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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: CbabyJ on November 04, 2017, 23:42:09 pm
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My LO tends to complain straight away when I put him in bed for naps and bedtime. He sits or stands and cries immediately. I tend to put him down when he's almost asleep- I sway him for a few mins to calm him then lay him in the crib. What I've been doing is picking him up, lying him down and stroking his back. He seems to calm and settle most times quickly but as long as I have at least a finger on him. The minute I step away, the screaming starts.
Am I just creating a prop?
I have just walked out of the room and he doesn't settle in 10 mins - then I have to really calm him by swaying him till he's almost asleep.
It seems to be a combination of separation anxiety and some bad sleep habits picked up recently as I have just wanted him to sleep quickly as I have an older child too.
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This is peak age for SA - its worth being with him if he needs you during this time.
Is he protesting because he's not tired enough? Do you mind posting his EAS? It could be that a little more A time will have him falling asleep much more quickly again.
It sounds like you might be leaving him and not responding when he's upset - we don't advise that here as it can break the bond of trust between baby and carer.
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Would he be under tired if he goes to sleep quickly with my hand on him?
Friday
Awake 7
S 10-1145 I woke
S 3-345 - this was a battle to get him down he seemed tired but wouldn't let me leave.
Bed at 7 - NW 1130,4 fed both times
Awake 630
S 940-1120 - woke up 30 mins in and I had to help get back down
S 240-4 - woke again 30 mins in and needed help to get back down
Bed at 715, fell asleep straight away but with my hand on him
I tried extending the day today as our clocks went back last night.
NW 11,5
That was an odd day normally he goes straight down for his morning nap and needs waking. I'm wondering whether his somewhat better night meant that he wasn't as tired to have a good nap. But wouldn't a wake at 30 mins mean overtired?
Typically 3hr in the morning and 3hr15 in the Pm seem to work for awake time.
Although the afternoon nap is always hard to time and is rarely a good nap
As he needs a little help to fall asleep should I be considering gradual withdrawal? Would that help with the night feeds ?
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Would he be under tired if he goes to sleep quickly with my hand on him?
Could be - they learn pretty quickly how to please mum ;)
S 3-345 - this was a battle to get him down he seemed tired but wouldn't let me leave.
Did he then sleep 45min and wake on his own?
A few questions:
- Has your LO always been on the high end of sleep needs? As I read through your EASY, I had to remind myself he's 9mo, not 6-7mo.
- Are the NW's new or have they been there always? What is his behaviour like at the 4am-ish waking?
- When and what is he eating? That can have a pretty big bearing on NWs at this age.
I'm a bit concerned that he's hanging on to this routine out of habit and things are going to go to pot pretty quickly for you if we don't increase those A times. Seeing him with an OT waking with just 10mins more A time suggests he's either a kid who likes shorter A times than average (that's fine - nothing wrong with that, just need to know so we don't recommend crazy-long A times for him) or he's very habituated to this 3hr A time (that, we can just push through with a few days of resettling). I think its most likely that he needs more A time and that you will probably get 30min wakings for the first 3-4 days of an increased A time because he has become so used to these short A times. The things that point to this are the protesting at nap time, taking a while to go to sleep and the 45min nap after 3:15 in the afternoon. He may well need different A times at different times of day but I suspect he's doing a decent nap off 3hr A time first up in the day because he's not sleeping particularly well through the early hours of the morning because he doesn't have to. Definitely GW is a good way to go with sleep training - I just think a lot of your issues will be resolved by a more age-appropriate A time and the NFs may go once he's tired enough for good night sleep.
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In terms of sleep needs- I would say that he's always been a good napper well up to about 6 months and things have been hit or miss since.
Do you think I need to cap naps? Typically I cap at 1.5 hours or earlier if I want to make sure I can get a second nap in or make sure bedtime is going to happen around 7.
My issue with timing the first nap is that quite often he's unsettled in the morning waking 1-3 times between 4-6am. So I think this makes him tired.
