BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: oscar10405 on August 02, 2005, 09:29:09 am
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:( Hello. I would like someone, anyone with the time, to help me. I think I have read just about everything there is to read with regards to baby sleeping. I have spent HOURS looking at the internet trying to find answers and now I am just too confused and don't know where to start. I was lent Tracy's book when my son was a few weeks old and I found it too complicated for my sleep-deprived brain and I thought - 'nah..can't be this organised! A schedule...how silly!' but now, my son is 16 weeks old and I cry every day because I am tired and feel totally out of my depth. My dream would be to have someone come and spend a few days with us and SHOW me what to do because I feel I need that support. We are being referred to a sleep centre but I am dreading this as I think they will be too tough on my darling little boy. I will write what he currently does and if anyone has a suggestion, please...go ahead, even better, write out a plan for me! - even BETTER....I will pay for you to fly to me and show me! ( :roll: )
Okay, here goes - as he was an unsettled baby from day 1, we got him into the habit of sleeping on us, that is, we would jiggle him, walking around the house and then slowly sit down on the couch and he will sleep in our arms, never for more than 40 mins, often needing to be resettled during that time (yup....stand up, jiggle, shush all over again). He often goes to sleep with one eye open, watching us! At night, say around 7.30, we do the "thing" and sit on the couch, whispering to each other, often watching movies with subtitles so we can have the volume down, until about 10.30 when we will crawl into bed, give him a feed (breast baby only) and go to 'sleep'. He sleeps in the crook of my arm and basically tosses and turns all night, needing to be reassured constantly. We wake up around 7am and start all over again. I keep him up for 1.5 hours then begin the sleep thing. As his naps are so short and inconsistant, I have not been able to establish a sleep, feed, play routine so his feeds fit in anywhere from the end of a sleep to the beginning, or the middle! I feed him every 3 hours.
He is a very alert boy, gets VERY excited and hyper (like his Dad). He is happy most of the time. We have spent lots of $$ on 'gadgets', even $400 on a baby hammock that he won't use. His cot is attached to our bed and I would like to keep this, if I can as I've read so much on the benefits of co-sleeping. At the very least, I want to be able to keep the cot in our room so he knows we are around. We have just purchased a teddy bear that plays womb sounds and would like to start a pick up/put down type thing on the weekend. I just don't know where to start. He has NEVER slept on his own and as soon as you put him down he'll go crazy (he plays happily on his back).
So....what do I want? I would LOVE to be able to him down for day naps, that is, put him in bed so my arms are free for a while. I would LOVE him to get past that 40 minute sleep cycle (and stop waking up after 10 minutes etc) and I would LOVE him to sleep at night (I don't care if he wakes up 2 times for a feed...just to get a restful night would be heaven). I would LOVE to be able to put him to bed after his bath etc and watch normal tv with my husband and eat my dinner with two hands.
He also sleeps in a GroBag sleeping bag as he would wriggle out of being wrapped and i used to worry about how many blankets to use etc, the GroBag make it easy in that regard. Um....what else....no dummy (we tried yesterday for the first time, didn't want it!)...no medical problems but does get bad wind at night, really stresses him out as he farts!
I know I could buy the book but I'm scared that it will all just confuse me again!
pretty please....help!.....i love him and want to enjoy him....
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Hello and welcome,
First of all, I feel for you and can completely empathize with you. I have been there! It does get better as long as you are consistent with whatever you choose to do. It sounds like you've started doing some things that have turned into habits and, as a result, your little guy is dependent on these things to fall asleep. You are lucky that you are trying to tackle this now rather than when he's older.
I would recommend starting to extend your son's feedings to 4 hours, as long as he's gaining weight well. Tracy recommends a 4 hour schedule at 4 months. You might find it useful to check out some sample schedules on the EASY boards.
I think your first job would be to teach your baby to fall asleep indpendently (right now you're probably thinking, 'ha! Yeah right. That will never happen!' :wink:) Try reading the special sleep interview with Tracy that is at this link...
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/a-special-sleep-interview-with-tracy-hogg-vt451.html
I would recommend using pick up/put down. It will be difficult the first few nights, but it will pay off. There will be crying, but at least you are there with your baby instead of leaving the room. Again, consistency is the key. If you sometimes decide to resort to rocking/jiggling while doing pu/pd, it will be very confusing for your baby and will just set you back. They also tend to regress on Day 5. You may also find that your little one settles better by leaving him in the crib. Some babies find the picking up too stimulating (especially since your son is 'hyper' as you say). You may also want to stand there and just put your hand over his tummy as he lays there. This is what I did and then I slowly started leaving sooner and sooner until he didn't need me to be there.
Check out the pick up/put down board for instructions. There's a great post by jenapple at the top that is really useful.
Do you swaddle your son? You say he's very excitable and alert, so this may help. Do you have a nap/bedtime routine? This is extremely important so that your little guy knows it's time to wind down and prepare for sleep.....especially since he's so spirited.
I found that around this time, I reached my breaking point as well. It will be tough, but as long as you stick with whatever you decide to do, it will work. I was like you and read every book under the sun about baby sleep. I realized that I had to decide for myself what was best for my son and tweak the methods I liked best.
Hope this is somewhat helpful. Good luck and keep us posted!
:D
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Hi, I think Isacc's mum has given you some good advice. I also think that at this point it is really important for you to decide exactly which method you are going to use. I remember getting lots of different advice from family, friends etc and being totally confused, trying lots of different things every few days, because I didn't think it was working. Then I decided to stick to baby whisperer methods and things started to get better. The one thing I did learn was that:
Consistency
Persistency
Patience-
were the key things when using any method. It sounds as though you have quite a lot of work to do, so just concentrate on one or two things. Try not to change too much at once, so that you end up feeling overwhelmed.
I used to read Tracys book when I was breast feeding, but I hear what you are saying when you explained that you feel exausted.
You will change things once you've decided on your method, and stuck to it. Things can only get better.
One last thing which I found really useful, was having this website, so when i was doubting the method I could contact someone who would give me the confidence and belief to carry on. so do stay in touch with someone.
Good luck and loads of hugs.
Cheryl
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Hi there,
I think you have gotten some great advice, but I just wanted to add that if you are able to buy Tracy's newest book - The baby whisperer solves all your problems...' you would find it an inavluable resource - especially to get completely clued up on PU/PD and to have it at hand for reassurance when you do PU/PD. I think that by implementing PU/PD you will be able to aid DS to learn how to self soothe - so that he will be able to transition from one sleep cycle to the next, and not wake up and need reassurance from you to get back to sleep, like he does at the moment.
I would also suggest getting DH on board with PU/PD and then he can step in and take over if you need a break and think you are going to cave in and go back to what you were doing. The big big big key to PU/PD being successful is CONSISTENCY which is why it would be good to get DH clued up to take over if need be. When I did PU/PD there were times when I wanted to cave in as I thought it just isn't working for my baby - and I had lost count of the number of PU/PD I had done past 150 - but honest, stick with it - it works!
Tracy's latest book also has a very very good PU/PD section in which she describes how to do PU/PD to be most succesful according to age. For example, at 16 weeks you may have to swaddle to cut down on the baby's stimulation - when he cries, comfort him with soft reassuring tones whilst he is in his cot and then gently pick him up and hold him until he stops crying, but not more than four or five minutes. Don't keep holding him if he is fighting you - put him down and try and use pat/shush to calm him in the cot. On average, at three or four months, PU/PD takes around 20 minutes to work.
Four months can also be an unsettled time for babies anyway, because they go through a growth spurt - so try and increase his calories during the day - this will help him to go longer at night without a feed.
Good luck - we are here if you need us
Dee
x
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Definately find a method that you are comfortable with and stick to it. When I first started, I had read soooo many articles and books that I didn't know where to begin. I also had begun to doubt my instinct and did'nt trust that I was making the right decisions. I still waver, especially when trying to do PU/PD in the middle of the night, but visiting these boards gives me courage and confidence and I know I'm doing the right thing for my baby. Once you make the decision to just go with it and make a plan, you'll feel loads better. I agree, just start with one or two areas. When we started, I just concentrated recognizing my baby's sleepy signs. Then moved on to not breastfeeding before sleep, and have now moved on to sleeping in the crib. It can be overwhelming and you might feel like a prisoner in your house/baby's room, but it will be worth it when you can take a shower in the middle of the day, or actually fix yourself a meal for lunch!
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I don't know if I will help you much, but I found that patience and persistency were the keys. In fact, when he went to bed, i would just get ready for the long haul, grab a beer and sit comfortably next to his cot. I would try reassuring and talking to him and if things got bad I would pick him up, but to be honest I didn't really do the pick up/put down thing. He was able to calm down by me just being next to him. It took along time as well, not the 3 days I was expecting, but he is able to fall asleep by himself now and I've never had to do walking, jiggling, etc. I guess what I am trying to say is that I saw Tracy's method as very similar to CIO, but with you there to witness it. It is hard, so hard I felt like crying with him sometimes, but it works.
I needed advice badly at the beginning and in fact I wanted to do a phone consultation with Tracy. I argued with my husband about the cost vs. benefit and then I found out two days later that she had passed away. I really felt let down, like I couldn’t manage it with her, but just sticking to what the book says has worked for us. My husband calls it the bible.
I had to move my ds to his room when he was 3 months old, because i was finding it extremely difficult to sleep with him in the same room. Every movement woke me up, if dh snored I panicked the lo will wake up, etc. So for me getting ds out of our bedroom has been a godsend in terms of sleep.
Hang in there, it will get better independent of what you do or which method you choose. My friend rocked her ds to sleep, didn't have any routine and he sleeps fine now. It is tough but it passes quickly.
Monche
mom of Ryan
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Thanks to all of you who replied, I really appreciate it. I will take on board the advice and give it a go on the weekend (husband has 3 days off). I know it's not going to be easy... :?
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Hello - me again. Had a big think and still have so many questions...should read the book but like i said - i'm too confused now! Can someone help me with the following scenario......when I put my bub down to sleep, he will go crazy - and sometimes he will get so hysterical that I cannot console him for a very long time, often so long that it runs into his next feed time, so I give him the boob and, of course, he falls asleep on it. What do you do then? If i put him down, it would all start again and I'm guessing he would never end up getting any sleep. Isn't this dangerous for his wellbeing? I guess I'm saying, do you NEVER give up? At what point do you say, okay, this is really hurting him, I have to give him a break? Some sleep clinics recommend giving up after 30 mins at his age and going for a walk in the pram etc and trying again next sleep time but you guys don't recommend that do you? See, told you I'm confused. My husband will help but he will be looking to me for guidance and I just don't have the knowledge or strength. Also, is it okay to have the cot attached to our bed? Sorry, just want to get it right. :cry:
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What I did for a while was put him on the boob until he got very sleepy, then plug the dummy and put him in his cot. It wasn't what Tracy said but in the difficult times, it helped. Also, I tend to play it by ear in terms of whether to stop and take him out of the room when he gets hysterical. My advice to you would be keeping him in the room at the beginning, because he will be just resisting a change in how you put him to sleep. If you stop after 30 min, then he will just be more frustrated. Stick with it for as long as it takes at the beginning, until you "break him in". Then, once he is able to settle himself to sleep, if it does go wrong, i.e. hysterics, take him out after 40 min. A change of scenery can work wonders.
I know it is difficult to watch, but eventually they do tire and fall asleep, he will not be extremely sleep deprived forever. The only "wrong" thing you can do is not stick with one method, because if you are changing the rules on him all the time, he will have to learn something new all the time and will have more difficulty.
If you like having the cot attached to your bed, then by all means keep it there. But bear n mind that if you decide to move him to his room eventually, you will encounter resistance later. I slept with my mom and dad and even as an adult I don’t like being alone.
I forgot to mention, it is very important to move him to a 4-hour schedule. It follows his natural rhythm and will assist you in getting him to know when is sleepy time.
Hope it go well
Monche
Mom of Ryan
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Wonderful advice from everyone! One thing I'm not sure I saw was to do a consistent wind down ritual. I think this is so important - my little one knows as soon as we go up and I shut the curtains that its time for sleep. She could have been full of beans 3 minutes ago and suddeny she starts yawning!
All this is Oscar, is doing exactly the same for every sleep time. I wrap Ruby in a blanket, take her upstairs, shut the curtains, half swaddle (talking quietly to her, telling her it's sleepy time), sit with her on the bed for a few mintutes cuddled against me until she is either nice and relaxed or is really fidgety (tracey says they fidget, arch and flail when they are trying to soothe themselves and I would definitely agree), then I put her in her cot and pat her bum for a few minutes, then go. If she cries (not mantra cries) I go back and soothe her IN the crib, just rubbing and patting her bum til she is calm again.
I found the bum patting was good because when I used to jiggle her I used to pat her bum then, so she already associated it with falling asleep.
One other thing - don't think you are being mean to your son by helping learn how to sleep! It is so important for the whole family and your son's independence to learn how to do it himself. His cries are frustration because it's hard to learn something new, but you being with him to help means he knows you love and care for him - you are not abandoning him. He is not in pain and he can cope! Just remember your role is to guide and teach your son and you are doing him a great service if you are consistent with him in learning how to get to sleep! :) If you are totally consistent it won't take more than a few days for him to learn.
Good luck! Just remember you can always come and let off steam here when it gets hard! :D
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Hi there - I think it would benefit you to have a plan of action! If you post your current EASY schedule with naps/feeds then we can sort you out an action plan and if you have any question, we can go through them one by one.
In reference to your questions above - It will be hard the first time you get DS to sleep without any props - he will get frustrated, cry, thrash around - its just his way of telling you 'Mum, we don't usually do it like this!' if you are consistent - and are calm, talk to him gently, reassure him - 'its ok hun, its just bedtime...' use pat/shush - he will know you haven't abandoned him, he is crying through frustration and not fear - I guess its like when you have one of those nights yourself - that you are tired and you desperatly want to sleep, but you just can't get to sleep - its frustrating!
Post back and we will sort you out a plan
Dee
x
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Just seen your message about, how long to try to get them to take a nap, before giving up. I seem to remember reading somewhere (either in Tracys book, or the sleep interview) that you should continue for the length of the average sleep cycle, which I believe is 45minutes. But, like Monche said if bub becomes hysterical, take him out, distract and calm him, before starting again.
I also agree that having a wind down routine is really important.
Cheryl
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Hello all, once again, thanks so much for your replies. I have printed the Sleep Interview and trying to read it but it's hard when he's with me 24/7! I don't really have an EASY plan? My day is sort of all over the place but goes a bit like this I guess...
7am Get up
Play with him for an hour or so then he gets tired. Try to get him to nap (rock jiggle etc walking around the house) and he will be totally unpredictable, sometimes 20 mins, sometimes 1hour but ONLY with me being persistant and resettling him a couple of times.
Around about 10.30 - more play (tummy time etc) and at around 12.00 - 1.00pm we go for a walk in the pram. He will always sleep in the pram but ONLY ever for 30-40 mins then wakes up, bright eyed and happy.
We have a bath around 6-7pm and try to get him to sleep for the rest of the evening usually.
Basically, I have been feeding him approx. every 3 hours but not always, depends, sometimes he seems to need it sooner, sometimes I have to offer out of desperation of getting him to sleep! I usually watch him for tired signs but know that after 1.5 hours I should be winding him down.
Yesterday, his schedule was like this:
7am Wake Up (6am feed)
8.30am Nap (feel asleep really quickly)
11.15 Get Up (Re settled him a few times)
12.30 Walk in Pram
12.50 Sleep in Pram
1.20 Wake in Pram
At around 3.30 I was trying to get him to have a nap. This took AGES, walking around, jiggling, shushing etc...He would get sleepy but would NOT go to sleep, kept waking up crying every 5 or 10 mins. I did this for nearly 2 hours and then gave up. This was a particulary bad afternoon - I don't know what was wrong, the same thing happened the night before. We went out to our friends house briefly, got back around 7, bathed him and tried again. This time I used our NEW Prop which is a Mommy Bear that plays womb sounds. He seemed to like this, and I patted his back and we went to bed at 9.30pm together!
As usual (every night the same) he slept okay until around 3am when he starts getting wind pain (99% sure it's wind as he whinges, fidgets and farts) and I spent the rest of the night until 7 am constantly trying to soothe him. This is in bed still but sometimes I have to hold him up against my chest and pat his back to soothe him. He isn't hysterical just can't sleep.
I think he would sleep MUCH better at night if he didn't get the wind problem. Yes, I burp etc but not after dream feed at 11.00pm because he'll wake up if I do that!
Is is okay to use the Momma Bear when getting him off to sleep, it's easier that 'ssshhhing' for hours and he likes it?!
See.......I need help!
:(
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Hi again - me AGAIN.....having a rotten day. Really reached an all-time low, thinking very negative thoughts about motherhood and doubting my suitability as a Mum. For the last few days, Oscar has had a few crying spells which are totally out of the blue and out of character. This morning, I got him to sleep with the usual methods and he woke up 40 mins later, as usual, but this time he was hysterical for about 10 mins. He was the same yesterday afternoon and the evening before that. I have no idea what's wrong and now I'm scared to start the "plan" tomorrow because there might be something wrong? I've checked for teeth, couldn't see any, and he doesn't have a temp or anything. Has anyone else had a baby that did this at this age for no reason? Sorry ladies......I'm all alone in this town, my family and friends are interstate and it's tough...
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You are not a bad mom! Babies are just very hard work and it's difficult to know what they need a lot of the time (which is why EASY is so great!).
My little one was like you describe until I started EASY, but to be able to get down to it I had to do a few things:
First, as she was not sleeping well and was so overtired I had to have a VERY relaxing time with her for several days. This meant not playing much (no play gym, toys etc. the only playing we did was just a little talking and cooing), having lots of quiet time, going for walks, but not doing stimulating things like going to the shops or having people round. This helped calm her down and it was loads easier to get her to sleep as she was not so over tired and over stimulated. I kept things this way for probably a week or so, and now whenever we get off track.
The second thing i can relate to is the windiness and inexplicable crying. Have you tried eliminating anything from your diet? The thing I found the worst was dairy products (it is the protein in them), so now I don't have any and her wind is 100% improved. The other thing is no caffeine or chocolate. There are obviously other things that may be causing your son wind problems, onions, garlic, some vegetables like cauliflower, broccoli. The list is endless really, but it is worth finding out what is giving him wind. It takes approximately 24 hrs for something you ate to affect him and if it's something you are drinking less time.
You can overcome this and start enjoying being a Mum again! :) As I said at the beginning, one of the best things about EASY is it is so much easier to know what they are likely to want at a certain time and it improves your confidence tremendously. I really would take the time to read some of the book - I sat in the garden with the rocker chair - rock the baby and read. I also have the steps for pu/pd written up on my wall by the cot, so I remember what to do.
Keep going, and try to feel good about yourself - you love your son so much you are trying to find out what to do and make some difficult changes - that really deserves a pat on the back :D
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I just wanted to point out that in her sleep interview, Tracy says that you should only try to get them to sleep for 45 min, a sleep cycle. However, when talking about pu/pd, she often says that it is not unusual for first timers to need 1.5 hrs, so I guess it is up to you hopw to interpret this.
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Where have you all gone? :shock: We have started today. It is as bad as I thought. The first session last about 1.5 hours. At first, I put him down sleepy but awake and went to sleep! We couldn't believe it, and thought NO WAY! He's never done that. Then he woke up 20 mins later and it was pu/pd for 1.5 hours. Eventually, he fell asleep sobbing lightly but woke up 10 mins later. It was almost time for a feed so I fed him and kept him up for about 20 mins, low key. My husband is in there now, starting again. I'm so scared it's not going to work. We have him on his side but he keeps moving his head around to look at me with big eyes and it kills me.
ps I've ordered the book, will take 2 weeks to get here as we live fairly remote.
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Hi Oscar 1045!
That's brilliant that you've started. It is going to be tough at first, I can really relate to that. KEEP GOING! You're doing fine.
Remember- the key things are:
CONSISTENCY
PERSISTENCY and
PATIENCE
My Baby was a touchy/textbook babe and sleep - of any kind was a problem. We stuck with BW methods and now sleep is fine. Seems to have turned into an angel baby.
It will work. Sometimes they do wake up at around 10 and 20 mins, this can be when they are making the transition from light to a deeper sleep. Jacob always did this. (for him it was 12 mins & 20 mins) I could set the clock by it.
Your doing Brilliantly!!
Keep us all posted.
Hugs
Cheryl
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Thanks Cheryl - your encouragement helps so much. I feel so badly for him, especially since he has never slept without us. I'm nervous about tonight - and feel very sad because it was very special sharing the bed with him (even though we didn't sleep well, I still worry that I am missing out on some bonding here). I will persist though, we've started now, too mean to turn back isn't it?
One question....we are currently doing the p/u p/d when he cries but when he's calm we are patting him on the back etc in the cot. Once he is asleep, how long do we keep patting him for? I read in Tracy's interview that it's about 20 mins or so. The reason I'm confused is this. Is the patting another thing that he's going associate with sleep? Ie He's not really 'self-settling' if I am patting him? Or is this okay and not a prop?
