BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: Tilsley1471 on May 22, 2018, 17:34:40 pm
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Hi all!
My baby is 8 months 3 days (although 7 months corrected).
Basically she slept through from a young age (8 weeks) but her naps were always bad and mainly cat naps. I then worked hard to get her from 5 30 min cat naps down to 4 naps (roughly at 7.30/8, 11ish, 2ish and then 4ish). She would go to bed at 6.30. She then started waking between 4.30 and 5 a few months ago and I wasn't sure if it was her teeth or not but she started fighting that last nap of the day and eventually she dropped it around a month ago. She then started taking a bit of a longer afternoon nap (1 hour to 1.5 hours) and was doing a 30 min nap at 8ish, a 30 min nap at 10.30/11 and then an afternoon nap at 2ish. She would then wake between 5.30/6 which is ok. Then last week she started fighting that 10.30/11 nap or only did 15 mins but was doing a 2 hour nap in the afternoon. The last few days though she's done a 35 min nap in the morning and then a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I'm not sure where it's going wrong again. I'm trying to stretch her awake time out a bit in the morning.
Today she did the following:
6am - wake up
6.30 - BF
7.15 - breakfast
8.40 - nap
9.15 - wake up
10.15 - bottle
12.20 - lunch
1.00 - nap
2.00 - woke up crying and couldn't resettle her
1.40 - bottle
4.45 - dinner
6.00 - bottle
6.10 - asleep
Thank you for any help you can give! I don't know whether to go back to a cat nap at 11 or at the end of the day but feel like we worked hard to get to 2 naps and it was working
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Hello welcome to BW forums :)
It looks like her first nap is just coming too early which (because there is no second morning CN to bridge the gap) is resulting in a very long second A time which could be leading to OT. The OT may be causing her a short afternoon nap because she can't relax enough.
I would just shift the first nap, it is very early for a baby this age and I would expect to see at least 3hrs awake. Whether the first nap lengthens or not it will still end later than it currently is making the next A time more suitable so you have a chance of at least one good nap in the day.
If she is repeatedly waking at 1hr in the afternoon I'd suggest a short term W2S (wake to sleep) to help her through the transition. Here is a description of W2S, you will need to adapt the times to suit, so go in and put a hand on (or ready yourself 1cm above her body) at about 50 mins and see her right through and into her next sleep cycle to try to avoid her fully waking and crying hard. Do this for several days.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Look at naps option 1 for guidance.
let us know how you get on
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Hi thank you so much for your reply. I thought her awake time wasn't long enough in the morning so I'm glad you've thought so too :)
I'm sorry if this is a bit premature as I've not done a whole day yet but I put her down this morning after 2.50 awake time and she was happy and fell asleep in 5 minutes so 2.55 awake time for first nap and she's woken after 30 minutes crying (she's been waking happy in the morning previously). I tried resettling for 20 minutes but she wouldn't go back to sleep. Shall I stick at 2.55 for a few days as wasn't sure if that's normal to start with when stretching out awake times and what sort of awake time would you do for the afternoon nap?
Thank you
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The reason I didn't mention the second A time is that it looked like you were doing a kind of set nap time at 2pm, the later morning nap and possibly longer will reduce that second A time anyway. You probably can't move it any earlier or you risk having too long an A time before BT. Hope that makes sense, you need that nap kind of in the middle between nap 1 and BT.
The 30 min crying could be either OT or UT. Often we say OT but the A time is so short I really doubt it, I suspect more that she was tired and wanted to sleep more but couldn't manage it. So I'd either increase the A a little more to get to the full 3hrs or even 3hr 10 and/or help her through with W2S. I'd be in there are the 30 min mark to help her if she needs it so she doesn't have to fully wake and cry for you, there is a better chance of a resettle if you are already in position.
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Thank you for your reply.
