BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: mango_baby on February 08, 2006, 20:50:23 pm
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I have had so much difficulty. I can count on one hand how many times my 18 month DS has slept through. I have tried many different things, I think ending too soon. I admit I have not been consistent enough with any one technique. SO, I have determined what exactly I am going to do, write it down and consistently stick to it ( finally). I have a question. I read the talk a mom had with Tracy before she passed :( and i plan to follow the timed technique for reducing the feed before bed. I also am going to do walk-in/walk-out every 15 seconds. What do I do first? or do I do them both together, feed stories, lay in crib, settle and then start the walk in/out. Is it too many changes all at once? should I stick to just the feeding change and when he's settled into that, satrt on the walkin/out?. My DS is just getting over a terrible flu/fever, he is teething ( terribly right now, worse than ever), and is maybe having a growth spurt due to his age. But last night he screamed from 1 til 3, fell asleep for 10 min and then was up again to scream another hour. I feel terible, but I just let him cry in his crib, as I refused to take him out and I lay on my bed in the same room letting him know I was there but I would not talk him out because it was time to sleep. Finally at 430 I did take him out and fed him so I could get some sleep ( another thing I need to be consistant with- no feeding before 6 am).
Any insights would be appreciated,
Thank you,
Melissa
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Melissa -
I'm kind of confused by your questions but I'll do what I can. To clarify, are you nursing to sleep now?
What you do depends on you and your lo. It might be easier on both of you to do one thing at a time - first the feed, then the walk out/walk in. It will take longer but be easier IYKWIM. It will be quicker but more "painful" to do it all at once - like a bandaid.
When I sleep trained Henry at 18 months (after rocking him to sleep until that point and very few whole nights sleep), I wanted to do gradual withdrawal but he didn't cooperate. He refused to fall asleep with me in the room so I ended up doing walk out/walk in which took all of three nights and it was done.
I will say that you need to make a plan and STICK TO IT!!! Be consistent, be consistent, be consistent. Every time you cave (like feeding him in at 4:30am), he learns exactly what it takes to get you to give him what he wants and next time will go that far and even further to get you to give in. It may take some time to get it completely worked out - I planned for two weeks when I sleep trained Henry but it didn't take nearly that long.
One last bit of advice - post here with your progress. It's great to see how things are coming one day at a time and also to get encouragement from other parents here.
Good luck!!
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Firstly Henrys mama is a saint.
I did the walk in/out to the count of 10 after advise from
Sarah Henrysmama)
It really only did take 3 nights,and I went from night wakings
of 3-4 hours to sleeping through the night.
I agree that it's probably best to do one thing at a time,although
I never had a feeding problem,but to me I had completely lost
it with the sleep thing,so I would do what you think is the
most important thing for you first.
If your lo is anything like mine,then they can cry all night,I even
tried cio and she went for hours,so as Sarah said,if they cry for hours
and then you go to them,the next time they'll cry a bit longer,and so
on.
Let us know how you do.
BTW.The first night is awful.But persevere as it will be better by the
3 rd night.
Come here to vent if you need to
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Every kid is so different. When I did like Henry's Mama, and tried going in/out ... Carmela would CRY bloody murder :( It broke my heart and it seemed to go on like that forever...HOURS. I then went to CIO and she'd cry for 1/2 hour tops and knock herself out.....so really be open minded and do what's best for the child in my opinion.
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I am not a moderator but I have to post this - This is the Baby Whisperer site. This site advocates Tracy's methods, which do not include CIO. And although CIO may work, I firmly believe, as did Tracy, that it is not good for the baby.
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Thanks Sarah!! Right behind you there.
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Melissa,
Do you have Tracy's newest book? She details what to do with toddlers who've never slept independently. I think she even puts a plan together on what to do.
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Thank you all so much.
To have your ideas and support means so much in my tired desperate state.
To answer some questions, yes, I am nursing, however Roaen has nursed to sleep and slept a good 10 hours before, and as well it seems he has understood even if he gets nursed before bed that it doesn't mean he will get it if he wakes up in the middle of the night. So I think I can get away with doing the walk in/ out first and deal with the nurse to sleep after. At this point I just want to sleep, and I want him to sleep as he is a different toddler when he does.