Thanks to anyone who can answer that...
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Please help! I'm scared that we are doing it all wrong.
This is how it's gone so far - please tell me I'm doing this right, he's getting so upset and it's killing me...
12.00 Nap time, did the wind down etc, then put him in the cot, on his side and patted his back. He went to sleep very quicky but woke up after 20 mins and so we did the pu/pd for about an hour and then he slept for about 10 mins, woke up, then we did pu/pd for about 10 mins but it became feed time, so I fed him and kept him up for about 20 mins.
2.30pm Nap time again, almost the same as the first time, he eventually got about 20 mins and my DH has been going for about an hour trying to get him to have more. He calms straight away when he's pick up and screams as soon as you start lowering him. Then he 'whimpers' and sniffs - I've NEVER heard my baby sniff from crying - it's making me feel so deeply sad...
It's now 4.40pm and I don't know if we keep persisting until next feed.
Please, someone, is this normal? Do you spend all day and night doing this until he has a longish sleep? I feel so evil.
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You're doing great Oscar! Yes, it is normal for him to get upset, but at least you are there with him, helping him through his frustrations, instead of leaving him to cry it out on his own - which I think is cruel! Try not to give up or all that crying and all the stress you are going through will be for nothing.
It's wonderful that your partner is so supportive and helpful - I wish I had that - I had to do it all on my own.
You said you were worried if you were doing it right. Here's something I wrote a little while back, maybe it will reassure you and help a bit:
Initially I tried a combination of pat/shh and pick up/put down. This seemed to work pretty well. Trying to think back now to what I actually did?? Well, first off I always take her up athe first sign of tiredness, which is about 1.5 hrs after she has woken up; shut the curtains, swaddle with one arm out (she starts to cry here as she knows she is going to sleep!) I put her up against my chest and pat/shh until she is breathing deeply but not asleep or until she starts to arch and wriggle. Then I put her down on her side and pat her bum and do a little shhing if she needs it, if she settles quickly I just put my hand on her for a minute, then go. I try to keep her in the crib to soothe her, often times she finds her thumb or I put it in her mouth (she normally goes to sleep here). If she is unsettled or overtired and starts crying even with me soothing her in the crib, I pick her up and do a little more patting until she relaxes again or wriggles. Then put her down again and do the same and just keep going with the same pattern until she falls asleep. At first it took quite a few goes, but now I can generally soothe her in the crib if she cries. That was the first goal! It took about 2/3 days til I could just leave her in the crib. I think she is so used to going to sleep in the crib now instead of on me she settles pretty quickly. The other thing I did fin the beginning was when she was settled in the crib, but not asleep I would stay out of sight in the room so if she started crying again I could go back to her easily (and if she went to sleep sneak out of the room!), always starting with trying to settle in the crib. I generally don't shush now, just pat unless she is really upset.
Hope today is better for you all :)
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Thanks Onewoman! I am lucky to have my husband. I basically wouldn't do it otherwise so you are very, very brave! :) He finally went to sleep the second time but only for 40 mins. It's now time to bath and do the nightime routine (sigh!). It's been harder than I thought. So...you left before she was asleep? This part confuses me as the sleep interview says that you pat them asleep and keep it going for 20 mins or they'll wake up again and you have to start all over?
We also have a "momma bear" they plays womb sounds. He seems to love it but I think he knows when it turns itself off (after 40 mins) so now I'm doubting using this too?!
Does anyone else find this stuff so unbelievably complex? I used to think I was intelligent!? :?
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HI Oscar - Just got back in! It was interesting to read one womans post, it really mirrored my experience.
I found it all terribly complicated at first. It wasn't really until I had been through it that I really understood it all. ( I used to think I was reasonably intelligent too!) Basically, it's all about teaching babies skills for independence - particularly sleep!
It sounds as though you are doing very well - You got bub to sleep for 40 mins - that's great!
There are a few things I wanted to try to help with -
Firstly momma bear. 40 - 45mins - is the length fo the average sleep cycle. At this point the baby rouses from a deep to light to wakeful state. If they haven't learnt to fall asleep again they will wake up completely. It may be that your baby has not become dependent on momma bear, but not quite learned how to get back to sleep.
You could try taking it away. I would say that if your Bub is no more distressed than usual, it'd be worth not using it - you dont want to create more problems. However if they do find it distressing, then perhaps leave this for now and tackle it as a separate issue later.
At approx 10 and 20 mins ( I think I have that right ) They pass through from light to deeper sleep. At this point, they can also wake. I could time Jacob to the minute! I think this is why Tracy says pat for the whole 20 mins. If a baby is awake and not distressed it is ok to leave them to settle on their own, but remember that you are still at the begining stages of teaching bub how to get himself off. As time goes on you'll probably be able to do this. She also says only continue for the length of one sleep cycle-45mins, before having a break by taking the bub out of the room.
It's also the right thing to do, by feeding him when he is due, even if you have not been able to get him to sleep.
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Ok, just a couple more things.
If you are unsure how long to keep patting for, I would do a little experiment. Get a little seat - I used a storage box with a pillow at cot height, so that my back didn't ache when patting, and put a clock or watch that you can see ok. Once Oscar is asleep, stop the patting and really observe him - his breathing, any movements etc and see what happens. Watch to see what the time is when he begins to stir. You may notice his breathing change , he may squeek, or do that juddery breath thing. Babies sometimes do this when they are passing into a deeper state. This is the bit that you have to try and get them through using patting, shhshing. Do this several times and it will give you an idea of what is happening. Or you may find that you don't actually need to continue patting for the full 20 mins. With Jacob, I could stop patting, but at 12 and 20 mins, I would have to start again. I would pre- empt it and start patting just before I thought he was going to stir. I had to do it lots of times but it did work.
I also did what One woman did - when Jacob cried, I'd pick him up, p/sh until he was calm, not crying his eyes may have closed but he was not asleep. I'd pop him in the cot and if he started again, repeat. This way you can comfort Oscar until he stops crying.
Yes I think p/sh can become a prop. The difference is though, with this kind of prop you can grade it - ie gradually reduce the length of time, and you can also do it while they are in the cot, which is different from rocking, jigging or using something like a wind up toy - like momma bear.
Hope this helps a bit.
I am not an expert, so I won't be offended if anyone corrects me!
Good Luck
Cheryl
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Hi there,
I am so so sorry I haven't chimed in for a couple of days - just in the middle of moving house and I am pregnant and wiped out!! I have read through the advice that the other ladies have given you and they are great, very supportive :lol:
The one thing which popped into my mind when I was looking at your EASY routine, was has DS ever shown any signs of reflux? There is a list of symptoms on the reflux boards - Mads had reflux and she was very unsettled until we got her on some meds and elevated her cot.
How are things going today?
Dee
x
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Hello again!
I have just re-read through your post on your EASY schedule and could you just confirm that I have this right:
E 7
A
S 8.30-9.30
E 10
A
S 12.50-1.20
E 1
A
S Fights nap at 3ish
E 4
A
Bedtime routine starts at 7.30
Sleep - 9.30
DF
I think with a few tweaks to help you get onto a consistent 3 hour EASY routine - DS would get more calories during the day so would need less at night which would aid sleep training. Also - are you currently doing sleep training in his crib in his room for each nap and bedtimes? Is his bedtime routine exactly the same each day?
Sorry about all the questions :lol:
Dee
x
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Hi - thanks to all for your replies, i really do live for them these days! Today is Day 2. The night was awful, but I kind of expected it to be. One of Oscar's big problems at night is the wind (I have mentioned this earlier). Should I post something in the 'nightwakings' section? Basically, from about 2am onwards, he starts wriggling and looking uncomfortable, bringing his knees up a bit and grunting etc, and then eventually doing some farts. This goes on until the morning and if I don't try to settle him through it all, he wakes up fully. I was up every 20 - 30 mins with this from 2am to 6am when he decided it was UP time. I fed him at 3am too. I eat dairy-free, gluten-free and have very bland veges at night with dinner (carrots, corn, peas - never broccoli, onion etc). I do have 2 pears a day as my only fruit intake so I'm going to cut them out today and see if that makes a difference?! It's just that it's useless trying to do these new methods when he's clearly not comfy.
Dee - yes, we did look into the reflux thing but I don't think he's got it. We tried Zantac for a few days, no difference and he is very happy to play on his back during the day? I think it's wind as he does lots of farts (at night) and in the morning, a big explosive poo! (PS I know how horrible moving can be, I did it pregnant and was very tired!)
We have ditched the Momma Bear because it went through a set of batteries every session?! Crazy.
This morning, I fed him in bed at 6ish and he was so tired he wanted to cuddle next to me and sleep - broke my heart as I moved him back to his cot (of course he wouldn't sleep then so we got up).
Thanks for all your support ladies, means so much to me. Sorry my posts are so long....one day hopefully I'll have not much to write!
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:D Hi Mum of Oscar. You are doing so well.
My Jacob also suffered with wind and colic, which gradually got better as time went on. Can you get anything to relieve this? In England we have infacol for infants and gripe water for the older babies. It really helped with wind, but have to say didn't make much difference with the colic, which he just outgrew. I think there are some tips in Tracy's book about dealing with these problems. Do you take time to wind him thoroughly? I used to have to do thsi for 30mins+ before bedtime, and even then he would wake 3 or more times and need winding.
I tried changing my diet but felt it made little difference. I think its ok to carry on with the plan, you can still comfort him while doing the p/sh thing.
Keep going :wink:
Cheryl
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Just been reading some of your older messages, and you say that Oscar wakes at 40 mins. Could you go into the room just before he stirs and then as you think he is waking place a hand on his chest and gently apply some pressure. If he continues to stir begin p/ shing in the cot . See if this gets him back off.
Can you tell us exactly what you are doing just before sleeps and what are you doing now to get him off?
Cheryl
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Hi everyone, thanks again for your replies. I just typed a post then tried to attach a photo of Oscar and lost it all! :x
Now I'm too tired to type it again, going to go to bed - it's getting late here.
Will reply tomorrow.....(yawn!)
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Hi again....This is become a long saga I know, but we're getting closer to a resolution, I think...!
We are on Day 3 now, Oscar has just gone down for his first morning nap. I'll write basically what we've been doing, the only thing I'm vague on his times because it always varies slightly.
The last two days, we begin at 7am (ish), he has a feed (then little cuddle in our bed for about 15mins - I really feel he needs this little bit?!). He's usually up for 1.5 hours but sometimes less as he gets tired a bit sooner (maybe because the nights are crappy!).
For every nap, including night time (except we have a bath), we play some relaxing baby music (mum's hearbeat etc) and 'slow dance' for about 10 mins. Then we go into the room, put him in his sleeping bag, say "it's time to sleep" and put him down, on his side and start 'shushing' and patting on back. He always cries but it isn't hysterical and has been taking, on average, 10-15 mins. We stay with him for about 15-20 mins, patting lightly. He always wakes up at 40 min mark, we go in and re-settle the same way (it sometimes takes only 5 mins) and stay with him again for 15-20 mins. He has been sleeping for another 45 min cycle. I don't try for a 3rd after that! Oh - I forgot, he had a nap around 5.30pm yesterday and I didn't try to resettle after 40 mins because it was too close to night time - this is okay isn't it?
At night, it's the same thing, bed around 7.30-8.00 or when he gets tired. I have been giving him the dream feed at 11pm but we noticed he started to get squirmy after that so my husband picked him up for about 10 mins for his food to go down and then put him down. It seemed to help a bit but he was harder to put down because quite awake at that point!.
He woke at 2.45 am so I fed him. I held him against my chest and rocked for about 10 mins after that to let his food go down and then he did big poo (unusual for night now) so I changed him. He thought it was play time then and was very awake but I got him back to sleep, but it was 4am by this stage! (i think the poo might have helped him with the wind factor every night, maybe that's why he struggles because the feeds are making him want to poo but he doesn't poo as well lying down?).
He woke again at 4.45, I patted him back to sleep, then again at about 5.45....then 7.15!.....Ahhhhh......what a night.
SO.......I don't know - I guess it's sort of working, but he still cannot get past the first cycle. We try to go in before he wakes to catch it but he wakes up the same anyway, it's not like we stop him from waking by being there.
Dee - Do you think I should go back to 3 hourly feeds? I don't mind feeding him in the night, just sucks that the whole process takes so long. What about the dream feed? That always wakes him up!
Also, I don't think he's got reflux, we did look into that but we don't think he does. I think he has more tummy problems, digestive issues.
Thanks again - any suggestions GREATLY appreciated. It's still very stressful and hard work, just a different kind of hard work! We still creep around the house and be quiet and feel we spend most of the day in there settling him! But.........I hope this will improve with time?.
One thing I do hate is seeing him cry EVERY time he goes to sleep, I wish that sleep was a nice thing for him to do, not fight every time. That makes me sad?
xxx
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Me again......today has been unusual (Day 3). This morning, we put him down and he did the usual 45 min thing so we re-settled and he woke only 20 mins later so we resettled and he got another 20 mins or so? Then the next nap, we put him down and he went past the 45 min mark (we were silently thrilled but cautious...!) and woke up after an hour? I went in and he seemed pretty awake, not crying or anything so we got him up? Then he got cranky after only 20 mins of being up so we thought 'did we make a mistake and should we have re-settled?'. Anyway, I kept him up for nearly 2 hours and put him down. He's now in there, and it's been 1 hour, 15 mins.
Can someone tell me....is a little over 45 mins acceptable (an hour or just over)? Surely sometimes they only need a shorter nap?
Please be patient with me ladies, I'm getting the hang of it , very slowly albeit! xx
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Wow! You are doing excellently :lol: Well done to both of you for sticking with it when you must have felt like giving up many times - you've made such progress. It sounds like it's more than sort of working to me! :D Now for your questions!
Yes, he needs his cuddles! :) We usually have cuddles in bed in the morning too.
Yes the last nap of the day at say 5ish shouldn't be too long, maybe 30 -45 mins.
The wind :shock: ...Oh the wind :shock: ....I had just the same problem. Now after cutting loads of things out of my diet (I saw you eat peas - they can be fart makers), I always keep Ruby upright for a while after feeds (I know it's hard to do at night!), also if I feed her when we are laying down she gets really windy, so I raise her body and head when feeding so she is as upright as possible. But ultimately it is just something she has grown out of as her tummy has got a bit bigger, she seems to be able to get it up better.
Give it a little while and soon he probably won't cry at sleeptime, although Tracey says some babies need to have a little cry to get their stress out and relax.
Yes, you are on the right track and soon you will be able to put him down awake and he will settle himself and you won't be spending all that time in the bedroom!
A 45 min or hour nap is fine as long as they wake up happy.
Well done again!
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:D Wow Weee !! You are doing so well!
You've got a great nap/bedtime routine going
You've stuck at it and
You've managed to get Oscar past 45mins. :wink:
That is just brilliant. You are well on the way to independent sleep. You should congratulate yourself and treat yourself to something nice. :P
Just keep going and it will continue to improve. I agree with Onewoman. Don't get too upset at his crying before a sleep, eventually this will probably stop. Remember that you are still there with him, your not just leaving him to cry it out.
With feeding - I cut out night time feeds quite early on, I just made sure that he got all of his calories in during the day instead - about 6-8 feeds. in 12 hours. Of course this began to change with weaning. I'm not sure what others think about this? But it made me feel a whole lot better getting a good nights sleep. Personally I'd cut out the 11 o clock feed if it wakes him up - maybe try to fit it in during the day.
What does everyone else think about this?
Cheryl
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Thanks for all your support and praise :)
Day 4 and I still have questions.....sorry, but really getting down to it now!
The naps during the day - exactly how many should be longer than 45? - I just don't want to force him to over sleep and affect night time. I'm guessing two longish sleeps and one short one? Can someone confirm this? :?:
The dreaded night: Last night, same again, awake every hour or so. I dreamfed him at 10.30, he woke up then and was very upset and hungry I think? I prolonged feeding him until 4am? I don't know what I'm doing here?!! He's very up to give big feeds during the day because he only ever wants one booby - i try to give him more but he's full. He has also woken up for 2 mornings at 6am and seems full of beans. I have gotten him up but he's tired an hour later.
Questions: :?: How do you know if they need that night feed? Or even the dream feed? If i fed him 4 hourly, there's no way he would get 6 - 8 feeds in the day?
The early start - 6 am is a killer for me! What should I do here? Feel mean forcing him back to sleep when he seems pretty awake?! Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't up every hour!
Thanks again - please, please be patient with me - I will stop bugging and monopolising your board soon! :?
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Just to add to my last post - he's not done any 'miracle' naps today. He's woken up at 45 mins for both his two naps. Both times, I have re-settled him and he's gone for another 30 - 45 mins. I guess this is better than nothing? We've tried going in before the 45 min mark but he wakes up just as fully as he does when we're not there to catch it. I guess there's not much else we can do here, maybe this will get better on it's own? He he, wishful thinking.. :wink:
I just want to say a BIG thanks to everyone again - I am nearly done with this and will make more specific posts to the relevant boards next time. If this works, it will save us an expensive trip interstate to a sleep school where they do controlled crying. I have been referred as a last resort :cry: but hopefully, it won't come to that......Thanks again, I know there's HEAPS of posts on here and I am just one of many.
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I wish I could do what you have managed to do Chell and get the feeds in in the day, but she's just not interested in feeding any more than 3 - 4 hours :? So she gets fed at 11 pm and 3 am and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it. Oh well! :lol:
Typically a baby of 4 -6 months needs 5/6 feeds a day of 6 oz (but it's hard to tell when they're b/f how much they have!). Every 4 hours in the day and one/two at night is usual. I have the same prob as you, in that Ruby has a small tummy (I think), as she hardly ever takes more than one boob, although she is starting to have a bit more now. The idea with the 4 hr routine is that they eat more at one sitting, so need less feeds.
I think the hardest thing is working out when to feed at night if they wake up at other times. My general rule is I won't feed if it's been less than 3 hrs and I always try to resettle first before feeding and look for other problems first (like wind). Also I try to minimise the amount she has to eat so that she takes more in the day. Signs of hunger are turning the head and rooting, though to make things more confusing they can do this when tired too! I think that full night's sleep is probably a little way off for us Oscar!
:shock:
As far as naps go on the 4hr routine it's awake for 2hrs then sleep for 1.5 - 2 hrs for the first 2 rounds of EASY then a 30/45 min nap for the 3rd round. It doesn't work out that way for me! She seems to have a good nap in the morning of about 1.5 hrs, then I struggle with the next one and the next. So sometimes its a long nap, a short nap, a long nap. Or sometimes she will have a long nap and 3 short naps. She is staying up 1 3/4 - 2 hours now, but wondering whether to try to go to 2 1/4 so she sleeps better....hmmm. Can only try and see what happens! Oh yes, a normal amount of sleep in 24 hrs for a 4 month old is about 15 hrs.
As for getting up early - lots of babies rise with the sun - unfortunately! We are up between 6-7. I refuse to get up before 6 - I'm not getting into 5 am wake ups. WHen your routine is more settled you may be able to extend bed time and wake up time but you will probably have to live with the early mornings for now. (One advantage is a nice bit of time for yourself in the evening)
You are really welcome for the help :lol: And feel free to ask as many questions as you like :D
Susana
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Thanks Susana! :D
Our babies sound a little similar! Thanks for the advice re the 6am waking, I guess I'll have to live with it, as you say, for a while. I am prould of what he's accomplished in 4 days. If he would only sleep at night I'd be cheering! But, at least we have stopped him falling asleep in our arms, I thought that would never end.
You are so right, when he wakes up sooooo often in the night, it's hard to know when to feed! I do the same as you and offer it around 3am, about 4 hours after dream feed. He doesn't seem to drink much whether it be 4 hours or 2 hours apart! :?
There is something else actually....( :shock: )...we might go 'home' instead in September (instead of going to the sleep clinic) but I am PARANOID about undoing any training we've done up till then. Does holidays effect things? I will try to mirror things as much as possible, I guess that's all i can do? I guess that brings me to my other question, when he starts teething, will all this crumble? Do they need to be brought into the family bed again when they are sick? I'd love to know in advance how to handle this?
That's all.....I don't want to push my luck. :wink:
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Yes, our babies do sound similar - quite sensitive and full of beans! They even both do the sqaure farts! :lol:
So today has gone better? Once you have him falling asleep on his own your night times should improve, as he will be able to resettle himself without you. If he's not eating much at night then he probably doesn't need it and is just using the breast as a pacifier (unless its really hot where you are and he needs a little drink?)
I have decided today to change the bedtime routine a bit, as I always fed her just before bed. I am doing feed, bath, story, bed, so it breaks the link of feed - sleep for bedtime. I am also desperate for a good nights sleep and will be in bed by 8 tonight - hopefully! We had it all sorted, just one feed between 7 & 7, until her growth spurt :shock: Then it all went haywire! One thing I am learning is that it changes almost daily, I am always adjusting things. I guess when we have the 4 hr routine sorted we will have a bit of peace - well until the teething starts!
