BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: mari on August 18, 2006, 11:21:16 am
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Right, I really am stumped with Alex.
She goes to bed no problems, always has, we have story, bottle of milk, kiss to everyone, got upstairs, close blinds and wave night night to the world and she goes to sleep, sometimes a whimper but nothing more.
Then she wakes, at different times, at the moment she is going through 11.30 phase, it used to be 2am, sometimes, she would sleep til 3.
Anyway, here's what happens when she awakes. I wait a little, not long, to make sure she doesn't go back to sleep, then I go in to her and she is crying, I touch her back or smooth her hair (things that soothe her in the day) but she kicks and writhes as if she is in agony. If i try to give he a drink of water/milk, she very often throws it at me. This goes on for the best part of 4 hours. I now have a put up bed in her room, but she is still awake the whole time, she puts her little hand out through the bars for me to hold her hand (when I finally settle her) but she still doesn't go to sleep.
What can I do, I am completely baffled, I have tried everything.
Any thoughts.
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Mari I am afraid I have no wisdom that I can impart really - just wanted to send you a big hug.
Just a thought.. does she have a night light? Or one of those moving lamps you could have on and she could lie and watch? Might help her to feel safer and calmer when she wakes?
H xx
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Just going to pop this over to toddler sleeping...
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This is going to sound odd but is Alex definately awake? Could it be night terrors and she appears to be awake when she isn't properly in fact?
Jo
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can you post your routine - that may help shed some light too.
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Oh she's awake alright, she is standing in her cot, and when I go in, she either stands with her hands out me. (I lay her back until I settle her) or she is laying down, and I just lay next to her and she puts her hand out and says, Mum, Hand, and I have to hold her hand all night. If I mistakingly think she is settled (I usually go to sleep) and go into my bed (more comfortable) she calls for me after about 5 mins.
Here is her routine
Wake 7.30am
wash and breakfast
Milk
play with toys until tired around 1030am
sleep 11am-12.30pm
Lunch 1.30pm-2pm
playtime/visiting/shopping either or
4.30pm-5pm dinner
6pm bath
6.30pm bottle of milk
7-7.30pm bed
She eats plenty but is sometimes off her food due to teething, she is cutting some big ones at the moment I think.
Hope you can help
Thanks
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My money is on her being overtired at bedtime--my lo did the same thing would be awake for hours and hours. try to push the nap back so that is no later than 5 to 5.5 hours from nap wakeup to bed--I know it's hard when they are so tried from a bad night's sleep they're practically dropping but do it in 15 minute increments coupled with as early a bedtime as she will go down for you. That combo was the only thing that got us past those dreadful night wakings good luck!
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hi Mari,
also agree on the over tired, try 5 hours from wake up so 12.30 nap time until 2.30. Maybe move foward gradually. DD still yawns around old nap time which was 10 and would prob sleep if I let her but I know it would create a mess. And the days she wakes at 7 make it 12/12.15, makes for an 11.30 lunch though with a12.30 nap time.
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Thanks ladies, I will try to move her nap time and will try it today, but I am getting a little worried about her as I think that she is in pain. The way she writhes and kicks about can't be normal. Last night was so bad from 11pm that we decided to move her cot in with us, (I can no longer sleep next to her on the putup bed, my back is suffering) so obviously she was wide awake by this time (she is wide awake anyway) and we gave her some milk and settled her, she did sort of settle, but woke 3 or 4 times crying and at 5am she woke and I got her in with us and she was still bad. This isn't unusual, for her to have hardly any sleep at all. (no wonder she could be overtired) but I have decided to take her to see the doctor on Monday just to put my mind at rest. She is teething, but this has now been going on since early July although she hasn't really slept properly since she was 8 months old (she slept all night previously from 12 weeks)
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Right, I have moved her nap time and she never goes to bed more than 5 hours after waking from her nap, she takes about 2 hours nap. She goes down about 12.30pm and wakes around 2.30pm and I never wake her (although DS is in school now and if it goes past the 3pm mark I will have to start waking her to go and get him) but she is a nightmare to go to bed now and is still waking in the night, still for a few hours. Any ideas?
She is driving me mad and I am losing patience, it is 2am and she is laying there awake and I know that she will call me in a few minutes and if I don't go she will wake the whole house.
