How much is enough?

[rozza]

Hi,

About 3 or 4 weeks ago I started introducing solids, my lo was 4.5 months which I know is still young but he is a big lad and was showing all the signs.  I'm pleased we did as he is loving his food, his sleep has improved and I've been careful to introduce different foods and additional meals, verrrry slowly. 

My question is about how much I should be feeding him? He's on 3 solid meals a day now between each milk feed and at each one, I give him about 4 or 5 teaspoons of mush which he gobbles up.  He empties both boobs at each milk feed (7 a.m, 11a.m, 3p.m) and when I give him his formula feeds he finishes 9 fl oz around bedtime (5 before bath and 4 after) and then about 6 fl oz at dream feed).

Anyhow, I wondered should I keep upping his solid feeds if he is finishing them so readily or try and increase my milk supply?  Am paranoid because all the literature says to make sure that you don’t give so much solids that milk intake is cut back and with breastfeeding I can never REALLY tell how much he's had, just if he's spent longer or less than usual?

Any advice much appreciated -

[zed]

I personally think that it is OK to start on solids this early but I wouldn't increase the amounts anymore than you have.  I too had introduced solids to both of my boys, they too needed it sooner then the six month recommendation (I only gave my boys a max of 3-4 tsp. once and rarely twice a day until they were 6 months old).  I know that BM is best at this age and LO's tummy's aren't necessarily ready to digest a huge amount of solid food.  I believe that to much solid food can really upset their digestion and cause constipation, gas, bloating, allergies, and other sore tummy troubles. 

It sounds like your LO is doing really well with the way things are now, why mess with it?

[momirem]

Our pediatrician recommended that we start introducing solids at 4 mo in small amounts. We have started with yogurt and fruit juice. The first 15 days, we gave DD 2 oz of both (didn't take all at first). After that, we increased the yogurt up to 4 oz. At 5 mo, we started to give 1 tea spoon of yolk, some cheese and bread at breakfast. We increased the yolk by 1 tea spoon each day, until DD eat all of it. At 6 mo, we added soups to her diet. First 10 days, we gave veggie soup (cut the veggies in small pieces, boil, smash with a folk - we were advised not to use blender or any mechanical smasher - and add 1 tea spoon of olive oil); the next 10 days we added boiled rice, but don't smashed it; and finally the next 10 days we put small meat or chicken pieces in the soup. At 7 mo, we gave all that we eat to DD. The amount depends on the food, but it is generally 2 to 6 table spoon per meal. I am still breastfeeding after solids, only if she eats her food. If not, we wait until the next feed.

This worked great for us. DD is 8.5 mo now and eats everything. Just don't forget that breastmilk stays the main food until the end of 6 months. And sometimes it takes 10 days until your LO loves a new taste. And don't force your LO to eat more that she wants. Hope this helps.

[Freya'sMum]

I would agree with mum 2 boo bear, if it ain't broke don't fix it

Momirem, I fear it is perhaps too late for your lo, but generally here at bw we advocate breastmilk or formula being the main source of nutrition until 12 months, with solid foods being introduced for exploration and experimentation only, not as food (milk is food) but as an Activity. This ensures that babies continue to have their pre-solids quantity of babymilk until at least 9/10 months, with the solid food quantity gradually increasing to match and then overtake it.

We also advocate milk feeding first (the Eat in EASY), then offering solids (the Activity in EASY), and wouldn't recommend withholding milk if a lo didn't finish his solid foods because it is the main source of nutrition, and don't recommend that solid foods replace milkfeeds, rather supplement them!

Although Tracy doesn't specify this explicitly in the bw books, the Eat Mod Team encourage people to follow the guidance of the latest research/evidence, and so the above is based on what is currently considered to be the best option for babies' healthy growth and development

Ax

[lovedtodeath]

Okay...this is contrary to Tracy's belief but sometimes breasts only produce 2-3 oz at a time and therefore babies need to nurse more often.milk production "Moms with large or small storage capacities can produce plenty of milk for baby. A mother with a larger milk storage capacity may be able to go longer between feedings without impacting milk supply and baby's growth. A mother with a smaller storage capacity, however, will need to nurse baby more often to satisfy baby’s appetite and maintain milk supply "

baby's main source of nutrition is milk for at least 10 months. solid food schedules

These sites are based on solid research. HTH

[zed]

Lovetodeath,

This is an awesome page!  (solid food schedules)  This is almost exactly what I did with both of my boys.  It is great to see it all laid out so clearly.  The only difference is that I started with cereal at 4 months but I only offered 1 tsp at first then at 5 months 2 tsp and finally at six months 1 tbs.  From six months on I basically did what that page recommends.

Also the other site you provided, (milk production) I totally agree with what it is saying too.  I was one of those Moms who had to feed my boys every 2 hours.  I don't think the reason was quantity however, my boys both got very large feedings, (I had them weighted they were eating more than a typical bottle fed baby).  My milk was also very rich, (my boys doubled their birth weight at or shortly after 4 months).  For me the reason was simply b/c my kids like me have very fast metabolisms.  I still to this day eat every 2 hours all day, every day and would be considered a lean person.

