Totally Confused!!!

[MMK529]

I've put a post up in NWings before, but we seem to have a new problem, so I'm making a new post.  DD is 5 months old and still we don't have much of a schedule because she won't sleep for more than 45 minutes at nap time.  Even with nap extension, there is no success.  I feed every 3-4 hours, but we recently went to the dr. and were told DD isn't getting enough milk from me so we're supplimenting with formula at the end of feedings.  The dr. said she thought that was why we were having so many NWings, but that doesn't seem to be it.  DD is on medicine for reflux as well.  DD won't take the bottle so we feed her the formula through a medicine dropper.  DD goes to bed between 7:30-8:15 and is awake between 7:45-8:15 each morning.  SHe can't make it past the 2 hour mark, and for the past few nights has been waking up every two hours, almost to the minute.  I feed her, and shush/pat her back to sleep.  She sleeps in her own crib.  For every nap and for bedtime we put her in her crib wide awake and shush/pat her to sleep and it only takes  about 3 minutes, but I continue to shush/pat for 7-10 minutes.  She hardly fusses, and goes right to sleep.  She goes down amazingly well, but she won't stay asleep.  Do you think she's waking up to nurse because she's hungry?  Or is she waking to nurse because that is an old habit that is coming back?  Any thoughts?  Is this maybe a prop issue?  I don't ever nurse her to sleep anymore, but old habits die hard, but it has been WEEKS since she has nursed to sleep.  I'm really confused.  Any thoughts, ideas, would be great!!!! THANKS!!!!

[*Nicola*]

Hiya

Big (((Hugs)))

Has she only recently began to wake up repeatedly at night?  Anything new going on since she started this? Could the formula be upsetting her tummy etc?

I have a few thoughts:

1) I think it is important that you address the issue of possible hunger since there is the issue of milk supply but tbh I would suspect that at 5 months she isn't hungry every 2 hours particularly every 2 hours exactly, kwim?  So when she wakes every 2 hours does she take a 'good' feed or is she just having a small drink, having some comfort and falling back asleep. My worry would be that she is just taking small snacks and that this might be giving you a secondary problem of her snacking at night rather than taking just 1 or 2 good night feeds. 

I'm going to ask a BFing mod to have a look in here and see if they can offer some more advice.

2) Is her reflux well controlled?  If not then it can play havoc with sleep so it might be worth revisiting meds if you feel it  could still be an issue.

3) Waking every 2 hours can often be an indication of a prop issue, so I wondering if she has gotten used to you feeding her and pat/shhing her when she wakes up and now relies on this to get her back to sleep?  What do you think?

Also, if she is able to go to sleep independently I would really encourage you to reduce the amount of time you pat/shh for at naps/bedtime/NW's in order that she learns to fall back asleep without your help. So instead of doing pat/shh for 10 mins you could reduce this to 8 mins, then 5 mins and so on

4) Waking repeatedly after bedtime is typically a sign of OT in a baby, and with constant 45 min  naps then this could be an issue here too.  Are you giving DD extra naps to make up for the short naps that she is having. 

HTH x

[Mum of 3 + 2 stepkids]

Hi MMK529,

With respect to the bf/formula feeds is this something you want to continue with or would you like to get back to EBFing? If so its totally possible I've had lots of supply issues and i am still bfing and we are nearly at a yr.

One thing to point out is that at 5mths im not sure if you know or not but this is 'BIG' GS (growth sput) for me it lasted ages. If you think your supply is low then you could try what i did and that was to do EAEAS over a 3hr routine

example:
8am bf
A
9.30 bf
A (not much)
S
11am bf (if still awake leave to wake and then start again)

I did this for about 5 days and then got back to a good 3hr routine That week at weigh in my lo gained 8oz. Once you are happy with supply and gain is good then you can eliminate milk intake from your list.

The more feeds you get in in the day the less your lo should need in the night, but you may find that if this is a GS then you will need to feed in the night until your supply has upped.