So yesterday we had:
WU: 6.20
E:6.30
E: 7.15 (solids)
A: 2.55 hours
S: 9.15 - 9.45 (woke crying)
E: 10.25
E: 12.00 (solids)
A: 3.25 hours
S: 1.10 - 2.20 (woke crying and couldn't resettle)
E: 3.30
E: 4.45 (solids)
E: 6.05
A: 3.55 hours
S: 6.15 - 6.50 (woke crying but went back to sleep)
Today so far:
WU: 6.50 (unusual for her as she normally wakes between 5.45 and 6.20)
E: 7.00
E: 8.10 (solids)
A: 3.05 hours
S: 9.55 - 11.00 (not sure if I woke her checking on her as friends were coming)
E: 11.05
E: 1.05 (solids)
A: 3.20 hours
S: 2.20 - 2.55 (woke crying and couldn't resettle nor did I get there in time to do W2S as was expecting an hour)
I know it's only part of a day but I'm wondering if 3.20 awake time between nap 1 and nap 2 wasn't long enough or if she was overtired and I need to bring it back?
Thank you
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Based on what you said about the second CN being dropped leaving a 30 min nap 8 - 8.30 and then the next nap at 2pm, this is a really long A time but your LO was often sleeping well for the afternoon nap (2hr) it seemed so I'd go with quite a long second A time. Unless of course your records show otherwise or you feel otherwise? Or I've misunderstood?
I did feel it was a bit too long and that was the reason she started waking crying in the middle of the afternoon nap - but with a later and longer first nap that should help.
Perhaps something like:
WU 6.30
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 10.30
A 3hr 30
S 2.00 - 4.00
A 3hr
BT 7
night 11.5hr
it's just an example, obviously you know LO better than I do :) If you feel the second A needs to be longer or BT later that's ok.
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Thank you again for your reply :-)
I think I confused things a bit sorry - looking at my logs, when I dropped that second cat nap, I brought the afternoon nap forward to about 12.40/12.45 and she would do 1.45-2 hours until Monday which is when she started crying after an hour).
She's had a 3.40 awake time tonight from second nap until BT and she wasn't too grumpy and fell asleep at 6.35 herself and is still asleep an hour later (at the mo - famous last words!).
It's encouraging that her morning nap went well today with that longer awake time :-) it's just trying to get that next one right now but I find it hard to know if she's overtired or undertired and whether 3.20 awake time just wasn't quite enough today.
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Ah, ok, I was basing my thoughts on her doing a really long A time from 8.30am at the end of nap 1 to 2pm for the start of nap 2.
Lets start again :)
If she was going from that morning CN until 12.40 it's still really long, like 4hr. And that could be where you need to head with that A time but it's a bit tricky to know with there being lots of changes.
How about trying 3hr or 3hr 10 for the first A and then 3hr 40 for the second? What do you think?
WU 6.30
A 3hr 10
S 9.40 - 10.40 (you probably don't want more than 1hr here as the day will end up long)
A 3hr 40
S 2.20 - 3.50/4.20 (1hr 30 - 2hr)
A
BT7/7.30
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Brilliant thank you - I will give that a go for a few days :-)
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Sorry just a quick question - if she does a 35 min nap in the morning, what sort of awake time would you have for that 2nd nap in that case? Today so far she had an unintentional A time of 3.35 hours and slept for 35 mins but woke happy and then she had an A time of 3.15 as I thought 3.40 would be too much after cat nap and she woke after 30 mins crying so OT I guess but not sure what A time to do if she does a CN in morning again?
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I'd probably go for the full A time anyway.
The guidance time for age is here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
You'll see the A time for 7 months is 3hr 15 and that some are getting more (some are substantially more because we work on what suits LO to get the best sleep not on a one-size-fits-all schedule). Also that at 8 months the guidance is 3-4 hrs.
Your LOs adjusted age is 7 months but I have usually seen that over the months the adjusted age often gets closer to real age in terms of sleep needs so we could be looking at something 7.5 - 8 months roughly as a guidance and this means A time can be anything from 3hr 15 - 4hrs as guidance.
I'm still basing my thoughts on her previously having a long second A time and getting a good nap out of it, we've already reduced that A time from 4hrs (which I think she was having) to 3hr 40...and it could well be that she needs longer rather than shorter, we don't really have anything to base this on yet.
