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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Mommy in Moose Jaw on January 06, 2006, 16:13:54 pm
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I hope someone can offer some insight or help with this one...
My dd (5.5 months) has basically got a good, predictable EASY schedule. We introduced solids a couple of weeks ago (loves bananas) which overall has helped regulate her day and night sleep pattern. I've been backwards and forwards over her routine and can't come up with an answer to this: At some point in the night, usually between 2-5 am, dd will wake up and have trouble getting back into deep sleep. I leave the little fusses and grunts and only go to her when she starts to get upset and then she settles easily with sh/pat. The problem is that even if I stay until she is in deep sleep, or if I leave her to go into deep sleep herself, she repeats this wake up every hour (or less) until 5am at which point she is ravenous and takes a full feed. She doesn't do this every night and often the worse nights she is better after a big toot (or she wakes up with a big toot). Is this just mostly a gas issue as it occurs about 3-4 hours after her DF or is this sounding like a feeding schedule wake-up and she is hungry at the 4-hour mark? She is BF and I have increased my supply during the day (still 4 /4 EASY with solids 3x as supplement 1-2 hours after bf) and can't think of an answer to this. The problem is that if she is basically awake for 2+ hours at night, she sleeps well past the normal 7am wake up to make up for the lost sleep, which sort of skews the routine the next day.
Any advice or insight??
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Hi there!
Would just like to say that your post is exactly like what I'm going through and would be interested to see some other replies. Feel free to PM me and we can compare notes!
Best of luck to you!
Sarah
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Hi I'm going through the same too with my 5.5 mth DS and it has been every night for over a week now, some nights he wakes at 2.30 ish and again at 5.00 is is fairly easy to settle but last night at 5.00 he just wouldn't settle and I ended up offering a feed of which he took 4 oz (I've not had to night feed for about 10 weeks). I thought maybe it's a growth spurt thing but I struggle to get anymore into Ollie in the day. He is on 8 oz feeds which are hit and miss (sometimes just take 6oz) I am also introducing weening with a rusk am and puree pm after the bottle. He always takes 8 oz on the DF!!
I don't know about you but I feel that pat/shush is becoming a prop as he just won't settle without that or me stroking his head :?
Would also welcome any ideas :)
Thanks Sarah
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I can't believe this. My 5.5 month DS is going through the exact same thing!!! Is this something that's normal for 5.5 month-olds?? No gas problems with DS, he just keeps waking between 2 and 5 repeatedly. He goes back to sleep with his paci, but wakes again. We will start weaning him from his paci next weekend. Any suggestions for good earplugs?! :wink:
Seriously, I would love to know why this is happening. Is it related to DS's paci addiction (any 12-step programs for this? :D ) or is it a developmental thing?
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First let me say I'm glad I'm not in this boat alone -- even though it's a boat I'd rather not be in!
I too have wondered about the sh/pat being being a prop, but sometimes dd will settle on her own at that hour. I have noticed the times she does not settle is when she has gas at the same time. Now what comes first, I'm not sure -- gas wakes her up or she wakes up and realizes she has gas. Either way, it makes it tougher for her to settle. That is a matter of self-soothing also though isn't it? Being able to go back to sleep following a little gas? I do know that settling her at night takes far longer than any other bedtime or naptime and she seems to need me there until deep sleep at that time. I'm not sure how to approach that. When we first started EASY, I had to stay with her until deep sleep for all sleep times and that gradually got better, so logic would predict this will eventually get better with the same response also??
I realize this may seem rambling but maybe it will strike a cord with you guys also and we can start to make some sense or come up with a plan.
One thing I keep thinking of is something that worked with my ds (he's now 6 years old). His worst point of sleep was 5 months old (this must be a tough age) and we introduced sleep training at that point, although differently. I took a modified Ferber approach and added 15 minutes per night before intervening. Meaning: if his shortest wake up was 45 min, I would respond at that time that night. The next night, I would respond at the 60 min mark, then 75, then 90. Eventually the entire night got worked out and I was only responding once per night (this is pre-BW era). It worked like a charm and I am thinking of doing this with DD. DS was never distressed and in fact would jump several increments in one night sometimes. And he was a TOUCHY baby by Tracy's definition.
Last night DD woke up at 1:45 and settled herself, then again at 2:45 and settled with little sh/pat then 3:15 again but didn't go to sleep again until I fed her at 5:00am. By that pattern, her shortest time was 30 min, so tonight I wouldn't respond and earlier than 45 min for each wake up. Of course, if she has a shorter one tonight, then that would be my starting point. I'm going to see how tonight goes (maybe last night was a glitch) and then I think I'm going to try this plan.
Incidentally, do either of your lo's sleep on their tummies at this point? Mine is still tightly swaddled on her back. I can't help but think that if she was on her tummy sometimes that would help push out some gas?
Any other thoughts??
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Wow - it IS a comfort to see all these similar posts! 5.5 months must indeed be a sucky, crappy time sleep-wise. :) I have TWO babies going through it right now and I'm now counting my sleep in minutes instead of hours. I used to say "if I get three hours, that's a good night", and now I long for those days....!!!
Seriously though, I have wondered the exact same things as you guys...gas waking them up or waking up and having gas; tummy sleeping instead of on side/back; needing to feed or not; etc. Question...if you were to put your LO to sleep on their tummy, how would you position them? I haven't tried it but it seems that with my two, they would lift their heads up immediately. Would you wait til they're asleep and then lay them down on their tummies and if so, what happened to falling asleep independently? Oh, so confused.....!!!!
Maybe we should each try a different experiment tonight and post our results...one of us try tummy sleep, one of us stop the swaddle, one of us give gas drops before bed, etc....??
Don't you guys wish there were baby behaviour consultants around to come visit and fix all our problems a la Tracy??
So glad to hear from you all....
Sarah
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Hi there,
I'm new to this and I don't really have a response to your situation but I'm hoping you can help me as my son is almost the same age (just 20wks).
Basically I'm not quite sure what methods to use in my situation (after reading and re-reading BW Solves Problems) as I don't know if it'll make the situation worse or if it's even applicable. I've been scanning/reading lots of threads to get an idea but... there's a couple of things
1. Since about 6wks, DS has been sleeping through night from 8-9pm until 3-4am (sometimes .5hr earlier or later too) when he would feed - basically 7-8hrs. He's still doing this. I try to give him dummy (pacifier) to see if he'll settle again or is hungry (?) and sometimes he'll re-settle but usually only for .5-1hr more. No problems for him returning to cot and he feeds for usually 20mins. I'm trying to work out if it's a habitual waking now or needs the feed. Should I be cutting this feed out or still ok as he seems to be feeding properly? Should I start the 11pm DF?
2. For the past couple of weeks, he's been difficult to get to sleep for the night (days are generally fine)... I or hubby usually try for up to an hour to get him to sleep and then if still not settling (crying hard, kicking legs etc) I'll let him up for activity (tummy time) for a short time to wear him out and try again. That usually works but by then it's close to 10pm and I don't want this to become a habit. Should I use pat/shush or PU/PD?
I think he might be teething (can't feel anything yet) as he's fussier and normally quite easy to please and handle. He's on 4hr routine (generally his waking is 7-8am) for about a month now... I'm trying to put in a more definite bedtime routine (like bath which was a shower in mornings, etc) as he's more aware now and to be putting him down by 8pm. I'm trying to increase my milk and then maybe decrease the 3am feed.
Sorry this is so long but I was trying to put anything I thought would help. I'm still reading through the Sleep Q&A document posted.
Cheers!
