5 1/2 month old multiple NW

[ennelson78]

My ds is 5 1/2 months old and still has multiple NW.  I admit, I've fallen into accidental parenting on more than one occasion and have just given in and BF him when he cries.  He's on the EASY plan.  His day usually looks like this:

7am wake and BF
8am solid food
9am sleep
11am BF
12pm solid food
1 pm sleep
2 or 3 pm BF
4:30 solid food
The evening time gets a little fuzzy.  I try not to let him take another nap becuase I feel like it's too much sleep and might keep him up later than I want him to, but sometimes he gets so cranky that I give him a short cap nap right after that last feeding of solid food for only 1 hour. 
7pm bottle and bed
10:30 DF

The tricky part for me is that I live in a two bedroom house and I need to get my lo in the same room as my 2 year old.  My lo is such a light sleeper that I can't have him in my bedroom (we both wake up every hour!) so when I feed him at 10:30 I move him from my bed to his port-a-crib in the family room.  From there he usually sleeps until 3am, when I BF him, 5:30 when I BF him, and then he wakes up for the day at 7am. 

I've tried using PU/PD with him and it just goes on and on and on until I BF him.  I've let him cio a couple of times in the middle of the night, but then he still screams for and hour to and hour and half and sometimes wakes up my toddler.   

I'm thinking of letting him sleep in my room (while my husband and I take the couches for a little while) so I can get him to stop waking up at 10:30 for a DF.  It's completely out of habit now.  But I'm not sure how slowly or quickly I should take it.  Should I just cut out all feedings during the night or should I cut one out at a time?  How am I ever going to get my two kids in the same room, too?  Help!

[Bryony]

Hello and welcome to the boards 

I think you have a few things going on - as you say, there is prpobably some AP going on if he's used to being BF back to sleep. I also wonder if your routine might need a tweak

A few questions:

- how long are his naps?
- how much solid food is he having?  He is very young to be on three meals a day so you want to make sure he is not filling up on solids rather than milk - milk is far more important at his age.
- do you think he is hungry at night, or does he just want to suck for comfort to go back to sleep (I know it's not always easy to tell...)
- how does he get to sleep for night times and nap times - can he get to sleep on his own or does he need your help?
- finally what is he doing when he wakes in the night - is he screaming, or chatting, or sobbing, or grizzling...?

Sorry about all the questions - but will help us to work out what's going on

Please don't leave him to CIO - we can come up with a better plan

Bryony

[ennelson78]

Hi, thanks for getting back to me!  I was thinking that he might be having too much solid food, but I wasn't sure.  HIs morning solid food is rice cereal mixed with formula, in the afternoon he gets one serving of fruit and in the evening he gets ine serving of veggies.

His morning nap is very consistent, usually 1.5 to 2 hours long.  His afternoon nap varies, usually anywhere for 1 to 2 hours.

I don't think he is hungry at night, I think I'm just a prop.  Last night I didn't feed him at all between 10:30 and 6am.  He woke up at 3am and I used PU/PD but he screamed for an hour and a half before falling back to sleep. I nursed him and 6am and he woke up for the day at 7:15.

He is really good at falling asleep on his own.  Both for naps and night, we swaddle him and lay him on our bed.  He usually falls asleep right away.  Sometimes he'll cry, and I'll go in and give him a pacifier and then he falls asleep.  I never have to rock him or nurse him to sleep... well, except in the middle of the night. 

When he wakes at night, sometimes he's just babbling, and I don't go in.  The only time I go in if he hes full blown screaming.  What's grizzling?

Okay, I hope that helps and we can come up with some sort of plan, becuase mine just isn't working!  Thanks!

[Bryony]

Hi there

Well yes he may be getting a bit too much in the way of solids for his age - but if you really don't think he's hungry at night then that's probably not the main issue.