He used to respond to PD at night, however now it just ends up in a screaming match where he continually stands up. After 3 hours of this, I can't take it anymore.
One concern is, having tried walk in/out before ( obviously not long enough) but I stopped because of the way he was reacting to it. He was just becoming hysterical when I left. I guess this will dissapear with consistency?? It just seems everything I have tried seems to backfire and end up in him having a screaming fit for hours.
I am willing to do walk in/out again, but how long is too long before I know it is turning into a negative thing, if that is possible? I am not willing to CIO, as one of you mentioned, if I was I would have a DS who would be sleeping by now, but I 100 % do not believe in that. So, that is not an option, sorry.
He is having a terrible time of separation anxiety right now, he clings to me in the middle of the night and won't let go. Is it okay to do walk in/out during this time? He does know I am still here for him. I am a stay at home mom ( have a teenager too- angel baby he was) so I hardly ever leave Roaen so it is not like he has to worry about that. But he seems to every minute of day and night.
Thank you all so much for your support. I felt like crying when I read all your responses. I see some light, I just have to be consistent and know that in his state of separation anxiety that it is okay to do this technique, as well as know that it is okay even if he screams hysterically for 4 hours. I will not give up again if my mind is at ease with this. To know he will eventually get it even after nights of hysterics. After all we made it through the same experience with PD.
I do have the babywhisperer solves all your problems. This is what I used for PD. I did follow the plan she set up and he did get better. PD does not seem to work anymore like it did before.
Let me know what Any of you think.
I'll keep you posted. I'm thinking of starting tomorrow night. I'll see what you wonderful ladies have to say first.
Melissa
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Melissa the only reason I mentioned CIO was because my daughter was also hysterical during pu/pd like you had said. With CIO she wasn't hysterical at all. It was the strangest thing. Like seeing me would make her want me, but out of sight out of mind. So I guess I shouldn't say I let her CIO because she didn't cry...I let her play it out or fuss it out I guess.
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'kay, gang, some clarification.
What' Carmela's Mom is describing is what we refer to as not rushing in, in the BW world. Her baby is not crying, she simply woke. In order for her baby to learn to go back to sleep on his/her own, she must provide opportunities to practice this skill. It's important to give your baby/toddler the opportunity to work things out on their own. There are times when I hear Emilio fussing/crying lightly in the middle of the night and I don't go in. I force myself to hold back and listen to him to assess the situation. Remeber, S.L.O.W. from the first book? If his crying escalates and sounds like an "I need you Mama cry," I go in straight away. If it's a fussy/half asleep cry, or is slowing down, I hang at his doorway and wait.
As for the toddler in question, you may be going through a bout of separation anxiety. Tracy often stated that using any type of CC/CIO with a toddler in the midst of sep. anxiety will only exasperate the problem. If your child is anxious that you will leave, and you DO in fact leave, even if only for a few seconds, you are simply confirming, that, "Yep, Mama will leave me, I have a good reason to fear it."
One of Tracy's suggestions for a child with sudden night wakings is:
** Pull a mattress into their room and sleep on the floor next to them. Even if they are crying and resisting, you are there and hence preserve the bond of trust between parent and child. Exactly HOW to attack the nightwakings is really something you should read in her new book. For a moderator to post the entire process would be like rewriting that portion of the book. However, shortened version is you will lay your child down over and over and over and perhaps firmly, yet lovingly hold them in place as you help them resettle.
** The fact that you've waffled between methods (not to feel badly over, many folks do too!!) confuses your child. You need to put together a game plan, find a time where you'll stick with it not matter what and truly TEACH your child a new way of going to sleep. A warning though: This will take weeks and weeks... you need to break down what the issues are and tackle them one by one. My suspicion is that your child relies you on as a prop and is used to nursing to fall back to sleep.
Because you have a myriad of issues I think, it truly is wisest to read the new book. It's just sooooo very much to try to retype and explain. The new book is specific to solving tons of problems........
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Thanks for your insights.........
