BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: Mummy1982 on March 17, 2018, 08:59:25 am
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Hi
My little boy is 6 months on 27th march - we are just starting out with a baby whisperer routine as we seem to be a bit all over the place with naps etc with early waking occurring. My little boy can self settle but is quite hard to read when he is tired, if he is undertired he will protest when being put on and scream quite a bit but there seems to be a fine line between him being UT and OT.
I've been working on a 2hr 45-3hr awake time for the last couple of weeks but it's been a bit hit and miss, some days we get a 45 min nap only for first nap and other times we get 1.5-2hrs.
We don't dreamfeed just let him wake when he's hungry - he generally always wakes between 1-2am, recently he has woken around 5, has a chat for 15-20 mins and then resettles (most days) to 6-6.30ish.
General routine is
Wake - 6.30
Eat -7
Sleep 9.20 put down ready for 9.30 - sometimes get 45 mins other times longer
This is when it starts to go around as then it's hard to know when naps should be
If get 45 mins, put down at 1, then do a short cat nap
If 1.5 hours, put gown around 1.45-2 and then I'd get 1.5 hours again, usually go to bedtime. However I'm not sure how long I should give between last nap and bedtime.
Sorry for the ramble post - I feel a bit lost at the moment!
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Hello and welcome to BW forums :)
It sounds like you're doing really well :)
A couple of things come to mind
- have you looked at the level of stimulation on different days? My LO was very "active" (as much as they can be at 6 months!) and wanted lots of stimulation during his A time, he liked to be "doing" things right up to his nap time. If I tried to keep things lower key or increased the length of the wind down at all he wouldn't be happy about it and hadn't had enough stimulation to tire him out for a good sleep. Other LOs don't sleep so well after too much stimulation - perhaps you could look at your morning activities over a week and see if there is a pattern to the stimulation level and his sleep length?
- you are using an A time of 2hr 45 - 3hrs. It could be that the 15 min difference is effecting how well he sleeps. 15 mins difference is huge to a little baby and can be the difference between OT and UT. Perhaps check your records to see how long he slept with 3hrs and see if it was longer. 2hr 45 could be leading to UT naps (45 min) instead of long naps. If this is the case you will need to encourage the longer A time even if he shows sleepy signs...you can go slow on getting him ready for sleep to delay.
- you could also try a W2S on that first nap for a few days, here's a link:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
have a look at naps option 1. It could be that your LO has learned to fall asleep independently but not yet learned how to transition from one sleep cycle to the next and only does this on his own sometimes instead of every day. The W2S can help to establish a habit so LO learns to sleep a long nap daily.
It's also a useful method if you are unsure if he will sleep a short or long nap, you can go before he usually wakes and instead of starting the shush/pat immediately you can hover a hand above him in readiness, then if you see him transition (it is normal to come out of sleep move a bit and go back into sleep) you can leave the room without helping but if he looks like he is not falling back to sleep you are ready to begin helping right away. This means he stays more relaxed and the attempt to extend the nap may be more successful as he hasn't had to wake fully to cry out for you.
However I'm not sure how long I should give between last nap and bedtime.
Not longer than the usual A time in the rest of the day. if naps have been short then I'd reduce the last A time. If the last A time comes after a CN I would reduce the last A time. If the last A time comes after a good long restorative sleep I'd give a full A time.
Hope this helps.
If you are not jotting down the routine through the day I would suggest you do so as this helps to highlight the slight differences in A times or stimulation etc and could help you (or us) see a pattern where you might not expect one.
let us know how you get on.
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Great, thank you for your response, will definitely try those things
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Hi, things have been going really well with naps, pretty much getting 1.5 hour naps after 2.45-3hr A time.
However I've noticed 2 things start happening over last few days -
When I put DS down in cot he cries - I think it's a protest cry rather than OT as I've tried varying times between 2.45-3hr and it happens every time although some times he cries for 5 mins and other times 10. If I offer the dummy (which we rarely use only if he seems very upset he settles very quickly)
Also he has started waking at night earlier, we don't dreamfeed but he used to wake up between 1.30 and 2.39 but now he's getting closer to 12-12.30 - we introduced solids 2 weeks ago as he was looking hungry and he eats 3 times a day as well as 4 x 8oz bottles in day. I offer him a bottle at 12.30 but only takes 4oz and doesn't re-wake until morning. I'm wondering if I should leave him to see if he settles?