That's great that he can fall asleep on his own - that's so important!  Well done Jacob 

I think he still needs that catnap - just 30-40 mins - to get him through till bedtime without being overtired. Most don't drop it until about 8 months - you need to be able to stay awake for an A time of 3hrs before you can drop it.  And I think at his age he will be really OT on 3-4hrs A time which is what he must be getting before bed.  Say he wakes from his PM nap at 2:30pm, he could have a catnap at 4:30pm - 5:15pm then bed at 7pm at the latest.  OT NWs are horrible, it's hard to get an OT LO back to sleep. 

- Also well done on doing PU/PD successfully last night!  The main thing with PU/PD is to be consistent - you have to stick at it and not then give in after an hour and BF!  Have a look at the PU/PD forum if you want some help with this - there is a lot of useful info about how to go about it.

Yuo say you lay him on your bed to go to sleep - does he sleep in your bed or do you transfer him to his own cot?  If he sleeps in a cot then he really needs to go to sleep in the cot otherwise he won't know where he is when he wakes up.

Grizzling - oh I wonder if this is just a UK word?!  It's kind of low grade crying - kind of nnhhh like complaining a bit, rather than a full-on waaa waaa.  Hard to explain!

And I agree with the not going in if he's babbling 

So - my suggestion would be to put in that catnap!

Bryony

[ennelson78]

I do put him to sleep on my bed but then I move him to his crib (which is in the family room) when I give him his DF at 10:30. I need to stop giving him his DF though so that he can start sharing a room with his brother.  I'm thinking of putting his crib in my room temporarily while my husband and I take the couches... just until he is able to sleep a good nights sleep.  Is it crazy for me to expect that he can go from 7pm to 6am without a feed?

Also, when I'm using PU/PD to get him to go back to sleep in the middle of the night, what do I do if he seems to be falling asleep, so I lay him down and he automatically starts crying again?  How long do I let him cry before I pick him up again?  Right away?  Give him a few minutes?

[Bryony]

I thnk he is too young to go all night without a feed! Most people don't drop the DF until around 7 months. Now a small number of babies do manage it - and maybe yours is one of them, so you could give it a try - but he is quite likely to wake up in the night hungry...

In terms of the falling asleep on your bed - what about for naps?  Does he fall asleep in his crib then?  I am just thinking that if he is used to falling asleep on your bed and wakes up in the night in his crib it may feel strange and he might not be able to get back to sleep.  Presumably he is not rolling yet?  Once he starts rolling you will not want to let him sleep on your bed!

What's a family room?  Is that your living room?  Sorry, I am not familiar with that term

With the PU/PD, you should not be holding him so long that he is falling alseep in your arms - the idea is that you hold him only enough to reassure him that you are there.  So it sounds to me as if you are holding him too long.  However I am not an expert on PU/PD - you might want to have a look over on the PU/PD board for some advice.

What did you decide about the catnap?

Bryony

[ennelson78]

So here's what happened last night.  I hadn't heard from you yet so I decided that if he didn't wake up, I wasn't going to give him his DF.  We gave him a catnap at 4:30 for 45 minutes and I think that made a HUGE difference.  He slept from 7pm until 2:30am without waking up!  When he did wake up at 2:30 I used PU/PD for 30 minutes and he went back to sleep.  He wasn't screaming like he normally does, mostly the mantra cry, so I'm pretty sure he wasn't hungry.  Then he didn't wake up again until 6:30am!  Yay!    I think I'm on my way to a full nights sleep!  Thanks so much for your help!  I also posted on the PU/PD board about when to pick up again, and they really helped me out over there too.

Oh, a family room is like a living room.  WE have both.  Out living room is the "formal" sitting room and the family room is where we spend most if the time, toys and TV are in there. 

[Bryony]

wow great stuff!  You often get some regression when you change something - didn't want you to get discouraged if you had a bad night in a few days time....  but be consistent and you will get there!

 

[ennelson78]

I think we're experiencing the regression part!     The last two nights have not been fun. 