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Hi,
I agree with the other ladies. I would make lunch time around 11 or 11:30, and nap time around 12 or 12:30. I wouldn't let her sleep more that 2hrs for nap time, so that she will be well rested enough to get through the rest of the day, but that the nap isn't taking away from her night time sleep.
I know this probably isn't very bw ish of me, but I think that although she is teething and may need some additional comfort, she is manipulating you. I wouldn't offer her a drink if she wakes up, as I wouldn't want it to become a habit. Explain to her before she goes to bed, that everyone is going to bed, and you will see her in the morning. It's ok if she wakes up, but she should lay quietly in bed until you come in to get her in the morning. Most times if they can lay quietly, they will eventually drift back to sleep. We used stickers as an incentive. If you can stay quiet all night until mommy or daddy comes in to get you, you get a sticker on your chart.
Good luck, Heidi
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I did move her nap time, but it just makes her fight night time sleep, and she is still awake at night. I do think that she is manipulating me, but what can I do, should I leave her to cry it out? I really don't want to go down this road as I tried it once and never again, she made herself sick. Also I have DS to worry about, I don't want her to wake him. Could she be the type who doesn't need a lot of sleep, is that possible for a 20 month old. Also, as for a reward system, I am all for it, but she is only 20 months and I would have a job explaining this to her, I mean she would need to sleep through to get an award so that she can see what is happening, but I can't get her to sleep through. Am I destined for a life of sleeplessness, I really am getting fed up with her, I know that's an awful thing to say, but although I stay calm at night time and try to settle her back, having to do this night after night is so tedious that I find myself waking to her crying and me thinking, 'damn child' and I sometimes have to wait a few minutes to go in to her as I know that I am not in the right frame of mind, I would end up just shouting at her, and that wouldn't be any good for anyone. It's just been going on for so long that I am fed up. What the heck can I have done so wrong, she used to sleep through until 8 months old, then it all went pear shaped.
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First of all, Tracy and this site do not recommend or condone CIO. Please don't leave her to cry by herself if she wakes during the night.
Secondly, I completely understand where you're coming from being totally fed up with her night wakings. It can be so difficult to deal with. Don't beat yourself up about the way you feel, just try really hard not to show it to her. That will just make things worse.
I suggest using wo/wi to deal with her night wakings. Its detailed in the FAQ section of this forum under Teaching independent sleep - methods. She needs to learn that she's not going to get anything from you by waking during the night other than brief comfort to make sure she's okay. I know you're concerned about her waking your ds. I would get a fan or some white noise for his room while you're using wo/wi to try to mask her sounds during the night. Once she learns she's not getting anything by waking during the night, it should stop.
HTH!
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I have done walk in walk out, it lasted about 2and half hours and I gave up as I was too tired, it was 4amish. I will try again though if you think this will work, I have tried this at bed time recently, as I had an excellent bedtime routine as we would have a story, milk and kiss to everyone and off to bed and she would lie there, always around 7.30pm she would be fast asleep. Now, since moving her nap I am having a nightmare getting her off as she doesn't seem to be tired enough and I have to stay close by as she climbs out of her cot, not always, but she has done it I am always afraid that she might do it again, I do walk in walk out, but I find that she is waiting for me to walk in to her, she stands on the edge of her cot and laughs when I come in and lies down, then I leave and she is straight back up again, she thinks it's a great game, at least before I moved her naptime she would go to sleep ok and could get the ironing done, you should see the pile there now since she hasn't gone to sleep until 9.30pm.
I don't condone cry it out either, I just wondered if the previous posty was recommending that? I tried it once as a last resort after trying everything and I think that I cried more than she did, I definitely don't think that it would work. To be honest, I don't think that anything will work. I don't know, babies and sleep, what is wrong with them, if someone lay me down in a cot and told me to go to sleep, whatever the time, I would sleep that's a sur thing (chance would be a fine thing though eh!)
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Hi Mari,
I have tried CIO, and I found that the reward system was much more effective for my dd. Show her the chart and the "special" stickers that go on it. As for the crying, for me it depended on what type of cry it was. If it was a legitimate cry, I would go in, lay her back down and walk out. If she cried again, I would wait a moment and then go back in, and repeat the process... If she was "fake" crying, I would just leave her. I have a 8mth old ds as well. So when we had the sleep issues with my dd, I left his music on all night and left the house fan on to help block out the noise.