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Are you still needing to extend the 45 min naps to make to the 1hr 30 or is he doing this pretty much every nap by himself?
The crying just before nap can be a bit of OT/OS (over tired/over stimulated) or UT/US (under tired/under stimulation) - did you have a look at the pattern of A times and stimulation levels just prior to the naps where he is protesting more?
Introducing solids can also have a big impact on sleep, disturbing naps with gas/wind or even making LO more tired due to the level of stimulation with new foods and experiences and the physical effort of eating. It can alter the suitable A time so bare this in mind too. You may not be able to totally avoid OT/OS but it may help you notice his needs by just knowing it can effect them.
I would continue feeding at night. It looks like he is just bringing that night feed earlier himself and reducing it. He could naturally drop it without any help but it is quite normal for there to still be a feed at this age so I wouldn't rush to drop it.
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He's doing the long naps himself, I'm not needed to resettle which is good. I hadn't thought of tracking the a time and the crying so will do that. Interestingly today he had 3 hours a time but was fed at about 2.25hrs and cried for a good 10 mins and then only got a 35 min nap. I might change his wind down to include a short story in his room before putting down too.
Ok I won't rush to get rid of night feed - I don't mind doing it just thought it was odd that it had got earlier!
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That nap sounds like it could have been OT or OS even though you got him to sleep at the 3hr mark.
Great he's doing those long naps himself! :)
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Ok, more advice if possible! I feel like it's going to be a bit of trial and error,
Yesterday's routine was as follows
Wake up - 7 had milk
Solids - 8.15
Put down at 9.50, cried quite a bit but asleep by 10
Woke up - 11.45 had milk
Lunch 1.15
Put down for nap at 2.30 - only slept for 45 mins
Milk 3.45
Dinner - 5.00
Bed - 6.30 but must have talked in cot until 7.
Woke at 11.30 - had milk and put back in cot awake fell back to sleep after 20 mins
Woke at 4.50 (5.50 clocks adjusted) and would not resettle.
So a few things I'm thinking
Morning nap we got about right a time yesterday as we got a long nap bit afternoon nap was short - longer a time needed? Or could it be hunger as milk should be 7, 11, 3 and 7 but 11 and 3 interrupted by naps?
We didn't do a cat nap we just tried to do earlier bedtime but he was so wide awake and didn't even look tired? But I guess the early wake at 5 shows that he went too long? What a time should we do if only get 45 min afternoon nap before doing cat nap?
I still don't get why he's waking so early at night, 3-4 weeks ago he was going until 3am! But now he's waking earlierbin night, he is starting to stir again early morning - sometimes having another feed!
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I guess he's still too young to have a morning nap of an hour and then a longer afternoon nap?
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He is too young for 1 shorter nap and 1 longer nap really - although some low sleep needs LOs do end up doing something like this.
I would try for both A times before the naps to be the 3hrs as a standard routine for 6 months. Maybe try the W2S on the second nap if the first nap is now steady at 1.5hr+ each day. If you can extend nap 2 nights should be a little easier.
The night feeds could be linked to a GS or to the solids being introduced.
Are you giving water or milk after the solids? Some LOs like to finish off their solids meal with milk so perhaps try that.
Another thing which could impact on nights and hunger is having dinner - you could drop the dinner solids (reintroduce later) so that he is properly hungry for his milk and fills on milk instead, which could help see him through the night like he was previously. Like I said a night feed is normal so this isn't about actively dropping a NF but rather just making sure that the day calories are the best they can be.
What a time should we do if only get 45 min afternoon nap before doing cat nap?
When you move to 2 naps it is really hard to fit in a third nap/CN if one of the other naps is short, just because you start getting near BT.
It may be easier to try to extend nap 2 and if unsuccessful go for EBT. You likely need to start the BT routine almost right away after giving up on extending. Something like:
S 2.45 - 3.30 (45 min try to extend)
try to extend for 30 - 40 min
4.00/4.15 stop extending, move on.
