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SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: Matt'sMom on June 19, 2018, 08:12:40 am

Title: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on June 19, 2018, 08:12:40 am
hi
I am a first time mom. DS is 12 weeks today, feeling like an absolute failure as a mother :'(
Ever since DS was 6weeks old. I have mistaken that his tired cries as hunger cries. Thus,he was basically breast fed to sleep and most of the time asleep in my arms or on me. As far as i can remember he has never taken naps longer than 30 minutes except when DH put him in the sling/wrap and carry him.
(has he got use to sleeping on DH or me, another AP?)
We started EASY when he was 9 week-old , and his nap remained at 30 mins.

I met a mommy in the breastfeeding group and she shared EASY routine with me. I must admit I did not have full knowledge of EASY and was shush patting DS at my shoulder until he fall asleep during the 4s wind down routine. I realise this was wrong when i found this forum. I have introduced yet another AP prop to DS!!!!

Last few days I managed to successfully shush pat DS to sleep in his cot, he nap for 30 mins again and when I tried to extend it by shush patting he was so agitated and would not let me do it.
I am completely heartbroken to see him so tired and unable to sleep.

he takes 4 30 min naps every day, my days are now just filled with me getting him on this routine and trying to extend his short naps without much success

my question:

1) His nap is so short, i often struggle to keep to the routine of 3 hours unless I successfully extend his nap, what should I do here?
how do I extend his nap if he gets agitated and not let me shush pat him back to sleep in when he wakes from his 30 min nap. I have no success on this
2)Would it be wise for me if I perhaps put DS to have 1 nap using the sling/wrap to help him sleep longer. will that affect his sleep train. ( I would hate for him to get another AP prop) ultimately i hope eventually he can sleep independently. but i also worry about all these 30 min naps and him getting insufficient sleep
3)Since starting on EASY routine, I have basically not brought him down to the living room and kept him in our room to avoid further stimulation but now i am beginning to wonder whether I should have ( he sleeps in his own cot but its attached to our bed.) what is your opinion about that

here is a sample of his EASY routine , but most of it has been all over the place

WU/E 7:30
A
S 9:09 - 9:45

E 10:30 (crying and decide to df)
A
S 12:04 -12:35
S 13:20 -14:00 ( extend success)

E 14:10
A
S 15:25 -15:50

E 16:30
A
S Unable to put down for nap, DS fights to sleep

E 17:10
A
S 18:10 -18:32

A 18:40 BT routine bath w DH
E 19:30
S 20:24

E 1:25
E 5:00

Please help me
Matt's mom

Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on June 21, 2018, 10:06:19 am
Hello and welcome to BW forums.

Sorry to see you didn't get a reply yet, we do try to ensure all threads receive a reply within 24 hrs but it is not always possible.

Please please please stop feeling like a failure as a mother.  You are NOT a failure.  You have done everything you possibly could for your little baby.
Please do not feel that you have done everything wrong, or anything!  Babies need holding and babies need feeding these are not the wrong things to do for your LO, you have shown your LO lots of love and support and care, and that is what a GOOD mummy does. Please let go of the guilt.

Breast feeding on demand is the best start for your baby.  Yes some habits can form if you feed to sleep but this can be weaned, don't worry.  The benefits of BF in terms of getting the best food and the best comfort and bonding opportunity is worth any kind of AP or habit that has happened.  Don't worry.

Shush/pat for new borns is generally started in arms and continued until LO is asleep in the early days (then they are put in the cot) - this is what you have done and it is totally fine. Again don't worry.  The bonding gained by holding and soothing your baby is priceless, you have done him good, not harm.  Sure you might be exhausting yourself and it might not be sustainable long term (holding a new born for sleep is quite easy compared to holding a toddler for sleep when they are super heavy and you start to get a bad back, bad wrist etc), that's the idea behind the EASY routine and methods of sleep training, to aim for a respectful and sustainable method of soothing and helping your baby to sleep whilst also taking care of yourself.  But you must never feel you did the wrong thing by holding and comforting your baby.  Cuddles are never a bad thing :)
Many people do not find BW until their LO is much older and whatever age your LO is we can support you and help you to work towards a suitable routine and sleep training methods.
The only thing we don't agree with here is leaving a baby to cry alone, no controlled crying, no crying it out.

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions.
Last few days I managed to successfully shush pat DS to sleep in his cot,
This is great :)  Doing the WD (wind down, the 4s) is fine in arms but getting him to actually nod off in the cot is wonderful progress. It is always okay to lift him back up if he is too agitated or unsettled, shush/pat in arms and again lay him down when calm. Each baby is an individual so there is no timing restriction on this process, you do what is needed, and put down when suitable.  For instance I learned with my LO that he needed to be in his cot before the "seven mile stare" because otherwise his view point changed and he would have to start all over again with the process of falling to sleep staring at a new spot, also when he woke mid nap he needed his seven mile stare to have the same spot to stare at.  We had previously been winding down sitting and actually this had caused his seven mile stare spot to be a plant behind me in the corner of the room (strong tonal contrast between the light wall and the dark plant) so when I moved him to the cot he didn't like it - getting him in the cot first really helped once he found his new spot and got used to it.

You might find that if you continue to shush/pat beyond the 30 mins your LO will learn to stay asleep longer.  Shush/pat is advised to continue for 20 mins after sleep to help LO get to the deep sleep stage, if though your LO is waking at 30 mins I would go beyond that time to help him.  It might be possible for you to shush/pat to sleep, leave for 10 mins to get yourself a super fast cuppa, and go back in to see him through the 30 min mark.  Shush/pat for as long as needed, pick up if necessary and continue in arms to calm him.

His nap is so short, i often struggle to keep to the routine of 3 hours unless I successfully extend his nap, what should I do here?
If LOs do not sleep the full nap they might be hungry earlier than the 3hr E time. In this case feed earlier, it's fine.  There is no requirement to feed after every wake up though so if you tried for a nap and it was short you don't automatically need to feed if it's only been 2hr and he is not hungry.

how do I extend his nap if he gets agitated and not let me shush pat him back to sleep
The description I gave above about starting shush/pat before he wakes is called W2S (wake to sleep) here is a FAQ
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Look at naps option 1.  You always adapt to suit your LO.
This method is really helpful because you begin soothing before he fully wakes so there is great chance of success.
If he does fully wake and you try to resettle I would suggest not continuing for more than 40 mins, if he is on the verge of sleep then maybe more than 40 mins but if he is kick up a big fuss then perhaps less than 40 mins.  If you are starting to feel frustrated give up on that nap and get on with your A time - it isn't worth the upset.

