9 months old - never slept through - still wakes for milk

[Kelly76]

Hi there

I was wondering if you could have a read of my story and see if there is any advice you can give me.

DS Ollie is coming up to 9 months now and has never slept through - he did get into a nice routine for about a week of sleeping from 7pm until 5am but that is out the window again.

He naps for about 45min-1hr twice a day and goes to bed independently at both naps and bedtime.  He doesn't have a paci - he just never liked them.  I breast fed until 4 weeks ago and he is happily taking 4 bottles a day along with eating very well.  He is a happy and very active little boy, already crawling and pulling up to standing. Problems start at night - he goes down easily at 7pm, if I don't dreamfeed him at 10:30 then he'll be awake by 1am, if I do then he'll go through until between 2-4am when he'll wake.  He won't always cry but he'll stay awake until I give him milk after which he will put himself back to sleep until 6-7am.  If I leave him for too long he'll start to cry and cry...

It's very hard to let him cry it out (he is VERY loud) as I have a 3 year old who herself is quite a poor sleeper and he will often wake her and then I have two to deal with! 

Any advice?  Should I be dreamfeeding him?  Surely he doesn't need the extra milk (he probably has 30floz in 24 hours including his night feeds!!)  Any help much appreciated.  Am I just destined for bad sleepers?

Thanks for reading

Kelly
dd - born 9th Nov 04
ds - born 10th Nov 07

[Angela and Victoria]

hello Kelly 76

First let me share with you something funny relate to the NWs :
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=78468.0

Seriously now, maybe the following from the  Night Wakings FAQs will help:
FAQ: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=88.0

I found that the:
-How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old
-Another reason (other than hunger) night wakings can occur
-Gentle Removal Plan
 are very interesting to read.

Good luck and keep us posted

[*Nicola*]

Kelly can you post your routine in EAS format for us please

What have you tried to resettle him at NW's?  Water, pat/shh, PU/PD?

[Kelly76]

Routine:

7am wake, breakfast

9:30-10 Milk and nap

11 wake

11:30 - 12 lunch

2:30 milk and nap

3:30 wake and snack (fruit etc)

5 - 5:30 dinner

6pm - bath and wind down

7pm milk and bed

He'll then have a dreamfeed at 10:30 or he wakes at 12-1am.  Wakes anything between 2am-4am and has 6oz milk, goes back to sleep until 6:30 - 7am.

I've tried water, ignoring him (to certain extent), pat/shushing, cuddle until calm then back in cot.

There was some good advice in the FAQs about weaning off night feeds by replacing milk with water gradually over 10 nights which I am going to try.  Do you think I should still dreamfeed with this plan - and should I mix this feed with water?  Sorry for all q's!!

Thanks for the replies.  You're all such a help!

K x

[*Nicola*]

Thanks for posting that

Couple of thoughts:

1) From your routine it looks like you do solids and then milk at all feeds.  Is that correct?  Until the age of 1 babymilk is the main source of nutrition for your baby - it is jam packed with calories and fills them up much, much more than the solids they eat.  I wonder if he is filling up slightly on solids and therefore doesn't need quite as much milk.  If he was even to have an oz more in each day bottle, that is giving him half of his night feed during the day Just something for you to consider.

2) It certainly looks like he has a 'learned hunger' at night time.  DD2 was exactly the same, and we just weaned night feeds a couple of months back (she is 9.5 months now).  So basically, they learn to be hungry overnight and so keep a 'space' for that feed.  Until they take those calories during the day they don't stop the night feeding, but they won't take them during the day until they have stopped eating them at night.  Bit chicken and egg

Offering diluted feeds helps babies to gradually start to take the night calories during the day, thereby eliminating the need for the night feed.  We used this method with great success.  For the first 3 nights we offered the full amount of water (7oz in our case) but only gave 6oz of formula, next 3 nights 7oz water and 5oz formula and so on.  I think she still drained the bottles until we got down to 3oz of formula and then she began to refuse or only drink a bit.  At the same time the day bottles got better.  The FAQ gives all of the info you need.  If you want I can also post a link to our journey

3) DF ... most LO's stop the dreamfeed somewhere around 7/8 months as it can begin to interupt sleep so it would probably be a good idea to get rid of it now or soon.  If you don't offer DF and then feed at 1am when he wakes does he go straight through until morning?  If so, I would just stop DF now otherwise you will have to wean that once the nightfeed is gone. 