And you are right to be questioning what happens at holidays and teething. Like you say just try and keep things as normal as possible on holiday. I'm not sure about teething yet, but I would avoid letting your lo sleep with you again. We just had a cold and I was up a lot at night because she had problems with the snot interrupting her sleep, but as much as possible I soothed her in the crib or picked her up to soothe her, but always put her back in the crib. I don't think she would have slept any better in bed with me (in fact when I do fall asleep feeding her she fidgets like mad and neither of us sleep very well).
The good thing is even when things go up the wall, if you always use the same techniques pat/shh and pu/pd and don't feed to sleep, you can get back on track quite quickly. They remember what to do. Since things have been difficult for us - and I have been tearing my hair out at times :shock: - I have been trying to remember the most important thing is to make sure she falls asleep on her own. My first daughter always fell asleep on the breast and used to wake up to 8 times a night, I was a complete wreck and got very depressed and so I am NOT going down that road again!
Keep in touch, I'd love to know how you are getting on! :D
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You are still doing so well - it is fine to have to re-nap Oscar and it is brilliant that you managed to get him to go for another 1/2 hour! You are really achieving a lot. Oscar will get it sooner or later, just carry right on. I had to really work at this with Jacob and re-napped him consistently then it just 'clicked' and he will go for 1 1/2 hours.
Don't worry about 'monopolising the board' ! Its fine, we want to help you get it sorted! (which you will)
Ooopps! gotta go. Will continue later.
Cheryl
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what lovely names your babies have Susana!
Teething hasn't been too bad for us so far, so don't worry about that at the moment. Like Susana said with holidays etc, the main thing is to keep your routine going. It's not so much where you do it, but how you do it. Yes he may be a little unsettled, but he will remember and you'll soon be back on track again.
Cheryl
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Oh yes what else was I going to say? umm, I think Susana is right in saying that Oscar probably doesn't need that night feed, if he's not taking much. I don't think it matters that Oscar only takes one side, I always single side fed and it was fine. You should find that whether you single side feed or feed from both sides, that the amount of milk produced for one feed will be enough to satisfy the baby, unless he is going through a growth spurt, which is natures way of getting the body to produce more milk.
When you said he woke up upset and hungry, was he actually showing signs of hunger? It may be worth remembering S.L.O.W. ie stop - listen - observe - what's up? I know your going to be feeling really tired, but if you take time to check, you'll feel OK about not offering him a feed if he's just waking out of habit.
Does Oscar wake mostly at the same times througout the night?
I know that you are feeding 4 hourly, but it may be worth trying to get an extra feed or two in during the day, or do you think it would be too difficult? I know that Tracy has said somewhere about doing this to try and get them to have all their calories during the day to get them through the night.
Let me know what you think.
Yes I see what you mean Susana about your lo not wanting to feed more often, that must be really tricky. Have you tried gradually delaying the 3/4am feed, so that it gets tagged on to the morning feeds instead? Just a thought.
Cheryl
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Goodmorning (moaning..) We have had another terrible night, he woke up 6 times between 7 pm and 12am, then I lost count, but was up regularly for the rest of it! It's worse than before! At least before this, when he was in our bed, I was soothing him all night but I didn't have to GET up! This is so tiring huh? Pu/pd in the middle of the night - ughhh!
PLEASE tell me the nights get better.....if they don't we might end up at that @#!% sleep school - this is really having a bad effect on my heatlh!
I fed him at 2.45 am, he seemed pretty hungry so I guess he needed it. Maybe he'll be easier to fill up during the day when he starts solids.
Yesterday's p/u, p/ds were a little tougher, he was very hard to get down last night but I will persist! He's not hysterical yet, just really stubborn!
Has anyone else had such dramas with the nights? It's really upsetting me....we don't want to resort to the sleep school.
Susana - you are very brave to have another baby! he he...I am too scared to now, it's much harder than I thought!
Thanks Chell for you advice - I really do listen to all of it! (ps my name is Jane!)
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Okay - naps have been bad today - could it really be that Day 5 regression thingo?! He is harder to put down, waking up after 40 mins and not wanting to go further - I don't know if should persist all day like I did on day one or just accept that he wants short naps today and push it too much? :?
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Hi Jane, Oh what a night you poor thing! I do sympathise. When Jacob wouldn' t take his naps, I just concentrated on 1 or 2 , as I just found it too much to cope with , doing all of them. The other thing I used to do was a combination of pu/pd and pat /sh. So I would p/sh in my arms until he was at the point of falling asleep - eyes shut ,breathing slow then pd, then when he cried pu and start again. You will get there. Is the wind still a problem, is he colicy? These things were problems for Jacob, and things really improved at around 5-6 months.
Catch you later
Lots of hugs
Cheryl
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Hello, hello....well, today has been rather crappy! He's been very hard to put down and even harder to resettle after the 40 min wake up.
The wind still bothers him, but really only at night, I think....the whole 'doing a poo' thing is a drama for him. He's such a light sleeper, really, doing a fart will wake him up! Even when I'm doing the pu/pd and he's just about asleep, the house will creak (you know when the temperature drops in the evening) and BANG! he's awake - I'm in trouble if I have a runny nose because even a sniff will startle him! :shock:
We had a phone call from the sleep centre and we've booked in for September 5th, for a week. I can cancel at the last minute and they know I am trying the BW methods so he's got a month to get better! I know that sounds mean but seriously, my health is suffering and ultimately, so will my relationship with my baby if I don't start getting some sleep as I'm not much fun these days. Unfortunately, the clinic have the cots in a separate room, just off yours, which is not my preference. I like him near me.
So - that's today, Day 5, not very successful!
xx
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Thanks Chell, I like their names too :lol: And as for having another baby after the first one, Ruby wasn't planned (nor was Ella for that matter)! We have a 12 year age gap! :lol: But I am so glad I did have her, even with the difficulties she has brought me such joy :D (I say this as she is shouting and screeching, she is supposed to be having her nap! :roll: Do you have any ideas on this Chell? See has started screeching at sleep times and the 45 minute mark, til I go and settle her.)
I have had a few thoughts for you Jane, especially after reading your last post. He really should be getting the hang of it by now. I'm wondering if you are letting him do the mantra cry on his own? This is a kind of shouting, but is not real crying. With Ruby it's a shout anyway, but your lo may have a different kind of mantra cry. It's important to leave them alone when they do this and only go to them when it is a proper cry.
The other thing is, does your lo like to sleep in the pushchair or car? To make things easier on you, you could take him for a walk for one of his naps and it could help him get a better sleep so the sleep training is a little easier as he won't be so exhausted and over tired. I agree with Chell and just concentrate on extending a couple of naps - you must be frazzled.
I have pulled this off my wall and thought it might help. I have it written up, so I remember what to do.
1. WIND DOWN - shut curtains
- swaddle
- sit/cuddle
- shh/pat if cranky until nice and relaxed (eyes closing
for you) and put down
- if fighting it, arching, fidgeting etc. put down
Leave the room (or go hide out in the room where he can't see you)
If he starts to cry (not a mantra cry) then:
2. PICK UP/PUT DOWN
- try to settle in crib with shh/pat (give it a good go e.g.
3/4 minutes)
- pick up if crying
- hold him until crying stops and he is relaxed and
breathing deeply or shh/pat if he can't settle, again
until he is relaxed (should be no more than 5 mins and
don't hold him beyond his being calm and relaxed)
- put down
- (if arching or fidgeting put down at once)
- leave a hand on him for a little while
- move away as he closes his eyes
3. REPEAT IF NECESSARY
You might have some other bits in there like talking to him quietly.
Another thing that crossed my mind is are you and your man both there when you are doing it? It may distract him if you are. It might be better to take turns doing a nap each and decide on one of you doing the night and then swap the next night.
If he is a very sensitive baby, then is it dark enough and is his mattress nice and comfy? Also, as you don't swaddle and use a grobag, could you use a light sheet to tuck him in tight so he doesn't wake himself up with his arms and legs moving about?
Big Hug to you Jane, well done for keeping going :D I'll check back later to see how things are going.
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Thanks Susana....(I panicked when you wrote he should be getting the hang of it now...doesn't it take longer with some babies?!! :?
I'm not doing things exactly as you wrote....I am having a wind down, we cuddle to some slow music, it calms him down but I don't wait until he's sleepy, just quiet, I could be holding him for 20 mins if I wait till he's sleepy? Then I put him in his sleeping bag, have a brief cuddle then say "okay, it's time to sleep" and put him down.
He starts grizzling as soon as I put him in the sleeping bag, he knows what's to follow I guess. I put him down awake and he starts crying right away, not a mantra cry an angry cry and he starts rolling over on to his back (we put him on his side to sleep) and arching and getting upset. I pick him up and he's calm very quickly then I put him down again. I put him down as soon as he's quiet, literally straight away - should I hold him for longer? The post by JenApple on P/U P/D board says to put him down immediately?! He gets upset and fights me. Eventually we get him down but today it's taken a good 20 mins to do so, one session was 30 mins.
He's also always waking up at 40 mins, except for that one miracle sleep!
What am I doing wrong? I can see by your post that I'm not leaving the room - I'm very confused....I thought once they were calm in the cot we sshhpatted them until they were asleep, and then some more to make sure they get over that 20 min drift off sleep?
Please help me!? I want to do this right....
:(
So.....do we leave them when they close their eyes? I know that Oscar will start crying if I don't stay until he's very asleep?
Does he need to be very sleepy before he goes in at first? I can't get my baby sleepy unless I rock/walk him around for ages and this is what I find hard because it's physically so tiring?!
Sorry, feeling discouraged again!
My husband and I take turns - I totally agree it's too much if we're both in there.
I have a wrap that I've placed over his bum and tucked in at the sides of the mattress so it's like a firm hand on him.
Please help...... :cry:
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Hi Jane, sorry to hear things are still difficult, I'd say this is to be expected and I think sorting it is going to take a bit of time. You have to remember that so far, for the majority of Oscars life he has learnt to go to sleep in a different way. This is all completely new and alien to him. He's been used to sleeping with you and he is objecting to this, but don't feel bad -you aren't rejecting him, because you're still there.
1.On the 9th when he woke 6 times between 7 & 12am did you feed him?
2.Are you able to try to put an extra feed in during the day?
3. Have you tried swaddling?
I remember you saying that you try to keep the house quiet so as not to disturb him. I quite understand, but it is probably best not to keep things too quiet else it could create different problems - like you said today about just getting him off and then waking cos someone made a noise.
Good idea about the mantra cry. Don't go in immeadiately yuo here him squeek. Wait until he's really saying he needs you.
If he starts grizzling as soon as you put him in his bag (jacob used to do this), I'd say make sure he is calm not crying before you put him in his cot.
Back arching can be a sign of tiredness/overtiredness. This may be why it is so tough for you right now. You really need to observe and know his cues for tiredness and catch him just before.
I want ot carry on .lots more to say, but going to have to go for now. Will talk to you soon.
Cherylxx
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Oops, back again!!
See page 86 of baby whisperer for signs of tiredness - did you get your book? o/tiredness includes - arms flailing, cry getting louder and louder, kicking legs, or grabbing ears, scratching face. The cry can be misinterpreted as hunger.
It might be worth putting him into his bag, then having wind down, so yuo don't have to disturb him again.
I like your routine Susana. Jane, I'd say this is a good one to follow.
It's fine to put him down immeadiately he is calm. I think this is the official way of doing it. I found that holding him to the point of him becoming sleepy worked better for me, because I was comfortable with it, but it probably took a bit longer than just putting him down immeadiately.
Gotta go again. I think you will do it if you keep going and dont give up. Jacob would imprrove and regress.
Cherylx
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Oh ! Sorry Jane, I didn't mean to get you worried :? It just concerned me that you weren't getting at least a few hours sleep from him a night. Is he waking up every 40 minutes? My heart goes out to you :)
The problem is shh/pat and pu/pd go together and different people do it different ways. I have re-read the book to see what it says and am copying this out pretty much literally.
Shh/pat is this:
winddown, put in bed, if he is calm leave him to settle himself. If he cries shh/pat him in bed until he is calm and drifting off(at which point you can slow the shh/pat, to the point where you just leave a hand on him) or if really unsettled keep shh/patting. If he usually has a jolt 10 minutes after falling asleep and wakes up, shh/pat through this. The point is to, as much as possible, keep him in the crib and to let his eyes shut on his own with you doing as little as possible. If he doesn't settle in the crib pick him up and shh/pat til calm then put down again. Repeat if necessary.
Pick up/Put down is this:.
Do the wind down, put baby in the cot.
When the child cries, go to him. First try to comfort him in bed with gentle words and a hand on his back, up tp 6 months old you can do shh/pat. If he doesn't stop crying pick him up. Put him down the second he stops crying. Even if he cries as you lay him down, put him down fully. If still crying pick him up.If he is arching put him down immediately - never fight a crying child. If your baby is burrowing into the matress, turning her head from one side to the other, don't pick up right away, instead maintain contact by putting a hand on him, tell him it's just sleep time. See if he can start to settle himself, he may lapse into a mantra cry. Just talk to him softly, keep a hand on him or hold his hand. Continue until he is calm and falls asleep. Your hand on him is reassurance, don't tap, don't shh and don't leave the room until you see him drop into a deep sleep.
How to adapt pu/pd for young babies.
Try to comfort in his cot. If you can't pick him up hold him until he stops crying but no more than 4/5 minutes. Don't keep holding him if he is fighting you. Put him down. Try shh/pat to calm him in the cot. If it doesn't work pick him up again. Continue. (THis is what I do pretty much)
The mantra cry.
It's an odd burst of a cry which most babies do as they are settling themselves down. We don't pick up with a mantra cry, instead we hold back to see if the child can settle himself. We do pick up with a genuine cry. The success of pu/pd depends in part on knowing the difference between a mantra cry and a genuine cry. The mantra goes waa...waa...waa the pitch and tone is the same throughout. A genuine cry usually escalates in volume.
So you see, the woman who told you to shh/pat to sleep after pick up/put down may have developed that for her child and it may have worked....but you are still his prop as you are there when he actually falls asleep and he will need you there when he wakes up or stirs at 40 minutes.
Now don't get too stressed out! Please. I didn't do it completely right at first, but Ruby was forgiving and I'm sure Oscar will be too. You have done most of it right, so are more than half way there. You just need to tweak your method a little bit.
I hope this helps...as it has taken ages for me to write it out! But I don't mind one bit. Hope tonight is better, xxx
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Thanks Cheryl - I feed him at 10 or 11 pm, depends on when I fed him before putting him down. Then I feed him at 2 or 3am.
He woke up every hour last night again - this morning I fed him at 6am and we fell asleep in bed till 7.30! Oops....
I'm very confused about the patting and shushing - please can you clarify what to do here?
Do you stay with them patting them to sleep or do you leave the room while they are awake?
Tracy's book has not arrived yet......thanks........
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Thanks Susana - I have just had another trying session and I started to cry and yelled at my husband that I can't do it anymore. I went in at 40 mins to see what he was doing (this is the second nap of the day, the first one he only got 45 mins because he would not go down again after that) and he was just looking at the side of the cot, quietly. For 5 mins he did this, then started to get cranky, I tried to shh him and pat him but he got cranky and started getting hysterical again and REALLY awake. I gave up. It just doesn't seem to be working for us. Maybe he is one of these babies who won't ever go past that 45 min nap mark. How do you know this? It's just all too damn (sorry!) hard.
I do appreciate your long response - I really do. I'm just not coping anymore.
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Me again :? I've read and re-read all my information and I still don't get it. REALLY simply....where am I going wrong with putting him down? Putting all the other factors aside......can you pretty please read this and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Put him in cot, say 'it's time to sleep etc'.
Scenario A (rare): He doesn't cry when I put him down. Do I then WALK away, leaving him totally awake or do I shhh pat him to sleep and stay until he's asleep?
Scenario B: He cries. I would shh pat him until he gets a real cry going then pick him up, he usually calms instantly, so I put him down straight away, he cries, I try to shh pat but will end up picking him up and putting him down several times. Eventually, he will settle down and not cry when I put him down but I CONTINUE to shhh pat until he falls asleep and stay there until he's in a deep sleep, then leave.
What are doing wrong here? I'm so sorry to be a pain. :oops:
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I'm sorry things are not going well. I hope I can clarify.
You are trying to teach independent sleep, so that he doesn't need you to fall asleep or resettle when he wakes or rouses. So he needs to be allowed to fall asleep on his own, though you may help him settle and relax the rest is up to him.
If you put his down and he is quiet, move away. Let him try to soothe himself off to sleep. He might fidget, toss and turn, yelp a little, slam his legs down, do the mantra cry. Through all this you leave him alone - it is his baby way of trying to soothe himself. The only time you go to him is when he does a genuine cry, when he is saying Mum/Dad I really need your help to settle.
When he does the genuine cry. Go to him straight away. Try to settle him in the cot with soft words, shh/pat or just a hand on him - whatever you feel works best for him. If still crying, pick him up, wait for him to stop crying, (I wait until they are relaxed) then put down again. WHen you have done this a few times and they are quiet. Say night night and leave. (Hide in the room) wait, listen and watch. He might do the things I mentioned above, like arching or something like that. Leave him and only go to him if he does the real cry (he may lay fidgeting for 20 minutes or longer and that's fine). This way he will learn to fall asleep on his own, without any help which is your goal. Shh/patting to sleep is for much younger babies. And I feel strongly than shh/patting him to sleep is hindering your progress.
I'm sure if you stop the shh/patting to sleep he will start sleeping a lot more!
Take care, xxx
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I do see where you are confused. There are two ways of doing it. One is to p/s until they are asleep. The other is to allow them to settle themselves. If Oscar is in his cot quietly and happy to be there, then just leave him to it. Only go back in when he is really crying, then start pu/pd.
You have made progress. It may feel like forever, but it has really only been a few days. The main thing is to be consistent and persevere. I know this is tough, when you are just learning the methods but you can do it.
Cheryl
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Thanks ladies....I understand a little better now. Just not sure if I have the energy to try the new way of leaving him alone - feel like we'll be back at day 1! xxxxxx Will post if I have any more success...
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Sorry, just realised you deserve a better response - Susana - you have explained it great in your last post - i finally get it.
Mark and I have been accepted into the residential clinic for a 4 day stay in the 2nd week of September. I think it's important we go, I am really tired now and - dare I say it - possibly PND. I spoketo a nurse yesterday and she said they are more for attachment parenting and won't do control crying if I don't want them to and will try to find a resolution that's best for me and Oscar. I think I need someone to babysit me for a few days and watch everything I do.
I think I will try to do the self-settle thing only occasionally, that is, if I see he's super-tired and will not fuss too much. I won't push it because I think it's mean to re-train him now, and then in a few weeks, make him learn new things again in a strange place.
I will let you know if I have any success, either way - BIG hugs and thanks for your support so far......xxx
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Hi Jane, Yes I think that is a really good idea to try to get someone to babysit for you. Do you have anyone to do this?
When I said leave him to settle on his own, i only meant when he is quiet and happy to be there, not if he is crying because he needs you.
Have you been to see your Doctor about feeling depressed? I would really recommend it, they may be able to prescribe something just for a short while and even have someone to come and offer you some support. I'm not sure how the system works over there.
That sounds good - what the nurse said about not having to do controlled crying. Seems like they are more person (baby) centred than I thought.
Please let us know how things go.
Cherylxxxx
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Hi Cheryl, I am keeping a check on my mental state - I know when/if the time comes that I need help from my GP, at this point, I know that my spirits would lift dramatically if I can get Oscar to sleep etc
I can see clearly now that we have done the wrong thing with Oscar in the last 8 days - that is, we've patted him to sleep and he's not learnt to go to sleep independently at all. For some reason, even that method is going down the toilet too and we are having big battles with him again, like Day 1. He is now crying as soon as we enter 'the room'! I could turn back time and start again but like I said before, I'm not sure it's fair on him to try again with it all.
I will just try to get through the next few weeks I guess!
Tracy's book arrived today - maybe I'll use it IF I have another baby (oh please not another spirited/touchy baby :roll: )
If you like, I will let you know how we go in September....
xxx
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Morning :) I'm sorry you are feeling so down. No one ever tells you how truly hard it is to have a new baby. Some try, but it's not until you are in it that you fully realise. I remember when I had Ella feeling such a failure - all I wanted was to be a good Mum and make her happy, but I didn't know what I was doing (I was only 19). She never slept well and as exhaustion set in, I also got very depressed. I also used to interpret her cries as something I was doing wrong which was not necesarily the case. I didn't know about what overtired and overstimulated babies do, which is scream their little heads off!
I'm glad you are getting some help and I do hope they help you sort things out at the sleep clinic. I wish I had had that opportunity!
Just to let you know I think you have done great! You may not have got Oscar sleeping through yet, but you have taught him a good wind down ritual (I think yours is lovely by the way), and which can only be of benefit to him and you have taught him that his cot is for sleeping in. You got 66% there! When I messed up with Ruby, I had a few days off to recover, get as much sleep as possible then tried again and it was much quicker. Maybe you will feel stronger in a few days or even more desperate for sleep, which was definitely my motivator!