This might not be what the cause of your lo's nwing's but wanted to add it just in case

HTH
Kate x

[*Nicola*]

Thanks Kate

[MMK529]

thanks ladies.  I am thinking I am going to start shush/pat for only 5 minutes.  Is the goal to eventually simply put LO's in their crib and then not shush/pat at all, but just let them fall asleep?  Because I can work toward that, and I think she'd do well considering it usually only takes her about 3 minutes to fall asleep now.  It could be a GS, I hadn't really thought about that.  I talked to DH, and I think we're going to stop feeding her in the middle of the night unless it has been at least 4 hours since her last feeding.  We're going to try to comfort her without taking her out of crib, but if we have to, we'll do some PU/PD.  We need to break the habit of feeding and shush/pating every few hours at night.  Last night she actually slept 2 hours 45 minutes at first.  Also, my mom suggested not swaddeling her anymore.  Any thoughts on that?  I really appreciate your time and thoughts!  XOXO

[*Nicola*]

Hi

I am thinking I am going to start shush/pat for only 5 minutes.  Is the goal to eventually simply put LO's in their crib and then not shush/pat at all, but just let them fall asleep?  Because I can work toward that, and I think she'd do well considering it usually only takes her about 3 minutes to fall asleep now. 

Yup, that is absolutely the goal with pat/shh.  You use it to teach baby to go to sleep independently.  Gradually reduce your intervention until you are able to put her down awake and leave her.  You might have to do some sh's from the side of the cot but eventually you will be able to leave her.  This is important for giving her the skills of self settling when she wakes at night

Also, my mom suggested not swaddeling her anymore.  Any thoughts on that?  I really appreciate your time and thoughts!  XOXO

If swaddling is hindering sleep then maybe time to wean it.  Does she break out of swaddle etc.  If she is happy in it and not coming out of it and waking then it's up to you You can always try her without it and see what happens.

I would keep trying to extend those naps though as there is prob some OT going on there.  Have you had support on nap forum?

[MMK529]

Ok so here is a little update. Yesterday DD had an hour and a half nap but it was in the stroller. Oh well, I'll take what I can get. She had a rough night and I've noticed in the middle of the night she won't sleep unless she is nursing. She won't take the pacifier so she pretty much sucks on me all night. It is time to break the habit!  DH is concerned about LO's calorie intake, but I will not let her nurse if she is only snacking or sucking for comfort. Any words of wisdom or advice going into these few sleepless nights that will hopefully lead to STTN!

[*Nicola*]

3) Waking every 2 hours can often be an indication of a prop issue, so I wondering if she has gotten used to you feeding her and pat/shhing her when she wakes up and now relies on this to get her back to sleep?  What do you think?

She had a rough night and I've noticed in the middle of the night she won't sleep unless she is nursing. She won't take the pacifier so she pretty much sucks on me all night. It is time to break the habit!  

There's the culprit then

have you had a look at the Props Forum, there is lots of advice there about stopping the feed/sleep association.

[MMK529]

Hi!  I know it has been a while.  Things have been crazy here.  DD now puts herself to sleep for all naps and bedtime without any help from me.  At naps she usually fusses for about 3 minutes before she's asleep, and at bedtime she really doesn't even fuss, she just goes to sleep.  So that is HUGE and I am so proud of her.  But she's still waking up tons during the night!  Her dr. said to let her cry when she does this and she will put herself back to sleep.  Last night she went to sleep at 7:20 and slept until 10, at which point she woke and cried for 2 minutese, and went back to sleep.  She woke at 11 and cried on and off for almost 20 minutes, but then put herself back to sleep.  When she woke at 12:30 I fed her (we're trying to get down to one night feeding), and put her back to sleep.  She woke again at 3:30 and I fed her again (I know, but I was so tired at that point...), and she slept again until about 7.  Do you think I should let her cry  like the pediatrician recommended?  I mean it isn't a full out cry, more of fussing.  Do you think that will break her habit of waking up every few hours in the night?  She's 5 1/2 months old and totally healthy so the pediatrician said there is no reason why she shouldn't be sleeping through the night.  Any thoughts would be appreciated!  Thanks!

[*Nicola*]

Hiya

Great news on the independent sleep. 

Regarding letting her cry ... I think that letting her fuss/mantra cry is fine as it is part of her learning to get comfy and resettle herself.  It could be that you were rushing in a bit quickly and she is used to you helping her to get resettled.  If she is able to fuss a bit and then resettle without your intervention then this is great and I wouldn't count that as a NW   The more she does it, the better she gets at it and the less she will wake

If she is crying like she needs you or if the cries begin to escalate and don't die back down then it is important you go to her, offer some comfort but then I would withdraw and allow her to self settle as much as possible.

Good luck sounds like you are on the right track xx

[Mum of 3 + 2 stepkids]

Great news well done