Good luck, Heidi
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I have tried music, but she was dancing to that. Honestly, she really doesn't seem tired. I am also a little reluctant to do too many changes all at once. These are the changes that I have made and there is an improvement, she is awake for 2 hours instead of four during the night! I have switched her naptime from 11.30 to 12.30pm now, she sleeps until 2.30 usually but today I had to wake her to take her to the doctor for her injection so we will see if any of that affects her, I moved her bed to the other side of the room and installed a night light.
I really think that she is too young for the reward system, but the first time that she sleeps throught the night I will give her a reward and show her and hopefully she will understand. Thanks all, I will keep you posted
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I understand your frustationmoitoring and worrying about my dd's sleep has become part of my everyday life too. Be patient, I know it's difficult but it will get better. Just a question, when you say she fights sleep at night is that when she is going down at night or when she wakes during the night? How is she when she goes down for her nap and night sleeps?
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rYes, it's at bedtime that she fights sleep, and when she wakes during the night. She neverr used to fight it at bedtime, but now since I moved her nap time to later she fights her bed time sleep. She goes fine for her nap, sometimes a little grizzle, but she falls to sleep herself, she also falls to sleep herself at bed time but it's after about 2 hours of messing in her cot, sometimes playing, then I have to go in to her cause she starts to cry, etc. I spend 2 hours of up and down the stairs or standing outside her bedroom door ready to go when she cries as I can't leave her as she climbs out of her cot.
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I know it's frustrating, but she needs some time to adjust. What time is nap time? If she is having trouble going to sleep at night, try putting her in at 12, and don't let her sleep past 2. Make sure that she is very active in the afternoon, so that she will be tired when she goes to bed.
I hope she adjusts soon, as I know how hard and aggravating it is to deal with.
Hugs!
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Right then, this si driving me crazy.
This is what happened yesterday. She woke at 7.30 am after a restless night (again) and I put her to nap at 12.30 but had to wake her at 2pm to get to the doctor as she had to have an injection (pneumonia for under2) anyway, she had the jab, we got DS from school then she had her tea and then after a nice play on the trampoline we had our bath then a story then milk then bed and she went at 7.30pm no problem, just lay down and went to sleep. I didn't hear her all night, she slept the whole night through and I didn't go to her once, she woke this morning, bright and breezy at 7.40am,
So today, I put her to sleep at 12.30pm and she slept and I woke her at 2pm and we had a play, got DS from school, had our tea then she played again on the trampoline then she came in and had her bath and then a story and milk, then she went to bed at 7.30pm, but she was still awake at 9pm. What the hell am I doing wrong here??? Can anyone work this girl out because I can't. I will let you know what kind of a night I have, and if she sleeps throught then I will eat all my words, but I don't think that it will be a good night somehow.
Perhaps she slept well after the injection, she did when she had her first injections at 12 weeks and so on, so should I book an injection once a week so that I can have a rest. lol (only joking about that, honest)
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Let us know how your night goes.
Heidi
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It's 2am and she is up there awake.
Does anyone know how I go about getting somebody in here to help me as I really don't know what I am doing wrong. I have heard of people getting help this way and after a year I think that this is the only hope. I have tried everything. I have run out of ideas now and before she goes to sleep with the rabbit I should give this one last try, has anyone had this kind of help in the UK?
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I really think she's confused. It seems like you've tried so many things to get her to sleep independently that she just doesn't know what she's supposed to do. It can be straightened out and YOU can do it.
This is what I recommend -
1. Keep her nap at 12:30pm - that seems to be working well for her nap. I would not wake her unless she sleeps past 2:30pm. Otherwise, let her sleep.