Just to let you know, if Ruby is over tired she cries when I take her upstairs, it doesn't mean she's upset about going to bed, just that she is so damned tired she needs a cry. And we get like that to don't we? I know I do.
Hope you get a solution soon :D Take care (((((HUGS))))))
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Thank you, you have made me feel a little brighter.....will hopefully post a happier story soon! :)
Lucky we live in different countries....you know I'd be offering you lots of money to come to my house and do it with me!
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Yes, please do let us know how you gt on.
Lots of love
Cherylxx
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I wish I could come and help :D It's so hard to try and explain things on here rather than face to face. If you want to forget about the sleep training for now and just talk about how you are feeling that's fine, I can still be here for some support if you want it:D
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Hello, Oscar's mum!
I've read through (and only skimmed some parts) this thread to see if there were any other thoughts I could give. The other posters have given you wonderful information and support and I can't add much more than what they've already said, but.....
There were a few things you've said that have jumped ouy at me. Basically, I wonder about his wind, the crying out of character, inability to settle for longer periods of time....have you talked to a doctor about any of your issues? And peanut butter and chocolate made my lo extremely gassy when he was tiny...is there anything else you could be eating that might be causing his problems. Also, I saw you mention giving him corn. I've read that corn shouldn't be given to a baby younger than 18 months because it can be indigestible. These may be shots in the dark, but it seems he has some kind of digestive problem. I would definitely talk to your doc about it to see if he can give you any insight you haven't already thought about.
Good luck to you! It sounds like things are getting better?? {{{HUGS}}}
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Thanks Alli (and everyone for your support). I do eat peanut butter from time to time so I can cut that out. I don't feed him corn, or anything but booby milk! I eat corn, maybe that's what I was saying!? I've been to the GP twice and the clinic nurses - they all give me that sympathetic smile and say 'he'll grow out of it'. Hopefully he will!
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Back again - thought I would share this funny story as most of my posts have been :cry: .
Today, Oscar went down for his afternoon nap with the usual p/u p/d fight, then woke at 40 mins, so I did the re-settling which took longer than it did to put him down in the first instance and more hysteria..etc. Anyway, 40 mins later, as predicted, he woke up. I thought "hmmm, I'm going to let you cry for a minute (he was NOT hysterical, just the usual yelling 'i'm up' cry). Anyway, there was quiet after about 30 seconds, then it started up again so I went into the room and saw him closing his eyes again - quiet. I watched, and to my delight, he went back to sleep for another 45 mins. I actually had to wake him because it was well past his feed time. I decided to take a photo, knowing the flash would wake him! I happened to catch him as he smiled in his sleep! Cheeky bugger!
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Jane, wow! that is amazing! So you are doing ok after all.
Beautiful piccy. Impressed with your computer skills! I've been fiddling around for ages trying to get a piccy on.
cherylxx
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yes I know what you're thinking- I shouldn't have let him go to sleep on me!!!
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Hi Cheryl - I didn't get too excited because he has these sleepy afternoons once every 6 weeks or so! Last night and this morning has been hard again. My husband and I have decided just to do our best for the next 3 weeks, not push anything with him and only do pu/pd for getting him to sleep and as far as extending past the 40 mins - only when he really, really needs more sleep, like the afternoon nap. I hope the inconsistency doesn't cause problems (i think you or someone said you can concentrate on one nap for now anyway?....)
I think falling asleep on Mum is beautiful - I certainly wasn't thinking anything negative!
It took me a long time to put the photo on, and I only wanted to put a side version like you have, that's what I thought I was doing! You're the clever one with your rosey border!
xx
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That sounds ok. I know you are just going to go with it at the moment, but one thing which I was wondering, was how quickley you go to him when he cries. It's just that in your last message you said that you left him for a short while as he wasn't really crying and he got himself back off. Maybe worth trying this again.
Cherylxx
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Yep, we did that, this morning, and he didn't sound like it was going to let up. For his afternoon nap though (it took a long time to put him down, really upset as usual!) we heard him stir at 40 then he slept for almost 2 hours (in total). Brilliant for him. Not getting my hopes up though as the night was awful again (he woke up 10.30, 12.30, 2.00 (fed him), 4.30 (wanted to PLAY!? grrr), and 6.00) and he was hysterical today putting him down. Anyway, we were really pleased he had a decent nap today. :roll:
I'm finding the 4 hour thing hard to follow too, he's always due just before or during a nap!? If I feed him before a nap, I always leave it 10 mins or so before putting him down. I swear sometimes that the booby is the only thing that calms him down when he's wired up.
We'll definitely keep doing the 'wait a couple of minutes and see' thing when he wakes up! xx
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....I only wanted to put a side version like you have, that's what I thought I was doing.....
If you mean having a picture under your name, it's called an avatar. You can put it on by going into your 'profile' and uploading it there, at the bottom of the screen in the Avatar Control Panel. Information about picture and file size are there. If you continue to have a problem and would prefer, then I can do it for you.
HTH
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Just wondering Jane - did you ever try controlled crying at all / (cry it out?) and does Oscar ever play happily in his cot when youre not there?
Cheryl
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Hi Cheryl - that is funny that you ask that...
No, I've never done controlled crying, at this point (and I know that things change the more desperate you become) I'm opposed to it, that is I'm not into the idea at all. I know that there are degrees of it, like some centres here advocate, 3 mins crying (you out the room), 3 minutes hands-on settling, and so on. But I would NEVER let him cry himself to sleep (that's just me, I know it suits some Mums). I've heard of some bubs crying for 30 minutes or so...alone, and that makes me sad to hear. But, better be careful here, don't want to offend anyone.
The reason it's funny you asked is because today he got up at 5.50am. I tried to leave him there for as long as I could be he got cranky so I got him up at 6am, fed him, then asked my husband to take him out so I could get an hour's kip. Anyway, they came back in at 7.30, Oscar was nodding off on Mark's shoulder, so he put him down and he closed his eyes and went to sleep (ha ha...yeah right!), anyway, Mark left and I stayed trying to get some more sleep. Sure enough, 5 or so minutes later, Oscar starts squirming and grunting and I know he's going to wake up. He does this for about 10 mins then does a big poo! I still pretend to be asleep (he hasn't seen me yet) and he wakes up, grizzles, then lies there for about 20 minutes, chatting and looking his fingers etc. He started to get bored, then whinge, then cry so I picked him up. He's still up now, happy and not very tired-looking.
So.........a long answer to your question! Sorry!
Another bad night....
Bed at 8.00pm (late because we had an evil afternoon session that went on for an hour or so)
Woke up at 9.00pm, back to sleep 9.30
I woke him up at 10.30pm for dream feed, back to sleep at 11.15pm (I don't know why these are called dream feeds for breast fed babies as he wakes as soon as I pick him up, then he needs a nappy change, then I need to burp him so the whole process takes ages!)
Then he woke at 2.30, I fed him (i always feed him once during the night)
Then he woke at 4.00am - and wanted to PLAY again - I had to do pu/pd for about about 20 minutes. Sleep at 4.40am
Awake at 6.00. Yay! What a lovely night....not!
Why do you ask about controlled crying? xx
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I didn't read all of the posts, so I'll ask, but if you've already tried it, disregard.
Anyway, when my boy was having trouble getting past 40 minute naps here is what I did...a minor version of wake to sleep...at 30 minutes I went in and watched him to see why he was waking up at 40 minute. There was a definite jerk at 40 minutes and he'd wake. I then decided to put a hand on him to calm him at that point. I did it for 3 or 4 days and it really worked. Now he still has 40 minute naps often, but he sleeps 1-1.5 hours for the most part. He is still getting up 2-3 times a night, wants to play sometimes too...I nurse him back to sleep. Sometimes he still plays for an hour....rrrrrrr...
I tried going in at 30 minutes and rousing him-not waking-just rousing-but that didn't work. He never really came out of it. If it helps you to know you are not alone, we are still only getting 3-4 hour stretches through the night, and he eats every three hours. I can't get him to go four hours without a feed. He is 21 weeks tomorrow.
All the best to you.
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Thanks for that 'opp2'.....It does feel like you are alone sometimes! I have done what you suggested, as soon as he does that little jerk, I've placed my hand on him and it sort of 'delayed' the wake up but he ended up waking up anyway!! I still try it now and then but when he wants to wake, he'll wake. I wouldn't mind some 40 minute sleeps, like you say, as long as a few are also 1.5 hours or more. It's hard to know when to persist with re-settling him after a 40 min kip or when to accept he's had enough. I have a feeling (also from reading Tracy's book) that I should try for a longer afternoon nap (I'm pretty sure he's Spirited/Touchy) and let the rest be short. It's VERY hard to read his tired signs, he's happy to be up and looks excited all the time, overtired or not!
I was saying to my husband, the nights would be bearable if I could rest during the day but his short naps are very tiring, because they are short, but also because it takes sooooo long and so many tears to even get them!
I know other people are in the same boat, but I get so envious at those that aren't and have lovely sleeping babies, not that I would swap him.....(I'm not making sense now so I'll sign off......!)
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Loved your photos :D :D Oscar is such a cutie, and the picture of you and your lo, Cheryl, is lovely :P
It sounds like things are getting better for you Jane! A few long naps and sleeping for more than 40 minutes at a time at night - well done!
Spirited/touchy types are a challenge aren't they!! Ruby is the same. Developmentally she just doesn't stop, she is so bright and such a quick learner. She has been rolling over for 4 weeks and now is trying sooo hard to crawl, she ends up doing a kind of commando crawl along the floor :lol: She is also trying constantly to sit up, and doing these kind of stomach crunches - she will have a six pack soon! :lol: Just think what wonderful adults they will be :D (we just need the patience and strength to get them there :shock: )
One thing I've found that really helps, is just to keep her as calm as possible - especially when she has had a short nap. Bob whooped her up yesterday afternoon (they both had a great time :) ) and it took ages to settle her down for bed last night. I have noticed even having the tv on too much overstimulates her. It's hard to keep a balance of activity/quiet time.
Have you tried one drop of lavender or chamomille oil in the bath at night and/or baby massage, I think it helps a little.
Susana xxx
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Thanks Susana - we think he's divine looking!
Hey - Ruby is younger than Oscar and she's rolling over? Wow! He's only just starting to do that! I know what you mean re the stomach crunches - I thought he was trying to do a poo at first! :D
Yep - Oscar gets really, really excited and is even harder to put down after a good giggle session. Pretty much everything excites him though, bath time exciting, books excite him, just looking at him excites him and brings on smiles and giggles. I hate to say it, but booby works best.
We are still going to the sleep centre in September, if nothing else, maybe they can help me read his tired signs better. It will be nice (i think :? ) to be with other Mums who are finding it all a bit tough!
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oh pig, just lost my message!!! Lets try again!!!!
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Hi Jane trying to remember what I just typed! I've got 5mins!
The reason I asked about CIO is that often bubs who have been exposed to this method even once or twice can associate their cot with fear. So just wanted to check whether this was getting in the way of any progress, but you say not.
I'd really recommend Tracys last book, once you've had chance to read the first! There is lots in it about pu/pd in detail. Also about the reasons it might not work. Think there is a sticky on this somewhere on one of the sleep boards. Tracy also says that they can regress on day 5 and I think that this is what may have happened with Oscar. Touchies, spirited and grumpies can take longer to sort .
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And Jane - the fact that it only took you 20mins of pu/pd is brilliant - I remember you saying it took 1.5 hours a while back... Don't you think this is progress? Becauses I do
Cherylxx
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oh, man. this is the hardest time. I can feel your pain.
I saw that there are some videos to accompany Tracey's books on the BW website- I haven't seen them, but maybe they would help show you what to do since reading and comprehending is so hard to do when you are sleep deprived.
Maybe somone else has seen them and would know if they would be helpful?
Take care!
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oh, man. this is the hardest time. I can feel your pain.
I saw that there are some videos to accompany Tracey's books on the BW website- I haven't seen them, but maybe they would help show you what to do since reading and comprehending is so hard to do when you are sleep deprived.
Maybe somone else has seen them and would know if they would be helpful?
Take care!
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Thanks Cheryl - I hope he doesn't have fear of the cot?! We've never let him cry alone?
I know 20 minutes is an improvement, but I guess it feels like there's something wrong about having to have such a fight every time. And there are sometimes still where it takes an hour. I know we've made some progress, just not what I would have liked and I still dread sleep time and am not getting enough sleep myself but we are very grateful not to have to hold him in our arms for sleeps!
This morning, he woke up at 4am again, but I was able to calm him in his cot, but he woke up at 5.30 and I thought 'no, I'm not getting up this early!' so I calmed him in his cot but it took 30 mins and wasn't working so at 6am, I got him up, fed him in my bed and he we fell asleep until 8.15am! We are all over the place huh?!
I thought I had bought her latest book? It was re-printed in January? But I'm sure now......?
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Thanks Valerie - I am definitely a VISUAL person!! A video might be handy, but at this stage I've spent enough $$ on things so it might have to wait.
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Hi, pu/pd is hard work! its not easy & its not unusual to do it 100 times or more. But it does need consistency. I do think you have made a lot of progress - Imean you managed to calm him in his cot!? that is great!
The last book has a cream cover and whole chapter on pu/pd. printed 2005.
Cheryl
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Okay, just put Oscar down for his 3rd nap today (it's 3.20pm here), he's had two naps so far, both only 35 mins each! Problem is, he woke up smiling from both and I find it nearly impossible to get him back to sleep when he's wide awake and not grizzly. Anyway....will try for a longer nap this time.
Re the book - bit confused here.....what exactly is Tracy's 'last' book. The book I have now, The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems, says it was published in 2005, but the cover doesn't look like the one on the homepage of this website? It has a little boy baby on the front with denim overalls and a denim cap. :?
Also - I'm starting to struggle with Oscar's wind-down. Can anyone share with me their wind-down for a Spirited baby. He really is very, very hard to get calm. My current method, putting on the soft music and sort of slow dancing with him against my chest, really takes a very long time, 20 mins or so and is physically, very tiring, and not always very effective and it's almost what we were doing in the first place, the only difference is we put him in the cot when he's sleepy, instead of keeping him in our arms. I suspect there's not much else I can do as just lying down with him excites him (even looking at him makes him smile and get excited) but if anyone has a 'secret' - I'd love to hear it.
xx
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He just woke up after 20 mins. Took me 30 to get him to sleep again. I really feel he's going backwards again. :(
I'm really beginning to feel like I'll just have to live with it - whatever the reason is he won't sleep, I don't think I can fix it. I know that's very negative but there must be some babies out there who didn't respond to these methods. Maybe he is hyperactive after all.
Sorry ladies....I think it's time to end this post as I'm just wasting peoples time now..... :oops:
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oh, Jane, you're not wasting my time. Yes you have the right book. Have you been able to read the chapter on pu/pd? I think because you've always slept with him the problem is a bit ingrained. If he is awake and happy and not tired that its ok to leave him be.
Well it sounds as though you may have made your mind up. Its just really difficult not being face to face. Wish I could help more.
Cherylxx
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Awwwww, honey. Don't despair. It can feel so desperate and hopeless, but it's not! It takes once to make a bad habit and forever to unlearn, that's the nature of things, but change will happen. Your baby wants to sleep, he really does! He doesn't know how to do it right now. And don't get hung up on one method and one book. Take a few suggesstions and do them religiously for a week and something WILL get better. Make your expectations small. If you focus on bedtime for the first week, that's all you have to worry about. Let the other naps happen in the stroller, in your arms, whatever. Gain a little confidence and then tackle each nap time at your pace. Your baby needs you sane, so however you do things that make you feel more calm, will make him feel more calm.
I hated when people said this to me- because "ah, duh, if I could, I would." But- can anyone relieve you a little bit? SOunds like a crisis over there, maybe you need fresh air or a mental break. It is so important that you feel ok. It is so hard to do that when you're not getting any sleep and when an overtired babe is taxing every bit of patience that you have. (I know!)
Don't give up! He's not hyperactive. It's more likely that he is super overtired. It might be worth it to get that sleep help you had written about before. If the BW methods don't work, it's ok to do what does work for you! It might help to have one person check in with you and help give you a plan to meet your individual needs. That's what I got out of Tracey's books. Yes- it's all about learning to understand your baby's language, but it is also about being as healthy as you can be to be ABLE to understand your baby. Even though he is a bundle of needs, you really have to come first. There's a southern saying taht goes, "AInt Momma happy, aint nobody happy." And that's the truth.
I hope you are still checking the replies to your posts. I know it's hard when it seems like there is no good news to report, but we all care about you because we've been there. Keep the updates coming if you have the energy.
My thoughts are with you!
((((HUGS))))) :)
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Hi
My baby was really difficult for the first few weeks too. He just didn't seem to be tired! He could scream for hours. Then, even at times when I knew he was exhausted, he still wouldn't sleep. The only way he would sleep was if i jiggled him for ages and then would try to sneak him into his crib.
I don't know if anyone else has suggested this, and i know its not seen as the 'right thing', but i decided to give up breast feeding and put him on the bottle. he seemed to be fuller and more satisfied and a routine seemed more achievable.
Also, are you sure Oscar only has a 'sleep' problem. I realised my baby was suffering with acid indigestion and this was the cause of his constant crying. I now prop him up whenever possible, especially after feeding. even his crib is raised at the head end so he sleeps on a slope. this has really helped, and he has medication too.
Don't give up. I know its tough. i thought i was going to crack up or throw my baby out of the window. It will get better.
Good luck
Netty x
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As far as wind downs go, I rock my Katie in a rocking chair facing outwards so she can't see my face. I sing a little song while we do this. Sometimes if she's more wound up, we sing a couple of songs! She's a bit spirited herself, but doesn't sound nearly as challenging as your DS. Best of luck - keep it all in perspective - they're only babies once!
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Cheryl - thanks, as always, you're very kind and helpful!
Thank you Valerie, I am still checking the posts, obsessed I guess! I know what you are saying about Mum needing to be okay. I thought I was but slowly and surely, it's getting me down. My health is really suffering too, which doesn't help. Last night I was feeling so bad and was desperate for some sleep, but he woke up so much and I was up most of the night re-settling him. I cried most of it too, I know.......not good for him. It's hard to have perspective when you're so tired! Poor little Oscar, I know it's not his fault! I don't know what to do about the nights, other than using pu/pd to keep resettling him, how to stop him from waking...'dunno' and honestly, too scared to try a new 'method' because it's the continuous disappointments that make me so upset! x
Thanks Erin - I don't think he's got reflux, I did look into that at one point - but it didn't really fit? He really loves playing on his back, so that throws it out a bit I think? Just in case, we do elevate his cot. Believe me, I've looked into every possibility! He doesn't scream that much, only when he's fed up with me trying to put him to sleep. He wakes up and grizzles mostly.
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Oops - told you I'm sleep deprived! :oops:
Erin - ignore the reflux comments they were for Netty! I love your rocking chair idea - tempted to buy one. Not sure if he'll take to it though, he squirms and fights if you try to settle him sitting down - he likes to be in the air?! Still, the rocking might work?
Netty - I know changing to formula works for some bubs but for me, I'd rather stick with booby because it's the one thing that is 'easy', I don't think i could cope with the extra work of bottles! Besides, it's a big gamble for me I guess, if it doesn't improve his sleep, I've lost that one thing that I enjoy so much (i know this is personal preference etc). He is in the 97th percentile for weight and height so he's getting enough milk and most likely not hungry!
xx :roll:
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Hi Jane :D Sorry I haven't posted for a few days - I have been having my own struggles and feeling pretty down too. I am also unwell, which makes being mummy even harder than normal!
Anyhow, I've been thinking about your question about the wind down for a spirited baby and it made me think about when I was first doing EASY with Ruby. The wind down is important, but what is equally important is what is going on in activity time.
I remember I had to keep her really calm, (I know I said this before, but here is more detail), as she was sooooo overtired and overstimulated. Over a week or so I didn't give her any toys and didn't play with her very much (and didn't let anyone else either!). I would have a litte play with her when she woke from a nap. One thing that calms her is being outside, so I would sit outside with her in her chair and read, giving her the odd smile and a bit of rocking or we would have a little chat. Another thing that calms her is walks in the pushchair, but she has to be laying down, rather than sitting up, and not looking at too much stuff (which overstimulates her). Apart from those things, I brought her round the house with me while I did the housework (in her chair again). This seemed to keep her interested but kept her relaxed. I would give her smiles and a kiss now and again. I also had the tv off or on with low volume which helped a lot.
Over the first few days as she started to calm down, I would sit with her on my lap (her facing outwards) for long periods. Sometimes I would swing my legs gently side to side, or jiggle my knees a bit if she got fidgetty. I would do this for a good 20/30 minutes before nap time. I really enjoyed having all this cuddle time with her! :D
Also, as she generally started to relax, when I took her for a nap or bedtime, I gradually started to sit down while holding her. She liked me standing up too! I hold her to my chest by the way. If she started wriggling when I sat down, I would get up for a minute, then sit down again and keep doing that, trying to sit for longer each time. Also, I only did the patting when we sat. After a while she just got used to sitting down with me holding her, but it did take days. My back was so relieved!