Rochelle
DS Liam - 18/8/05
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Good grief i came on linet o post about this verything. My Ds is 5 ish months and for several weeks now is waking up between 2 and 5am but rather than nodding on and off he stays awake for at least2 hours, sometimes 3, which is longer than he can manage inthe day!!! He isn't usually distressed and sometimes is even happy playing on his own but he makes a real racket and I can't sleep through it. I have stopped waking him for his dream feed as he used to do it then too but the effect of course is that he wants two feeds inthe night rather than just one now. He is the worlds worst feeder and i have been unsuccessful in getting any help at all with this. He breast feeds for two or three minutes and then looses interest for 4 hours. At nursery (i have returned to work) he will not take more than 2.5 oz from a bottle, then goes 4 hours and his solid intake is minute. I suspect these things are linked but i am at my wits end and so exhausted. He used to wake once or twice anight, feed and then go bakc to sleep. how i long for those days again! His day time sleep is fine, i have tried cutting it back b bit with the result being a cranky baby who still wakes for 2 hours a night! We don't do sh pat unless we are desperate as he can settle himself when he wants to. He is a tummy sleeper and his head comes up when we put him down, but we walk out of the rrom and leave him and when he is ready he liew down an falls asleep. It usually takes bewteen 5 and 15 minutes. i am not sure how much longer i can go on functioning on so little sleep and working too. especially when ds1 is up some nights too with wet beds or bad dreams. Still, good to know it is probably normal. just a pity there doesn't seem to be an answer. How long will this last do you think????
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Hi firstly Rochelle I would definatly introduce DF I introduced this at 20weeks to get rid of the night feed and in that respect it worked and he actually went through for a couple of weeks although as you will know from earlier post thats not the case now but at least your not having to warm bottles and sit there for 20 mins, although my DS wakes in the night, sometimes it's will only be for 5 mins.
Mommy in moose jaw and sarah o - last night Ollie woke as usual and he was very wriggley and eventually passed wind and this continued through the night, so I think that the theory is right, and I'm thinking it's to do with the change in digestion due to weening even though I have been avoiding foods that cause gas, this may seem like a wierd question but has yourR LO poop started to go hard. Ollie has a terible struggle at first then once he's past some the rest comes easy so there must be some changes going on down there (lovely topic)
Clare When I had my first (Amy now 5) I went back to work when she was 5 months and now you mention it she went from perfect sleeper to waking all the time and I put it down to seperation anxiety but perhaps it's just a five month thing, it should have a name like the terrible two's does.
Speak soon sarah
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I haven't been on in a while, but I just read this and know exactly where you're coming from! My son, 22 weeks, has the same issues on some nights. What we've done is put him on his tummy to sleep now. He now does a 10:30 df, and sometimes wakes once for his paci, but no more than that. I noticed that when he was on his back he squirmed a lot more and kicked his legs everywhere. I think he overstimulated himself! I know some people don't like putting babies on their tummies, but he's big enough to hold up his head and upper body and roll over, so I don't worry about it. Plus it's much easier to do pat/shh this way.
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Hello all. It seems Mothers around the world are wondering what the deal is at 5 months?? I wanted to respond to a few things and also offer a little insight from my night last night.
Sarah O -- just when I thought I had it tough, you have twice the difficulty!! I remember when I felt sorry for myself if I got 6 hours of sleep, now the usual 3-4 lately I'm thinking "not bad, I can get by on that!". I too have been wishing there was a behavior consultant built into postnatal care. Most of these theories, even as simple as NOT nursing to sleep, are not talked about at all in our postnatal care by doctors or health nurses. It's reallly trial and error in a time when we are not connected with people who have spend ages around babies.
Sarah Brown -- In answer to the poop thing, yes, my dd's poop has suddenly gotten much more solid over the last couple of days. Prior to solids, dd was bfo and had gone as long as 8 days without a bm. Since solids, bms were much more frequent and progressively more formed and now they're like big kid poop. So yes, I agree that weaning has produced some new changes and adjustments in the digestive system. And I swore I was never going to be one of THOSE moms who talked about poop!
Mothergloose -- I agree to start a DF as even though right now it doesn't really matter where in the night those feeds are, when it comes time to wean a feed, gradually backing up the df by 30 min at a time will be much easier to adjust to than eliminating a 3am feed. It also starts to set a pattern of what part of the night their tummies should be empty. You mentioned your lo is going to bed at 10pm. I wonder if he is sleeping too much in the day? Maybe a couple of nap hours could be moved to the night? As for resisting bedtime, On the times dd has really resisted nap or bed time, we will unswaddle her to see if she calms. If yes, reswaddle and start again. If no, walk out of the room until calm, then go back in and start again. Basically, keep taking steps until calm then repeat the bedtime process immediately. DD put up a real stink a couple of times then got the message that bedtime was non-negotiable no matter what and hasn't done that since. The couple of times I did take her out to try an activity seemed to set a precedent that she came to know I might eventually cave. And yes, I agree teething may be a possibility as I'm sure we had our first episode last week also. Apparently they can go up and down a lot before breaking through, so this may come and go for quite a while!
Eden's Mom -- you mentioned your lo stays awake and plays at night. Our dd did that too unless I stayed with her and did sh/pat. I was thinking it would be better to get her used to sleeping at that time rather than letting her stay awake and play. I notice that even though she seems happy, the entire routine starts to break down if she has missed sleep at night, the whole cycle of day sleep affecting night sleep, and vice versa. As for the tummy sleep, my MIL has a theory that not only would it help push out gas it helps babies feel cozy and secure as they sort of swaddle themselves as it eliminates flailing. Unfortunately my dd isnt' rolling so I'm leary to try that yet.
Now on to my observations (as I write a small novel -- sorry folks)....
Last night I decided to stay with dd until in deep sleep each time she woke (hence my only 3 hours of sleep!). The first time she woke was 1:37 and I did sh/pat until deep sleep. Then she woke again at 2:48 and I repeated the process except I left after she was sleeping for 5-10 min. She woke up before deep sleep and I had to go back in at about 3:05. This time I stayed until deep sleep and she slept until 6:15 am at which time she was jsut awake for the day cooing and babbling. I should have let her be, but I thought she may sleep a bit more if she was hungry so I fed her. She stayed awake at that point so I think I should have jsut left her until 7am. Anyways, what I noticed was that dd did have gas at night but I think it is only an issue as she lays there awake. If she was relaxed and sleeping I could hear the gas coming out without a problem. When she wakes, she gives an extra squeeze that makes it loud. She's not pulling her knees up like when gas bothers her so I think it's just that she notices the gas when she wakes.
As for addressing the problem. Supporting her into deep sleep seems EXACTLY like when I had to do it for nap times and getting her past that first sleep cycle of 45 min. As she was falling asleep again, she twitched a lot and would partially wake up. With her naps this gradually improved and she no longer does it. I am just going to resign myself to staying with her until deep sleep at waking for a few nights until she can do it herself like she learned with napping. Hopefully that will work.
Anyone else have any thought? Again, sorry for the novel!
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Hi mthyne,
I've just read your post and wondered my LO can roll front to back but not back to front and when he's on his front hold his head up for long periods (say 2 mins) so is this then ok to put on the front?
Sarah
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i just noticed this post, a few ideas to help you all... Yes it could be a growth spurt. Technically they say 6months, but both my boys did theirs more like 5 months.
Solids change the whole metabolism & the younger (ie before 6 months) the digestive system is (esp in bf babies) the more it "unsettles" them & changes their poop... my ds also went from once every 10days to 3x day when on solids.
They also get more mobile & so can "wake up" & sometimes want to play... the first 6-8 hours from bedtime (6/7pm physiologically) are usually the "deepest" sleep. Once they get past that stage they may not need as much sleep & the "night parties" are an indication that the day routine is needing "tweeking" That may not be more awake time, but more likely a change in "stimulation" things like reading stories, singing & moving their hands, sitting up (proping) to see more of the world,tummy time, sitting watching trees blow in the wind, longer bath times, they are able to take in more "stimulation" & need that extra time to "tire" the brain & body.
HTH
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Hmm. that's really an excellent point. I had noticed recently that dd could handle a lot more general activity than previous. Rather than having to keep her 'sheltered' when there was a lot of activity (ie big brother) she was more interested in what was going on, whereas before it would overwhelm her. I had been so concerned about the overstimulatioin of before I didn't consider MORE stimulation now. Also in the past few days (coinciding with the wake ups) dd has started making these funny aggressive prolonged grunts like she is frustrated. she no longer wants to stay in her carseat in outings and seems to get 'bored' with activities and need a change of activity sooner than before. I had been thinking she recently had an 'explosion' of mental development and awareness, so that is a very interesting thought. We'll see what tomorrow brings with a little more (gently of course) activity! Thanks!!
