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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: NattysMom on May 20, 2018, 02:01:32 am
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My lo is 2 weeks past her first birthday, as of a month ago she was weaned from nursing at night and had just started sleeping through the night using gradual withdrawal for the one last night waking. Before that she had never slept through the night. Then she got sick, then she got her first tooth and then we started daycare (I went back to work). Her naps at daycare became mostly 30 mins which equals OT almost every day. So the last month basically all my training has gone out the window. She wakes up 2-3 times a night and at first I nursed her because of the sickness, teeth, being away at daycare so I wanted to give her that extra comfort. I’ve stopped nursing at night but she’s still waking 2-3 times a night and unfortunately I end up bringing her to bed with me if she doesn’t settle quickly. She has been at daycare for 3 weeks now and she sometimes has longer naps. I was hoping her naps would go back to her usual 2 hours but that hasn’t happened yet. What I’m wondering is can I sleep train again using gradual withdrawal when she’s so OT? Or is there another way I can handle this? I need something fast, when we did gradual withdrawal it was very slow.
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Hi there, Nursery for us always caused big sleep disruptions, the NW is prob the need to check you’re there and SA could be kicking in. I’d stick to GW as other methods might upset her if that’s what she’s used to.
Also if she’s OT that can cause the Nw what is WU and BT?
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Wake up is 630-645 and bedtime is 7-730.
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If the nap is only 30 mins I’d bring BT earlier to give her a 12 hour day x
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We do a bedtime 6/630 when that happens. Today for example wake up at 640, nap is supposed to be at 1 but refused until 3, woke at 330, bedtime 630.
We will try GW tonight and see how it goes. I feel that we don’t make much progress, I do pick her up if she’s very upset, does that confuse her?
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GW is really about just using your voice to calm but I’d pick up to if very upset.
Mid she walking yet? Learning anything new? All these things can make sleep a pain x
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Yup. Just started walking 2 weeks ago.
I have a hard time knowing if she’s in pain or just OT. She was rarely OT before daycare started.
When we did GW previously after a month I was still doing the same thing. I pat her or put my hand in her if she’s really upset and use reassuring sleepy phrase. If she’s not freaking out I sit there with my back to her only reassuring her if she gets upset and try to leave the room.
I feel that when she’s OT she has a much harder time going to sleep without extra help. This week even when I hold her she’s super upset.
She may also not be taking a full feed before bed because she’s so tired.
I just don’t know what to do. It was hard when she wasn’t OT and now it seems impossible. I guess we’ll start Friday night that way if we’re up for 3 hours in the night we can sleep in at least.
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They do have birthday developmental leaps so that and new Nursery could all be contributing and it may just be a case of waiting it out for couple more weeks.
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Ok. I think I will wait it out. Do you think the longer I wait the harder it will be to change?
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The OT you can try and manage but EBT, but if it’s down to developmental it can just ease up and go back on it’s own.
How are weekends does she nap better then?
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On the weekends sometimes she’ll have 2 short naps and sometimes she’ll have a long 2 hour one. At daycare this week she did 30-60 min and today she had no nap.
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Ate the nights better at the weekend?
Oh dear no nap, hope she had a good night. What time do they try them for naps?
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Nights are the same on the weekend even with 2+ hour naps. Yesterday she had a 2h nap. Last night she was up for 2hours, from 1230-230, she really wanted to nurse back to sleep. Today she had 2.5h nap.
At daycare naptime is at 1. Sometimes she’ll keep refusing and finally go down by 3.
On weekends I do 6h A in morning and 4.5-5h A before bed.
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Hi :)
I wonder if daycare would try putting her down first or last out of the group so she can settle a bit more easily? I get that naptime is 1pm but they can't possibly put everyone down at the same time, so someone would go first ~12:30-12:40ish and so on til the last one is down at 1ish then the staff can take their lunches.
Would daycare consider giving her 2 naps? 2x30mins is better than 1x30mins...
Something that helped us was getting DS put into a quiet corner to read/sit/whatever before nap time so he could wind down rather than going straight from the chaos of lunchtime and cleanup to sleep which just turned out to be too hard for him.
It does sound a lot like some of this is 'just' that she misses you - lots of people find babies who previously slept through wake for nighttime snuggles when they go back to work and LO goes to daycare.