I think if Oscar is more relaxed while he is awake, the normal wind down will be fine though he might need a good 20 mintues of it. (Shut curtains (I have it really dark), swaddle/put in grobag, sit quietly/do shh pat, put down). I hardly talk to Ruby when we go for sleepy time, and if I do it is very quietly. I find calming her physically with strokes and pats works better for her.
How close are you to getting Oscar going to sleep on his own? Does he just pass out when you do pu/pd for a while?
Let me know what you think :D
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Hi Susana - I'm sorry you are not feeling too great. I hope it has passed? If you wish to chat - please do - I'm usually better at other people's problems than my own...
I like what you wrote, I will try it. Although he seems to be getting bored with our activity as it is. He wouldn't go under his gym mat a second time today, it's like he knew he'd already done that in the morning. I will definitely try your techniques.
He is all over the place with sleep, sometimes, he's pretty easy to put down and closes his eyes with minimal fuss, then there's other times when it's an hour-long affair and he does eventually just flake. 9 times out of 10, he wakes up after 40 mins for naps, I think he's past that point on his own about 4 times in a fortnight?
On another note - and I'm embarrassed to share this with people but feel I should. I had a terrible fright - well, me and Oscar actually. He fell off his change table on to our tiled floor. I NEVER thought this would happen to my baby - but it did. He was strapped in but pushed off with his feet and fell off the end, not the sides. I had turned my back for a second, literally, heard a thud, turned around and saw my beautiful boy on the ground on his belly. He cried instantly and all I could do was hold him until his cries came down. I was too scared to look at him. It was the worst thing I've ever felt in my life. We took him to the hospital straight away and it looks like he's okay. A massive bump on the forehead. It was a big drop and a hard landing. Of course, I was, still am, a mess and worried that he's not okay - and I'll be watching him like a hawk tonight so there will be no sleep again. I feel sick as I can't get the image and sound out of my head.
Sorry to be such a downer but I honestly thought that I would never let that happen to my baby - goes to show how lax I had become. :(
xxx
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Sorry to be such a downer but I honestly thought that I would never let that happen to my baby - goes to show how lax I had become. :(
No, no, no you're not lax. You are a wonderful mommy who is trying her hardest to do her best for her DS. With the amount of time and effort you're putting into your baby, you are clearly anything but lax. Hey, accidents happen and while I realize you must feel terrible, please don't blame yourself - who knew they could get off the silly things while they were strapped in. I definitely didn't.
Glad to hear he's ok!
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I say the same as Erin :) It wasn't your fault and accidents do happen. I know it will be hard for you not to give yourself a hard time (I think you are a lot like me in that respect!) but just reassure yourself in the fact that he is ok. Babies are tough little things :D And you are definitely not lax - not one bit!
I remember when Ella was about 18 months old she managed to find a penny on the floor and get it stuck in her throat while I popped out of the room. It was the scariest few minutes of my life (and felt like eternity), as all the banging on the back, shaking her upside down etc would not budge it. She was going blue and I had no choice but to try and get it out with my finger - thankfully this worked. I will never forget that - it was so awful. I felt so terrible and so scared of what could have been. I prayed a lot after that I felt so grateful!
As for me, well me and Ruby had a cold a few weeks ago. She has finally gotten rid of it, but it has stuck on my chest and as I am asthmatic it has made me feel really tired and lethargic. So the house has been a mess which gets me down and I can't be bothered to go out which is not good for me either. I have had very little help from either Ella or Bob, which just es me off.
He went fishing Saturday left at 4.15 am and was completely useless for the rest of the weekend :x . I've been trying to get some early nights so I can shake this cold off, but he just gets all funny because he is missing out on his cuddle time :shock: . I just don't understand men sometimes - well most of the time! Ella is so busy doing her own thing or lazing around saying how bored she is, that she hardly ever spends time with Ruby, and I have to continuously remind her to do her chores (normal I know, but sooo frustrating). Aaah... the joys of family life :lol: Anyway, with trying to get Ruby into a better routine and not being particularly successful, it was all getting a bit too much. I was even considering (with a lot of guilt) giving up breastfeeding so I could have a break, but I won't. I do love knowing I am giving her the best start in life.
For some reason today I am feeling a lot better. Maybe it was that Bob got up with Ruby this morning and I had an extra hour asleep. Maybe it was also the fact that I had a bit of support and didn't feel like a single Mum for a change!
So that's me! Have lots more to write but will have to do it later......so much housework to do :shock: :lol:
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Thanks Erin and Susana! I still feel guilty.....I know it happens but it was so awful. Like I said - it will take a while to get the sound and sight out of my head. Amazingly, he is fine, not even much of a bruise. I actually think it was a bit of a miracle, sorry to sound corny, but he fell quite a distance on to a tiled floor. He sort of flipped over. I had a towel (headrest) on the table that came down with him, maybe that cushioned his fall. If he didn't flip over, he would have landed on his head and no doubt not made it. So.......I am breathing a big sigh of relief today and though it sickens me how close we could have come to losing him, I also feel like we are the luckiest parents around!
Re the penny story - oh crap.......that would have been just the scariest thing for you....what a nightmare. I am petrified of chokings.
Men - yep - I don't understand them either. I don't think there's much to understand sometimes. :lol: . Mark is very helpful with Oscar, in a physical sense, he will come home and take over pretty much. Of course he has no boobs but he do the bathtime or whatever so I can have a break. I am very lucky, I know. But he's really not very emotionally supportive, not because he's mean or anything, he just doesn't get it and doesn't feel things on the same level as I do. Pretty blokey really.
I can't imagine having a teenager around the place! It's a pity she can't be more helpful to you? Have you tried having a 'chat'. My Mum was never good at discipline but she would look sad when we mucked up and that was what made us start helping more. Guilt is very powerful!
As for fishing.....Grrrr....! I am really mean to Mark and make him stay at home these days - if I can't go out to the pub or whatever - neither can he! :wink: I keep telling him that 'as soon as Oscar is a better sleeper, we can be more flexible' he he
I need my house to be clean or I get very uptight and feel quite 'out of control' so I understand all that. It is hard though. We live in the desert and it's very dusty so even if I dusted the whole house today, it would be dusty tomorrow. There's no point worrying too much here, it's impossible to get on top of it. Mark is also useless in this department. I think he has an imaginary bin that he sees wherever he happens to be because he leaves a trail of wrappers and rubbish all over the house. Honestly, like a kid would.
Take care - I hope you are getting better....xx
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I hope Oscar is feeling better and that you have managed to forgive yourself :) Thanks, I am feeling a lot better. My chest is not so bad and I am feeling more energetic. I have also managed to get things in better perspective :D
I did have a chat with Ella. I said I would love to hear those special 3 little words! SHe had to guess what they were. It took her ages, but eventually she came up with them.......CAN I HELP!! :lol: When I was having a tidy up yesterday and she said them to me, I nearly fell over. I was so appreciative so I think we both felt good. Hopefully it will continue...
Bob has also been trying to be super helpful. He is a lovely, kind man most of the time - he just has a lot of stresses to deal with right now. That's why normally I don't mind him doing his own thing to relax - he is a lot happier then and is more able to support me (usually!). He is also very blokey and not too good with emotions, so it's hard to talk to him sometimes as I usually feel things very deeply. I hope we can have a good talk over the weekend and hopefully he won't start cracking jokes because he finds it uncomfortable!
He has been learning how to get Ruby to sleep (not very successfully but at least he is trying). I think all this BW stuff just boggles him - he's very old school in terms of baby rearing and is used to doing all the pacing, jiggling etc that most people do. He doesn't like being told what to do, so we have been at quite an impasse, but he seems to be coming round. I long for the day he can put Ruby to bed and know what to do if she wakes - then I will be able to go out!!
Take care xx
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You sound alot like me, as far as feeling things deeply. I often think I'm not cut out for this world, especially child rearing! My sister is the same.
Glad you are feeling better. I'm so glad you seem to have worked something out with Ella.
I was thinking of your last post re the 'calming' week you had with Ruby. I had a chat to a nurse at the clinic we are going to in September - I wanted to sus out exactly what methods they use so I don't show up and end up leaving because I disagree etc. Anyway, they sound great, will let me pick him up if he's crying etc but one thing she did suggest in the meantime is giving him LOTS of activity and keeping him up longer so he's really stuffed when I put him to bed. I told her how it takes about 30 minutes sometimes to put him down and she said 'well, why not try keeping him up that 30 minutes longer?'. I know - it sounds strange but this centre has been running for over 30 years or something and the nurses are very experienced? I don't know......sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I tried it tonight and he was falling asleep really quickly but he's woken up twice since so I 'dunno'!......
xx
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Hi! had to join in about the 'men' thing. I'm sure they are a completely different species to us. I know they are very good in some ways and that some men are "in touch with their feelings" but my aint either! He's out playing cricket tonight! Have you read 'Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus' by John Gray? Its very interesting.
Sorry to hear about your little los fall, Jane. I'm sure he'll be fine though.
I've just been putting together a list of questions to ask the allergy specialist when I see him. Although I had a letter this morning for the appointment, saying I would be seeing someone else ( supposed to be this professor bloke), so I'll have to chase them up yet again!!
Jacob has conjunctivitis, any tips?
Hope you're feeling better Susana.
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Go to the lounge and do the animal quiz! See what you come out as - apparently I'm a water buffalo!
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Hey Cheryl.....I did the quiz - apparently I'm human! Good to know. I found the questions hard to answer because almost all my answers are 'hmmm...depends....' - eg, I'm quite different in character amongst strangers than I am at home with Mark (he would probably say I am a monster) :x
Speaking of the man, I am getting quite frustrated with him 'changing' the routine all the time. It's driving me insane - to the point where I just might be the only one to put Oscar to bed! He sometimes 'forgets' the wind down, or forgot to put the night light on (Oscar woke up in complete darkness the other night!), or today....put him down awake. I said "what are you doing?" and he replied "isn't that what we're supposed to do?". I was like...'Yes, but we HAVEN'T been, you can't just CHANGE the rules on him when you feel like it!!!" Grrrrrrrrr. :evil: I think we do things differently with soothing too - maybe this is creating problems.
Anyway.....had to get that off my chest!
Cheryl - don't you hate that when you've got your hopes pinned on seeing a particular person and then it changes!? Maybe it's destiny, maybe this other person is 10 times better....? I really hope you are happy with the outcome. I find 'professionals' to be incredibly frustrating at times. It still amazes me how little agreement there is amongst various 'experts' when it comes to babies.
I really don't know what to do about conjunctivitis - maybe put a note on the medical forum? Sorry, I'm no help.
Better go, Oscar is due to wake up - it's been 35 minutes. Yesterday he had 4 x 40 minute naps ( :roll: ) and had red-rimmed eyes for most of the day. It broke my heart and made me feel terrible but he's impossible to get 'down' after that 40 minutes and wakes up smiling. It's only after about 30 minutes of being up that he looks tired again.
xxx
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yea- I wondered that - about seeing the other dr. like you say it might be good fate! Jacobs eyes are a bit better today. But he woke last night 3.30am :shock: for the first time in about 3 months!! :shock: :shock: I think its either developmental or he is having a growth spurt. So we did pu/pd. Seem to be doing a lot of that these days! :evil: I ought to go back to bed, but I hate sleeping in the day. Hope your cat is better. :D Jacob is veggie, because of my life philosophy, not because he is allergic to meat, although sometimes if you are allergic to milk, you can also be to beef. etc.
xx
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Oscar has really gone backwards in the sleep dept. Little naps all day, a huge fight to put him down - sooooooo tired of it all! He's got red-rimmed eyes alot too, makes me feel so bad. How can I extend his nap when he wakes up happy? Seriously, you can't do pu/pd with a happy bub. It's about 30 minutes later that he starts showing tired signs again. Grrrrr.....anyway - only two week till I get some help!
I would love to be vegetarian - but I do love chicken. :)
Anyway, another hard day in our household, Oscar really puts up a fight when sleep time comes, it's very, very draining.
xxx
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PS - I also bought a CD of womb sounds to play whilst he sleeps but DH thought it was 'creepy' so we've gone for the static radio again! :roll:
In the meantime...I think I will end the day with a G&T! Cheers....
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Mmm, yes I used to love chicken, and bacon!! They were the last two meats I stopped eating. I've got flu today and Jacob is poorly too, so I rung in sick. Trying to think when I've done pu/pd. I think, at times Jacob has been happy, but I've assumed he is tired/nap time and just gone for it. Why can't you do it with a happy bub :?:
gosh is it only two weeks to go? How long will you be away for, and will you have access to the web? :?
xx
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Sorry to hear you're feeling poorly - hope it doesn't get any worse.
Well, you pick them up when they are crying, don't you? If he's lying there smiling at me - what am I supposed to do? Leave him there happy until he starts to cry? I can't do that, that just feels really mean?
Having said that, he's been waking up at 5am and I've been bringing him into our bed but he only drifts in and out of a restless sleep so it's not really working. I DREAD the thought of doing pu/pd at 5am but not sure what else to do?! I think the pu/pd thing has become scary for me now. :roll:
We won't have access to the web, unfortunately. I am a bit scared of going now (I know, I know.....I'm never happy!). I'm starting to soften and think 'maybe we should just put up with what we've got now' because I'm not sure I want to see him cry and learn new things again. Despite being a poo-head with sleep, he really has been a little angel by sleeping in his cot for us. :?
what to do...what to do.....?!
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did a post, now lost it :evil: Got to get something to eat -starving :shock:
will post later!!!
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that is so annoying!! :roll:
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Hi! I'm back. Had lots of trouble getting on the web yesterday.
No! don't leave it - it won't get better on its own. Just imagine when Oscar is able to talk saying 'Mummy noooooo, I don't want to go to sleep' that would be just horrid. Definately get it sorted hwile he's still young (I know you will , I can tell you're that sort of person). I think the clinic sounds ok. Remember that Nurse said you won't have to leave him to CIO. I bet they'll give you a choice of methods. Have they heard of BW methods? I bet there'll be something similar. It'll be great having the support of other people there with you. You'll be ok - so will Oscar.
I was up last night !! 4.30 am - sorting out baby J -not well. Had to do pu/pd!! oh dear rather jaded today!
Gotta go and have breakfast! O dear You'll always think I'm eating!!
xx
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I'll go. His day sleeps are really, really bad still and I guess getting up every 2 hours at night isn't cool either!
Cheryl - i am an eating machine - BF makes me a hungry hippo - and hippo I am (not really but heaps bigger than I used to be....). There's a good post on here somewhere about not being able to lose weight etc while bf. :roll: I am eating the healthiest diet but makes no difference to the huge tummy.
I had to do pu/pd at 4.30am too (and 1am). I brought him into bed this morning at 6.30, just to lie with him and cuddle and start the day with some smiles but he closed his eyes and went back to sleep (head on my pillow?!!). Woke up at 8.30! Cheeky boy. He had 3 x 30 min naps today and was sooooo tired tonight - was splashing away in his bath in a sort of half cranky/half happy way (his red rimmed eyes gave it away though).
What's up with Jacob?
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Hello,
A very easy book to read and that makes sense is BabyWise. I don't mean to sound cold but you must stop certain behaviors in order to develop new behaviors. I have found whenever I wanted a certain behavior to stop within 2 to 5 nights the new behavior would be formed as long as I stayed tough. I have friends that did the same things you have described and still 3 years later they are still having the same sleep problems. You need to teach your child to fall asleep on his own. I'm a schedule freak, yet I can tell you every day what time my 21 month old is going to go to sleep, what time he will eat, etc... I always put my child to sleep awake and he has learned how to put himself to sleep. I do the Sleep, Eat, Alert schedule with him. There was times I had to let him cry himself to sleep, but I don't think any time lasted more than 40 minutes. It's a painful process, yet I'm so thankful I provided my child the opportunity to learn how to sleep. The good news is your baby is still so young it won't be as hard as you think. He can still sleep with you if that's what you enjoy... but get the baby to fall asleep on his own. Honestly, I think when I started with this schedule was right around the same age your baby is at, so just get tough in yourself and the rewards will payoff and your hands will be free before you know it.
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Hi JBD, I do understand that some parents feel that they have to let their babies CIO, as nothing else seemed to have worked, but Tracy wouldn't have advocated for this. I guess we all do the best we can at the time.
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Jane, Jacob is ok, just has the same flu bug as me - woke up coughing last night. Anyway you're alllowed to eat like a hungry hippo :P cos you're still BF, I'm not, so there is no excuse :roll:
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:lol: about the eating! Initially I lost a lot of weight, now I seem to have put it back on :? Oh well, will just have to get to the gym :shock:
As for the sleep training - I would go to the clinic if I were you Jane as the earlier they learn the easier it is, for them and you. Ella did not sleep through the night til about age 4/5! Let me tell you I was utterly ed off with it by then! She always wanted to get in bed with me at some point in the night, would be up a couple of times in the evening and often was hard to get off to sleep at bedtime. I did Ferberise her (controlled crying) when she was about 7 months old which helped (though was far more stressful for us both), but she still never slept well due to me feeding to sleep mainly and not giving her the opportunity to learn to get to sleep when she was younger. Initially I just loved cuddling her to sleep, but in the end it was nearly the death of me!
My own thoughts now are to always try to soothe in the crib, sometimes I am there til she drops off, but at least you can wean them off that gently and the crib is always associated with sleep. Saying that I am not perfect! This morning I fell asleep when feeding and we didn't wake up til 8.45. I just try not to let that happen very often so it doesn't become a bad habit.
Good luck!
Cheryl - Hoping you and Jacob are feeling better today :D
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Yea, were both a lot better today. I must admit, before I started doing BW properly, I tried CC once. And it was the only time. I got really stressed and after about 4 mins, Jacob got really scared :shock: and vommited. :cry: So I would never do it again. Luckily he was very forgiving and it did not make a lasting impression.
I've been trying to teach Jacob to sign, and at long long last he has started to sign for milk!! :D :D Trouble is I think he has cottoned on to this as a way of delaying naps/bedtime, cos he knows he's going to get a response! :wink: Are babies really that clever or am I reading too much into it ??!
xx
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Hi - yeah, I know control crying gives some parents the results they want but I'm not going there - I guess, having whinged and become almost hysterical over no sleep, I would still rather put up with it than let him cry to sleep, that's just how I feel. My sister tried it on her lo (out of sheer desperation) and said it made her 10 times worse and it tooks weeks to rebuild the trust. Anyway - it's a touchy subject but I guess I wouldn't be trying the BW methods if was into CC. (but I do appreciate your advice JBD - you're not the first one to tell me to toughen up!)
Having said that, Oscar was up at 6am this morning, laughing and grinning at me so I knew there was no sleep-in today! He's napping now (he'll do his reliable 40 mins). I wish someone would wind me down and give me a nap too! :roll: Unlike my DH, who can fall asleep in an instant, I take about 30 mins to fall asleep, so I don't even try to catch up when Oscar goes down!
I hear that quite a bit about weight - that is, putting it back on again. Does having a baby automatically slow your metabolism or what? It seems like now I'm a Mum, I must have tuck-shop arms and 3 tyres around my waist. In fact, speaking of Mums - when I look in the mirror now, I see MY Mum's body! :x I used to be so fit and slim! I hope I can get back there again without too much drama, guess it will take time, probably longer than the 9 months it took to get here though! :roll:
Signing? I've never heard of that! (except for in the movie - Meet the Fockers...so funny). Is this a BW thing?
xx
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Yea I was a right porker when I was BF. That is spooky, I see my mums body when I look in the mirror too! The weight is gradually coming off, especially since my partner and I have made a pact - no sweeties/ nicieties during the week! :shock: (I try not to guts at the weekend). It's been over nine months now and I'M still not backto my pre Baby J days!! But almost there. I'm a great advocate for guttsing while BF (healthy things of course :wink: ), you and bub need it, so forget being porky for now you can sort that out later!
I don't think signing is particulaly a BW thing, although Tracy says its good to do if you want. It is brill, and would recommend it. I think we started a bit early and not been very consistent, especially with other signs, so that's probably why its taken so long! Haven't seen meet the fockers, haven't seen much tv at all. Did see league of gentlemen film - absolute rubbish ( I thought anyway).
I wonder if Oscar is one of thoses babes who are just programmed to 45 min naps?
We are away for a few days next week. ( oh no the organisation, is something else!!)
xxx
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Just to let you know I don't think crontrolled crying is a good thing! It was just what the health visitor told me to do, and being young, inexperienced and without the invention of the internet I just did what she said.....trusting the "experts" blindly. My point was that it's really important to get it sorted out in the kindest way possible, but there will always be some crying.
As for the body thing, it took me about 2 years to get used to my Mummy body...at first I hated it, especially the boobs and stretch marks! Now I love the fact my body kinda tells the story of my life and it's a proper womans body, not a girls one.
The signing thing is cool. I haven't tried it myself, but it must be great for you to be able to communicate with each other.
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Susana - i didn't think you were pro-control crying! I hope my post didn't sound like I did.....i was more replying to JBD!