A this A time counts from nap wake up, 3.30pm and needs to be no longer than 3hr max, ideally shorter, say 2hr 30 (due to short nap)
feed, bath, pjs, wind down and BT feed
BT aim for sleep at 6pm (and no later than 6.30pm)
hope this helps
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Hi, I'm back again! Naps set to be going ok, the afternoon is a bit hit and miss but I have found that he prefers a catnap and later bedtime if he has a short sleep rather than early bedtime. Mornings are starting to creep earlier again though - was getting 6.30 now back to 5.45 - wonder if a slight push in a time is required again? Maybe just 5 mins.
Tried an experiment with the NW - took the solids down to just 1 meal a day but varied it to lunch and dinner time and he woke up at 3am, yesterday he had solids at lunch and dinner, took sane amount of milk in day and woke up at 12.30 - makes no sense!
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Mornings are starting to creep earlier again though - was getting 6.30 now back to 5.45 - wonder if a slight push in a time is required again?
Some times earlier waking is due to OT before BT. If you are sure the A time wasn't too long before BT and that the naps were reasonable that day and he also wakes earlier then, yes, an A time increase could be needed before the first nap.
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Ok so we're back to 45 min naps, you think you've cracked it and then it all goes down hill again!
Last couple of days have looked like this
Awake - 6.30
E - 7
Put down for nap 9.25 - asleep by 9.30/9.35
Awake after 45 mins at latest - no resettling, wants to get up!
E - 11
Solids - 11.45
Put down for nap at 1, asleep by 1.15. Sometimes we get 45 sometimes we get 1hr 30 - it doesn't seem to matter what we e been doing beforehand as to how he sleeps.
Generally we are needing a cat nap again to get bedtime at 7ish. I can't do early bedtime as I hVe another child to sort out. It's frustrating as we were just getting to a 2 nap day and now we are back on 3!
Should I push that first a time by 15 mins? He's now 6 1/2 months old. Compared to my first son who was taking 2 x 1.5-2hr naps at this age he doesn't seem to want much sleep!
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Today so far has been
6.15 - wake
9.20 asleep
10.05 - awake and talking to self happily
1.05 - put down
1.15 - asleep
2.00 - awake and talking happily then cries as wants to get out
Will have to do another sleep but I feel totally lost on what I should be doing nap wise - thought he was UT but is it OT?
Maybe I should aim for short morning nap and longer afternoon nap?
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Hi there. sorry you didn't get a reply, I've got a bad back and was unable to get on-line for over a week.
How are things now?
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No worries, sorry to hear about your back hope it's feeling better.
Naps are not great - only getting 45 mins at a time. He has just started sleeping through the night (7-6.30) the last 2 nights.
Today he'd been awake 2hr 45 and he was getting miserable so I put him in his car seat ready as we were going out and he fell asleep in it before we left the house - it was about 3hr by the time we left. He woke up after 45 but that may have been because we were getting out the car at that time. But if I do that time in the cot at home I still only get 45 m. I'm it sure what to do as I was hoping to drop to 2 naps but as we're only getting 45 mins then we are still on 3 as we need a cat nap later on to get to bed time
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So the long morning nap has also returned to 45 mins? Is that daily now? Have you tired the W2S again?
I think if the night has settled he may need more A time in the morning (having had a better night sleep) so aim for the full 3hrs and possibly another 10 mins. Some times when they need a little extra A time they can get a bit grouchy about it because they feel tired, it takes a little while (a few days say) to get used to the longer A time. It can be tricky to extend though because as you've just described, you put him in the car seat and he went off to sleep on his own so it's tempting to put down at the earlier time to keep LOs happy and to follow the cues.
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Yes all naps have got short - if we do manage to get a long morning nap - we always get a short afternoon nap meaning a cat nap is still needed.
Today he woke at 5.45 and went for his nap at 8.45 after 5-7 mins of talking he was asleep and he had just under 2 hours! We then put him down at 13.50 (3hrs 10 after waking) as he was getting fussy - after 5 mins he was asleep but awake at the 40 min mark
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He doesn’t seem to want a lof if sleep in the day which is fine by me - even days he’s had 3 x 45 mins he doesn’t seem to be miserable or overtired. I’m wondering if it better to give him a short nap in the morning and then try to push for a longer nap in the afternoon to allow us to go out and about to groups? Or is he still to young for that?
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It would be very unusual for a LO this age to only need one long and one short nap. He's only about 6.5 months, yes?
I think I'd probably increase the A time after a good nap and see if you can get another longer one in.
