Pls Hlp, 15 month old sleep issues....last effort before I give up

[newmom7]

Well, I've been on the boards since my son was 7 months and was first bw sleep trained. It has not been smooth sailing....lots of issues on and off since then. My ds just turned 15 months and for the last month or so his sleep and routine have been very off. Yes he's teething, just learned to walk, etc. and is a spirited child with a bit of touchy and maybe grumpy, but mostly spirited. It has been very challenging raising him thus far....

Anyhow, my son has still been on 2 naps and was always and still is an early riser. (anywhere from 5a.m. to 6a.m. and is very inconsistent. Yesterday he slept until 6:30!) Anyway, all the bw advice has not worked as far as how to fix early wakes and go to 1 nap. I have NEVER been able to fix the early wakes. As far as the nap refusals all over the place, I have tried limiting his a.m. nap time and adjusting A times....some of these things worked at earlier ages, but not now. I have also tried early bedtimes to fix OT but that doesn't work as it now results in an earlier wake up time. (so much for making up sleep)

The latest dilemma besides inconsistent wake ups and naps, is now whenever I put him down, he cries/fusses/talks/plays for 45 minutes to 1 hour before going to sleep before ALL naps and bedtime. I have tried adjusting A times (both earlier and later) but it doesn't matter, he still does it. He is on meds for reflux (mostly under control) and motrin for teething when needed. Anyhow, I really am about to give up. My son is SO cranky, and honestly I can't take much more fussing crying every day before sleep periods. I don't let him cry it out so to speak, but I do let him mantra cry for a long time since he only cries on and off. I do respond when he sounds really upset but with minimal interaction. I have tried gradual withdrawal (did this early on) but now it results in giant tantrums if I am in the room, so I don't stay anymore. (not to mention I can't take the crying when I am in the room any longer.) Anyhow, none of the BW advice works for me anymore, and I am really ready to quit. I just need to hear from ANYONE else who can relate to this. I guess there is no fix, but I am desperate for any ideas at this point. The other alternative is to get my son up and let him run the show until he just falls asleep in his tracks (for naps). I am frankly tired of trying to implement a routine that my son is clearly not happy with, no matter how I tweak it. Please help...my husband does not lend any opinions or support. He thinks we just have to let this problem go and he will grow out of it eventually.

[andibig]

Oh honey
Firstly some (((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))).sounds like you really need them .
I'm pretty sure most mums on here can relate to you. It would be lovely to say we all had dream sleepers but sometimes reality is different and its hard on us as parents to keep our sanity.
I'm lucky now DD is a great sleeper but we have been through practically every sleep problem under the sun -early wakings,short naps,short nights and a period of the most awful night wakings.But I got through it and so can you honey.
Just a few questions if thats OK
Is it possible to have a look at his routine?
What do you do when he wakes early etc?
Have you tried walk in/walk out?
Hope to hear from you soon

[mari]

(((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))

I have been in your shoes and thankfully I didn't give up.  it took a long time but it paid off in the end.  I'm looking forward to seeing your routine and will offer advice if I think it will help.  Please stick with it, as frustrating as it seems, it really is worth it in the end.
Good luck.

[newmom7]

Thanks for the quick replies and encouragement. I really need them!  Anyway, I'll give you an idea of what his routine was before everything started going haywire:

Wake between 5:15 and 5:45 a.m. (sometimes 6 or later if I got lucky but only usually happened if OT or up at night from teething, etc)
Bottle/breakfast/play then down for 1st nap at 9a.m. until about 10:15 or 10:30a.m.
Play/lunch and more play/errands, then down for 2nd nap around 1:30 or 1:45p.m until around 2:45 or 3p.m.
Play/dinner/bath
Bedtime usually 7 or 7:15p.m. (sometimes earlier depending on what time he got up from nap #2 and on how much sleep he got during the day)

When he woke early in the a.m. as a baby (he pretty much always has), I used to try to put him back to sleep doing pu/pd but it never worked so I gave up. I never tried wake to sleep then...maybe I should have but was afraid to.