2. Put her to bed at 7:15pm every night unless she didn't nap. If she didn't nap, push it earlier to 6:45pm.
3. Use wo/wi consistently for bedtime, naptime and night wakings until she stops crying. If you do it for 2 hours and then stay in the room with her or help her to sleep, she'll figure out that she just has to cry long enough to get her way. The next night she'll cry even longer trying to achieve the same result. Its so incredibly important to be 100% consistent. For wo/wi, just to clarify, do your nap/bedtime routine, put her in her crib, tell her night night and walk out. If she cries (and I'm talking crying, not just whining or playing), count to 5/10/15 seconds depending on her cries, walk in, lay her down with no eye contact or conversation, and walk out. If she stops crying during your count, DO NOT GO IN. If she starts crying again after she's stopped, start your count over again. If she's just in there playing, ignore her. She'll go to sleep when she's ready.
4. Considering what you've written about her attempts (some successful) to get out of her crib, you might consider switching to a big girl bed. That will create new issues that we'll have to deal with but she may be uncomfortable in her crib and if she's climbing out, its unsafe.
That's all I can think of right now. I know how frustrating it is when you child won't sleep. Henry didn't sleep through the night until he was 18 months old. Its exhausting. But you CAN make it better. You just have to believe that you can and be 100% consistent.
Post back with any questions. I'll do whatever I can to help you.
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Hi Mari-
Just wanted to encourage you to try what Sarah posted, exactly as she posted it. I know that WI/WO can be tough to stick with, but if you stick with it, you should see results. We were just there a few weeks ago outselves -- DD had been sick and was up for hours every night -- I tried laying on her floor b/c at first I think she did need me there, but after while she couldn't fall asleep with me there (much like your LO). After I realized this I put a few hours (yes, hours) into WI/WO one night, never leaving her more than 10 seconds of consistent crying and eventually she went to sleep....and the next night was better. I'm sure I had fast results b/c DD has always been a good sleeper, but success stories of other ladies tell me you can get there too as long as you are VERY consistent (which is hard). Good luck!
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If she's just in there playing, ignore her. She'll go to sleep when she's ready.
Just to clarify, she actually plays for about 2 - 3 hours, could this be why she is still overtired, I put her down 7-7.30pm and she doesn't fall asleep until 9-10pm sometimes. Does she need a little help? I don't have this problem with her day time nap, only at bedtime, but it has only started to happen since I switched her nap time.
Babies are more complicated than men.
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Mari I agree babies are worse than men, well at least sometimes :) In the last 5 weeks dd has been taking longer to fall asleep, 20 mins at lunchtime and up to and over an hour at night, then wakening like a dog the next day, also wakening earlier in the am, only by half an hour so 7 am, but it just all adds up and equals an over tired dd. Nap time here is always 12.30 though today was earlier as she is a bit off colour. Bed time was 7.30 and then over an hour of chat, often 9pm ish before asleep. Dh wouldn't let me put her any earlier as he gets home from work around 6.30 or 7.00. He is on a business trip and since he went I have her in bed at 7.15. First night she was asleep by 8.15 and awake 7.00 next day but was much happier. Then she got a head cold so I gave her meds, still 7.15 bed and 7.40 asleep. My theory now is she is going to talk for so long anyway so I will put her to bed earlier as long as she doesnt waken at some ungodly hour :-)
Good luck, it's v frustrating
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Wha if she's not crying, but just standing in her cot, generall having a little party of her own, she is never going to fall asleep surely, and I am terrified that she will try to climb out if I don't keep a close watch. Sorry to be paranoid, I am getting that way and I am sure that it's makes matters worse.
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I understand your concern about her climbing out of her crib. Can you keep an eye on her somewhere where she can't see you? Either that or consider switching her to a big girl bed.
If she's just playing in her crib, ignore her. You don't have to intervene. She'll go to sleep when she's ready. I know how hard that can be - there are times where Henry is in his crib until 10pm (!!!) playing but I know I can't make him sleep so I just ignore him.
If she's not crying, you've done your job. Be proud that she's in her crib playing, not needing you to help her go to sleep.
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Mari I know it's late in the day but would you try a sleeping bag/grobag? They can stand up but cant climb out of the cot. Otherwise I think I might be inclined to move to a big bed, start the whole sleep thing again and hope for the best, dont know if you have anything to lose at this stage, though may take a while to settle into it. I think the first time dd attempts to get out of her bed I will move her but we are using sleeping bags so hopefully it's a long time away.