Thank you for posting these sites!

[lovedtodeath]

No problem I refer to that one often. Solids have me second guessing everything.

Here is another good site for mums to 4 month olds wakeful 4 months

[zed]

I absolutely agree with this last page as well.  Once again, I didn't worry about night wakings at this age.  It wasn't until my second was about 9 months that I started to really say NO MORE NIGHT WAKINGS.  Once I decided on a plan and stuck with it for a few days everything was pretty much straightened out. 

I appreciate your willingness to post other approaches on this site.  I love Tracy's routine ideas and I think they are essential for sanity.  However, sometimes I think that posters on here take it to be so black and white that they forget to think for themselves and use some common sense.  Thank you again for yet another reference.

[lovedtodeath]

I appreciate your willingness to post other approaches on this site.  I love Tracy's routine ideas and I think they are essential for sanity.  However, sometimes I think that posters on here take it to be so black and white that they forget to think for themselves and use some common sense.  Thank you again for yet another reference.

I totally agree. In the book, Tracy says to be flexible and listen to your LO within your routine, but most posts I see seem to be rigid and also lack any cluster feeds. We have been off schedule due to school starting (driving to and from interferred sp with our schedule) and a lot of illnesses. I plan to do some "clean up" when we get back from our winter holiday.

[SupermansMama]

this probably isnt the post to say this in but here goes...
that site lovedtodeath cited "wakeful 4 month olds" contains an article which is interesting yet very offensive to bottle feeding families. I BF until 2 months and now we are bottle feeding and we do so in the most loving and quiet way possible.  I, and probably most in this BW forum, do not prop the bottle up to leave the baby alone to amuse themselves, nor has the bottle ever been near my los crib.  An article that creates such a biased towards BFing should be read with caution in all respects.

Now back to Noah's Moms questions... we too have a large 5 month old who is on 3 solid meals per day along with 5 bottles.  He sleeps great at night 7-7, went through that so-called 4 month old NW stage while he was starting a bout of teething at the SAME time (alas no tooth yet though).  When he woke we never fed him (as Tracy recommends) but instead added more feeds during the day rather than upping the bottles an ounce or two since he's a spitter and we'd rather do more feeds with less per bottle.  The stage lasted maybe a couple weeks and now we're back 7-7.  As for the amount of solids he eats, I offer him 3-4 ice cubes per meal which is alot (prob almost 8 tbsp) and sometimes he eats it all up!  He still drinks 4 6oz and one 9oz bottles per day (thats 35oz!!! where I've read in some resources that 32oz is the maximum an lo would eat) and is developing great.  This is a case where offering more milk and less solids would not work.  Can you imagine if my lo who eats that much solids and over 30oz of milk already would have to consume in milk alone if I cut back on his solids???
I was worried about the amount he's eating too and I posted about it in the bottlefeeding forum
downing 9 oz post in bottle feeding

At the time he was drinking the full 9 oz at each feeding but spitting most of it up.  He is well over 17 lbs and most people think he's 7 months old.  Since he eats a wide variety of foods I don't worry about the slight decrease in milk consumption, which has been controlled by me, not him if I gave him more he'd eat more but spit it up, I have conclued that his body simply doesnt need the extra milk.  Also, the high amounts of iron in today's formula causes him to have quite hard poops as has long before the introduction of solids.  I find on the days where he eats more solids and less milk he actually poops better because the iron he receives is from natural sources like sweet potatoes and not from the formula (which is not as readily absorbed). 

My advice is if he wants more solids offer him more and as long as he still BFs fine meaning he takes it every time its offered (time per boob might decrease since he's a more efficient sucker now so its not good to judge by that) then don't worry.  If a baby (big or small) is enjoying solids and its agreeing with their belly fine and they're eating milk fine then why not allow them to progress.  Like lovedtodeath says, Tracy says to be flexible and like she mentioned in her chapter on EEASY (elimination training) she wouldnt hold back a baby who shows signs of being ready for toliet training just because they aren't 1 year old.  Why would we make our los wait until some age carved in stone to introduce more solids to them?

can't wait to hear your comments on this one ladies ! 

[lovedtodeath]

I am sorry about the offensive things in the article. It has been a while since I actually read it and I forgot. It is all too easy for some to sit in judgement. We are starting 2 bottles per day next week, and if I worked I would not be pumping, I can tell you that. Though many can still breastfeed only twice a day for years, and I intend to breastfeed at least some for 2 years as recommended by the WHO. Obviously, bottlefeeding babywhisperers do not do such things!

But the main point of the article still applies. You can move the bottle with the baby when they look around or watch something, and baby gets milk immediately with a bottle, thus finishing a meal faster. With breastfeeding, you have to wait for letdown which can take 1-3 minutes. And if baby is like mine, as soon as the milk starts flowing they are busy smiling at the cat or seeing what that noise was. Baby is too distracted to eat, and there is no way for mom to know baby only got half an ounce at that feeding.