DD would do exactly the same as your LO with DF/no DF so we stopped DF, started to dilute feeds and only offered water and resettled at any wakings after the night feed.

HTH xx

[jellybabe]

Maybe coz you just recently stopped b/feeding, its more of a comfort thing rather than a hunger thing? My ds also still woke for a bottle at that age, and i would find he doenst really drink it just guzzles a little and falls asleep but as soon as i take it away, he'd wake up and cry again.

[monicasayad]

hi kelly.  my little one has the exact same story.  he is 8 months old (just) and is a joy to be around.  really active and crawling/standing all day.  has 2 naps, around 9.30am and 2.30 pm.  usually lasts anywhere from 30 minutes to 120 minutes.  sleeps at 7pm, needs a sleep feed at 11 and then is awake again at 1am for a feed and then again at 3am and then at 6am......

[Tamara]

Same sort of thing here, very nearly 8 months too, but so NOT active lol Does nothing but sit and stretch 

About a month ago we reasoned that he really didn't need that feed at 4/5am after 4 bf in the day, 3x solids, a feed before I went to bed (not a DF as he always woke for it) and a 1/2am feed, so after the 1/2am feed, I sent DH in to resettle him (figuring it would be cruel/confusing if I went in, getting his hopes up for a feed) and tbh, it was easier than we thought.  He resettled ok - took some time sometimes, but no crying.  If he'd have got very upset, I don't think we'd have persevered and I'd have fed him (but I'm a soft touch  )

We kept everything else the same - just concentrated on dropping this one feed to start with. 

In the last week, he has twice slept 12 hours with only 1 wake up for a feed around 12-1am, so we're sort of slowly getting there.

He still wakes at about 5am some days though despite not having had a feed at that time for weeks now, so dropping feeds may not be the magic solution you hope, but worth a go?

[asha]

Same story here - my dd turns 8 mo tomorrow.  She has 3 good solid meals during day and bf 3 times as well.  on top of that she will wake up before midnight if I don't do a df at 11 pm.  She then wakes up at any time between 3 and 4 am for a feed.  If she wakes earlier and we resettle her without feeding she will wake up an hour later to be fed.  She also has 2 good naps of 1-2 hours. 

The worst bit is she used to sleep from 11 pm to 5-6 am before she got to 6 mo and then I think as she was getting hungry she started waking early> I had hoped starting solids would help but looks like this habit is hard to break!

She is refusing the bottle/sippee cup/beaker so is still bf so cannot try the water dilution trick.  She also only takes about 3-4 mins on each side so not much point in cutting down time.  Any suggestions welcome!

[jellybabe]

I got that now too lol. But dd is 7mths and have started solids with little success, she's not too keen on it. So she's hungry at nights. Days that she eats solids, she'll deffo sleep better at night where as if not, she wakes for bottle. She's just a bit fussy with solids, but I am sure once she has it 3 times a day, she'll sleep much better.

[Tobysmum]

We have / had exactly the same thing - Gus was waking twice per night to feed.  For the past 2 nights he's slept through from 6.30/6.45 until 5.30am (yesterday he didn't go back to sleep after that, but today he did until 6.45am).  I was convinced that he did not need to feed twice in the night - but I knew he was actually hungry because he'd got used to feeding in the night.  Basically, I have really worked on getting more calories into him in the day - I really persevered with the daytime feeds (he gets VERY distracted and will tend to snack a bit), and then at night, I offered one side instead of two for the first feed of the night and somehow, it seems to have worked and I'm sure he's taking more in the day now.  For the past 2 nights when he's woken at 5.30am he's only taken one side and then will feed again at about 6.45/7.00am.  I may be even able to cut that one out at some point but I don't think it's unreasonable for him to feed at that time - particularly for a BF baby.  It's only been 2 days of sleeping that long - but it's certainly an improvement and even before that he was definitely taking less at night and more in the day.  I also always offer milk before solids.  Have you been increasing his solids at all in the hope that he'll be full and less hungry at night?  If that's the case, that may be why he's started to take more milk at night - as pp said, milk is higher in calories and probably lower in bulk so can fit more in tummy and will sustain him for longer.  Perhaps try offering milk first so he can fill up on the good stuff before being offered solids.  Solids are just for taste and texture until 1year old, milk is much more important.
You seem to have lots of good ideas of how to cut down on the night feeds. I do think it's a case of reducing it gradually - whether you dilute or offer less etc, is up to you.  Cold turkey is more difficult IMO.  I'm too soft for that!
As you say, it could well be the comfort issue from having stopped BFing.
Let us know how it goes.