In terms of night wakings- he's always woken 2-3 times only this seems to have got worse recently and I'm really trying to avoid 3 night feeds so I resettle if he wakes too early after the last night feed. So I think it can cause him to have less actual sleep at night. TRhen he's tired for sure by 3 hours awake time for the first nap.
He is very upset when he wakes around 4-6 and needs a fair bit of help. This morning he woke screaming and seemed really scared.
For food he has three meals- I breastfeed on waking after the naps and before bed. Plus two nightfeeds.
For solids he eats about 1-1.5 hours after nap 1 and waking and around 5pm. He doesn't eat a ton- usually 2-3 tablespoons plus finger foods. Hard to say how much he eats but my first child ate a lot more and slept a lot more !
I didn't think my awake time, or total day sleep was that out of line with average for age -I've looked at the posted examples of routines on this site... maybe I'm wrong but three hour awake for first nap seems standard.
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My issue with timing the first nap is that quite often he's unsettled in the morning waking 1-3 times between 4-6am. So I think this makes him tired.
Yes, but the 3hr A time is reinforcing that rather than enticing him to sleep better in the early hours of the morning. If you push that first A time (yes, it will be horrible the first few days and he'll have OT wakings from naps the first few days which should be easily resettled), and keep it consistent, he will start sleeping better through the early hours and be better able to cope with a longer first A time. Given his age, I'd probably just jump to 3:30 A time first thing and see how he goes over the next week.
Keep in mind that people posting with issues at 9 months are usually not a good indication of what will work... average A time at 9 months is 3:30-4hr and it does vary a lot from baby to baby at this age. 3hr is average at 6-7 months, so its almost certainly too short for your DS and the wakings between 4 and 6am are telling you this.
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Thanks for the reply and all your comments.
Last night he had a great night not waking till 2 - even though he had really short naps yesterday. He did wake at 4 but resettled himself. Then woke at 5 for a feed which I expected as he is used to feeding every three to 4 hours at night.
Today I went with 3hr10 awake for first nap- he did wake about 45 mins but he got himself back asleep. I woke him after an hour and 30mins.
For the afternoon I tried putting him down 3hr20- he was really fussy for about half an hour before that. He complained a bit when I put him down but did fall asleep by himself. He only slept 40 mins and woke crying.
My comment about other people's schedules was more based on the schedules posted in the FAQs.
Given that I should be shooting for a 3.5-4 hr awake time- I guess I should be capping naps to ensure a decent bedtime? I ideally would like a bedtime of 7 to be in line with my toddler
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I woke him after an hour and 30mins.
I don't think you really need to cap naps - that's probably part of the trouble working out the next A time.
Here's the 7-9mo FAQ... scroll down to get to 9mo sample A times. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164030.0
Some people will do a shorter A time in the morning because they're capping the first nap at 1hr or less. I tend to recommend that you get a good long A time in the morning and a good long nap then do a CN at the end of the day. Most people stick with that until the CN gets refused consistently, then work on capping a nap in the morning. At least with a long first nap, you know there's a good nap in the day and you've another chance if the first nap goes poorly. I think given the issues you're describing, a longer morning A time is the way to go.
Given that I should be shooting for a 3.5-4 hr awake time- I guess I should be capping naps to ensure a decent bedtime? I ideally would like a bedtime of 7 to be in line with my toddler
I think just cut one nap short - ideally the second one rather than capping both, when you get to one nap, you want him to be able to sleep as long as he needs rather than waking at 1.5hr because that's what he's been trained to do by capping at 1.5hr regularly. Have a look at the 9mo sample routines, there are plenty of options.
Something else to consider is when you want him to be awake for the day - a 12hr night is a bit unrealistic at this age, so you might find a 6am WU and 7pm BT is what ends up happening.
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Would you let the first nap go over 2hours ? I thought a too long nap in the morning disrupted the early morning night sleep? I thought I had read that somewhere.
FYI he had another better night - just waking at 1 and 430. I am also starting to reduce the number of mins he nurses for to see if that naturally helps him sleep through.
