Getting desperate....please help!

[k_mac]

Hi!

My name is Kate and I have two sons - 1 is nearly 2 and the other is 16 weeks today. Both have been terrible sleepers and I really need help with Sam our baby now. My DH and I are so tierd and I'm now getting sick, so I'm keen for any help and advice.

Even though I was so aware of sleep problems from my oldest son I have somehow ended up in the same mess I did with him. I have been aware of EASY since Sam was a few weeks old and have been striving towards having him in an EASY routine, but haven't had too much luck.

I have been BF him every three hours and sometimes it's hard to stretch him even that far. He is gaining weight properly so I know he is getting enough.

Here is what my day mostly looks like:
E: 6:30am
A:
S: Usually is back asleep by about 8:15 after prob 20 mins of rocking till nearly asleep (problem 1!)
    He'll only ever sleep for 30 mins - so much so you could set your clock by him. (Problem 2!) I have tried resettling him in his cot and he doesn't respond quickly or at all and his crying just will escalate - I can't afford to be in his room for all that time and not watching my toddler.

E: 9:30am
A:
S: 11ish - only 30 mins

E: 12 midday - I have to feed him just before giving lunch to my toddler so that they can both have a sleep together - well thats the aim anyway!
A:
S: 1pm - 30 mins

E: 3pm
A:
S: 4:30 - 30 mins

E: 6pm (one side - this night time routine was suggested by a friend who is a lactation consultant)
A: Bath with brother
E: 7ish (other side - although usually will take something from both)
S: We try from the end of the feed but often he won't settle down to sleep until 8:30pm

From then he'll usually wake around 10 and after that he still wakes up a number of times through the night. The last four nights have been horrendous and he has been waking every hour and I've had to sit up in bed holding him so that he'll sleep and so I can get some sort of sleep. He won't even let me lie him down in bed next to me - which I have done quite often, again in self preservation so I can get some sleep to cope with the next day.

I feel so frustrated that I've ended up in this position again after the terrible time we had with our first son. I should know something about helping babies to sleep, but here we are struggling again. I really need some help to sort us out again!

I look forward to any advice you can think of!
Thanks so much in advance!
Kate

[Bryony]

HI Kate and welcome to the BW boards!

I think the key issue is that your son is overtired (OT) - which is a common cause of NW, esp when they happen every sleep cycle (every hour or two - as you describe). 

Waking 30 mins into each nap is the classic sign of being OT, or overstimulated, or both - but usually OT. I know it must be really hard to get him down for naps etc when you also have a toddler running around - heavens it's difficult enough with one - but I wonder if they key would be getting him down for each nap a bit earlier. The usual A time for a 4 month old is 2hrs - but LOs do vary, and you would want this to be a lot less after a short nap of 30 mins rather than a longer nap (eg 1.5hrs). It would seem as though at least some of your LO's awake (A) times are a lot longer than this - esp the ones in the afternoon.

So I think getting him down for naps a lot earlier (and fitting in an extra nap if needed) and an earlier bedtime would be the way to go.

Now can he get to sleep at all without your help? If not this is the other issue we need to think about. He needs to be able to get to sleep independently if he's to sleep thorugh the night -  otherwise when he half wakes up every sleep cycle (as we all do) he's not going to be able to get back to sleep on his own.  So you would need to either gradually reduce the amount of help you give him, or if you think he can handle it, go cold turkey with sleep training and go for PU/PD - which is recommended for 4 months and above - although some quite sensitive babes can't handle it till they are a bit older.

What personality type is your son?

hope that gives you a few things to think about - I am sure we can work this thorugh !

Bryony
x

[k_mac]

Thanks so much Bryony!

I have been wondering about him being overtierd and had planned this week to have my toddler looked after so I could concentrate on helping Sam to catch up on sleep. Thats kinda gone out the window now though, especially as I've just come down with a cold.
To get over the OT does this have to be more 30 mins cycles in his cot or should I do whatever I can to give him some longer sleeps - like holding him etc?

I think that Sam is touchy/spirited type - more the touchy though! My toddler is well and truly spirited!

