chest and then removed it and stood near the crib. I've realized she is now into rubbing the crib or the mattress to settle- and also pulling/scratching her ears to fall asleep. When she VERY drowsy (almost asleep) I can walk out of the room while she sends herself to sleep. But I have not been able to leave the room entirely while she is settling without her crying.
It is sweet when she falls asleep in my arms but the only time I've done that recently is when I tried to wear her in the carrier yesterday to try and get a cat nap out of her when she has had 2 really poor naps (35 min each) earlier in the day. This is the 0exception and not the rule- but the only thing I can think of to try and head off the overtired 5am wake-up (which it did not help)!
The only sleep training I've done is the pu/pd and introducing EASY. how could I sleep train this next part? i'm all for it. Last night I took your advice and I did not run in with every sound she made. I noticed that she makes many noises at night- almost sounds like one loud cry. I'm not sure if this is in between sleep cycles or because she was definitely over-tired. But it did not wake her fully up and she was able to resettle without standing. I was so proud of her! She only needed me to settle her once at 830 and feed her twice before she was getting up at 530 (overtired). I was able to resettle her with some work until 6:15 wake-up.
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I will definitely let her settle on her own in the crib this evening. I think I just needed permission for this- I wanted to make sure that it would be okay for her. When she cries- should I go back in, settle her, and then leave the room again? like PU/PD but not standing next to the crib?
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I am so glad you are seeing some progress with her settling herself at night. It is amazing what these little humans can do.
I know what it feels like to need permission or reassurance. Sometimes I know the answer but I need to hear it from someone else that has been there.
PU PD is often used to break a sleep association or start out with sleep training, but you may be able to move to a gentler approach as PU PD can have some hard crying.
To be honest, you are right there now. PD awake, allow her to try to settle on own (my LO would kick her legs, scratch mattress all sorts of strange things), if she starts to cry start with "shush" (touch/rub) until she calms down, then slowly try to retreat. If it starts up again resume. Only PU if crying escalates.
Be brave! Letting her fuss a bit is ok. If it is killing you to let her fuss. Count to 15 before interveening, then next time count to 30 and so on, as long as the fussing does not turn into crying.
To be honest sleep training is just as hard or harder on parents than babies.