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A grobag is a great idea! I kept Henry in his as long as he'd let me simply because it stopped him from even trying to climb out of his crib. Don't know why I didn't think of that!
They also make crib tents that go over the top of the crib to keep toddlers in their cribs. Might look into something like that - at least that way you won't be afraid that she'll climb out.
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Had a problem with a grobag, she got her head stuck in the arm hole. She is a little houdini, she gets out of anything, car seat, pushchair. I sound so defeatist don't I , sorry. I have checked her car seat straps and the highchair, and they are really tight, but she still gets out somehow. and I am afraid of the gro bag as she struggles so much, she is one determined little girl. must go crying
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Again, I understand. I stopped putting Henry in his grobag when he figured out how to unzip it and take it off. He wasn't getting tangled in it, I just didn't see any reason to give him something else to play with in his crib rather than sleep.
I don't know where you can find one in the UK, but here's the link to a crib tent like I described . . .
http://www.onestepahead.com/product/86193/309775/117.html
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No not defeatist,just desperate,can understand it. DD has 2 grobags from grobag.com or bumpto3.com. The pink check one she could get her arms out of but the one called "down on the farm" has tight underarms which she has difficulty getting her arms out of, me too even when helping her but they are not too tight when she is in it iykwim.
Could you try a snuggle sac as a temporary solution before big girls bed? It's like a sleeping bag with a built in pillow, they look very cute and maybe bribery could work ;D ?
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The cosy crib looks great, can't even see one on ebay though.
I will see when dh is next in the states or perhaps one of his colleages could bring one over for him, thanks for that
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OK, she has gone off now, it took 1 and a half hours of walk in walk out. Thanks to you all for being there whilst I did it, I had computer in my bedroom and posted during the walk outs!
I must get to bed early tonight as I feel that I have another long night ahead.
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Nothing on UK ebay,but I have emailed it to DH and I hope that he is now on the case. Thanks
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DH ordered one with one of his colleagues who is due to return to the UK at the end of this month so thank you for that.
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Yeah! Hope it works for you. How did last night go?
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Well, after walk in, walk out from 7.30pm she finally settled at 8.45pm, not bad I think and she slept the whole night through, in fact, I didn't hear a peep. I went to check her at 10ish and put the blanket back over her and she slightly stirred (That was scary.lol) but that was all I heard. I woke at 5am and wondered if she was ok, so had a peep, heard her breathing so went back to sleep. I feel great today.
She slept at 12.30pm today and I woke her at 2.30pm and she has had her story and milk and she is now laying chatting to herself. It's when she starts to get ffed up that she tried to escape!
Thanks for your help so far, hopefully it's downhill from now. fingers crossed eh!
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Yeah for last night!! That's great! I'm sure you feel like a new woman today! Just over an hour really isn't bad at all for a first night. Great job!
Hope tonight goes as well.
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Last night she woke at 3.30am and I did walk in walk out until 4.30am, but I did change her nappy half way as it was really wet. I just told her that I was going to change it and did it as quickly as poss and left again.
One question, when she cries and I count to 15 then go to her, she doesn't realise I am there as she is crying with her eyes closed and often turned the other way, should I still go to her. I put my hand gently on her back until she stopped last night then left again. Is that ok. Also, sometimes she cried and when I came in she would stop, but as soon as I started to leave she would scream as she knew that I was going, so I stayed until she stopped again, then left. Am I doing it ok.
Sorry for so many questions, I just don't want to give her the wrong vibes, I think that she has had too many from me so far.
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Hi mari,
we had a similar bedtime nightmare couple of weeks ago. It went for several days similar to how you described:
"I am having a nightmare getting her off as she doesn't seem to be tired enough and I have to stay close by as she climbs out of her cot, not always, but she has done it I am always afraid that she might do it again, I do walk in walk out, but I find that she is waiting for me to walk in to her, she stands on the edge of her cot and laughs when I come in and lies down, then I leave and she is straight back up again, she thinks it's a great game,"
Yes, IT IS a game - i have read somewhere that it is very important to react absolutely the same way each time you walk in, walk out.