Around 12 months he started refusing naps here and there...sometimes a.m. sometimes p.m. or would wake even earlier, so to correct various situations I tried the common suggestions. (If he refused the p.m. nap I kept him a.m. nap short... to 1 hour. If he skipped the p.m. nap or took a poor nap at either time or both, I would put him to bed early like 5:15 or 5:30p.m. and he USED to sleep through until 5 or 5:30a.m. the next day. This system worked for awhile and he got back to his 2 naps and typical early wakings with a few really early days probably motivated by OT and/or teething. He has had a few NW all along but usually I am able to get him back to sleep each time. It was ok for awhile and then deteriorated.

To answer your questions, I did try walk in walk out and gradual withdrawal at different times both for nap and bedtime. From 12 months when the trouble started with resisting sleep and he got really upset (past mantra cry) I tried walk in walk out at first, but our son is spirited and it seemed to upset him more or confuse him to keep seeing me come and go, so I tried staying in the room until he fell asleep and ignoring him with plans to gradually move toward the door each day like I did with pu/pd when he was 7-8 months, and it did work for awhile. Sometimes it only took 2 days to fix so I never made it out of the room and then if he regressed I was back at square 1. Anyway, it did work better for NW or bedtime resistance but never very well for naps. Over the past 3 months I have not needed to be in the room to do gradual withdrawal (he hasn't gotten that upset..now when he cries it is more like he is throwing a tantrum and trying to climb out of his crib or just taking FOREVER to go to sleep) so now I just stay out of the room and am back to walking in and out again, but only when he is really upset or tosses his lovey blankets/toys out of his crib and is crying for them. That has become sort of a game-sometimes he tosses them back out before I leave the room but I just put them back in and leave with no eye contact or anything. Sometimes it does the trick and he eventually goes to sleep. If he needs a bit of comfort I will sometimes pick him up, but this is RARE. Usually only when he is sick/teething or just hysterical for some reason then I put him back down after putting on his music box.

As for his "current" routine, as I said, for the past month his routine has been ALL over the place. There has been no consistent pattern so although I would love to show you 1 routine, I can't really, but I will give you a few scenarios I have had recently.

A few times he woke up at like 4:00 a.m. fussing, mantra crying or talking and at 5:15 with no sign of going back to sleep I went in, changed his diaper in his crib, gave him a small drink of milk and put him back to bed after a quick wind down. One time specifically he went back to sleep until around 7a.m. That time he didn't nap until around 10:30 and slept almost 2 hours but then refused a p.m. nap so he was to bed early. This pattern went on for a few days but his wake up time went back to around 6 and his 1 nap kept getting shorter until he only took one 45 minute nap and was so OT and cranky it was ridiculous. I think he went back to his 2 naps a few times after that, but 1 day after getting up at 5:15a.m. he was back down by 8:30a.m. for nap 1 and took an ok afternoon nap with a normal bedtime. So it is different every day. Today our schedule was this:

Last night bed at 7:30p.m. talked to himself until 8:30 p.m. and went to sleep
1 NW at 1:45a.m. back down by 2a.m.
Wake 5:30a.m.
Nap 9:00a.m. had tired signs...talked/cried and fussed until fell asleep 9:30a.m. until 11:45a.m.
I let him sleep as LONG as he wanted since waking him early from nap 1 hasn't worked plus, last night he only ended up getting 9 hours of sleep total (he usually at least sleeps 10-11 hours at night)
Attempted nap #2 at 3:20p.m., fell asleep at 3:45p.m. and I woke him at 4:20p.m. Just wanted to give him a "cat nap" so he could make it until reg bedtime
Bedtime at 7:30p.m. in there babbling still at 8p.m. all is quiet at 8:10p.m.

So there you have it. I guess the typical 2 to 1 nap woes? i don't know. The past several days it seems although he is waking up early his whole day is shifting forward....and nap #2 is probably too late in the day, but he can't seem to make it without it. 
 