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This is my first time on the board. I wanted to ask for help. My 5.5 month old ds is waking constantly at night for the last month.There have been some good nights but these have been few and far between. We moved him from our bedroom to his nursery. The first few nights were great. He went to sleep independently and slpt right through. Then he started waking up a few times from about 2am but was easy to settle again. Now he doesn't settle so easy and i often have to resort to feeding him back to sleep. I had stopped the dream feed a bout 6 wks ago and he didn't need a feed again until 6-7am. He sleeps on his back. Sometimes he wakes for about an hr at a time. I did introduce a lot more foods at this stage too but feeding is well established now and it's stil going on. I'm back to work in 3 wks and am dreading that the nights will continue to be bad. This is probably all over the place but i wanted to give as much info as possible to see if anyone has suggestions. He's avery big boy too. Was 9lbs 7.5oz at birth. People think he's about 9 months old now. Any suggestions?
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Sarah Brown - my DS has only received cereal so far, and he has barely even received that, since I only manage to smear it on his lips. :) So I gave up yesterday for now, thinking that maybe the bit that made it into his mouth has caused him digestive issues and he's not ready. So last night's escapades could not have been caused by solids since he's not had any for 24 hours or more. So about last night....he was up once at 1am, then 3:20 - 5:50. I finally moved him downstairs to our P&P so that he wouldn't disturb his twin. So I don't know if the move got him to sleep or if he ran out of steam or if he just felt "better" because it was past the 2-5 horror timeslot.
Let's all keep each other posted, k? I'm going to try the advice given re: sleeping on tummy. It kinda makes me feel better to have a plan! :)
Sarah O
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That point about cereal sounds like my dd. She won't let it past her lips -- I have tried every cople of weeks for a while now. For a while the only thing she would eat was 'real' mashed bananas. In talking to a few other moms, several have said their lo's wouldn't go for cereal either. I found she really only likes 'real' food and sometime won't even go for baby food from a jar. I think it's just a food preference. Have you tasted that rice cereal?? I'm surprised any baby eats it :lol:
Just thought I'd let you know how last night went: DD made her first peep at 1:37am again (eery) and only needed help at about 1:50am. Prior to that I could hear her trying to go to sleep -- yawning, sucking her lips, mantra singing, etc. When I went to her she tried to grin at me and engage me but whenever I respond at night I never look her in the eye or talk and go right to sh/pat -- I found talking woke her up more. So I went to her and stayed there until deep sleep. It took 10-15min for her eyes to close but she was still as stone and then light sleep took more like 30 min as she re-woke once and had to start all over again. Once in deep sleep (2:42am) she slept the rest of the night until 8:30am. So she was awake for about 45 min total. The only problem with that is that once I have been up for so long I can't go back to sleep and it was nearly 6am before I fell asleep again, hence sleeping clear through to 8:30am! Today I am going to try a little more activity with her but keep up the same response at night and hope it continues to improve.
One incidental (maybe not so incidental) is that today she broke out in spots. I'm presuming chicken pox as big bro started spots on Christmas Day (he's 6 years old). I'm hoping this is going to be very mild but am watching her like a hawk.
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good greif alright, i thought i was the only one with this issue! i just discovered tracey's book and this website last week and it seems i have posted my questions about this very same issue in the wrong area (breastfeeding). i must conclude that this is a developmental stage and must be normal. i just check in with my friends with babies 8 months and they said they went through exactly the same issues at this age.
my daughter is still only bf, swaddled with one arm out and sleeps on her back. She started waking in the past 3 wks (normally slept through). i started the dreamfeed a few nights ago with no change. she takes a full feed at 4am. i refuse to feed before this but felt at my wits end about what to do. theorectically she should be able to sleep through.
my friends both suggested if i continue the dream feed to push the 4am feed later. so shh/pat when she wakes in the night and set a new rule no feed before 5am for example then slowely push later and later. they found this to work and their kids now sleep approx 7pm-7am. i must note it took them approx 5 days of sleepless nights to get into the new schedule but said it was worth it. i suppose if i dont dreamfeed it is reasonable she is hungry at 4am but otherwise she has 6 feeds a day which she souldn't need.
another point is my bub is so distracted during the day feeds because she wants to explore everything i thought perhaps she wasnt getting enough but she still lasts 4hrs between feeds so maybe it is habit.
anyway my bub has been waking numerous times through the night like the rest of you, i've done the shh/pat and got it down to only the 4am wake-up and will work on this tonight.
your suggestions are welcome but i say it must be a stage we have to perservere with or another learnt habit from us visiting the room more often or both.
thank goodness i have discovered the 5.5mth mums i was about to go crazy.
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Thought I'd post what last night was like here...
For DD, I stopped swaddling and introduced a "luvvie" (very soft blanket with silky lining) for her to hold. She had a much better night, waking only once and with soother and a quick pat was back to sleep.
For DS (the real problem!), I considered trying tummy sleep but he still needs the swaddle and I would think that putting a swaddled baby on their tummy is dangerous. So, instead I gave him a luvvie as well, helped him find it to stroke, seemed to be a comfort (?). Also, I made sure he got his full doses of Zantac yesterday (reflux) and that he had lots of activity. He had a better night, but I would love to know why!! He woke at 3:50am and needed me to turn him on his side and help him find his luvvie and then just sort of muttered and groaned in light sleep until he insisted on being up (sister too!) at 6.
Oh, the only other thing I can think of is that his nasty bum rash was cleared up as of yesterday so that might be a factor too??
Anyway, that's my update. I'm just grateful to have had a few hours sleep in a row.
Looking forward to our continued collaboration on this problem!!
Sarah
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That's great. I'm glad it was a better night. Me on the other hand....not so good :( Without a doubt one of the toughest nights so far. I'm going to chalk it up the the chicken pox and pray things improve as dd gets over the illness.
Yesterday, I tried some extra activity with her. She's not showing any outward signs of illness other than the spots and being a little irritable. So, the day went well, but last night!! Oh my, I am SO confused! This is how things went:
Since waking up late yesterday (8:30am), she ended up skipping late afternoon catnap and I put her to bed a little earlier -- had her last bf at 6:30 and she was asleep by 7:10. I tried to have her take the nap for 30 min but just cooed and played in crib and obviously just didn't need it. Total awake time for the day was normal (about 8.5 hours). After taking extra help settling for bedtime (not the norm), she woke up at 10:20pm RAVENOUS so I gave her df then even though I normallly wouldn't do it until 11:00pm. She has never woken early for that either. Then, she woke at her usual 1:30ish and tried hard for 30 min to put herself back to sleep but needed help around 2:05. Looked like she'd settle but then kept snapping back awake until was finallly pitching fit by 3:00 and acting hungry. I couldn't believe that was it as have not had to feed her at that time for 2 months, but finally fed at 3:30 and she took a full feed. She fell asleep again by 4:10 with help (which she doesn't usually need after a feed) and woke again at 6:15 hollering for another feed. She took ANOTHER full feed and zonked back out and is just waking now at 9:15am cooing in her crib.
I AM SO CONFUSED!!! :? :? :? Now I just don't know what to do. Since she was so hungry and ate really well yesterday and still needed more at night, I think it must be growth spurt thrown in the mix too. so i'll try to increase my supply today again. My big concern though is the sleeping late following her wakeful nights. I should probably still be getting her up at 7:00am I suspect as I am worried she is setting a body clock pattern that will be tough to change of being wakeful at night and sleeping in the morning. I just have such a hard time doing that as I am so exhausted and sleep right through as well.
Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
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Hi Ccjay Hi I don't know if I can offer much advice as I'm in the same boat re night waking however it may be worth offering the DF again just to see if it helps, out of interest have you started Tracey's programme with regards to shush/pat and PU/PD and if so does this not settle him at night?
Majic belly Hi I have had the same feeding probs with Ollie and when I was on the eating forum read a post explaining how this was common in spirited babies which my LO is I don't know if this sounds familiar but if there's noise. distraction i.e other people in room or sometimes even if I look at him the wrong way or speak when he's taking his bottle he kicks off. I even stopped BF at 12 weeks cause I was convinced his fussing was my lack of milk.
