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....So I had a read about the pressure through the jolts...blimey sounds like I need 3 hands as my baby certainly benefits from eye shielding...
Thank you very much!
I replied to you in my other post in more detail but just to say I appreciate the help and advice I get from you very much!
Thank you very much for getting all this time to reply.
Now I understand better.
This morning I tried again, got him to fall asleep in the cot, managed to get through the first jolt with some protesting but picked him up anhe settled easily, fell back aslep in his cot for another 10-15 mins then he jolted again awake and got hysterical, no amount of shuh patting made him relax so I paced the house holding him and fell back asleep.
Bloody hard work this is!
I will have a look at the link you sent me see if that helps with these jolts.
Again thank you so much.
I do have another question hopefully you can answer.
One of the main reasons for trying to teach him to self settle and fall asleep independently is that I am worried sick about the 4 months sleep regression. He now goes 8-8.5 hs at night with no wake which is more than I could have wished for but knowing about  the change in sleep that happens around 4 months I really worry this falling asleep being held in arms will come back to haunt me.
Am I worrying for nothing? Might he not get affected after all by this sleep regression even if he doesn't self settle?
Night Wakings / 4 month old keeps waking every two hours - help!
« Last post by Roisin n on Yesterday at 10:32:15 »
I have recently transitioned my 4m old on the 4 hr easy routine, and she has started waking a lot more frequently (every two hours) at night. she doesn't always wanted feeding, but  does take a while to go back off.

Here's a rough outline of our day

W/u - 730

Eat - 7:30
A - 2 hours
S - 1 hr 20
Eat - 11:15/11:30
A - 2hrs
S- 12:30 - 2hrs
Eat - 2:30
A - 2 hours
S-45 mins
E - 5pm
A - 2 hrs
B/t and last feed - 7pm

She usually wakes at 9:30 crying and wanted another feed. I try to get her back off but she usually wakes 20 -30 mins later. I try and do the dream feed about 10/10:30 if she doesn't wake.

She then wakes at 12:30 but goes back off once I put the dummy back in. She then wakes at 2:30 and again and 4:30. I have tried to get her back off during the 4:30 feed but she keeps waking so I give another feed (pretty sure she's not actually hungry though) she then usually goes until 7/730.

Her  naps are getting better, she used to only sleep for 45 mins but still wakes around then but resettles easier with a bit of help from me sometimes.

Any advice would be appreciated as I am so tired and exhausted! :)
Night Wakings / Re: 8 month old EW 5:00am
« Last post by creations on Yesterday at 10:26:30 »
Hi there
I agree with pp that keeping a record of your EAS times is really useful during these phases of tricky sleep and routine change.
If you don't see patterns in the records yourself there are likely members of the community willing to have a look for you.
As pp said the pattern may not be equal A times across the day but rather more of a pattern for each nap.

Otherwise at 8 months you can go directly to something approximating an appropriate routine for age and just stick with it, resettle when needed, and hope that it works out.
Night Wakings / Re: Early waking a
« Last post by creations on Yesterday at 10:18:48 »
Hi there Kimbayley
It looks to me like your LO is not really settling to sleep even if in a sling (well, looked like 30-40 min nap). What happens if you hold him throughout a nap? Does he sleep better?

I know there was mention of possible reflux on your other thread. I must say, looking at how much he is wriggling and fussing and not sleeping in the day, with those very short CNs I would look at reflux possibility again.
Hi there
How are things going now?  Same?

Looking at your routine, if he's been refusing the CN a while and is still doping so I would just push those A times to 3hrs. He may well be OT for the push but overall you really ned to reduce the last A time which is far too long before his night sleep.  If you push the A time to 3hrs just be prepared to help him with his naps a bit more than usual if he wakes with OT at say 20 mins or so - you can do a W2S and shush/pat him through if this happens.  Over a number of days he should get used to the longer A time in the day.

With the night feeds. It's normal for a 6 month old to still have a DF or a NF. It is coming up to the time to drop the NF but not all babies are going to be ready for that at 6 months, if yours isn't ready yet that's fine. I would think one night feed would be enough if he's formula fed although a growth spurt can increase that need but usually only lasts a few days, not weeks.
The 2am feed I would probably make your formula a normal (not watered down) and offer a smaller amount.  Then have a separate bottle at the ready with just water.  If he drains the smaller amount of milk and is asking for more offer the water.

Taking 3 meals at this age doesn't reduce the need for milk in the night, if anything it can increase it because LO has filled up on solids rather than milk and then still needs the calories from the milk.  It sounds like he is only having small solids meals though so I wouldn't worry too much about that.  His milk intake during the day should not reduce at all with the introduction of solids - it needs to stay at a good intake for several months yet.
Do make sure you are offering water at solids meal times so that he is not thirsty.

routine might looks like this:
WU 6.30
E 7
E 8 solids
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 11
E 11
E 12 solids
A 3hr
S 2 - 3.30
E 3.30
A 3hr
E 6
BT 6.30
DF/NF 10.30 as much as he wants, formula not watered down
NF 2am ish reduced amount, say the 3oz, water in different bottle if needed (see how this goes as you can likely reduce the oz every couple of days so this feed is gone in a week)

If he is waking early due either OT at night or the first nap coming too early for him then I'd hold out for that nap to come as close to 9.30 as you can.  Putting him down earlier may hold off some OT but longer term it can take longer to get your routine back on track.  If you watch the clock for a few days and stick as closely as you can to a suitable routine you should, hopefully, help him back on track and get better sleep more quickly.

you might also need to have his meds checked if he has put on weight. I think it might be a couple of months since he started meds now.