So in the case of having a morning CN I think what I'd try is the full A time but then be prepared to get in there quickly to help resettle if there is a mid nap wake up. Use W2S to shush/pat (or firm hand) her back to sleep if you can and just help her to stay asleep for a good nap length. You might even decide to go back in at 20 - 30 min and just stay through the nap to help out as and when needed on the days when you don't get a decent first nap.
Sometimes waking early and crying can be caused by being UT - I know it's confusing as it can be either OT or UT but if you run the routine for a while hopefully there will be a pattern to indicate which way to go.
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Brilliant thank you.
Unfortunately she was an overtired mess yesterday and only had a 35 min nap and 30 min nap and then a few waking at bedtime and an early waking at 5.25 ::)
Today she's fallen asleep twice in her highchair at around 2.55-3 hours AT so I've had to put her up for naps. The problem is she's had an hour and then a 30 min one which she woke happy from (which suggests UT yet she fell asleep in her highchair!).
The problem is she's been awake since 12.50 so she's going to have to have another one and then I feel like it's back to 3 naps again but I guess that's ok to do after a bad night and EW to get her through and then hope she has a restful sleep so I can try the suggested AT from tomorrow for a few days?
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It's okay if you need to add an extra nap in one day.
She might have just needed to catch up from having had a bad day.
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So we've not had much success over the last few days - we've got EMW now which is messing up the day and she's falling asleep before 3 hours AT in her highchair or play mat etc. Here are the last few days:
Sunday
WU: 5.25
A: 2.55
S: 8.20-9.20
A: 3.00
S: 12.20-12.50
A: 2.05
S: 2.55-3.25
BT: 6.20
Monday
WU: 6.05
A: 3.10
S: 9.15-10.25
A: 3.40
S: 2.05-2.40
A: 3.40
BT: 6.20
Tuesday (at grandmas for the day)
WU: 5.25
A: 2.50
S: 8.15-9.15
A: 3.00
S: 12.15-2.30
A: 3.30
S: 6.00
Wednesday (we travelled home to South West for the day so sleep a bit all over the place)
WU: 6.00
A: 2.50
S: 8.50-9.25 (in car)
A: 2.50
S: 12.15-12.25 (in car)
A: 1.45
S: 2.10-2.55
A: 3.15
S: 6.10
Thursday (so far)
WU: 5.30
A: 2.55
S: 8.25-9.00
I just don't know what to do as I can't seem to stretch her out 3 hours at the mo as she keeps waking early and falling asleep before 3 hours yet only doing a short nap. I'm starting to get to my wits end as I feel like I need to go back to 3 naps a day which I really don't want to do. Thank you
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The night length is actually pretty goo, looks like 11 - 12hr which is fine so although it feels like an early wake up to you because it's 5.30am to her it is probably the end of her night. To improve this you'd nee to move the whole day on.
Tracy said in one of her books do anything to keep LO awake when routine needs fixing, she said do a fan dance if necessary. I think you might need to get the fan out ;)
Shift the entire day by 15 mins every day so even if she "can't do 3hrs" you'll need to employ methods to keep her awake.
I would find this easier if I wrote it down so that I knew each day when naps and feeds are then I could follow it, I've done this myself with clock changes. Rather than going on A times each day you work it out in advance and then stick to it for the week. You should then be an hour on with BT more like 7pm and WU more like 6.30am.
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What happens if she keeps doing overtired naps on 3 hours and therefore needing 3 or 4 30 min naps a day? Do I just keep sticking with it? Thank you again so much for your help at this stressful time!!!
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Shifting the day along by an hour (or whatever amount you need to get WU and BT at a reasonable time for you) is not a long term thing, it's short term and shouldn't take more than 1 week. There can be disturbance during that change but as you are experiencing a disturbed routine anyway I wouldn't think it much worse.
If you suspect she will wake early you can use the W2S method I linked above to help her stay asleep, it also tends to be quicker and easier to resettle an OT nap if you use this method rather than letting her fully wake.
If naps are OT they should be easier to resettle, it might take some effort if she fully wakes and cries but she ought to go back to sleep.
If you don't get her back to sleep you could add in a later CN and shift BT later in one day. The key to shifting a day along is to keep at it, LOs rarely move the routine the way we want them to on their own.