I would certainly stick with EBT for those days with no nap or only 30mins - you can even do super EBT at 5pm if she's ready to go down - she may well tack on and sleep 12-13hr, maybe even 14hr overnight at times.
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She had 2 30 Min naps today since she woke up super early. It doesn’t seem to help though, she stays up later since she refuses bedtime without a decent A time before bed. When I put her to bed early she never does more than 12h. Lately it’s been even less than 11 if you count the amount she’s awake in the night sometimes. She’ll wake up as early as 5 some days and she doesn’t need to be up until 645. The earliest bedtime we can do is 6 anyway after dinner etc. We’re not home until almost 5.
The other kids at daycare are older so they don’t really need to get put Down. It’s possible she needs more wind down after lunch, but I don’t think she’ll be able to bring lunch up earlier because of the other kids. I think her A time before naptime is too long for her. I don’t ask too many details because she’s been looking after kids longer than I’ve been alive.
It’s possible she could just be missing me but I think it’s OT. Shes not really clingy, more that she’s mad I’m trying to make her sleep. Even if I bring her to bed she’s still upset and doesn’t seem to like it. She’s never really slept through the night. She had just started. When she woke up before I was almost always able to settle her quite easily. But now even if I were to hold her back to sleep for half an hour (or sometimes nurse her) she’d freak out as soon as I put her in her crib. Naps are completely fine and have always been way easier to deal with than through the night.
I don’t know how much longer I can wait for things to get better. Having her in our bed is affecting our sleep and she’s spending more and more time in it. I just don’t know if GW is a good idea right now. But I don’t know What else to do. I think that if she woke up less she’d get more sleep so maybe it’s worth it. Maybe I’m not doing it right because it takes so long.
Tonight she woke up an hour after going to bed, I held her while she cried, she eventually calmed down and got sleepy. I held her for 5-10 more mins and then she freaked out when I tried to put her down. She gestures to leave her room and doesn’t want to sleep. She was still crying so I tried putting her down in crib instead. I comforted her for half an hour as she screamed. Eventually couldn’t take it anymore so I nursed her. She took it happily and got sleepy. She never once indicated that’s what she wanted but I was able to put her down, still awake but very sleepy and left no problem.
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The other kids at daycare are older so they don’t really need to get put Down.
So why can't nap time be earlier, when it suits your DD if she's not tying it in with other kids?
She gestures to leave her room and doesn’t want to sleep. She was still crying so I tried putting her down in crib instead. I comforted her for half an hour as she screamed. Eventually couldn’t take it anymore so I nursed her. She took it happily and got sleepy. She never once indicated that’s what she wanted but I was able to put her down, still awake but very sleepy and left no problem.
Do you usually feed somewhere other than her room?
Gee, its a tricky one. How long has she been at daycare now?
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She’s been at daycare 5 weeks. Lunch starts at 12, they have a little playtime and then nap at 1. That’s just what she does, I’ll see if I can get some more details. If she wakes up at 645 and naps at 1 that’s not bad but getting her to sleep until 645 is hard.
I nurse her in the living room usually but if I were to APOP like that time it would be in her room to stay in the darkness.
She used to fight naps around 9mo and she would gesture to leave her room and calm down if I did. The solution to that was to increase her A time greatly and went to one nap. So in my experience it’s when she doesn’t want to sleep. It’s like she treated her bedtime as a nap I think.
My main issue is when she wakes up in the night and after she’s calm and falling asleep again (with or without nursing) I’ll put her in her crib and she’ll get upset immediately or she’ll go down fine but wake up 20 mins later and at that point I usually bring her to bed and even then she’s still fussy and needs to be calmed again.
I don’t work for the next 3 days so I’m going to attempt GW but I’m not really confident in what I’m doing. I’m going to do the same as In The past and hopefully I make faster progress than last time.
This is my plan:
She wakes up in night, I usually let her fuss until she gets upset hoping she’ll go back to sleep but almost never.
I’ll pick her up if she’s really upset. Then lay her down when she’s calm. If needed I’ll repeat.
When she’s not freaking out I’ll sit on floor with my back to her. Repeat my sleepy phrase. I rub her leg or whatever I can reach if she’s crying (which she will be). If she’s quiet I’m quiet.