[yaya]

Thanks for sharing Tobysmum!

[jellybabe]

Well, DD is now 8mths old and she still wakes too. I think she doesnt get enough calories a day. She also gets VERY distracted during feedings and will have a little bit and then about 1 hour later the rest. She has solids but she's still soo picky and not really interested. So I am not pushing her too much. She has 150ml at a time which is not nearly enough for her age I think most of the time but she's starting to take 180ml  (Opposite to ds that use to eat anything and everything, she's gonna be fussy..urgh) She has her milk when she goes down, at about 8/8:30pm. When we go to bed at 11pm I give her another bottle. Then she'll wake at about 4am for another one. I think I am just going to gradually start reducing the amounts. She sleeps after I give it to her so she might be ok with a little less (like not notice)

[Tobysmum]

Gus is now 10 months but I remember at around 7, 8 months he used to get VERY distracted and I remember posting about it.  He was basically not having proper feeds in the day and as pp described, would have a bit and then a bit more an hour later etc and it drove me crazy.  He would then make up for it at night.  I do also think that it coincided slightly with offering solids, in that I probably offered too much to start with.  Gradually though, he has started to take proper feeds in the day - he seems to get less distracted now he's a bit older.  If he's not very hungry though and I try and feed him, he's very easily distracted.  One thing that I've recently got, which I wish I'd had from the beginning is a "nursing necklace" - it's great.  Mine has little bells on it that jingle when he plays with the necklace around my neck.  Mine cost about $20 but you may well be able to pick them up cheaper than that on ebay or something.  They look pretty too!

For the past 2 days I have actually increased the amount of solids I've been giving him, because I honestly don't think he was getting enough calories in the day (even with the good milk feeds every 4 hrs) to sustain him at night and that's why he was waking up.  Whilst I am fully aware that babies don't actually "need" solids during the first year (it's just for taste and texture), it's my personal belief that you cannot give a small amount of solids and expect them to sleep through the night without 1-2 feeds.  That's my personal opinion.  By increasing the solids, he hasn't actually cut down on his milk feeds in the day (all BF by the way).  Last night was much better, he only fed once in the night (at 1am), he did wake once more but DH settled him VERY easily and he didn't get up until 7am (and wasn't even crying to be fed then either!)  If you are happy to get up in the night to feed throughout, then that's fine to keep the solids to a minimum!
 
I don't mind feeding once in the night (or even twice at a push!) but more than that is just too exhausting!

The other thing I will say is that yes, if your baby takes full feeds each time he/she wakes - yes they are hungry.  BUT I do think it's a learned thing - if they are being fed in the night when they wake, then there body is going to get used to feeding at that time.  It's either a case of gradually reducing it or cutting it cold turkey and there body will probably get used to it.  It's up to us, which we choose to do.  The gradual thing is probably more for me (and cold turkey if it's been less than 4 hrs since last feed i.e. pu/pd). 

It's probably a combination of making sure they are getting enough milk and solids in the day but also training their bodies to not be as hungry at night and to take those calories in the day.

As someone said to me on another thread, if someone started feeding you in the night, your body would soon learn to expect the calories in the night.

I am in exactly the same boat as I said, I'm just saying what I think in theory!  I am still working on my issues myself.  Last night was much better for us - the PU/PD that DH is doing may well be doing (we've been at it for a week now).  He only fed once in the night (after being up 4-5 times earlier in the week).