I think it might take me two years to accept my 'new' body! I don't mind changing a little but still looking pregnant is a bit much..... :D. Though, I do like what you say about not having a girls body etc. I love being curvy but frumpy, I'm not so keen on.... :roll:
Getting back to that Mum thing - it IS a bit spooky because I always looked at her body and though 'Nah, I won't get like that because our fat is distributed differently etc......BUT.....I swear, it's all changed and I am fatter in the SAME areas as she is. This is not a gradual thing, it happened straight after giving birth.
Re Oscar and 40 minute naps - THIS is my new fear - what if he IS a short napper and we waste his tears trying to force a longer sleep out of him? When do you say 'okay.....clearly, he will only ever short-nap?'. He can obviously get past it at night? I put him down at 7pm tonight and at 9pm, he yelled out for about 30 seconds then went back to sleep. I don't understand the day thing..... :?:
I agree, the signing sounds really cool! xx
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My Mum is a tiny little thing..... unlike me.....I think I am developing the body of my Nan! Ha ha! I look so mumsy it's funny...hopefully not frumpy though :lol:
Yeah the 45 minute nap thing is a bummer, but after the first few weeks where they usually sleep loads, she has hardly ever had long naps. A few days ago I decided to give trying to extend her naps a rest (unless she is really crying when she wakes up) and she has slept better at night! . Her own pattern is to have 4 x 45 naps in a day and I have been trying to get them into 2 longer naps. I don't understand why she can get through 45 minutes at night but not in the day either...just boggles me! Even if I have the room as dark it makes no difference. I have tried keeping her really calm so as not to overstimulate her - no difference. I have played around with her awake time - no difference. So I am just going to leave it. One good thing about short naps, is we can go out more and she can have her nap in the buggy. I was feeling like a prisoner!
I think her short naps will just join up at some point into 2 longer naps, probably as she gets more physically active. Her best naps are after swimming when her body is tired rather than her brain, which is just like me really. (I think that makes sense for a spirited type?! What do you think?)
Hope you are having a good weekend :D :D
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I agree! That's what I've been doing the last couple of weeks - mainly because I just got sick of the tears involved with trying to extend it - and also because he often wakes up so alert and it's like 'okay, how do we get you back to being sleepy?!!'. I know he probably would do better with more but I'm not sure if he can, or if it's worth the fight!
This probably isn't BW style but the last week or so has been easier, purely because I've been accepting his short naps and expecting them. Now that we've got him sleeping OUT of our arms, things are much better so I can accept the crappy day sleeps a bit better. By no means is it perfect but it's more tolerable.
I'm not sure if they will blend the 4 naps into 2 longer ones - that would be awesome! I'm thinking along the same lines though, when he starts crawling etc, he might stay up longer but be more physically tired and better for naps. :roll:
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Oh no!! :twisted: I just don't understand why I lose messages!! It is so annoying :roll:
Didn't mean to scare you Jane when I said about Oscar maybe being one of those 45 min sleepers :oops: , I really meant nappers!!
Jacob's alot better , but I'm still grotty, may go to G.P.s tomorrow. That's the trouble with Jacob going to Nursery, you get all sorts of bugs. I only amalgamated J's naps over the past few weeks, ( he is now 9 months) and just the pm naps, as he goes to nursery 4 mornings a week and trying to get them to follow my instructions will be a big project :shock: !!. ( I have leant them my bw video, though, so that they know how to do pu/pd. I just used p/sh when I heard him stirring, which seemed to work :P . ( I took him out of the cot).
xx
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You didn't scare me Cheryl! I know what you meant and I often wonder the same thing.
The 5.30-45am wake ups are really annoying? What does Tracy say to do about that? I suppose p/u, p/d? I have her book but find some things hard to locate unless it's listed in the index?!
You're brave taking Jacob to day-care! I get nervous when someone else wants to hold Oscar! :roll: Silly, I know........
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PIG! lost message again!! :twisted:
I know what you mean about leaving them. I still hate leaving Baby J at day care, but it is better now that I have spread my hours out over the week. Had to go back to work...eeked it out as long as possible.
I think Tracy says that a lot of babies naturally wake at around that time of morning and it depends on what time they go to bed, so if they go early, not to expect them to sleep in late. Jacob has very gradually made the progression towards later waking. Its still aroung 6 ish though. I don't feel I can really change this though because on work days I need him to have his milky early so theres time for breaky, and to fit everything else in too! I htink if you delay that first feed gradually, the'll get used to it, but probably best to get other stuff sorted first.
xx
Saw prof. Strobel. He was brilliant. J is goingto have more tests and am seeing a nice dietician too. It's a real big relief. I can now carry on with having a weaning plan :D :D
When do you go away? And do you really live in the desert (or is that dessert) (Mmm! I know which one I'd prefer! :wink: )
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Wonder why you keep losing your messages? I lost one once, but only when I was trying to add a photo that was too large. If I'm scared I'll lose my message, I will 'control C' it (I have no idea how much computer knowledge you have so please forgive me if I'm sounding patronising!) so I can paste it in if I lose it.
If you have to work, that's life.....I'm lucky. I did read a little snippet in a magazine the other day.....it said that children that go to day care are less likely to develop leukaemia. Don't ask me where they came up with this result or if it's true! But I did read it.. :wink:
Oscar was horrible to put down tonight - it took well over an hour. He had a long sleep today (amazingly) - from 3.20pm - 5pm (this was after a resettle so add 40 mins on to that). I wonder if this is why he was so bad tonight? Any thoughts........?
I'm still undecided about the sleep clinic - need to decide in the next couple of days. We fly out on the 5th September, regardless. We will either stay at the clinic OR at a nice holiday apartment and have a nice little break away! He's just been sooooo happy lately, never whinges or cries (bar tonight) and is very sweet. If he's happy, I'm not sure we should mess with that? Hmmmm........I know you think I should go! :?
The early wake ups - I thought it didn't matter what time they went to bed? I'm sure I've read that it doesn't make any difference? God knows I've read so many books though!
The desert - yeah, it is really but it's also a small town. It's right in the middle of Australia - no water and the only river in town is actually always dry. It gets extremely hot in Summer and the Winter is fairly mild. I go through a ton of moisturiser otherwise I look like a lizard! We are only here for DH's work. Did I tell you I lived in Henley-on-Thames for a couple of years?
xxx
I'm so glad you found the Prof. to be good - what a relief!
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If it makes you feel better, my nephew has never been a sleeper. He just turned 2 and pretty much has stopped sleeping during the day and has probably never slept through the night more than a handful of times. However (and here's the part to make you feel better) he's probably the sweetest, smartest, most good natured 2 year old I have ever met. He knows all his letters, colors, shapes, makes and models of cars (he's obsessed!), some Spanish, can identify everyone's cars in the family, and is just a pleasure to be around. His lack of sleeping has never bothered him - just my sister, who at this point just kind of goes with the flow. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!
-Erin
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Patronising! I don't think so....I'm a bit of a computer dunce :oops: So if I do control and the letter c together I should be able to save it?... Lets c (excuse the poor play on words :) )
Patronising! I don't think so....I'm a bit of a computer dunce So if I do control and the letter c together I should be able to save it?... Lets c (excuse the poor play on words )
Oh I see, well I managed to do copy and paste, not sure about cntrl c though.
Thanks about the leukaemia snippet.
WoW! what a nap. You may be right though, I don't know what time he went to bed, but I sometimes had difficulty with Jacob, if his last nap was a bit too close to bed time.
Yea you're right about the bedtime and wake up thing. I think the bit I read was about some one complaining that their baby went to bed at 6 and was annoyed because they woke at 5/5.30am. I think Tracy said they should count their blessings! rather than try to change it.
Naughty, naughty, stop trying to talk your way out of going to the sleep clinic :wink: ! Why not talk to them again about what happens? It's a shame there aren't any Baby Whisperers out your way who could come to the house and help you to sort it out there.
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I've literally got a couple of days to decide! Oscar was awful last night so that might have some influence! DH would rather us go to the clinic because it won't cost anything (how typical is that?). I think his big nap was too close to bedtime - we tried to put him down at 7.30 (he was still up for 2.5 hours and looked tired but didn't go down until 9ish....).
In a bad mood today - DH is annoying me! Has been for 3 days now - making nasty little comments. Think he's feeling neglected in the old 'affection' department. Too bad! I can't help it if my hormones make me not interested in him! :wink:
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Hi ladies...good to read all your news :D (well the good bits anyway...sorry you are still feeling unwell Cheryl and that Oscar has had a few bad nights).
How is Oscar generally doing at night now? Does he fall asleep on his own? If he can't get to sleep on his own the sleep clinic could help a lot.
About the naps. Well I hate to see dark circles under her eyes and after a few good nights it got worse again, so I decided to give a try to going up at 40 minutes and putting my hands on her and patting a little if she needed it (don't know why I didn't before!). I did it a few days for her morning nap and she started resettling herself and sleeping nearly 2hrs! This morning wasn't too good as I didn't go up, thinking she would go through, but she woke up (did manage to get her off again though). I should have known as we had visitors yesterday and she didn't eat or sleep very well and then had a bad night and was overtired, but at least I know now that if she is overtired I have to help her, otherwise she is ok doing it on her own. I think I will start doing the same for her afternoon nap too. It's a lot less stressful than pu/pd and seems to be working well.
Ruby gets up at about 6, but then she does go to bed at about 6.30. I have tried making both a bit later but it just messes her up more, so I have just accepted it. I refuse to get up before 6 though!!
I have the same problem regarding my "hormones". I'm just not interested. I read that breast feeding can affect your sex drive, but I think for me being tired is more to do with it. He gets all grumpy too....it's so annoying! I wish he would just sort himself out and stop pressuring me! Men!
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Sorry Erin M - I didn't see your post! :oops: YES, that makes me feel better! Oscar is also a lovely baby and, at present, doesn't seem too affected by his short sleeps either. Your nephew sounds a delight!
Nice to know someone else feel the same way about sex! I told DH about the breastmilk theory - he wasn't impressed, probably because I have many months to go of it! :lol:
Oscar is not going to sleep on his own. We are with him, patting or sometimes just a little back rub. I KNOW - this is not the BW way. DH and I know that it is recommended that he go to sleep on his own. Just to confirm - is this really so important? (don't kill me!!). I guess we would leave when he's calm but awake, yes? It would mean another intensive week, wouldn't it? I'm guessing this is what they would do at the sleep clinic too. Wondering if we need them to do that with us as I'm more confident now we have overcome the biggest hurdle of getting him OUT of our arms for sleeps.
He has now learnt how to roll over (finally! just side to side, not back to tummy!) and thinks this is very cool. So funny to watch him as it seems like he only really started yesterday but thinks he's a bit of a pro and does it really fast like he's been doing it for years. BIG grins too - he's very proud of himself!
We've noticed he's started to pull his ears - is this a tired sign or something else? We think it's a tired sign.....he doesn't appear to be distressed.
Susana - you must be so happy! Well done with the 40 min nap improvement. I'm envious! Maybe we should give it another go, I only tried a few times but he would wake up fully and I'd have to do pu/pd anyway. What a good little girl.....you must have been proud!
xx
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Yes, the patting, rubbing is the BW way! Like you said just try to move away when their eyes start closing, and they are calm. I was thinking of an analogy, so I could explain it to DH better, and I think it's a lot like teaching a child to ride a bike! At first you are holding the bike firmly, then gradually you take one hand off, you may have to put it back on again lots of times, but you watch the child, and get a sense of how much of it they are doing by themselves, until you can finally take your hands off completely. Then when they get back on the next day you might still have to hold the back of the bike again, but eventually they can do it on their own. I think the key is to be very observant and aware and try not to give anymore help than is required so they can become independent.
Sorry gotta go...will write more later.
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Susana, that is brilliant on the napping front! :D :D
I have some good napping news too - the nursery managed to get Jacob to do 1 hour 25 this morning! Which is a first. :D :D
Jane, that is ok - to pat and rub his tummy or back in his cot. No problem there. Do you do this until he is asleep? Because I think this is also ok. I used to hold J until he had closed his eyes, before popping him into the cot, then continued p/shh until he was asleep. In the end I just did it more lightly, just the pat, then just a hand on him and in the end he got it. It was a long process for us.
I still think you have achieved a great deal by getting him out of your arms. :D :D and secretly thinking that your doing better than you give yourself credit for! :wink:
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like tha analogy Susana! :lol:
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Well done to Jacob for his long nursery nap! :D A bit of relief for you Cheryl!
You'll be pleased to know that I've decided to go to the sleep clinic. I realised this morning that a big part of me didn't want to go just so Mark and I could stay somewhere 'nice' and relax as we badly need a break. I know this is selfish and could backfire.....what if Oscar becomes even more of a nightmare to put to sleep whilst we are away and we end up with a screaming baby and angry hotel neighbours! Plus - I realised that if I don't go, the minute I have a particularly hard time with him, I will be filled with regret and always wonder if they could've helped us.
He has been quite a grizzle-guts today and was HYSTERICAL when I tried to take him for a walk in the pram (had to come back home after 5 mins walking) so it makes my decision even easier! He's having terrible naps too - I've done pu/pd all day it seems.
We leave on Monday - I'm nervous as I know there will be lots of tears and we could walk away with no improvement BUT it's the last resort for 'outside' help so at least I'll know I've explored those avenues.
I may even lose weight as I doubt they cater for my finicky diet! :wink:
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Oh dear, what a day for you Jane. My afternoon was not so good either. Jacob wwent down for his pm nap fine, but only did 45 mins. I nearly thought oh, I might just leave it today, then thought , no it is a great opportunity to get him into a routine of 2 1.5 hr naps. Anyway. I ended up doing pu/pd for 1/2h,nearly asleep, several times but just wouldn't go off. He was very annoyed,slamming his legs down on the matress. I've never seen him like this. I felt very bad. It was the same at bed time, but he was asleep in 20 mins, after pu/pd. I can only put it down to being developmental, adn just getting over an illness. He woke at 2.30 last night, but I strongly felt this was becoming a habit, after waking the previous couple of nights coughing. He wasn't really crying, so I left him and he did go back, thank goodness, cos I was very tempted to go into him!
Oh, I am very finicky with my food too!! I still think it is psychological, from when my Mum used to try to get me to eat all of my food up!! Now I know what it is like!! :lol:
We are away tomorrow, back Sunday when we celebrate my Dads 70 th birthday by going up in a hot air balloon!! So I'll speak to you before you go away.
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I bought an expensive hammock too that DS won't use
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The hammocks look so comfy!? I also found it too hard to put him down in it when I tried to do pu/pd as it was quite an ordeal to get him in and out (lots of movement etc). Other people swear by them...
I've had an awful night and day again. I'm afraid to say that Oscar has taken a definite turn for the worse.....I have no idea why. He has become extremely hard to settle - our 'wind down' doesn't wind him down anymore and the pu/pd is going on for a very long time (1-2 hours, with breaks). He eventually goes to sleep because he can't physically keep his eyes open anymore. :cry: I'm depressed again, especially because I thought we were improving. I used to be able to put him on his side and rub his back etc but now he flips over (gets ANGRY) and yells and screams at me with his arms and legs flailing everywhere. I try to pick him up but he gets angry and rubs his face into my shoulder and squirms, so I put him down, and so it goes on....? I end up just looking at him, feeling helpless, not knowing what to do? If I touch him (it's hard to know where when he's on his back) on the forehead or something, it seems to get him more upset.
I don't think he's in pain, he's clearly very, very tired and has red rimmed eyes again. :(
Sorry to be such a downer again - I'm just so fed up and CONFUSED.
Cheryl - I hope Jacob is better for you today. Oscar slams his legs down all the time, he gets very angry. Do you not get sick of doing pu/pd? I do and I'm still new to it.
Won't it be freezing in a balloon at this time of year? (it's very warm here, singlet and shorts weather...)
We are leaving on Saturday now....going to stay a couple of nights in a hotel - which I am now dreading because of Oscar's 'turn'.
xx
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We're back!
I won't go into too much detail but the basic outcome is pretty good!
It all went soooo much easier than I thought, the midwives were amazing and kind and the other Mum's there were also fantastic. It was a lovely little bonding week and I was actually sad to leave this morning!
Oscar was a sweetie and responded really well. There was no crying, other than about 2 minutes when he was being wrapped then a grizzle for about 5 minutes. He did 3 sleeps a day, 2 were 1.5-2 hours and a shorter one in the evening! The night wasn't fantastic but better than he has been (we got a 5 hour stretch one night!).
We've been home for two naps and he's just gone down for the night. He has been harder to put down now we are home (typical!!) but I am hoping (and praying) that it's because he's had a funny day - flying for two hours and missing a morning nap. Fingers crossed.
What did we do? I think the secret for Oscar was in the wrap. We used big cot sheets and wrapped him up like a mummy. We also put a sheet over his end of the cot (secured!) so it blocked out any visual stimuli. They had these steel bassinets on wheels which were brilliant because you could push them back and forth really easily. So...it was 2 hours up (no tired signs - just two hours up, two hours down (try for anyway, it's more like 1-2 hours down). When his activity time was up, it was to the room, wrap, kiss goodnight and pop him in the bassinet. Then I would sing a bit and rock the bassinet for a few minutes. It was almost too good to be true! A few times he put himself to sleep with no rocking.
Anyway - not feeling nearly as confident now we are home - it's very hard to mimic exactly what we had there (our wooden cot doesn't roll very well on carpet and is bulkier!) but hopefully it will be okay.
All in all - very glad we went. I think we were doing too much with Oscar and that's why he was getting hysterical - we need to make bedtime a very quick wrap and pop in cot or he gets very angry! A wind down is okay but he just gets upset if we drag it out too long!
Don't worry - I am not getting too cocky - today was not as easy and I know that things can change!
Hope you have all had a nice week?
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wow! I am so pleased you've got it sorted...and what a relief.. no cio!! It sounded really similar to BW, except the rocking bit.
Jacob is going to see the dietician on monday. I tried him on lentils again yesterday, and he is still allergic...it's a real pig. I think I may try a different brand. I've still got this bug, even after a course of antibiotics, although it's no longer on my chest and not looking forward to work on Tuesday! We had a nice break though and have just celebrated my Brothers babys first birthday (Kamran). Didn't go up in the balloon - it was cancelled twice due to the weather.. one more chance then we get our money back.
gottago
xx
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I wish we could've stayed there longer - I feel really isolated again now we are back. And it wasn't long enough to get it all sorted. He is still waking up quite a bit and needing to be resettled and I'm not sure what to do about the 4am wake up (not hungry etc). It took an hour to get him back to sleep for only another hour's sleep! No crying, he just didn't want to sleep. Anyway, hopefully things will all become clearer one day!
Pity you didn't get to balloon?! You must be used to the weather getting in the way of things (meaning in the UK). It very rarely rains in this part of Australia.
I hope Jacob's reaction to lentils wasn't a severe one? Must be frustrating for you! Oscar starts solids in 1 month - I'm kinda nervous as it's something else that might go wrong! Shouldn't be so negative hey?
x
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That is brill! Even though it took an hour... to get him to go down for an hour is fantastic. (Can you phone them for advice?) I think if you stick to it it will get easier. Just remember what things were like a couple of months ago.
Yea, I think you're very brave living where you do. What does your DH do? ( work I mean). Jacobs reaction wasn't severe, just annoying, as lentils have a lot of good nutrition in them.
Our last date for the balloon ride is 15th Oct. It will be freezing then!! :shock: must be mad! :shock:
xx
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You are so positive! I am always the negative poohead! I know things are much better but I still feel we haven't got it sorted properly. So you think in time things will improve? I hope so. He was up at 5.30am today - wouldn't go back to sleep. Seemed weird putting him down for a nap at 7.30am! (when I would rather be getting up thanks!). He seems to be resisting the second stage of his nap (ie after the 40 mins) more than he was in Adelaide. I don't understand it but I will persist, I have to!
You must be keen to get up in that balloon! My DH is with the police.
We have started to massage Oscar! One of the midwives saw his big baby fat rolls and said "oh, i have to massage that bottom!". I, of course, said that he doesn't really enjoy it but he made a liar out of me and lay on his tummy drooling and being very quiet while she did it. I couldn't believe it! So funny to see.....
Lentils are nutritious.....what about Tofu? do you guys eat that ? x
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I know it is a pain when they wake early, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. Sounds like Jacobs pattern, It will improve. Jacob slowly moved from 5.30 to 6.30. Still occasionally wakes @5.30, like today!! He too wants to go back 2 hours later, which I like at w/ends, so I can go back to bed for a little while. If I was at home during the week, I might work on it, but its not really possible. I tried wake to sleep yesterday, to extend his 2nd am nap, and couldn't believe it actually worked, even though he woke fully and needed a bit of p/sh, so he had the most naps he has ever had. Not sure if it was coincidence, so may try again today.
Yea he's ok with tofu, thank goodness, supposed to be seeind dietician today, but we all still feel rotten with this flu-y thing. Hope its not bird flu!! Haven't felt right for several weeks. Going back to GP today.
xx
ps, we have to go up in balloon or else we don't get our money back ( Imean give it 3 goes) :roll:
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I hope it's nothing serious too? It's not something yucky like glandular fever is it?