Everyone else no changes to report really except the last 3 nights ollie has only woke twice, between 1.30 and 2.30 when he wakes for his dummy and settles really quick (2 mins) then between 3.00 and 5.00 where it takes about 10 mins of pat/shush so hopefully were moving in the right direction :)
Speak soon, Sarah
P.s if your in the USA has the second series of lost started up again after the christmas break we've been downloading it but only up to episode 9!!!
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Sarah Brown
As far as I can see, yes, it would be ok to put lo on front. We started before ds could roll, but could hold his head up well. We've never had an issue. I just make sure that there are no loose blankets around him. He has a lovey, but it is crocheted with big holes, so I don't worry. An extra plus, if your lo uses a pacifier, being on tummy seems to help keep it in their mouth! Like I said, he just seems to relax more because he can't overstimulate himself (he loves to put his feet in his mouth when he's on his back!). So we've gone from 2-5 night wakings down to an occassional 1. I can deal with that!
As far as Lost goes, I think the season is starting this week or next week.
Melissa
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MagicBelly
When i first did the df it seemed to do no good. However, I would stick with it! My dh and I had a pow-wow about ds's sleeping habits a few weeks ago. He was up and down all night--it was like having a newborn! So this is what we decided. We know he can go at least 8 hours without a feed (has gone 10 on some occassions), so his feeding times at night are now up to us. Therefore, we do solids at 5/5:30 (and he hates plain rice cereal too--we mix it with fruits and veggies), bottle at 6:30/7, bed at 8, df at 10:30, and no feeding until at least 5:30am (he normally goes until 6/6:30). His morning wake-up is between 8-8:30. It took about a week, but like I mentioned before, we have maybe 1 wake-up that is quickly solved with his lovie and pacifier (I'm in the room about 30 seconds). We do tummy sleeping too, which I know some aren't crazy about. I guess my dh made me realize at this stage our lo's start figuring things out (like how to manipulate mommy!), and I don't have the heart for CIO, but I need my sleep! A happy mommy is a happy household!
Melissa
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YAHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want to jinx things and I definitely don't want to make you all feel bad but last night both my babies SLEPT STRAIGHT FROM 6:45pm - 6am!!!
Now if I just knew WHY?? Maybe they somehow knew that if they didn't let mummy finally get some sleep it would be a much less pleasant world for them, LOL!
Anyway, I hope that you all read this as encouraging...I don't want to boast just wanted to share some positive news instead of my usual griping.
I really hope you have a night like this one tonight! (and I hope I have another one!)
Sarah :)
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Sarah O - congratulations and here's to another night straight through for the bubs! :D (I'm a frat twin myself - I get the "you can imagine what it was like with you twins!" from my mum and we were numbers 5 & 6 of the kids!!! Anyway I digress...)
Mommy in Moose Jaw - usually ds is down for the night by 8-8.30pm with little drama. But lately, it's been happening more frequently with struggles. Tonight was about 1.5hrs - it's SOOO frustrating because he was ready for sleep and almost dropped off into a good sleep several times in the first few minutes. Eventually I tried feeding him again and he seemed to go down after a few minutes.
I'm going to try the df tonight (in about 10 mins) and then try to shorten the feeding time gradually at the early morning IF ds wakes then (fingers crossed!).
What does everyone do when being out (or some external commitment) is going to affect the routine?
Also until what age is the dummy (pacifier) not considered a prop?! Generally, ds needs the sucking motion to soothe for sleep and since I don't feed to sleep.... I probably should post this in a different area but you all seem pretty clued in :D
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Hi Sarah o I'm so pleased for you I've just cheered my husband thinks I'm crazy!! so what he has Manchester United I have the BW website.
My little man achieved something for the first time last night aswell, he did wake first at 3.30 for 5 mins then at 5.45, I went in tried pat shush but this seemed to annoy him and he was fussing and arching his back so I admitted defeat and went to get my dressing gown to go down and tell my DH and when I went back in his room he had settled himself back down, this is the first time since being tiny fingers (and toes) crossed this is a sign of things to come. :D
Happy sleeping through..by the way ws it both you LO's that would wake or just one
Sarah
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Yes i did try the df again last wk but he pursed his lips and refused it. I considered trying it again the last 2 nights because he only took 2 full bottles and refused the rest. But i decided to see how it went. I'm nearly afraid to say it incase i jinx myself but Sun night he went down at 8.30 and only woke at 11 when i did sh/pat and he slept through to 7.20. Last night he went down at 8.10 and didn't stir til 6.10.Fingers crossed! I did use pu/pd initially to get him used to going to sleep on his own. Now i find it doesn't work so good so i try to avoid having to pick him up. DS just woke up. Husband just did sh/pat and he's gone off again. Maybe i spoke too soon!!
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Hi all
I finally got my daughter down for the night (37mins) the evenings are challenging. how do babies know this difference between day sleeps and bedtime?
Before i go on you must all download and read this sleep interview with Tracey(very long) . it answers so many of our questions. she says there is a developmental growth stage around 5 months and talks in depth about pu/pd and nightwaking.
so i started the df 3 nights ago and it is making a world of difference (thanks Sarah for encouraging me to perservere). Chloe slept through 1st night, woke 4am the second night taking 30min to get her down but no feed, slept through third night. i know now she can go 7pm-7am with 10pm df.
if she gets her full daytime sleeps 1.5-2hr x2 and catnap 45-1hr i have a great day and a happy baby. if i cant resettle a 45min daysleep it throws the rest of the day unless she catches up - sleep definately promotes sleep.
Chloe is a VERY firey spirited baby who likes to get her own way so enforcing this routine helps me to help her. found her sleeping on her tummy for the first time ever this morning.
still only early days though. tracey also suggests to top up day feeds to make up for the feeds they want overnight - basically stick your boob/bottle in their mouth whenever you get the chance. i tried this yesterday and it threw the entire day routine out, by the afternoon she was feeding every 2 hrs so i wont do this again. bubs not on solids yet so i dont have digestive problems to deal with. i may be in for a new challenge in two weeks.
off the topic, Sarah O, i admire you for handling double the trouble. i too am a frat. twin and we have twins every generation in our family tree except mine so far. my brother and sister have finished having kids and Chloe is my first child so if i dont have twins i break generations of tradition (this doesnt matter of course). anyway i was interested in your history for a bit of fun. did you suspect twins?
Keep perservering everyone, consistencey is the key.
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Hi ladies I was just coming to this room because we been having some awful nights and I saw this post and again 'I couldn't believe my eyes' :shock: :shock: :shock: Guess what my DS is 5.5 moths too and wouldn't you believe it is doing the same thing.
I'll try give you a brief run down, he never slept through from birth always feeding a minimum every 4hrs. I introduced solids and he started sleeping through, DH and I have been in heven for the last week or so. Now we used to battle with 45min naps but he started to grow out of that too. Still does it if he is very over tired, or we're out and about,or doesn't have enough awake time (this can be tricky to judge as he seems to be moaning/whiging from the moment he wakes to the moment he sleeps, I think it's the teething) I tend to watch the clock and try to set a minimum of awake time then any time after that put him down.
He has never had a problem going back to sleep after he wakes (until now :roll: ) I'm sure in my case it's not a growth spurt (yet) as when I offer him the bottle he just cooe's and smiles and plays with the teat with his tounge. I don't know if it's a coincidence but it started monday night and monday morning he had his last set of jabs (but he seemed to have no side effects i.e no temperature or loss of appetite. Another thing is that he got two bottom teath 4 days ago.
Butboth me and DH think it might be what Kate suggested that he needs more stimulating awake time, because he seems really healthy his appetite is good but is normal (he's not hungry at night) He just seems as bright as a button between 12-4am. The poor thing can't understand that it's still bed time and is wide awake ready to go. :roll:
It's good to know this is a developmental thing as there are sooo many babies going through it at the same age. I hope it sorts itself out soon :wink: I'm going to try more stimulating activity time maybe go out for a bit in the afternoon (even though it's feezing outside. And maybe an extended bathtime. I'm going to buy one of those bath seats/chairs and some floaty toys and see if we have any change. Fingers crossed :wink:
I'll keep you all posted and let you know how tonight goes.
