BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: jessica and emilys mummy on July 18, 2005, 20:44:05 pm
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Hi.Emily is 18 months old.She is very clingy and has been since she was about 4 months old.The daytimes have been a nightmare anyway with screaming,clawing,pulling at me etc.Although with the help of my health visitor this is slowing down.About 2 weeks ago DD wouldn't go to sleep,have not had any problems with this before,but she keeps screaming and shaking the cot about 10-15 mins after we put her to bed.I tried the 1,2,3,4 minute etc thing.That didn't work,so I took her out for a cuddle and juice and she went straight to sleep.She now has worked her way through the night of staying awake and wanting cuddles,she screams as soon as she goes back to the cot.Last night she woke at 1am.By 4am I was at the end of my tether and had to leave her in the cot.She fell asleep at 4.45am.I've tried PU/PD as well.
She started teething at 3 months and most of them are through.She doesn't seem in any pain.Most paracetamols and ibruprofens make her hyper.
My other daughter Jessica is nearly 4 and is finding it hard.
Please anyone,can you help me.I'm so desperate now.
Thanks
Sarah
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Hi Sarah:
You mentioned that you tried several different things. Maybe she is just confused? Also, it is hard to think of it as manipulation, but if your daugther is healthy as you say, it sounds like she found a way to get what she wants, mom and cuddles. Doesn't sound so horrible, right? But, when it is interrupting sleep it is! My only idea is to add some extra cuddle time into her bedtime routine and then get back to putting her to bed on her own. How was she falling asleep before the trouble started? Did she just do her routine and then fall asleep on her own in the crib? My other idea is that perhaps the changes during the day are causing a temporary blip in her nights. Consistency is the only thing that will bring a routine pattern back.
HTH,
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Hi Sarah,
Have you ruled out anything medical? My ds just went through something similar to this and he ended up having an ear infection.
Post back and let me know, and if that is not the case then we can look at what her day is like, how she goes to bed, etc..
Carrie
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Thanks for the replies.Emily has always been clingy and has cried almost constantly from 4 months.About 2 months ago on holiday I stood on the edge of a cliff with her thinking it would be so easy.I didn't think WHAT would be so easy,just the sentence.After that I knew I needed help.The Health visitor is fab and helped me through.Because she was always so good at night I knew once she was in bed I could relax.
I don't know what started the night problems.I always have to cuddle her anyway so she gets lots of love before bed.I think maybe she is stringing me along with the cuddles.Checked with doctor yesterday.No problems there.
Have decided to persue PU/PD for as long as it takes now and I am taking a herbal supplement called Kalms,a Godsend.
ANy other tips may be good though.
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My other advice is to post every night so that you feel supported in what you are trying to do. The women here are great at giving support during transitions. I'm glad you were able to get help with her. What techniques is the health advisor helping you with? Is she helping her to learn a little independence from mommy? I'm glad she is healthy and it is always a great idea to have lo looked at by a doctor before starting a transition. I always do just to make sure that physically everything is fine and we just need to get back on track with the routine.
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Hi,I feel like a complete fraud now.Dd has all 4 molars coming through!!!!
Have just seen the red swollen gums.I promise they were not there yesterday.Thanks for all of your help.
In answer to the health visitor question,she told me to think of myself as a lion and dd as a lioncub.When I am upset or am trying to push her away or even try to run out of the room she feels threatened so she hangs on to me.We then go around in cirlcles and both cry.Now when I'm leaving the room for example I tell her where I'm going and if she jumps up to come with me I take her by the hand and bring her with me.Also if I'm in the kitchen then I now put her on the counter with me.It's getting better by the day.
I will keep asking for the support I need for the night time while these molars are coming through if no one minds.It's such a great site.
Thanks to all
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Well I am glad to hear you found out what was going on, although I know first hand that molars are not fun!
You could try some pain meds about 20 min. before bed to see if that helps. Hopefully once they are all through she'll bounce right back.
Carrie
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Molars are really hard! Dd is getting her last eye tooth now. I noticed that she is starting to tolerate the pain more :( , we usually only have one bad sleep night periodically with the teeth, but it makes her VERY challenging during the day. We just started swim class and she just whines and cries so much (and she LOVES the pool). I finally gave her some Motrin during the day (I try to only give it at night if she is having trouble) and she was like a different kid! Poor thing. I hope those teeth pop through quickly.