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Just an update on today - he had an hour and a half nap this morning, waking by himself. I tried for 3hr 20 awake time- he did seem drowsy during wind down. But he fought hard eventually falling asleep with my hand on him at 3hr 45 awake time. He only slept 40mins and woke crying.
I really can't read when to put him down in the afternoon.
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Would you let the first nap go over 2hours ?
I would probably cap by watching for him to stir just after 2hr if it went that long. You can always cap the catnap at 20min if you're too close to BT, yk? Yes, too long a morning nap can cause issues with the early hours of the morning but its actually usually in combination with too short an A time between as well.
But he fought hard eventually falling asleep with my hand on him at 3hr 45 awake time. He only slept 40mins and woke crying.
This is all in relation to the morning nap? If so, give him a few days at this A time and see if the nap lengthens out again. We cannot read into one 45min nap the first day you extend.
I am also starting to reduce the number of mins he nurses for to see if that naturally helps him sleep through.
Definitely worth a try, it can help.
FX for the rest of the day.
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The last few days have been strange to say the least.
Thurs
Woke 640
S 940-11
S 245- 345 (I woke)
Bed at 7
NW 12,345
Fri
Woke 6 out of crib 620
S 920-1035
S 205- 250 woke very upset
Bed at 645 woke screaming, fighting at 1030. I refused to feed , it took an hour and a half to get him to sleep. Something that has never happened!
Another NW at 345 with a feed
Sat
Woke 650
S 950-1135- he woke 30 mins in but I resettled him. In hindsight I probably should have put him down earlier given the bad night.
S 305-350 woke very upset
So he's been falling asleep for naps easy- I sway him for a minute or two with a lullaby playing. And he's very drowsy quickly. And seems to fall asleep almost instantly in the crib.
Obviously I'm trying 3hr 30 for the afternoon with limited success. He wakes crying which still makes me think he's overtired despite showing no real tired signs most of the time.
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He wakes crying which still makes me think he's overtired despite showing no real tired signs most of the time.
Waking crying can mean all sorts of things. Certainly not a good indicator of OT/UT.
S 950-1135- he woke 30 mins in but I resettled him. In hindsight I probably should have put him down earlier given the bad night.
See the length of this nap? 1:45! The first long nap he's done in that sequence was after a bad night, so that tells me that after a good night, he can probably be pushed beyond 3hr in the morning. He woke 30min in because he was a bit OT but a bit of short-term OT where he's easily resettled at 30min is so much better than running an undercurrent of chronic OT from short naps.
He may be not showing tired signs because he's not yet tired. These A times are shorter than or on the short end of the average A time for his age.
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Thanks
One more question ... is it weird that he falls asleep quick even if he isn't tired enough for a long nap ? Before he was fighting the nap so I thought pushing awake times would help. But for the most part he isn't fighting going to sleep (for now anyway! )
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is it weird that he falls asleep quick even if he isn't tired enough for a long nap ?
There are still plenty of reasons babies go to sleep quickly even if they're not tired enough - they know how to please mummy, they are in the habit of falling asleep at that time, they associate the WD routine with sleep time... He's not hugely UT, just enough that his naps aren't restorative.
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So it's been a while now- I've been persisting with 3hr 30 for the afternoon awake time and he is still waking after 30-40 mins and is normally so so sad when he wakes. Mostly he goes down easy for the nap. I just hate the fact that the schedule is clearly making him sad.
In the morning I've been working to about 3hr 15 and even that seems a push. He is still only napping a hour and 20 almost exactly every morning.
Nights are still all over the place but I'm reducing the mins nursing and soon I will try phase it out apart from early morning if he needs it. Right now I can get him back to sleep just by picking him up and gently rocking for a few mins. Not ideal but I want to get some sleep!
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In the morning I've been working to about 3hr 15 and even that seems a push. He is still only napping a hour and 20 almost exactly every morning.
So this isn't so bad - Its slightly UT though... How are the early hours of the morning going? I think he could probably be awake a little longer than that. Would you consider taking him to a park or something in the morning to help him stay interested in being awake a little longer?
he is still waking after 30-40 mins and is normally so so sad when he wakes.