Would it be wise for me if I perhaps put DS to have 1 nap using the sling/wrap to help him sleep longer. will that affect his sleep train. ( I would hate for him to get another AP prop) ultimately i hope eventually he can sleep independently.
Lots of people work on one nap at a time.  If you would like to do this it is fine. LOs tend to form habits so I would suggest if you chose one nap for the cot do that same nap every day in the cot for consistency. If you choose one (or more) naps in the sling or pram then do the same ones each day.  This way you are likely to form the cot habit more easily rather than switching it about every day.
Whilst it might take longer overall doing one nap per day it is easier on parents and helps to keep LO better rested.  Don't worry about it.  Once one nap is in place in the cot you can choose another to work on.  You might also decide you want to keep a nap or two outside the cot, this can make it much easier to attend BF groups or other baby groups. Again, if it's possible try to go out the same time each day.  it's actually very handy to have a LO who can sleep in the sling or pram, mine wouldn't (independent sleeper in his cot) and it did cause me some struggles which I had to deal with.

Since starting on EASY routine, I have basically not brought him down to the living room and kept him in our room to avoid further stimulation but now i am beginning to wonder whether I should have ( he sleeps in his own cot but its attached to our bed.) what is your opinion about that
It sounds to me like this is probably not particularly good for your own sanity.
I know you care about your LO and are worried about the amount of sleep he is getting but you must also take care of yourself.  Sitting in one room, frequently a darkened room, shush/patting the day away is not good for anyone's mood.  Your LO will also learn the difference between "day" and "night" or "nap" by where you are in the house too.  When it is Activity time, go and do something in a nicely lit room with the sun coming in, or get outside.  Go to a baby group or for a walk, get some fresh air and sun.
As said before you can choose one nap to work on and dedicate that part of the day to really focusing on the sleep training. Then get out somewhere.

Your EASY.
Looking at your times I would suggest you try to start your wind down a bit earlier and aim to have LO asleep by 1hr 20 or 1hr 30 since he woke from his night sleep or previous nap.  Your first A time is a touch long for his age, it is impossible to get it spot on because you are shush/patting and hoping for him to nod off, I know, but if you start a bit earlier you might get him to sleep by 1hr 20 and this may help his nap length.

After the first nap I suggest you time the A time, we look for sleep cues but watching the clock can also be helpful. A time is all the time from when he wakes to when he sleeps, it including any time spent when he was awake and you were trying to resettle and any time you are doing wind down.  On your sample the A time between nap 1 and nap 2 is almost 2hr 20.  This is likely because you've been focusing on trying to get on the EASY routine and this is one way of sleep training by sticking to set times for a while, but it is quite hard too.  Instead note the time he wakes from nap 1, try to get him back to sleep but if he doesn't then use the wake up time as the start of the A and aim to get him back to sleep by 1hr 20 again.  This will help to avoid OT.  Some people even reduce the A time following a short nap, if he is looking very tired and giving signals you can put him down earlier, say 1hr.

he was basically breast fed to sleep
It doesn't look like you are still feeding to sleep. If you are we can look at ways to gradually wean this so that it moves from sleep time.

I hope this helps some. Sorry there is so much to read and wade through when you must be feeling so short of time and very tired.
Please feel welcome to ask further questions and to post updates on how you are getting on.
And please, no more guilt, you are a great mum and have been doing all you have through love and care :)
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 04, 2018, 14:36:03 pm
hi, thank you so very much for your reply. Am sorry for taking so long to reply. Things has been busy with family coming to visit us, unfortunately Matthew's nap remained at 30 min and some even less now.

Thank you for your comforting words, feeling guilty for teaching my son the wrong way to sleep constantly plus so heartbreaking to see him so tired and not sleeping well.

You are so right, I loved the bonding of carrying my son, cuddling him and also breast feeding him to sleep, but I know it is not sustainable and not helping him to sleep better. so i decide to change it

I want to list out our latest EASY and let you have a look to see where I went wrong. I started reducing his A time to 1.3 hour but his nap remained at 30mins, plus he was hardly sleepy, seems so alert at the time of WD, perhaps i need to do more, not sure where i went wrong.
Wind down for nap consist of closing the blind, singing one song, one prayer and now i start to sh pat him from cot.
Wind down for BT all the above except we have a bath and EBM in bottle for him first by DH

WU: 7:45  E:7:50  S: 9:15-9:45 (A time=1.30) I generally start sh/pat at 1 hour A time, perhaps its too early ?
A:9:45, E:10:30, S:11:20 - 11:40 (A time = 1.35) sh/pat start 10:55
DS tried to falls asleep again 11:40 - 12:00 but never went into deep sleep, only to the stage where eyes closed & open and irregular breathing then he awoke ( not sure what to make of this, perhaps he was too overtired?)
A:12:00, S: 13:15 - 13:35 ( A time =1.35)
E:13:40, S:15:15 - 15:45 (A time =1.40)
S: 16:10 - 16:30 ( nap extended by using pacifier when he wakes up)
E: 17:00, S:18:10 - 18:30 (A: 1.40) sh/pat started at 17:50
E:19:00 & BT bath
BT:20:10
NW/E : 00:30
NW/E: 4:40
EWU: 6:00 (resettled by DH using paci), WU 7:00
this was 2 days ago

today EASY is completely out, I do not know why

WU: 6:45, E:6:50, S: 8:50 -9:20 ( A time- 2.0), I started sh pat at 7:40 but DS was not sleepy or drowsy the whole time until i gave him paci at 8:30 or thereabouts

E:10:00 , S:11:20 - 11:45 ( A time - 2.0) again ! started sh pat around 1 hour mark
A: 11:50, S:13:00 - 13:33 ( A time - 1.15) paci given at the beginning of sh pat
E:13:45, S:15:05 -15:20 (A time -1.30) paci given at the beginning of sh pat
A: 15:20, S:16:20 - 16:45 (A time - 1.0) paci given at the beginning of sh pat - i start at 45-50 min mark
after that i tried to offer him another nap from 17:15 to 18:30 with paci help and he didn't sleep at all. I decided to do bed time routine and put him to bed

BT :19:45, but he woke up 30 mins later and I had to resettle. may i know why did he wake up at 30 min mark, did he think it was a nap? or was it over tiredness ?

as you can see because of his short nap, the EASY routine for the last cycle before bed time is either giving me a too long of A time that he can manage? what should I do, was i right to try to get him to nap at 17:15 again? also my EASY routine is always different everyday as he sometimes just nap shorter than 30 min.

I noted that sh pat on bed don't work for me all the time, like today for example he was completely distracted and not drowsy or sleepy at all i also tried putting him on the shoulder and it does not work too. do you have any tips as to where I went wrong or could use another method? DS does not like me patting him on the back it seems to irritate him even more. I had success with patting his thigh/butt area but today it did not work.
Should I consider PUPD?

Recently I realised that DS like to suck my shoulder when we do sh pat at the beginning and we started using pacifier. I wonder whether its the thing now that stops him from sleeping until I give him the paci for nap.
He sucks it vigorously and falls out all the time, needed to be re inserted. I am beginning to think its a bad prop. Should I stop giving him paci as we have only used it for 1 week. will it hinder him from learning independent sleeping? but it does soothe him.

I was also thinking what is the next step for me to encourage DS to sleep independently, any suggestions? feeling stuck since nap is just going from bad to worse

May I ask does his A time increase now that he is 3 months old? perhaps its more than 1.30 now? or should i still aim for 1.20.