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Since I have realised it is the teeth keeping her awake I think I have chilled out a bit.For the last 2 nights she has gone to bed with a tiny drop of liquid paracetamol rubbed onto her gums and has been fine.
Again,thanks so much for the support.
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Hi
I think the molars may have been making her particularly down but have you thought you may have a separation anxiety problem here. If she's anxious of your whereabouts in the day and crying at night that's very similar to a stage that DS went through (although younger it can stricke any time they realise their independence).
Trouble is, the thinking of it a stantrums and controlled crying at night will make it worse. I was lucky ans saw one of Tracy's programs about it and realised I was doing all the wrong things.
During the day, when they are clinging on, they are basically saying they a scared of being alone in the big world. If you pick them up, you rescue them and therefore cinform their fears. You have to get down on the floor and reassure them. Then I found I had to have lots of DS height toys hidden around the place so I could then distract him.
At night, We had a plan of saying in with him for several nights then gradually moving away but going back when he was upset. Thus proving that I was always there for him, he just had to shout and gradually his confidence came back.
I've a friend who did controlled crying at about the same time as we were doing this and now she's got a terrible confidence problem on her hands so I just thought I'd share in case another perspective was helpful once you get past the molars.
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After I posted my last message dd woke up and stayed up last night.I think Jenny you are right.All she wants is me.When I picked her up last night she snuggled into my shoulder and stopped crying but when I went to put her back she started screaming again.I have tried to stay in the room and slowly back out.I did see the program when I had Jessica (4).Emily just screams so much when I'm in the room.I am going to go back to the 1 minute,2 minutes etc.But I will persist this time.
Also the days are getting better.I do tend to be on all fours most of the time.I also have a chalkboard easel in the lounge now and just hand dd chunky chalk when she gets clingy.
Thankyou Jenny I will let you know how I get on.
I MUST BE STRONG AND NOT GIVE IN !!!!!!!
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I have to say I wouldn't do the controlled crying thing. I know its what the HV's recommend. It was suggested to me when DS had this problem before and I couldn't see how leaving them longer and longer to cry would teach them anything but you have have to make an even bigger fuss to get them to come back.
It took us 10 days to get back on track with the blow up bed method which I didn't think was too bad.
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I think you're right.It worked great when Jessica was a baby.But with Emily it just didn't work before.I may try the air bed,but dd just wants to grab me as soon as she sees me.I will think about it again.Maybe will be strong enough to do tomorrow.Will let you know.
Sarah
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I'll help you come up with a plan if you like. You do feel better when you have a plan to get you where you want to be!
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Hi Jenny.Emily was up from 1.07am she had been sick,but was not ILL.I cleaned her up,changed sheets etc.Then it started.She would not go to sleep.I didn't put her straight back,obviously I thought she may be ill so sat with her not talking but she fell asleep on me.I tried to stay in the room but as soon as she was in the cot she screamed and screamed.At one point she did settle slightly and every few minutes she called Mum.I just shushed her and it went quiet.I counted up to five minutes and thought she was asleep and crept out,then she went ballistic.As it was 4.25am I had to get out otherwise I would have lost my mind and left her to it.She cried for 20 mins then slept until 8.15am.
Please please tell me what I can do.I really don't want to sleep in her room,but is that the only way
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Sarah,
I'm going to PM you because it might be long!
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Jenny,Thanks for the PM.
Emily went to bed slightly later than usual tonight,7 instead of 6.30pm.I then sat in the room for about an hour,she would not lay down even for a second.At one stage I laid down beside the cot and put my hand in,even after 25 minutes she was still screaming at me,standing.At 9pm I got so fed up that I tried the controlled crying.She finally fell asleep after 6 minutes.Possibly because she was too tired to stand up anymore.I have a feeling she will be up tonight as she went to Grannys today and didn't nap for as long.
Tomorrow night I'm going to start with the controlled crying to see what happens.
