Going Backwards, help!

[ward1543]

My DD has just turned 11weeks today and is exclusively breastfed. At 7weeks old we began to put her in her cot to sleep at 7pm every night. I would then DF at 1030pm and she would wake at 3-4am for a feed. At 9 weeks she began to sleep through going to bed at 7pm, DF at 1030pm and waking at 6-730am. However, over the past few nights, she has been waking at 9pm and I have fed her. Then I have DF at 11pm but she has woken 530am for another feed.
During the day she tends to feed every two hours, and naps very little (despite us persevering with trying shh/pat), but tonight I noticed that she came to the end of her feed and was still on the fore milk and not the hind milk as usual (I tend to check after every feed), but she refused to feed any more. She is a very uncontent baby during the day and seems to cry unless being held or fed. I have a 2year old who was never like this and to be honest I'm getting exhausted.
Is it a temporary blip or is this set to continue? I am very close to using formula as I'm so drained but just can't bring myself to do it! It's really frustrating as I know she can sleep through the night now!Please help!

[Layla]

Hi & welcome

Sounds like she's snacking during the day rather than taking full feeds..... at 11weeks you might have to start stretching her feeds until its close to 3hrs. Can you please post your routine for us.

Layla

[momofclaire]

Hi,
I also wanted to add that although babies can sleep through they will go through spurts where they can't, due to growth or something else.  At that age it is normal to have 2 overnight feeds. 

If you need specific help with regard to breastfeeding please check out our bf forum as the girls there are experts. 
I also agree with Layla.

[ward1543]

Thanks for your words of help. I have tried stretching her to 3 hourly feeds but she just screams the house down. Last night was even worse, with her waking up at 9pm, DF at 1030pm, awake at 230pm, feed at 3am and then again at 6am and she was fully awake by 730am. I appreciate that most BF babies aren't quite so quick to sleep through the night, but if she had never done it then I probably wouldn't be frustrated but I know she can go through the night!
As for routine, well it tends to be a 10-15min feed followed by 10-20 mins activity followed by 45min nap, then we have to hold her for a further 45 mins or so until she's ready for a feed otherwise she just continually cries. I shall also post on the breadtfeeding board and see if they have any suggestions.
Thanks for your help!

[Bryony]

Hmmm - I'm wondering if the NW might be more to do with the 45 minute naps and overtiredness rather than hunger. Did the NWs get worse around the time of the 45 minute naps starting?  If you could post a more detailed routine maybe someone can have a look. How much daytime sleep is your LO getting?  What are her A times betwen end of one nap and beginning of the next? have you tried extending naps (yes very difficult with a 2 year old I know...). It may be that daytime A times need increasing or decreasing.

I am sure it's temporary - in answer to your first question - we just need to work out what the problem is... 

Bryony

[ward1543]

funnily enough, the nw began as we started to try to increase her naps. Today we aplmed our 2 yr old off to nanny's and have had a quieter less stimulating day with DD. I have also extended her feeds to 3 hrs, and she has appeared more content and has sleep more than on previous days. Prior to this, she would have a routine as follows:
E - 10-15mins
A - 10-20 mins
Sleep for 45 mins max then I would have to hold her for following 45 mins until the next feed.
However today seems to have been a little better and she managed a 1.5hrs sleep this afternoon (all beit in the pushchair and car - as we pulled onto the drive she began to fall asleep as I was about to get her out, and so I left her in the car. She woke up after 45 mins but managed to get herself back to sleep with no fuss and I ended up waking her up for a feed at 5pm.
Tonight, I have put her down at 7pm as usual and after 5 mins of fuss she fell asleep and we haven't heard  a peep from her since. I'm just about to go to do the DF which she hasn't made the past few nights having woken before the DF, so fingers crossed we could be back on track, but I don't want to count our chickens!

[Bryony]

Glad to hear that today has gone better!  How was your night? 

funnily enough, the nw began as we started to try to increase her naps.

Hmm, well that blows my theory!! 

However I do still wonder if a few routine tweaks might help.  Am I right in thinking your daughter is only awake for half an hour or so in between naps (15 mins feeding then 10-20  mins activity?)  This seems very short for 11 weeks old - think the average A time (ie in total including the feed) is about 1 hr 15 mins at that age. If you slowly extended A time you might find that naps improve. Some people find that playing with A times makes the 45 minute monster go away - others find he's there to stay  .  If you do decide to try and increase A times I would do it slowly to give her chance to get used to it - 5 mins or so every few days and keep the A time fairly low key. Improving naps might then help her extend to 3hrly feedings, take in more milk during the day, get more tired in between naps and sleep better at night... 

How many naps a day is she getting, and how much daytime sleep in total?  What do you do if she wakes at 45 mins - how long is she awake until the start of the next nap?

Sorry to go on about naps but I do wonder if this is affecting her nights... 