Thanks for the support and reply, I feel comforted knowing I can get help. I now take him out of our room for A time, I certainly has benefited from that.  :)

Matt's mom

 


Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 04, 2018, 18:47:23 pm
Hi there
I'll try to get back tomorrow to read through and answer your questions. For now here is a link to A times:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
3 months is 1hr 20 - 1hr 30.
They are guidance only, some LOs do need longer or shorter but it's somewhere to start when putting a routine in place.

We can look at adapting the shush/pat but PUPD is not suitable for any Lo under 4 months and we usually suggest not until 6 months and that at any age it is a last resort method.  It can involve a great deal of crying and although LO is assured by your presence (therefore stress is low) they can lose calories which is why it's not suitable for young babies. During shush/pat you do pick up to calm LO and hold until fully calm then put down and this can be repeated if needed but it's not quite the same as the PUPD method. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 05, 2018, 09:07:06 am
Hi again.
I've had a chance now to read through your post properly.

I really do not see anything at all that you are doing "wrong".  I do see that your LO is not sleeping well in the day at all, some 15 and 20 min naps, 30 mins at best, not one single time he sleeps longer.   As you are doing a suitable wind down and trying various ways to sooth him and comfort him to sleep I do not see that there is anything you could or could be doing that you are not already.  The A time is fine, yes it goes long at times but this is not you it is LO not sleeping, we can't force them to sleep we can only offer the right setting and roughly the right time which is what you are doing.
I think you must be exhausted by all these naps as he isn't settling even once for you to get a small break.

Is there anywhere at all he sleeps longer?  In a sling, on DH chest, in the stroller, car, anywhere at all that LO actually sleeps for say 1hr or 1hr 30 or 2hr? (I do not mean night sleep because I see you get a long stretch or two at night which is good at least).
If you fed to sleep would he sleep longer?  If you held him on your shoulder throughout the entire nap would he sleep longer?
Does jiggling or bouncing help?  Rocking (either side ways in arms or back and forth in arms)? Walking?

Are there any health issues with LO?
Was he born full term? Any problems with delivery or after?
Any illness?
Does he have reflux or silent reflux?
Does he have plenty of wet nappies and is his poo okay?
Is he gaining weight as expected?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to look at the bigger picture to see what could be stopping him having a sleep.

For now, I'd like you to try an experiment to begin wind down at 1hr A time, I know it's short, let's just see what happens.

With pacifier use.  If a baby is or becomes reliant on it for sleep then the SIDS guidelines are to continue until 6 months.
Tracy Hogg's (BW) advice was to use a paci during the vigorous sucking then let it drop out and use other soothing methods to sleep or if it doesn't drop out then to remove when the sucking becomes gentle, not vigorous.  It is up to you if you use a paci or not and also up to you if you remove before sleep or keep re-plugging.  Re-plugging might mean a better nap, it can also mean you have to keep doing this for many months until LO learns to do it themselves.  SIDS guidance suggests it can reduce the risk of SIDS.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 06, 2018, 14:13:19 pm
hi Creations

thank you for your reply
Yes I am completely exhausted, ever since we started EASY at 9 weeks till now, he has never taken naps longer than 30mins using sh/ pat, granted I did manage to extend some of those naps for another 30mins. Thankfully DH has taken over night feeding with bottled EBM so I can get some rest.

I was thinking perhaps my WD is too short, every time when i sit down for WD, DS is still quite alert, he doesn't seem relaxed and ready for sleep. Either that or I have missed his sleeping/tired cues and was either too early or late. Now I generally just go by the clock if he don't show any sign or I missed it. I find if he started to fuss it is usually too late because he will cry badly before he finally goes to sleep. but i have yet to identify his cues, he yawns constantly

How do you help your LO to relax/ drowsy before going to WD or during WD?
I noted that he is very curious now and wants to be carried and walked around ever since I brought him out from his room to the living room downstairs. He usually start to kick his legs in excitement when i take him out of the room after a nap.

DS has taken 1 hour naps before, they were in sling/wrap carried by DH or me sometimes also 30min nap. Today, I resettled using sh pat on shoulder when he woke up from one of his nap of 20 mins and let him slept on my shoulder for the very first time to see how long will he sleep, he slept for around 1 hour and 10 minutes before got woken by DH portering about in our room. but i cannot see how I can do that for him in the long term. my shoulder hurts after he slept on it for over 1 hour.

I can only recalled once that he did slept for 1 hour in his cot for naps, this was when he turned 2 month old and had his immunisation that day, the late afternoon nap was 1 hour long +/-.

I did use to walk and rock him a little to coax him to sleep, but I have never kept any sleep log until I started EASY routine. So I cannot remember whether he slept longer or not. He certainly started sleeping little around 6-7 weeks.

Are there any health issues with LO?
Was he born full term? Any problems with delivery or after?
Any illness?
Does he have reflux or silent reflux?
Does he have plenty of wet nappies and is his poo okay?
Is he gaining weight as expected?

There are no health issues with DS
born on week 39 - by elective C sec
No illness
He used to spit up a bit of curd like milk when he was younger after feeding, this has now gotten less. It was really more like Happy Spitter, I never noted if he has any silent reflux symptom but he feeds well and hardly fuss at the breast or bottle. He does cough frequently during bottle feeding and hiccuping sometimes more than once a day ( which i put down to over tiredness)
( I will take a look at this and see whether he has any sign or symptom)
He now feed at 2.5 hour or 3 hour because a lot of the time his E clashes with S. ( before EASY he was fed on demand or 2 hourly)

He has plenty of wet nappies and he usually poo twice a day ( yellow seedy bf baby poo)
His latest check up and weighing showed that he put on 1kg since month2 and was told by Dr that his weight gain is in the normal range.

I will try for 1 hr A time and report back. It is certainly very short. I must admit I am losing steam with this routine, the only thing that keep me going is the hope that his nap length will improve when we eventually get it right. I remember DH asking me where is my Y time when we first started EASY. 

Thanks again
Matt's mom Suzie


Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 07, 2018, 07:13:08 am
Looking through all the information you've given I really do not think it is something you are doing wrong or that the routine is "wrong".  If it was the EASY routine that was causing a problem with sleep we would be able to look back at how he used to sleep and work from there to get some better naps in, but it looks like he never napped well, not even in arms.  Even the slightly better naps you describe before the routine seemed very rare, on DH in the sling or in your arms on your shoulder, but these are still not great naps.
I would also expect to see that at some point in the day he'd take a better nap even if that was with some help to resettle or even if he was in the cot and you kept a hand on him throughout the nap.
It seems to me that you've tried pretty much everything to get LO asleep and he still isn't sleeping...
...which makes me think more in terms of something bothering him, discomfort waking him up, perhaps silent reflux.