Is he waking so early every day? He used to wake later so he could well need that morning A time longer too, to encourage him to sleep until a later time in the morning.
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Yes he’s 6.5 months (7 months in 27th April) we are also getting 5am wake ups too and no resettling (he’s not crying he just talks to himself until we get him up) which makes me think a push in a time is needed. Will go for 3hr 10 for a few days and see where it gets us!
What age can you introduce a short nap and longer nap? Is this the age that you can also have set nap times?
Thank you for your help - I’m sure I’ll be back!
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Back already - did 3hr 15 this morning after a 5am wake up and still got 45 mins
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The age of one long and one short nap varies for each LO but it would be more like 8 - 10 months where people see the A times being so long that 2 long naps don't fit into the day any longer. At around 10 months LO can show signs of moving towards 1 nap which can take a while so that really is the time of 1 long and 1 short until LO can handle the A time needed to move to 1 nap properly.
Your LO is a few months off yet.
Set nap times we don't usually advise until LO is over 12 months and on 1 nap.
Some families need set naps sooner than this because of their circumstances. That's why we try to respond to individual needs to work with both the LO's and the family needs to get a reasonable routine.
With regards to this morning's short nap I'd do a full A time before you attempt nap 2 and then use the W2S to try to keep him asleep for a decent time.
I would do another day of 3hr 15 tomorrow I think and use W2S at the transition.
Is there a chance he is OT before BT? That can also cause earlier waking.
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Ok thank you, I’ll research w2s as I’ve never done it. I know he can transition as we do get longer naps occasionally!
Ok I’ll do full a time again before second nap and see how we get on. I don’t think he’s tired before bed as he’s having a 20-30 Mum cat nap around 4.30-5.15pm to get him through to bedtime at 7ish as he is usually awake from his second nap at 3.
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If you scroll up to my first reply to this thread there is a link to the W2S (wake to sleep) method. It thought you'd already given it a go which is why I didn't expand further in my latest post.
have a try, sometimes it just takes a few days to get the nap consistently longer. It can help LOs to get into the habit of longer naps.
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Ok so things are just getting worse
Today I really watched to see when he seemed tired and also tried W2S to see if that would make a difference (I read that it can take 2 or 3 days to make a difference).
He woke at 5.30 and at 8.45 he seemed to be tired - showing disinterest in any toys. So I took him in to his room read a short story, sang a song and put him down. He cried (seemed to be resistance rather than OT but was asleep in 5 minutes. Went in at 30 mins and stroked his cheek to make him stir and then left. He woke up at 40 mins. He was happy though and not crying. Kept him up for another 3 hours. Started to fuss so did bedtime routine and put him down, thinknhe may have been OT as he cried out at 20 mins. Went in at 30 mins and he woke up at 40 mins crying but would not resettle. ( he doesn’t seem to like my help to get him to sleep - it seems to make him worse. Anyway I ended up getting him up and we had to go for a walk in the buggy to run a few errand, he fell asleep at 3.45 and woke at 4.30. Bedtime was at 7.
After sleeping through for the last 5 nights, he woke up at 2 firstly he was just chatting to himself but after 30 mins would not resettle at all and was getting upset so he had a feed and went back to sleep he then woke at 4 and 5.30 but went back to sleep both times within 10 minutes..
I feel at a real loss. I’m not sure if I’m doing too much a time or if he needs a really long first a time
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It sounds like he is UT (under tired) for the first nap. You could increase that A time without necessarily increasing all the A times across the day.
Maybe try a change of scene, move to a different room, if he loses interest in the toys. Or perhaps a small snack? Would he be interested?
If you read through the W2S link look at option 1 for naps, instead of disturbing him at 30 mins sit and wait for him to start stirring. Have your hand ready or on him and begin a little rocking or patting with a firm hand. This can be more successful and also if you catch him when he is barely waking he may not realise you are there but be soothed back to sleep by the motion. Mine would also be annoyed with me being in there if he fully woke and only wanted to get up out of bed, it was better he didn't realise I was there.
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Back again! Naps seem to be getting slightly better. I took naps back to the 3 hour mark and we are now generally getting 1hr 20 naps which is great. I’m slowly working on increasing the A time now by 5 min intervals to see if we can extend them anymore.
