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Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: Dropping the nap
« Last post by evwright on April 23, 2018, 19:53:58 pm »
Hi, thanks for that - we'll give it a go for a few days and see what happens x
Naps / Re: A time? almost 4mo but born 2.5w earlier
« Last post by jessmum46 on April 23, 2018, 19:17:52 pm »
Generally I wouldn't consider 2.5 weeks early and would just go with the guide times (to begin with) for your baby's age.  That said, they are only a guide :D and babies are all individuals who will need more or less time awake according to their personalities and needs.  2h A time would actually be fairly typical for 4 months - see this link: - so assuming your LO was reasonably well-rested going down for the nap I'd say more likely undertired with a long settle (during which there is little stimulation) and therefore a short nap.  Perhaps try putting down 10-15 mins later and see what happens?
Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: Dropping the nap
« Last post by creations on April 23, 2018, 19:17:38 pm »
Hi there
You said that you are not bringing BT earlier when the nap is now shorter, presumably because he is waking at 3.30 still so you are continuing with the 9pm BT but he is getting less nap time so I think you could go for an earlier BT after the shorter nap even though the second A time would be shorter than it was previously.
Also on the days he is missing the nap altogether I would probably try even earlier BT, you said 1hr earlier and disturbed nights, I'd try even earlier BT, maybe even 2hr earlier.

General Sleep Issues / Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Last post by jessmum46 on April 23, 2018, 19:13:37 pm »
Edit - sorry must have just hit post as Creations did the same!

Hi and sorry you're both so tired out - these little people are amazing but hard work!

So the first thing that would help to know is are you aiming for the 'standard' 4h EASY which has 2h A time, and 2x2h naps with a catnap?  If so, that may be a big part of your difficulties now she is 6 months.  That standard routine is very appropriate for a 4 month old, but by 6 months many babies can handle 2.5-3h A time and are headed towards the 3-2 nap transition, if not there already.  Having an inappropriate routine is one of the commonest reasons for troubles with PUPD and I suspect you will see success far quicker by making sure what you are aiming for is realistic. 

Could you perhaps post a typical day for her now, when she wakes/sleeps etc and for how long?  That might help us to guide you as to what sort of routine to aim for. 

Have you seen the FAQs about PUPD?

And also this one about the 3-2 transition?

Just to pick up on one or two small points - you can definitely use shh pat for a baby who sleeps on their back :)  We all know that's the safest place for a baby to sleep from a SIDS point of view and it just becomes a case of adapting it to make it work.  One of mine I sat next to her with my hand kind of laid across her nappy area/tummy and patted the hip on the opposite side.  The other I just stroked his head and shh-ed.  Swaddle not needed - never used it for either of mine really and at 6 months I wouldn't be wanting to introduce it anyway from a safety point of view (rolling). 

You can definitely do this and we're happy to be here supporting :)
Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: Should I allow a longer nap for ew
« Last post by Haribo2012 on April 23, 2018, 19:08:26 pm »
Ooh ha ha itís kinda funny when they start the singing or delaying tactics. Hope she sleeps well for you, hopefully youíll just stay asleep and whatever time she wakes she will just chill x
General Sleep Issues / Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Last post by creations on April 23, 2018, 19:06:44 pm »
Hi there
Stopping by with some support and perhaps a few things to think about.

Now that your Lo is 6 months she may need a change in routine, although you are following a routine it may not be the best she needs to enable her to learn to self sooth and go to sleep with less help.  At this age many are on (or in the process of dropping down to) 2 naps rather than 3.
If you need help with routine please post a recent EASY, times that happened rather than what you aim for.

At 6 months most LOs still need a night feed so it is not necessarily a bad habit that Mummy is feeding her at night to settle, she is likely hungry.  BF babies may need night feeds for a good while yet (and often formula fed up to about 8 months), there isn't any point trying to stop all night feeds as you'll just end up awake longer in the night.