Sam can't settle himself independently and I know this is a problem that I need to work on, but I feel overwhelmed trying to think where to start. Any suggestions?! We have two weeks school hols coming up here in Australia in a week and my husband (who is a teacher) will be home with me so we are planning on giving things a real go for two weeks and seeing if we can help Sam.

Thanks again for your advice!
Kate 

[MMK529]

I'm working on this same problem with my 3 1/2 month old DD.  We're shortening her awake times and it seems to be helping.  We're also trying nap extension.  The only way I used to be able to extend her naps was for her to nurse and Bryony warned me that could become a prop, which I want to avoid!  Todoay I extended her nap by simply going to her crib and putting my hand on her chest and kind of shaking her back and forth and she slept for an hour and a half. That hasn't happened for us in WEEKS!  Small successes.  I'm also trying to move her bedtime up.  She used to take a bath at 7 and go to bed at 7:30, but like yours she wouldn't really be asleep until like 8:30.  So I am trying to give her a bath at 6:30 for a few days, and then 6.  I've read babies this age (until aout 6 months) should be in bed at 7 and you can get it closer to 8 at 6 months.  Good luck, and know I'm struggeling right along with you.  I feel like I'm making baby steps in progress and I hope you are too.  Just remember nothing will change overnight, and it's going to take a lot of hard work and dedication, but it will be worth it!

[k_mac]

Thanks so much MMK529, it so nice to have your support and to know I'm not alone going through this world of sleep problems!

Today I have been trying to catch him up on some sleep and have been helping him back to sleep within an hour of him waking after the first 30min sleep just to see if that helps him. The first time this morning it took me 45 mins before he was back asleep for another 30 mins. The next sleep was not so long for him to get back down again, and now he has been asleep for over 2 hours in my friends arms (not ideal I know, but given I'm feeling so sick today it's a nice chance for me to catch up on some sleep )

Tonight we'll also try starting the bedtime routine a bit earlier. I find it a bit tricky cause we like to eat with our toddler and both the boys bath together, mostly with Dad, and then ideally go down together for the night. So I'm not sure how to juggle the routine so things can still happen as a family together.

I hope you have a successful sleep day with your DD MMK529!
I'll be back in later to keep you posted!

[k_mac]

I forgot to ask one question! Blow my foggy brain!

If DS is 16 weeks how often should I be aiming for feeding him? I tend to feed about 3 hours at the moment, should I be starting to lengthen this?
What happens when he wakes from his short sleeps and there is only a short time left before his feed, but too long to leave him up for waiting - do I push back his feed and try for another short sleep?

Ta!

[Bryony]

If DS is 16 weeks how often should I be aiming for feeding him? I tend to feed about 3 hours at the moment, should I be starting to lengthen this?
What happens when he wakes from his short sleeps and there is only a short time left before his feed, but too long to leave him up for waiting - do I push back his feed and try for another short sleep?

At 16 weeks you can be working towards 4 hourly feeding - do you think he's ready for that?

have you got the Baby Whisperer books?  Tracy recommended moving to a 4 hourly EASY at 4 months - although this is based on going 2hrs A time between sleeps, which your LO will not manage after only a 30 min nap - so it will need some juggling. I would try and move towwards 4 hourly feeding though so that he takes a good feed in each time.

With the short naps - it's a judgemtn call - if you think he's hungry then he's not going to go back to sleep so maybe do low key A time until the time of the next feed, then feed him - if he seems more tired than hungry try for more sleep and feed later

xx

[MMK529]

I get what you mean about juggeling the ENTIRE family routine just to accommodate your DS, but I think if you do some accommodations now, you can slowly push bedtime back (in like 20 minute intervals) once your DS gets the idea.  You just want to avoid the OT!  I'm really confused because my DD has been going to bed and falling asleep without much assistance, but is constantly waking up within the hour and the ONLY way I can get her to go back to sleep is by nursing her.  It's weird, and I don't want the nursing to become a prop.  I know how frustrated you must be feeling right now.  I hope you're not sick anymore!  Let us know how the earlier bedtime went!!!