How's he behaving when he wakes?
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When he wakes from his afternoon nap he's always super miserable. I feed him which perks him up half the time. Otherwise it takes him a long time to be happy usually it helps if his brother is around!
For the morning - it's getting harder to occupy him for three hours as we live in Canada and it's getting pretty cold! I think he could go longer some mornings especially when his nights haven't been bad. But he's still waking 3 times on average. Early mornings aren't bad - usually one wake up with a feed but for the most part he is doing ok there. It's the early part of the night that's a bit of mess.
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Any insight into why the afternoon nap is terrible? I think my next strategy has to be to reduce the awake time - he is so miserable when he wakes. Today he only slept for 25 mins.
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Any insight into why the afternoon nap is terrible?
Sorry, this is why I was asking what his behaviour is like when he wakes - what does miserable look like? Crying does not always mean miserable - it can mean a myriad of things at this age, its still a major part of LO's communication.
Is there a reason you haven't increased that first A time of the day beyond 3hr? I really think that's where you will get returns. You are there and know your child best. I can only provide advice based on my experience with my one child and the many people I've learned from and helped over the past 6.5 years on this forum. I think there's an issue with the first A time being too short and I have seen second naps go awry and/or be refused due to a combination of too-short 1st and 2nd A times countless times and I think that's what is an issue here.
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He does genuinely seem miserable for quite sometime .... even feeding doesn’t seem to perk him up.
He has had two good nights the last couple of days only waking once - I’ve shortened feeds to 5 mins so tonight will be the first night where I try to cut it out completely.
Given the good night last night - he wasn’t tired at all this morning - he fell asleep at 3hr 30 so we shall see how it goes ... fingers crossed !
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Fingers crossed for a good nap and another good night!
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So 3hr 30 in the am is producing a long nap... maybe too long ha ha! I had to wake him today after two hours - I was worried about squeezing in a second nap.
As for the nights... Wednesday night was my first attempt and no night feeds- I sent my husband in at 1 and it took an hour but he slept till 530 and I managed to get him back down till 630am.
Last night... I don’t want to jinx it but he slept 710-540!!!! And I got him back down for another half an hour so his wake up time wasn’t too early.
Maybe I needed to send my husband in a few months ago.
Anyway, fingers crossed that things keep improving. Who knows it might have just been a fluke night.
I still find that second nap hard- I had a hard time putting him down yesterday after 3hrs 40 awake, and when he did finally sleep I had to wake him after 20 mins to get my older son - there just don’t seem to be enough hours in the day for that nap to happen.
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How have you been going? Hope you've had some more good nights, that one was great!
That second nap at this age is usually a catnap anyway, so don't worry too much about it being short. I have found that its best to focus on keeping one nap long if you can so you don't run into as many issues with nap length when you get to one nap.
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Hello! I was just about to post when I saw your message! Well I’ve had 6 nights of 7pmish-6amish !!!
So a definite improvement. Only my issue now is that he wakes around 545am and is happy so I try my best to leave him till at least 6am. This is a bit too early for me though and I would like him to wake later to sync up better with the family.
He’s been napping good 1.5-2hrs in the morning with a catnap in the afternoon. The last few days he’s needed his morning nap at 3hrs not 3hrs30 awake - I think he’s been in pain with teething.
I make sure he’s awake by about 345 in the afternoon so that can mean only a 20min nap. As he needs about 3hrs 15-30 before bed.
Any thoughts on the early waking ?
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Great news re: good nights :)
I think if you push that first A time, he will naturally sleep a little later in the morning, though with an 11hr night, its not really an EW. Yes, its early, but he could well have had sufficient sleep.
I'd suggest you look at shifting his whole day slowly (say over 4 weeks or so) rather than trying to get him to sleep 12hr over night. If you can push that first A time and shift the naps later, I'd keep the CN pretty short and try to do BT a little later.
