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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: robinsegg on April 10, 2018, 16:00:57 pm
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Updated-See last post. Not sure how to sleep train my 15 month old.
Hi BW,
I am having trouble navigating the 2-1 transition. My DS is going to be one in a few days. I would say he is spirited. Shh pat never worked when he was younger and less has always been more in terms of intervention. He has always been on the lower end of sleep needs. Our problems right now are long NW, EW (will go back to sleep, usually in our bed), catnap refusals. He does not go to sleep until he does his A time, even if he is really tired (unless a nap is his idea). Taking him to his room early always fails. His first A time is around 3h 45 min, second is 4h, and the last one is just under 4 hours.
A typical day looks like this
WU 715, BF (I wake him)
E 745
S 1045 - This nap ranges from 1hr 10- 1hr 30 min
WU 1200, BF
E 1215
E snack around 3
S 4:00 Attempt a catnap. I have been keeping this one to about 30 minutes.
WU 4:30, BF
E 6:00, BF again after supper
BT 8:00 We take him to his room, hopefully asleep around 8:15-8:30
Yesterday
He had a 2 hour NW the night before for 2 hours and only got around 8 hours of sleep.
WU 705
S Tried at 1000, failed (he was acting quite tired) Finally asleep at 1045.
WU 1230
S 420 Tried a catnap and failed.
E 6:00 supper
S 6:20 In bed asleep
WU 8:00 lasted 1.5 hours. I ended up feeding him because he had missed his bedtime feed with the early BT
EW at 520 but fell back asleep.
WU 6:20 for the day.
For his wind down I change his diaper, read a book or 2 and then I sit in the dark and sing 2 songs and I put him down. I think I am a prop to him, my husband usually has more success with him than me. I usually put my hand on him to settle him. He loves to play with my fingers as he settles. If I put my hand on him on his lower legs he squirms until he can grab my hand and pull it up to his chest. I am working on taking my hand away when he is quiet. He has a security object in his crib but has not attached to it. I do PD if he stands up, sometimes it ends up being a game. This would likely be the case if I brought him up early. I usually fall for his tired signs and then end up taking him our of his room if it is clear is not tired enough yet. We go out and he plays for another 10-15min and we try again. If I stay in his room and keep at it he goes until he hits his usual A time. He will go down nicely if I get the A time just right.
We have pretty much dropped the night feeds now.
I try to give him at least 2 hours of day sleep. Not sure if I should make the catnap longer. Since he has to do full A times though lengthening that nap makes bedtime later and his nights are so short as it is. The NW usually last 1-2 hours. When he has an overtired WU it is hard to get him back to sleep. He has a hard time getting past the 10 minute mark. If he is upset and I pick him up he generally arches and thrusts himself around (not with my husband). Therefore I always try and settle him in his crib. His EW are usually around 5-6 am.
He is happy during his A times and loves to play. He acts tired at times but is content otherwise. I have tried the short long a bit. I haven't done it for many days in a row though. My problem is that I would wake him at 30 minutes but then he will want to do his 4 hr A time then the second nap is long and late.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Do we just ride this out as is? I go back to shift work soon and would like to have him on a schedule that works for him. When he starts daycare he will likely only be getting one nap a day. I only work part time though. I made it work with my DD, she didn't drop to 1 nap until 18 months.
Thanks so much!
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Another nap refusal this afternoon. He did a morning nap of 1h 20 minutes. I felt like he was just bordering on overtired when I was putting him down. I should clarify that I bring him to his room at 4 hours, so his A time is more like 4h 10 min or so.
I also wanted to add that he has not slept through the night since birth. 6 hours is about as long as he has done.
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Yesterday I let him sleep in until 9 am. He had been up at 520, then 620 and went back to sleep at his morning feed.
9am WU
1 Nap
330 WU
8 BT
11 WU -wakes often 3 hours after going to bed
350-WU went on for 2 hours until I brought him to bed. Crying in his crib. Tried staying with him and WIWO
Today:
WU 830 - I woke him
Nap 1240
WU 205
Will have to do an early bedtime. At what point do you stop preserving 2 naps and just go for it? He is starting to freestand a bit, getting closer to walking.
Any thoughts??
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Hi there. Just wanted to offer hugs and support. My LO just turned one. We just finished two weeks of NWs and short naps galore. When did yours start? I found it hard to decipher but he was unwell, just started a wonder week/leap plus he had his 12mo shots. The latter always messes his sleep big time. It looks like your LO is similar to mine in that my LO is also LSN, you’re doing long then short nap, and we’ve been working on 2-1 in what feels like forever.