I do have the new book, and have read it. Unless there has been a new one I am not aware of since BW solves all your problems. I did the PD method night after night for 6+ months and still he wakes up. That is okay, I can handle that. But now this method of putting down again and again doesn't resettle him. He winds up in hours of hysterics everytime. I KNOW I have screwed up when after night upon night of 2 to 3 hours of screaming I eventually take him out. I wasn't getting anywhere and standing at the edge of a crib with my back split in two with pain all for no change. So, at some point I did take him out. I know thats what he has learned now. I am familiar with Tracy's method for toddlers in the case of nighwaking. It just was having no effect on him. I usually have more determination than him ( which is a crazy amount) but at 4 am I start to dwindle.I have not fed him in the night for months and months until very recently. ( I guess this one or two times made him go off like this) As it stands right now, we sleep in the same room with my bed 3 feet from his crib. We have been in the same room for the past 7 months. I also wait until his sleepy sounds are actual "I need you mom" cries before I go to him. 8 out of 10 times it does escalate to this. He obviously. like you said needs me to resettle him. Walk in/ out will teach im to settle himself over time?
Please don't get the wrong idea if it sounds like i am knocking what you say, I truly value every one of your suggestions. However, I have been there, done that. I guess I screwed myself after taking him out that first time of 3 to 4 hours of hysterical crying.And at this point the only way to end everything was to nurse him as he was sooooo upset. I just couldn't stand at his crib anymore and here I am now today. So now I have to fix that. The process taking weeks and weeks makes me feel a bit sick to know I have to do walk in/ out like this for that length of time. Other seems to say a few days worked for them. Have I muddled things up so much???? I obviously will wait until he is over his separation anxiety and painful teething which seems to be doing a real number on him.
I guess I am just frustrated because it seems any technique works faster and better for everyone else. And here I am still doing PD 7 months later with things only getting worse.
I appreciate your time and experiences. I will try to help him when he is feeling more secure. Don't exactly know when that will be though.
Melissa
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Okay, after reading through the thread again, I think the first step is to identify what the issues are:
1.) teething
2.) sep. anxiety
3.) nursing to sleep?
Did he self soothe in the past? Does he use a lovey/suck thumb/use pacifier?
-- As for teething, I give my son a dose of Motrin before I go to bed at 10:00 or 11:00. I wake him slightly and give it to him half asleep.
-- My second son is also 18 mos. and had a terrible bout of sep. anxiety about two months ago. I absolutely could not leave him when going to sleep. I stayed with him and held him in place in his crib while he fell asleep. My two hands on him upset him at first since he was being restricted from getting up, but then became very reassuring to him and he settle quickly this way. I'd wait until he fell deeply asleep and over time weaned the length of time I held him in place so I was just standing by his crib, then slowly out of the room. All of this must be done very gradually.
-- My son no longer breasfteeds so we don't have a milk connection. If you think there is a strong one for your son, you may need to enlist the help of someone else.
:)
It sounds like you need a plan here and to really stick to it. It's important to not bail on your method. When you say you did PU/PD for six months, was it consistently implemented at every sleep time? Unfortunately when we do not carry through, we pretty much have to start over each time, or at least have setbacks. It sounds like he's really confused about how to go to sleep and is voicing his anger during this long crying bouts........ saying THIS ISN"T HOW I DO IT, HELP ME!!
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Hi! :)
It seems to be teething and sep anx. The nursing to sleep he proved to be okay with and understand that if he was nursed to sleep it still meant no milk during the night and we did put down. He was totally okay with this and was always back to sleep after 2 to 3 PD's. I was extremely consistent with PD for the 6 months. Did nothing else. He knew what to expect and responded. It was when he no longer layed down and went to sleep. I am not sure why or exactly when this happened. I was still being consistent, it was HIM that was changing the course of the night. Granted, eventually after so many nights of PD not working anymore I took him out, and obviously he has preferred that. (who wouldn't??) He should not have been confused about how to go to sleep as I have done the same thing since I did PD when he was 11 months old. I guess I did confuse him when I changed things after he was not responding. I suppose I should have waited and kept doing it for night after night for longer than a week. It was just frustrating because it was not kicking in the way it did before. With no explanation.