There are other differences between bottle feeding and breastfeeding. Breastfed babies need the same amount of milk when they weigh 7 pounds, or 27 pounds. Breastmilk becomes more concentrated yet perfectly digestible with no waste. Some breastfed babies only have a dirty diaper once every 10 days and that is perfectly healthy because they are simply utilizing all that they get. So your case of 35 oz of milk simply does not happen with a breastfed baby. Cluster feeding is needed for a breastfed baby. The amount of nursings in a 24 hour period are not to be reduced until baby is 9-10 months old. Until then, if they move to a 4 hour EASY, they are to have periods when they are fed only 1-2 hours apart so they continue to receive 7 feedings a day. There are also times when a breastfed baby needs to suckle frequently and for longer periods of time in order to build supply for a few days of a growthspurt.

As far as giving more solids at a magical age....yes, that is exactly what the following organizations recommend. Nothing but breastmilk for the first six months.
World Health Organization, UNICEF, US Department of Health & Human Services, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Dietetic Association, Australian National Health and Medical Research Council, Royal Australian College of General Practitioners, Health Canada

I can understand starting solids early, as my Exclusively breastfed baby was 19 lbs at 3 and a half months and 24 pounds at 5 months. I tried to convine everyone that I should start solids and that is why I am familiar with all of the research. Another thing to keep in mind...Tracy only breastfed fir a few weeks and when she wrote the book, the new research recommending exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months was not available, so she would be unfamiliar with Exclusive breastfeeding a large baby past 4-5 month growth.

In breastfeeding, giving baby too many solids will decrease mom's supply! I can understand the need for solids and the quantities in the above mentioned bottle fed baby, but a breastfeeding mom needs to be careful.
"Delaying solids helps mom to maintain her milk supply. Studies have shown that for a young baby solids replace milk in a baby's diet - they do not add to baby's total intake. The more solids that baby eats, the less milk he takes from mom, and less milk taken from mom means less milk production. Babies who eat lots of solids or who start solids early tend to wean prematurely. " Why delay solids? This link has many more links to other doctors and organizations including research studies as to when to introduce solids and how much. HTH

I do not want to sound arguementative, I just want to present the facts. If someone has already started solids and mom's supply and baby's health is doing fine, I see no reason to discontinue, but I certainly would not increase solids. Baby probably isn't nursing enough, or mommy's supply is down if it seems they need more. I would recommend pumping once or twice a day to boost supply and keep track of quantity baby is eating, make sure to include cluster feeds, and if more supplementation is needed, I would use formula instead of solids.

[lovedtodeath]

WHO breastfeeding complementary nutrition guidelines
"With the sample diets shown in the document Complementary feeding: family foods for breastfed children (WHO, 2000), which have a composite energy density ranging from 1.07 to 1.46 kcal/g, the approximate quantity of complementary
foods that would meet the energy needs described above is 137-187 g/d at 6-8 months, 206-281 g/d at 9-11 months, and 378-515 g/d at 12-23 months."

[zed]

Superman's Mama, are you trying to start a debate??? It kinda sounds like from the general tone I hear from your post.   I am sorry that you felt offended by one of the pages.  Just b/c a site says it, doesn't make it true. In this case, (propping up bottles etc.) that would be someones belief.  When I read stuff like that, I skim over it and take it with a grain of salt.  I know plenty of formula fed babies that have as strong if not stronger bonds with parents for the exact opposite reasons you were offended.  I am sure your kids are probably in this group. 

Great, happy for you, if your very large LO can eat all of that and still have all his formula too.  The reason I would suggest to hold off on the quantity and to introduce solids slowly is primarily for allergies later in life. 

I also know from experience, even though a LO appears to be able to digest the food that doesn't always make it so.  This might be why your LO has softer BM's with more solids.  The food acts like a bull dozer and pushes things through faster.  Just b/c they appear to be doing well doesn't mean that it is digested well enough to get the nutrients out of the food.  (The bull dozer idea was how my Dr. explained this to me same thing to me when I had my first.)

Here in Canada, there have been new reports about introducting solid foods and the risk of allergies.  On my DH side of the family, there are so many allergies to food you can't even make a meal that everyone can eat!  So, an error on the side of caution, is common sense to me. 
(if not a no brainer.) 

The original post was about a baby who is only 4.5 months old.  Why take any unnecessary risks?  When my Kids were around 7 or 8 months old I did let them decide how much solid foods they wanted b/c I felt they were ready in all aspects.  However, I made sure they had at least half a feed of BM or formula about 1 hour before so they would only take what they needed instead of eating until they got sick b/c they liked the food so much.

I will say it again, it is up to a parent to make the right choices for their child/family.  As parents it is our job to gather all of the science and credible information, process it, and finally decide what is right for your unique situation.  It is not my job to question or belittle anyone for their choices.  It is not my place.  Once again, I am only stating what I believe and what has worked for me.  What works for me, will not work for everyone or family.