Are you able to extend his first AT? Especially on a good or semi-good night, you might be able to extend? I know this will make your day longer but I would cap (if there is time for one) the CN, 10-15mins if you need to. While I was doing this, LOs day was as long as 13-13.45h, until he short napped and EWs so I had to force-extend his first AT. Eventually, I was able to extend the second AT too that there’s no time for a CN and we alternated 2/1 for a bit. He now does one- more than 2-nap days.
I can imagine how hard it is with so many and long NWs; you must be so tired. And you’re going back to work soon... they’re just so hard to figure out sometimes aren’t they? Hugs
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Thanks for your help!
It's hard to say when the long NW started. He was sick with a cold/fever in early March and I would say since then sleep has been especially rough.
I did give him an early BT (620) last evening but not enough as it seemed. He was up on and off (first WU 30 min after BT) and had a 1h 15min wakeup from 10-1115. I did feed him and slept from then until 620. This morning his A time was 4h 10 min and he went down nicely but only slept 1h 10 min. I would agree then that he needs an A time push. He did the same yesterday. We will work on that probably in 15 min increments. His nights only seem to be about 10.5 hrs long. I hate the NW esp because I feel it robs him of his night sleep which is so short.
How long are the nights for your LO? What does a 1 & 2 nap day look like for him? Do you have a nap cutoff time for late afternoon?
It is taking me a bit of time to accept that we need to push through to one nap but it seems like it is what he needs.
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That’s awful. You have very little me time in the evening. That reminds me of when we had crazy evenings too. He woke 9 times overnight, majority of which was after I put him down around 7pm. We just waited it out and comforted him as much as we can, knowing full well I needed to do GW afterwards which surprisingly only took 2 nights.
Anyways, to answer your questions, now that we’ve recovered his nights are 10.5-11.5h long. Used to be 10-10.5h with consistent 2 naps. He’s taking consistent 2-3h naps, occasionally needing resettling at 1.20. His first AT before the dreadful two weeks were 5.35-6.10h. Then it dropped to less than 5h when he was recovering, slowly extending to the current 5.45-6.30h. His sleepy cues had recently become reliable so we follow that, as long as it’s within the A window. Yesterday, he started curling up on me looking sleepy at 3.45h AT 😳 so I put him in the crib and he still slept 2h. It was def a 2-nap day as he can only stand max 4.5h before BT. For 2nd AT, I play it by ear to be honest. No cutoff time. But I cap the nap from 10-30 (usually 15/20m), depending how far we are from BT. I base bedtime mostly on the length of his day, ideally 10.30-10.45 if I could. Usually ends at around 7:30-8:15pm. Oh and I count from the time we pick him up (7-7:30am), not the time he wakes (sometimes 6:15am). That’s always worked well for us l, thanks to Creations and Becj.
I guess I didn’t answer about 2-naps. If he appears VERY sleepy and I couldn’t extend anymore, which usually happens around 11am or noon, then it’s a 2-nap day. We APOP after 3-3.15h for a CN, praying for one which usually is not an issue. Then BT.
I hope I answered your questions; these are what worked for us but always a work in progress. I hope you find what works for your LO very soon. They keep changing so quickly, it’s mind-boggling!
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Thanks for that. There is no "normal" it seems when it comes to babies and sleep, constant change. We have had some better nights that include a 7 hour stretch. I am doing 1 feed a night again.
Yesterday DS had a 14 hour day:
WU 6am
Nap 1 1015-1140
Nap 2 410-440
Bed 8
We had a short waking and feed at 12am and a 2 hour long waking at 230-430. I did WIWO but I feel he will be awake for that long no matter what I do. Is it the catnap that causes the NW?
He had less than 10 hours of sleep last night. It will likely be a 1 nap day today. We are kind of stuck in a cycle. Long NW lead to later mornings and 1 nap and an early morning the next day thus 2 naps. It may not be a good idea to try to extend him on so little sleep today.
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Not sure if this would work for you, but even with crappy nights (long NW or VEMW), we get LO from nursery and start stimulation at 7-7:30 (7:30 if needed to be woken up, the latest). I try to treat every day as a reset day. Otherwise, it’ll be a cycle that keeps repeating itself.