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i wanted to post a few relevant quotes from Tracey's sleep interview. you really need to read it to put this in perspective. Sorry these snipets are long too:
1. Q: So there are a lot of things changing in this age range (4-5 months).
T: Yes. And sometimes you’ll have something else that’s very common – “My baby has been sleeping through the night, and now she’s started waking again.” I guarantee that probably started at a growth spurt, and they didn’t recognize it, so they didn’t up the calories during the day.
And the other thing is, parents will say is “He’s four months old, and he’s started waking, and he’s drooling a lot – has he started teething?” No, he’s not teething, except in very rare cases, his saliva glands have just matured. Because drooling has nothing to do with teething.
2.Q: So if night wakings are starting again, and it’s clearly hunger, you would feed him that night, but the very next day start trying to increase the calories?
T: Yes, get the extra calories in wherever you can. Don’t even think about the clock. So if they get up at 7 and feed, you give them a couple more ounces at, say, 9. Whatever you fed them in the night you’ve got to make up the next day – let’s say he woke up at 2am and gulped down 8 ounces. Then you’ve got to get 8 extra ounces in the next day. It doesn’t mean in one bottle or feed. It may mean you’ve got to add an ounce to every bottle/feed they’re having in the day. Say they’re having 4 feeds/bottles, that’s an extra 4 ounces. Then, say after an hour that they’ve fed, you give them an ounce. And then another hour later, you give them another ounce. And then it’s not until about the third day that they’ll start to adjust during the day so they can take all the extra they need at regular feed times. But if they’ve been sleeping through the night, and suddenly they start waking, I could put money on it that it’s hunger, and it’s calories.
3. Q: So let’s take the example of a baby who wakes early from a nap happy. Sometimes they’ll wake early and are clearly still tired. Maybe something has interfered – he’s had a big poop, or is hungry earlier because he didn’t eat well the feed before, or something like that. So you’d work on getting him back to sleep, or if hungry feed and do the things we talked about earlier. But when they wake up happy, and they know how to self-soothe, I’m assuming there’s no real point to try to do the pu/pd.
T: Right! If they’re happy – the baby who wakes up happy has clearly, somewhere along the line, had a good nap. So leave him be. The point I would make here is, you don’t need to rush in just because their eyes are open and they’re babbling. Don’t break that – because if you start to break that, then they don’t learn to be in their own space. Then you have a child that soon learns that mum rushes in as soon as I make a sound. Well, in that case they don’t learn, they never get used to being on their own. So when mum does want them to be on their own, it’s so strange to them – because you’ve always rushed in – that they start to cry when they’re left. And those children have a hard time at the age where they go through separation anxiety. Because they’ve never been left, and they don’t know what it is to – I have a lot of babies who regularly wake between 4 and 5 in the morning, but go back to sleep. Leave them alone – if they’re fine, then leave them alone. Until they call you, they’ll do that fussy, coughing cry, e-heh, e-heh, e-heh, “where are you?” And when you come in, they’re happy, all smiley again. If they’ve been happy in their space, and then they start to cry, it’s because they want you. But if they’re babbling and cooing, and talking to their “friends” in the crib, leave them be!
4. Q: dreamfeeding....And sometimes will even be smiling, engaging you, so how to phase it out…say you have a 6 month old and are wondering how long to continue the dream feed.
T: You know what you do, you really don’t with breastfeeding start to phase that dream feed out until about 8 months. Because they’ll have another major growth spurt before then. The one thing you don’t do with dream feeding and breastfeeding is you don’t start feeding them again in the night. Because I guarantee they’ll start eating less in the day and start eating in the night if you let that get re-established.
Q: So why is it they like to go back to eating more in the night than in the day?
T: It’s more relaxing and they don’t have the distractions – the thing is, at this age, with all they can start to do now, they want to spend less time to eat, less time to sit and be still – that’s pretty boring! That’s why a lot of children will actually lose weight at this age.
Q: And that’s where you were saying earlier to just get the calories, don’t worry about the clock and the schedule, just get the calories in.
T: That’s right, just grab ‘em any time, and pop ‘em on the boob, as long as it’s in the day, when that sunshine is out, and not the moon penny!
5.Q: Now what about the other end – starting the dream feed? What about parents who say they’ve tried it, but it didn’t work?
T: Let’s say you’re feeding them at 7 or 8. And they’re waking up at 2 or 3. If you give them a dream feed – here are the two scenarios: One is if they take a big dream feed, and they still wake up at 2. Well, in that case, at least you know it’s not calories causing them to wake. The other scenario is if they won’t wake enough to feed. In that case, take it an hour later, so if you’re doing it at 10pm, then try it at 11pm.
Now if they’re always waking at 2am, then you’ll have to break it, and give it to them at 1am. Set your alarm for 1am, so you pre-empt it. Then bring it back to 12, then 11.
Q: Is it important, if you want to try the dream feed, to keep it up if you don’t see results right away?
T: Yes...And in that 3-6 month range, they should start to be physically asleep from 7 to 7, with a dream feed at around 10 or 11.
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Hello all. I've been backwards and forwards over the sleep interview and our routine and am still at a loss. I think it's mostly a growth spurt but am having trouble getting dd to eat any more during the day. Wake up times are erratic at night, so that makes me still suspect hunger. I've tried everything -- more food, more activity, less activity, more sleep, less sleep, later bed, earlier bed and pretty much nothing has changed. Last night she was easy to resettle, but tonight I ended up having to give her a small feed at 4:00 am as NOTHING was settling her.
She is now so distractable at the breast during the day I can't believe she's taking anything in, sometimes feeds only last 5 minutes total, and she's SO impatient with the letdown. We used to have to nurse with her on top of me so the letdown wouldn't drown her, now it's not fast enough?? Good grief.
Also I think she's in the process of dropping her last nap so is getting v. tired at night and having a harder time settling.
I don't think hammering away at pu/pd is the answer at night right now as she seems to settle with a little sh/pat if she is not hungry. I hesitate to give her more solids during the day as she is taking about 9 oz of solids already and that seems a bit much for this age?? She is a big baby however, 95th%ile. I'll try offering more tomorrow and see what happens....
If this is all just a 'stage' I think I've had enough!! I often only get about 3 hours of sleep and then insomnia sets in. I feel like I'm chasing my own tail with possible explanations. I wish someone had a magic wand....
Sleepless in Saskatchewan
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Mummy in Moose Jaw, sorry to hear that things are not settling. My 5.5 slept through last night, woke from 4-430am talking and playing, i didn't go in just listened and she eventually went back off to sleep. i know if i checked on her, the moment she saw me she would cry but then i lay awake concered she isnt unwrapped.
she is taking a big df and i rub bmilk over my nipples before i go to her (not sure if it makes any difference). dayfeeds, she is still very distracted and often only seems to feed for 5-10min but she still lasts 4hrs between feeds so i must conclude that they are more efficient feeders. another strategy i have started is to have her straddle me (facing my breast sitting on each leg) which sometimes helps with distractions. this mornings feed lasted 5min. i put her down on activity mat for play time with nappy off, gave her a play then sat her up on the ground between my legs and she finished her feed very well. generally i have to keep changing tact. others on bf forum have suggested a nursing necklace.
this is all new to me so i am certainly not in a position to offer my advice but hopefully she is slowly starting to grow out of this stage. maybe my bub is one week ahead of yours becasue her pattern was the same as yours over the past 3 weeks. all i would do is stick to the routine and feed her once in the night only if she is taking a full feed, if not wait it out to see if it is habitual waking. do you wait a good while before going in to her overnight so she doesnt expect you to always help settle, maybe she is looking for a little comfort??? i am just throwing ideas at you now.
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Hi ladies DS woke again last night, first making noises then after about 30min started to cry forthe bottle ( I know for sure when he is hungry because he has a very angry hungry cry) I first offered him some water but after a couple of min sucking I gave him a bottle of milk. He only drank 2 oz of milk but I have a huge hunch this has turned into a growth spurt.