She rejected the swaddle months ago.
No need to swaddle to teach independent sleep, mine didn't have a swaddle after about 10 wks old, I only used one rarely in desperation to calm him through some bad phases of teething and reflux when he was thrashing so much I could barely keep hold!  In any case swaddles are not really suitable once a baby can roll which is around now.  So no swaddle is no problem.

I can probably count on two hands the times I've seen this baby fall asleep on her own, and every one of those was using PU/PD last time.
Try not to let this put you off.  What has happened in the past is not an indication of what is going to happen now.
Know your goal and how you are going to approach it, always supporting through the tricky times, never leaving her to cry alone and you will get there.

She sleeps on her back, so no Pat/Shush.
Most people don't pat the back any more because the guidance is for babies to sleep on their back. Some people roll LO to pat the back and roll onto back when they are asleep, this sounds awkward to me but people manage it. Others pat the tummy or hip or nappy area, obviously not hard on the tummy you don't want to hurt her or bring milk up, but nappies are quite padded, you can still provide the hypnotic soothing rhythm of the patting without it being on her back or too firm.
Another option is to adapt the patting to a rub or a rock. I see you are currently rocking to sleep so this could be an option for you as she is already accustomed to this soothing method.  Rocking can be weaned just like patting can, you start out like usual with whatever level of rocking sooths her (this is the wind down not the sleep) and then you reduce and reduce over days, always returning to a strong rock when needed and a less rock (or on/off start/stop rocking) as soon as she calms to gradually wean it until eventually you are hands off.
One way to begin this process is (rock as usual for a period for wind down) to switch to rocking with her laying horizontally in your arms if you don't already (ie if you currently rock with her upright over your shoulder).  If she fusses you go back a step, increase the rock, raise her a little, then back down to horizontal etc she'll get used to it.
Next is to reduce the rock so that when she nods off in arms you are motionless
Next is to put her into the cot and continue to rock in the cot - I did this with mine who couldnít be patted. A firm hand on his tummy/hip and a small movement of the hand produces a nice little rocking. You can do this for as long as needed in the cot and all the way to sleep if necessary. If she is very upset you PU and sooth in arms then PD and continue to rock in the cot with firm hand. If she is calm you reduce and reduce if she fusses you increase a bit and then reduce again.  This can help to avoid lots of PUs because she stays in the cot as much as possible.

If you are both consistent with the approach and use it for all naps and night sleep I think you ought to see improvement in a few days or a week.  it can be hard work and it can initially take longer, I think you know that, but with your support your LO is going to feel confident to fall asleep in her own bed.
Good luck for tomorrow :)
Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: Should I allow a longer nap for ew
« Last post by Conniesmummy on April 23, 2018, 18:56:15 pm »
She seemed wide awake so was gonna go fornusual bedtime after night garden. Then after a story with daddy she looked wasted so I quickly jumped to iplayer and stuck night garden in a bit earlier  ;D then in true toddler fashion she lit up like the Fourth of July in the bath with no encouragement. We had renditions of every song she knows and then practice swimming 🤦‍♀️
I held my breath and put her to bed just after 7 and she was asleep by about 20 past.
It must be a phase cos when we went away in March to Disneyland Paris, we had no ot issues at all and I was able to shift her bedtime later and earlier without a hitch. We even managed the daylight saving the weekend after we got back, with no problems. Itís these ew that rear their ugly head and mess everything up. Itís hard too as she rarely makes a noise when she wakes and I only know sheís woken early if I happen to be awake myself and check the monitor  ::)
Sleeping For Toddlers / Re: 12 month schedule trouble
« Last post by robinsegg on April 23, 2018, 18:45:49 pm »
Down to 1 two hour nap a day.  Every second or third night he has a long NW.   Last night from 1030-1245.  What causes these?
General Sleep Issues / Re: Swaddle nightmare 16 week old.
« Last post by creations on April 23, 2018, 18:40:28 pm »
I used shush/pat initially but then realised my DS didn't get on well with patting (may have aggravated his silent reflux which I didn't know he had at the time) so switched to a shush/rub and also used rocking in arms (following Harvey Karps 5s method, there are videos on-line the rocking is small in most cases almost like a little vibration, like being in a car - and also following Tracy's BW advice that if you are going to rock in arms standing up then rock forward and backward rather than side to side), when I put him down I used rocking in the cot by using a firm hand and creating a little rocking or vibration (not shaking).  I reduced the rocking/firm hand in the same way as you reduce patting. If you feel that might be helpful for your LO go ahead, I know others have used rocking too - the key is to remember your goal is to use it to wind down and sooth when needed but not get locked into holding in arms rocking for a full nap unless you are purposely doing so for a reason (APOP accidental parenting on purpose).