How has the past few days been?
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You are right in that the cycle has to stop somewhere.
Tuesday- WU 6 (early BT the night before)
Nap 1040-1230
Nap 440-5 Maybe should have pushed
through?
BT 8
Cried out, needed quick reassurances and had 1
feed at 330.
Wednesday- WU 720
Nap 12-2
BT 7 - fell asleep nicely but has been up
off & on. Maybe BT should have
been earlier?
Those late afternoon short catnaps seem to do more harm than good. He's handling the longer A time well. I hope it doesn't turn into OT.
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That’s great news. He’s having more night sleep! We can only learn from the past days and the next day is a new day. :)
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Up for 1 1/2 hours last night but you are right. Pretty good overall.
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Down to 1 two hour nap a day. Every second or third night he has a long NW. Last night from 1030-1245. What causes these?
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DS is now 14 months. He still wakes 2-3 times a night and sleeps at most 6 hour stretches. Walking is well established and his first molar is through with another one soon to be through. He has not been doing the long wake ups too recently. Some nights I give him pain meds in case it's teeth but it doesn't seem to make a difference.
I feel like his problem is he can't put himself to sleep. However, when I go in when he cries he doesn't want me to hold him long. He thrashes around until I put him down. Then I stay with a hand on him until he settles. Often times he is restless in the crib and has a hard time settling.
His nap is roughly from 1215-2 ish. He eats well. He still BF 2-3 times a day. I will feed him when he wakes around 10-11 and then not until morning. His mornings start earlier now as well. He is usually up around 6. He goes up to his room around 710.
I keep thinking he will get it. These broken nights are routine now but it would be great if he would sleep through. Any thoughts?
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DS is now 15 months and we are pretty much at rock bottom in terms of his night sleep. His molars are all through now. He is learning new words almost daily. He has not slept through since birth and we are all exhausted. His day looks like this:
644-715 WU
1220-245 ish nap
730 BT
He goes down well for naps. He sometimes will talk himself to sleep. Occasionally I have to go back to settle but he naps everyday.
My husband does his BT routine. He usually cries after being put in and it can take until 8 ish to settle him. His subsequent wake ups are variable in terms of when. He wakes up crying and it goes on and on, sometimes for hours. We go in and tell him it's BT, give him his stuffie and leave. This makes him very upset. He loves touching my hands while he settles. I have tried sitting with my back to him and it angers him. Staying for long periods by his crib comforting him also doesn't work.
All of these broken nights have got to have him just as tired as we are. He has always seemed to be MSN and doesn't respond well to bring put to bed too early. He eats well all day. I want to try a snack close to BT in case he gets hungry.
How do I teach him to sleep??
Any help is appreciated.
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Sorry, *LSN
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Hi, sorry you've not had any recent replies.
My first thought would be that his routine doesn't look typical of a LSNs baby so may be he is undertired at bedtime and in the night if you believe he's LSNs. Perhaps pushing bedtime a bit later would help. Or would he prefer you to put him down? Are you breastfeeding him at bedtime? Does that not help him settle? Is he having any night feeds?
Also, please know that it's very common for babies this age to have night wakings. There are lots of developmental milestones and leaps going on which disturb sleep. This is a prime age for separation anxiety to ramp up. This is especially common for babies who are away from their mothers during the day, and particularly when breastfed. To protect the nursing supply and the relationship they do something called reverse cycling. They wake and are compelled to nurse and check mum is there. It's to make up for lost time during the day and to touch base. That's probably why he likes to feel your hand on him. He's enjoying the comfort the touch is providing. It's all very normal. Tiring but normal 😊
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Thanks for your reply. He has seemed to like a longer awake time before bed so maybe we should stretch that out. Should we be aiming for a 13 hour day?
It could be separation anxiety. He is quite clingy to me although on nights I put him to bed he cries and resists sleep for me as well. If I put him to bed I feed him before we read books. I try not to feed him at night but sometimes he's fed up to 2 times.
Should we continue to provide physical reassurance right now in the night and wait until this passes to work on more independence? I'm sure his canines will be coming soon. His sleep has always been different levels of bad and there always seems to be something to blame.
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Yes definitely I'd continue providing the reassurance at night. It's common to still breastfeed at night at this age. My middle two did .
And yes if he's LSN he may need a longer day. I'd increase it gradually though not in one big leap. Perhaps 10-15 minutes every couple of days?