Today was not as good - the 5.30 wake up threw it all out? I was in tears again (i'm a baby, i know) as it sucks that things go funny again now I don't have the support! The '2 hours up, 2 hours down' only works well if they get up at 7am and actually have the 2 hours down! It's bit like the 4-hour EASY not really working unless they have the long naps. Eg: today he was up at 5.30, so was down at 7.30. He slept for 1.5 hours so got up at 9am. Down again at 11am, slept for two hours, up at 1pm. Then came the nap at 3pm, which I suspected would be a shorter one. Sure enough, after 45 mins he cried and I tried to re-settle but to no avail. I got him up but he was still tired, very grizzly and unhappy. So I tried to put him down again - but no way was he going down. By 5pm I had given up and decided to put him to bed at 7pm. So....he really had 3 hours up this time. Sorry to go on but you seem to have good advice on this stuff!! Am I expecting too much from him (5 mths) to go to bed around 7pm and wake at 7am? (not without wake ups - I expect them and I feed him at 10pm, 3am). If I followed the 2 up, 2 down thing I learnt, I would have put him down at 6pm and then up at 8pm?!! Would he then be up till 10pm?!! ARRGGHHHH.
In answer to your question, 'no' I can't call the centre and get help. I have a number to call which is a national parent line but they are just useless. It's frustrating because Oscar did everything they wanted so I didn't have these questions at the time.
Blah blah, sorry - i do go on, I know. :oops:
That sounds weird that you don't get your money back? You can't control the weather!!? Maybe England is not the place to book balloon rides (he he.... :wink: )
xxx
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Want to reply, there's lots I want to know, but gotta have some grub! To me it sounds as though you've got it - with the techniques, but need to tweek and play about with the timing of things. Actually it sounds fantastic :D :D ...you have to remember doing "the thing" and how awful it was in the begining. Speak soon
xxx
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Only if you have time, thanks Cheryl. After putting him to bed at 7pm, he woke at 8pm, 9pm (fed him), 1.30 (fed him), 4.30 (fed him), 5.30 and 6.30am. Yucky night. He fed really well too. Maybe didn't feed so good during the day as my BF were off track and was feeding him about 30 mins in to the activity time. If I don't catch him straight after a snooze, he feeds badly! I know things are better but it's been going on for such a long time and i feel I still can't 'relax' when I put him to bed, waiting for the next wake up when I have to resettle.
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Hi, I know I'm always being postitive and I really do mean it, but I hope it's not too annoying :oops: I do remember how difficult it is. Jacob wasn't an easy baby at all in the first few months. He was very colicy and used to cry litterally non stop from 8pm until 2 in the morning. It was really horrible. This went on until he was 3 1/2 months old. It was around then that I started to do BW properly after advice from Mathewsmommy. I remember things being tough up until about 6months old, when things began to fall into place. I think it may be the same for you. And I do think you are well on the way to an easier life. :)
Oh, Yes and you are allowed to be upset... you wouldn't be 'normal' if you weren't sometimes. I was in tears many times. But for the past 4 months things have been really really lovely - I know this will happen for you too. :D You are working so hard. That is plain to see.
Yes I see what you mean, about it only working if they are up at 7ish.
1. Was wondering if Oscar is having a growth spurt if he was so keen to feed at night? It's usually around 6 months though.
2. Did he sleep through the night at the clinic?
3. Did he go to sleep ok at 7pm, or was he ready for bed before then?
4. Did you try to resettle him when he woke at 5.30am?
5. How many feeds does he get during the day, does he seem satisfied after?
6. Are you following everything exactly as they did at the clinic? ( or is this not possible now you are home and if not , which bits aren't you doing?)
I know it's lots of questions, but was hoping we may be able to work something out.
Jacob used to wake 2-4 times after I put him down for the night up until he was around 5 months, it was nearly always wind. I never used to believe him, until I picked him up winded him for a good 5 mins!
The baby massage sounded really cute! What a little toad, lying there & enjoying it after you said he wouldn't like it!
xxx
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Never annoying! I just wish I had your attitude!
1. Was wondering if Oscar is having a growth spurt if he was so keen to feed at night? It's usually around 6 months though.
I'm not sure?! We had him weighed today and he's put on 300g in a week, so maybe. He's a big boy though - he's now off the scale for weight and in the 97th percentile for height!
2. Did he sleep through the night at the clinic?
No, to be fair, he didn't. He did have longer stretches though - 5 hours one night. We were only there 3 nights so hard to tell.
3. Did he go to sleep ok at 7pm, or was he ready for bed before then?
He went fine but woke up at 8pm, then 9pm, etc
4. Did you try to resettle him when he woke at 5.30am?
Yep. For about 20 minutes, he kept drifting off, then waking up etc.... I gave up at 6am.
5. How many feeds does he get during the day, does he seem satisfied after?
Every 4 hours - so....if the first is at 6, it will be 10am, 2pm, 6pm and 10pm. He seems satisfied because he pulls off when I know there's some left but he's had enough and starts grinning at me.
6. Are you following everything exactly as they did at the clinic? ( or is this not possible now you are home and if not , which bits aren't you doing?)
Pretty much exactly, they had an exhaust fan in the room that was pretty noisy, we have the radio on static, not quite the same noise but close. He was also in a bassinet, now he's in a cot.
I feel a bit better today - I made him stay in bed until 6am, I basically rocked the cot till then! He's had 3 sleeps today, all 1.5-2hours long. We'll see how he goes tonight - he's due to go down at around 8pm. I think I am still obsessed with his sleep and get nervous all the time, wondering when he's going wake up. I am on edge all the time, knowing I'll have to go in and resettle after 40 mins, and a few times after!
Anyway - I am probably worrying myself to sickness! My hair is still falling out!
xxx
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Sounds as though things are begining to come together. :)
But, your hair, you poor thing. Please try not to worry so much. You really are getting there. I know you don't believe me, or can see all the progress, but you are going to be so experienced in sleep problems after all of this, you'll be running the BW site before you know it!!
Wow! that's great that he's on the 97th percentile...Oscar is very like Jacob, cos he is on that one too!
1. I'm not sure?! We had him weighed today and he's put on 300g in a week, so maybe. He's a big boy though - he's now off the scale for weight and in the 97th percentile for height!
I think if he really was hungry then its ok to feed him, but it would be good to get rid of all those night feeds
Every 4 hours - so....if the first is at 6, it will be 10am, 2pm, 6pm and 10pm. He seems satisfied because he pulls off when I know there's some left but he's had enough and starts grinning at me.
I know you've got a good routine of feeds going, but I can't help thinking that if you were able, and Oscar was willing to have an extra one or two feeds during the day, that he would sleep for longer at night. Tracy said that if you are able to increase their calorie intake during the day, especially while going through a growth spurt, you won't get them waking at night. Not sure quite how this fits into EASY, but it is what I did, before I started weaning. It got a bit manic as I was doing 8 feeds all during the day, but it sure meant he didn't wake for night feeds.
2. How did they get him to go back to sleep during the night at the clinic? Also are you still swaddling in the same way? I think swaddling is sooo important to babes like Oscar
3. He went fine but woke up at 8pm, then 9pm, etc
Just wondering if he has always done this...is it habitual? If so I think its just a matter of perseverence.
4. Did you try to resettle him when he woke at 5.30am?
Yep. For about 20 minutes, he kept drifting off, then waking up etc.... I gave up at 6am.
I think this is fine. I'm sure that if you keep going he will eventually get the message. This is what I did with Jacob.
6. Are you following everything exactly as they did at the clinic? ( or is this not possible now you are home and if not , which bits aren't you doing?)
Pretty much exactly, they had an exhaust fan in the room that was pretty noisy, we have the radio on static, not quite the same noise but close. He was also in a bassinet, now he's in a cot.
Does he have a favourite soft toy, to go to sleep with? It is quite a good idea to introduce one, of your choice, before he decides to become attached to your best nightie or grubby old tea towel!!! (not that you have anything that is grubby!! :lol: ). It's just that they can pick the stuffed animal up and pop it over their eyes independently to block out any stimuli, which could help Oscar to sleep and get back off when he wakes . Do you block out stimuli with your hands over his eyes if not? I do both with Jacob when necessary. It really helps.
You have done so well getting him to have all those sleeps! CONGRATULATIONS!! :D :lol: :D
For 4-6 months they should have4-6 hours sleep as naps.
xxx
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Thanks Cheryl! You are so kind and helpful. I will see how he goes next month when we begin solids (looking forward to that!). I'm going to take it really easy and slowly though - just incase he has any food intolerances like Mum. I'm sure his wake ups are habitual! He really needs us to resettle him - we'll try to ease off the rocking later on.
I was up at 5.15 this morning, rocking for about 25 minutes!! Arggghhh - but he went back to sleep until 6.30 so that's okay.
We have a sheet over his end of the cot (sounds funny but it's pegged to the cot etc) and it blocks out any stimuli. We rock the cot from behind, he can't see us. He has his 'snuggeze' which is a proper 'blankie' with a dog's head! He's not really into it yet but it's been in his cot for a while now and he sometimes looks at it when he's nodding off. He can't hold it though because his arms are in the swaddle!. Swaddling has been the best thing for him, sometimes he's closed his eyes whilst I'm wrapping him up - so cute.
The clinic said it was fine to feed him at night - they didn't really go into that too much - they seemed to think he would need his night feeds for a while yet? I don't know......I think I'll 'review' that one later.....
We are having some friends over tonight for dinner - the first time in 6 months! We haven't been able to do it before because Oscar was in our arms!! Finger's crossed he doesn't hear us talking too much and get disturbed. We'll have to ask them not to laugh too loud! (how insane is this baby life....?!)
Hope you and big Jacob are doing better now with that flu thingy.....xxx
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Hi! Sounds as though you're doing everything right. It's so lovely when they enjoy being swaddled. Jacob used to do this sometimes! Oh yes and also when they come off you after a feed and smile..aww! I do miss it sometimes! Jacob never did that when bottle fed.
Wow, having friends over, that's great! Have a brilliant time! :D :lol: :D. Oh don't fret about the 5.30 wake up...actually Jacob woke at that time today, doesn't usually (maybe he's in caahoots with Oscar :wink: naughty naugthy) He wanted to be fed the little toad, but did go back for another hour. Think he's pretending to have another growth spurt. You sound much cooler and in control now. :D
I am really frustrated with the nursery. :roll: Although they are very good, in a lot of ways..caring, give the bubs a lot of 1-1 attention, look after Jacobs health well etc, BUT they just don't get it about how IMPORTANT SLEEP IS!!!! :evil: Yesterday he had one little nap of 30mins and again today -he was there for the morning - 25 mins. They said he had been fine happy, but when I got him home he was so overtired, I had to renap him he didn't sleep well for his pm nap and he wasn't as happy as usual. I've explained so many times, talked about the books, Tracy, the bw website, even leant them a video, suggested I come in and show them the techniques......I can't think what else I can do without sounding like a nag or what else would help. They don't have bubs themselves, & can only think that they just don't understand and never will until they do!!!!! Sooorryyy to go on just wanted to have a vent.
Hope you have a great night :D
xxx
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Hi! We had a great night, thank you. I put Oscar down at 7.45 and he didn't peep until 10.30, which is when he was due for a feed. It was good actually, as it kind of ended the evening and I went to bed! He had a pretty good night too - didn't wake up until 3.30am for another feed, then kind of 'stirred' throughout the night (not sure of the times but was aware that he was stirring) but kept going back to sleep. We had HUGE winds last night and so the window was banging away and DH accidentally let a door SLAM this morning when he left for work at 6am but Oscar (stirred) didn't actually get up until 7am?! Brilliant. Let's hope it's not a one-off.
That is frustrating for you (nursery). Sounds like you've done all you can. I have to admit, I'm surprised they listen to you at all, I can't imagine any day-care here even giving it a go? It must be a special nursery that you've chosen? I imagine that they don't quite get it though - does anyone unless you've been there yourself? I know my friends and family don't understand my obsession with Oscar's sleep. I was having a chat with my Dad the other day, who was surprised when I said that Oscar's awake time was 2 hours...he actually said....'can't you just keep them up all day so they sleep at night?'. Obviously he played a very small role in our upbringing!! Grrrr :roll:
It breaks your heart when they are quiet from lack of sleep doesn't it? :( I hate seeing Oscar like that!
I am going to a toy party (like a tupperware party!) on Sunday. My first 'outing' with other Mums. The starting time is 10am though so I will be very late as Oscar is always napping at this time. I find that lots of 'baby' meetings etc are in the mornings and I can rarely make them! I don't know when other people's babies sleep!!?
I hope today went better for Jacob and his nursery nap? Wish I could offer advice, but, as usual, I am the dummy here......xxx
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Glad you had a brill night, and well done Oscar! Don't know if you've been following any of hana1978's threads, (she is having a bad time of it) but she mentioned about the clocks going back which got me thinking, I don't want to be getting up at 5.30 instead of 6.30. Think I may try to creep Jacobs bedtime on a bit!
You are not a dummy!!! You are a lovely devoted mummy. :D
When you said you had huge winds last night I thought 'oh no you poor thing!' then realised you meant the weather! :lol:
Think it is good that you are making some noises (& I don't mean the wind! :lol: ) - so Oscar doesn't get too used to the quiet.
xx
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:D I usually do have huge winds (ever since giving birth for some reason!) but I was talking about the weather!!
I was naughty this morning and fell asleep with Oscar after his morning feed, we got up at 7.30 which has mucked up his body clock a bit - I can tell because he's getting tired at the wrong times. Really cranky with myself for doing it! Oh well, live and learn....... Maybe I should actually 'sit up' or something. It's so yummy having him fall asleep in my arms after booby, but not worth the consequences!
I haven't been following anyone's posts - i will have a look around now. I need some activity ideas as Oscar is getting bored with his current toys! I didn't even think about daylight savings (is that what you call it there?!) - that would muck things up a bit for them! You have quite extreme daylight hours in your summer don't you? I remember going to bed at some crazy time like 10.30pm and it still being light outside - bizarre!! How on earth do your babies know when it's night!?
Hey - i know you are a busy lady so if you want to slow down these posts to me - just do it!! I love chatting to you but don't want to be a burden!
xxx
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Hi, started trying to alter Jacobs routine, towards 7-7. He's not keen and demands his milk just before 6 whatever! We lowered his cot base too, cos I think he is about to start trying to stand! He's crawling around everywhere now! It's really cute.
Think there is something wrong with one of my rabbits. Got to go and check in a minute. Looks as thought there is some blood on her rump. Hope it's not serious. Trouble is, I'm ashamed to say, I'm not as vigilant with them as I used to be, now I've got Jacob.
You're not a burden....but I guess I ought to be helping out a bit more on here! It's been great getting to know you, I call people on here "my virtual friends!"
Gotta go now, loads of washing up and stuff to do, plus checking out the bunny.
xxx
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I hope bunny is okay? I'm a cat person and my puss has been a bit neglected too - only with cuddles but I still feel bad. She doesn't seem the least bit interested in Oscar - never has been, as though he's always been there!
It's been lovely to chat to you too. Send me a PM anytime you want! I'm pretty lonely over here so don't mind a chat now and then!
I have no doubt that I will have some Oscar-challenges soon so I will probably post again! He is still not the champion sleeper but things are manageable, as long as I get early nights, otherwise I'm stuffed as he wakes up a fair bit at night - even if he just makes noise but puts himself back to sleep - it disturbs me etc. Think he'll need to go to his own room soon!
I can't wait for Oscar to crawl - I can see he's getting frustrated with lying on the ground all the time!! His tummy-time is good but he's a long way off actually moving.
Take care.....xxxx
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Hi, just thought I'd let you know that I think the bunny's going to be ok, although she has been pretty badly wounded. Vet thinks it may have been a cat attack (I do still like cats though!). Trouble is she is just an ordinary bunny, I used to keep english lops, they were like small dogs and would chase off cats or dogs! but she would run away rather than stand her ground.
I'm so glad you are enjoying Oscar now, it's all such an interesting journey, having a bub.
Look let me know if you get stuck with anything or want to have a chat and let me know how you get on.
lol cherylxxx
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I know cats can be evil - it's just cat-nature but it's a trait i don't like either!
I'm stuck already!!!
For the last 2 days, Oscar has resettled himself for his day naps (that is, after 40 mins, he makes a bit of noise then goes back to sleep). I was thrilled with this, and surprised. He has been having two 1.5 hour naps and a 45 min nap around 5pm.
Today though, for his first nap this morning, he did 40 mins and wouldn't let me extend this - he wasn't crying, he was yelling - an angry yell. He was very tired still but I got him up and made him stay up for his 2 hours anyway. He was quiet and red-eyed. I don't know what happened today - the only thing I did differently was wrap him a slightly different way because he's been getting out of my other wraps. I don't know if this would be the problem?? It wasn't tighter or anything, I just wrapped each arm separately instead of together (they showed us this technique in Adelaide) - sounds funny but I hope you know what I mean....
The other 'dilemma' is the mornings. He seems to stir around 5.30 but goes back to sleep until around 6.15 or so. I accept this time so I get him up and bring him into bed to feed him. The problem is that he goes back to sleep after the second booby and doesn't show any signs of wanting to wake up. I have been literally picking him up and trying to wake him slowly but it's hard because I would personally like to sleep longer too but once I've fed him, it throws the day out if I let him sleep. Eg: Say he's fed at 6.30am, then sleeps until 7.30am, he would go down at 9.30am. On the 4hr EASY, he'd be due for a feed at 10.30am, so his nap would be only an hour! I suppose the answer is just to get him up after the feed anyway.
Sorry to be a pain again! Why, oh why, do I find all this so damn hard?? :oops:
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Hi there
How old is your lo at this stage?
It sounds like you're in a pretty similar situation to us when we started on this plan. Our lo was just over 3 months.
I found the posting by I think its Jennifer such a help. We were doing the PU PD but holding her until she settled and then putting her down the way it said in the article. However, once we started not holding, literally just picking her up and putting her down (pretty much like weight lifting!) things started to gradually improve. I find that if she begins to settle I turn her on her side towards me and stroke her forhead and back just shushing or making soothing noises. This helps to calm her down completely. If she gets hyper again, I do the PU PD again and continue until she settles a bit and then do the stroking. The cycle continues. She's now 5 months and at night time she settles no problem. Naps are still a major issue, but we're getting there. It helped getting her on the four hour easy schedule also.
Let me know if I can be of any more help. I hope I'm not just repeating whats gone before, my lo is in the middle of a bad head cold so don't have time to read through the other replies!
Lots of hugs in your direction. Don't despair. And don't give up on it. It'll only make things even more difficult to get sorted and leave you feeling even more guilty.
xx
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Hmm sorry, I was a bit slow in typing, you've gotten a few replies since :oops:
Don't despair, trust me, I went through the whole, crying while walking in the park, almost willing to give my baby to a stranger thing, which was a bit worrying for dh!!
It really is hard, you are not alone in the struggle. It doesn't make you a bad mother.
I've heard that sitting your baby up wakes them immediately!! I've tried and it works. Even if you just have some quiet play.
Our system is not quite easy at this stage. Sarah will only have 30 min naps at one go. So she eats, has activity, has a 30 minute nap, more activity, if we're lucky another 30 minute nap and then eats again. I guess its all trial and error. I've tried everything to extend the naps, but 30 minutes seem to be all she needs for a while anyway.
Hope this helps and I'm not just rambling!
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So, is Oscar 5 1/2 months now?
I think for this age, most bubs do 2 naps, but I don't want to muck uo the stuff which you did at the clinic. Jacob would do three, but only because the first 2 were 45mins each. For a 6 month old it should be 2 naps of 1-2 hours and 12 hours at night. I'm not sure when Oscar goes to bed. Just wondering if this would affect the time he goes back to sleep.
I think if it was me, I wouldn't worry too much about him going back for that extra hour, I think eventually he will drop that moring feed and sleep right through, although not for a while yet, so you will really benefit. I would just feed him a bit later instead, when he wakes and just adjust the rest of his routine. I 've found that I i've caught up time eventually by the afternoon and the routine is abck in order.
Gotta go speak again soon.
xx
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Have you seen the number of views this post has had? - well over 3000! Wonder what the highest number has ever been?
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Thanks Mirshine - It helps to hear other Mum's feeling the same way. I have been starting my day in tears lately and this is a worry because 'all-up' things are better. I think i may be PND - might have a look on the PND boards. I am not keen to go the GP because I'm not keen to go on antidepressants. I just feel it's the loneliest job in the world! I love my baby so much, and I know we're blessed but I'm finding it to be a really tough job. I guess when you go to work, you have colleagues around you and other people often doing the same job as you etc but having a baby, especially with no family around, is really all your own job and sometimes it feels so overwhelming and isolating. Anyway....enough of the sad stuff - people must think i am such a basket case. I will try your suggestion of sitting him up!
Cheryl - I hear what you are saying. The clinic knew that we would be changing things soon, given that he was close to six months. They sort of said "oscar will let you know when he's ready to drop the short nap etc) Yeah, right!!