For now you could try one nap per day in the sling or in arms (on shoulder etc) to see if he can sleep a bit longer.
You could also try co-sleeping at nap time the way you do at night with you on the bed and LO on the co-sleeper cot and see if that helps him relax enough to nap better.
For naps in the cot it is fine if you need to keep a hand on him or shush/pat or a little rocking throughout the nap to keep him asleep, this is part of sleep training and can be reduced and weaned. The idea is to get a good nap by helping him and then we can look at moving towards more independent sleeping.

If you had any success with the 1hr A time it is okay to try that a couple of times. If it made no difference to his nap then you go back to the 1hr 20 - 30 you were on.  The 1hr was just an experiment to see what happened in case he had lots of OT or could relax better at a very short time.

Continue to bring him out of your room for his activity time.  Babies like to see what is going on and look around, hold things, shown things, be spoken and sung to etc, if the level of stimulation is too low (in a quiet dim room) he might not be ready to sleep well.  Your LO sounds like he is very interested in the world :)

I'm going to ask for another pair of eyes to come and have a look at your thread to see if I missed something too.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 07, 2018, 09:25:40 am
Hi creation

Thank you for replying so promptly
I have tried 1 hr A times for a couple of naps. DS really fights it ( lately it seems most of the naps involves some crying before he goes to sleep)
One occasion I brought him to the room and when I sat down for WD he started crying and continued until I stand up and walk around. And just to be sure I did the sitting and standing up 3 more times after that. For that nap he eventually slept at A time 2 hour for 20 min clearly upset I brought him up early.

Today I tried again and he was fine with the WD but started crying as soon as I swaddle him. 1st nap of the.day use to be the easiest to put him to sleep but I even struggle with that now. Today morning nap he slept at A time 1h 40m for 20 mins after hard cry I started WD at 1 hour mark

Shush pat on shoulder use to work like a charm until I try to up it and put him down and shush pat at bed. Now it does not seem to soothe him any longer. But it could possibly because he has turn 3 months now. On some occasion shush pat on shoulder still works . He cries as soon as I put him down in bed for shush pat now or play around for a while and start to fuss.

Do you think he has severe over tiredness and finding it hard to settle for nap ? Sometimes he gets really hyper around 1hr 40-50 min Mark if he don't sleep
His night sleep remains the same
BT around 7/8
NW/E 1/2 am
NW/E 4/5 am
Wake up early 6 ,sometimes able to be resettle sometimes not
I usually start the day around 7 for him
BT he usually goes down fairly easily perhaps because he had bath and bottle and would let me shush pat him in bed

I will try one nap with sling or in my arms, or swing and see .
He always nap in the co sleeper cot with me lying next to him as his nap is so short I sometimes tried to wake2sleep or hold his leg for him. There have been times where I was exhausted so I took a nap while he was napping too.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 07, 2018, 18:21:34 pm
OK, don't continue with the 1hr A time then. It was just that his naps were SO short I wondered if he was very OT so it was an experiment.

Another option could be to try longer than normal A time although I can see in your EASY logs that you've already done this - which means I'm a bit lost.

Another experiment could be to try a bath before nap time.  Perhaps inconvenient in the long run but it may be worth seeing if the bath helps to relax him. You could try once perhaps?  What do you think?

If you are able to shush/pat in arms, on your shoulder for him to relax or nod off, you can continue to do this, then with each nap when he is really relaxed bring him slowly into a horizontal position whilst still shush/patting in arms. If you can get him to sleep on you  horizontally this would be a step towards sleep training but if it always turns out to be only 15-30 min sleep no matter where you are then perhaps a trip to the doc to ask about a check up or check for reflux to see why he doesn't sleep in the day.

Hopefully someone else will be able to stop by and have a look at your thread too, in case there is something I'm not thinking of.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 07, 2018, 22:57:46 pm
Can I ask a silly question? In order to aim for 1h 20 m A time, how much earlier should I start wind down? Would it be at around 1 hr A time if Tracy said it takes 20 mins to go through the sleep stages? How is that different from starting wind down at 1 hr the way you suggested?


Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 08, 2018, 08:14:03 am
The A time is any time awake, from eyes open and awake to eyes shut and asleep. It includes all feeding, nappy change, play, and wind down.
When there are difficulties getting LO to sleep it is pretty impossible to time it perfectly so that the wind down is complete and LO sleeps at the time you plan, but when a routine settles down it is much much easier to know when to start the wind down to get LO asleep for the planned time.
If your LO takes 20 mins to wind down (as Tracy said, and in the early days with my LO I could see the stages, the seven miles stare, the eyes nodding etc and he was asleep at exactly 20 mins, I was amazed) then you need to start 20 min before the planned S time.  With a 1hr A you'd need to start at 40 min, it is very short I know, barely enough time for anything.  With a 1hr 20 A time you'd start WD at 1hr aiming for LO to sleep at 1hr 20.

Now, just to throw a spanner in the works some LOs do not like a long WD and some need longer.  Spirited LOs I hear need longer..  My own DS eventually hated a long WD.  He like to be up and about and active for almost his entire A time and then have a quick nappy change, song, and into bed. The WD was basically one song, so approx 3 mins. If he didn't appear ready to go down I repeated the song until he indicated he wanted his bed, other times he put his hand on my mouth to shut me up before the song was over and would pull back in my arms indicating to put him down.  We had a developmental phase of short napping so at 3.5/4 months I tried a new WD, long the full 20 mins, he kicked up a huge fuss.  I suspect (with hindsight) he really wanted a longer A time not a longer WD.

To be honest I am not seeing anything in your information which suggests your LO is clearly UT or OT or wants a shorter or longer WD or that it is props which he relies on for sleep.  If I could see any of those things I could support you a little better than I am.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 08, 2018, 12:27:57 pm
Hi Creation

I think I got the A time idea wrong for starting wind down  ;D instead of starting WD at 40min I started at 1hr mark
But that's ok I will try again tomorrow and see what is the outcome. I think DS is tired because he would cry after waking up from most of the short nap.
Am still getting to know DS, today I tried rocking him till drowsy and put him to the bed for one nap and it worked, but the next nap it didn't. He just wanted to lie on my shoulder and slowly doze off without me moving ( I saw his eyes closing and put him on the bed, he drifted off to sleep himself. I have no idea what works and what don't. Will Keep trying! DS is on the spirited side I think. I will note longer WD for him and see.
I will discuss with DH about a dr visit. My previous paed does not think DS has severe reflux that required medication.

I was thinking of putting DS in a hammock sling for his naps and at night he will still sleep in his cot. I wonder if anyone has experience of that.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: babiiprycess on July 08, 2018, 18:58:49 pm
Hi Mattís Mom! I definitely feel your pain! My LO just turned 12 weeks but he went through weeks of short naps and it drove me crazy! I felt like I was always in his room resettling him and he took so many naps through the day that I couldnít do much. It started to get better last week, he finally took longer naps but unfortunately weíre back to square one with short naps :( Its hard not to blame yourself but donít! Hang in there, I think it helps to here that there are other moms out there who are going through something similar :)
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 09, 2018, 10:34:02 am
Thanks for paying it forward and showing your support babiiprycess :)

Matt'smom, the 1hr A time really is just an experiment.
It's great you managed to get him down for a nap - but was this again a very short nap?

