5 mo. started waking between 9 and 12--unusual?!

[hannahbanana]

I'm not sure what these NW signal.  My DD has been waking anywhere between 9 and 12 for the last several nights.  I'm confused, because when we had our last GS, she'd sleep from 6:30 until about 1-3:30, and then again from 3:30-5:00.  When we switched to 4 hr. EASY, it dropped down to 1 NW around 3:30-4:30.  This is a different pattern.  For example, she woke last night at 12:00 a.m. and then at 5:15 a.m., where I let her squeal and babble until 6:15 and fed at 6:30.

What do you think?  Should I feed more frequently during the day?  She feed pretty good when she wakes at this time.  Now we feed at 6:30/10:30/2:30/5:45 (6:30 bedtime).

Oh, and yes, she naps stink!  But they always have (30-45 minutes).

[Bryony]

Hi there

My LO did this at that age too...    we didn't really work out what it was to be honest, I just fed her when she woke and called it our dream feed and then went to bed   They stopped when I moved the DF earlier so that I pre-empted her waking...

Do you do a dream feed?  You would expect to have at least one night feeding (including a DF) at her age.

What is your current daytime routine?

Bryony

[hannahbanana]

we're out of sorts, because she's been waking really early--today was 5:15!  We feed approx. 6:30/10:30/2:30/5:45 (6:30 bedtime).  I try to put her down for naps within 1.5 hrs. of waking, whenever that is.  Today, her first nap was at 7:00, because she'd been awake since 5:15; she only slept 40 minutes...putting our next nap at 9:30...she slept for 30 minutes.  It's currently 2 p.m. for us, and she just went down for nap #4!  But this has been our life.  Oh, we used to have 45 minuters, but now we're at 30!  It's very tiring.

I used to DF.  I think I will start it again, this time at 9:00 p.m. (2.5 hrs. after going to bed).  I didn't like the DF 1.) because I had to stay up for it, 2.) she might wake, keeping me up further.  But, given our current situation, I'm going to give it a go.

[Bryony]

OK so I think your naps may not be helping...  I know 1.5 hrs is the right kind of A time for her age - but after a 45 min nap you would want to decrease this a bit as a 45 min nap is not enough to really catch up on sleep.  So I am wondering if she is getting overtired - 30 min naps are usually a sign of being overtired and/or overstimulated.

As a parent of a 45 minute napper I do know what a pain they are!      Have you tried extending naps at all?  Have you tried slowly extendng the A time before the first nap to see if a longer A time helps?  If you aren't able to extend naps then you have to pack more of them in to avoid overtiredness - eg 5 a day if you can.  And even if all else fails you need a catnap quite soon before bedtime - with an A time of about 1-1.25hrs in between last catnap and bedtime. 

What is she doing when she wakes in the night? Grizzling?  Cross?

And yes it might be worth doing a DF if you think hunger might be an issue. You could do it quite early eg 9:30pm or 10pm if you want to go to bed afterwards?

Bryony

[hannahbanana]

I did a DF last night at 9:00 and she didn't wake again until 4:30!  Only she woke up again at 5:40!  I left her in her crib until 7:15; I could hear her cries/squeals on the monitor and she wasn't in distress.  She was quiet for periods of time, and I assume she went back to sleep for some of that time--I did!

BUT...

I put her down for her first nap at 8:45 or so, about 1.5 hrs. after officially "waking."  The result: 20 min. nap!  OVERTIRED!!!  Well, yes, of course, she'd been up since 5:45!!!

That set the tone for our naps today--crap!  There were 4 of them, but they were only 20-30 minutes    I tried to extend the last one (which was probably a mistake, since she was soooo OT by then), and it led to 45 minutes of sobbing and soothing.  She finally got a hold of herself, but didn't got to sleep.  I left the room at 5:15, and she started to call out again; it was too late for a nap anyway, so I got her up--thankfully, she was not in a sour mood, as she'd finally regained her composure.