She wasn't even yawning tonoght so do you think she just wasn't tired?Do I keep her up longer or keep to her usual bedtime?Would like to hear your views.
Thanks for all your support.
Sarah
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Sarah, I agree with Jenny that it sounds a lot like Sep. Anx.
It would also be helpful to know what your daytime routine is like regarding naps, how many does she have, for how long, and are they always at the same time etc.
It is important to remember that BW methods are not designed to work in one day, children just aren't like that. When we made the mistake of treating Harveys teething problems with bottles through the night it took us 2 months to wean him back from the milk, consistency is key here, and sometimes you may need to give it weeks and not days.
With regards to the seperation anxiety, taking your lo with you every time will not solve the problem, what you need to do now is teach her that you are coming back. I'm not sure what you're doing at present, but when we were on the cusp of it, we told H each and every time we were leaving, where and why we were going, and how long we were going to be. I would for example say, Daddys is just going to the toilet, I'll be back in 1min, I'm just going into the kitchen, I'll be back in one minute, and I would stick to the one minute rule, after that, it's a 2 minute rule etc. This taught him that we were going to come back and he began to trust us.
I cannot advise you to go with the controlled crying method as not only do I believe that it is an undesirable method of sleep training, but in this case I think it is counter-productive, especially if you're trying to build trust with sep. anx.
Please keep us updated.
:)
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Hi there,
I have been reading your posts.......but too dog tired to respond :roll: .
My 2 cents:
* My 19 month old was a great sleeper until about 8 weeks ago when she fell ill and got used to my attention during the night. Since then, she has been waking every 3 hours or so for milk :roll: . I am only telling you this, not because I think it is OK, but to reassure you that nightwakings at this age are COMMON! (believe me I have done LOTS of straw polls on this and even in Tracy's new book she raises sudden night wakings at 18 months!).
* My 4 year old went through a similar phase at 18 months of sleeplessness; and your posts take me back (at least I can pacify my now 19 mo with a bottle; NOTHING worked for Laura back then). Anyhow, I slept on the floor in her room OFTEN. Not every night, but for 3-4 nights running. Trust me it worked a LOT better than control crying (which I also tried but in my opinion it only taught her that the longer and louder you yell, Mummy will come running!).
I have read loads of sleep books and I firmly believe that the first step is to get the start of the night right. ie routines and rituals and pu/pd. Have you read through Tracy's latest book which describes how to do this for toddlers? If not, I will post with more info. Then, if you are having issues like you are describing i would try pu/pd for about 30 minutes at night, then pull out a mattress lay down beside crib and shhhhh until you or lo falls asleep. You will at least get some rest. After a couple of nights of this, you could slowly move out, OR try sticking with pu/pd.
Not sure if anything is helpful, but please do know that your little one is acting like MANY of her age and truly it will pass (my 4 yo is such a wonderful little sleeper now)
Let us know what you decide.......
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Just wanted to add that with both my girls, a lovey helps so much. highly recommend introducing one!
Also adding that I feel bad responding given that I have my own sleep issues with Cate. I am confident that I know what to do, just have to muster the motivation. Have to say I am in a different place with her as if i give her a bottle it is straight off to dreamland, whereas with my older dd when she woke after midnight......that would often be IT for the night. :shock:
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Thanks for the extra input.Emily has recently changed her daytime routine from
7am wake up & breakfast
9.30am milk & bed
11.15am wake up and play
11.45am lunch & take big sister to nursery.Other activities or shopping,seeing friends with and without babies.
3pm collect dd from nursery
3.15pm bed
4.45 wake and dinner& play
5.45pm bath and pj's
6.15pm milk and cuddles
6.30pm bed
As you will remember from the earlier posts we haven't had sleep problems before.The changes in her daily routine are NO AM SLEEP AND NAP FROM 12.45PM -2.50PM.NO OTHER SLEEP.
The change in her daily routine only started about 1 week after all of the sleep problems.
I know that I must be patient and take as long as it takes to get her into bed,but when she has being crying all day,literally,it's very hard when you're laying on the floor in her bedroom and she won't even lay down,rocks the cot and screams constantly.She had really red gums today so I gave her calpol after dinner and got passed the hyper stage before bed and she seems to have gone to bed ok,although I usually find that if she sleeps straight away then she'll wake up about 1am for the rest of the night.She doesn't want milk,sometimes a small drink of water helps.She will not have any sort of comforter,blanket,teddy,etc.Only me.