My previous paed does not think DS has severe reflux that required medication.
Just from my own experience and from reading threads over the years it cn be the case that a doctor doesn't think reflux is bad enough for medication until you have taken LO several times.  My DS had silent reflux and every time he saw a health visitor or GP they said he was a happy spitter because he would politely smile at them, they didn't see the screaming and problems with sleep. I eventually demanded a referral to the paed at the hospital who diagnosed DS with minutes of entering her office and put him on medication.  The change was clear.
When he was older he needed a medication increase but again I was up against it with our regular doctors who said he was on maximum dose.  With support on the BW forums I was encouraged to follow it up further and again the paedi at the hospital confirmed he needed an increase, he was taking roughly a quarter what he needed so his reflux was not under control.
This is not a dig on doctors, but sometimes it isn't clear to them just how bad the situation is unless you make it very clear.

I was thinking of putting DS in a hammock sling for his naps and at night he will still sleep in his cot. I wonder if anyone has experience of that.
Not sure what you mean by hammock sling.  Many people choose to nap LO in a sling though.  Just make sure you have a safety approved one and LO is in a good position, can breath etc.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 09, 2018, 14:49:57 pm
Hi Mattís Mom! I definitely feel your pain! My LO just turned 12 weeks but he went through weeks of short naps and it drove me crazy! I felt like I was always in his room resettling him and he took so many naps through the day that I couldnít do much. It started to get better last week, he finally took longer naps but unfortunately weíre back to square one with short naps :( Its hard not to blame yourself but donít! Hang in there, I think it helps to here that there are other moms out there who are going through something similar :)

Hi babyprycess,thank you for dropping a message, am so grateful. It does help to know that there are other moms out there going through this. I think being a first time mom and going from a full time professional to a stay at home mom it's been tough on me. I try my best for my darling son everyday. It's just about naps everyday!! .
Hope naps improve for you and your LO. At the very least he has show you he can nap for more than an hour!! Am still waiting for my lo to do a long nap for me.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 09, 2018, 15:21:17 pm
hi Creation


Matt'smom, the 1hr A time really is just an experiment.
It's great you managed to get him down for a nap - but was this again a very short nap?

unfortunately yes it is still the same 30min nap

I will try to see another doctor and let him take a look. I don't fully know what is silent reflux got to read up on the internet. How did silent reflux affect your DS ? was he doing short naps too?
I read in Tracy book BWSAYP, she mentioned that some babies around 8 to 16 weeks might start taking 20 - 40 power naps , I wonder is that developmental issue?


This is what I meant. see attached photo
I read that it is a bit like a swing and will involve rocking LO to sleep. I think putting him to sleep in his cot 4-5 times daily for naps is really exhausting not taking into account of resettling.
I wonder would it affect his night sleep in cot if I do so. plus will it be difficult to wean from this swing for naps when he is older. 

Thank you so much for the support.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 09, 2018, 15:25:21 pm
Sorry, it seems i do not know how to use the insert quote  ??? ;D ...

my reply is in the blue box
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: babiiprycess on July 09, 2018, 16:07:59 pm
I totally understand! Iím a first mom too! It will get better :) I have to tell myself this everyday and also keep in mind this is temporary heís going to grow up so fast! I might actually use some of the techniques creations mentioned!

Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 09, 2018, 18:05:20 pm
Ah an Amby hammock, fabulous!  My DS used his from birth to 9 months. Love it.  At around 9-10 months he turned in it and I knew it that was the endof the hammock for him, dangerous after they turn.
They are great, make sure the head end is high enough to give him an incline, it will help with reflux if this is one of the problems (although honestly I am starting to think your LO has silent reflux and would be worth a meds trial to see if it helps but I am not a medical professional).
I sleep trained in the amby at night and until 10wks in a motion-free travel cot in the family room for day naps but at 10 wks my DS had ideas of his own and refused to sleep in the travel cot so from then all naps and nights were in the hammock.
I found if I sat close I could put a firm hand on DS and give the hammock a small bounce up down, almost a vibration.  We used this instead of shush/pat.  The patting bothered him (it can be uncomfortable with reflux).  You can wean the amount of bouncing/swinging so that it is tiny then motionless, and when baby kicks they bounce themselves so it's not a prop. Follow the safety rules of course, very important.
Honestly when I had to do the move at 9-10 months I had a horrible 3 days. His cot was in a different room so his entire sleep environment changed. He refused the hammock and the cot and I pretty much stayed up all of night 1 to be by his side at the cot.  After 3 days though he was sleeping happily and independently again.  It felt like a looooong time getting through the 3 days but when you think about it 3 days is nothing.

On this link to the CRC board there are two threads (sticky) at the top on reflux.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0
Silent reflux is basically reflux but less obvious, there is rarely or never any actual spitting up or it happens but smaller amounts which might be long after eating.  Lots of the other symptoms are the same though.  Any LO in pain will find it hard to sleep properly - and as you know I am otherwise stumped as to why your LO never sleeps longer than 10 - 30 mins.
My DS didn't get medication until almost 6 months old, they "say" they grow out of it at 6 months...well mine didn't (and lots don't). He needed medication until 2yo.  Since then we have flare ups and a couple of times a year need meds again for a few weeks then we find we can stop. He is 7yo now and I feel that each year he needs less medication, he probably hasn't had any in a year or so.
No one wants their child on medication, but there are other aspects to consider as well as the lack of sleep.

How is your LOs eating?

i do not know how to use the insert quote
click and drag across the text you want to quote to highlight the section and then hit the "quote" button and you'll just get the bit you want in your post. Then you can go back and select another bit to quote again if you like :)
You'll get the hang of it.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 10, 2018, 15:22:29 pm
Hi Creations
The baby hammock i have is not exactly Amby but something similar, I will try your method and see if it works with DS

Re Silent reflux, I had a quick read, for the moment I can only see DS show symptoms of following
1) coughing / choked during bottle feeding
2) hiccuping - this is quite frequent, especially around 1 hr after E and nearly time for nap!
3) he does arch his back after bf with me - have been doing this since young, I always thought that was because he is over tired. but he does not do this when DH bottle feed him.
4) he has excess saliva now, so i hear swallowing but not sure if he is swallowing his saliva or acid reflux.

DH does not think DS has all of silent reflux symptoms  >:(.
may i ask does LO have to be crying and whinny all the time for it to be reflux? DS is a fairly happy baby with exception of difficulties and crying during sleep time. We don't have long crying or crying after feeding. He doesn't seem to cry in discomfort or pain after feeding or even after 1 hour of feeding. and no problem with night feeds as well. He would happily sit in the rocker chair and look around during his A time and when bored fusses a bit,  I will generally lift him up and walk around carrying him or just turn his rocker to another side.

How is your LOs eating?