I decided that he was probably getting too much solids during the day and have brought him back down to just two meals of solids (breakfast and lunch) then he has a bottle of formula for dinner and I nurse him about an hour before bedtime.  He's been waking up on his own for a DF so I've been giving him 6 more oz. of formula then. 

Well, the last two nights he's woken up around 2:30am.  I've been going in and doing PU/PD.  The first bad night it would take just one time of PU/PD and he was back to sleep.  He woke up every half hour until 5am!  Then I nursed him and he slept until 7:30.  Last night he woke up around 2:30 and I did PU/PD for an hour and a half!  I was so tired, that my husband took over and I'm pretty sure he just rocked him to sleep.  I feel like I can't do this alone but he doesn't understand why we would do PU/PD for an hour and a half when we could just rock him to sleepin 15 minutes.  I've explained the logic behind it, but at 4 in the morning all logic goes out the window! 

So, is this normal?  Should I keep doing what I'm doing, or should I do something different?  Also, I've been keeping him on our bedroom all night the last few nights thinking that he might feel more secure staying in one place.  Do you think that really matters?  We have a crib for him in the family room.  Should I move him out there when he wakes up for his DF?  (I only ask because we've been sleeping on the couches... if I'm in the same room as him I wake up to every squeak and squirm.)

[Bryony]

Oh, hugs!!! that is no fun.  But you have come such a long way - try not to let it feel like too much of a step back!   

You say he is waking on his own for the DF - what time does he wake, and do you think it's hunger?  The idea of the DF is that you don't wake them     Although my LO had a phase of waking before the DF and I did the same as you - fed her while she was awake and put her back down to sleep, and hoped that she didn't get a feed to sleep association!

I am wondering if he's confused becuase in the evening you feed him (DF), then in the night you don't?  But I am no expert on PU/PD and I would suggest you post on the PU/PD board for some advice on this one - I think you said you had already had some help over there - sorry not to be able to help myself   

In terms of where he is sleeping - in general I would say go with whatever the long term plan is - but I know for you this is with your 2 year old, which doesn't sound like a good plan while you are working on his NWs.  I would do whatever works best for you and your DH and then stick to it so that he has some consistency.  I can't sleep in the same room as my LO either 

As for DH - has he read the book?  Could you get him to read the relevant chapter?  As you say it is SO hard at 4am - but if you are both on the same page in the daylight it makes things a bit easier    

Bryony

[momofclaire]

Hi,
Bryony asked me to stop by so here I am.    I am sorry that you are having a rough time right now.  PU/PD can be tough on everyone.  As a rule I try to tell moms, and dads, that if you can't be 100% consistant that it isn't worth it. I really understand the middle of the night do whatever you have to thing but when sleep training it is important to remember that everything you are doing is an effort to teach the baby how to self soothe. If you cave and give into AP the baby only learns that he now has to cry/fight/stay awake longer to get you to do what he wants.  So in giving in you actually make your job harder.  Does that make sense?  It seems that he does better without the df, is that right?  I would skip it.  It starts to disturb sleep around 7 months so since you are dealing with issues now I would just drop it.  Instead I would do some clustering in the evening. I would also skip the solid food for dinner and give milk instead.  Milk has more staying power as it has more calories than solids. 

I would try to pick a place for him to sleep and stay with it.  Babies do better when they know what to expect.  If you need specific help with how to do pu/pd please ask or post in that forum, ok?  I hope that helps a little.
Myia

[Bryony]

Thanks Myia!

Bryony

[momofclaire]

How are things going?

[ennelson78]

Things are going better.  Thanksgiving threw us for a loop becuase we had 3 days of festivities so naps were a little off.  Now we're back into our routine.  I'm still giving him his DF at 10:30 when I move him out of our room, and he's still waking up at 3am, but he is easily soothed and goes right back to sleep.  BUT, now he's waking up between 4:45 and 5:15 becuase he's hungry, so I feed him, and then he won't go back to sleep.  How can I get him to sleep at least another hour or two?  He starts out just happy in his crib, talking away.  But after a few minutes he starts crying.  What should I do?