Where the daytime clingy stuff is concerned,I do tell her where I'm going and come back and go again, I go down to her level and even take her hand or crawl along so that she can come with me to check.This I am learning to cope with and slowly slowly she is coming around.She now plays with big sister if I go out to hang washing or have a quick shower.
I have read Tracys' book and although not many people warm to the controlled crying I am going to try for 2 weeks to see.Failing that will put air bed in her room.
Will let you all know how it goes tonight.
Thanks for all of your support
Sarah
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I'm going to tell you what I did with Henry that wasn't controlled crying but got the point across to him just the same.
He went down to one nap probably about a month ago. He then went into his own room about two weeks ago. The night wakings were getting more frequent and longer so I bit the bullet . . .
After night time routine (bath, lotion, pj's, story, nurse, teeth, into sleeping bag), I rock him in the rocking chair for about 2 minutes singing a lullaby and talking to him quietly. I then tell him I love him and night-night and put him in his bed. I then walk out of the room. If he cried, I would count to 5-10-15 - whatever number was working for me that night - then go back in, lay him down and walk out again regardless of whether he was still crying. Then I would count again, go back in , lay him down and walk out. I treated nightwakings the same way. The first night it took 20 minutes for him to stop crying and he had one night waking that took about 30 minutes for him to stop crying. The second night it took two times for him to stop crying and he had no night wakings. The third night I had to go in once and he had no night wakings. The fourth night I did not have to go in at all.
I like this routine because it teaches the baby that you will not help him fall asleep but you will be there if he needs you, unlike controlled crying where all you're doing (IMHO) is teaching him that you WON'T be there. KWIM??
I hope you get this before you start tonight so you can consider some of this. This is what worked for me and it wasn't controlled crying.
Good luck to you.
edited to add - I'm thinking you won't get this before tonight considering it's the middle of the night for you! :D
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my daughter is not quite as old (14 mos.) but when we came back from a trip without her daddy she was SUPER clingy...we reassured her lots but would not always pick her up when she wanted. We would sit with her on the floor or give her her blankies and talk to her about how we were there for her but that she was okay.
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When Kyra went through her separation anxiety phase and when we have to get back on track, we do basically the same thing as henrysmama. It is what works for us. As time has gone on... it takes less and less time to get back after illness, etc. because we do it that way everytime. I have taken to calling it PD and reassure. Put them to bed and return in a few moments so that they know you are still there, but don't be a sleep prop. It will get better if you stay consistent (however you go about it). You will get through this phase! Hang in there. {{{Hugs}}}
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:cry: :cry: This is what I've been doing all night.Crying.Dd went to bed and I only had to go in there twice.However she woke at 2.30am.At first I thought she was ill as she was screaming so much I had to pick her up.Only then once I had done that did she snuggle into me and point to the door.Her way of telling me to go downstairs.
I know I have to stay consistant but I sat next to the cot once and I had put her in but she just screeched louder and louder until I could take no more,we're talking over an hour,I stroked,talked,tried to hold hands etc.Then it was a case of changing nappy and then a cuddle.Once I was calmer I thought I would put her to bed and leave her for 2 minutes every time.By 4.30am I had to get her again.We sat downstairs with the sun coming up and me silently crying.She finally asked for bed at 5.45am.
My DH's alarm went off at 6am and Jessica (3) woke at 6.05am.Luckily DH took her downstairs for milk and left her to watch Nick jr.She came and got into my bed to watch at about 7am and let me sleep until 8.15am when DD woke up.Now crying again (dd not me).
I feel like a failure because it all sounds as if I am just giving up and letting her push me arouind,perhaps I am.It didn't help that I had a migraine yesterday and my Daddy had to look after them.I'm just so tired.DH works and although could be more helpful he has no idea what to do.I honestly think I have to just put up with it until the phase passes.I will stick to just the one method now.Henrysmama Sarah is what I think I want to do.