DS is EBF, so when he latch I don't have idea of how much he drank, he usually bf around 20-30mins (both side) if I can get him at proper hungry,
currently on 3 hr EASY but actually mostly feed at 2.5hr because his E always clashes with S due to short naps
Lately he has been quite distracted when feeding, bob on and off the breast and look up and down, comes back have a few sucks and then started talking to me. I think the 2.5hr feeding might be the reason. he might not be very hungry. he feeds about 10-15mins.  What should I do here?

I sometimes BF him at 2 hour mark before he goes to bath for BT
BT- he also gets a bottle of 5oz EBM, fed after bath by DH. sometimes he could finish the bottle sometimes not depending on how long he latched with me before bath. I think his A time to bedtime is always too long for him to manage. He just want to get to bed. something I cannot do about as his nap is so short.

for night feed he wakes up twice , DH bottle feed him 5oz of EBM each time

He hardly fusses or cry during feeding. and we always burp him. DH is better at this then me. I just burp him quickly or until i hear a burp. Sometimes I will hear a wet burp and then I will hear him swallowing. sometimes it turns into a hiccup. This was more frequent during his early weeks now less.

so all in all I don't know what to make of it about possibly DS having silent reflux, what do you think from what I have described?

May I ask you about sleep associations, do you think DS has this? at what age does LO start to develop sleep association? I read somewhere that if LO is doing short nap that is because they have sleep association, in my case I am thinking nurse to sleep. The reason I think this is because last couple days I have been working at getting DS to lie horizontally on my arms while I sh pat him moving from my shoulder. I noticed that he started rooting for my breast and wanting to suck it when he in my arms while crying or could it just be his need to suckle for soothing to sleep? We stopped using the paci since the beginning of this week. If its the latter we might just go back and let him use it.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 10, 2018, 18:47:42 pm
may i ask does LO have to be crying and whinny all the time for it to be reflux?
No not all the time. Mine was always very happy when I took him to the doctor!
There were particular times mine cried, more so when the reflux got worse, sleep time was the worst and screaming back arching at the worst nights. Mine was an independent sleeper from early on so I knew it wasn't related to a prop or inability to self sooth although don't forget it still took me 5-6 months before I got him diagnosed (he saw several GPS and HVs).
To me it sounds like plenty of symptoms for silent reflux, I already suspected reflux from the sleep pattern so any additional symptom feels like additional reason to investigate further with a paediatrician. Perhaps ask for a meds trial? If it isn't reflux the meds won't help, if it is reflux you'll see improvement on the meds after a time for the meds to start working.

I read somewhere that if LO is doing short nap that is because they have sleep association, in my case I am thinking nurse to sleep.
If it was only a feed to sleep prop it would be easy to tell the prop was there (you'd be doing it andhe'd be sleeping and for a lot longer than 30 min!) and relatively easy to wean it to. I don't feel this is a prop issue.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: *Ali* on July 15, 2018, 22:13:14 pm
Babies should be fed on demand so if he is rooting at nap time then I'd feed him.

Have you tried lying tummy to tummy with him on your bed and feeding him to sleep then either staying with him or sneaking away? At this age that was about the only way my youngest would nap for any length of time.

It does sound like you are spending a lot of time focussing on getting him go sleep. That must be mindnumbingly frustrating  What if you just go out with him for the day in the buggy? Just feed when he fusses and let him fall asleep whenever he wants without worrying about whether it's nap time or feeding time? Or just snuggle up on the sofa at home and watch a boxset while you snuggle and feed and let him sleep when he wants. It might help you see his natural patterns rather than being so focussed on exact A times.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on July 17, 2018, 09:35:32 am
Hi Ali, I stop feeding on demand since starting EASY.
Yes I used to nurse him to sleep when he was younger after 4weeks but his nap length was only at 30min and that was why I started EASY hoping it will help
Thank you for the suggestion of looking at his natural rhythm pattern instead of following the clock. I think I might give that a try. It has been a long time since I just let him be without coaxing him to nap   ;D
I am so preoccupied with worry of introducing bad habits and avoiding nurse to sleep so it's not a prop that I generally don't let him fall asleep when feeding. I thought he is at age now where bad habits forms quickly, I don't want him to rely on nursing to sleep.

But lately he has taken naps on the sling and on me even though naps still remained short.

Your suggestion has helped me rethink this.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on July 17, 2018, 18:16:18 pm
Try not to worry about "bad habits".  Anything can be weaned if/when you need to.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: *Ali* on July 18, 2018, 09:17:58 am
Please relax and enjoy your baby. Even Tracy who devised the EASY routine said it's only a problem if it's a problem. Lots of us, including me with my first, only started EASY when baby was older having fed or held to sleep previously. If that works better for you (and your sanity!) then no harm in doing that for now. If the time comes that you need to change things then you can take another look.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 04, 2018, 14:09:00 pm
Hi Ali & Creations

DS is now 18 weeks, how time just flew by  :D

We are still waiting to see a specialist consultant for his suspected silent reflux

I took things a lot easier with naps now and it has helped a lot. Thank you so much to both of you for your advise. Lately its easier to put him for naps. I noted that starting this last week his A time has increase to 1h45 - 1h55 sometimes even to 2h. I sometimes carry him in sling ( I find it easier so I can be out and about or be doing chores at home) and some naps in the crib and he seems to be ok with that. unfortunately his nap remains at 30min for the majority of the time, I have come to accept that & wait for him to extend it when he is ready.

For the naps in crib, I do our usual wind down with 4S, and put him in crib drowsy but awake ( sometimes very drowsy). and he would drift to sleep himself, I put my hand on him and jiggle it a bit to help if he has trouble sleeping. Lately he has extended a few of the nap himself ( he woke up at 30m mark and then took about 15-20min to go back to sleep again) some 1h 20m, some 50min, sometimes I would see him stir and try to go back to sleep but not successful.

However, bed time has now become harder. I would do the same as nap time but he was not able to drift off to sleep,he become wide awake every time I put him down.  After various times of me putting him down and picking him up on my shoulder again ( perhaps I shouldn't do that but am not able to shush pat him to sleep while he is wide awake in bed), I usually took longer than 1hour putting him to bed and always with shush pat on my shoulder then in my arms and already asleep transfer to bed. He would wake up at 30min into bedtime sleep and then 2 hours after that.

As he always has long stretches of night sleep, I would really like to preserve that. I wonder has that got to do with his A time increasing. I think he might be too tired at bed time and making it harder to falls asleep.

DS on 3hr EASY and because of short naps, I usually do a 5th nap so that it would not be too long stretch of awake time to bed time. It has worked well. Now that his A time has increased, it looked like there are no longer time for 5th nap or else BT would be late, but the stretch to BT is still fairly long from his 4th nap if you know what I mean

Am not sure should he be on 3.5/4hour EASY? but can he? if his naps are still very short. I now bf DS on demand as well it seems to have help with his spit up and reflux.
He has 4 naps now, bed time is usually quite early but he would wake up after 30 min into the sleep and i had to resettle. I don't know what is the right time to put him for bedtime anymore. I list 2 days of my EASY routine, hoping you guys can help me, or is it something that i just have to ride it out until his naps lengthens regularly?.