He has never used a paci. I didn't want to deal with any trying to get rid of it, as I have heard nightmares about this. I also never used one with my first and everything was fine. I introduced a lovely. Since 6 months + he doesn't want anything to do with it. I got a great bear and have tried with this. He seemed to respond at first, now he just chucks it out of his crib and likes pushing it away more than cuddling with it. He obviously knows it is trying to replace me. ( these spirited, touchy little ones are very bright as well as put up with nothing other than what they want). He has never sucked his thumb. I tried to introduce this when he was a wee one, But no again. He self sooths by playing with his fingers or with his hair. This is very hard for him and he struggles a long time before ho will even resort to doing this. I have held him down like you said and I had the same first experience as you. Now, he explodes as he does with every other bed occurrence.
There is not a strong milk connection as he goes for a nap without it and like I said before has proven to be okay with the night time with out it.
I will make a plan and stick to it. I started to do PD again last night, he kept falling back asleep then waking up a few mins later. he did this from 3-6 am. At six when he woke up again, I gave him milk. Then put him back in his crib he slept until 7 30. It seems like he is hungry because he will fall asleep but something keeps waking him up. He won't go fully back to sleep until he is nursed. I have tried to increase his daytime food, but they will only eat so much.
I'll try again tonite. The sep anx. is a tricky one with this. I won't do walk in/out until its better. At least I am in the same room for him.
Thank you so much again,
Melissa
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It seems to be teething and sep anx. The nursing to sleep he proved to be okay with and understand that if he was nursed to sleep it still meant no milk during the night and we did put down. He was totally okay with this and was always back to sleep after 2 to 3 PD's. I was extremely consistent with PD for the 6 months. Did nothing else. He knew what to expect and responded. It was when he no longer layed down and went to sleep. I am not sure why or exactly when this happened. I was still being consistent, it was HIM that was changing the course of the night. Granted, eventually after so many nights of PD not working anymore I took him out, and obviously he has preferred that. (who wouldn't??)
*** I agree that if you nursed to sleep for so long that the milk is probably not an issue with him. I nursed my first son close to sleep for a long time. Maybe try nursing until just drowsy, then stay with him patting his back or offering some sort of reassurance.
He should not have been confused about how to go to sleep as I have done the same thing since I did PD when he was 11 months old. I guess I did confuse him when I changed things after he was not responding.
*** I would have tried something new too. Of course you did. I do suspect though, that between the teething (especially if he'd not been having any pain medication) and the sep. anxiety, no amount of PD would have solved the problem. So, on to deal with those two issues, THEN, you can work your way back to totally independent sleep. At what time is his first nightwaking? Always the same time? Can you get in there and give him a dose of Motrin (lasts the longest) before he wakes?
I suppose I should have waited and kept doing it for night after night for longer than a week. It was just frustrating because it was not kicking in the way it did before. With no explanation.
*** Well, the explanation was a new set of variables that you'd not dealt with before. So, new uncharted territory. :)
He has never used a paci. I didn't want to deal with any trying to get rid of it, as I have heard nightmares about this. I also never used one with my first and everything was fine. I introduced a lovely. Since 6 months + he doesn't want anything to do with it. I got a great bear and have tried with this. He seemed to respond at first, now he just chucks it out of his crib and likes pushing it away more than cuddling with it. He obviously knows it is trying to replace me. ( these spirited, touchy little ones are very bright as well as put up with nothing other than what they want). He has never sucked his thumb. I tried to introduce this when he was a wee one, But no again. He self sooths by playing with his fingers or with his hair. This is very hard for him and he struggles a long time before ho will even resort to doing this. I have held him down like you said and I had the same first experience as you. Now, he explodes as he does with every other bed occurrence.
*** Did he have nightwakings before this teething/sep. anxiety occurred? This is when you did PD, right?
There is not a strong milk connection as he goes for a nap without it and like I said before has proven to be okay with the night time with out it.
I will make a plan and stick to it. I started to do PD again last night, he kept falling back asleep then waking up a few mins later. he did this from 3-6 am. At six when he woke up again, I gave him milk. Then put him back in his crib he slept until 7 30. It seems like he is hungry because he will fall asleep but something keeps waking him up. He won't go fully back to sleep until he is nursed. I have tried to increase his daytime food, but they will only eat so much.