The majority of nights we are going with no wake ups now. Bedtime us 7pm but no matter what naps he hands had in the day and if he has had 3 hours before bed or 2 hours before bed - he wakes up every morning at 5.45 in the dot! It’s only about 15-30 mins earlier than I would like him to wake up really but not sure if it’s sonething I should just go with and eventually he’ll sleep longer? It does cause an issue at the moment though as 2 x 1hr 20 min naps doesn’t quite get us to bed time but I can’t do an earlier bedtime due to having a toddler to sort out. Any thoughts?
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The 1hr 20 naps are likely UT and he'd need to do a third cycle of 40 min to get 2hrs (LOs with 40 min cycle can do 3 cycles). This could mean you need to teach him this habit as he is used to waking. Again W2S can help with habit forming on nap length - not just A time increase.
The mornings sound like that's just when his body clock is set to wake, mine was the same. Always waking early no matter what. I just put up with it until he was older as nothing I did seemed to resolve it. I did though manage to shift his body clock when the clocks changed by shifting the day by 1.5-2hrs instead of just 1 hr. You could try that, it leads to short term OT before the body clock is overridden and they wake later. You may also find that it just works out fine once you get one or both naps up to 2hrs though as that will take up more time in your day, BT can be later.
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That’s great thank you, I hadn’t thought that his 1hr 20 was still due to UT so will definitely try wake to sleep to try and extend them. Plus if this works, like you say we should be able to get to bedtime easier.
Think I’ll have to live with the 5.45 wake up! Lol. His brother wakes between 6-6.15 anyway so it’s not like he’s up extremely early!
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Think I’ll have to live with the 5.45 wake up! L
:) it's certainly not my favourite time of day. Mine woke as early as 4.30am on occasion, but usually 5/5.30am. I eventually managed to drag it through to 6.30am through sheer determination.
If the W2S really doesn't work aftera few days trying to extend the nap maybe add 5 min on the A time, it doesn't always need a big increase.
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Yes thankfully it’s not as early as 5am at the minute! He’s waking every other night at the moment and has a feed (tried upping milk in day but not worked) and in those days he sleeps later but only about 45 mins.
The last 2 days his second nap has finished at 2.45 - I can’t do bedtimecwarlier - should I push him through to 7 and see if it makes a difference to his naps - I sometimes wonder if he wakes early because he knows he’s going to get a catnap later?
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Hmm..it might be worth trying to shift both naps later so that you don't end up with a long A before BT or else you'll need a CN and maybe later BT. A very long A time before BT can cause EW. A nap too early in the morning can also add to EW.
What if you put in a CN one day then later BT and try to shift it all around when you go back to 2 naps the next day??
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Ok I can try that.
Yesterday he woke up at 2.45 - I tried a catnap at 5 but he just moaned for 40 mins so I got him up in the end as I had no option of going out in buggy or car to get nap. I guess ideally his cat nap would have been around 5.30 at the earliest in terms of a times but then bedtime would have been pushed back until 8/8.30 which I don’t really want to do.
Anyway he was in bed for 6.45 and asleep by 7. He woke at 11.30 but he was wet so not sure if he woke due to being it at bedtime or because if that. He also had a feed and went back to sleep pretty quickly and then woke at 6.15 this morning.
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Hi - I’m back again we are still really struggling with naps, the last few days we have had a 5.30 wake up it doesn’t seem to matter when I offer the morning nap or if I do a cat nap or not we get the same time usually 5.30-5.45. Because he is awake do early, the first nap is early - around 8.30-8.45. He is sleeping well here - I guess because he is tired from waking early - we get 1hr 20 - I have tried extending it using w2s but it makes no difference at all. Wakes anywhere between 9.50-10.05 which means next nap is around 1 - this can vary from 30 mins to 1hr 20, however again I cannot extend it no matter what I do. He’s waking so early from this which means he needs a cat nap to get him to 7 for bedtime, but I can only get it in the car or in a buggy not in his cot. I’m not really sure what to do and if I’m doing things correctly - I feel he should firmly been on 2 sleeps now,
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Hi
It could just be that he needs longer in the morning before his nap. If the nap is too early it can lead to earlier waking in the morning.
As he is 7 months now the guidance is around 3hr 15 but you'll see on here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
that some get more than this. My own DS will have been on longer for his first A time of the day, he always needed longer than guidance for the first A time and shorter for the second and last. As you are offering 3hr to 3hr 15 perhaps focus more on the 3hr15 or increase a bit, another 5 or 10 mins may help, if not it's okay to go a bit longer until you find the sweet spot.