WU-6:37
E-7:56 ( didn't feed long, he was fed at 5:00am NW)
A-1h51m
S-8:29-9:04 (wd 1h30,pd1h44m)
E-9:26
A-1h35m
S-12:59-13:25 (WD1h20m I saw DS rubbing his eyes, PD 1h33m)
S-13:42 - 15:03 (he woke up at 26m and extended the nap on his own) Should I try WD at 1h20m for all naps to see if possible that his A time is still really actually be around 1h35m
E-15:15
A-2h9m
S- 17:13-17:42
A:3h
BT/S: 21:00 ( I started WD at 1h20m, and was shooting for 1h45m BT but couldn't put DS down and went through various Putting down and picking up again as he become wide awake as soon as I put him down but was drowsy at my shoulder during WD, I also tried to let him have a go and falling asleep and thus the reason why his Awake time ended at 3h, perhaps not consistent enough but now I have a fear that it will take really long to settle him to sleep and I try to help him at earlier time

NW/E: 23:00
NW/E:3:09
WU:6:20


WU- 6:20
E- 7:00
A- 1h57m
S- 8:18 -8:48 (WD 1h30m,pd1h44)
E- 10:00
A- 2h17m
S- 11:03-11:33 (we were out and slept in car seat)
E-12:03
A-1h46m
S-13:19-13:48 (wd 1h35m,pd 1h44m)
E-14:01
A-1h47m
S- 15:35-16:05 (wd 1h35m,pd 1h45m)
E-16:20
A-1h55m
BT/S- 18:01
WU 18:36 resettle, back to sleep at 19:48
NW/E 22:35 resettle by feed 
NW/E 3:09 resettle by feed
WU 6:44
(sometimes he wakes at 5:00am but on this two days he has not)


Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 05, 2018, 20:56:21 pm
Please help! Last night BT was 1830, DS woke up after 30min after sleeping, and then at 20:30( 1.5 hour and he didn't settle until 1 hour later then woke up again at 23:30 And then at 3:09 ( this one he just start cooing and talking and without crying) am so worried! He only went back to sleep 4:55am. we fed him that didn't work, same happened yesterday for 3 am wake up.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on August 06, 2018, 08:04:37 am
Hi there
Sorry I haven't been around much recently due to a house move.

I'm so sorry to hear things were bad for you over night. Exhausting!

Honestly I cannot see a problem with your routine.  The A times vary a little (that first EASY I think you forgot to log a nap as you having waking at 9.04 and next nap 12.59 but I think you must have had another nap in there) but the A times are reasonable for age. You are feeding on demand, helping your LO and offering sling naps, car naps and all sorts.
The only thing I can think is that there is silent reflux which needs controlling to enable him to sleep better.
Can you get the appointment moved forward?
Have you asked the doctor for a medication trial to see if it helps?
I don't know how your medical system works there but I know in the UK sometimes we have to repeatedly ask to get something.  I was asking for help for my refluxer for quite some time before he got his medication and the meds worked so well I hated that he had been left waiting.

All you can really do at night is comfort and offer BF.  Honestly I don't think any routine change is going to fix your nights or naps at this point.
Sorry, I know this is really hard. I've had those awful nights too where absolutely nothing helps and all I could do was hold my DS whilst he screamed until he eventually passed out and got a little sleep. It's so horrible.

hugs
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 08, 2018, 13:51:14 pm
hi Creations

Congratulations on moving to new place

We are still waiting, I have been asking but that is earliest appointment available given to us. We went to see a general doctor, he of course don't think DS has reflux that needed medication

The last few days miracle happened, DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap , not sure how perhaps his short naps were developmental or me not putting him to sleep on the right time. I didn't do anything different and we have not started medications for reflux

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped. but the waking 30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes , not sure what is the reason to that. Maybe my bedtime is not right.

I hope he will continues to do long naps,
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on August 09, 2018, 08:43:59 am
DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap ,
Yay!! :)

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped.
Yay again!! :)

30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes
Just check the last A time is not too long for him.  TBH mine always woke in the early part of his sleep and even now at 7yo I hear him stir and make noise at least once in the evening.  If it's a relatively quick resettle or he can self settle I'd not worry about it.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 10, 2018, 13:16:44 pm
hi Creations

may I ask you about A times? should I be extending it to 2hour for DS ( DS is now 19weeks)

What happened was when I try with 2hr A time he slept 38min naps, so I panicked and the second day I reduced the A time, with 1h45m - 1h7m nap1, at 1h55m he slept 2hour nap2, at 1h56m -51m catnap
but the thing I noticed was when his A time are below 2hours, both of his NW/NF (1am & 5am) he was very awake and don't cry for milk like his usual self. plus after drinking 5oz of EBM it took me another while to settle him back to sleep. Rightly so today he is very tired from long wake at night. I read in the forum that perhaps its due to not extending the A time.

If I were to extend A time to 2hour, would you suggest I push it for the whole day or just one of the nap?

Thanks in advance. Hope the move to new home went smoothly.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: babiiprycess on August 10, 2018, 14:49:05 pm
hi Creations

Congratulations on moving to new place

We are still waiting, I have been asking but that is earliest appointment available given to us. We went to see a general doctor, he of course don't think DS has reflux that needed medication

The last few days miracle happened, DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap , not sure how perhaps his short naps were developmental or me not putting him to sleep on the right time. I didn't do anything different and we have not started medications for reflux

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped. but the waking 30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes , not sure what is the reason to that. Maybe my bedtime is not right.

I hope he will continues to do long naps,

Yay!! Iím glad the naps got longer!! Iím still struggling but it looks like thereís hope! My son is waking around 4:30/5 and chatting too, do you think that has to do with the short naps?
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on August 11, 2018, 09:03:57 am
may I ask you about A times? should I be extending it to 2hour for DS ( DS is now 19weeks)
Yes I think so although of course I am not there with your baby and you know him best.
The guidance time at 5 months is 2hr to 2hr 30 and as your LO is approaching 5 months I'd say increase to 2hr or even a bit more.  2hr is the 4 month A time.  Here's a link:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

The move was hard work but pretty smooth, thank you.
DS coped remarkably well despite having to be put to bed on the sofa night 1 as the removal firm hadn't brought in his bed and were still banging around until 11pm!  I was grateful for our sleep song and his lovey...he just listened to his song, snuggled his muslin and went off to sleep :)
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 27, 2018, 01:50:04 am
hi Creations

Congratulations on moving to new place

We are still waiting, I have been asking but that is earliest appointment available given to us. We went to see a general doctor, he of course don't think DS has reflux that needed medication

The last few days miracle happened, DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap , not sure how perhaps his short naps were developmental or me not putting him to sleep on the right time. I didn't do anything different and we have not started medications for reflux

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped. but the waking 30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes , not sure what is the reason to that. Maybe my bedtime is not right.