*** Hate to say it, but you're his prop. He's using you to fall back to sleep. This has likely been intensified with the teething/sep. anxiety. It sounds like he doesn't really self-soothe on his own. I think I'd keep working on the lovey, yet use a blankie instead as they can grab onto it. Even if he tosses it, keep offering it again. Maybe use a t-shirt you've slept in so it smells like you.
I'll try again tonite. The sep anx. is a tricky one with this. I won't do walk in/out until its better. At least I am in the same room for him.
*** Yep, the sep. anxiety is a killer. :-\
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Hello,
First, thank you again. I know this is taking a while to sort out. There's a lot going on.
I will begin to nurse until drowsy then lay him down and reassure him.
His night waking used to be about 3, then it became 12, since he was so sick, then teething it has been a couple hours after going down. It is always 3 am that goes on and on. it seems anytime before that he is settled back down with PD within 5 min. Don't know what that is about.......why is it happening at 3 like this. I will try to give him his teething medication as I go to bed, I am just afraid of waking him this way. I would hate that. I'll give it a go.
He has always had night wakings since he was born. He goes in and out of better nights verses not so good, but as far as I understand this is completely normal with all that's going on in their little lives. Before teething, before sep. anxiety occurred, yes he almost always woke up. I can count on one hand how many times he has slept through til 5am. Yes, I always did PD during this time.
I had the feeling that I am his prop. It is obvious he is using me to fall back asleep just in the fact that as soon as he wakes up he stands up and cries out. I will keep working on the lovely. Maybe I am going about it wrong. I take it while he is being nursed, in the stroller, car etc. Is the what will get him attached?? I talk to him about it, saying it is his special bear friend who is there for him always and even when he wakes up at night his bear is there to cuddle. I'll try the shirt. The blanket is questionable, he HATES blankets, I think that is what sometimes wakes him up. If I have done Pd and he is almost asleep and I put the blanket over him, he will wake up and I will have to start all over ( did I mention he was a touchy little guy:) )
So, I definitely can't do walk in/out until sep Ax. is over. That makes complete sense the way you explained it before. It seems that this bout is lasting quite a while. He is naturally attached to me, and I to him. We are very close. This isn't a bad thing as it is what I wanted as a healthy way to encourage his sense of security. How will I know exactly when his sep anx. is done and I can start walk in/out. I realize this is probably different for all children but it seems I have forgotten life without this. Are there any general signs, or I guess I will know.
Ahhhhh it will all be better someday.
Thank you for your support,
Melissa
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Sorry I've been a bit absent.
When I first suggested the walk in/out for the count of 10,had you tried
that before?
The only reason I ask is that Emily's sep anx was absolutely horrendous.It became
so bad that I asked the HV to take her away as I couldn't cope anymore.She would claw
at me and scream and bite and pull my hair,anything to keep me with her.
I was finding myself pushing her away and shouting at her to get off of me.
Night time was the worst time as she'd spend hours screaming,like you 3-4 hours.
In the end I'd get angry and lay her down again and again (with slightly more force
than was necessary :-[)and then end up picking her up and giving her milk and
putting her back to bed.
The first night I did the walk in/out it took 51 mins.The screaming was heartbreaking
and several times I thought I was going to give in.But I didn't and when she finally went
to sleep,it was great.I went downstairs and DH couldn't believe I'd out her to bed at 6.15pm
and was downstairs before 10pm!!!
By the 3rd night it was taking 30 mins and after that it was only counting about 3 times.
I made sure I did stretching exercises to keep my mind off of the screaming,which really helped,
and as I was doing WW at the time,toned me up nicely.
Sometimes I still have to do it for the odd night,but I can cope with it now.
She still very clingy,but I make sure she knows where I am and I make her take my hand
if she wants to come with me anywhere.