I'm really curious how you all are handling it. I know Tracy says feed him the first night then fill him up the next day, but this is sooo much easier said then done. If ds doesn't want any more milk there is nothing I can do to tempt him, :roll: , I try to add as much as I can to his solids without making them too sloppy but appart from that there is nothing else I can do there is only so many hours in one day.
So I'm thinking if he wakes again tonight I will offer him some cooled boiled water first and if he sucks like he's very hungry I will give him milk. Last night he woke at 2 am fed him at 2.30 he slept till 7.30 after drinking only 2oz of milk and about 3 oz of water.
I'm really strugling to decide what is the right thing to do as I really don't want him to get used to eating at night. I'm happy that he managed to sleep for another 5hrs after such a small feed and I'm hoping I'm tackling this in the best way, as I would like to move forward and not backwards.
I would love to hear how you all are getting on and what tactics you are using and weather they work.
Look forward to here from you Natalie x
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SHE SLEPT THROUGH!!!! I am so pumped! My last post was in the midst of terrible insomnia in the wee hours of Wed morning after 'giving in' and feeding dd a little following 1 hour wakefulness and being inconsolable with anything else. I ended up not going back to sleep as I knew I would just let the alarm come and go at 7:00am if I did. So, I got dd up at 7:00 on Wed morning despite her being up for a while the night before. Previously, I had let her sleep if we had a rough night but could see a pattern beginning, so I got her up and gave her a full feed plus once extra on each breast to increase supply. Knowing that I was going to do that on Wed was part of why I only gave her a small feed at 4:00am, so she would be hungry enough to take a full feed at 7:00am.
Then at 8:30 I offered solids. She rarely takes much at that point in the day, but I made sure she had her fav food (bananas) so I knew if she didn't eat much it was a hunger thing and not a food preference thing. Still only took about 5 baby spoonfuls. Each time she nursed yesterday, I offered both breasts twice to increase supply and each time she took the extra offered, which she'll only do if hungry. For solids, I kept feeding her until she objected rather than stopping after a couple of ounces. This led to a HUGE lunch (9 oz) for a total of about 14 oz for the day. She also took great naps and was very content all day. She also didn't wake up early for the df which she had done for a couple of nights and then slept all the way through to 6:45!!!
Granted, this is only one day and things may still change but with that result I am convinced the primary problem was hunger. It was all very confusing as she jsut started to need solids at Christmas (one day after being 5 months) so I didn't think she could possibly need so much food at this point. Also, I had used the technique to increase milk supply for 3 days twice since Christmas and previous growth spurts only needed that once. ALSO, we had an illness and first episode of teething in the middle of all this so I was concerned her waking during illness or teething may have become a pattern, so I really hesitated to offer food at night. And then she is also occasionally sleeping differently during the day and dropping her late afternoon catnap so all our predictable patterns had been turned on their ear! So many changes at this age!! Tracy's book says there is often a major growth spurt at 6 months so I didn't immediately think that was what was happening at 5 months but several people have said their lo's grew more at 5 months. And dd suddenly seems much bigger and is filling the length of the change table and carseat, and standing straight up in exersaucer!
To Travis's Mom, as for adding more cals, the only thing we can do at this point is to add solids, especially for bottle fed babies. The composition of breast milk will add more fat as needed, but your baby's tummy will only hold so much liquid and then he needs more solids for more cals. The only caution I have read is to just not cut out milk feeds and replace with solids, but if baby is still hungry with a full liquid diet, add more food. I personally don't think you need to try to get him to drink more formula if he is already taking max oz over the day. When I look back on my food and sleep log, I found I fed dd at some point in the night for about 1 week and it didn't become a clockwork habit, so if the problem is in fact food, you probably don't have to worry if you still have to feed him at night occasionally while you're working this out. I offer that only because your pattern seems similar to mine, I hope that will help you.
Keep your fingers crossed for me ladies that we continue to have good nights!!!
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Mommy in Moosejaw I'm thrilled for you! That's great.
My own night of bliss was unfortunately a one-of. His highness was back to his terrible nights again last night. Add to that, my baby girl (we learned today) requires a biopsy on a tumour on her hard palate. :(
Just when I think things can't get any harder, they do. Please send me some positive vibes guys?
Thanks!!
Sarah
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Sarah O - definitely thinking of you in all aspects (for sleeping through the night and your girl's health)
Mummy Moosejaw - I hope you've got your breakthrough :D - it sounds like you've tried everything possible!! I don't know how you've last on the amount of sleep you've been getting.
:?: re df (and also the sleep interview notes - maybe magicbelly you can help me?!).. when introducing df by bringing 3am back by 1/2hr to 11pm, is that 1/2hr each night or every 2-3 nights to make it more gradual? (I've been reading a lot lately and info is starting to blur!! :shock: )
I've already tried to start reducing minutes but ds cracked a fit a couple of nights ago and last night even though successful the first times. Last night, he woke at 2.15am for feed even though df at 11pm (not a strong feed but still lasted about 10mins).
Cheers!
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I am still working my way through Tracey's latest book but it is providing valuable information.
Mummy Moosejaw: I believe she means bring feed back 1/2hr each night until you reach df.
Natalie: i am on metric system so not sure how much milk the night feed is however i am guessing it is small. if so, Tracey suggests it is not true hunger but habit. My bub had the same pattern and change as Mummy Moosejaw, the growthspurt, if it was one, happened at 5 mths. This week so far has been going exceptionally well sticking to strict routine she has slept through 4 nights straight and settling is faster each time. But it was a good month of a very unsettled period. If all continues i will ease however i find outings very disruptive to her sleep patterns and always end up with a cranky baby. however i am not one to stay indoors.
Sarah O: I really am sending positive vibes to you and your babies. All the best.
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Hi ladies thanks for all the feed back, Mommy in moose jaw, I'm really glad things seem to be looking up for you :D I hope that if I continue to fill up DS during the day and offer dummy first then water then milk we should be able to prvent a habbit of him eating alot at night like he used to. It seems like in order to have a happy settled baby we have to pump them full of food.
I seem to be sqeezing in two feeds (formula and solids) at each awake time (1.5hrs-2hrs) wich is not that easy. I didn't realise babies needed so much feeding.
Ds did wake last night but after our routine went back to sleep till 7am. So at least the night time baby insomnia has stopped. :wink: I will keep an eye on what time he wakes each night and give it two weeks and feed him at night (again :roll: ). If by then he doesn't start sleeping through I will have to change tacticts.
In the mean time I will keep in touch and let you all know how things are going.
Sarah O I will be thinking of you and sending good vibes your way, for you and your baby girl. Hopefully night times will get back on track for you too soon.
Natalie x.
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Hi mums
well it has been almost a week and Chloe has slept through almost everynight, no night feeds though.
i think getting the food in is a major issue too. to get as much bmilk in during the day i have found the best way is feed as long as possible, play 10min or so, feed, play etc. yep feeds are drawn out and i only have one bub so time is on my hands compared wiht the rest of you but it is amazing how much she keeps taking compared with giving up feeding after the first distractions like i was doing before.
hope the nights improve for you all.
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Sarah O Thoughts and prayers are with you! It really reminds you that there are things that are truly more important to worry about sometimes! Good luck!
Last night the first time dd woke up was for a 5:00am feeding and she was ravenous. Unfortunately, she had a hard time getting back into deep sleep and needed some sh/pat at 5:40 and then woke up for the day at 6:15. Still, it is progress. Yesterday and today she only took two naps also so that is another change in the works.
This growth spurt just keeps going and going and going. After playing in her crib until nearly 7am, she had another full feed at 7am and 5 oz solids at 8:30am (that's TONS more than she has ever taken at that time). Things seem to have levelled out as the day wore on. For breastfeeding I have been nursing twice on each breast and I think I may just continue that for a while as she does take more that way as magicbelly has noticed also. DS is in school all day so I also have a fair amount of time to devote to feeding.