I hope he will continues to do long naps,

Yay!! Iím glad the naps got longer!! Iím still struggling but it looks like thereís hope! My son is waking around 4:30/5 and chatting too, do you think that has to do with the short naps?


hi Babiipryces

Am so sorry to reply so late, things been busy for us with in laws visiting and staying for 3 weeks

To be honest DS is still doing short naps a lot of the times, I think its got to do with me putting him to sleep at the wrong time, still not very good at looking at his tired cues. when i got the right A time, he takes 1h20m - 2 hr nap.
About your question on waking and chatting around 4:30/5, I followed Creation and forum mod advise to increase the A time, it stopped after that. Now if he wakes I get nervous in case he stays awake and continue to play, but he usually does not and goes back to sleep after feeding. he still wakes 2 times a night for feeding

I think DS (5 months) now is at A time around 2h15 -2h30m, am still trying to get the right time so that his naps does not end up short, when i get it wrong, he napped 30-38m only. :(  he gets sleepy at 2h for first nap and the few times I let him go to nap and he wakes after at 38m, so I don't anymore

Hope things are getting better for you  :)  I certainly find advise from Creation and Ali really helpful, I try not to stress about his naps. try my best to provide the best environment for him to sleep, DS job is to sleep, I cannot really force him.
taking a step back and relax helps me to see and notice his sleeping pattern or fuss. am still learning
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 27, 2018, 01:53:54 am
may I ask you about A times? should I be extending it to 2hour for DS ( DS is now 19weeks)
Yes I think so although of course I am not there with your baby and you know him best.
The guidance time at 5 months is 2hr to 2hr 30 and as your LO is approaching 5 months I'd say increase to 2hr or even a bit more.  2hr is the 4 month A time.  Here's a link:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

The move was hard work but pretty smooth, thank you.
DS coped remarkably well despite having to be put to bed on the sofa night 1 as the removal firm hadn't brought in his bed and were still banging around until 11pm!  I was grateful for our sleep song and his lovey...he just listened to his song, snuggled his muslin and went off to sleep :)

Thanks Creations for the A time advise, hopefully slowly but surely i get his right A time.
Its so incredible that your DS can settle well into a new place without any issue. I hope my DS will too as he grows and gets better at sleeping independently
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: babiiprycess on August 27, 2018, 02:59:55 am


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hi Babiipryces

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Hi! No worries, life can definitely get busy with our little ones. Unfortunately Iím back to work already so no choice but to take a step back. My mom is watching my son so the only times I can really observe him is the weekends which I am soaking up :) Long naps here and there are still pretty good! Did you keep his awake time at 2hrs until he was 5 months?
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on August 27, 2018, 09:21:12 am
Thanks Creations for the A time advise, hopefully slowly but surely i get his right A time.
Just be aware the A times increase quite rapidly at this age. At 6 months it will be more like 3hrs and the weeks seem to pass by very quickly, you'll be there before you know it!
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 28, 2018, 04:31:37 am



hi Babiipryces

[/quote]

Hi! No worries, life can definitely get busy with our little ones. Unfortunately Iím back to work already so no choice but to take a step back. My mom is watching my son so the only times I can really observe him is the weekends which I am soaking up :) Long naps here and there are still pretty good! Did you keep his awake time at 2hrs until he was 5 months?
[/quote]

hi,
No i did not.
DS just turn 5 months yesterday, last week his A time was around 2h20-2h30, sometimes lower some times higher
 e.g. yesterday his 1st nap at A time 2h30 he slept for 1hr25m,  but nap 2 i put him down for the same time and it give me a 30m nap, and 3rd nap same A time, woke up at 28m and went back to sleep for another 45 min not sure what to make of that

I think he was around 4 months when his A time was 2h, and i gradually increased it to 2h15 sometimes back again esp when i follow his cues for 1st nap in the morning which i think was wrong.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 28, 2018, 05:14:20 am
Thanks Creations for the A time advise, hopefully slowly but surely i get his right A time.
Just be aware the A times increase quite rapidly at this age. At 6 months it will be more like 3hrs and the weeks seem to pass by very quickly, you'll be there before you know it!

Thanks Creations,
will increase A time again in a week or 2
May I ask you about bedtime, I am struggling to get the correct A time before his bedtime.
yesterday we had ( all A time 2h30m for naps, A time to BT was 3h5m)
Nap1 -1hr25m
Nap2 - 28m
Nap3- 28-30m, then went back to sleep for another 45m on his own
I started BT wind down at 1h30m, DS didn't go to sleep at all, roll in the bed and then i try to help and pick him up and put down, after a long struggle he started crying around 2h30/40m A time, in the end could only go to bed at 3h, he was severely OT by then, we had 2 NW, and he woke up early at 550am when BT was nearly 9pm

Its funny because on the days when he does short naps all through out the day, i would know what to do, i put him to bed as early as 6pm, but when he has a longish nap or extra nap sleep, he is not as tired and I don't know for sure when is his BT. we always end up with a long wind down with me desperately trying to help him to sleep at nearly 3 hour A time. He usually is a able to drift off to sleep on his own when i get it right, when not I need to hold him until he is very drowsy.

is there a max number of hours for day sleep?, how long does a 5mo need to stay awake for day until he is tired enough for bed or is that just completely wrong?
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on August 30, 2018, 07:35:56 am
Hi there
Sorry for the delay.
I've hurt my back and unable to sit at the computer to respond properly.  Keep at it and I'll tyr to catch up when I am feeling better.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: Matt'sMom on August 30, 2018, 12:57:52 pm
hi Creations

will certainly  do!!
sorry to hear you have hurt your back, hope you get well soon. do take care
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: babiiprycess on September 06, 2018, 19:45:59 pm




hi,
No i did not.
DS just turn 5 months yesterday, last week his A time was around 2h20-2h30, sometimes lower some times higher
 e.g. yesterday his 1st nap at A time 2h30 he slept for 1hr25m,  but nap 2 i put him down for the same time and it give me a 30m nap, and 3rd nap same A time, woke up at 28m and went back to sleep for another 45 min not sure what to make of that

I think he was around 4 months when his A time was 2h, and i gradually increased it to 2h15 sometimes back again esp when i follow his cues for 1st nap in the morning which i think was wrong.

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Hi! Mine LO does the same! He was at 2hr awake times and he finally managed to sleep for 1.5hr in the morning but the rest of the naps are so unpredictable! Weíve pushed it to 2hr 15 mins and still the same. Heís turning 5 months next Thursday! Man time is flying. I saw your question about BT. Iíve noticed if my son sleeps 3.5-4hrs during the day he doesnít sleep as well at night, 3+wakes and tossing and turning. If he sleeps 3-3.5 then we get one or two wakes. On days he sleeps more I should probably put him down later but it never works since that means to long of a wake time.
Title: Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
Post by: creations on October 14, 2018, 07:29:02 am
Hi Matt'smom.
sorry it's been such a long time.
Hope things are going well for you.