Apart from yesterday, he's been doing two naps (1.5-2hours) and the shorter nap of 45 - 1 hour. So....his last nap sees him get up around 5.00 - 6.00pm, so he will go to bed 2 hours after this, say anywhere from 7 - 8 pm. I wonder if his last nap is too late in the day? I guess to change his schedule to only 2 naps in the day, I would have to extend his wake time? How do I do this? I mean, how long should he be up for at 6months? Blah blah - sorry - this is never-ending. No wonder it's gotten so many views!!! It's embarrassing!
He's all over the place - up at 5am this morning, I spent the next hour getting him back to sleep but he resisted until 6.20am so I fed him and we slept together till 7.30 - thus throwing the 4 hour EASY out again! Grrrrr!
I must be a bit dumb because I didn't understand your suggestion about feeding him early and letting him sleep the extra hour, then feeding him later?
Cheryl - if you want to be tough - tell me to go read the book!! I don't want to keep taking up your time!!!
xxx
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Oscar's mom -
My son is one year old this week, and we just started Tracy's sleep program after I had almost given up on ever sleeping again.
We have had some good progress, but still have some roadblocks to overcome. I am particulary worried b/c I am three months pregnant with the next bundle o' joy. Imagine THOSE nights if Zach does not learn how to sleep better!
So, after the nanny unilaterally decided to alter one of Tracy's methods I asked her to implement today - and her modification backfired, I did what every mature woman does -- I called my mom in tears. :cry:
After we got off the phone, a close family friend called her and sensed something was "off" in her voice. My mom told her the situation, and Debbie laughed and said, "EVERY first mom feels lost sometimes! I cried so much over my daughter's sleep problems . . ."
For whatever reason, it finally hit me that those first time moms that say that have it all figured out -- sleeping, feeding, discipline, etc. -- are either crazy or lying. :wink:
Also, a few weeks ago, I was feeling like NOBODY else I knew had sleep problems b/c they all said their babies "just started sleeping through the night on their own." Well, when I asked for more details b/c I was trying to figure out how it was so EASY for them, I realized that every one of them had some difficulty teaching their child to sleep. And some of those who said their babies "slept fine" - they consider 7 total nighttime hours of sleep "fine" for babies that are six months or older.
Lastly, I did find Tracy's latest book pretty easy to follow. I have to say, I had a hard time figuring out a step-by-step approach for "sleep training" with the first two. But after reading certain chapters in the last book, which I was able to implement despite my own sleep deprivation, I have seen some very encouraging improvement. I did just post some questions, but I never would have made this progress without Tracy's wonderful advice.
Good luck.
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Thank you Briana - your words were very encouraging. I need to read Tracy's book again - I have put it on the shelf for a while as I felt like all my spare time was taken up reading about it and it stressed me out more. But now I have more specific problems, I should give it another shot!
I love the name Zach - Oscar was going to be a Zach.
xx
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Jane, I didn't realise you were still feeling so low. I guess with the lack of sleep, you are bound to be feeling like this. I felt depressed too when I was doing night feeds. It's fine you're not taking up too much of my time, I like chatting too. I would never tell you (or anyone for that matter) to toughen up. Where do your family live? I know you live in the middle of nowhere, but I was wondering if there are any mum and babe groups which you could go to, to meet other people? It must be really hard not being near family. I wish you lived closer, I'd say pop over for a cup of tea or coffee.....or a glass of wine... or two (hmm, now there's a thought!). What work did you used to do before Oscar?
Things have been going to pot with Jacobs nap routine over the past week. Again, because the nursery can't get him to nap in the morning he has been coming home very very tired. Then won't sleep or if he does its back to the 45 min napping. Thought I'd give wake to sleep another go (worked the first time but not the second) Wish I hadn't !! I woke the poor thing up! Then spent 20mins doing pu/pd! Oh well.
Oscar sounds very much like Jacob. I wouldn't worry about the fact that he sometimes wakes up at different times. Jacob does this too. I think there are lots of variables, like how many naps they've had, how much stimulation, what they've been doing and how they are feeling. After all they are little people!! :lol: Sometimes Jacob will wake happy and play but at other times he will wake up crying! I think its ok though if you want to try to get him to go back to sleep if its too early.
I know I didn't really make myself very clear about the routines & stuff. I'll carry on a bit laterxxx
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Hi, Really, you are doing really well on the napping front, you are achieving more than I did at that age. :D So lets see, I'll try to explain what I meant. I think at the moment your routine goes something like this: ( correct it as necessary)
6.30 milk
8.30 nap 1.5 /2hrs
10.30 milk
12.30 nap
2.30 milk
4.30 nap - 45 mins
6.30 milk
7.00 bedtime
so if he still has milk at 6.30am but goes back to sleep until 7.30, it might look like this:
6.30 milk, sleep until 7.30
9.30 nap - if he wants to sleep 1.5 hours, I'd let him, but wake him before the 2 hour mark, so you can catch up
11.00 milk
11.30 nap - 1.5 hours
1.00 awake
3.00 milk
3.00/just after milk nap - timing will be variable, but if he is tired because he has not had 2x2hours he can catch up
4.00 awake
6.00/7.00 depending on how hungry he is - milk
7.00 ish - bedtime.
Does this make sense? So he will still have 4 feeds 4 hours apart ( well, one is 4 1/2 hours, but that's ok) plus 2 hours awake times with 1.5 hour naps.
I think what is important is getting the four feeds in, and the 2-3 naps, not sticking to times too rigidly. Jacobs days are different and this is ok. You can train them to stick to times, but I think this will come with time.
I think things will get easier regards to night feeds when he's established on solids, so not long to go. :D
Haven't had time to check it all through so I hope it is right.
Hang in there. xxx
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so if he still has milk at 6.30am but goes back to sleep until 7.30, it might look like this:
6.30 milk, sleep until 7.30
9.30 nap - if he wants to sleep 1.5 hours, I'd let him, but wake him before the 2 hour mark, so you can catch up
11.00 milk
11.30 nap - 1.5 hours
1.00 awake
3.00 milk
3.00/just after milk nap - timing will be variable, but if he is tired because he has not had 2x2hours he can catch up
4.00 awake
6.00/7.00 depending on how hungry he is - milk
7.00 ish - bedtime.
Hi Cheryl! Thanks again for your help. With the second scenario (quoted above) - I think you meant activity at 11.30, because he went down at 9.30 for a nap.
I think I might have to just play each day by ear, and as you say, not get too hooked up on times because every day is proving to be different! I'll show you what happened yesterday.
6.15am wake and feed and fall asleep again!
7.30am Up
9.30am Nap (i gave him a top up here so he wouldn't wake hungry!)
11.30am Up and feed
1.30pm Nap
3.30pm Up and feed
5.30pm Nap
6.15pm Up
7.30pm Feed
8.30pm Bed
So....I did 'catch up' on feeds - but his 'bedtime' is later than usual. He ended up waking up 9.30pm, 10.30pm (feed), 2am(feed) and 5am. I put him back to sleep at 5am (rocked the cot till 5.30am!!) and he slept till 7.30am!!?? You would presume that he would be hungry since his last feed was at 2am? NUP - not too interested at all. :roll: He was grizzly this morning too and tired so he went to bed at 9.20am for his nap.
I know that I am the problem here - I am totally a control freak and like to know what to expect. I would also like to put Oscar to bed at 7ish each night, but as you can see, it just doesn't work unless he gets up at 6.30am! So, maybe I have to accept that each day will be different. At least there's no screaming when we put him down for a nap, sometimes he smiles when I'm wrapping him and that's lovely.
The nights are hard, I really am getting VERY tired but hopefully it's not for a long time to come too. I wish you could come over for a drink too (Gin and Tonic is my choice!). I am still very down, I'm not sure if I can do too much about that (other than adopt your attitude which is very hard if your not that way inclined!). Lack of sleep, huge belly guts, thinning hair, being isolated from family, horror-mones etc....it all plays a part.
It's more of a roller coaster ride - there are parts of the day when I'm happy - and Oscar really is a beautiful little man, so I'm lucky in many ways, I know. :)
I say Tracy on our pay-tv yesterday (health channel). I loved watching her but it made me very sad too.....
xxxx
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Yea, that was a load of rubbish I wrote,wasn't it?!! :lol: what it should have been is:
so if he still has milk at 6.30am but goes back to sleep until 7.30, it might look like this:
6.30 milk, sleep until 7.30
9.30 nap - if he wants to sleep 1.5 hours, I'd let him, but wake him before the 2 hour mark, so you can catch up
11.00 up & milk
1.00 nap 1.5 hours
2.30 up & milk
4.30 nap -45 mins
5.15 up
6.30/7.00 depending on how hungry he is - milk
7.15 - bedtime.
So that would mean he would have
- 2 naps at 1.5 hours
- 1 nap at 45 mins
- 4 feeds during the day
-Still be in bed by 7pm.
I've made up the time by limiting naps to 1.5 hours, but you may not want to do this. You might also be able to gradually bring his bedtime back a little each night, if you stuck to the 2 hour naps and see if that works instead, he would probably need to be woken early from that last nap though.
Watching Tracys programmes makes me very sad too. Where does your family live?
xxx
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Hello...yup, that makes sense. I see that I would have to cut back his naps to 1.5 hours. Last couple of days, his am nap has been 1.5 but his pm nap has been 2 hours (had to get him up!).
He did the same today as yesterday, that is, woke up at 6ish, then tossed and turned, napped until 7.30am. AGAIN - was not interested in milk?!! I can only guess that he is too excited to start the day as he's not upset, just not interested. He was a bit excited at 3am too, that was fun (not!).
My family are in Canberra - down south. We are smack-bang in the middle of Australia and as all the other other cities are place around the edge, it's a long way to any of them. It would be about 5 hours of flying.
xxxx
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:roll: Hello again - he seems to be getting harder to resettle at the 40 minute mark too - weird because I had about 3 days where he did the 1.5 hours on his own (so I thought 'yippee!' no more 40 minute resettling!). Man, oh, man.........this is just too hard!
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Hi, o dear! I found that Jacob would get the hang of it, then forget and we'd have to work a bit more on it. I think they do forget and regress a bit but the main thing is that it will come back if you stick to what you are doing. It's only when you change the plan that the unwanted behaviour will persist. I'm sure you'll be back on track in no time :)
That's great that he didn't want his milk, sounds as though he may be willing to give up a night feed?
Yea, 5 hours flying is a long way
xxx
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Hi again.....I'm finding I'm getting a bit anxious about the approaching 6mth mark and what I should be doing with naps etc...
I read some more of Tracy's book but still am a bit unclear!!
I've read the schedules of other 6mth old babies and it's so different from Oscar's and he's nearly that age?!
As you know, I am doing 2 hours up, 2 hours down but I know I should work towards two naps in the day only. What do you think Oscar's awake time should be? What's the MAX maybe? That might be easier for me! ie no more than 2.5 hours. I know, I know....every baby is different.
I feel like I'm not good at reading any 'signals'!! Anyway.......got to go and watch Neighbours...bye bye
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Hi! I think its still supposed to be 2 hours of awake time, although I need to have a good think about it, ie how it fits into a routine, although with Jacob he always seemed to find this hard to cope with, he always wanted to have shorter awake times with frequent naps up until he was about 7months. I think it does depend on personality. I think your routine is sounding quite good, adn I wouldn't worry too much about trying to change it just yet. Although I would still experiment a bit, with trying to get his bedtime to around 7ish.
I also think it is normal for them to regress at day 3. I know you have been doing the routine for a while, but I am right in thinking this was the first time he had done it consistently for a few days in a row?
xxx
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Hi - maybe.....? Who knows...! I'm certainly not a baby whisperer!
I read a post yesterday from someone who finds that her baby is always changing/regressing. I think Oscar is the same.
I honestly think I could post new issues to you almost every day!
Better not though.............xxx
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Hello, me again :) . I didn't really follow 4 hour easy properly, until Jacob was about 6 months. I tended to let him take the lead. Yea I don't think its all that clear in the book - about what to do at 6months. However, I think it might go something like this:
oops Jacob awake will finish later!
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I'm back,
7.00 up and milk (Oscar won't want to go straight back to sleep as he gets older)
9.30 nap - 1.5 hours
11.00 up & milk
2.00 nap - 2hours
4.00 up & milk
7.00 milk and bed
so that's 2 naps and 4 milk feeds.
When he's weaned it may go something like this:
7.00 up and milk (Oscar won't want to go straight back to sleep as he gets older)
9.00 breakfast
9.30 nap - 1.5 hours
11.00 up & milk
1.00 dinner
2.00 nap - 2hours
4.00 up & milk
5.30 tea
7.00 milk and bed
Thes are just my thoughts, not from tracy's book.
Basically what i do with Jacob is to do 4x milk feeds, plus 3x meals, so in effect he is being fed every 2 hours. ( although breakfast is really close to the first milk feed, cos I have to go to work, but it works for J ok) I don't stick to it religiously, so if he wants to sleep through a milk feed I let him and just give it when he wakes, which works, cos he likes his food, may not work with all bubs though. this then allows time for 2 naps am,pm for up to 2 hours each.
(seems like work is the word of the day! :lol: )
Jacobs not very well, got a hacking cough and I think he's just begining to wake from his nightime sleep now - he must know when I'm on the BW website!
Have to go again. I think you are turning into a baby whisperer, you just don't know it yet! And yes it's fine to ask more stuff, if I can't answer it , i'll tell you :) xxx
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Thanks Cheryl - I find your 'schedules' easy to follow! Oscar had the perfect day yesterday - everything timed nicely - 2 x 2 hour naps, a 45 minute nap late arvo and in bed at 8.00pm! Of course the night wasn't great but hey..... :)
He's now hungry again when he wakes (i woke him up at 7.15am because I didn't want to start the day late again!
Sorry to hear Jacob's not too well - it must be hard to hear them cough? I'm so lucky (touch wood), Oscar has not even had a cold or anything really. I know the day will come.......probably helps that he doesn't mix with other children! (no, he's not a prisoner, I just haven't joined any mummy's group yet!).
Thanks again.......xxxxx
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wow! sounded like a great day :D I think things fluctuate all the time. Some days you really feel like you are achieving, and the next few, not. But it always comes full circle again when things are good. If I have a bad napping experience, I try to remember how good things can be, then try to forget it ,thinking it'll be tomorrow soon!!!
Muzzy's (bunny) botty's better! Now that's a tongue twister!!
Took Jacob to the gp again (I swear they will class me as munchausens by proxy soon) I'm always there....trouble is with your first bub you never really know how ill they really are or what to do. Any way he said it was just viral. I'm still not completely over my bug either and DP is going down with flu symptoms again. I think it must be something environmental, or just really resistant bugs. We need a really cold winter I think. Any way don't want to bore you with all of that.- :wink:
What did you used to do before Oscar?
xxxx
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It's not boring at all! I like hearing about other peoples issues, good, bad, or indifferent! Makes a nice change from me talking about me (which, I know, is totally fascinating!).
I don't blame you - i went to the dr's when Oscar was pulling his ear. Nada. Honestly, the minute he gets a sniffle......I'll be there, in the surgery, making sure he doesn't touch anything and get more germs.... :roll: I cringe when I see the toy area at the doctor's because I know there will come a day when I can't stop him from playing with them and I will be sitting there fretting, imaging all the sick little germs he will be touching!! Ugghhhhh! My husband is the same - we are both so precious with him! Poor Oscar will be afraid of everything. (i will not let him know my fears.... :wink: ).
Is your GP good-looking? Maybe he thinks you fancy him. I had to read up on munchausens by proxy - I have heard of the syndrome before, but not the name. I don't think you are in danger of being classed as that!
I was in recruitment/HR before becomming a house mummy. I've never really enjoyed it that much so I don't miss it! In fact, I could quite happily never work again! I do get bored.......not 'bored' as such.......tired of being in the house I guess. I haven't found my dream job yet - I think I'd like to work from home. I used to want to be a journalist (didn't apply myself well at school so that went out the window fast!), a naturopath or a dietician. (my first job was a Vet Nurse!)
What do you do? Besides being a BW guru........?!xxx
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PS The chiropractor that we took Oscar too was really good-looking, a young Canadian . I tried to tell Mark that I needed to go and get my back looked at but he wouldn't buy it, said I could see the 'other' chiropractor. :x
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He,he!! Guess your DH saw through yuor little plan eh? :wink:
That is wierd - my first job was as a Vet Nurse! I worked on the moors with both farm and domestic animals, did my training but after 4 years developed some sort of skin thing - it was horrid! Apparently due to using all the disinfectants etc. I had to wear cotton gloves permenantly for several months. When I used to go out clubbing I'd wear long evening gloves to cover them up!! I eventually got fed up with it and decided to do something different ( the pay was crap anyway); so I trained as an Occupational Therapist and have been doing that ever since (13 years). I am working in a community mental health team now, but have been offered a post a bit closer to home, not sure what to do really....
Yea, know what you mean about the yucky toys in Drs surgeries....
xxxx
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Actually I could quite easily not work again, well for a few years anyway! I'd have though HR would have been quite an interesting job. (Not as good as not working at all though! :wink: )
Oh no my GP is far too old! I hope he doesn't think I fancy him! :lol:
That's funney too :lol: I took Jacob to the drs for exactly the same thing - ear pulling! maybe all bubs do it for the attention!!!
I think you must be a very dedicated DW to have given up everything to follow your DH into the dessert (i'm never sure how you spell that(!), I mean the hot place, not a bowl of treacle tart and custard) It's all rather romantic........
off to bed now
xxx
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Well I have spent the day in tears! My friend is convinced I have PND. I'm not so sure though. I've actually been 'tired' for about 1.5 years now and it's really getting me down, I'm positive that if I felt better physically, I would be much happier. But, of course, being a new Mum, people are sure it's baby-related. I won't go on but I have been to many, many doctors and alternative practitioners and nothing has helped. My naturopath thinks it must be chronic fatigue, only because they can't find anything else. :cry:
Sorry - just had to get that out! You probably think I'm a whinging hypochondriac.
Anyway......the desert (one 's' for 'sand'!) is hardly romantic (i think you might be the ol' romantic here....!). We are in a small town and it's hot, dry, dusty and there's MILLIONS of flies! Sticky, annoying flies that hover around your face! I swear they target you and don't let up. I've had one follow me all around the newsagent, I had to leave because it would leave me alone! (true story - must have been working for the shop to stop people 'reading' the mags, which I was doing!). :roll: . Trust me, it's a hard place to live, not romantic! What is romance anyway? I'm sure I haven't seen it since I got married!? I actually encouraged the move here as it meant we would be better off financially and his career prospects better. We both gave up a lot really - family, friends, good coffee shops....actually, shops in general! Hopefully, we made the right decision. Time will tell.
You sound like a REAL vet nurse, I was more of a pooper-scooper and receptionist. It was not the job I thought it would be!
HR can be interesting - I think you need to really enjoy 'people' to like it though. I'm more of a 'behind-the-scenes' gal I think. I like people, and LOVE it when I can help someone, but I'm very bad at concealing my own moods and opinions sometimes! You know....the whole fake smile thing, I'm not good at that! Obviously - YOU are good with people! What an admirable career you have.
Oscar has had a funny couple of days - not great with sleeps and grizzly at other times - he's been harder to put down too. Hopefully a stage.
If you're ever in Australia, you must come and visit, I'll introduce you to the flies....! he he
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Oh no, Jane, I didn't realise that you have been feeling so tired for so long. I have a friend who is just recovering from chronic fatigue after a very long time, but she is recovering and thinking about going back to work soon. No wonder you are finding all the baby stuff so hard. And it is hard, but to be feeling the way you do at the same time.... honestly you are doing such a great job. I don't know a great deal about CFS, have you had the energy to look into what is recommended, or does everyone have a different opinion about it?
I know most Drs know very little, or seem to be quite blase about it, which isn't helpful. Did anything significant happen in your life 1.5 years ago? ( must have been just before you got pregnant) ( you can pm me if you want).
Oh yucky yuk! those flies sound rather nasty! So I guess DH has a permenant post there. Is it a possibility to stay there for a couple of years or so, make some money then move back closer to family?
Yea, you do have to put your own stuff on hold, in my job, but I don't really mind that, unless something really bad has happened, then it is tough. The new job i've been offered is about 10 mins down the road and less pressured than my current post (lots of drugs and alcohol), but my team are so lovely and the manager is great too (best lot I've ever worked with), so there's a lot at stake. Not quite the same risks as you took, but I really need to think about it hard.
I'd put money on it being a phase- with Oscars naps, Jacob is just going through a similar thing but -crawling round and around his cot...me picking him up putting him down again... needing me to be there until he is almost asleep, but he is still unwell, so I'll let him off! He's having a good nap this afternoon though- over 1.5 hours.
Oh,yes, as for the romance, that all went out of the window when the bub arrived, and still is!! :wink: never mind eh?!
xxx :D :D :D
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hi ladies,
you two have been a wonderful support to one another - for 19 pages! since it seems that this thread has boiled down to just the 2 of you, though, i'm going to lock it. i think for what you are trying to accomplish now, private messaging would be best.
although if any new issues arise, please post to the board for some help and advice!
:D