I have to go now.Lots of screaming happening upstairs.
Thanks all
Sarah :cry:
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I found out the first night that it is so important to remain consistent. Never waiver. Easier said than done, I know, but true.
That first night, a couple of times when Henry would stop crying I thought I could stay in the room with him until he went to sleep. That was a sign to him to start trying to play with me again. So I had to leave again, which started the entire process over. If I had just remained consistent and not tried to stay in the room with him, it would have taken a lot less time.
I know it's hard. Just know that when it's all said and done, she'll be able to go to sleep on her own and get herself back to sleep when she wakes at night. Your life will be a lot easier and she'll get a lot more sleep so she'll feel better, too.
Keep us posted on how things are going for you. We're here for you. Good luck.
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Hello Sarah
I'm sorry I haven't been in touch. Johno and myself have both been unwell but I have kept an eye on the thread and saw you were getting great advice.
Henry's Mama is exactly right in her advice, you have to be consistent and you can't actually make them sleep. All you can do is set the scene and make them feel safe enough to relax.
I did wonder one other thing, do your and Emily's personalities differ quite a lot? I just wondered because sometimes that makes it really hard for a mum to understand their child's reaction to something? If so, just realising it can help.
Good luck, really try and get some help this weekend so you can catch up on sleep and tackle it with new strength.
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Sarah...
You'll be okay. You are just worn out and everything seems way worse when you are tired. Can you use this weekend to get dh involved so that you can get some sleep? Write out exactly what you are doing when she wakes up crying... everything you do and say and that way you can both do it. When it is dh turn... get some ear plugs and get some sleep! That way all of the pressure is not on you. Rest as much as possible (I know... impossible, right) during the day. Do something special for yourself... even if you just get out of the house for a walk (or a nap in the car :wink: ). This is going to pass and with a bit of work (okay a lot of work) on the part of you and your husband you will end up with a very good sleeper in the end. Consistency is the absolute key. Also... be confident in what you are doing. LO's sense when you feel in charge and it actually makes them feel safer.
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:cry: :cry: Here I go again.Last night dd woke at 10.30pm.I tried to stay in her room and kept laying her down while I sat next to her.The screams were awful and in the end I had to get her out because of her trying to climb out of the cot and also the noise was so bad she was going to wake up Jessica.
After the normal cuddle downstairs for about an hour,I realise know she is just getting her own way,I had to go into the cot with her,tight space,and gradually she lay down.Everytime I moved slightly she would shout "MUM"
and then settle down.This lasted about an hour and I got so upset that I just left her to cry which lasted about 20 minutes.
I felt like the worst Mum of all.The daytime clinginess is getting much better and she is becoming a joy to be with.I can't cope at night.DH is really trying to help but I get so frustrated and unhappy that I just take her from him and silently cry.He let me have a lay in this weekend while her took the kids which was great.I dread going to bed now.
This evening I have reread all replies and Henrysmama actually makes sense now.I think I was doing it wrong.I'm definately going to try that tonight.Just so that I'm right.Do I count to 10 for instance then go back and lay her down and go out and count to 10 again and then go in again and keep repeating this always keeping to the same timescale.Or do I need to add a few sceonds every now and again.When she cries and jumps up as soon as I lay her down do I still go out and count.I'm a bit confused.Henrysmama if you're available can you give me idiot proof instructions.
Thanks
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There are no idiots here. Just tired moms and dads trying to do the best they can!
Lay her down, say night-night and leave the room.
Count to 10
Go in, lay her down and leave
Count to 10
Go in, lay her down and leave
Count to 10
Go in, lay her down and leave
Do exactly the same thing for night wakings.
I didn't add any time to my count. It was hard enough to listen to the count of 10. I also didn't want him to think I wasn't coming back.
Eventually she'll stop crying - when she figures out that she's not getting her way, which may take a while (seriously - up to a couple hours). Be strong!!! Don't give in. If you give in, the next night will be harder because they're smart at this age - she'll figure out that if she cries hard enough or long enough you'll pick her up so tomorrow night she'll cry harder and longer until you give in again. Just be strong. It will get better. She'll come to understand that she needs to go to sleep by herself in her crib.