Night length might be okay at 10.5hrs. That's what mine did too. If you have a CN and a 7pm BT he might be getting as much sleep as he needs and just unable to do a longer night.
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Ok thanks, will push towards that 3.5 hours or bit longer for the next few days
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We seem to be having some success- past 3 days we have had 2x2hr naps! In fact at the 2hr mark I’ve had to go in and wake him up!
However we’re back to 5.30 wake ups so wonder if I’m letting him sleep too much/too late in afternoon?
Yesterday was
6am - wake
9.15 - take up to bed read story and put down - asleep by 9.25
11.30 - I went to wake him up - was happy as he stirred as I went in
2.40 - in bedroom with story, asleep by 2.45
4.40 - woke him up as thought it may interfere with bedtime
7.00 - feed, story and in bed by 7.20. Asleep at 7.25/7.30.
Should I cap the afternoon nap a bit as I want to retain 7.00ish bedtime.
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We seem to be having some success- past 3 days we have had 2x2hr naps! In fact at the 2hr mark I’ve had to go in and wake him up!
Brilliant! Easy fix!
Hmmm...you could try a capped second nap but just be aware that capped naps do not suit every LO. Sometimes their mood ends up so awful that it is preferable to keep the long nap and just put up with the later BT for a while. I know when my DS's BT moved from 7pm later and later up to 8pm I wasn't keen, I was always exhausted by the end of the day and really needed to stop at 7pm, but the reality for me was that he was easier to be with if he wasn't a terrible grump, so a longer nap and later BT was a much calmer routine and actually I surprised myself and got used to the 8pm BTs, so much so that when his routine changed and he needed earlier BT I found it hard to fit every thing in and kind of missed spending that last bit of time with him. in a way I was resistant to my own routine changing but once it was changed I just got used to it.
so, yes, you can try a capped nap but it may not be the best option - just see.
If you do choose to cap the second nap shorter I think I might suggest letting him wake naturally from nap 1 so that he is not woken from both naps. you might also find reducing the A time a little before nap 2 helps to reduce the nap length (I know you just increased the A time!).
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Ok naps are going well but we’re back to 5am/5.15 wake ups! Don’t think a push in a time is needed as he’s definitely ready for his nap when I put him down.
Here is the past 2 days routine
WU 5.15
Nap 1 - up at 8.30 asleep
Wu - 10.45
Nap 2 - 2pm
Wu - 4
Bedtime 7 askerpby7.15
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He's getting 2 great naps and might not actually need or be able to do more than 10hr nights with those 2 good naps during the day.
A couple of things you could try:
- check for black out in the bedroom. Another thread has just reminded me of how important good black out is. Any chink of light can have LO waking earlier.
- cap one of the naps, perhaps making sure that neither go past 2hrs.
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Ok thanks, his room is very dark as his window is the side of the house where the sun shines in the morning so I made sure it was dark even before he was born! Lol.
Ok I might cap one of his naps - potentially the afternoon one.
Is there a post on here somewhere saying roughly how much sleep is needed at each age?
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Rough guidance on sleep times, try not to get too focused on it as it can drive you a bit nuts if your LO doesn't do the exact amount (ok it can drive me a bit nuts, I always worried my DS didn't sleep enough, he couldn't make those hours):
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0
reducing one of the naps is more common around 8 months I would say but as always every LO is different.
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Brilliant - thank you - I’ll try not to get hung up on it but I like having a guide!
He’s 8 months in 10 days time! Eventually I want to move to a 45-1hr nap in morning and then a longer afternoon nap.
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Ah quite close to 8 months.
Perhaps reduce the first nap just by 10 mins and see if things improve overall? You can continue to shave a bit off that nap as the weeks and months go by on the route towards 1 nap but I'd only take a bit off when you see it is needed rather than as a matter of course. You might also need to bring the second nap a bit earlier as you reduce the length of the first nap.
Hope that makes sense.
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Ok thanks, I think I might just have to live with the 5.30 wake ups as it doesn’t seem to matter what naps he has had, we’ve had 2 days on routine and 2 off routine this week and he still wakes at 5.30. My toddler is going it too so it’s like they are both in the habit of it now!