I hope this helps
General Sleep Issues / Re: tackling only one nap when sleep training
« Last post by creations on Yesterday at 09:36:26 »
Babies often build habits for each nap so for instance when my LO was very young he was in the bait of sleeping only in his cot and I had to make sure I ws home for every nap time which honestly was a bit of a drag especially when A times are short, he wouldn't sleep anywhere else as I had not accustomed him to that habit.  When he was a bit older than yours he was in the habit of napping in his own cot for his first nap (2hrs) and in the car for his second and third naps (one on the way somewhere , one on the way home) - this made it much much easier to get out and about, I timed leaving the house to give us a couple of mins to get settled in the car and set off and he would be happily asleep in moments, if I left the house a little late he'd be letting me know he was tired and needed to get to the car fast!  Whilst that meant going out 5 or 6 days per week at the same time each day was predictable and consistent, and he slept easily in the car seat for those naps, I really wanted to be able to just stay home one day per week and chill out, maybe even have a nap myself, and I found this incredibly difficult.  His habit was to sleep in the car for that second nap and when I didn't want him in the car he found it very hard to sleep even though he self settled and slept wonderfully in his cot for the first nap of the day.
The habits we instil stick - it is up to us parents to decide what we need or want (based around baby's needs of course) and implement it.
If or When we need those habits to change it is up to us to help LO with the change and instil the new habit.

LOs will/can also create habits for each care giver so whilst one might feed to sleep or push baby in the pushchair for a nap another caregiver puts them down for independent sleep - and baby will respond accordingly, they know what to expect.  It can bee seen when two parents are sleep training together baby may seem to "regress" when the second parent goes in for their turn because baby hasn't yet realised both parents are going to follow the same method.

Starting with the first nap of the day is great - this is where I'd always suggest if it is possible. Baby has had a restful sleep from the night and there is a level of consistency already.

It is really up to you if you continue now with the gentle sleep training or wait a few weeks. The process and time taken is going to be about the same.  Babies can and do change their habits but are likely to protest during the change until they get used to the new habit, which your LO will with your support.
The important aspect really isn't how old your LO is but if you are ready yourself for this.  If you are not ready we will still be here when you are :)
Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Last post by creations on Yesterday at 09:18:28 »
Hi there MiaSky and welcome to BW forums :)
sorry to see you didn't get any support yet.

From what you've said it sounds like she's never been great sleeping at night - what do you usually do at night to help her settle again?  What methods did you use to sleep train in the first instance?

It could be a developmental leap - has she started to walk/run recently? this can often cause sleep disturbance.  Also many of us find that around the birthday time sleep goes off track (even for my 6yo!) and gradually comes back on track again.

It could also be that she needs a slight tweak to her routine - could you post your EAS times and we can have a look?
There's a bit of info here about pressure through the jolts (we tend to call it HTTJ here, holding through the jolts) if you scroll down towards the end of the post:
You might have more success with increased pressure and more 'hands on' at that 10 min mark especially if the 10 min jolt is predictable, not all jolts are predictably timed though so you just do what you can and don't stress about what you can't.

Light sleep and jolting is very normal and natural for young babies. Although as parents we would love them to sleep deeply and peacefully (and for a long time so I can have a shower, thank you!) it is safer for babies to sleep lightly.  The SIDS guidance warns against various things (which when you think about them are often the methods and tricks which previous generations did to make babies sleep more deeply) as it is safer for babies to sleep lightly. For us parents though it means these early months are pretty hard work - just keep reminding yourself this is a safer way.

If LO is crying yes you pick him up and use your shush/pat (or adapted) in arms until he is calm and then get him back to sleep in the cot (asleep in arms with shush/pat if needed then transfer to cot to continue shush/pat).  If possible, over days/weeks you put him down earlier, drowsy, but continue to shush/pat all the way to sleep in the cot...and then further down the line you reduce the shush/pat in the cot so that you stop just before he nods off even if you need to start up again once he is asleep or stay there to HTTJ (in this instance he learns to fall to sleep without patting, he practises each nap time, but he still gets help with those jolts and sleep cycle transitions so that later on he can also learn to get through those).

Shush/pat is not considered a prop as it is easily weaned over time.  It is a method that you return to whenever LO needs additional help, and reduce again.  At this point your LO is learning what it feels like to be asleep with his weight on the mattress of his cot, it is fine for you to sooth and help him feel confident and safe whilst he learns that feeling.  so even if you pat all the way through his nap he is still learning something towards independent sleep.  As this becomes easier (because he is more confident) you can reduce some.

Sleep training may well impact night sleep but the bigger picture is that you are moving towards self settling which means better sleep overall for both you and baby.  It is a process you and he go through together as a team.  It won't always go right in these early days. It can be hard work. But equally each nap time is a bonding time and an opportunity for you both to learn something and get better at it.
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