I introduced a lovey the day he was born, a muslin square on my shoulder every time I held him. Used it to wipe his face at feeds and burping, always held one between us or near his face so he knew it was there during every cuddle, every wind down for sleep etc etc. He attached well that way because he associated it with me.  In the early days I did not leave it with him unattended in a cot (SIDS risk prior to 6 months) but when he started using it to self settle I let him have it to fall asleep, I left the room and went back in 3 mins later to remove it.  Over time I observed his ability to control it and at around 6 months I felt he was safe to have one in his bed for naps and nights. He also used 2 as bibs when eating solids (one around upper body/neck and one on his lap for dropped food) and every time he had a bump or upset I always held a muslin on me during the cuddles, I wiped his teething dribbles with one, I froze a damp one for him to chew when he was teething too.  Basically we constantly had a muslin with us awake or asleep (I had a zillion of the things so they were always clean and he attached to the clean smell too).
4 months is not too old to try to introduce a lovey of your choice such as a muslin.  Older babies will choose their own lovey but he is still quite little. I think if you did similar to what I've described, using that item *all the time* as though it is filled with powerful soothing magic then it will power up with comfort until eventually it offers comfort without you being there (or additional comfort).  For example if my DS has a bad fall now I might get to him in a flash but my cuddles are not enough, he needs the muslin too, it has that much power!  Some people keep a lovey item in their own clothes and sleep with it for a few night before introducing it to LO so that the smell of Mummy adds comfort but like I said I never did that, he hooked on the clean laundry smell which suits me just fine :)

I'm wondering weather I should transition him into cot as I would have had the moses basket for the next couple of weeks to familiarise with new surroundings and then approach again.
Do you mean put the basket in the cot?  That's a good way to make the move as LO has a chance to get used to the change of view from their sleeping position but then have the safety of the known environment with the basket.

We had an a time of just over 2 hrs which was giving decent naps.  Should I reduce when trying to learn self settling.?
I wouldn't reduce the A time because it's really hard to fall asleep unless tired enough, you don't want to set of an UT nap as LO will find it hard to sleep. I'd suggest a good wind down and then put awake but help him to get to sleep if needed, then help less as he learns to self sooth. For this though you will need to find a comfortable position for yourself so you are able to be hands on without causing you too much strain or pain.

hope that helps
Feeding Solid Food / Re: 8mp, How much should she be eating?
« Last post by creations on April 23, 2018, 17:54:06 pm »
How did it go with the straw?

It doesn't sound like she's having a large portion of solids at any meal, often they eat more in the earlier hours, breakfast and early lunch, which is why I was asking, but perhaps the smaller portions are fine for her. Is she maintaining and gaining weight okay?  Weeing and pooing okay?  And generally healthy?

It could still be that she just hasn't had that that big increase in interest yet and really so long as she gets her milk there shouldn't be anything to worry about, the solids will pick up. I can understand your reluctance to have the additional night feeds but perhaps this is unavoidable now that you are back at work until she is a bit older and the solids increases?
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