HTH. Please don't hesitate to ask for help or clarification. I will do whatever I can to help. Good luck! And keep us informed.
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:lol: :lol: Thankyou so much Sarah.DD woke at 2.20am I just kissed her goodnight laid her down and counting to 10 outside of the room.The screams were so loud but I persisted.It only took 40 minutes of this and she slept until 7.30am.You are my saviour and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I will keep it up now.It seems so easy.
Thankyou thankyou thankyou
Sarah
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:D You're welcome. So glad it worked!
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Hi there, I'm back from my vacation.
I'm so sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. Listen, you are not a failure or an idiot. I read that in one of your posts, and would love to give you a big cyber hug! It's going to get better.. right now, you are in the thick of it.
Two rules of in changing sleep habits--
1. It gets worse before it gets better.
2. Once it's better.. there's always a regression.
Knowing this.. you are better equipped to handle it. Habits always come back, but once you have your plan in place, and reimplement it, the habit goes away quickly.
How you decide to tackle it, is up to you. Being a BW moderator, I do recommend BW approaches. You know your child the best, and know what will work and not work. Once you decide on your plan, carve it in stone, take a deep breath and go for it. The first few nights are hell.. I will be honest with you.. but toddlers have a great capactity to learn cause and effect. This can work with you (or against you!).
Hang in there.. it will get better!
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i'd like to thank everyone for all of the help and info.DD is a new child.I've only been doing it for 3 nights.the first night as I said was 40 minutes,the 2nd night she woke up and cried for about 2 seconds and fell asleep.Last night it took about 35 minutes.It all seems so easy now and the daytimes are nicer as well.
Thanks again.
Sarah.
P.S I will continue to keep you updated if you all don't mind.
:lol: :lol:
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Glad it's going well for you. Continued updates are appreciated. :D
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I am so so happy for you. Good job! I wish you lots of happy sleep :D
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Hi guys,
well things are going from bad to worse.She is sleeping well all night which is great.BUT,putting her to bed is a nightmare now.She is hysterical if I leave the room and has to be sung to and stroked.I spent 3 hours tonight trying to leave her.She can be asleep while I'm in the room,whether it's by the cot or by the door.As soon as I go out she screams like a bansee.I'm going back to the can't cope stage and it's really getting to me.
Anymore help would be very welcome
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I'm sorry things are not going well right now. I don't know if I can help but . . .
I'm not trying to sound accusatory but something must have happened for her to start taking 3 hours. I know how hard it is to be consistent. What changed? Did you give in one night and stay in the room with her until she fell asleep?
I know sometimes there is a regression, too. Maybe that's what's going on??
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I'm not really one to give advice as I am just about to take the same path you just took :D
But if nothing changed and you had been consistent as Sarah mentioned have you thought that she may be teething or coming down with something (fingers crossed this is not the case!) but when Khyan is really clingy and is crying like you are saying then normally something is just around the corner, unfortunately it's normally an illness :cry:
Just a thought :D
I hope things are back on track for you both really soon
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Hi
Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and wondering how things are going?
xx
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Hi all,
Thanks for the messages.DD is fine medically and has no illness or irritating teeth.The only thing that has changed really is the fact that she's not waking up in the night.(Although she did last night but it only took 1 1/2 hrs to get her back by pu/pd)It's almost as if she feels she has to cry and cling as much as poss.
I have tried to make up a bed by the side of her but she doesn't even let me sit down,let alone lay down :x
I'm getting so exhausted as dd #1 is up bright and breezy at 6am and sometimes I only have 2-3 hours sleep.
The weird thing is,if she goes to bed asleep straight away,normally on nanny when she's here,then I know she will be up during the night.If she takes hours to put to bed then I know she'll sleep right through.
The pu/pd only seems to work during the night when she has been asleep for a while.
Should I be doing something different when I first put her to bed.I don't want to confuse her with different methods.
Will be glad of some MORE assistance.
:oops:
Thanks
Sarah
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Hi,was being a real girl in the last post.I have turned a new corner and have persisted on the pu/pd and I have an angel.She still takes about 25 minutes to sleep but it's getting less and less.
Thankyou all for your help :lol:
Sarah