The other option is to leave the day as it is and let the routine settle down, that means accepting the 5.30/6am WU. These WUs are not considered EW as the night is a good length. True EW is when the night has gone too short.
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You're getting some great routine advice.
I'm wondering though based on her age, might she be teething? If so, try some pain meds before sleep time. If it makes a difference, then YAY! :)
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Thank you Creations :-)
Yes I think she is - her top two front teeth are so close to cutting through and it seems to be when she wakes from her afternoon nap her cheeks are bright red and hot and she's generally miserable
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Any updates? Have you had any relief from pain meds?
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One of the top teeth has cut and we've had some improvement but the morning nap went short today (30 mins) and she woke happy but fell back asleep 20 minutes later for 10 minutes and then woke crying. Should I increase A time by 15 minutes now?
Here are the last few days:
Friday
WU: 6.10
S: 9.10-10.15
S: 1.20-2.20
BT: 6.10
Saturday
WU: 5.15
S: 8.20-9.25
S: 12.45-1.20 (woke crying a lot and wouldn't resettle)
S: 3.10-3.40
BT: 7 (woke at 7.30 and resettled and back to sleep by 7.40)
Sunday
WU: 5.45
S: 8.45-9.30
S: 11.10-11.45 (in car)
S: 2.30-3.35
BT: 6.35
Monday (at grandmas for the day and night)
WU: 5.25
S: 8.30-9.00
S: 12-3
BT: 6
Tuesday
WU: 5.45
S: 8.20-8.30 (grandma brought her back then)
S: 9.50-11.00
S: 2-3.10
BT: 6.15
Wednesday
WU: 6.00
S: 9-10.10
S: 1.25-2.00 (woke crying and clearly in teething pain - gave pain meds)
S: 2.20-3.15
BT: 6.30
Thursday
WU: 6.00
S: 9-10.15
S: 1.20-2.25
BT: 6.30
Friday (so far)
WU: 6.00
S: 9.05-9.35
S: 9.55-10.05
S: 1-still sleeping at 1.55
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I think I'd be tempted to just increase the second A time as previously mentioned, where you used to have a longer A time. This might help to get a longer nap 2. Two 1hr naps are ok for some LOs but yours might be better with a longer second nap because I think that's what she was doing before. If nap 2 is consistently longer it reduces the risk of a very long A time before BT too. Some days that looks too long.
have you decided to stick with the natural WU time for now?
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I increased the 2nd A time for the last 2 days and got a 1.55 nap and a 1.30 nap (on a 3.15 A time). Yes I have been as 6am is a good time for us too which she's done the last few days
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Those nap lengths are better then. I'd perhaps increase to 3hr 25/30 and see what happens.
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Thank you - will try that :)
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What would be a good A time for last nap to bedtime if first A is 3.15 and second is 3.30? I'm not sure what to aim for
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I'd probably leave BT where it is as you have a relatively consistent night length, the long second A time might increase the second nap length and that means not having too long an A before BT rather than changing BT, does that make sense? For example where she had two 1hr naps and woke at around 2.30 if BT is 6.30 it's 4hrs which is probably too long for her based on her other times. If the nap is slightly later and long then the last A might be 3hr or 3hr 30 but BT doesn't necessarily have to move from the (roughly) 6.30pm you seem to be doing most days.
If it turns out she kicks off at BT due to UT then you can always take her out for 15 mins and try again the tweak the routine to allow for what she needs.
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Thank you as always 😊
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No problem. See how it goes and let us know.