I’m pretty sure this is going to take hours the first night. Hopefully gets less as the days go on, so by back to work Monday it’s less than 30 mins, although last time it was all over the place. I’ll use for naps too. Naps are so much easier!
How does this sound? Should I do anything different? Ive never been able to identify a mantra cry, will that make any difference?
Also right now I’ll nurse her if after 4am but I want her to sleep straight through until 645. Do I use the same GW technique for every wake up?
At BT I nurse her until drowsy (my next project), then put her down, walk away no problem. I think because she’s so tired. But why is it not like this during the night? I tried to do something in BT routine after nursing so it wasn’t right to bed (at 3mo) but she would just keep refusing to eat and then would get super OT so I just gave up.
Last night she slept straight through from 730 BT until 420 at which point I nursed, was able to put her down but then she woke 20 moms later and then I brought her to bed. This one wake up was amazing. But i think it was a fluke. We’ll see how tonight goes.
Thank you for your help!
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Last night was pretty good, she slept from 7pm-330. I did GW, I didn’t pick her up. She settled quite quickly, maybe 15-20mins? But each time I tried to leave she started up again. So I stayed until she fell asleep. The whole process took just over an hour. She woke for the day at 630. And last time I did GW I had the same problem, how or when do I leave the room?
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Ive never been able to identify a mantra cry, will that make any difference?
It does make a difference - because a mantra cry is part of self-soothing and if you jump in there, that's when you disrupt her getting off to sleep. I would always say to err on the side of assuming its not a mantra cry if you're not sure. A mantra cry is a rhythmic cry that doesn't escalate, has short bits of silence in it.
Your GW plan looks fine.
I still think the separation from you could be part of the explanation, esp. for the waking again after 20min when she's just gone back to sleep, for instance. I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty, its part of many people's lives that LO misses their mum/dad. My son still misses me and tells me so daily at 7yo. I make an effort to really connect with him before bed, so a long chat works for him (he still wakes in the early hours of the morning with bad dreams if I don't do this) but your DD may need to be cuddling you in a carrier while you prepare dinner or may benefit from the connection obvious in you feeding her dinner or something else entirely that helps her feel close to you in that time between getting home and going to bed.
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She goes silent a lot when she’s crying so I think it could be mantra most of the time. Is it still mantra if shes standing or sitting?
She’s always done the waking up after being resettled in the middle of the night, since she was little. It would be anywhere from 5-30 mins. I’m still breastfeeding so we have a solid 30 mins of that and snuggling right before bed. But we are very short on time with the EBT on weekdays. I also BF sometimes right when we get home because at that time she’s a little clingy but then fine after.
Last night was really good again, she woke up around 230 and cried a little but went back to sleep on her own. But then woke at 5am.
When I do the GW she’ll lie down and try to go to sleep, definitely tired, she’ll be quiet and not move for 5-10 mins but then start up again and this usually happens 2-3 times.
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Last few nights she’s been sleeping really well but waking around 4/5. Last night she woke at 4/430 (?),she settled in less than a minute of me being there, I could hear her yawning and rolling around as I waited for her to fall asleep. Finally after 45 mins of that she stood up and by that time my husband was getting up and making noise so I gave in, brought her to bed and nursed her. She finally fell asleep around 545/6ish. I had to wake her up for the day at 645. I’m not really sure what to do because she always seems to wake around the same time my husband gets up. If I could get her back to sleep more quickly then she’d sleep through my husband getting up and sleep until 645.
The time it takes to resettle her has improved a lot but I still have no idea how to get out of her room without waiting for her to fall asleep which takes super long for some reason. If she hears me move to leave she starts up again.
Any ideas? Should I try walk in walk out instead? If I do WIWO when she cries and I go back to resettle her do I leave again as soon as she’s quiet or lies down? If she starts to cry again as Im leaving should I still go out and wait a min before going back?
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Last night she woke at 4/430 (?),she settled in less than a minute of me being there, I could hear her yawning and rolling around as I waited for her to fall asleep
So once she's settled, you can leave again. I think that's what you need to do to get anywhere further. She thinks she needs you there to fall asleep and if you stay, you're not teaching her anything. Even with GW, you have to make it out of the room at some point.