It did help that I read some of the 2-1 nap thread and it sounded like alot of other babies were all over the map too and their Mom's felt just as confused and frustrated as me, so it did help to know I am not alone. Still, none of my friends have dealt with this with their kids so it does make me wonder if I am forcing this. Anyway, any comments are SO welcome. I appreciate your feedback. SORRY this is SO LONG! Thanks a million for your support.

[newmom7]

Ok, here is a quick update....  My son went to sleep by 8:10p.m. last night and cried out at 10:45p.m. and again around 3:45 a.m. but I didn't have to respond, he put himself back to sleep right away. Then he woke up for the day at 5:15a.m. talking to himself and doing this kind of frustrated yelling that he does. I ignored him to see if he would go back to sleep since he wasn't really crying. He did get quiet for about 15 minutes but I don't think he ever went back to sleep. My dh was up getting ready for work and unfortunately b/c our house is small the bathroom shares a wall with ds' bedroom so you can hear the pipes, etc.  I got ds from his crib at 5:50a.m. and put him back down for nap at 9:05a.m. (since he had been up since 5:15) He fell asleep by 9:15 a.m. and is sleeping for 15 min now. That went MUCH better but still he only slept 9 hours last night.

So I am puzzled but going with the flow today. I guess my problem is I am expecting him to fit into some kind of pattern and maybe he wont for a long time.

[mari]

Well done!
I think that the key here is to not panic, and that's what you seemed to do.  You allowed him to settle himself and that's what he needs to learn.  The rest will fall into place.

For instance.  Alex was a nightmare sleeper, she would wake, I was desperate for rest so I gave her milk, then I would give her milk to fall asleep.  Therefore, she never learned how to settle herself so we had lots of nightwakings and early mornings.
After the sleep training, she is now a good sleeper.  She occasionally wakes, but she settles herself, I don't panic because I know that she is capable.

Keep up the good work, as I said, things will fall into place when you calmly ease the routine when he learns to settle himself

[newmom7]

Well the rest of the day went as follows: 2 1/4 hour nap in a.m. again until 11:30a.m. (i know its long but he again only slept 9 hours last night) then I gave him a catnap of 45 minutes from 3:30p.m. to 4:15p.m. I think the nap was way too late though....he talked in his crib for at least an hour at bedtime maybe more (don't know i left and dh stayed home). He seemed really tired so I put him to bed by 7:15 (usually 15-30 min later). Anyhow who knows. Yes, I try not to panic, but what happens is that things go REALLY BAD for like a month straight and I finally let it all out after keeping most of the frustration in. This has been a LONG process. I wouldn't mind about sleep if my poor son wasn't so miserable and cranky when he misses it.

[Katet]

I'm actually not surprised that you are only getting about 9 hours at night, one thing I have noticed with both my children when they are on the cusp of dropping a nap is the night sleep drops right back & if I try to get the longer A time to get them to drop the nap things get worse overtired cycle etc. Both of mine are now dropping daytime nap one at 4yo other 2.5yo...the 4yo is spirited & was 21months when he moved to 1 nap/day. So we tend to do a nap one day & not the next.
It sounds like his first nap is his better one & it is lengthening, so I'd try delaying it say 10mins with quiet stories & cuddles & push it gradually closer to say when you can drop the aftenoon nap & then have a super early bedtime.
One thing that REALLY helped me with transitions was to know the average hours my children can stay awake, eg when my youngest was moving from 2 to 1 nap, he would be able to cope with a total of  less than 11 hours awake time, so if he woke at 6am slept for 1 hour then he needed to be in bed asleep before 6pm, but on a day he did 2 naps if he woke at 6am did 2 x 1hour naps then he wouldn't be ready for sleep until around 8pm, as he could do a combined 11hours A time on 1nap, but a total of 12 hours A for 2 naps. So it kind of became a mathmatical game working out when to have bedtime. The other thing was on days when there was one short nap (quite normal in the early days moving to 1 nap) We'd do some pretty low key things in the afternoon eg walks in the stroller, stories & long bathtime.