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Hmmm so I'm not sure what's going on but the last few days naps have been going wrong again:
Weds
WU: 5.55
A: 3.15
S: 9.10-10.30
A: 3.5
S: 2-3
A: 3.25
S: 6.25
Thurs
WU: 6.05
A: 3.25
S: 9.30-10 (nap in pram as had baby clinic)
A: 3.5
S: 1.30-2.50
A: 3.35
S: 6.25
Fri
WU: 6.10
A: 3.15
S: 9.25-10.50
A: 3.5
S: 2.20-2.55
A: 3.5
S: 6.25
Sat
WU: 5.50
A: 3.25
S: 9.15-11.05
A: 3.40
S: 2.45-3.20
A: 3.25
S: 6.25
Sun
WU: 6
A: 3.15
S: 9.15-9.55
A: 3.25
S: 1.20-2.00
A: 4.20
S: 6.20
Today
WU: 5.55
A: 3.25
S: 9.20-10.25
A: 3.40
S: 2.05-2.40 (woke crying and managed to resettle for 20 more minutes)
S: 3.10-3.30
A: 2.55
S: 6.25
I'm a bit nervous to cut her am nap short as she just doesn't seem to be napping well in pm as she's had a couple short am naps and still had a short pm nap. I think the really long fri and sat am naps are because she was having a growth spurt and has cut 2 top front teeth. Where she was waking up before 6, I was putting her down for a nap at 9.15 as she was doing 3.15 A time and as I wanted 6am WU I kept it at 9.15 for first nap even if WU was earlier. Not sure if that's right or not!
I then thought to extend 1st A time to 3.25 (10 mins) as naps were getting shorter but it was still short today so I'm thinking 3.5 hours for 1st A time. I was then doing. 2nd A time of 3.40 to try and extend nap but she had OT 2nd nap today so I'm wondering if I should do 3.5 2nd A time if 1st nap is less than 1.15/1.20 hours and 3.40 hours if she has a 1st nap of anything over 1.20 hours - what are your thoughts on that?
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5.20 WU today :( I can only guess it's from OT due to lack of day sleep? Would I now push and keep her up until 9.30 when I'd want her to take her 1st nap?
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Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner - life.
I then thought to extend 1st A time to 3.25 (10 mins) as naps were getting shorter but it was still short today so I'm thinking 3.5 hours for 1st A time. I was then doing. 2nd A time of 3.40 to try and extend nap but she had OT 2nd nap today so I'm wondering if I should do 3.5 2nd A time if 1st nap is less than 1.15/1.20 hours and 3.40 hours if she has a 1st nap of anything over 1.20 hours - what are your thoughts on that?
Sounds like a good plan.
Would I now push and keep her up until 9.30 when I'd want her to take her 1st nap?
You can do yes. I agree with what you were saying about keeping her up until 9.15 rather than earlier on the days she woke earlier so if you are now extending first A time then, yes you can do this, first nap at 9.30am. 3hr 30 is not excessively long for her age and you've made a good record of her times which do seem to indicate an increase could be worth a shot now.
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That's ok - I'm just so grateful whenever you're able to help :-)
I'm still having issues with this pm nap. With a 3hr 30 A time I used to get good naps and as it went shorter I extended it to 3hr 40 but she was just OT. So I've taken it back to 3hr 30 and I'm still getting wake ups in tears after 35 mins and then after 10-15 mins I can eventually resettle her for another 35-40 mins. I think she is OT as when she was UT she would wake happy from these 35 min naps and I just could not settle her. I'm wondering if I should take it back to 3hr 20 although I don't understand why her AM nap is an hour or more on 3hr 30 A time but she may need less A time between 1st and 2nd nap? Or am I reading it completely wrong and she needs more A time between 1st and 2nd nap (although I'm hesitant to try more as she's just waking in tears).
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There is a chance of waking and crying being UT too - I know we usually say OT but you also need to look at the A times and what the history of A times tells us too. I have definitely experienced my DS waking crying when UT and I had many people advising to reduce A time but he had been doing longer happily prior to the problem...then one person suggested UT and I increased and it made him tired enough to transition which meant he slept longer and was happy again. So I think you are thinking on the right tracks of increasing to 3hr 40 but you might need ot help her, I'd go in and start W2S before she wakes so that she isn't screaming and try to catch her in the drowsy stage and rub, pat, stroke, or jiggle in the cot and use shush or key phrase to get her back off if possible.
Of course it could be the other way around and it could be OT but based on what youv'e said I get the idea of UT and just needs help to adapt.
Dashing out on the school pick up now but if any of this isn't clear let me know i'll try to get back later.
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Brill thank you!
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Great, see how you get on. Some times you just have to try and see.