Bryony

[ward1543]

Last night was an improvement - she went down at 7pm, had DF at 11pm then woke at 510am followed by further sleep until 7am. It's still a little way off from what we were doing, but much better than the previous few nights.
Today she had the following routine:
E - 830am
A - 0845-920
S - 0920-1005 followed by a wake then ssh/pat in my arms she went back down in the cot until 1115am (this is the longest nap time that she's had in a long time)
E - 1115-1130
A - 1130-1230
S - 1245 - 115 (couldn't get her back down as we were at family and too much disturbance)
E - 215pm
A - 230 - 315pm
S - 315-4pm ( Fell asleep in pushchair as were out walking) followed by a further nap at 455-530pm
E - 530
A - 545-645pm (bath at 630pm)
E - 645pm
S - 7pm
I am having trouble with the naps, and just as we start to get somewhere it's disturbed by having to go out or take my other daughter somewhere, it's a real pain. However, this time last week she was averaging between 25-60mins a day nap so we have come great guns in a week. I hope to desperately try to work on more naps in the cot this week, but it is tricky with every day demands, but I suppose if you don't put the effort in you don't get the results out!
When she awakes after 45 mins, does it matter if I ssh/pat in my arms and then put her back down once semi-asleep as if I ssh/pat in the cot at this stage she refuses to co-operate. I tend to ssh/pat at the beginning of the nap and then when the seven-mile-stare arrives I put her in the cot and further pat her until she falls asleep, but she refuses this method after the 45mins.
I know that most babies differ, but how long on average is it anticipated before the babies learn to get past the first 20min jolts and sleep for longer than 45 mins on their own? I appreciate these questions should maybe go on the nap board, but since I'm posting here thought I might ask your opinion first!

Sarah

[Bryony]

II am so glad last night was better! I know what you mean about knowing they can do it - but I think it does sometimes go like that. Katie has phases of sleeping through the night and phases of NWs (usually because I need to tweak her routine  )

Based on the routine you posted today, it also looks like things are going much better with the feeds - great stuff!

In terms of the naps - I would imagine she's still a bit low on daytime sleep as a result of the 45-ers. But it sounds like you have come such a long way since last week –well done!  When Katie was that age she usually managed 1.5 hrs in the morning, then we had a lunchtime nap in 2 x 45 min bits, then 45 mins in the afternoon then another 45 mins later in the afternoon…  Personally, I would also recommend having the shortest A time in between the last catnap and bed – the main aim is to make sure you don’t have an OT LO at bedtime.  But others might have different ideas for you to consider.

In terms of the 45 minute naps - some people find that they resolve if you tweak A times (sometimes more, sometimes less), others find they get better at around 4 months when they go to 4-hourly EASY. Others find they get better around 6 months. Others are still persistent 45-ers even after that (my Katie included  )  However I would say that it gets to be much less of an issue at around 6 months when you go down to 2 naps per day - then if either of them end up as a 45-er you can just add in a catnap late afternoon.   Until then it's a matter of trying to extend naps or pack in more 45-ers so that you don't end up with an OT LO by the end of the day...

HTH!  Let us know how you get on tonight

Bryony

[ward1543]

Thanks for your support Bryony, it really helps! Looking back with rose tinted glasses my elder daughter seemed so easy, and I cannot recall having any issues with naps or if there was, it was that she slept too much, even now aged 2 she has a 13hr sleep at night and a 2 hr nap in the afternoon - if only this could be the case with little Darcie! Oh well, there's time yet! Freya my eldest was formula fed and I wonder if that would have made a difference to naps and contentment as Darcie is breastfed. Who knows?
I'm taking Darcie to be weighed tomorrow, so if she's put on a good weight, then I can account some of the recent hiccup to a growth spurt, but I think you hit the nail on the head with the overtiredness, thanks! Will let you know how tonight goes!
Sarah

[Bryony]

Good luck for tonight 

Darcie is such a pretty name BTW!

Bryony

[ward1543]

Had a better night again with going down at 7pm, DF at 1030pm. Then she woke up at 415am which I was really surprised at as she had taken a really good feed at DF. I listened to her cry and gave it 5-10mins trying to identify if it was hunger. The cry sounded more of a tired cry and so I didn't go in. Within 10 minutes of her first cry she had stopped and gone back to sleep. She then went through until 5.55am. I fed her then and she had a really good feed. She then went down again and at 845am I went into her room not having heard from her since the 5.55am feed and she was laid awake staring at her mobile (she's never normally that content in a morning!).
I now believe that the NW are not hunger as she went back to sleep so quickly after her episode at 4.15am, but it's a mystery why she's waking up after all that time asleep!
Sarah

[Bryony]

Wow, that's FANTASTIC!!  Often LOs wake up in the night just as we do - esp if a bit OT - as long as she can get herself back to sleep that's wonderful...

I am sure you will get blips along the way but I hope that this is the start of much better nights for you

Bx