So the way I would start that is to say the first nap happens at 3:30 or 9:45, whichever is later for a week, then move that to 3:30 or 10am, whichever is later and so on, until his day has shifted to a more desirable WU but that will mean a later BT.
Does that make sense?
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Today oddly he wasn’t tired till 3hr 30 in the AM - had a good nap but in the afternoon he was tired earlier than usual and needed a nap at 3hr 20 - he slept an hour and I woke him at 345.
I’m wondering if he wakes early as he is just getting used to the lack of food overnight and is genuinely hungry but I guess he wouldn’t wake happy in that case ?
I am reluctant to do a later night as it means an even later night for my 3 year old but I guess I may have to.
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I am reluctant to do a later night as it means an even later night for my 3 year old but I guess I may have to.
Yes, I can understand that. Unfortunately, a 12hr night is not really a reasonable expectation at this age. He's sleeping an 11hr night which is spot on normal so its either the 6am WU for the day or a later BT.
I’m wondering if he wakes early as he is just getting used to the lack of food overnight and is genuinely hungry but I guess he wouldn’t wake happy in that case ?
He may wake happy but he'd be hungry if he were waking for hunger. Perhaps he'd be impatient for his morning milk or some similar sign of hunger.
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I’m wondering if he is hungry as today he was very unsettled between 3-430. Eventually i got him up at 545 as he was pulling at my shirt and wouldn’t settle.
Last night he couldn’t stay up past 645 he was a mess from 6pm so tired and upset even though he had an hours sleep from 240-345- I did wake him from this nap but maybe I shouldn’t have. Normally after a good sleep he would be fine till 715
Hoping last night was a one off.
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3-430
This *could* be UT related to the short first A time - it may need another bump now the increase to 3:30 has done its job.
It could also be a regression with the weaning of the NFs - after a while they can just wake and test your resolve and make sure the new order really is here to stay.
Hopefully it was a one-off. FX for a better night tonight :)
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So I’m still having early wakes normally 530- 545 and I leave him till at least 6. I’m wondering whether he’s having too much day sleep or if he’s waking due to hunger.
I don’t want to try to feed him and get him back down as I don’t want to reinforce the EW.
Today he woke at 530- yesterday he had a morning nap of 1hr25 and afternoon nap of 1hr 15 which was very unusual as he normally only naps 30mins. I put him down at 715 and he fell a straight asleep.
Normally his naps are 1hr 45-2hr in the morning and an afternoon catnap.
I don’t want to cap his morning nap ideally as it’s the good nap. And given he wakes up well before 6 normally I can only really get to 930 before he’s super tired for his morning nap.
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I'm going to suggest you pick a suitable WU time that fits with ~11hr night and a BT you're happy with (some compromise may be required). Once you do that, you pull WU later by saying that first nap will be after 3:45hr or 9:45, whichever is later. 3-4 day to a week later, you would shift that to being 3:45 from WU or 10am whichever is later until WU is at a reasonable time.
I agree that its not a good idea to cap the first nap at the moment.
If he's super tired for his morning nap and sleeping 1:25 (a slightly UT nap), it may be worth considering a change of activity rather than nap as he may just be a bit bored or going to sleep after 3:30 from habit.
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So if my desired WU is 630 I would put him down at 1000 even if he woke and was out of the crib at 6? I’m just not sure how forcing the nap to be later would help the WU as wouldn’t he just be overtired the whole day and wake up even earlier ? But of course you have more experience so I’m open to suggestions!
I’ve been thinking that I should also try delay his morning BF to match my desired WU. At the moment I feed straight away mainly to keep him quiet to make sure my older boy doesn’t wake. What do you think ?
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LO's wake earlier than they previously did when A time is too short - to make it longer. If you make the nap earlier as a result of the earlier waking, they will wake earlier again. If you keep the nap where it should be / make it later, they will sleep later. Its the most effective way to shift the day later. Its what we recommend with clock changes / small time zone changes too.
I’ve been thinking that I should also try delay his morning BF to match my desired WU. At the moment I feed straight away mainly to keep him quiet to make sure my older boy doesn’t wake. What do you think ?