I have tried to extend her naps, but I got burnt out.  For the most part, it doesn't work (or I give up before it does).  I guess my heart's not in it.  I don't know if it will make a difference.  I just keep thinking/hoping that she will all of a sudden be developmentally ready and start sleeping more.  (I know this is more for the naps boards, but since we're talking about it...)  You say that your LO is a 45 minute napper?  Does she cry upon waking?  How do you know if 45 is enough?

I have also feed her more frequently today (2:45-3:15 intervals), because these weird waking might be a GS.  I will do so for another day or so, if tonight shows improvement.  I know FOOD is at the root of this.

[Bryony]

Oh I am so sorry you had such a day - HUGS!  I know what those days are like - we hit a patch like that at around 5 months.   But sounds like the night before was pretty good, apart from the early start!

As you say it sounded like she was OT and didn't manage to catch up on it all day.  I hope that the night was not too bad. And today is another day!

In terms of the naps - I gave up trying to extend naps when Katie was about 5 months old - I agree it's really draining and I'd been doing it since she was 7 weeks old (which is when our 45-ers started), it was getting to be less and less successful, and like you I was burnt out. So after that we just went for fiddling with A times and packing in more naps to try and avoid OT. In answer to your Q, when She was younger she'd wake up screaming and sobbing after 45 mins, then at around 5 months she started waking up happy but get grizzly very soon after as she'd not really had enough sleep, and the next nap would be in danger of being 30 mins. Not sure if that's any help to you     There's a short nappers support thread on the Naps board - not sure if you've been over there at all - it saved my sanity at times.

If it is a growth spurt and hunger related you would expect it only to last a few days - so worth trying to get more food in as you are doing to see if it helps (although I wouldn't feed too often as you dont' want to end up with her snacking rather than taking in a whole tummy-full).

Big hugs - and hoping you have a better day today 

Bryony x

[hannahbanana]

Thanks.  I've been to the short-nappers board.  Got some good advice that i tried today.  I went in at 25 minutes, just as she was stirring and put pressure on her shoulder and hip (she's a side-sleeper) and kept the pressure on until 50 minutes into her sleep cycle--she didn't wake until 1:20!!!  That really saved the morning

[Bryony]

Excellent!!!  Yes that's one way of extending naps - we used that for months. Really glad it worked for you too!!

   

[hannahbanana]

Yeah, w2s didn't seem to affect her and once she's away there's a slim chance that she'll give in to sleep again.  Does you LO sleep well at night?  Do you think it's a trend, that if you do well at night you have trouble with naps?  (not counting those babes that are just great sleepers all-around)

[Bryony]

W2S never worked for us either.... in answer to your Q, my LO sleeps well at night if I can get enough sleep into her during the day - otherwise we get lots of NWs... 

Sounds like you did great with extending the nap - I would keep this up for a while and see how it goes - good luck and hugs!

Bryony

[hannahbanana]

Well, I tried twice today, and we only made it to 45 minutes once, 35 mins. the other.  Just I was releasing pressure, a big jolt came.  I don't quite understand the physiology of the intervention--does she continue that 45 minute cycle, even though she sort of wakes/stirs/calls out and resettles?  I'm trying to understand what the big jolt meant.

Anyway, we had 4 naps, totally about 2 1/2 hrs. sleep.  We'll see how that affects our night.  Our NW could be sleep related--or food....

The good thing is that she's getting really good at going to sleep 90% on her own.  She, if we have to have 4 naps a day, at least I'm not shush/patting my life away!

[Bryony]

That's great that she's going to sleep on her own - that's so important and definitely something you want to celebrate!

In terms of the pressure through the nap cycles - the idea is to help them through the period when they come into a light sleep cycle, and then the jolts as they go into the next sleep cycle. For most LOs this happens at 10 mins and 20 mins into the next sleep cycle.  I used to go in at 30 mins into the nap and stay until she was past the 20 mins jolts and into the next sleep cycle - so about 65 mins into the nap.  The ladies on the nap boards may be better able to help you with this and with other options for extending.  And if this fails - try and fit in an extra nap or two.

Bryony