Over and over Tracy's books have examples of sleep problems that are really food problems and that certainly seems to be the case here. They're growing and changing so much but at the same time don't want to sit still for food, so it's hard to identify that as the issue when they don't 'seem' hungry. This could all be very coincidental, but for now I think I've found a good part of the problem and hope things continue to improve.
I hope everyone continues to post their progress or observations as I'm sure there will be a new issue next week!
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Jane--
welcome to the confusing world of 4-6 month olds!
I hope that the dairy intolerance is the problem! Let us know!
Melissa
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Not counting my chickens yet...but he did sleep from 8pm to 5.45am last night. Hoping he'll do the same again tonight...
J
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Well my wk started off great. Slept through Sun and Mon but unfortunately I spok too soon. Woke up Wed 3AM, Thurs 5AM. Not too bad, but Fri night he seemed to be awake all night. I had decided to not try df anymore cos he wasn't taking it. But gave it a go again lst night. Same story, he pursed his lips. Anyway good night again last night-8.30 to 6.20 but I'm not too optimistic that this will continue. He used to sleep in a gro bag but it was suggested to me that this might be the problem as he wouldn't be able to be as active as he wants. This doesn't seem to make any difference. I've succeeded in getting more calories into him these days but again nights are the same. Countdown to back to work only 2 wks now. I feel very down when I talk to people I meet in town. They all seem to have babies who sleep all night! Ds is definitely teething but no sign of tooth yet. Don't think this is the only problem.
I'm glad to hear it seems to be working out now for a lot of you.My baby will be 6 months on Fri. He had only slept well really from 3-4 months. I now feel like I haven't slept properly since before the birth.
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Hi all!
I came to the website for exactly this same problem and have read all 5 pages! Congrats on the good outcomes for some of you.
I have also been v. confused as my LO and I just came back from a 2 week trip to California and we live in Barcelona- so add 9 hours of jet lag to the mix! Sheesh! :shock:
I guess I will work on day feeds and getting him back on a regular schedule again, he currently is going about 9pm-10am, which makes a dream feed too late, but then he's hungry during the night... You all know the story!
I will be checking back and updating on progress too. LO seems to want to drop the cat-nap too... so it's all a big mess after second long nap!
CCJay- don't despair! Not all babies sleep through the night and not all parents tell the truth! "Sleeping through the night" means more than 6 hours in a row, and BW schedule is 12 hours, so according to most dr's your baby is indeed sleeping through the night, just not at the same times as Mommy would like! :wink:
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CCJay hang in there. i guarentee if you ask many of those mothers what qualifies 'sleeping through' there will be many definitions. if they do have a perfect sleeper there are always other things that will challenge their day so dont compare yourself. if it helps, at least you know there is a world of mums with the same problem as yourself and we represent a handful of them. (my bub turns 6mths end of this week too)
just stick to your daily routines and rituals. dont forget Tracey also suggests there can be a regression 5-7days after a progression. this happened to me over the weekend. i had a great week where Chloe slept through then for 2 days/nights it took me 3hrs to get her down, she would on catnap 20-40min during the day etc and i felt very disappointed and strained. then i woke up yesterday morning suddenly rememberinng Tracey's warning and thought "I am internalising this too much, let it go, i will be back on track, stay positive" (my husband letting me sleep for 3 hrs that morning also helped). Yes, we are back on track today, she slept through last night and woke a happier bub again.
unfortunatley the weekends are disruptive to routine too. can't avoid this.
I am going to start solids end of the week. chloe showing a huge interest in our food.
Sarah O, i have been thinking about your twins. hope you have good news this week.
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Jane Pitt - i had a look at a resource book i have about holistic parenting. i'm sure you are aware that wheat and dairy intolerances contribute to the lg no. of hypersensitivities in society with eczema, asthma & ear infections on the rise it suggests holding out both wheat and dairy for at least 12-15mths, which i will be doing. by 15mths it is less likely kids will be intollerant. of course you have to ensure adequate calcuim comes from other sources and sesame seeds (crushed) are the best due to their digestibility & mineral content ie. tahini other eg. sardines, spinich, almonds & cashew paste. these suggestions are safe to introduce after 9mths. i drink rice milk with added calcium. Magnesium in plants aids Ca+ absorption (apricots, spinich).
it makes the suggestion for bottle fed bubs to add a qtr tsp of bifidobacterium infantis (a beneficial micro-organism in lg instestine of bf infants) to milk before feeding. Eg. Natren Lifestart available in Aust. Remember to add after heating the formula or you will destroy the bacteria.
Also add a few drops of flaxseed oil after heating to ensure adequate Omega 3 intake.
Hope sleeping/eating/ecxema improves for you both with elimination of lactose based foods. best wishes.
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Wow, what a lot of great support out there! I'm glad everyone is so honest too! Ccjay I think I could have written your post today! We had two 'perfect' nights and one where she woke up at 5:00am so I thought we had this licked and then last night, BOOM! Same thing, up from 1:30 - 3:30 am. I was on the verge of tears the whole time. AND I had a hair appointment yesterday and my stylist has a baby just 6 weeks older than mine and was lamenting having to wake him up at 8am to get going!!! He goes to bed at 7pm! Those people should not be allowed to tell others about that!
After that coversation and our tough night I was just so frustrated/disappointed, but like magicbelly I keep repeating the same thing over and over to myself, 'this will get better, just stick with it!'. And then I see other posts about 11 month olds screaming at night, etc and wonder if this will ever change and if I will ever NOT feel like a zombie!
I think I can attribute our rough night last night to another bout of teething. Today, dd was irritable, drooling, slight runny nose, looser stools, red cheeks, and less appetite. So, tonight I gave her some Tempra before bed and we'll see if that helps. Lately, if it's not a growth spurt, it's teething, or illness, or development. Imagine how out of sorts and confused they must feel too!
Jane Pitt both my kids have had exzema, so if you want to PM me for any details on what has worked for us to manage and eliminate it, I'd be happy to offer what I have learned. Both irritations have largely been lactose based, although dd is even more sensitive to external things like soap and lotion also.
Well, that's where things stand for these last few days, I'm sure it will change again, that's one thing I've learned to count on! Thanks again for all the honesty and support out there, it really helps to know you're not the only tired mom out there!
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Hello!
Thought I'd post a quick update. It really seems true that regressions are universal. After my earlier "Yahoo!!" post DS and I had a bad night again and then things seem to be steadily improving now.
My DD is 100% back on track (she always used to be an amazing sleeper) so that's a relief. DS is still usually waking around 2:30 and around 4:15, and then off and on from 5 until we get up (usually 6-6:30) but this is a MAJOR improvement over waking every 20-40 minutes x 2 babies!!!
Now my focus turns to my DD's biopsy on Jan 29th. Thanks for your well wishes, it helps.
Sarah
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Hi Guy's not been around for a while things are a little hectic at the moment and by the time I gat to sit down it's time to go to bed. My DS is getting a little better, Following his dream feed at 10.30 he doesn't stir until 4.00 ish so at least I'm getting a few hours in undisturbed and me and DH were at a 30th party on sat night so Ollie stayed at his nana's and Amy came with us so at last I had a fantastic nights sleep and lay in until 11.00 the next morning. That should re-charge my batteries for a couple of months. He rolled over on thursday for the first time as well(yipee!) and since then has been dragging himself round the floor like an SAS soilder, we are hopping this wears him out so much he sleeps through!!! speak soon, Sarah :D :wink:
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Hi again
Off the topic of sleeping through, Chloe was put down at 7pm last night and screamed loudly every 10-20min until 10pm df. something was definately wrong and i had to use the process of elimination to find out what.
At 9pm I discovered a little front tooth that wasnt there at lunchtime. you can almost see our bubs grow in front of our eyes. a dose of paracemetol and she slept through to 7am. not yet 6 months this was a big surprise.
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Thank you thank you Mommy in Moose Jaw, you are a legend.
For 2 - 3 weeks my now 4.5 month DS has been waking every hour or so from about 1 am onwards and over the last week it seemed to be getting worse as he was even waking a couple of times after being put to bed at about 7 pm until his DF then again after that. Needless to say I was getting pretty exhausted and very frustrated especially as he used to be a very good sleeper (even up to 8 or 9 hours) from about 6 weeks.