Also if I'm in the kitchen,I sit her on the counter while I'm making tea etc.(as long as I can get to her in
a split second)
Take care and hang in there.I know exactly what you're going through and it's not nice
keep posting,especially to offload :)
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Sarah,
I wondered where you went !! :)
Yes, a while ago you did talk to me about walk in/out. I did stop as he was crazy upset, even more than with the initial PD. I thought there was something wrong, so i did not continue. Now that I know how it can POTENTIALLY go, thanks to you and your experiences ( of course I feel for you having gone through this). Knowing that it does go so difficult lets me know it's okay and to be expected. Your post sounds exactly like me in the night. I have been exactly in that place as well. Not a nice feeling.
Now I am confused though. Diego's mama said to definitely not do walk in/out during separation anx. I am prepared to do it, but I thought it may make matters worse givin our situation at the moment. That was in my last post. Is it okay then, or do I need to wait? Diego's mama said that I will be justifying his fear of me leaving that sep. anxiety has by actually leaving during walk in/out. Now I am confused. It seems like your life, once like mine is now, has grown much better since you did it. What should I do?
Melissa
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I know I read not to do it through sep anx,but,I was really at the end
and may have done something silly had I not done this.
Strangely though,when she was getting more sleep,she was less
anxious during the day.As I said,it hasn't gone completely,but at least
I can cope,knowing when she's in bed,at least she sleeps.
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Thank you everyone for all your help. You have been great. I now know exactly what to do and I appreciate all your time and support.
OF COURSE, for the past 2 night everything has stopped and he goes to bed, wakes at 4:30 and PD only takes 1 to 2 times and he is back asleep. He is an absolute joy all day. I was so muddled in it I hardly even realized how his temperment had become so miserable, clingy and whiny all day. We're on the up, and I feel now I can implement some techniques to encourage his self soothing and stop his dependance on me to fall back asleep at night.
Thank you all.
I'll keep you posted,
Melissa
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It is amazing how better everyone feels when the sleep gets sorted out! I'm glad things are working out for you now.
Keep us posted!
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Melissa you could be describing my dd! My dd is somewhat spiirited and I'm sure that I too have become "the prop in the room" which I'm trying to deal with so I'm very interested to see how things go with you.
A couple of things I've read about this type of personality is that they love routines and that it actually takes them a while to transition from one thing to another. I think in one of Tracy's books she talks about her older daughter being spirited and how she couldn't stray from a routine even a little or watch out! So first of all don't feel bad--it sounds like even the Baby Whisperer herself had some challenges with her spirited lo! One thing that you might want to do (although you are probably already doing this already) is keep the bedtime routine VERY structured, even down to the little things. One night while getting dd ready for bed I kissed her feet as I took off her socks--now she gives me her feet every night to kiss! so think of even the little things and try to keep those the same as even the small things seems to be important to this personality type.
I'm also going to try implementing the suggestion to talk about their day at winddown to help process it. Sometimes when my dd is awake at night I hear her talking about people and things so i figure that she may need t put her day behind her before moving on to night. One thing my nanny does at my lo's nap is to stand next to the crib and just talk about the morning and then tell her that it's naptime and that when she has a good sleep they'll go and pick my older dd from school etc. and then she leaves. My dd falls asleep in 10 minutes! I think this helps her adjust to being in the crib with the comfort of so being there and lets her know what to anticipate and is a comfort to her especially since she also has sep anx.
What also seems to work is not starting winddown before she'sr ready. My dd lets me know when she wants to go up to bed and surprisingly it is always around the time she is supposed to. She knows "nigh nigh" comes after dinner and some nights she wants to go up right away and other nights she may want to play for 10 minutes. I find if I try to get her ready before she wants it is a screaming fit waiting to happen whereas if I give her some control over the situation she's much calmer and seems to adjust better.
Don't know if any of this will help you. We're all keeping our fingers crossed for you!
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imsmum,
Thank you for your info. I have been wel aware that routine as well as transitions are a very important touchy subject with my little one. I knew this when he was just a few months old. We have the same bedtime routine as we have had since he was born ( a little longer now though and have added a few things ie massage). I agree with you on all you say. They are tough little ones, but very sensitive as well. We began going over the day at bedtime. Don't notice much difference.
Keep up the good work your doing, sounds like you know what your doing. I hope everything continues to get even better for you as time goes on. Thanks for your support.
Melissa