I’m not really sure what to do because she always seems to wake around the same time my husband gets up.
Is she disturbed by the noise? White noise might help, or wake to sleep an hour before he gets up to change her sleep cycle and see if she'll sleep through that.
If she starts to cry again as Im leaving should I still go out and wait a min before going back?
Yes, she's mantra crying isn't she? She's settled when you were there and she can only learn to go to sleep without you there when you're not there. If her cry escalates, go in and settle her, of course but if she's mantra crying, you're probably disturbing her attempts to settle rather than helping.
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She does have white noise. I think that if she wakes up for no reason and she hears noise then she won’t try to go back to sleep on her own. Last night she slept through until 415, resettled herself, woke again at 450, resettled herself again and then woke at 6 and my husband didn’t even give her the chance to try to resettle before picking her up. But now we had a no nap day. We’ll see how tonight goes.
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Last night was good again but she woke up an hour before her wake up time.
So if she wakes up early and I do GW but she never falls asleep until her wake up time at 645, is that ok? I just keep going and then when it’s time I give up?
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She been waking up early all week and won’t go back to sleep even if I nurse her. It doesn’t seem to matter what time she goes to bed at either. Always between 515-545.
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Sounds like its becoming habitual. Would you try wake to sleep for a week - just rouse her at about 4:15 and see if that resets her sleep cycle and helps her sleep later?
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I’ll for sure give it a try, she was so OT by the end of this week. In the past I tried to do W2S for extending naps but either it didn’t work or I’d wake her up too much.
I’m worried this is just EW from being so OT from the short naps and now the EW is making it even worse. It’s been 6 weeks of daycare. I don’t know if I should try to get the daycare provider to try some different ideas or just wait it out and hope she starts napping longer. We barely see her during the week with the EBT. A stranger now spends more time than we do with our daughter. It’s so sad. At least she’s still napping great for 2.25 hours on the weekend.
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She probably is OT. She's young for one nap and that one nap she is getting is short because she's OT by the time she gets it. She's also then having a shorter night than she should due to OT. I think your daycare provider could at least try to time a car nap of 10-20mins somewhere in the morning for your DD so she can get through to nap time at 1. I still don't understand why she cannot change nap time for one child when no other child in her care naps. It can take a long time for LOs to nap well at daycare - 6 weeks is probably not enough to know if its going to work out long term for her but she's clearly really OT and that's not fair on her, you, daycare lady or the other children.
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She’s been on one nap since 9/10 months. She won’t nap until she gets her 6h morning A time. The only way I can get her to catnap or have 2 naps is in the car.
The other kids do take a nap at the same time from 1-3. They have lunch at 12, then some wind down time before. They are just older so they go to sleep on their own and don’t need help.
Friday, Saturday & Sunday nights were bad as she’s teething again so night nursing and co-sleeping. She had 2-2.5 hour naps at daycare Monday and Tuesday (from teething?) but only 45 mins today. I’m hoping she does some more 2 hour naps this week, however, she won’t go to bed until 8pm sometimes, which is way too late for her wake time, because she needs 5h A time (she’s usually ok with 4-4.5h) before bed after a good nap.
So maybe if she does a proper wake up at 645am and good naps we’ll need to cap the nap at 3pm because sometimes she goes until 330pm and that messes up BT.
She’s back to sleeping good again last 2 nights sleeping through the night until 530-6. I’m going to try offering some milk in a bottle if she wakes early and will only nurse if after 630am. Hopefully this will keep her sleeping later or until I wake her.
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The other kids do take a nap at the same time from 1-3. They have lunch at 12, then some wind down time before. They are just older so they go to sleep on their own and don’t need help.
So can your LO go down for her nap during the other kids' WD time? That would be closer to what you do at home, no?
Glad the nights are getting better and that she's had a couple of good naps at daycare - light at the end of the tunnel.
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Only Monday and Tuesday she had long naps. I don’t think she’d fall asleep any earlier with the other kids still being awake. But if she stays asleep until 645 then that A time is fine. This week I will try wake to sleep at 4am. Hopefully having that wake up time will keep each day more consistent and maybe her naps will get longer.
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Fingers crossed for you!