If you ar getting angry or desperate or if you laugh or if you show any kind of emotions than this will appear very interesting and amusing for the child so why not try again and see how mummy is (re)acting ;)
The suggestion I have read was to be absolutely cool, a kind of poker face...always acting the same way always saying the same words. My husband has volunteered for this job as he is much better in staying calm. He went in, put BB back and told him: "No, now it is not playing time now it is bed time. Good night." He didn´t left the room if BB stood in the crib (because than he climbed out) but hold back and waited whether BB stands up. If yes he put him down again, said the same words, etc. He just walked out if BB didn´t stand and he walked in again if BB stood up, or started to cry, etc. He didn´t show emotions, said always the same words- I was kind of fascinated how he managed acting like this since I wouldn´t have been able to...
Finally BB got tired as nothing new has happened. He gave up and fall asleep.
This has worked for us within 3 days - maybe it could be for you an efficient way for doing walk in walk out at bed time and later on in the night as well?
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Its actually good that you let her know you're there when you go to her. She needs to know that you'll be there if she needs you, which you're accomplishing by touching her back.
I would not stay until she stops crying. The goal is for her to settle herself, without you there. If you stay until she stops crying, she's not settling without you there. Make sense?
One waking for an hour is not bad at all. It sounds like overall you handled it very well. Great job!! Keep up the good work.
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OK, so it's alright to adapt to suit the individual baby, so long as I am consistent right? I just don't want to give her any reason to play, but as she went to sleep within an hour and I have had a couple of nights without waking then I guess I'm on the right track. Phew, I never realised babies could be this complicated, you need to be a professor to work this one out!!
Thanks again girls, she is in her cot talking away again and it's 8pm so fingers crossed that I can crack that bottle of wine a little earlier tonight.
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Guess what, put her to bed 7.45, was a bit late as had to take ds swimming lessons, and she chatted for a while, then went off to sleep, just like the good old days! She dropped off around 8.15pm with NO walk in walk out. I just laid her in her cot and said good night, gave her a kiss and told her that I would see her in the morning. I hope it's not too early in the morning, but I think that this is the way forward.
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Hooray! The chatting for a bit and then dropping off to sleep is always a good sign for my DD. Hope you have a good night.
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To answer your earlier question, the fact that its adaptable to suit you and your lo is part of the beauty of Tracy's methods. Its absolutely fine to adapt it as long as you are consistent.
Congratulations on your success!! Hopefully she'll sleep trhough again for you and won't wake too early. Good luck!
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OK, I have been almost too scared to post this but she has slept through the night twice in a row, I haven't needed to do walk in walk out for three days now at bed time but only on Saturday night during nightwakings. I am so excited, I hope that this is it. I put a sippy cup in her cot (as Tracy advised in one of her books) and told her that she has a drink in case she gets thirsty and she needs to go to sleep now and Mum loves her so much and I kiss her, she kisses me back and holds my neck for a cuddle and we have a huge cuddle and then I give her another kiss and leave the room and then she chats away for about half an hour then drops off. I so hope that this is one of my last posts here (no offfence intended, it has been a pleasure) but I hope to see you on the other boards instead.
thanks again, I cannot thank you enough for all your encouragement and support, all of you here.
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Yeah!! No offense taken - its wonderful when you can stop posting because you've had success!!
Congratulations on a great job!!!
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Do you think that it would be ok to try her nap a little earlier or am I going to spoil a good thing. The problem that I have is that I need to go to playgroups due to my childminding business and they need to be afternoon playgroups as I am dropping off and picking up from school in the mornings. Most of the playgroups start at 1pm, so I was thinking that would it be ok to put her to nap at 11.30-1.30pm. If you say to leave her be, then I will find another solution to the playgroups situation as Alex is my priority, but she is still finding it difficult to go to sleep at night until 8.30ishalthough I put her down at 7pm, but she sleeps through (with occasional wakings some night for which I walk in walk out) until 7.30am.
What do you think?
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Remind me - what time is her nap now?
You can always try a different nap time and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, go back.
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Her nap time is 12.30pm - 2.30pm, so you think that I can risk pulling it forward 15 mins per day whilst over the weekend so that I can get her into a 11.30-1.30pm nap time so that I can make a playgroup for an hour in the afternoon.
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Sure - give it a try. Again, if she starts having short naps, you'll probably want to stop but as long as she continues napping well, no reason you can't "reschedule" her.