I had decided it could not be hunger as he was generally pretty easy to get back to sleep and would not eat very much the few times I had tried feeding him multiple times in the night.
I have been searching the BW threads now for a little while to see if anyone had come up with a solution. I read your post yesterday about your sucess in turning this habit around and spent the day trying to pack as many calories in my DS as possible. As he's still totally BF that meant a lot of feeds but what do you know - he went to sleep about 8.30 pm last night, woke for a DF about 11.30 pm and then woke again at 4 am when I fed him. Other than that he slept without waking until just after 8 am!
Although its still only one night I am convinced that hunger must have been the main issue so I am pretty ecstatic. With more sleep I also feel a million dollars today in comparison with how I have been feeling lately.
So thank you so much for your persistence in trying out various solutions and keeping us informed of your progress, so that people like me can benefit from your hard work.
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Quick update for those still hanging in there....C seems to be (fingers crossed) back on track. He has consistently slept through for the the last few nights so there is hope :D
Mommy in Moose Jaw..... thanks for all your words of wisdom. I'd love to take up you offer on the eczema. We are currently still on anti-biotics to clear up the infections and a low dose steriod cream on the inflamed areas. These are getting better by the day. We have reduced his baths to every other day and use either Infracare (recommended by the Eczema society) or, I think it is Oilium junior in the bath. He has Doublebase as the moisturiser. I have started using Doublebase on top of the steriod cream, maybe you can tell me if that is OK?
Any other suggestions will be gratefully recieved. I have already trawled the message boards for ideas.
Magicbelly...thanks too for your thoughts. Yes, thankfully he's OK with wheat and loves ALL veggies and fruit.
Thanks
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Wow, thanks pope2075! I was worried all my novels were just becoming eyesores!
I thought I would post a little update. I wanted to wait a few days before posting to see if this was actually progress or a blip and now I'm leaning toward progress. We have had another blissful 3 nights of sleeping straight through, but it actually happened accidentally. In my last post I said dd was up from 1:30- 3:30 and the next night I gave Tempra before bed to see if that helped. Well her sleep up the the dreamfeed was much better but she woke again at 1:30. My plan was to give her Tempra again and see if that helped. So as she woke up, I crept out of the room to go get the dropper and decided I had to pee (sorry for the details) and as I was walking back in the room, she turned her head to the side and tried to settle. I froze in my tracks and ducked below the crib bumper (the dance of moms) and waited. After a few crescendos, she put herself back to sleep!! It took about 10-12 min but she did it. She woke again at 4:00am and I decided to wait 10 min before responding and she put herself back to sleep again! Each night since she seems to wake up at about the same time but she is putting herself back to sleep each time after 5-10 min. I was asked a while ago if I was going in too soon and didn't think I was as I was only going when she had that sort of upset 'break' in her cry. Well when she wakes up at those times, she starts out that way so I was scooting right over to help her back to sleep before she really woke up. The other night, all that served to do was wake her up more!
I had mentioned a while ago that when we did supportive sleep with her naps that eventually the 'support' became more disturbing than helpful and I learned to jsut let her be. The same thing seems to have happened with the night wakings.
I continue to offer both breast twice at feedings and occasionally she takes the extra so I'm just making sure she gets as many calories as possible. And with solids, I feed her until she refuses.
For activity, we provide a little more stimulation than before. We let her play in her exersaucer more and kick at this little gym that whirls and spins with each kick. Pretty loud but now she seems to be able to handle it. Baths are a little longer also and I don't have to keep big brother out of the picture at night time any more (talk about a bundle of energy).
For sleep I've found she is averaging about 45-60min more awake time per day than about a month ago. Sometimes she wakes a little early, or cuts a nap short or skips her catnap but somehow she sleeps a little less than before. I think she's still trying to organize a new sleep pattern.
So, all in all I think it was mostly hunger but we did change and increase her activity time also.
I'm not going to assume this is solved as whenever I get comfortable it changes, but so far, that is what I've learned.
I'm eager to hear how everyone else is making out as well!
Sarah O how's dd making out with the biopsy?
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(wow making this one a hot topic)
Hi again
Wanted to update if you are all still there because dd has reached new milestones and started night waking again:
1. turned 6 months 2 days ago
2. first tooth 4 days ago, SECOND tooth this morning!!! is this common?
3. started solids two days ago
4. wont resettle from 5.30am
Not sure where to start with her schedule. she has woken the past few nights between 3.30-4.30 and i can re-settle her. wakes again at 5.30 playing for the past few mornings also. this morning she woke 5.50am became inconsolable from 6am, i discovered the second tooth, gave pain relief and then she took a full bf at 6.15 and fell back asleep. i woke her again 7.15 to get back on schedule and she took another bf. i will give her solids and bf at her 11am feed today instead.
there doesn't appear to be any problems with solids and digestion so far. i am not sure if the waking from 5.30am is teething or now i am wondering about another growth spurt and she is actually hungry. usually i can hold out the food until 7am. i know i said i was confident the 5.5mths stage was a growth spurt, now i am not sure. so easily do i forget about past stages when faced with a new one.
look forward to your comments, thanks.
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Magic Belly... re growth spurts, well both my ds had on off growthspurts for over a month... apparently that is not unusual as the breast milk changes consistency at about the 6month mark to cope with the more active baby... so yes it could be part of the growthspurt & teething & the start of solids & probably getting more mobile too.
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Hi, I just wanted to update you on my progress with Ollie. Last night was night 2 of sleeping through yipee!! first night he went untill 5.30 then needing a gentle pat to carry on, but last night he went down at 7.20 had DF at 10.30 then woke at 7.15am.... I have waited 26 weeks 3 days for a night without one disturbance and it came i'm so excited...speak soon sarah
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Yeah!!! Everyone's making progress. magicbelly, I agree withkatet about the growth spurt. DD has been on and off for this whole month. She's fine for a couple days, then will need a feed at night maybe a day or two. I keep offering extra at each bf and sometimes she takes it and sometimes she doesn't. Solids range from 9-15 oz each day so some days she is definitely hungrier than others.
Magicbelly, we were having sleep disturbances too like early mornings and wonky naps and it was remedied by switching dd to 2 naps. She needs to stay awake about 3.5 hours between sleeps now, but is much happier and napping and waking properly again. Makes the EASY 4+ hours so some awake times have 2 bfs and one solid feed, but it all works out in the end.
DD has slept through without intervention about 11 of the last 14 days! Hopefully this holds for a little while, it is blissful to have enough energy to tackle the day!
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Sarah Brown congratulations, glad to hear things are working for you.
Mommy in MJ & Katet thanks for the advice. I am topping up bf during the day as much as possible. Maximum awake time is slowely increasing from 1.4hr to 2 hrs now. Beyond 2hrs Chloe become difficult to get down so still has 2 sleeps and 1 nap daily but i note your advice and i think a change to her sleep cycles is ahead quite soon. i shall start increasing awake time when possible. Chloe slept through again last night so i agree that you you are both right on the mark. teething doesnt seem to bother her too much. much appreciated again.
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Just an further update confirming that my good night's sleep wasn't a one off. Although we had a rough night the other night with the start of a cold and the weather has been so hot here in Melbourne (the last few nights its been high 30s, up to 43 degrees during the day and 26/27 degrees (celsius) in my DS's bedroom overnight) he has not reverted back to waking every hour or so. I am still feeding him more during the day and it seems to have done the trick. It means I am not really on a 4 or even 3.5 hour EASY but it works so I am going with it. So thank you again Mommy in Moose Jaw. I am so glad I found this website and your thread! In fact last night I couldn't sleep because it was so hot & humid (27 overnight but about 80% humidity) but DS seemed to manage!
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Wanted to post an update myself: my babes are sleeping quite well now too, and it's been about a week of this. Well, you have to exclude one night of hell where both babies were throwing up everything they'd ever eaten (it was like the Exorcist in the nursery) but other than their tummy bug, the nights seem to be much improved. For me, I think it was just an "outgrowing it" thing rather than anything in particular that I did.
Good luck to everyone!!
Sarah