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We are still having these 35 minute erratic naps again despite trying different A times. We are at 3 hours 30 for am nap which was getting 1.10-1.15 hour naps but now it's 35 minutes but she wakes happy so I'm wondering if that's UT now and to push that out to say 3 hours 40. She seems to prefer a long am nap and that used to be the most consistent and easiest one to get her to do a long nap for and then perhaps do a cat nap pm. The pm nap is just a disaster. Even on 3 hours 40 A time I'm getting 35 minute wakings but after about 10-15 minutes she will resettle herself so I don't know if that's UT or OT? She wakes fussing or crying or it escalates to crying. Thank you
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This morning we had a 5.25 wake up which I was sort of expecting seeing as yesterday's am nap was an UT one. I put her down at 9.25 and she fell asleep within minutes by 9.30 with no fuss and then woke 45 minutes later happy as Larry! Very confused what this means and what sort of A times to try now
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Hi
As you've increase to 4hr A time today I'd stick at that for a number of days and see if it helps. Try a W2S to soother her through the 45 min mark and see if you can extend that nap. If you don't have success in lengthening the nap over a period of days or a week I'd increase the first A time by another 15 mins and try W2S again.
If you get a good first nap I wouldn't be too concerned about the afternoon nap as you are unlikely to have time for a long nap.
Whilst you're working on improving nap 1 though, if it is short you'll need to do what you can to try to help her sleep more in the afternoon to avoid OT.
It's not unusual for some LO to have longer than 4hr A at this age so don't be too scared about the increases.
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So far I am at 3.45 A time for 1st nap and 4 hours A time for nap 2 and they have both been an hour at least (not at 1.5 hours yet). The 2nd nap is now finishing later and BT has moved to about 6.50/6.55(about 3.20/3.25 A time) but she has only been doing 10.5 hour nights now for the last 5 nights since this and waking between 5 and 5.30. I'm just not sure what is going on or what to do now. The first nap is about 1.15-1.20 but she's waking crying and not happy at all - is that UT? I've only done 2 days of 3.45 A time for 1st nap which has got the longer nap but with an unhappy waking.
I should have said as well that I was trying to do a UT nap for pm one and putting down at about 3.45 A time but she's recently learnt to crawl and pull herself up so she spends 30 mins doing that until about 4 hours A time when she then conks out but it gets to about 3.30pm and I'm having to wake her in the hope of getting her to bed at about 6.30 but that's not working either.
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The first nap is about 1.15-1.20 but she's waking crying and not happy at all - is that UT? I've only done 2 days of 3.45 A time for 1st nap which has got the longer nap but with an unhappy waking.
This could be UT, yes. Try another 10-15 mins and see if it helps.
If the first nap is good you'll need to reduce nap 2 if you want to keep BT the same.
Try giving lots of opportunity to crawl and pull up during A so she is less likely to try it at nap time. Otherwise start the WD earlier so she can do 30 min exercise before going to sleep.
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Hello so lo is 11 months next week. We had a lot of teething issues going on which caused bad naps and early wakings of about 4.20. We seem to have gone back on track but we've lost our way a bit on A times now. She's currently waking between 6.30-6.45 (yay!). I've been trying A times of between 4 hours and 4.15 for this first nap but I get either 35 min naps and wakes up crying but will go back to sleep after about 20 mins for 35-40 mins or she does an hour or 1.10 and wakes crying and may go back to sleep for a bit more. She's basically doing about 1.5 hours but it's broken. Would you say this is UT and should I increase A time more? Today she's done an hour nap on 4.15 A time and woke crying and after I settled her back down she's just playing in her cot now.
The pm nap has become a battle and I'm having to wake her after 20-30 mins as she's not going down until 4ish (she tends to want 3.55-4 hours A time here) so that she will go to bed by 7. I guess this is the 2:1 transition. I'm reluctant to cut her 1st nap short in the hope she does a pm nap because in the past her pm nap has not been very good where as she is a lot better with her am nap. It's just figuring out the A time and it seems like she could poss want 4.5 hours but it just seems such a big difference from what she used to do. She's sleeping 7pm-6.30/6.45 so a good night too. Thank you (as always!) and I hope your house move went well!
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Hi as your LO is another month older now perhaps you'd like to start a new thread with the age and issue in the subject.