I'd be doing what works best for the whole family. I'm not sure that delaying a feed is going to make him sleep any later.
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An update - I am still having early mornings. And he is pretty miserable for the first hour or two which is tough.
He wakes normally 530-6 but sometimes wakes 515 with a cry and falls back asleep for a bit. I try to wait until 630 to get him but most of the time it is more like 6-615.
He can normally go till about 1020 until a nap and sleeps 1.5hrs. He then naps at 330ish for 30 mins.
With a bedtime of 715 or so - he falls asleep quick I think due to the short PM nap.
I don’t think he’s getting enough sleep through the day/night. He’s been fussy for over a week now and there’s nothing to blame other than tiredness I think. Although it’s not like he’s rubbing his eyes or anything.
Should I try pushing that first nap later for a longer nap or capping it? I’m scared to cap it as it’s his good nap. And pushing it later will most likely mean no second nap as he will fight it. And I can’t often AP it.
I’m sad he’s so sad in the mornings. My first wa so happy first thing it makes me feel like something is definitely wrong with his schedule.
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Should I try pushing that first nap later for a longer nap or capping it? I’m scared to cap it as it’s his good nap. And pushing it later will most likely mean no second nap as he will fight it. And I can’t often AP it.
No, don't cap the long nap, you want to preserve that fpr when you get to one nap. What are you looking to achieve?
Is he cutting teeth? That can be unpleasant.
Is he waking ready to do things and having to stay quiet for everyone else's benefit? Is he hungry that first hour? Just throwing out ideas as to why he might be less happy...
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I do still want a later start to the day given he fact he isn’t getting enough sleep in my opinion.
He isn’t cutting teeth right now. The fussiness started a week ago after a cold and hasn’t really stopped. I went to the doc to check for ear infection but there was no sign.
He doesn’t have to stay quiet in the morning and he definitely isn’t quiet. I try to play with him. He is hungry for sure. I breastfeed him and 30 mins to 45mins later he has breakfast. But that doesn’t improve his mood much.
I just don’t know why he’s gone from being happy most of the time to whiny most of the time. Even when in his high chair eating his favourite foods!
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Is this just in the last week following the cold? I presume doc checked throat, etc. as well. It can take a while to recover or he may be brewing another illness. Is he off his food at all?
How old is he now? Just trying to get a picture of what sleep would be average as the night is slightly short at ~10-10.5hr but the day looks ok. Has his sleep decreased markedly in the last week or two?
It may be developmental or situational too - things may be a bit more hectic/fraught with Christmas coming up.
Here is a link to some info re: EW which might give you some more ideas... https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=253524.0
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The doctor did check everything. He’s not off food at all he’s eating more than he has been. Making up for the lost lunch breastfeed I presume.
He will be 11 months tomorrow.
He does act frustrated like he wants to do more - talking/ walk etc. I was thinking that’s tiredness.
I need to cut the post afternoon nap breastfeed this week to get him ready for Daycare and I’m scared to do it given the way he’s been acting... plus the fact he does seem so hungry. I’d say it was a growth spurt but it’s been a week now.
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I’d say it was a growth spurt but it’s been a week now.
They can certainly go for that long.
I need to cut the post afternoon nap breastfeed this week to get him ready for Daycare and I’m scared to do it given the way he’s been acting.
I'd probably just keep it (if you are willing to keep it for home/weekends) and pack a snack and drink for daycare. He will know they are two different places and form different habits at daycare than home.
He does act frustrated like he wants to do more - talking/ walk etc. I was thinking that’s tiredness.
Lots of babies become frustrated and whiny when they are working on new skills.
I honestly don't think his sleep amount is drastically low for his age. If it hasn't changed in that week that he's been fussy and he's been working on skills and more hungry, I think you've a combination of other factors rather than sleep being the issue. I know you're working a lot less on sleep in the last couple of weeks/month or so than you have been previously but I think that we've just adjusted things to be more age-approriate and it can feel like a lot less but its actually not given he's now having a more solid night sleep and he's getting a long nap in the day.